Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Peter Southwood
Some _are_ better at it than others. Also some are better at editing then dealing with other people, and some are just unable to deal with other people in an environment where to a large extent, one is not held accountable for one's actions. This is the downside of anonymity. en:WP is in

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
I don't think it is possible, in a worldwide organization like the Wikis, to be reliant on where the loyalties of many of these so-called problematic editors reside. I think that the Wiki-organization in itself must be responsible that the Wiki-users are not abused or harassed, just because

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Peter Gervai
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Lars Gardenius lars.garden...@yahoo.de wrote: No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way. You mean it's not _solved_. Indeed. At least one problem was mentioned in the thread which is that the (honest, knowledgeable) newbies have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
It is very laudable if you, Peter, tries and help newbies and others that are harassed by other users. I however don't think it is enough in a worldwide organization that you have to rely on volunteers and that these will intervene. As I see it, if you start such an organization you must also

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Fred Bauder
That was the purpose of the original arbitration committee. Finding a mentor is kind of hard nowdays as there are so many users who might help but probably will not. On the other hand, many requests I have received and looked into are from people who are making trouble themselves; sometimes very

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Pavlo Shevelo
Sorry, but I'm not agree with your note, Anders. My home WP is not en: (it's uk: in fact) but everything being discussed is very (100%) applicable for our community. Lucky you are in se:WP that you have no similar issues/problems but perhaps you've collected some magical know-how how to avoid

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Anders Wennersten
It is no magic *yearly reelection of administrators/sysops has meant no bullying types are sysops any more *we are a small community with just a few hundred active. And we have decided to treat everyone (who are serious) as valuable individuals, and go a very long way to make all feeling

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread cro0016
I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not work now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things harder) Steve Zhang Sent from my iPad On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius

[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread MZMcBride
Hi. The recent draft privacy policy mentions that the Wikimedia blog (https://blog.wikimedia.org) will soon be hosted by WordPress.com. Was this discussed anywhere? If so, where? What is the proposed URL structure of a blog hosted by WordPress.com? I think there's a reasonable expectation that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Fred Bauder
That's Sweden all right, it's like a small town. Thousands of administrators from scores of countries is another matter. Even requests for administration is very difficult as, unless you do big time research, or spend your life monitoring others edits and activity, you just don't know much. Voting

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't work. Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow. Regards, Lars Gardenius Von: cro0...@gmail.com cro0...@gmail.com An: Lars Gardenius lars.garden...@yahoo.de; Wikimedia Mailing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Fred Bauder
For a serious discussion to happen you will need to disclose some examples. The next step is to move beyond anecdote to see if there is a general problem. The particular incident Rui brought up has been pretty much explained, but the question remains about have a new or casual editor who commits

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Pavlo Shevelo
I doubt that scale is only thing which matters. As to me both enWP and ukWP suffers from lack of community (extremely important word in Anders' comment) as that despite the fact that fist is much larger 'town' (even 'city') than svWP, and second is small 'village'. I mean community solid enough

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread cro0016
I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia (I have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more interested

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. I think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this thread. To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
I don't agree with Anders Wennersten below. I have certainly seen the same kind of problems in Sweden as well (at least a couple of years back). There are other Swedish Wikis than Wikipedia mind you. The problem is structural so it is shared by all Wikis. Regards, Lars Gardenius

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
As said I think it is an obvious structural problem of the Wiki organization. I don't think the intention of this thread was to solve a single issue but to point out a general problem. Regards, Lars Gardenius Von: Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net An:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Fred Bauder
Lars, Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes? Fred I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. I think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this thread. To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the

[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia CH has just hired two new directors

2013-09-05 Thread Frédéric Schütz
Dear all, I'm very glad to tell you that Wikimedia CH has just hired two new directors. Duc-Ahn Chung will be our new Chief Administrative Officer, starting in November, and Charles Andrès, our former president of the board, will be our new Chief Science Officer. Read on for more details!

