Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[James Salsman]

>... board meetings are confidential so board members under duress can
> always claim they tried to do whatever they were told to but got voted
down?

Board votes are published.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Gergo Tisza]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> So I would like to hear from Susanna how easy it would be for her to
> disobey direct instructions from her superiors related to her Wikimedia
> volunteer work, because *they* are clearly taking a keen interest in the
> development of Wikimedia projects in Armenia.
>

 Probably easy because board meetings are confidential so board members
under duress can always claim they tried to do whatever they were told to
but got voted down?

But that is certainly something to keep in mind when considering public
video streams of board meetings and similar ideas: that would make it
possible to put pressure on individual board members to act / not act in
specific ways.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Dariusz Jemielniak]

for the interest of people interested in this thread, Susanna replied on
wiki:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominations/Susanna_Mkrtchyan#Questions_about_government_support_for_Wikimedia_Armenia

I suggest continuing the discussion there, since it is related to the
current elections, and some people may not be following the list closely.

copied for your convenience:
Dear Andreas,Thank you very much for the important questions that you raise.Let
me first point out that Wikimedia Armenia is financially independent from
the Armenian government. Organizations which currently fund us are WMF and
Gulbenkian Foundation, located in Portugal. The only support that we
accepted from the Armenian government is our office space which is located
in a state-owned property (but not governmental building).I can ascertain
that we are well aware of the corruption risks in our country and how it
can have an impact on the Wikimedia movement. In fact we have had some
challenges in the past, especially with a past sponsor, those are issues
that we keep Wikimedia Foundation, in particular its lawyers, Asaf Bartov,
Jan Bart de Vreede, Liam Wyatt updated about.So we are very cautious when
cooperating with government agencies, statespeople or sponsors, this
doesn't however mean that we exclude any such cooperation. "One Armenian,
one article" campaign is one example of such cooperation (where different
statespeople (including opposition party members) and celebrities
encouraged people to edit Wikipedia). We did not notice many of these
statespeople actually editing Wikipedia, but the campaign overall
contributed to improve awareness about Wikipedia.As for the Soviet
Encyclopedia which is free-licensed and is used mainly by novice editors,
we do encourage editors to leave out outdated or politically loaded topics
that may include soviet-propaganda.Finally, about your concern that if I
worked for state institutions in the past: those were only scientific and
research institutions. Currently I am employed as leading researcher in the
Institute for Informatics and Automation Problems which is part of the
National Academy of Sciences of Armenia. As for Wikimedia Armenia, I always
and only worked as a volunteer (although we have paid staff).Thank you and
please let me know if you have any other concern points.--SusikMkr
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:SusikMkr> (talk
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SusikMkr>) 14:39, 3 March 2016
(UTC)


On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> But is it avoidable?
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Andreas Kolbe
> Sent: Thursday, 03 March 2016 2:37 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board
>
> Asaf,
>
> I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said
> that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.
>
> Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under
> the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along
> with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker
> at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia
> Armenia.[1][2]
>
> I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.
>
> Andreas
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Asaf Bartov <abar...@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in
> > Armenia since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants
> officer.
> > During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian,
> > building community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their
> > best work, and building partnerships with cultural institutions as
> > well as government in her country.  I have had the pleasure of
> > visiting Armenia last year and seeing up close one of Susanna's
> > impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as well as attending and
> > speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national
> > archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.
> >
> > Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's
> > commitment to movement values, *despite* working in a country
> > struggling with corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and
> > relatively weak democratic discipline.  Indeed, I have personally
> > witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts at co-optation of Wikimedia
> Armenia's work.
> >
> > I encourage Andreas to r

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Peter Southwood]

But is it avoidable?
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Andreas Kolbe
Sent: Thursday, 03 March 2016 2:37 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

Asaf,

I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said that 
cast aspersions on Susanna's character.

Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under the 
authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along with 
other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker at 
Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia 
Armenia.[1][2]

I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.

Andreas

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Asaf Bartov <abar...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in 
> Armenia since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants officer.
> During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian, 
> building community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their 
> best work, and building partnerships with cultural institutions as 
> well as government in her country.  I have had the pleasure of 
> visiting Armenia last year and seeing up close one of Susanna's 
> impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as well as attending and 
> speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national
> archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.
>
> Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's 
> commitment to movement values, *despite* working in a country 
> struggling with corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and 
> relatively weak democratic discipline.  Indeed, I have personally 
> witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts at co-optation of Wikimedia Armenia's 
> work.
>
> I encourage Andreas to retract his accusations ("clearly" etc.).
> Expressing a concern that there *might* be government interference was 
> perhaps legitimate, but proceeding to besmirch Susanna and her work 
> without evidence is unacceptable.
>
>Asaf
>
> [1] let us remember countries in the west struggle with tremendous 
> corruption too, albeit manifested more financially than ideologically.
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Cristian Consonni 
> <kikkocrist...@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > 2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe <jayen...@gmail.com>:
> > > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard 
> > > of
> her.
> > > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> > enthusiasm
> > > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics 
> > > that
> > have
> > > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly 
> > > part
> of
> > a
> > > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > 2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker <risker...@gmail.com>:
> > > Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  
> > > Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought 
> > > these rather extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before 
> > > Susanna had even
> > had
> > > a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > 2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan <nawr...@gmail.com>:
> > > Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level 
> > > government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What 
> > > I'm asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition 
> > > that
> because
> > > she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in 
> > > Wikipedia
> > that
> > > Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
> >
> > Andreas,
> >
> > You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely 
> > unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not 
> > knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
> >
> > The only person that thinks that  "she [Susanna] is clearly part of 
> > a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
> >
> > As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of 
> > logic and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan 
> > said you have no evidence to support anythi

