Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikisource technical issues (was Community Wishlist Survey: Top 10 wishes!)

2015-12-17 Thread Ilario Valdelli 
The initiative is good also to train the community how to approach the
tools' development.

I think, and this is not a comment for Wikisource for it's a general
comment, that a tool is not a simple piece of software running for a bunch
of things.

The name "tool" is correct because is something available for a use: it can
used or not used.

Instead a "service" is a combination of tools, processes and people.

Good tools are important to build a good service but are not sufficient.

The real problem is that people miss always these three aspects and in
addition there is a wrong approach of programmers to build a tool with a
bad planning and analysis.

Several PM frameworks say that 80% of the time must be dedicated to plan,
because a good planning is mandatory for a good result.

The results of this survey are interesting, but this is a simple
"initiation process", it means that the better evaluation must follow.

So it's correct that a simple tool doesn't solve a problem.

Kind regards



On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Andrea Zanni 
wrote:

> (splitting as per Richard request)
>
> > Question for the Wikisource folks: would Project Grants be a way to get
> > resources for you? If you can design a project and find people with the
> > right skills, that avenue might be beneficial for you. I have a software
> > developer in mind who would probably like to work with you if resources
> are
> > available and a project has the support of the community and WMF.
> >
> > Pine
>
> Hi Pine. My personal answer to your question is: no. Because we've already
> tried that, and we did barely scratch the surface of the issues.
> I'm on mobile and cannot provide you details and references, but in the
> past years we used both IEG and Google Summer of Code for funding
> developers, and we had few successinaddressing main issues. Also, tools
> that worked and were helpful are now abandoned.
> What wikisource lacks is development to core software, not only external,
> cool tools, which are fine but in the end don't really solve problems.
>
> I can elaborate further and bore you with details but, ina nutshell, we
> just need  commitment from people who can bring theirlines ofcode into
> production. As Wikisource is formally a Wikimedia project, and provides its
> tiny contribution to the mission and also to fundraising, I would expect a
> commitment of this sort coming from WMF.
>
> Aubrey
>
>
>
>
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 




-- 
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario 
Skype: valdelli
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli 
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli 
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli 
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikisource technical issues (was Community Wishlist Survey: Top 10 wishes!)

2015-12-17 Thread Quim Gil 
Hi, while I know that this is not the solution to your problems, let me say
that if you want a Wikisource focus area at the Wikimedia Hackathon in
Jerusalem (31 March - 3 April), the time to decide this is now, and the
place is https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T119703


On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Andrea Zanni 
wrote:

> What wikisource lacks is development to core software, not only external,
> cool tools, which are fine but in the end don't really solve problems.
>

Some of the "core software" can be developed with the help of IEGs,
developer outreach programs, and hackathons. These activities are not
reserved for "external, cool tools" only.

One step that could be useful regardless would be to reflect the most
urgent/important "core software" development needs at
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/wikisource/board/ , in epic/task
units, associating the actual projects related to them.


I can elaborate further and bore you with details but, ina nutshell, we
> just need  commitment from people who can bring theirlines ofcode into
> production. As Wikisource is formally a Wikimedia project, and provides its
> tiny contribution to the mission and also to fundraising, I would expect a
> commitment of this sort coming from WMF.
>

I think the WMF would also like to have a clear strategy about the
developer investment required for Wikisource and other projects with
specific needs. In the next months we are going to discuss the Annual Plan
for July 2016-June 2017, and I recommend the Wikisource community to make
their voice heard in that context.

Meanwhile, the tiny and humble Developer Relations team is happy to help
you in the practical and pragmatic ways that we can help you right now.  :)

-- 
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikisource technical issues (was Community Wishlist Survey: Top 10 wishes!)

2015-12-17 Thread Gerard Meijssen 
Hoi,
Indeed :) When an environment does not have proper services set up, when
there is no thought on how the resulting product is to be used, even those
services are of no use.

