Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-16 Thread Samuel Klein
This would be a wonderful general feature, for setting a collection of
preferences on signup.

SJ

On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 8:11 AM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se wrote:
 From Charles original questions I guess that he would be satisified with
 something like:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLoginenablevisualeditor=1


 which should enable the Visual Editor for users signing up through that
 link. If it is possible or not to do that I have no idea.

 *Med vänliga hälsningar,
 Jan Ainali*

 Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida
 0729 - 67 29 48






 2013/10/15 Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net

 Hear hear.

 I know this is a battle that the Foundation's engineers can't possibly win,
 given the circumstances which VE was moved from opt-out to opt-in on enwiki
 (see

 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)diff=prevoldid=574251354
 ,
 for those who aren't aware).  Turn it on, turn it off; either way someone
 gets upset.

 From a pure technical standpoint, is it possible to put a checkbox on the
 new user page or something so that new users can turn it on without having
 to delve deep into the untamed wilderness that is the user preferences
 page?

 Cheers,
 Craig


 On 15 October 2013 21:54, Richard Nevell richard.nev...@wikimedia.org.uk
 wrote:

  I firmly agree with that, taking a detour to preferences when training
 new
  editors isn't my preferred method.
 
  Richard
 
 
  On 15 October 2013 12:47, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl wrote:
 
   Hello,
  
   I think that for beginners things must be as simple and clear as
   possible. Make them manipulate the preferences at the beginning of the
   session is already complicated and a waste of time. Don't forget that
   beginners already have to learn so many things quickly, so the more
   you can reduce, the better.
   Actually I'd prefer to have a model wiki that looks like Wikipedia but
   is best suited to use in trainings.
  
   Kind regards
   Ziko
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 
 
   Dr. Ziko van Dijk
   voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
  
   Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
   Postbus 167
   3500 AD Utrecht
   http://wikimedia.nl
  
  
 
 
  
  
   2013/10/15 Charles Andrès charles.andres.w...@gmail.com:
Thanks, but in FR.Wikipedia.org you only have the opt-out option
   (disable visual editor) :-(
   
Charles
   
   
___
I use this email for mailing list only.
   
Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
   
Le 15 oct. 2013 à 10:10, Enock Seth Nyamador kwadzo...@gmail.com a
   écrit :
   
Hello Charles,
   
I don't think there is a way to for this in the registration
 process.
   
To enable or disable Visual Editor. Login
   
1. Go to --- Preferences -- Click Editing tab.
2. At the bottom of Editing page, Check or uncheck the box beside
   Enable VisualEditor (only in the main and user namespaces)
   
   
OR
   
Follow this link
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing
Then repeat step 2 above.
   
Hope it helps.
   
Thanks.
   
Regards,
Enock S. Nyamador.
   
---
Writer | Wikimedian
Planning Wikimedia Ghana | About.me | Blog
C: +233 (0)27 565 7589
   
   
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Charles Andres 
   charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:
Dear all,
   
In our new education program with youngs in scholar difficulties, we
   have the problem that only half of the new accounts have the visual
  editor
   activated, it's quite annoying to have two teach two way of editing.
   
Is there a trick to force the activation of Visual Editor for a
   specific user?
   
Thanks
   
Charles
   
___
Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
   
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-16 Thread David Gerard
On 16 October 2013 06:08, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote:

 Chris, as Ziko put it. Would you like a novice driver with a Learner's
 permit to drive on a Crowded street or a High speed expressway or in a
 deserted ground?
 Visual Editor for newbies has caused a lot of pages to 'break' as I have
 noticed.


YMMV. For simple stuff it's actually great and has been wonderful for
casual editors I've asked to try it. The problems really come on
complicated pages.

If they're creating completely fresh articles, I don't anticipate huge problems.

If problems do happen, the VisualEditor tag is monitored closely
enough they'll be picked up as bugs.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-16 Thread Risker
On 16 October 2013 07:26, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote:

 This would be a wonderful general feature, for setting a collection of
 preferences on signup.

 SJ


In theory, I agree. Realistically, most new editors don't know the
difference between A and B, or how it will affect their editing, so I don't
know that it is really all that helpful.

Risker
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-16 Thread Risker
On 16 October 2013 07:31, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 16 October 2013 06:08, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in
 wrote:

  Chris, as Ziko put it. Would you like a novice driver with a Learner's
  permit to drive on a Crowded street or a High speed expressway or in a
  deserted ground?
  Visual Editor for newbies has caused a lot of pages to 'break' as I have
  noticed.