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Pine W]

Andreas,

While I understand your interest in asking these questions, I feel that
Meta would be the best venue for this discussion, preferably on a page that
is designed for Q with the Board candidates. This way, the vast majority
of the questions for Board candidates can be located in the same place.

Thanks,

Pine

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Fae,
>
> Thanks. I've also had a conversation off-list about this with another
> Wikimedian whom I greatly respect, and they have shared similar impressions
> of Susanna with me. I truly appreciate the input.
>
> For the record, I do sincerely regret writing "But she is clearly part of
> a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia". I hope
> Susanna will forgive me my rash comment.
>
> Where does that leave us?
>
> It is entirely possible that Susanna's interest in Wikipedia is a mere
> hobby, and unrelated to her long and distinguished government career. And
> indeed, unless she tells us otherwise, we should assume that this is so.
>
> But we still need to account for the fact that the Armenian Minister of
> Education and Science and his deputy have both made appearances as featured
> speakers at Wikimedia Armenia events (along with similar appearances by the
> country's president, prime minister and minister of culture).[1][2][3]
>
> These politicians are, at however many levels' remove, Susanna's bosses in
> her professional life if she is a manager at the State Committee of
> Science. And they cannot be unaware of her role, given that she introduced
> them at the events where they spoke.
>
> So I would like to hear from Susanna how easy it would be for her to
> disobey direct instructions from her superiors related to her Wikimedia
> volunteer work, because *they* are clearly taking a keen interest in the
> development of Wikimedia projects in Armenia.
>
> There is another matter I would like to ask Susanna about. At the 2012
> WikiConference in Yerevan, Susanna introduced Igor Klimko as a featured
> speaker, according to the event's page on Meta[1]. Klimko was then the CEO
> of Armenia Telephone Company ("ArmenTel"), the major provider of telephone
> and broadband services in Armenia (part of the VimpelCom group).
>
> Klimko was more recently named in media reports as the prime suspect in a
> $500 million money laundering scandal.[4] Klimko, who has reportedly fled
> to Moscow,[4] claimed last week to have acted on instructions of Armenia's
> National Security Service.[5] The National Security Service denies that,
> and the case is ongoing.[5]
>
> I would be interested in hearing from Susanna whether Klimko financially
> supported the Wikimedia Armenia effort, and if not, how he came to speak at
> the 2012 WikiConference.
>
> A number of people have mentioned the need to "assume good faith". Let's
> not forget that we've had this kind of situation involving state leaders
> before, where people were "assuming good faith" and got burnt.[6] The sheer
> concentration of political leaders crowding in on the Wikimedia Armenia
> effort was eerily reminiscent of that situation to me. But I should not
> have said what I did, the way I said it, and I'm sorry.
>
> So let's assume good faith of Susanna, but please let's also do due
> diligence, in as respectful and kind manner as we can muster.
>
> I've made Susanna aware of this discussion.
>
> Andreas
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule
> [3]
>
> http://www.president.am/en/press-release/item/2015/06/19/President-Serzh-Sargsyan-visit-Wikimedia/
> [4]
>
> https://www.occrp.org/en/40-press-releases/presss-releases/4871-occrp-rise-euractiv-launch-internet-ownership-project
> [5]
>
> http://hetq.am/eng/news/65992/armentel-$500-million-swindle-employees-phone-messages-monitored.html
> [6] http://www.eurasianet.org/node/72831
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Fæ  wrote:
>
> > On 2 March 2016 at 23:15, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> > ...
> > > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of
> her.
> > > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> > enthusiasm
> > > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
> > have
> > > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part
> of
> > a
> > > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
> >
> > I did have the pleasure of meeting Susanna a few years ago, and
> > because she was a bit embarrassed about her hesitant spoken English, I
> > took care to spend a little extra one to one time to encourage her to
> > share a few views and explain what she had been up to in Armenia and
> > her thoughts on getting a new chapter going in a small community.
> > She's incredibly passionate about Wikipedia and its power to share
> > information about Armenia and its people 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Andreas Kolbe]

Fae,

Thanks. I've also had a conversation off-list about this with another
Wikimedian whom I greatly respect, and they have shared similar impressions
of Susanna with me. I truly appreciate the input.