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Anders Wennersten
Lars Gardenius skrev 2013-09-05 15:53: As said I think it is an obvious structural problem of the Wiki organization. I disagree to that statement. While Fred is about right likening sv:wp to a medium sized town, being a bit idyllic, even if persons have feelings here to a get in a conflict

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 09/05/2013 04:18 AM, Lars Gardenius wrote: That Wikipedia:Dispute resolution mirrors a very naive approach in a worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't work now. Where doesn't work is mostly defined as didn't give the result I demanded. I've been part of that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Fred Bauder
Yes, that is pretty much the situation. The howls of outraged anguish from those who were not able to dictate (really bad) content or practices form the core of our organized opposition. That does not mean systemic deficiencies don't exist; just that we must look and think in a noisy environment.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 09/05/2013 11:49 AM, Lars Gardenius wrote: But if your child is mobbed at a Wiki when he/she tries to contribute, or your grandmother is being abused when she contributes to a Wiki, you want somewhere to turn. As said there is no such instance in the Wikis, there is noone responsible how

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
Sorry but I don't what/who OP is. And you still misunderstand. This is not a question about consensus over some article, it is about normal human behaviour, and that it sometimes is not there. If you haven't seen that happening I don't know where you have been looking. I think you paint an

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Fred Bauder
OP = original poster, Rui Sorry but I don't what/who OP is. And you still misunderstand. This is not a question about consensus over some article, it is about normal human behaviour, and that it sometimes is not there. If you haven't seen that happening I don't know where you have been

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
Well that is pretty easy: that Wiki-org will follow the example put up by many countries, companies and schools. Create an independent instance (i.e. in this case independent of the Wikis) that you can turn to when you are offended, insulted, mobbed, harassed or in any way mistreated by people

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Pavlo Shevelo
It seems to me, that Lars in wording * **you take a step aside and are no longer actively involved in any Wiki* means seasoned Wiki veterans, so *former* insiders. On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:30 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Who is both independent, knowledgeable, and not involved

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
The problem is that howls of outraged anguish seems to come from the admins not from the newbies. But that was not the question here. The question was that the Wikis lack an instance that people can turn to when they are harassed and mobbed in the wikis, be that newbies or admins, children or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Fred Bauder
On the contrary, the Arbitration Committee has the responsibility and the power. That they do not discharge the full remit is another matter. People have ran for and been elected to the committee on a platform of not discharging the responsibility it was given. Fred No, I just responded to a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Fred Bauder
Indeed, a community a few hundred seems optimal. Fred This is certainly not a question only for the English Wikipedia. I somewhat doubt that it even foremost has to do with the English Wikipedia. I have seen this problem primarily in smaller Wikis dominated by few people. Regards, Lars

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
Perhaps you should think again Anders. It certainly also has to do with the Swedish wikis. You just repeated what you wrote earlier. Regards, Lars Gardenius Von: Anders Wennersten m...@anderswennersten.se An: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Gesendet: 13:23

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Chad Horohoe
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who bump up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Fred Bauder
No thank you, I do not have a dispute; you do; please follow the dispute resolution procedure. Fred Hi Tom Thanks for your contribution. However, you seem to have missed the point. So Lisa violates the 3RR principle and you lecture me. And I lodge a complaint over the 3RR and that gets

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Tyler Romeo
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: This is a very good point - we must try to protect logs of visitors to the WMF blog from the inevitably prying eyes of the National Security Agency! And only by self-hosting it will this be effectively accomplished! This

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
This is certainly not a question only for the English Wikipedia. I somewhat doubt that it even foremost has to do with the English Wikipedia. I have seen this problem primarily in smaller Wikis dominated by few people. Regards, Lars Gardenius Von: Fred

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Nathan
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:51 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: Personally i think this is a bad idea, especially with respect to all the nsa discussions. If wmf is not able to host it might be hosted by one of the chapters, or wikinews might accept a new article type blog, what

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Leslie Carr
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote: As I understand the blog is currently a self-hosted instance of Wordpress and the idea is to move the hosting to somewhere else. (So this is not MediaWiki vs. Wordpress, but self-hosting vs. not self-hosting) Exactly!

