Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

2017-09-13 Thread Michael Peel
Everything being discussed here seems to have already been publicly posted by 
the relevant users? No private information seems to be being shared...

Thanks,
Mike

> On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:43, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> 
> If I go to somebody's employer and make wild claims about a person, like he
> does something irregular or illegal, then it is pretty much identical to
> this.
> 
> I seriously doubt WMF will be willing to share user account details with
> Upwork or any other, and I seriously doubt Upwork (or any other) will start
> blocking accounts on this terms.
> 
> Feel free to believe otherwise.
> 
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Michael Peel  wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what
>> you
>>> propose runs a serious legal risk.
>> 
>> {{citation needed}}
>> 
>>> I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be
>>> implemented.
>> 
>> Why?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>> 
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>> 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 


___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

2017-09-13 Thread James Heilman
No one is proposing going to anyone's employer. The proposal requires no
sharing of private account deals with Upworks or anyone else. These
comments do not appear to have any relation to what is being proposed.

James

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 7:43 PM, John Erling Blad  wrote:

> If I go to somebody's employer and make wild claims about a person, like he
> does something irregular or illegal, then it is pretty much identical to
> this.
>
> I seriously doubt WMF will be willing to share user account details with
> Upwork or any other, and I seriously doubt Upwork (or any other) will start
> blocking accounts on this terms.
>
> Feel free to believe otherwise.
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Michael Peel  wrote:
>
> >
> > > On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what
> > you
> > > propose runs a serious legal risk.
> >
> > {{citation needed}}
> >
> > > I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer
> be
> > > implemented.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

2017-09-13 Thread John Erling Blad
If I go to somebody's employer and make wild claims about a person, like he
does something irregular or illegal, then it is pretty much identical to
this.

I seriously doubt WMF will be willing to share user account details with
Upwork or any other, and I seriously doubt Upwork (or any other) will start
blocking accounts on this terms.

Feel free to believe otherwise.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Michael Peel  wrote:

>
> > On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what
> you
> > propose runs a serious legal risk.
>
> {{citation needed}}
>
> > I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be
> > implemented.
>
> Why?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

2017-09-13 Thread Michael Peel

> On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> 
> Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what you
> propose runs a serious legal risk.

{{citation needed}}

> I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be
> implemented.

Why?

Thanks,
Mike

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 


Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

2017-09-13 Thread John Erling Blad
Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what you
propose runs a serious legal risk.

I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be
implemented.

John

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:01 AM, James Heilman  wrote:

> I am wanting to protect Wikipedians from being impersonated. I am also
> wanting to protect those on Upworks and other sites from hiring people who
> are community banned or editing in breach of policy but pretending they are
> legit. This proposal will help with both of those.
>
> That people sometimes struggle to get help on Wikipedia, while unfortunate,
> is not the problem this proposal is working to address.
>
> If you are using Upworks etc for offering services other than the editing
> of Wikipedia for pay this proposal does not affect you in anyway. If you
> are a disclosed paid editor, you already per the terms of use are required
> to state the intermediaries you are working through and thus you should
> already be doing this.
>
> This proposal will actually help people find "white hat" paid editors who
> properly disclose.
>
> James
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:48 PM, John Erling Blad 
> wrote:
>
> > Okey, I may have (or perhaps not) edited a page. Perhaps I have an
> account
> > on Upwork (or perhaps not). That page may have been edited because I had
> a
> > discussion with someone at Upwork (or perhaps not). I could also been
> > discussing editing the page at OTRS, but again, perhaps not.
> >
> > How can you know that? Because I am "jeblad"? What if I am "honky donky"
> on
> > Wikipedia? Do you really believe that because someone said people doing
> > paid editing should say so actually do so?
> >
> > From point b on your RfC "but yet there is no account on Wikipedia that
> > discloses that account", how do you plan on figuring out which account on
> > those two systems are the same? To identify the culprit you must connect
> > two dots, and you don't have enough information about neither of them.
> >
> > I am on Upwork because a big and rather well-known organization asked me
> to
> > create an account. I have even edited pages! Yay! Go figure which one,
> and
> > why! ;p (To make it easy, their initials reads W-M-F, and no it was not
> > about Wikipedia-editing.)
> >
> > I see all the postings from people that ask for help about their
> wikipedia
> > pages. People ask for help because the failure of the
> wikipedia-communities
> > to provide sufficient help. Going after the people that help them is not
> a
> > good solution, it is (sorry) a stupid solution. If someone ask for help,
> > then help them!
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 2:22 AM, James Heilman  wrote:
> >
> > > Why? IMO it will protect users from being impersonated.
> > >
> > > It will allow us to more easily have taken down Fivver and Upworks
> > accounts
> > > that are pretending to be established Wikipedians.
> > >
> > > How would this leak anything? People involve with paid editor are
> already
> > > required to disclose the intermediaries through which they work and
> this
> > > does not change that.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM, John Erling Blad 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and
> > > > alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage
> of
> > > > identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the
> > involved
> > > > organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
> > > >
> > > > John Erling Blad
> > > > /jeblad
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here
> > > > >  > > > > interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_
> > > > > decrease_impersonation>.*
> > > > >
> > > > > This is to help address issues of impersonation of established
> > > > Wikipedians
> > > > > by paid editors.
> > > > >
> > > > > Further thoughts appreciated. Best
> > > > > --
> > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > >
> > > > > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >  unsubscribe>
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