 YMMV. For simple stuff it's actually great and has been wonderful for
 casual editors I've asked to try it. The problems really come on
 complicated pages.

 If they're creating completely fresh articles, I don't anticipate huge
 problems.

 If problems do happen, the VisualEditor tag is monitored closely
 enough they'll be picked up as bugs.


I think the problem when VE is turned on as default production editor on a
busy project is that it is close to impossible for the small number of
users who routinely monitor recent changes (or those who are monitoring VE)
to catch all of the problems.  Instead of just reviewing an individual
edit, we have learned that edits often had effects further down in pages,
or those that didn't really show up properly in the diff window, which
meant having to look at the entire page before determining whether there
was a problem.  As I recall, certain common errors that happened in July
were still being identified and fixed as late as mid-September on enwiki,
and we have a pretty active Recent Changes patrol and a fair number of
people monitoring VE edits.  With the much reduced load now, it is much
easier to spot these problems.

Risker
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-16 Thread Andrew Gray
This is a really interesting idea - not just for VE but for other
new-user tools as well.

CCing to Steven, who's been doing some work with the signup interface
- is this sort of hook technically practical?

Andrew.

On 15 October 2013 13:11, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se wrote:
 From Charles original questions I guess that he would be satisified with
 something like:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLoginenablevisualeditor=1


 which should enable the Visual Editor for users signing up through that
 link. If it is possible or not to do that I have no idea.

 *Med vänliga hälsningar,
 Jan Ainali*

 Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida
 0729 - 67 29 48






 2013/10/15 Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net

 Hear hear.

 I know this is a battle that the Foundation's engineers can't possibly win,
 given the circumstances which VE was moved from opt-out to opt-in on enwiki
 (see

 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)diff=prevoldid=574251354
 ,
 for those who aren't aware).  Turn it on, turn it off; either way someone
 gets upset.

 From a pure technical standpoint, is it possible to put a checkbox on the
 new user page or something so that new users can turn it on without having
 to delve deep into the untamed wilderness that is the user preferences
 page?

 Cheers,
 Craig


 On 15 October 2013 21:54, Richard Nevell richard.nev...@wikimedia.org.uk
 wrote:

  I firmly agree with that, taking a detour to preferences when training
 new
  editors isn't my preferred method.
 
  Richard
 
 
  On 15 October 2013 12:47, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl wrote:
 
   Hello,
  
   I think that for beginners things must be as simple and clear as
   possible. Make them manipulate the preferences at the beginning of the
   session is already complicated and a waste of time. Don't forget that
   beginners already have to learn so many things quickly, so the more
   you can reduce, the better.
   Actually I'd prefer to have a model wiki that looks like Wikipedia but
   is best suited to use in trainings.
  
   Kind regards
   Ziko
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 
 
   Dr. Ziko van Dijk
   voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
  
   Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
   Postbus 167
   3500 AD Utrecht
   http://wikimedia.nl
  
  
 
 
  
  
   2013/10/15 Charles Andrès charles.andres.w...@gmail.com:
Thanks, but in FR.Wikipedia.org you only have the opt-out option
   (disable visual editor) :-(
   
Charles
   
   
___
I use this email for mailing list only.
   
Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
   
Le 15 oct. 2013 à 10:10, Enock Seth Nyamador kwadzo...@gmail.com a
   écrit :
   
Hello Charles,
   
I don't think there is a way to for this in the registration
 process.
   
To enable or disable Visual Editor. Login
   
1. Go to --- Preferences -- Click Editing tab.
2. At the bottom of Editing page, Check or uncheck the box beside
   Enable VisualEditor (only in the main and user namespaces)
   
   
OR
   
Follow this link
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing
Then repeat step 2 above.
   
Hope it helps.
   
Thanks.
   
Regards,
Enock S. Nyamador.
   
---
Writer | Wikimedian
Planning Wikimedia Ghana | About.me | Blog
C: +233 (0)27 565 7589
   
   
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Charles Andres 
   charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:
Dear all,
   
In our new education program with youngs in scholar difficulties, we
   have the problem that only half of the new accounts have the visual
  editor
   activated, it's quite annoying to have two teach two way of editing.
   
Is there a trick to force the activation of Visual Editor for a
   specific user?
   
Thanks
   
Charles
   
___
Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
   
___
Education mailing list
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-16 Thread Steven Walling
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.ukwrote:

 This is a really interesting idea - not just for VE but for other
 new-user tools as well.

