Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Le 2013-06-04 19:25, George Herbert a écrit : On Jun 4, 2013, at 2:24 AM, Mathieu Stumpf psychosl...@culture-libre.org wrote: Isn't it because trademark is based on the completly irrelevant and irrealistic willing to have an unilateral despotic control on some symbol, branded as image protection, using ego/narcissistic fallacies to argue, threat and coercion to impose its observance? What, like how the Foundation trademarks our logos, so that random scammers cannot confuse people into thinking they are looking at a free, open, community site? The Foundation uses Trademark, Linus Torvalds went to some effort to get the Linux trademark as a community intellectual property value, there are numerous examples. As I say there [1], I just don't agree, and it just my opinion. Enough said. [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Trademark_practices_discussion#We_can_go_without_trademark -- Association Culture-Libre http://www.culture-libre.org/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Trademark protection has benefits for both parties, but primarily the consumer. There is little point protecting our neutrality, for example, if our identity can be hijacked to make vested recommendations. On 05/06/2013 15:58, Mathieu Stumpf wrote: Le 2013-06-04 19:25, George Herbert a écrit : On Jun 4, 2013, at 2:24 AM, Mathieu Stumpf etc... ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Just a statement besides all the other issues. I am quite happy about the new vote. I did not like the logo because its very similar to the old Wikitravel-Logo. Gesendet von Windows-Mail Von: Richard Farmbrough Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2013 18:01 An: Wikimedia Mailing List Trademark protection has benefits for both parties, but primarily the consumer. There is little point protecting our neutrality, for example, if our identity can be hijacked to make vested recommendations. On 05/06/2013 15:58, Mathieu Stumpf wrote: Le 2013-06-04 19:25, George Herbert a écrit : On Jun 4, 2013, at 2:24 AM, Mathieu Stumpf etc... ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Peter Southwood, 03/06/2013 19:26: In case anyone was so misguided at to think that I object to WTO protecting their logo per se. That is NOT my point, and never was. My point is that the WTO logo and WV logo are not easily confused. I asked a simple question about what the specifics of the complaint were, which has still not been answered. Instead the query has been brushed under the carpet and a pointless quibbling has ensued. I give up in frustration. Asking a simple question on this list appears to be a complete wate of effort. I'm sorry you feel that way. Trademark similarity is not an exact science and depends on too many factors, so your question was very hard to understand. To me, the two logos look identical, except that our arrows have sharper heads. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikivoyage/Logo_announcement If you don't see the similarity, I suggest you to try and describe the two logos as would be required to register them, to see how hard it is for you to highlight the differences in our logo. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Le 2013-06-04 10:00, Federico Leva (Nemo) a écrit : Peter Southwood, 03/06/2013 19:26: In case anyone was so misguided at to think that I object to WTO protecting their logo per se. That is NOT my point, and never was. My point is that the WTO logo and WV logo are not easily confused. I asked a simple question about what the specifics of the complaint were, which has still not been answered. Instead the query has been brushed under the carpet and a pointless quibbling has ensued. I give up in frustration. Asking a simple question on this list appears to be a complete wate of effort. I'm sorry you feel that way. Trademark similarity is not an exact science Isn't it because trademark is based on the completly irrelevant and irrealistic willing to have an unilateral despotic control on some symbol, branded as image protection, using ego/narcissistic fallacies to argue, threat and coercion to impose its observance? As far as I know, the widest used symbols, like yin and yang, various crosses, the peace symbol[1], etc., have no trademark, and still communicate a clear message. Sure you can have ambiguities with several meaning branded with the same symbol, but this is resolved with context as easily as it is with any homonymous. Of course some people may try to abuse others using well known symbols, but this is not something trademark will prevent efficiently. One may go as far as using a close but not the same symbol, computing how much that may cost to go in court and how much profit this may generate and go with it as long as chances are great to end with a positive financial state through usurpation. You don't protect people and social movements by inforcing brand. Maybe inforcing production standards can help. But definitively what people need is ways to make accurate interpretation by themselves. They don't need to be infantilized with real source of truth that they may blindly trust just because there's some logo on it. Oh, well, I guess I'm just losing my time throwing words that will have no significant impact, but as this thread become longer and longer, I can't resist anymore to give my (probably uninteresting) point of view. [1] And you may know that the peace symbol is historically as recent as the yin and yang is ancient: a non-trademarked symbol can rest for long, and you can still make some of them nowadays -- Association Culture-Libre http://www.culture-libre.org/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Peter Southwood, 04/06/2013 11:31: I am not an expert on copyright of logos, which is why I ask the question. Howevr, I would have thought that a logo is described by the image, not by words. The premise is wrong; it's rather the opposite. (Personally I've only registered one trademark, but I encourage you to read the how-tos and forms to do so.) Images are recognised differently to words. If you put the two logos in question together they are not easy to confuse, except possibly that they use the same set of colors. What are the criteria for infringement claim? use of the same set of colours? a similar circular overall shape? Curved lines forming pointy wedge shapes? How does one prove difference? subjective? by testing on unbiased viewers? More expensive lawyers? Bribing the judge? I don't know, so I ask. If we have to choose a new logo it would help to know what might be acceptable, as I think I have made it clear that I don't consider the existing logo easily confused with the WTO logo, and I think they are just pushing their luck to get precedent on a whole range of possibilities that might be confused by a shortsighted person in a dark room on drugs. WTF, I no longer expect a useful relevant answer. For practical purposes, I suggest you to adopt this definition: two trademarks are too similar if a trademark owner considers the similarity worth fighting legally. Similarly, going into details of how our logo could be defended is tricky and needs experts, so your question assumes that our logo is worth defending. That's why you got replies on your premise rather than to your question... the answer is, they're similar because it would be too hard to prove otherwise and it's not worth it. Ok? Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Mathieu Stumpf, 04/06/2013 11:24: Le 2013-06-04 10:00, Federico Leva (Nemo) a écrit : Peter Southwood, 03/06/2013 19:26: In case anyone was so misguided at to think that I object to WTO protecting their logo per se. That is NOT my point, and never was. My point is that the WTO logo and WV logo are not easily confused. I asked a simple question about what the specifics of the complaint were, which has still not been answered. Instead the query has been brushed under the carpet and a pointless quibbling has ensued. I give up in frustration. Asking a simple question on this list appears to be a complete wate of effort. I'm sorry you feel that way. Trademark similarity is not an exact science Isn't it because trademark is based on the completly irrelevant and irrealistic willing to have an unilateral despotic control on some symbol, branded as image protection, using ego/narcissistic fallacies to argue, threat and coercion to impose its observance? Yes. I believe you've just described free market. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Hello, all. I'm delighted to issue an update here. :) Even though Michelle Paulson is out until Thursday because she was subpoenaed as a witness in a trial (unrelated to WMF), she has continued talking to WTO about the possibility of extending the end of July deadline they had already granted us. We now have until the end of August. Obviously, this gives us considerably more time to work out the best process for choosing the logo and getting things in place. I'm so grateful that Michelle has continued working on this and that WTO is being so reasonable about timing. And I really appreciate those people who are discussing the procedure at Meta. :) If you want to join on that discussion, again, it's here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Logo_selection_procedure Maggie On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Maggie Dennis mden...@wikimedia.orgwrote: Hello, all. I've just posted an announcement by legal on Meta ( http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikivoyage/Logo_announcement) about the Wikivoyage logo - unfortunately, we are going to have to choose a new one. To save you all from having to click on the link, I'll reproduce the announcement at the bottom of my email. Sometime in the next couple of weeks, we will need to launch a contest for the new Wikivoyage logo, but first I'm hoping to get feedback and assistance in making the best process for that possible. We had been considering ways to optimize logo selection by the community, with the idea that we would have plenty of time to talk about the process before needing it. Unfortunately, we now need something quite quickly. Accordingly, I'd be really grateful for feedback on the process, which has been posted here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Logo_contest_procedure You can read a little more about it here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Logo_contest_procedure I hope you will share your questions, comments and suggestions there. Thanks. Maggie As many of you know, the community held a contest to design and decide upon the new logo that would come to represent Wikivoyage, the latest open and collaborative project to be hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. After review of quite a few fantastic entries and much debate, the logo below was decided upon by community consensus: [omitted; see linked discussion] Unfortunately, both the Foundation and several members of the community discovered that the eventually chosen logo bore a striking resemblance to the World Trade Organization (“WTO”) logo: [omitted; see linked discussion] At that time, the Foundation reviewed the two logos and believed that, while some risk existed, there were significant enough differences between the designs and the markets the two organizations occupied for both logos to co-exist. Since then, the Foundation has received a cease-and-desist letter from the WTO, requesting that we change the logo. While we wish that the WTO agreed with our assessment that the two logos contain substantial differences and could co-exist, we understand their concern. We still believe that there are some significant differences between the Wikivoyage logo and the WTO, however, such arguments are not guaranteed to win if we were to legally oppose this request because there are also some substantial similarities. With this in mind, as well as the fact that the Wikivoyage logo is still relatively new and has not had a chance to build significant brand recognition yet, we believe the better solution is to hold a new community contest for a new logo. We believe that the community is the best body to decide what logo should represent their hard work and hope that interested community members will take this opportunity to once again showcase their creativity and talent by submitting designs. The WTO has been very understanding of the Wikimedia movement’s values and need for community consensus and has agreed to grant us ample time to develop a new logo through community processes. (Please see the proposed Logo contest procedurehttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Logo_contest_procedure.) That said, we hope to begin the process of community consultation and input in the next few days so that the new logo can be in place by the end of July. With that, we look forward to seeing new designs! Michelle Paulson http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Mpaulson_(WMF) Legal and Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
That would only be true if they were right. - Original Message - From: phoebe ayers phoebe.w...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:35 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote: Peter Southwood, 02/06/2013 07:43: So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones. Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles. Why would you want to share visual identity with a bully? Nemo Ha! +1 :) And also what Denny, Deryck and SJ said. -- phoebe -- * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers at gmail.com * ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