2017-09-13 Thread James Heilman
I am wanting to protect Wikipedians from being impersonated. I am also
wanting to protect those on Upworks and other sites from hiring people who
are community banned or editing in breach of policy but pretending they are
legit. This proposal will help with both of those.

That people sometimes struggle to get help on Wikipedia, while unfortunate,
is not the problem this proposal is working to address.

If you are using Upworks etc for offering services other than the editing
of Wikipedia for pay this proposal does not affect you in anyway. If you
are a disclosed paid editor, you already per the terms of use are required
to state the intermediaries you are working through and thus you should
already be doing this.

This proposal will actually help people find "white hat" paid editors who
properly disclose.

James



On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:48 PM, John Erling Blad  wrote:

> Okey, I may have (or perhaps not) edited a page. Perhaps I have an account
> on Upwork (or perhaps not). That page may have been edited because I had a
> discussion with someone at Upwork (or perhaps not). I could also been
> discussing editing the page at OTRS, but again, perhaps not.
>
> How can you know that? Because I am "jeblad"? What if I am "honky donky" on
> Wikipedia? Do you really believe that because someone said people doing
> paid editing should say so actually do so?
>
> From point b on your RfC "but yet there is no account on Wikipedia that
> discloses that account", how do you plan on figuring out which account on
> those two systems are the same? To identify the culprit you must connect
> two dots, and you don't have enough information about neither of them.
>
> I am on Upwork because a big and rather well-known organization asked me to
> create an account. I have even edited pages! Yay! Go figure which one, and
> why! ;p (To make it easy, their initials reads W-M-F, and no it was not
> about Wikipedia-editing.)
>
> I see all the postings from people that ask for help about their wikipedia
> pages. People ask for help because the failure of the wikipedia-communities
> to provide sufficient help. Going after the people that help them is not a
> good solution, it is (sorry) a stupid solution. If someone ask for help,
> then help them!
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 2:22 AM, James Heilman  wrote:
>
> > Why? IMO it will protect users from being impersonated.
> >
> > It will allow us to more easily have taken down Fivver and Upworks
> accounts
> > that are pretending to be established Wikipedians.
> >
> > How would this leak anything? People involve with paid editor are already
> > required to disclose the intermediaries through which they work and this
> > does not change that.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM, John Erling Blad 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and
> > > alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage of
> > > identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the
> involved
> > > organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
> > >
> > > John Erling Blad
> > > /jeblad
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here
> > > >  > > > interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_
> > > > decrease_impersonation>.*
> > > >
> > > > This is to help address issues of impersonation of established
> > > Wikipedians
> > > > by paid editors.
> > > >
> > > > Further thoughts appreciated. Best
> > > > --
> > > > James Heilman
> > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >
> > > > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > 

[Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

2017-09-13 Thread James Heilman
Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here
.*

This is to help address issues of impersonation of established Wikipedians
by paid editors.

Further thoughts appreciated. Best
-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,