 CCing to Steven, who's been doing some work with the signup interface
 - is this sort of hook technically practical?

 Andrew.


Yes, technically speaking it is probably not difficult to set VisualEditor
opt-in on the basis of a URL parameter. How/if we should implement it that
way, I leave up to James and the VE team.

To be honest, if we think VE is more advantageous for new editors, we
should be delivering by default for all of them, not selectively. The
design team has been working on concepts for a design where the switch
between wikitext and visual editing is done after hitting Edit, allowing us
to consolidate the current confusing situation with two buttons. This is
probably the most elegant solution. It makes room for individual users
potentially setting their default edit mode to one or the other, reduces
extra button clutter, etc.


-- 
Steven Walling,
Product Manager
https://wikimediafoundation.org/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-15 Thread Charles Andrès
Thanks, but in FR.Wikipedia.org you only have the opt-out option (disable 
visual editor) :-(

Charles


___
I use this email for mailing list only.

Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch

Le 15 oct. 2013 à 10:10, Enock Seth Nyamador kwadzo...@gmail.com a écrit :

 Hello Charles,
 
 I don't think there is a way to for this in the registration process.
 
 To enable or disable Visual Editor. Login
  
 1. Go to --- Preferences -- Click Editing tab. 
 2. At the bottom of Editing page, Check or uncheck the box beside Enable 
 VisualEditor (only in the main and user namespaces)
 
 
 OR 
 
 Follow this link 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing
 Then repeat step 2 above.
 
 Hope it helps.
 
 Thanks.
 
 Regards,
 Enock S. Nyamador.
 
 ---
 Writer | Wikimedian
 Planning Wikimedia Ghana | About.me | Blog
 C: +233 (0)27 565 7589
 
 
 On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Charles Andres 
 charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:
 Dear all,
 
 In our new education program with youngs in scholar difficulties, we have the 
 problem that only half of the new accounts have the visual editor activated, 
 it's quite annoying to have two teach two way of editing.
 
 Is there a trick to force the activation of Visual Editor for a specific user?
 
 Thanks
 
 Charles
 
 ___
 Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
 Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
 www.wikimedia.ch
 Skype: charles.andres.wmch
 IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
 
 ___
 Education mailing list
 educat...@lists.wikimedia.org
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/education
 
 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-15 Thread Craig Franklin
Hear hear.

I know this is a battle that the Foundation's engineers can't possibly win,
given the circumstances which VE was moved from opt-out to opt-in on enwiki
(see
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)diff=prevoldid=574251354,
for those who aren't aware).  Turn it on, turn it off; either way someone
gets upset.

From a pure technical standpoint, is it possible to put a checkbox on the
new user page or something so that new users can turn it on without having
to delve deep into the untamed wilderness that is the user preferences page?

Cheers,
Craig


On 15 October 2013 21:54, Richard Nevell richard.nev...@wikimedia.org.ukwrote:

 I firmly agree with that, taking a detour to preferences when training new
 editors isn't my preferred method.

 Richard


 On 15 October 2013 12:47, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl wrote:

  Hello,
 
  I think that for beginners things must be as simple and clear as
  possible. Make them manipulate the preferences at the beginning of the
  session is already complicated and a waste of time. Don't forget that
  beginners already have to learn so many things quickly, so the more
  you can reduce, the better.
  Actually I'd prefer to have a model wiki that looks like Wikipedia but
  is best suited to use in trainings.
 
  Kind regards
  Ziko
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  Dr. Ziko van Dijk
  voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
 
  Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
  Postbus 167
  3500 AD Utrecht
  http://wikimedia.nl
 
 
 
 
 
  2013/10/15 Charles Andrès charles.andres.w...@gmail.com:
   Thanks, but in FR.Wikipedia.org you only have the opt-out option
  (disable visual editor) :-(
  
   Charles
  
  
   ___
   I use this email for mailing list only.
  
   Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
   Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
   www.wikimedia.ch
   Skype: charles.andres.wmch
   IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
  
   Le 15 oct. 2013 à 10:10, Enock Seth Nyamador kwadzo...@gmail.com a
  écrit :
  
   Hello Charles,
  
   I don't think there is a way to for this in the registration process.
  
   To enable or disable Visual Editor. Login
  
   1. Go to --- Preferences -- Click Editing tab.
   2. At the bottom of Editing page, Check or uncheck the box beside
  Enable VisualEditor (only in the main and user namespaces)
  
  
   OR
  
   Follow this link
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing
   Then repeat step 2 above.
  