Wikisource and all its workflows is not the end product for instance. The
end product is for people to read the works that have been so meticulously
and often lovingly been made available. It is sad as it seems that the use
of the end users is never really considered.

Wikipedia has the obvious advantage of instant gratification. You write,
you save and the world can read it. All other projects with the exception
of Wiktionary do not have much in the sense of end user usage consideration.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 17 December 2015 at 10:09, Ilario Valdelli  wrote:

> The initiative is good also to train the community how to approach the
> tools' development.
>
> I think, and this is not a comment for Wikisource for it's a general
> comment, that a tool is not a simple piece of software running for a bunch
> of things.
>
> The name "tool" is correct because is something available for a use: it can
> used or not used.
>
> Instead a "service" is a combination of tools, processes and people.
>
> Good tools are important to build a good service but are not sufficient.
>
> The real problem is that people miss always these three aspects and in
> addition there is a wrong approach of programmers to build a tool with a
> bad planning and analysis.
>
> Several PM frameworks say that 80% of the time must be dedicated to plan,
> because a good planning is mandatory for a good result.
>
> The results of this survey are interesting, but this is a simple
> "initiation process", it means that the better evaluation must follow.
>
> So it's correct that a simple tool doesn't solve a problem.
>
> Kind regards
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Andrea Zanni 
> wrote:
>
> > (splitting as per Richard request)
> >
> > > Question for the Wikisource folks: would Project Grants be a way to get
> > > resources for you? If you can design a project and find people with the
> > > right skills, that avenue might be beneficial for you. I have a
> software
> > > developer in mind who would probably like to work with you if resources
> > are
> > > available and a project has the support of the community and WMF.
> > >
> > > Pine
> >
> > Hi Pine. My personal answer to your question is: no. Because we've
> already
> > tried that, and we did barely scratch the surface of the issues.
> > I'm on mobile and cannot provide you details and references, but in the
> > past years we used both IEG and Google Summer of Code for funding
> > developers, and we had few successinaddressing main issues. Also, tools
> > that worked and were helpful are now abandoned.
> > What wikisource lacks is development to core software, not only external,
> > cool tools, which are fine but in the end don't really solve problems.
> >
> > I can elaborate further and bore you with details but, ina nutshell, we
> > just need  commitment from people who can bring theirlines ofcode into
> > production. As Wikisource is formally a Wikimedia project, and provides
> its
> > tiny contribution to the mission and also to fundraising, I would expect
> a
> > commitment of this sort coming from WMF.
> >
> > Aubrey
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Wikipedia: Ilario 
> Skype: valdelli
> Facebook: Ilario Valdelli 
> Twitter: Ilario Valdelli 
> Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli  >
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list,

[Wikimedia-l] Wikisource technical issues (was Community Wishlist Survey: Top 10 wishes!)

2015-12-16 Thread Andrea Zanni 
(splitting as per Richard request)

> Question for the Wikisource folks: would Project Grants be a way to get
> resources for you? If you can design a project and find people with the
> right skills, that avenue might be beneficial for you. I have a software
> developer in mind who would probably like to work with you if resources
are
> available and a project has the support of the community and WMF.
>
> Pine

Hi Pine. My personal answer to your question is: no. Because we've already
tried that, and we did barely scratch the surface of the issues.
I'm on mobile and cannot provide you details and references, but in the
past years we used both IEG and Google Summer of Code for funding
developers, and we had few successinaddressing main issues. Also, tools
that worked and were helpful are now abandoned.
What wikisource lacks is development to core software, not only external,
cool tools, which are fine but in the end don't really solve problems.

I can elaborate further and bore you with details but, ina nutshell, we
just need  commitment from people who can bring theirlines ofcode into
production. As Wikisource is formally a Wikimedia project, and provides its
tiny contribution to the mission and also to fundraising, I would expect a
commitment of this sort coming from WMF.

Aubrey




> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,