For the record, I do sincerely regret writing "But she is clearly part of
a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia". I hope
Susanna will forgive me my rash comment.

Where does that leave us?

It is entirely possible that Susanna's interest in Wikipedia is a mere
hobby, and unrelated to her long and distinguished government career. And
indeed, unless she tells us otherwise, we should assume that this is so.

But we still need to account for the fact that the Armenian Minister of
Education and Science and his deputy have both made appearances as featured
speakers at Wikimedia Armenia events (along with similar appearances by the
country's president, prime minister and minister of culture).[1][2][3]

These politicians are, at however many levels' remove, Susanna's bosses in
her professional life if she is a manager at the State Committee of
Science. And they cannot be unaware of her role, given that she introduced
them at the events where they spoke.

So I would like to hear from Susanna how easy it would be for her to
disobey direct instructions from her superiors related to her Wikimedia
volunteer work, because *they* are clearly taking a keen interest in the
development of Wikimedia projects in Armenia.

There is another matter I would like to ask Susanna about. At the 2012
WikiConference in Yerevan, Susanna introduced Igor Klimko as a featured
speaker, according to the event's page on Meta[1]. Klimko was then the CEO
of Armenia Telephone Company ("ArmenTel"), the major provider of telephone
and broadband services in Armenia (part of the VimpelCom group).

Klimko was more recently named in media reports as the prime suspect in a
$500 million money laundering scandal.[4] Klimko, who has reportedly fled
to Moscow,[4] claimed last week to have acted on instructions of Armenia's
National Security Service.[5] The National Security Service denies that,
and the case is ongoing.[5]

I would be interested in hearing from Susanna whether Klimko financially
supported the Wikimedia Armenia effort, and if not, how he came to speak at
the 2012 WikiConference.

A number of people have mentioned the need to "assume good faith". Let's
not forget that we've had this kind of situation involving state leaders
before, where people were "assuming good faith" and got burnt.[6] The sheer
concentration of political leaders crowding in on the Wikimedia Armenia
effort was eerily reminiscent of that situation to me. But I should not
have said what I did, the way I said it, and I'm sorry.

So let's assume good faith of Susanna, but please let's also do due
diligence, in as respectful and kind manner as we can muster.

I've made Susanna aware of this discussion.

Andreas

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule
[3]
http://www.president.am/en/press-release/item/2015/06/19/President-Serzh-Sargsyan-visit-Wikimedia/
[4]
https://www.occrp.org/en/40-press-releases/presss-releases/4871-occrp-rise-euractiv-launch-internet-ownership-project
[5]
http://hetq.am/eng/news/65992/armentel-$500-million-swindle-employees-phone-messages-monitored.html
[6] http://www.eurasianet.org/node/72831

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Fæ  wrote:

> On 2 March 2016 at 23:15, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> ...
> > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> enthusiasm
> > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
> have
> > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of
> a
> > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
>
> I did have the pleasure of meeting Susanna a few years ago, and
> because she was a bit embarrassed about her hesitant spoken English, I
> took care to spend a little extra one to one time to encourage her to
> share a few views and explain what she had been up to in Armenia and
> her thoughts on getting a new chapter going in a small community.
> She's incredibly passionate about Wikipedia and its power to share
> information about Armenia and its people with the rest of the world.
> I'm sure that others would get the same impression if she made a video
> pitch rather than just the written word.
>
> I can be suckered by a skilled politician (though I'm more likely to
> get irritated!), however Susanna just came over as a terribly nice,
> completely genuine woman, with the type of energetic enthusiasm for
> open knowledge that it is a delight to encounter. This is an open
> election process, so if any questions were put to her through the
> election meta pages about possibly appearances of conflict of
> interest, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Fæ]

On 2 March 2016 at 23:15, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
...
> I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm
> for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have
> no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.

I did have the pleasure of meeting Susanna a few years ago, and
because she was a bit embarrassed about her hesitant spoken English, I
took care to spend a little extra one to one time to encourage her to
share a few views and explain what she had been up to in Armenia and
her thoughts on getting a new chapter going in a small community.
She's incredibly passionate about Wikipedia and its power to share
information about Armenia and its people with the rest of the world.
I'm sure that others would get the same impression if she made a video
pitch rather than just the written word.

I can be suckered by a skilled politician (though I'm more likely to
get irritated!), however Susanna just came over as a terribly nice,
completely genuine woman, with the type of energetic enthusiasm for
open knowledge that it is a delight to encounter. This is an open
election process, so if any questions were put to her through the
election meta pages about possibly appearances of conflict of
interest, funding etc., I have no doubt she would take them seriously
and try to address them up front.[1] Try doing that, and be polite
about it, I would regret her leaving the election process feeling her
fingers had been burnt just for daring to put her name forward.

Links
1. 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominations/Susanna_Mkrtchyan

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Pine W]

Speaking in general terms, I like the idea of requiring early and public
disclosures of conflicts of interests that seem reasonably likely.