   Hope it helps.
  
   Thanks.
  
   Regards,
   Enock S. Nyamador.
  
   ---
   Writer | Wikimedian
   Planning Wikimedia Ghana | About.me | Blog
   C: +233 (0)27 565 7589
  
  
   On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Charles Andres 
  charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:
   Dear all,
  
   In our new education program with youngs in scholar difficulties, we
  have the problem that only half of the new accounts have the visual
 editor
  activated, it's quite annoying to have two teach two way of editing.
  
   Is there a trick to force the activation of Visual Editor for a
  specific user?
  
   Thanks
  
   Charles
  
   ___
   Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
   Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
   www.wikimedia.ch
   Skype: charles.andres.wmch
   IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
  
   ___
   Education mailing list
   educat...@lists.wikimedia.org
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 --
 Richard Nevell
 Wikimedia UK
 +44 (0) 20 7065 0753

 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
 Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
 Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
 United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
 movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
 operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

 *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
 over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list
 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-15 Thread Jan Ainali
From Charles original questions I guess that he would be satisified with
something like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLoginenablevisualeditor=1


which should enable the Visual Editor for users signing up through that
link. If it is possible or not to do that I have no idea.

*Med vänliga hälsningar,
Jan Ainali*

Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida
0729 - 67 29 48






2013/10/15 Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net

 Hear hear.

 I know this is a battle that the Foundation's engineers can't possibly win,
 given the circumstances which VE was moved from opt-out to opt-in on enwiki
 (see

 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)diff=prevoldid=574251354
 ,
 for those who aren't aware).  Turn it on, turn it off; either way someone
 gets upset.

 From a pure technical standpoint, is it possible to put a checkbox on the
 new user page or something so that new users can turn it on without having
 to delve deep into the untamed wilderness that is the user preferences
 page?

 Cheers,
 Craig


 On 15 October 2013 21:54, Richard Nevell richard.nev...@wikimedia.org.uk
 wrote:

  I firmly agree with that, taking a detour to preferences when training
 new
  editors isn't my preferred method.
 
  Richard
 
 
  On 15 October 2013 12:47, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl wrote:
 
   Hello,
  
   I think that for beginners things must be as simple and clear as
   possible. Make them manipulate the preferences at the beginning of the
   session is already complicated and a waste of time. Don't forget that
   beginners already have to learn so many things quickly, so the more
   you can reduce, the better.
   Actually I'd prefer to have a model wiki that looks like Wikipedia but
   is best suited to use in trainings.
  
   Kind regards
   Ziko
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 
 
   Dr. Ziko van Dijk
   voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
  
   Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
   Postbus 167
   3500 AD Utrecht
   http://wikimedia.nl
  
  
 
 
  
  
   2013/10/15 Charles Andrès charles.andres.w...@gmail.com:
Thanks, but in FR.Wikipedia.org you only have the opt-out option
   (disable visual editor) :-(
   
Charles
   
   
___
I use this email for mailing list only.
   
Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
   
Le 15 oct. 2013 à 10:10, Enock Seth Nyamador kwadzo...@gmail.com a
   écrit :
   
Hello Charles,
   
I don't think there is a way to for this in the registration
 process.
   
To enable or disable Visual Editor. Login
   
1. Go to --- Preferences -- Click Editing tab.
2. At the bottom of Editing page, Check or uncheck the box beside
   Enable VisualEditor (only in the main and user namespaces)
   
   
OR
   
Follow this link
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing
Then repeat step 2 above.
   
Hope it helps.
   
Thanks.
   
Regards,
Enock S. Nyamador.
   
---
Writer | Wikimedian
Planning Wikimedia Ghana | About.me | Blog
C: +233 (0)27 565 7589
   
   
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Charles Andres 
   charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:
Dear all,
   
In our new education program with youngs in scholar difficulties, we
   have the problem that only half of the new accounts have the visual
  editor
   activated, it's quite annoying to have two teach two way of editing.
   
Is there a trick to force the activation of Visual Editor for a
   specific user?
   
Thanks
   
Charles
   
___
Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
   
___
Education mailing list
educat...@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/education
   
   
   
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  --
  Richard Nevell
  

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-15 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan
Honestly speaking I'd disable Visual Editor for new users. They have a
tendency of making errors.



On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se wrote:

 From Charles original questions I guess that he would be satisified with
 something like:


 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLoginenablevisualeditor=1


 which should enable the Visual Editor for users signing up through that
 link. If it is possible or not to do that I have no idea.