The case already cost money to the WMF, because of the time invested by our legal counsel. As with the Loriot stamps and the office action then, it's not worth to loose (even more) money for it. That might look different in a different legal system and with better odds. I am not quite happy with making this a moral question about 'standing up to bullies', Peter. If you want to fight bullying, there is a lot to do within the Wikipedia editing community... Kind regards Ziko Am Montag, 3. Juni 2013 schrieb Peter Southwood : That would only be true if they were right. - Original Message - From: phoebe ayers phoebe.w...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:35 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Peter Southwood, 02/06/2013 07:43: So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones. Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles. Why would you want to share visual identity with a bully? Nemo Ha! +1 :) And also what Denny, Deryck and SJ said. -- phoebe -- * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers at gmail.com * __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Ziko van Dijk voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland deputy chair Wikimedia Chapters Association Council Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht http://wikimedia.nl ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Indeed, and what if the Wikimedia movement looks after its own logos, would that be bullying too? :-) I remember a site with a name like Wikithistown (with Thistown being the name of a specific city) with the self-description: Wikithistown is the Wikipedia of Thistown, using also the Wikipedia logo. A Wikimedia representative asked the site makers friendly to reconsider the wording and the use of the logo, and they did. But some Wikipedia volunteers were very pissed off, because those people in Thistown are nice and do good things. This has never been disputed, but to avoid confusion in the age of Wikileaks it is really important to make clear who is what and who. Kind regards Ziko Ziko van Dijk voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland deputy chair Wikimedia Chapters Association Council Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht http://wikimedia.nl 2013/6/3 Katie Chan k...@ktchan.info On 03/06/2013 10:49, Ziko van Dijk wrote: The case already cost money to the WMF, because of the time invested by our legal counsel. As with the Loriot stamps and the office action then, it's not worth to loose (even more) money for it. That might look different in a different legal system and with better odds. I am not quite happy with making this a moral question about 'standing up to bullies', Peter. If you want to fight bullying, there is a lot to do within the Wikipedia editing community... Kind regards Ziko This has already been raised in this thread, but I want to emphaise can we please not equate everyone who enforces their trademarks as bullies. If a trademark holder do not enforces their trademark, they lose the trademark. Enforcing ones trademark is what a trademark holder is suppose to do. Now we can argue that the WTO is being overly broad in their interpretation of the similarity between the two logos, then the question becomes whether the Wikivoyage logo is worth spending the money fighting over. KTC -- Katie Chan Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent the view of any organisation the author is associated with or employed by. Experience is a good school but the fees are high. - Heinrich Heine __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Hi, Sometime in the next couple of weeks, we will need to launch a contest for the new Wikivoyage logo, but first I'm hoping to get feedback and assistance in making the best process for that possible. We had been considering ways to optimize logo selection by the community, with the idea that we would have plenty of time to talk about the process before needing it. Unfortunately, we now need something quite quickly. Accordingly, I'd be really grateful for feedback on the process, which has been posted here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Logo_contest_procedure You can read a little more about it here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Logo_contest_procedure If it is so urgent, why start a new contest ? It would be a lot faster to take the second best choice from the first contest. Regards, -- Lionel Allorge April : http://www.april.org Lune Rouge : http://www.lunerouge.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
On 03.06.2013 14:29, David Gerard wrote: On 3 June 2013 13:22, Lionel Allorge (lionel.allo...@lunerouge.org) lionel.allo...@lunerouge.org wrote: If it is so urgent, why start a new contest ? It would be a lot faster to take the second best choice from the first contest. This was the obvious thing that occurred to me too. I assume there was a reason why not? - d. This particular question is being discussed in detail on Meta for I believe a couple of days. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ruwrote: On 03.06.2013 14:29, David Gerard wrote: On 3 June 2013 13:22, Lionel Allorge (lionel.allo...@lunerouge.org) lionel.allo...@lunerouge.org wrote: If it is so urgent, why start a new contest ? It would be a lot faster to take the second best choice from the first contest. This was the obvious thing that occurred to me too. I assume there was a reason why not? - d. This particular question is being discussed in detail on Meta for I believe a couple of days. Cheers Yaroslav Indeed. Lovely to have more people in that discussion, if you'd like to join in. :) Maggie -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
In case anyone was so misguided at to think that I object to WTO protecting their logo per se. That is NOT my point, and never was. My point is that the WTO logo and WV logo are not easily confused. I asked a simple question about what the specifics of the complaint were, which has still not been answered. Instead the query has been brushed under the carpet and a pointless quibbling has ensued. I give up in frustration. Asking a simple question on this list appears to be a complete wate of effort. Peter Southwood - Original Message - From: Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo Indeed, and what if the Wikimedia movement looks after its own logos, would that be bullying too? :-) I remember a site with a name like Wikithistown (with Thistown being the name of a specific city) with the self-description: Wikithistown is the Wikipedia of Thistown, using also the Wikipedia logo. A Wikimedia representative asked the site makers friendly to reconsider the wording and the use of the logo, and they did. But some Wikipedia volunteers were very pissed off, because those people in Thistown are nice and do good things. This has never been disputed, but to avoid confusion in the age of Wikileaks it is really important to make clear who is what and who. Kind regards Ziko Ziko van Dijk voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland deputy chair Wikimedia Chapters Association Council Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht http://wikimedia.nl 2013/6/3 Katie Chan k...@ktchan.info On 03/06/2013 10:49, Ziko van Dijk wrote: The case already cost money to the WMF, because of the time invested by our legal counsel. As with the Loriot stamps and the office action then, it's not worth to loose (even more) money for it. That might look different in a different legal system and with better odds. I am not quite happy with making this a moral question about 'standing up to bullies', Peter. If you want to fight bullying, there is a lot to do within the Wikipedia editing community... Kind regards Ziko This has already been raised in this thread, but I want to emphaise can we please not equate everyone who enforces their trademarks as bullies. If a trademark holder do not enforces their trademark, they lose the trademark. Enforcing ones trademark is what a trademark holder is suppose to do. Now we can argue that the WTO is being overly broad in their interpretation of the similarity between the two logos, then the question becomes whether the Wikivoyage logo is worth spending the money fighting over. KTC -- Katie Chan Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent the view of any organisation the