Also speaking in general terms, I'm aware of a number of Wikimedians in the
United States and Canada who are directly employed by government
organizations, and who seem to be good about managing their potential
conflicts of interest. It certainly seems to me that being a government
employee should, in general terms, be seen as no more or less a potential
conflict than being an employee of Google or any number of other
organizations that have complicated relationships with Wikimedia. Sometimes
the interests of these organizations are compatible with Wikimedia, and
sometimes they're not. In my experience most people who proactively
disclose their affiliations are good about managing them. I would worry
much more about someone who conceals a potentially troublesome association
than someone who proactively discloses their associations a manner that's
reasonable for someone who's in their particular role in the Wikimedia
movement.

Pine

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Pete Forsyth  wrote:

> Cristian, when I said I heartily endorse what Asaf said, I meant exactly
> that. I agree with him, and with you, that accusatory email threads without
> evidence are toxic, and should be avoided.
>
> But questions about Conflict of Interest are appropriate. In a Board
> selection process, we do not merely Assume Good Faith, we Assess the
> Conditions Impacting Good Faith.
>
> Or at least, we should.
>
> -Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Cristian Consonni  >
> wrote:
>
> > 2016-03-03 2:06 GMT+01:00 Pete Forsyth :
> > > I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:
> > >
> > > When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes
> > > beyond Assume Good Faith.
> >
> > Yes, but please also note the difference between "assume good faith"
> > and the moral duty of refraining from making unsubstantiated claims of
> > being part of a corrupt and despotic system.
> >
> > Compare the last email from Andreas in this thread with the first two
> > and draw your own conclusions.
> >
> > I would like that everybody on this list tries to hold up to the (much
> > lower) second standard.
> >
> > You are of course welcome to ask tough questions to the candidates.
> > IMHO, tough questions are usually so, because they present evidence to
> > back their contents.
> >
> > C
> >
> > ___
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> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Pete Forsyth]

Cristian, when I said I heartily endorse what Asaf said, I meant exactly
that. I agree with him, and with you, that accusatory email threads without
evidence are toxic, and should be avoided.

But questions about Conflict of Interest are appropriate. In a Board
selection process, we do not merely Assume Good Faith, we Assess the
Conditions Impacting Good Faith.

Or at least, we should.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Cristian Consonni 
wrote:

> 2016-03-03 2:06 GMT+01:00 Pete Forsyth :
> > I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:
> >
> > When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes
> > beyond Assume Good Faith.
>
> Yes, but please also note the difference between "assume good faith"
> and the moral duty of refraining from making unsubstantiated claims of
> being part of a corrupt and despotic system.
>
> Compare the last email from Andreas in this thread with the first two
> and draw your own conclusions.
>
> I would like that everybody on this list tries to hold up to the (much
> lower) second standard.
>
> You are of course welcome to ask tough questions to the candidates.
> IMHO, tough questions are usually so, because they present evidence to
> back their contents.
>
> C
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Cristian Consonni]

2016-03-03 2:06 GMT+01:00 Pete Forsyth :
> I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:
>
> When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes
> beyond Assume Good Faith.

Yes, but please also note the difference between "assume good faith"
and the moral duty of refraining from making unsubstantiated claims of
being part of a corrupt and despotic system.

Compare the last email from Andreas in this thread with the first two
and draw your own conclusions.

I would like that everybody on this list tries to hold up to the (much
lower) second standard.

You are of course welcome to ask tough questions to the candidates.
IMHO, tough questions are usually so, because they present evidence to
back their contents.

C

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Pete Forsyth]

I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:

When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes
beyond Assume Good Faith. Ultimately, if appointed, a Trustee will need to
disclose any Conflicts of Interest. But those disclosures, as I understand
it, are not public; and waiting until the moment of appointment is less
than ideal.

I believe all candidates should be asked tough questions about possible
COI. This would have included me, when I ran last summer; I was asked some
good questions in private, but the public questioning was not very
substantive.[1] It should also apply to those appointed directly to the
board -- hopefully, the board has processes to assess COI prior to
appointment and required disclosure.

The traditional structure of the questioning on Meta Wiki is not especially
conducive to this; because every candidate's situation is unique. I believe
questions on COI should be tailored to each candidate's resume, not merely
asked as an abstract question. This might be a good issue for the election
committees to consider.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_elections/Board_elections/2015/Questions/1#Conflict_of_Interest_disclosure

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
> > Asaf,
> >
> > I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said
> > that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.
> >
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> > Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under
> > the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who
> along
> > with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured
> speaker
> > at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of
> Wikimedia
> > Armenia.[1][2]
> >
> > I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.
> >
>
> I think it's fair to say any contact with a government (or similarly
> powerful entity) is *potentially* concerning.  But between potentially
> concerning and actually concerning, there is the all-too-crucial need for
> substantive evidence or cause for concern.
>
> As has been pointed out, quite a few Wikipedians are or were part of the
> civil service or otherwise close to powerful people in their regimes.  So
> long as there is no reason to suspect they are not managing their potential
> conflict of interest, we must assume good faith.
>
>A.
> --
> Asaf Bartov
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
> https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Asaf Bartov]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Asaf,
>
> I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said
> that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.
>

Thank you.


> Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under
> the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along
> with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker
> at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia
> Armenia.[1][2]
>
> I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.
>

I think it's fair to say any contact with a government (or similarly
powerful entity) is *potentially* concerning.  But between potentially
concerning and actually concerning, there is the all-too-crucial need for
substantive evidence or cause for concern.

As has been pointed out, quite a few Wikipedians are or were part of the
civil service or otherwise close to powerful people in their regimes.  So
long as there is no reason to suspect they are not managing their potential
conflict of interest, we must assume good faith.

   A.
-- 
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation 

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Andreas Kolbe]

Asaf,

I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said
that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.

Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under
the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along
with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker
at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia
Armenia.[1][2]

I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.

Andreas

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in Armenia
> since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants officer.
> During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian, building
> community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their best work,
> and building partnerships with cultural institutions as well as government
> in her country.  I have had the pleasure of visiting Armenia last year and
> seeing up close one of Susanna's impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as
> well as attending and speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national
> archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.
>
> Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's commitment to
> movement values, *despite* working in a country struggling with
> corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and relatively weak democratic
> discipline.  Indeed, I have personally witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts
> at co-optation of Wikimedia Armenia's work.
>
> I encourage Andreas to retract his accusations ("clearly" etc.).
> Expressing a concern that there *might* be government interference was
> perhaps legitimate, but proceeding to besmirch Susanna and her work without
> evidence is unacceptable.
>
>Asaf
>
> [1] let us remember countries in the west struggle with tremendous
> corruption too, albeit manifested more financially than ideologically.
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Cristian Consonni  >
> wrote:
>
> > 2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> > > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of
> her.
> > > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> > enthusiasm
> > > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
> > have
> > > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part
> of
> > a
> > > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > 2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> > > Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  Sometimes a
> > > cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather
> > > extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
> > had
> > > a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > 2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan :
> > > Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level
> > > government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm
> > > asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that
> because
> > > she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
> > that
> > > Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
> >
> > Andreas,
> >
> > You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely
> > unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not
> > knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
> >
> > The only person that thinks that  "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a
> > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
> >
> > As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic
> > and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you
> > have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the
> > fact that Susanna is Armenian.
> >
> > The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in
> > the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be
> > volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the
> > Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a
> > grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small,
> > flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through
> > its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was
> > a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single
> > moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of
> > Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never
> > there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of
> > the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Gnangarra]

so much for  "Assume good faith"

On 3 March 2016 at 08:31, Cristian Consonni  wrote:

> 2016-03-03 1:20 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> > I think that top-level government interference in Wikipedia harms people
> in
> > the movement and its mission, especially if the government in question
> has
> > a less than stellar press freedom record.
>
> Yes, of course, but until you have any proof to link what Susanna and
> Wikimedia Armenia have being doing you are "which-hunting" exactly as
> those Soviet governments did in the past with the people that opposed
> them.
>
> C
>
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>



-- 
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Cristian Consonni]

2016-03-03 1:20 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> I think that top-level government interference in Wikipedia harms people in
> the movement and its mission, especially if the government in question has
> a less than stellar press freedom record.

Yes, of course, but until you have any proof to link what Susanna and
Wikimedia Armenia have being doing you are "which-hunting" exactly as
those Soviet governments did in the past with the people that opposed
them.

C

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Asaf Bartov]

I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in Armenia
since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants officer.
During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian, building
community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their best work,
and building partnerships with cultural institutions as well as government
in her country.  I have had the pleasure of visiting Armenia last year and
seeing up close one of Susanna's impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as
well as attending and speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national
archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.

Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's commitment to
movement values, *despite* working in a country struggling with
corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and relatively weak democratic
discipline.  Indeed, I have personally witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts
at co-optation of Wikimedia Armenia's work.

I encourage Andreas to retract his accusations ("clearly" etc.).
Expressing a concern that there *might* be government interference was
perhaps legitimate, but proceeding to besmirch Susanna and her work without
evidence is unacceptable.