 *Med vänliga hälsningar,
 Jan Ainali*

 Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida
 
 0729 - 67 29 48






 2013/10/15 Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net

  Hear hear.
 
  I know this is a battle that the Foundation's engineers can't possibly
 win,
  given the circumstances which VE was moved from opt-out to opt-in on
 enwiki
  (see
 
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)diff=prevoldid=574251354
  ,
  for those who aren't aware).  Turn it on, turn it off; either way someone
  gets upset.
 
  From a pure technical standpoint, is it possible to put a checkbox on the
  new user page or something so that new users can turn it on without
 having
  to delve deep into the untamed wilderness that is the user preferences
  page?
 
  Cheers,
  Craig
 
 
  On 15 October 2013 21:54, Richard Nevell 
 richard.nev...@wikimedia.org.uk
  wrote:
 
   I firmly agree with that, taking a detour to preferences when training
  new
   editors isn't my preferred method.
  
   Richard
  
  
   On 15 October 2013 12:47, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl
 wrote:
  
Hello,
   
I think that for beginners things must be as simple and clear as
possible. Make them manipulate the preferences at the beginning of
 the
session is already complicated and a waste of time. Don't forget that
beginners already have to learn so many things quickly, so the more
you can reduce, the better.
Actually I'd prefer to have a model wiki that looks like Wikipedia
 but
is best suited to use in trainings.
   
Kind regards
Ziko
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  
 
 
Dr. Ziko van Dijk
voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
   
Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
Postbus 167
3500 AD Utrecht
http://wikimedia.nl
   
   
  
 
 
   
   
2013/10/15 Charles Andrès charles.andres.w...@gmail.com:
 Thanks, but in FR.Wikipedia.org you only have the opt-out option
(disable visual editor) :-(

 Charles


 ___
 I use this email for mailing list only.

 Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
 Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free knowledge
 –
 www.wikimedia.ch
 Skype: charles.andres.wmch
 IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch

 Le 15 oct. 2013 à 10:10, Enock Seth Nyamador kwadzo...@gmail.com
 a
écrit :

 Hello Charles,

 I don't think there is a way to for this in the registration
  process.

 To enable or disable Visual Editor. Login

 1. Go to --- Preferences -- Click Editing tab.
 2. At the bottom of Editing page, Check or uncheck the box beside
Enable VisualEditor (only in the main and user namespaces)


 OR

 Follow this link
   
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing
 Then repeat step 2 above.

 Hope it helps.

 Thanks.

 Regards,
 Enock S. Nyamador.

 ---
 Writer | Wikimedian
 Planning Wikimedia Ghana | About.me | Blog
 C: +233 (0)27 565 7589


 On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Charles Andres 
charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:
 Dear all,

 In our new education program with youngs in scholar difficulties,
 we
have the problem that only half of the new accounts have the visual
   editor
activated, it's quite annoying to have two teach two way of editing.

 Is there a trick to force the activation of Visual Editor for a
specific user?

 Thanks

 Charles

 ___
 Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
 Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free
 knowledge –
 www.wikimedia.ch
 Skype: charles.andres.wmch
 IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch

 ___
 Education mailing list
 educat...@lists.wikimedia.org
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/education



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 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Unsubscribe:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-15 Thread Sophie Osterberg
Srikanth, why don't you let them use their sandbox then to learn VE?




2013/10/15 Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in

 Honestly speaking I'd disable Visual Editor for new users. They have a
 tendency of making errors.



 On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se
 wrote:

  From Charles original questions I guess that he would be satisified with
  something like:
 
 
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLoginenablevisualeditor=1
 
 
  which should enable the Visual Editor for users signing up through that
  link. If it is possible or not to do that I have no idea.
 
  *Med vänliga hälsningar,
  Jan Ainali*
 
  Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige 
 http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida
  
  0729 - 67 29 48
 
 
 
 
 
 
  2013/10/15 Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net
 
   Hear hear.
  
   I know this is a battle that the Foundation's engineers can't possibly
  win,
   given the circumstances which VE was moved from opt-out to opt-in on
  enwiki
   (see
  
  
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)diff=prevoldid=574251354
   ,
   for those who aren't aware).  Turn it on, turn it off; either way
 someone
   gets upset.
  
   From a pure technical standpoint, is it possible to put a checkbox on
 the
   new user page or something so that new users can turn it on without
  having
   to delve deep into the untamed wilderness that is the user preferences
   page?
  