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia and the politics of encryption

2013-09-05 Thread Seb35
I don’t see precisely how mandatory HTTPS could help spread the knowledge; accordingly if users feel themselves spied and it prevent them to contribute, yes, HTTPS helps; but if others feel cluttered by HTTPS (time load, unfriendly firewalls, various problems), it could also lower the number of

[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Laura Hale
On Thursday, September 5, 2013, rupert THURNER wrote: Personally i think this is a bad idea, especially with respect to all the nsa discussions. If wmf is not able to host it might be hosted by one of the chapters, or wikinews might accept a new article type blog, what you think? Cool idea,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Andrew Gray
Mediawiki is indeed the most versatile platform, but that just means it's okay at most things. It doesn't mean it's better than other platforms explicitly designed for a particular job ;-) I'd prefer self-hosting on general principle, but if our operations people say it's better and more stable

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Lodewijk
This was definitely mentioned at Wikimania. What I understood is that it will be hosted externally for performance and reliability reasons, but that the rest should remain the same. Anyway, I'm not an expert here, just what I understood from Matthew Roth friends Lodewijk 2013/9/5 Richard

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread rupert THURNER
Personally i think this is a bad idea, especially with respect to all the nsa discussions. If wmf is not able to host it might be hosted by one of the chapters, or wikinews might accept a new article type blog, what you think? Rupert Am 05.09.2013 19:34 schrieb Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Steven Zhang
The dispute resolution page is a little bit of a mess, but we're working on streamlining things. Informal mediation was closed as it had been made largely redundant by the dispute resolution noticeboard. The same could perhaps be said about the mediation committee, but it's a long-standing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Gregory Varnum
I think this makes 100% sense from an operations perspective. Anytime you can outsource a lower priority web service - fantastic. However, from a community advocacy perspective - I am less convinced. I would be curious if anyone from that team could chime in as well. The security argument

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
I don't believe you are rightly informed there. You are of course right that there are many arenas where mobbing is frequent, like blogs and Facebook etc. But to believe that the Wikis are a rosy exception in that context is to be very naive or very ill informed. I don't exactly understand

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
No, I just responded to a problem that I recognized well. If you call him/her this or that is not important. The important thing is that the person (or group of persons) has the responsibility and the power to fulfil its task, i.e. to protect Wiki-users from abuses and mobbing. Today nobody

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Lars Gardenius
As said that are easily solved in the society as a whole. So it is probably also possible in Wikis. Regards, Lars Gardenius Von: Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net An: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Gesendet: 20:30 Donnerstag,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread David Gerard
On 5 September 2013 20:03, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: Mediawiki is indeed the most versatile platform, but that just means it's okay at most things. It doesn't mean it's better than other platforms explicitly designed for a particular job ;-) Wordpress is a ridiculously

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Nathan
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Dan Collins en.wp.s...@gmail.com wrote: At least OTRS and mailman belong inside our security bubble of control, where the only people with access are ops and they can be properly secured. The security risk of those applications potentially introducing and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

2013-09-05 Thread Dennis Pierri
I've had the same issues in Spanish Wikipedia, the project is missing neutrality and is in danger because of serious editors and admins which put their opinions before the Wikipedia values Sent from my iPhone On 04/09/2013, at 16:38, Rui Correia correia@gmail.com wrote: Greetings to All

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia and the politics of encryption

2013-09-05 Thread George Herbert
Theo: They even have a Key recovery service and it's been going on for a long while apparently, to the point that the NSA has been steering the release of encryption standards and tools. I suppose that should make the politics of encryption a bit less relevant? No; with Perfect Forward

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread shi zhao
*.Wordpress.com blocked in China. Chinese wikipedia: http://zh.wikipedia.org/ My blog: http://shizhao.org twitter: https://twitter.com/shizhao [[zh:User:Shizhao]] 2013/9/6 Matthew Roth mr...@wikimedia.org: Hi all, I was going to socialize some of the transitions for the Wikimedia blog in

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Greg Grossmeier
quote name=Tyler Romeo date=2013-09-05 time=23:17:46 -0400 On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:57 PM, shi zhao shiz...@gmail.com wrote: *.Wordpress.com blocked in China. Welp, there goes that plan. Being pedantic: that doesn't mean that all wordpress.com hosted blogs through different domains

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Matthew Roth
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:54 PM, Greg Grossmeier g...@wikimedia.org wrote: I can't think of one off the top of my head that is in that category (they don't usually advertise that they're wordpress.com-hosted) to test/suggest. Here are a few: http://wordpress.org/showcase Greg -- |

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia blog moving to WordPress.com

2013-09-05 Thread Tyler Romeo
Also, it'd be a bit difficult to set up, because I doubt the China firewall is stupid enough to allow simple CNAME redirects, so we'd have to dynamically interact with whatever Wordpress.com's DNS environment is. -- Tyler Romeo On Sep 6, 2013 1:11 AM, Matthew Roth mr...@wikimedia.org wrote: On