[Wikimedia-l] the hidden toolbox
On 17 September 2012 19:27, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com javascript:; wrote: On 17 September 2012 18:03, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com javascript:; wrote: Naturally every link wants to escape from the toolbox, if it's collapsed :-) They were designed to be used, after all. I also haven't seen any solid argument for collapsing any navboxes by default (except perhaps those in the topnav which pop up on mouseover). It was one of the usability ideas from the Vector team. Apparently features confuse users. I think it's not unreasonable to say every extra word in the interface makes the interface a tiny bit more confusing - one of the eternal problems of our interface is excessive and disorienting clutter. It's great if you're used to it - it's always impressive to watch an experienced Wikipedian navigate a site in an entirely different language and script just by knowing where things are - but it's a pretty daunting thing to start with. I don't know if a collapsed toolbox is the best way to do it (perhaps a top drop-down, like the gadgets option, would be better) but it's an attempt at solving the overload problem. -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk javascript:; -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] the hidden toolbox
On 19 September 2012 17:27, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: On 17 September 2012 19:27, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com javascript:; wrote: On 17 September 2012 18:03, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com javascript:; wrote: They were designed to be used, after all. I also haven't seen any solid argument for collapsing any navboxes by default (except perhaps those in the topnav which pop up on mouseover). It was one of the usability ideas from the Vector team. Apparently features confuse users. I think it's not unreasonable to say every extra word in the interface makes the interface a tiny bit more confusing - one of the eternal problems of our interface is excessive and disorienting clutter. It's great if you're used to it - it's always impressive to watch an experienced Wikipedian navigate a site in an entirely different language and script just by knowing where things are - but it's a pretty daunting thing to start with. I don't know if a collapsed toolbox is the best way to do it (perhaps a top drop-down, like the gadgets option, would be better) but it's an attempt at solving the overload problem. That there was a plausible reason to hide functionality doesn't mean it actually works out to be a good idea, and it arguably not working out to be one is the point of this thread. It turns out that if you obscure functionality, people don't know it exists and their use of the site is hampered. We do need to convert readers to editors, after all. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] the hidden toolbox
NSince sending that last email, I've been thinking about why the toolboxes are effectively hidden. (I don't disagree they are - to a new user, having a link in a collapsed toolbox is functionally equivalent to it not existing) One possible problem is that the collapsed toolbox has, visibly, very few cues to distinguish it from a link. There's the triangle, but that can easily be mistaken for a pretty bulletpoint. If we changed it to (eg) Page tools menu / Print/export menu / Languages menu... would that be more of a cue? No easy way of telling how people use it without looking over their shoulders, though. - Andrew. On Wednesday, 19 September 2012, David Gerard wrote: I don't know if a collapsed toolbox is the best way to do it (perhaps a top drop-down, like the gadgets option, would be better) but it's an attempt at solving the overload problem. That there was a plausible reason to hide functionality doesn't mean it actually works out to be a good idea, and it arguably not working out to be one is the point of this thread. It turns out that if you obscure functionality, people don't know it exists and their use of the site is hampered. We do need to convert readers to editors, after all. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] the hidden toolbox
2012/9/19 MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com David Gerard wrote: That there was a plausible reason to hide functionality doesn't mean it actually works out to be a good idea, and it arguably not working out to be one is the point of this thread. It turns out that if you obscure functionality, people don't know it exists and their use of the site is hampered. We do need to convert readers to editors, after all. Based on anecdotal evidence, I can safely say that hiding the page move action below the arrow tab in the Vector skin has significantly increased the number of people who have no idea how to move a page. Yes, boy and girls, hiding things makes them more difficult to find; film at 11. :-) MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l That plus the fact they need to know move actually means rename irl terms... JP ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] the hidden toolbox
On 17 September 2012 18:03, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: Naturally every link wants to escape from the toolbox, if it's collapsed :-) They were designed to be used, after all. I also haven't seen any solid argument for collapsing any navboxes by default (except perhaps those in the topnav which pop up on mouseover). It was one of the usability ideas from the Vector team. Apparently features confuse users. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] the hidden toolbox
Hello, Time after time I run into new users of Wikimedia projects who don't know that they can use the functions that are available in the Toolbox on the sidebar, such as What links here, Upload file, User contributions and E-mail this user. I pointed these people to the toolbox, because they were looking for these functions and couldn't find them. I also heard numerous complaints from users who use a [[screen reader]] and don't know that they need to click the Toolbox link to get access to these functions. Here we have two reasons to have the Toolbox expanded by default. Is there a reason to have the toolbox collapsed by default? -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] the hidden toolbox
Well, this was discussed at length in 2010 (one of the threads was started by yourself): e.g. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/45758 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/46089 The big question is still valid: just hiding what's found to be used less makes no sense, we should rather measure if showing or moving something increases impact with regard to our aims (which can be difficult to define). The result so far seems to be only that everyone wants to escape from the toolbox, see e.g. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Collection_Extension_2#Wireframe_Layout_for_placing_the_print_and_Collection_extension_buttons (which has also a wider rationale); monobook users stay where they are. On the bright side, this is something the e3 team could shed some light on at last? Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