   Cheers,
   Craig
  
  
   On 15 October 2013 21:54, Richard Nevell 
  richard.nev...@wikimedia.org.uk
   wrote:
  
I firmly agree with that, taking a detour to preferences when
 training
   new
editors isn't my preferred method.
   
Richard
   
   
On 15 October 2013 12:47, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl
  wrote:
   
 Hello,

 I think that for beginners things must be as simple and clear as
 possible. Make them manipulate the preferences at the beginning of
  the
 session is already complicated and a waste of time. Don't forget
 that
 beginners already have to learn so many things quickly, so the more
 you can reduce, the better.
 Actually I'd prefer to have a model wiki that looks like Wikipedia
  but
 is best suited to use in trainings.

 Kind regards
 Ziko








   
  
 
 
 Dr. Ziko van Dijk
 voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland

 Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
 Postbus 167
 3500 AD Utrecht
 http://wikimedia.nl


   
  
 
 


 2013/10/15 Charles Andrès charles.andres.w...@gmail.com:
  Thanks, but in FR.Wikipedia.org you only have the opt-out option
 (disable visual editor) :-(
 
  Charles
 
 
  ___
  I use this email for mailing list only.
 
  Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
  Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free
 knowledge
  –
  www.wikimedia.ch
  Skype: charles.andres.wmch
  IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
 
  Le 15 oct. 2013 à 10:10, Enock Seth Nyamador 
 kwadzo...@gmail.com
  a
 écrit :
 
  Hello Charles,
 
  I don't think there is a way to for this in the registration
   process.
 
  To enable or disable Visual Editor. Login
 
  1. Go to --- Preferences -- Click Editing tab.
  2. At the bottom of Editing page, Check or uncheck the box
 beside
 Enable VisualEditor (only in the main and user namespaces)
 
 
  OR
 
  Follow this link

  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing
  Then repeat step 2 above.
 
  Hope it helps.
 
  Thanks.
 
  Regards,
  Enock S. Nyamador.
 
  ---
  Writer | Wikimedian
  Planning Wikimedia Ghana | About.me | Blog
  C: +233 (0)27 565 7589
 
 
  On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Charles Andres 
 charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:
  Dear all,
 
  In our new education program with youngs in scholar
 difficulties,
  we
 have the problem that only half of the new accounts have the visual
editor
 activated, it's quite annoying to have two teach two way of
 editing.
 
  Is there a trick to force the activation of Visual Editor for a
 specific user?
 
  Thanks
 
  Charles
 
  ___
  Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
  Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free
  knowledge –
  www.wikimedia.ch
  Skype: charles.andres.wmch
  IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
 
  ___
  

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-15 Thread Andrew Gray
Before Visual Editor was invented, we complained about people starting
editing right away and making mistakes. I'm not sure this is a
completely tool-linked issue ;-)

A.

On 15 October 2013 18:42, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote:
 That would be a great idea; but nobody seems to bother. They just start
 editing articles right away.



 On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Sophie Osterberg
 sosterb...@wikimedia.orgwrote:

 Srikanth, why don't you let them use their sandbox then to learn VE?




 2013/10/15 Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in

  Honestly speaking I'd disable Visual Editor for new users. They have a
  tendency of making errors.
 
 
 
  On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se
  wrote:
 
   From Charles original questions I guess that he would be satisified
 with
   something like:
  
  
  
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLoginenablevisualeditor=1
  
  
   which should enable the Visual Editor for users signing up through that
   link. If it is possible or not to do that I have no idea.
  
   *Med vänliga hälsningar,
   Jan Ainali*
  
   Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige 
  http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida
   
   0729 - 67 29 48
  
  
  
  
  
  
   2013/10/15 Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net
  
Hear hear.
   
I know this is a battle that the Foundation's engineers can't
 possibly
   win,
given the circumstances which VE was moved from opt-out to opt-in on
   enwiki
(see
   
   
  
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)diff=prevoldid=574251354
,
for those who aren't aware).  Turn it on, turn it off; either way
  someone
gets upset.
   
From a pure technical standpoint, is it possible to put a checkbox on
  the
new user page or something so that new users can turn it on without
   having
to delve deep into the untamed wilderness that is the user
 preferences
page?
   
Cheers,
Craig
   
   
On 15 October 2013 21:54, Richard Nevell 
   richard.nev...@wikimedia.org.uk
wrote:
   
 I firmly agree with that, taking a detour to preferences when
  training
new
 editors isn't my preferred method.