author is associated with or employed by. Experience is a good school but the fees are high. - Heinrich Heine __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Peter, we stand up to big bullies. As big as they get. But in this case, I cannot see the WTO bullying us. Their terms are very reasonable in my opinion, and I am grateful to the legal team for handling this situation this well. But in this case, we are talking about either changing a non-established logo - something that has been discussed anyway before in the community, as SJ pointed out - or risking to spend donation money on a very expensive legal battle that, frankly, does not look very promising. And if the court decides against us, which simply looks probable, we would need to change it anyway. Or, to put it differently, Peter: what other programs paid by our budget would you curtail in order to try defending the Wikivoyage logo? Should we cut down on development? On supporting chapters? Look at FDC and IEG, and simply weight the projects enabled by that money against keeping the Wikivoyage logo? Is the logo really worth that much? Our movement fights against big bullies. Be it in the legislative branch, where we use protest and lobbying, be it in the judicial branch, where we defend volunteers in court, be it in the executive branch, where our methods are cooperation and mutual support. But I fail to see what the benefit of this particular fight would be in reaching our mission. The costs, on the other hand, can be drastic. 2013/6/2 Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones. Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles. Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo On 2 June 2013 00:22, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Craig Franklin wrote: I'm sure that the legal team has done their homework on this and would not have made this recommendation unless they felt that the WTO had a credible argument. Asking the Foundation to play chicken with the lawyers of a major international organisation over a trademark claim on a relatively new and easily replaced logo of ours does not offer a very good risk/reward ratio in my view. You mean has done their homework on this this time, right? The General Counsel position is one of the oldest in the Wikimedia Foundation and the Legal and Community Advocacy team certainly existed before the previous Wikivoyage logo contest. If this were an issue, you'd think someone would've said something six months ago. And, of course, there's no shortage of trademark, patent, or copyright trolls in the world. I've seen both logos and while they're obviously similar, I'm sure there are a great number of lawyers who could make a number of arguments as to why there's no real issue here. Anyone can send a cease and desist letter, right? The WMF Legal team are good, but they're not *that* good. I'm sure if Geoff and the gang were capable of foretelling the future to see if they'd get issued with a cease-and-desist, they'd be spending their lottery winnings in the Caribbean rather than dealing with trademark issues. There are also at least a few Wikivoyagers who are concerned that the active participants of Wikivoyage weren't properly enfranchised during the last logo contest. That is, there's a concern that the people most involved with Wikivoyage will get drowned out by the much larger Wikimedia community in any contest of this nature. Obviously this is a valid concern, but that's best dealt with by making sure that the best process is in place for the logo competition, not by complaining about something that, lets face it, is not going to change. Obviously, for those that were unhappy with the last logo process, this is an opportunity to have an improved contest this time around. I would think some of these issues would be of concern to you. This isn't about asking anyone to play chicken. It's about ensuring that communities are free to choose their own identity. Well, obviously I'd be happy for them to pick whatever identity, so long as it's not infringing on a trademark. In other words, they can't have the Golden Arches or Mickey Mouse ears! :-). More seriously though, while I suppose the WMF might conceivably be eventually victorious in court on this sort of issue, the expense would be enormous and the legal team's time is much better spent on things other than fighting battles over non-core principles with international organisations. I also suspect that the WTO has a fair bit more cash to splash around on fancy lawyers to fight this than we do. It's not a nice situation to be in obviously, but it's better than the Foundation having to waste its money fighting this in court. Cheers, Craig __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Peter Southwood, 02/06/2013 07:43: So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones. Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles. Why would you want to share visual identity with a bully? Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
MZM, This time misses the point of risk management - it's all probabilistic rather than deterministic. It is totally reasonable for WMF to have judged that the differences between the two logos are large enough that a trademark claim is sufficiently *unlikely* to happen. But outliers do occur and in this case WTO chose (against perceived odds) to make a claim. And it's totally reasonable, too, for the WMF to now judge that the risks of going to court about this logo isn't worth fighting. Saying that WMF must've made a mistake last time because they allowed the logo in the first place but then gave in on the trademark claim simply misses the point. Deryck (Putting his engineer hat on. Ironically engineers typically fight against, not defend, lawyers when they invoke arguments from statistical science.) On 1 Jun 2013 15:22, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Craig Franklin wrote: I'm sure that the legal team has done their homework on this and would not have made this recommendation unless they felt that the WTO had a credible argument. Asking the Foundation to play chicken with the lawyers of a major international organisation over a trademark claim on a relatively new and easily replaced logo of ours does not offer a very good risk/reward ratio in my view. You mean has done their homework on this this time, right? The General Counsel position is one of the oldest in the Wikimedia Foundation and the Legal and Community Advocacy team certainly existed before the previous Wikivoyage logo contest. If this were an issue, you'd think someone would've said something six months ago. And, of course, there's no shortage of trademark, patent, or copyright trolls in the world. I've seen both logos and while they're obviously similar, I'm sure there are a great number of lawyers who could make a number of arguments as to why there's no real issue here. Anyone can send a cease and desist letter, right? Presenting a logo selection procedure from a black box and then trying to pressure the community to accept it as global policy within ten days doesn't seem appropriate to me. Ten days is being very generous, as the draft procedure is only fully translated into two languages at the moment and we're fast approaching June 2. There are also at least a few Wikivoyagers who are concerned that the active participants of Wikivoyage weren't properly enfranchised during the last logo contest. That is, there's a concern that the people most involved with Wikivoyage will get drowned out by the much larger Wikimedia community in any contest of this nature. This needs further thought, deliberation, and discussion; however this is being rushed by an apparently hard deadline from the Wikimedia legal team to change the Wikivoyage logo no later than July 31. This isn't a great situation to be in. I would think some of these issues would be of concern to you. This isn't about asking anyone to play chicken. It's about ensuring that communities are free to choose their own identity. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Very eloquently put Denny. I think your point is very well made that independently of what we as individuals think about the legal Trademark merits of this particular case, or the community processes of choosing a logo, the point remains that our fighting this would not help to serve the mission (either in a practical sense or an ideological sense) and could potentially lose us a lot of time and money that would be better spent elsewhere. It is unfortunate that it has come to this situation, but WMF-Legal has made this decision not because the WTO's budget is bigger than ours, but because their claim is sensible. I would hope that we would always say ok when other organisations ask sensible things from us, and we always say no when other organisations ask stupid things of us. In both cases these decisions should be made on the merits of the situation and independently of the size of the organisation asking. Simply because the WTO is big doesn't mean that everything they say is bullying (although they certainly do bully when they want to). - Liam / Wittylama On 2 June 2013 07:27, Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de wrote: Peter, we stand up to big bullies. As big as they get. But in this case, I cannot see the WTO bullying us. Their terms are very reasonable in my opinion, and I am grateful to the legal team for handling this situation this well. But in this case, we are talking about either changing a non-established logo - something that has been discussed anyway before in the community, as SJ pointed out - or risking to spend donation money on a very expensive legal battle that, frankly, does not look very promising. And if the court decides against us, which simply looks probable, we would need to change it anyway. Or, to put it differently, Peter: what other programs paid by our budget would you curtail in order to try defending the Wikivoyage logo? Should we cut down on development? On supporting chapters? Look at FDC and IEG, and simply weight the projects enabled by that money against keeping the Wikivoyage logo? Is the logo really worth that much? Our movement fights against big bullies. Be it in the legislative branch, where we use protest and lobbying, be it in the judicial branch, where we defend volunteers in court, be it in the executive branch, where our methods are cooperation and mutual support. But I fail to see what the benefit of this particular fight would be in reaching our mission. The costs, on the other hand, can be drastic. 2013/6/2 Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones. Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles. Cheers, Peter ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
On 2 June 2013 06:43, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones. Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles. The principle being applied here is, I think, do the right thing. The WTO is going out of their way to be decent about a logo that, to many a casual eye (including mine, and that of those who already flagged this as a problem in the original logo discussion) does look really quite a lot like theirs. Saying whoops, sorry and trying again is the right thing to do. Defending what is in fact your trademark does not make you a bully; Wikimedia defends its trademarks without being a big bully (though it has been accused of such by some, e.g. the EFF). - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Perhaps I missed something, because to me their logo does not look much like the WV logo. I would think that to anyone familiar with either of the logos, the other would be immediately recognised as different. Anyone who has the pattern recognition abilities to read should see that they differ without having to take a second glance. So what is their objection? (my actual question in the first instance) Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: David Gerard dger...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo On 2 June 2013 06:43, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones. Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles. The principle being applied here is, I think, do the right thing. The WTO is going out of their way to be decent about a logo that, to many a casual eye (including mine, and that of those who already flagged this as a problem in the original logo discussion) does look really quite a lot like theirs. Saying whoops, sorry and trying again is the right thing to do. Defending what is in fact your trademark does not make you a bully; Wikimedia defends its trademarks without being a big bully (though it has been accused of such by some, e.g. the EFF). - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:35 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote: Peter Southwood, 02/06/2013 07:43: So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones. Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles. Why would you want to share visual identity with a bully? Nemo Ha! +1 :) And also what Denny, Deryck and SJ said. -- phoebe -- * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers at gmail.com * ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Deryck Chan wrote: This time misses the point of risk management - it's all probabilistic rather than deterministic. It is totally reasonable for WMF to have judged that the differences between the two logos are large enough that a trademark claim is sufficiently *unlikely* to happen. But outliers do occur and in this case WTO chose (against perceived odds) to make a claim. And it's totally reasonable, too, for the WMF to now judge that the risks of going to court about this logo isn't worth fighting. Saying that WMF must've made a mistake last time because they allowed the logo in the first place but then gave in on the trademark claim simply misses the point. Very well put. :-) MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