   Asaf

[1] let us remember countries in the west struggle with tremendous
corruption too, albeit manifested more financially than ideologically.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Cristian Consonni 
wrote:

> 2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> enthusiasm
> > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
> have
> > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of
> a
> > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
>
> [...]
>
> 2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> > Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  Sometimes a
> > cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather
> > extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
> had
> > a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
>
> [...]
>
> 2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan :
> > Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level
> > government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm
> > asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because
> > she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
> that
> > Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
>
> Andreas,
>
> You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely
> unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not
> knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
>
> The only person that thinks that  "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
>
> As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic
> and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you
> have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the
> fact that Susanna is Armenian.
>
> The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in
> the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be
> volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the
> Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a
> grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small,
> flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through
> its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was
> a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single
> moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of
> Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never
> there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of
> the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting.
> In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time)
> there were and there are several avenues to criticize  - also
> privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes -  what the
> chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a
> single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are
> making from nothing.
>
> Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia
> Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.
>
> I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in
> my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.
>
> Cristian
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_round2/Wikimedia_Armenia/Proposal_form#Praise_and_one_question
> [2]
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Andreas Kolbe]

Cristian,

I think that top-level government interference in Wikipedia harms people in
the movement and its mission, especially if the government in question has
a less than stellar press freedom record.

Andreas

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Cristian Consonni 
wrote:

> 2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> enthusiasm
> > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
> have
> > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of
> a
> > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
>
> [...]
>
> 2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> > Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  Sometimes a
> > cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather
> > extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
> had
> > a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
>
> [...]
>
> 2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan :
> > Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level
> > government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm
> > asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because
> > she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
> that
> > Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
>
> Andreas,
>
> You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely
> unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not
> knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
>
> The only person that thinks that  "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
>
> As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic
> and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you
> have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the
> fact that Susanna is Armenian.
>
> The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in
> the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be
> volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the
> Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a
> grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small,
> flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through
> its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was
> a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single
> moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of
> Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never
> there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of
> the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting.
> In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time)
> there were and there are several avenues to criticize  - also
> privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes -  what the
> chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a
> single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are
> making from nothing.
>
> Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia
> Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.
>
> I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in
> my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.
>
> Cristian
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_round2/Wikimedia_Armenia/Proposal_form#Praise_and_one_question
> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2014-2015_round_2#Wikimedia_Armenia
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Cristian Consonni]

2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm
> for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have
> no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.

[...]

2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  Sometimes a
> cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather
> extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even had
> a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?

[...]

2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan :
> Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level
> government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm
> asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because
> she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia that
> Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?

Andreas,

You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely
unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not
knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.

The only person that thinks that  "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.

As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic
and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you
have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the
fact that Susanna is Armenian.

The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in
the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be
volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the
Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a
grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small,
flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through
its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was
a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single
moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of
Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never
there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of
the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting.
In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time)
there were and there are several avenues to criticize  - also
privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes -  what the
chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a
single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are
making from nothing.

Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia
Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.

I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in
my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.

Cristian

[1] 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_round2/Wikimedia_Armenia/Proposal_form#Praise_and_one_question
[2] 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2014-2015_round_2#Wikimedia_Armenia

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Craig Franklin]

Andreas,

Unless you have specific evidence that Susanna has been specifically
involved with anything untoward, you are smearing with guilt by association
and creating your own chilling effect, and you would owe Susanna a
retraction and apology.

Cheers,
Craig Franklin

On 3 March 2016 at 09:15, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
>  wrote:
>
> > Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a
> > state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who
> employ
> > researchers.
> >
> > I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member
> (that
> > is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not
> > legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by
> the
> > Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
>
>
> Yaroslav,
>
> In and of itself, the fact that Susanna is a government employee doesn't
> worry me either. Present WMF board member Alice Wiegand is a government
> employee too, if you will (she works as an aide to the mayor of a small
> town in Germany, according to her write-up on the WMF website).
>
> The difference between Alice's situation and Susanna's is that the Armenian
> president turned up for the opening of the Wikimedia Armenia office in
> Yerevan.[1] The German president, in contrast, has probably never even
> heard of Alice. He certainly didn't attend when Wikimedia Germany was
> launched, nor did he have members of his cabinet tell the German public on
> national TV that it was their duty to edit the German Wikipedia.
>
> The Armenian Wikipedia initiative is a matter of direct and personal
> interest to the President and government ministers of Armenia, a country
> that suppresses political dissent. It is impossible to escape the
> conclusion that the initiative is directed by them. This will be crystal
> clear to anyone in Armenia who has watched the YouTube video:[2] the
> Armenian Wikipedia will be perceived as a project of the Armenian
> government.
>
> The chilling effect on opposition sympathisers and dissidents who might
> otherwise like to participate in an open encyclopedia project is monstrous.
> The likelihood that the Armenian Wikipedia will flourish under such
> circumstances and develop into a politically neutral reference work is nil.
>
> I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm
> for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have
> no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
>
> Does it make sense to you that we cheer when Wikipedians stand up to the
> government in France, which is a fairly democratic and open country, and
> cheer equally when far more repressive regimes than that of France take
> such an intense interest in their national-language Wikipedia?
>
> What would you say if Putin started to endorse Wikimedia Russia and
> attended its events, and members of his cabinet told the public to edit
> Wikipedia as part of their civic duty?
>
> Andreas
>
> [1]
>
> http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/06/19/president-sargsyan-attends-opening-of-wikimedia-armenia-office-in-yerevan/
> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Nathan]

Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level
government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm
asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because
she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia that
Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Risker]

Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  Sometimes a
cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather
extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even had
a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?