 Richard


 On 15 October 2013 12:47, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl
   wrote:

  Hello,
 
  I think that for beginners things must be as simple and clear as
  possible. Make them manipulate the preferences at the beginning
 of
   the
  session is already complicated and a waste of time. Don't forget
  that
  beginners already have to learn so many things quickly, so the
 more
  you can reduce, the better.
  Actually I'd prefer to have a model wiki that looks like
 Wikipedia
   but
  is best suited to use in trainings.
 
  Kind regards
  Ziko
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

   
  
 
 
  Dr. Ziko van Dijk
  voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
 
  Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
  Postbus 167
  3500 AD Utrecht
  http://wikimedia.nl
 
 

   
  
 
 
 
 
  2013/10/15 Charles Andrès charles.andres.w...@gmail.com:
   Thanks, but in FR.Wikipedia.org you only have the opt-out
 option
  (disable visual editor) :-(
  
   Charles
  
  
   ___
   I use this email for mailing list only.
  
   Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
   Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free
  knowledge
   –
   www.wikimedia.ch
   Skype: charles.andres.wmch
   IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
  
   Le 15 oct. 2013 à 10:10, Enock Seth Nyamador 
  kwadzo...@gmail.com
   a
  écrit :
  
   Hello Charles,
  
   I don't think there is a way to for this in the registration
process.
  
   To enable or disable Visual Editor. Login
  
   1. Go to --- Preferences -- Click Editing tab.
   2. At the bottom of Editing page, Check or uncheck the box
  beside
  Enable VisualEditor (only in the main and user namespaces)
  
  
   OR
  
   Follow this link
 
   
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing
   Then repeat step 2 above.
  
   Hope it helps.
  
   Thanks.
  
   Regards,
   Enock S. Nyamador.
  
   ---
   Writer | Wikimedian
   Planning Wikimedia Ghana | About.me | Blog
   C: +233 (0)27 565 7589
  
  
   On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Charles Andres 
  charles.andres.w...@gmail.com wrote:
   Dear all,
  
   In our new education program with youngs in scholar
  difficulties,
   we
  have the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-15 Thread Ziko van Dijk
This is very true; there is a gap between what (most) beginners like
to do and what would be wise to do. Some education colleagues told me
that their beginners never wanted to edit elsewhere than on the real
Wikipedia, not on an educational wiki. That beginners what to write
an article of their own as the first thing, and are not interested
in free knowledge, free licenses etc.

I compare that to someone who wants to get a drivers license. Riding
on the highway, that's great, but learning for the theoretical exam,
few are eager to. :-)

Kind regards
Ziko




Dr. Ziko van Dijk
voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland

Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
Postbus 167
3500 AD Utrecht
http://wikimedia.nl



2013/10/15 Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in:
 That would be a great idea; but nobody seems to bother. They just start
 editing articles right away.



 On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Sophie Osterberg
 sosterb...@wikimedia.orgwrote:

 Srikanth, why don't you let them use their sandbox then to learn VE?




 2013/10/15 Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in

  Honestly speaking I'd disable Visual Editor for new users. They have a
  tendency of making errors.
 
 
 
  On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se
  wrote:
 
   From Charles original questions I guess that he would be satisified
 with
   something like:
  
  
  
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLoginenablevisualeditor=1
  
  
   which should enable the Visual Editor for users signing up through that
   link. If it is possible or not to do that I have no idea.
  
   *Med vänliga hälsningar,
   Jan Ainali*
  
   Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige 
  http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida
   
   0729 - 67 29 48
  
  
  
  
  
  
   2013/10/15 Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net
  
Hear hear.
   
I know this is a battle that the Foundation's engineers can't
 possibly
   win,
given the circumstances which VE was moved from opt-out to opt-in on
   enwiki
(see
   
   
  
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)diff=prevoldid=574251354
,
for those who aren't aware).  Turn it on, turn it off; either way
  someone
gets upset.
   
From a pure technical standpoint, is it possible to put a checkbox on
  the
new user page or something so that new users can turn it on without
   having
to delve deep into the untamed wilderness that is the user
 preferences
page?
   
Cheers,
Craig
   
   
On 15 October 2013 21:54, Richard Nevell 
   richard.nev...@wikimedia.org.uk
wrote:
   
 I firmly agree with that, taking a detour to preferences when
  training
new
 editors isn't my preferred method.