I'm sure that the legal team has done their homework on this and would not have made this recommendation unless they felt that the WTO had a credible argument. Asking the Foundation to play chicken with the lawyers of a major international organisation over a trademark claim on a relatively new and easily replaced logo of ours does not offer a very good risk/reward ratio in my view. Cheers, Craig Franklin On 1 June 2013 19:59, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Has anyone done a search on other logos with similar characteristics, to see how much they differ? I think the WTO is taking a chance with this. Which specific aspects do they object to? Peter Southwood. - Original Message - From: Maggie Dennis mden...@wikimedia.org To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 8:21 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Michelle Paulson wrote: Since then, the Foundation has received a cease-and-desist letter from the WTO, requesting that we change the logo. While we wish that the WTO agreed with our assessment that the two logos contain substantial differences and could co-exist, we understand their concern. We still believe that there are some significant differences between the Wikivoyage logo and the WTO, however, such arguments are not guaranteed to win if we were to legally oppose this request because there are also some substantial similarities. With this in mind, as well as the fact that the Wikivoyage logo is still relatively new and has not had a chance to build significant brand recognition yet, we believe the better solution is to hold a new community contest for a new logo. Will the current Wikivoyage logo be an option in this upcoming logo selection contest? If the Wikivoyage community is strongly in favor of retaining the logo it already approved, what are options? On behalf of a Wikivoyager, I've already asked the legal team if derivatives of the current logo would be usable, and I'm afraid the answer is no. It must be a new logo. I don't believe there's any precedent for the Wikimedia Foundation vetoing a community-approved logo in this manner. (Is there?) This seems like unchartered territory for Wikimedia, so it's important to be cautious and careful, I think. I think that the reason why there's no precedent is because this is the first time that we have run into a trademark infringement claim against a logo. We believe that the community is the best body to decide what logo should represent their hard work and hope that interested community members will take this opportunity to once again showcase their creativity and talent by submitting designs. As I posted on the relevant Meta-Wiki talk page just now, the Wikimedia community cannot feel rushed or pressured to accept this new logo selection procedure. Typically a discussion of this nature would last at least thirty days, from my experience. This leaves two options, as I see it: pushing back the timeline for the selection of a Wikivoyage logo by a few weeks or not using this procedure for the selection of the next Wikivoyage logo. The question of process is one for Meta, where discussion is already underway. No reason to fracture it. :) I appreciate your input there. Maggie -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
I would still like an answer to my questions Cheers, Peter Southwood - Original Message - From: Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo I'm sure that the legal team has done their homework on this and would not have made this recommendation unless they felt that the WTO had a credible argument. Asking the Foundation to play chicken with the lawyers of a major international organisation over a trademark claim on a relatively new and easily replaced logo of ours does not offer a very good risk/reward ratio in my view. Cheers, Craig Franklin On 1 June 2013 19:59, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Has anyone done a search on other logos with similar characteristics, to see how much they differ? I think the WTO is taking a chance with this. Which specific aspects do they object to? Peter Southwood. - Original Message - From: Maggie Dennis mden...@wikimedia.org To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 8:21 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Michelle Paulson wrote: Since then, the Foundation has received a cease-and-desist letter from the WTO, requesting that we change the logo. While we wish that the WTO agreed with our assessment that the two logos contain substantial differences and could co-exist, we understand their concern. We still believe that there are some significant differences between the Wikivoyage logo and the WTO, however, such arguments are not guaranteed to win if we were to legally oppose this request because there are also some substantial similarities. With this in mind, as well as the fact that the Wikivoyage logo is still relatively new and has not had a chance to build significant brand recognition yet, we believe the better solution is to hold a new community contest for a new logo. Will the current Wikivoyage logo be an option in this upcoming logo selection contest? If the Wikivoyage community is strongly in favor of retaining the logo it already approved, what are options? On behalf of a Wikivoyager, I've already asked the legal team if derivatives of the current logo would be usable, and I'm afraid the answer is no. It must be a new logo. I don't believe there's any precedent for the Wikimedia Foundation vetoing a community-approved logo in this manner. (Is there?) This seems like unchartered territory for Wikimedia, so it's important to be cautious and careful, I think. I think that the reason why there's no precedent is because this is the first time that we have run into a trademark infringement claim against a logo. We believe that the community is the best body to decide what logo should represent their hard work and hope that interested community members will take this opportunity to once again showcase their creativity and talent by submitting designs. As I posted on the relevant Meta-Wiki talk page just now, the Wikimedia community cannot feel rushed or pressured to accept this new logo selection procedure. Typically a discussion of this nature would last at least thirty days, from my experience. This leaves two options, as I see it: pushing back the timeline for the selection of a Wikivoyage logo by a few weeks or not using this procedure for the selection of the next Wikivoyage logo. The question of process is one for Meta, where discussion is already underway. No reason to fracture it. :) I appreciate your input there. Maggie -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Craig Franklin wrote: I'm sure that the legal team has done their homework on this and would not have made this recommendation unless they felt that the WTO had a credible argument. Asking the Foundation to play chicken with the lawyers of a major international organisation over a trademark claim on a relatively new and easily replaced logo of ours does not offer a very good risk/reward ratio in my view. You mean has done their homework on this this time, right? The General Counsel position is one of the oldest in the Wikimedia Foundation and the Legal and Community Advocacy team certainly existed before the previous Wikivoyage logo contest. If this were an issue, you'd think someone would've said something six months ago. And, of course, there's no shortage of trademark, patent, or copyright trolls in the world. I've seen both logos and while they're obviously similar, I'm sure there are a great number of lawyers who could make a number of arguments as to why there's no real issue here. Anyone can send a cease and desist letter, right? Presenting a logo selection procedure from a black box and then trying to pressure the community to accept it as global policy within ten days doesn't seem appropriate to me. Ten days is being very generous, as the draft procedure is only fully translated into two languages at the moment and we're fast approaching June 2. There are also at least a few Wikivoyagers who are concerned that the active participants of Wikivoyage weren't properly enfranchised during the last logo contest. That is, there's a concern that the people most involved with Wikivoyage will get drowned out by the much larger Wikimedia community in any contest of this nature. This needs further thought, deliberation, and discussion; however this is being rushed by an apparently hard deadline from the Wikimedia legal team to change the Wikivoyage logo no later than July 31. This isn't a great situation to be in. I would think some of these issues would be of concern to you. This isn't about asking anyone to play chicken. It's about ensuring that communities are free to choose their own identity. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:22 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: I would think some of these issues would be of concern to you. This isn't about asking anyone to play chicken. It's about ensuring that communities are free to choose their own identity. Change it to a blank/transparent square for the logo at the current time, Then let WV take as long as they want to choose a new logo? ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
K. Peachey wrote: Change it to a blank/transparent square for the logo at the current time, Then let WV take as long as they want to choose a new logo? In other words, let's remove their logo, even against their wish, and then let /them/ come up with a solution? -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
On 2 June 2013 00:22, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Craig Franklin wrote: I'm sure that the legal team has done their homework on this and would not have made this recommendation unless they felt that the WTO had a credible argument. Asking the Foundation to play chicken with the lawyers of a major international organisation over a trademark claim on a relatively new and easily replaced logo of ours does not offer a very good risk/reward ratio in my view. You mean has done their homework on this this time, right? The General Counsel position is one of the oldest in the Wikimedia Foundation and the Legal and Community Advocacy team certainly existed before the previous Wikivoyage logo contest. If this were an issue, you'd think someone would've said something six months ago. And, of course, there's no shortage of trademark, patent, or copyright trolls in the world. I've seen both logos and while they're obviously similar, I'm sure there are a great number of lawyers who could make a number of arguments as to why there's no real issue here. Anyone can send a cease and desist letter, right? The WMF Legal team are good, but they're not *that* good. I'm sure if Geoff and the gang were capable of foretelling the future to see if they'd get issued with a cease-and-desist, they'd be spending their lottery winnings in the Caribbean rather than dealing with trademark issues. There are also at least a few Wikivoyagers who are concerned that the active participants of Wikivoyage weren't properly enfranchised during the last logo contest. That is, there's a concern that the people most involved with Wikivoyage will get drowned out by the much larger Wikimedia community in any contest of this nature. Obviously this is a valid concern, but that's best dealt with by making sure that the best process is in place for the logo competition, not by complaining about something that, lets face it, is not going to change. Obviously, for those that were unhappy with the last logo process, this is an opportunity to have an improved contest this time around. I would think some of these issues would be of concern to you. This isn't about asking anyone to play chicken. It's about ensuring that communities are free to choose their own identity. Well, obviously I'd be happy for them to pick whatever identity, so long as it's not infringing on a trademark. In other words, they can't have the Golden Arches or Mickey Mouse ears! :-). More seriously though, while I suppose the WMF might conceivably be eventually victorious in court on this sort of issue, the expense would be enormous and the legal team's time is much better spent on things other than fighting battles over non-core principles with international organisations. I also suspect that the WTO has a fair bit more cash to splash around on fancy lawyers to fight this than we do. It's not a nice situation to be in obviously, but it's better than the Foundation having to waste its money fighting this in court. Cheers, Craig ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Hi Maggie and Michelle, thank you for this update. I see that 4 people noted similarity to the WTO logo in the first round of voting. Another noted that while he liked the logo, it should be modified to be significantly different in the second round... but that did not happen. (none of the variants were selected) We should probably have an explicit step in selection that reflects on similarities to other logos, and the likelihood that this would be a problem. And it would be nice to get a heads-up on the wiki when these sorts of takedown notices are received, whether or not we choose to fight them. MZM writes: There are also at least a few Wikivoyagers who are concerned that the active participants of Wikivoyage weren't properly enfranchised during the last logo contest. Yes, and they were considering revisiting the logo selection anyway now that the site has gotten underway. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikivoyage/Lounge#Wikivoyage_Logo Every logo contest to date has been somewhat ad-hoc; this one will be also -- hopefully managed by the Wikivoyagers. It's a fine idea to RfC a standard process that can be used for future contests, but that can be done in parallel to any current logo selection (as I commented on meta). Craig Franklin writes: More seriously though, while I suppose the WMF might conceivably be eventually victorious in court on this sort of issue, the expense would be enormous and the legal team's time is much better spent on things other than fighting battles over non-core principles with international organisations. I also suspect that the WTO has a fair bit more cash to splash around on fancy lawyers to fight this than we do. Yes on all counts. I was involved in a similar process at One Laptop per Child - we did fight, since it was about a core logo, but it took two years to resolve completely and was a real pain. Sam. -- Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529 4266 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Hello, all. I've just posted an announcement by legal on Meta ( http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikivoyage/Logo_announcement) about the Wikivoyage logo - unfortunately, we are going to have to choose a new one. To save you all from having to click on the link, I'll reproduce the announcement at the bottom of my email. Sometime in the next couple of weeks, we will need to launch a contest for the new Wikivoyage logo, but first I'm hoping to get feedback and assistance in making the best process for that possible. We had been considering ways to optimize logo selection by the community, with the idea that we would have plenty of time to talk about the process before needing