Risker/Anne

On 2 March 2016 at 18:15, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
>  wrote:
>
> > Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a
> > state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who
> employ
> > researchers.
> >
> > I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member
> (that
> > is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not
> > legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by
> the
> > Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
>
>
> Yaroslav,
>
> In and of itself, the fact that Susanna is a government employee doesn't
> worry me either. Present WMF board member Alice Wiegand is a government
> employee too, if you will (she works as an aide to the mayor of a small
> town in Germany, according to her write-up on the WMF website).
>
> The difference between Alice's situation and Susanna's is that the Armenian
> president turned up for the opening of the Wikimedia Armenia office in
> Yerevan.[1] The German president, in contrast, has probably never even
> heard of Alice. He certainly didn't attend when Wikimedia Germany was
> launched, nor did he have members of his cabinet tell the German public on
> national TV that it was their duty to edit the German Wikipedia.
>
> The Armenian Wikipedia initiative is a matter of direct and personal
> interest to the President and government ministers of Armenia, a country
> that suppresses political dissent. It is impossible to escape the
> conclusion that the initiative is directed by them. This will be crystal
> clear to anyone in Armenia who has watched the YouTube video:[2] the
> Armenian Wikipedia will be perceived as a project of the Armenian
> government.
>
> The chilling effect on opposition sympathisers and dissidents who might
> otherwise like to participate in an open encyclopedia project is monstrous.
> The likelihood that the Armenian Wikipedia will flourish under such
> circumstances and develop into a politically neutral reference work is nil.
>
> I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm
> for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have
> no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
>
> Does it make sense to you that we cheer when Wikipedians stand up to the
> government in France, which is a fairly democratic and open country, and
> cheer equally when far more repressive regimes than that of France take
> such an intense interest in their national-language Wikipedia?
>
> What would you say if Putin started to endorse Wikimedia Russia and
> attended its events, and members of his cabinet told the public to edit
> Wikipedia as part of their civic duty?
>
> Andreas
>
> [1]
>
> http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/06/19/president-sargsyan-attends-opening-of-wikimedia-armenia-office-in-yerevan/
> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
 wrote:

> Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a
> state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ
> researchers.
>
> I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member (that
> is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not
> legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by the
> Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav


Yaroslav,

In and of itself, the fact that Susanna is a government employee doesn't
worry me either. Present WMF board member Alice Wiegand is a government
employee too, if you will (she works as an aide to the mayor of a small
town in Germany, according to her write-up on the WMF website).

The difference between Alice's situation and Susanna's is that the Armenian
president turned up for the opening of the Wikimedia Armenia office in
Yerevan.[1] The German president, in contrast, has probably never even
heard of Alice. He certainly didn't attend when Wikimedia Germany was
launched, nor did he have members of his cabinet tell the German public on
national TV that it was their duty to edit the German Wikipedia.

The Armenian Wikipedia initiative is a matter of direct and personal
interest to the President and government ministers of Armenia, a country
that suppresses political dissent. It is impossible to escape the
conclusion that the initiative is directed by them. This will be crystal
clear to anyone in Armenia who has watched the YouTube video:[2] the
Armenian Wikipedia will be perceived as a project of the Armenian
government.

The chilling effect on opposition sympathisers and dissidents who might
otherwise like to participate in an open encyclopedia project is monstrous.
The likelihood that the Armenian Wikipedia will flourish under such
circumstances and develop into a politically neutral reference work is nil.

I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm
for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have
no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.

Does it make sense to you that we cheer when Wikipedians stand up to the
government in France, which is a fairly democratic and open country, and
cheer equally when far more repressive regimes than that of France take
such an intense interest in their national-language Wikipedia?

What would you say if Putin started to endorse Wikimedia Russia and
attended its events, and members of his cabinet told the public to edit
Wikipedia as part of their civic duty?

Andreas

[1]
http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/06/19/president-sargsyan-attends-opening-of-wikimedia-armenia-office-in-yerevan/
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:35 PM, geni  wrote:

> On 2 March 2016 at 19:58, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> > Western countries don't really have a tradition of state-published
> > encyclopedias,
>
> Wales is not a western country?
>
> https://en.wikipedia
> 


​What about states inside of Western countries?

http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/content/about-eoa

Really, the insinuations behind this thread are just absurd. We are to now
assume that all agendas are nefarious? Because everyone has one, even you,
Andreas, in posting this.

-- 
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Mardetanha]

so now we are judging a candidate because his/her country or government ?
Susana and her team are doing really really great job, I wonder how unfair
a person  could judge a respected wikimedian.