 Richard


 On 15 October 2013 12:47, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl
   wrote:

  Hello,
 
  I think that for beginners things must be as simple and clear as
  possible. Make them manipulate the preferences at the beginning
 of
   the
  session is already complicated and a waste of time. Don't forget
  that
  beginners already have to learn so many things quickly, so the
 more
  you can reduce, the better.
  Actually I'd prefer to have a model wiki that looks like
 Wikipedia
   but
  is best suited to use in trainings.
 
  Kind regards
  Ziko
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

   
  
 
 
  Dr. Ziko van Dijk
  voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
 
  Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
  Postbus 167
  3500 AD Utrecht
  http://wikimedia.nl
 
 

   
  
 
 
 
 
  2013/10/15 Charles Andrès charles.andres.w...@gmail.com:
   Thanks, but in FR.Wikipedia.org you only have the opt-out
 option
  (disable visual editor) :-(
  
   Charles
  
  
   ___
   I use this email for mailing list only.
  
   Charles ANDRES, Chief Science Officer
   Wikimedia CH – Association for the advancement of free
  knowledge
   –
   www.wikimedia.ch
   Skype: charles.andres.wmch
   IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
  
   Le 15 oct. 2013 à 10:10, Enock Seth Nyamador 
  kwadzo...@gmail.com
   a
  écrit :
  
   Hello Charles,
  
   I don't think there is a way to for this in the registration
process.
  
   To enable or disable Visual Editor. Login
  
   1. Go to --- Preferences -- Click Editing tab.
   2. At the bottom of Editing page, Check or uncheck the box
  beside
  Enable VisualEditor (only in the main 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-15 Thread Chris Keating
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 6:42 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote:

 That would be a great idea; but nobody seems to bother. They just start
 editing articles right away.


Oh no! People editing articles! What a disaster!

/sarcasm

Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-15 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan
Chris, as Ziko put it. Would you like a novice driver with a Learner's
permit to drive on a Crowded street or a High speed expressway or in a
deserted ground?

Visual Editor for newbies has caused a lot of pages to 'break' as I have
noticed.



On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Chris Keating
chriskeatingw...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 6:42 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
 srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote:

  That would be a great idea; but nobody seems to bother. They just start
  editing articles right away.
 
 
 Oh no! People editing articles! What a disaster!

 /sarcasm

 Chris
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-- 
Srikanth Ramakrishnan
Treasurer,
Wikimedia Chapter [India]

Donate to the Wikimedia India Chapter todayhttp://wiki.wikimedia.in/Donations
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] How to force to enable Visual Editor

2013-10-15 Thread Risker
You're correct Srikanth; I'd like to think that VisualEditor will be the
entry editing interface of the future, but it's still not stable enough
and is missing too many features to be ideal for new editors.  It is,
however, getting better every time I use it, so it is inching closer
incrementally.  Today I successfully completed an edit using VE that I know
for a fact would have broken the page back in July, so progress is being
made.  When I worked with a group of new editors back in August, they
universally reverted to using Wikitext because it had easy-to-use
referencing and editing tools, only some of which are now incorporated into
VE, but I have faith that these will be folded in as time goes on.

It should be noted, however, that almost every single bug reported in
relation to VE occurred with experienced editors who had the skill to
report it, or to at least figure out how to undo the edit.  Those that
occurred with new editors were not reported unless an experienced editor
reviewed it and then tried to replicate it and figure out what went wrong.
It was this situation that led to showdowns on the English Wikipedia, more
so than just about anything else.  Well, that, and making it the production
editing interface without even testing major features.

I cannot speak to the experience on projects outside of English Wikipedia,
but I dearly hope that things are going more smoothly on other projects
that have not decided to remove themselves from participation in the
testing.

Risker




On 16 October 2013 01:08, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.inwrote:

 Chris, as Ziko put it. Would you like a novice driver with a Learner's
 permit to drive on a Crowded street or a High speed expressway or in a
 deserted ground?

 Visual Editor for newbies has caused a lot of pages to 'break' as I have
 noticed.



 On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Chris Keating
 chriskeatingw...@gmail.comwrote:

  On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 6:42 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
  srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote:
 
   That would be a great idea; but nobody seems to bother. They just start
   editing articles right away.
  
  
  Oh no! People editing articles! What a disaster!
 
  /sarcasm
 
  Chris
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 --
 Srikanth Ramakrishnan
 Treasurer,
 Wikimedia Chapter [India]

 Donate to the Wikimedia India Chapter today
 http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Donations
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