it. Unfortunately, we now need something quite quickly. Accordingly, I'd be really grateful for feedback on the process, which has been posted here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Logo_contest_procedure You can read a little more about it here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Logo_contest_procedure I hope you will share your questions, comments and suggestions there. Thanks. Maggie As many of you know, the community held a contest to design and decide upon the new logo that would come to represent Wikivoyage, the latest open and collaborative project to be hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. After review of quite a few fantastic entries and much debate, the logo below was decided upon by community consensus: [omitted; see linked discussion] Unfortunately, both the Foundation and several members of the community discovered that the eventually chosen logo bore a striking resemblance to the World Trade Organization (“WTO”) logo: [omitted; see linked discussion] At that time, the Foundation reviewed the two logos and believed that, while some risk existed, there were significant enough differences between the designs and the markets the two organizations occupied for both logos to co-exist. Since then, the Foundation has received a cease-and-desist letter from the WTO, requesting that we change the logo. While we wish that the WTO agreed with our assessment that the two logos contain substantial differences and could co-exist, we understand their concern. We still believe that there are some significant differences between the Wikivoyage logo and the WTO, however, such arguments are not guaranteed to win if we were to legally oppose this request because there are also some substantial similarities. With this in mind, as well as the fact that the Wikivoyage logo is still relatively new and has not had a chance to build significant brand recognition yet, we believe the better solution is to hold a new community contest for a new logo. We believe that the community is the best body to decide what logo should represent their hard work and hope that interested community members will take this opportunity to once again showcase their creativity and talent by submitting designs. The WTO has been very understanding of the Wikimedia movement’s values and need for community consensus and has agreed to grant us ample time to develop a new logo through community processes. (Please see the proposed Logo contest procedurehttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Logo_contest_procedure.) That said, we hope to begin the process of community consultation and input in the next few days so that the new logo can be in place by the end of July. With that, we look forward to seeing new designs! Michelle Paulson http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Mpaulson_(WMF) Legal and Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
Michelle Paulson wrote: Since then, the Foundation has received a cease-and-desist letter from the WTO, requesting that we change the logo. While we wish that the WTO agreed with our assessment that the two logos contain substantial differences and could co-exist, we understand their concern. We still believe that there are some significant differences between the Wikivoyage logo and the WTO, however, such arguments are not guaranteed to win if we were to legally oppose this request because there are also some substantial similarities. With this in mind, as well as the fact that the Wikivoyage logo is still relatively new and has not had a chance to build significant brand recognition yet, we believe the better solution is to hold a new community contest for a new logo. Will the current Wikivoyage logo be an option in this upcoming logo selection contest? If the Wikivoyage community is strongly in favor of retaining the logo it already approved, what are options? I don't believe there's any precedent for the Wikimedia Foundation vetoing a community-approved logo in this manner. (Is there?) This seems like unchartered territory for Wikimedia, so it's important to be cautious and careful, I think. We believe that the community is the best body to decide what logo should represent their hard work and hope that interested community members will take this opportunity to once again showcase their creativity and talent by submitting designs. As I posted on the relevant Meta-Wiki talk page just now, the Wikimedia community cannot feel rushed or pressured to accept this new logo selection procedure. Typically a discussion of this nature would last at least thirty days, from my experience. This leaves two options, as I see it: pushing back the timeline for the selection of a Wikivoyage logo by a few weeks or not using this procedure for the selection of the next Wikivoyage logo. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 8:21 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Michelle Paulson wrote: Since then, the Foundation has received a cease-and-desist letter from the WTO, requesting that we change the logo. While we wish that the WTO agreed with our assessment that the two logos contain substantial differences and could co-exist, we understand their concern. We still believe that there are some significant differences between the Wikivoyage logo and the WTO, however, such arguments are not guaranteed to win if we were to legally oppose this request because there are also some substantial similarities. With this in mind, as well as the fact that the Wikivoyage logo is still relatively new and has not had a chance to build significant brand recognition yet, we believe the better solution is to hold a new community contest for a new logo. Will the current Wikivoyage logo be an option in this upcoming logo selection contest? If the Wikivoyage community is strongly in favor of retaining the logo it already approved, what are options? On behalf of a Wikivoyager, I've already asked the legal team if derivatives of the current logo would be usable, and I'm afraid the answer is no. It must be a new logo. I don't believe there's any precedent for the Wikimedia Foundation vetoing a community-approved logo in this manner. (Is there?) This seems like unchartered territory for Wikimedia, so it's important to be cautious and careful, I think. I think that the reason why there's no precedent is because this is the first time that we have run into a trademark infringement claim against a logo. We believe that the community is the best body to decide what logo should represent their hard work and hope that interested community members will take this opportunity to once again showcase their creativity and talent by submitting designs. As I posted on the relevant Meta-Wiki talk page just now, the Wikimedia community cannot feel rushed or pressured to accept this new logo selection procedure. Typically a discussion of this nature would last at least thirty days, from my experience. This leaves two options, as I see it: pushing back the timeline for the selection of a Wikivoyage logo by a few weeks or not using this procedure for the selection of the next Wikivoyage logo. The question of process is one for Meta, where discussion is already underway. No reason to fracture it. :) I appreciate your input there. Maggie -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