Mardetanha

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 11:59 PM, Ziko van Dijk  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I cannot say much about the specific case, but in general: in small
> countries it is not unusual that there is only one national
> encyclopedia, and that it is directly or indirectly published or
> supported by the government or an institution close to the government.
>
> A good example is the Store Norske from Norway.
>
> http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/2.1719/kein-geld-fuer-lexika-wer-rettet-das-grosse-norwegische-1639090.html
>
> So it is not necessary to think immediately and exclusively about the
> Soviet Union.
>
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
>
> 2016-03-02 21:11 GMT+01:00 Yaroslav M. Blanter :
> > On 2016-03-02 20:58, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government
> >> employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense
> >> writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the
> >> German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an
> >> outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on
> >> human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not
> even
> >> arise.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a
> state
> > employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ
> > researchers.
> >
> > I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member
> (that
> > is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not
> > legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by
> the
> > Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[geni]

On 2 March 2016 at 19:58, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> Western countries don't really have a tradition of state-published
> encyclopedias,

Wales is not a western country?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopaedia_of_Wales


> If we had the US Secretary of Defense
> writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army,

Who exactly do you think writes our articles about US military subjects?

> or had employees of the
> German government running Wikimedia Deutschland,


Both of User:Juergen.friedrich's employers are public universities.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Ziko van Dijk]

Hello,

I cannot say much about the specific case, but in general: in small
countries it is not unusual that there is only one national
encyclopedia, and that it is directly or indirectly published or
supported by the government or an institution close to the government.

A good example is the Store Norske from Norway.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/2.1719/kein-geld-fuer-lexika-wer-rettet-das-grosse-norwegische-1639090.html

So it is not necessary to think immediately and exclusively about the
Soviet Union.

Kind regards
Ziko


2016-03-02 21:11 GMT+01:00 Yaroslav M. Blanter :
> On 2016-03-02 20:58, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government
>> employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense
>> writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the
>> German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an
>> outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on
>> human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not even
>> arise.
>>
>>
>
> Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a state
> employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ
> researchers.
>
> I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member (that
> is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not
> legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by the
> Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On 2016-03-02 20:58, Andreas Kolbe wrote:



Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government
employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense
writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the
German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an
outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records 
on
human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not 
even

arise.




Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a 
state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who 
employ researchers.


I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member 
(that is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board 
as not legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was 
employed by the Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.


Cheers
Yaroslav

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[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Andreas Kolbe]

A number of nominations have now come in for the affiliate-selected board
seats.[1]

One of the people who have put their names forward to date is Susanna
Mkrtchyan of Wikimedia Armenia. In her nomination statement[2] Susanna
refers to the 2014 "One Armenian, one Article" Wikipedia campaign.

The BBC reported[3] at the time that the campaign was government-supported.
The related YouTube video (in Armenian with English subtitles)[9] features
appeals for people to edit Wikipedia from (in order of appearance):

1. The Armenian Defense Minister, who says he's joining the "One Armenian,
one Article" marathon by editing an article about the Armenian army

2. The Armenian Education and Science Minister, who says creating Wikipedia
content in Armenian is part of Armenians' "duty toward our nation and
country" and indicates he will personally participate too

3. The Head of Armenian Public Radio

4. An Armenian TV announcer

5. The Head of Matenadaran Archive

Now, according to Freedom House,[4] all is not well in Armenia. Corruption
is widespread in government and law enforcement. The press is not free.[5]
Journalists have to "contend with violence and harassment", although
"Independent outlets continued to take advantage of the country’s
relatively open online space."

Clearly, the Internet presently provides a platform for opposition voices
that have trouble making themselves heard in conventional media, a fact
that the government cannot be terribly pleased about.

Returning to Susanna's nomination statement, she says that Wikimedia
Armenia has signed a contract with the "Armenian Encyclopedia Authorities"
to re-use their content.

Western countries don't really have a tradition of state-published
encyclopedias, but the Soviet Union had the Great Soviet Encyclopedia for
about sixty-five years. It was an instrument of state propaganda. Trying to
shoehorn national encyclopedias modelled on the Great Soviet Encyclopedia
into Wikipedia is a thought that seems to occur quite naturally to
politicians in ex-Soviet states, many of whom started their political
careers and held office in the days of the Soviet Union. It is a good way
of exercising control over the Internet, just like the Great Soviet
Encyclopedia was designed to shape intellectual life in the USSR.

According to her LinkedIn profile[7], in her professional life Susanna is a
Sector Manager at the State Committee of Science, which is part of the
Ministry of Education and Science of Armenia.[8]

Susanna further notes that she received an honourable mention from Jimmy
Wales at Wikimania 2015's Wikipedian of the Year award, a fact duly noted
at [[Wikipedia:Wikipedian of the Year]].[6]

Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government
employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense
writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the
German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an
outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on
human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not even
arise.

What is different about ex-Soviet countries that makes this a good thing to
do?

Andreas

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominations
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominations/Susanna_Mkrtchyan
[3] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28588188
[4] https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/armenia
[5] https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2015/armenia
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedian_of_the_year
[7] http://archive.is/kmcEs
[8] http://www.scs.am/en/home
[9] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw
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