Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Strainu]

2017-03-20 11:04 GMT+02:00 Lodewijk :
> Hi Pine,
>
> it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to change,
> which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change, on
> our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members
> that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are
> having a hard time to get useful input from the community.

Strictly for technical communication, there is
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Collaboration_Guidance which
I have not seen mentioned here. When I last read it in detail, there
were some sound ideas expressed there. Since then, the quantity of
text has grown, but I see this is still a draft, so presumably one
could still influence the outcome by commenting in the talk pages of
the sections.

One of the ideas I have mentioned there, in the context of changes
which require community involvement was to encourage communities to
subscribe their village pump to the tech news. Tech news come on a
predictable schedule and include 95% of the important changes (with
the percentage set to increase after the Guidance is approved).

Strainu

>
> There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
> - using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of the
> community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list, the
> wikitech mailing list etc).
> - Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and
> everything. Gives you lots of comments.
> - Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives
> you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still reaches
> a specific part of the community.
>
> Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective.
> And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing'
> everyone.
>
> So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of
> ideas, experiences and provide input?
>
> Best
> Lodewijk
>
> PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th
> time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)
>
> 2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W :
>
>> Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
>>
>> I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and
>> surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like that in
>> the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey
>> about consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be
>> helpful in figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing,
>> locations, etc.
>>
>> Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social
>> media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps
>> because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that
>> holds true for both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some
>> initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone will have some ideas
>> that they can submit to IdeaLab.
>>
>> Pine
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>> 
>>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Pine W]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the comments. Would you and Edward be willing to meet with me
(and anyone else who might be interested, such as Lodewijk as well as
someone from WMF Communications) to discuss the current situation and
brainstorm ideas about how to improve it? We could set up a meeting
off-list. Anyone else who wants to participate would be welcome to email
me/us privately to be included in the meeting. After we meet we can come
back to this list with our notes from the meeting and suggestions for
future actions, possibly including a survey and/or consultation about mass
communications and information management.

In terms of scheduling, the earliest that I can realistically schedule a
meeting is in April, so we might be looking at May or June for the
timeframe in which we might come back to this list with notes about future
directions.

Thanks,

Pine


On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Chris "Jethro" Schilling <
cschill...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Hey Pine,
>
> Had to laugh a little bit about a consultation about consultations, but I
> understand the rationale for it.  Your point is well taken that information
> management is important to think about when there is much going on.
>
> I think the community notification calendar
> 
> that Gergő has mentioned above is a good place to start thinking about
> improvements of managing information.  Anecdotally, some of the issues I
> have seen and heard about are:
>
> * having to follow mailing lists that are too active (like this one),
> * having to follow too many disparate mailing lists,
> * getting pinged too many times from user talk page messages sent through
> Special:MassMessage.
> * Too many consultations focused on overlapping audiences
>
> A centralized calendar can help mitigate some of these issues.  In
> general, the calendar has been used for planning and scheduling purposes,
> but I like the idea of making it more usable to for folks wanting to know
> what consultations are happening.  Lodewijk recently suggested to me that
> some filters and other descriptors (e.g. country, projects targeted) will
> be needed to help users see what is relevant to them.  Building those
> components is one technical challenge, and would be making sure the
> calendar gets used by the relevant consultation audience is another.  We
> would need to think about how to inform people about the calendar without
> also falling back to doing more announcements on the usual channels a la
> "Hey, this new consultation is on the calendar."
>
> One issue I don't have a good answer for right now is how we can solve the
> problem of having too many announcement channels while also being confident
> that when a consultation is announced (by anyone) in some set of approved
> channels, can they expect to get sufficient and representative
> participation?  That might be something we can figure out in a survey about
> consultations generally as you've suggested.
>
> - Chris
>
> Chris "Jethro" Schilling
> I JethroBT (WMF) 
> Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation
> 
>
> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 1:40 AM, Pine W  wrote:
>
>> Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
>>
>> I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and
>> surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like that in
>> the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey
>> about consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be
>> helpful in figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing,
>> locations, etc.
>>
>> Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social
>> media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps
>> because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that
>> holds true for both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some
>> initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone will have some ideas
>> that they can submit to IdeaLab.
>>
>> Pine
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Chris "Jethro" Schilling]

Hey Pine,

Had to laugh a little bit about a consultation about consultations, but I
understand the rationale for it.  Your point is well taken that information
management is important to think about when there is much going on.

I think the community notification calendar
 that Gergő
has mentioned above is a good place to start thinking about improvements of
managing information.  Anecdotally, some of the issues I have seen and
heard about are:

* having to follow mailing lists that are too active (like this one),
* having to follow too many disparate mailing lists,
* getting pinged too many times from user talk page messages sent through
Special:MassMessage.
* Too many consultations focused on overlapping audiences

A centralized calendar can help mitigate some of these issues.  In general,
the calendar has been used for planning and scheduling purposes, but I like
the idea of making it more usable to for folks wanting to know what
consultations are happening.  Lodewijk recently suggested to me that some
filters and other descriptors (e.g. country, projects targeted) will be
needed to help users see what is relevant to them.  Building those
components is one technical challenge, and would be making sure the
calendar gets used by the relevant consultation audience is another.  We
would need to think about how to inform people about the calendar without
also falling back to doing more announcements on the usual channels a la
"Hey, this new consultation is on the calendar."

One issue I don't have a good answer for right now is how we can solve the
problem of having too many announcement channels while also being confident
that when a consultation is announced (by anyone) in some set of approved
channels, can they expect to get sufficient and representative
participation?  That might be something we can figure out in a survey about
consultations generally as you've suggested.

- Chris

Chris "Jethro" Schilling
I JethroBT (WMF) 
Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation


On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 1:40 AM, Pine W  wrote:

> Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
>
> I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and
> surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like that in
> the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey
> about consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be
> helpful in figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing,
> locations, etc.
>
> Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social
> media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps
> because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that
> holds true for both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some
> initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone will have some ideas
> that they can submit to IdeaLab.
>
> Pine
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Pine W]

gt; communication. Work out what might be useful to know and ask everyone.
> > Put
> > > a survey link on talk page for logged in users, and a banner  for IP
> > users.
> > > We get this anyway for fundraising. Before going full scale, test the
> > > survey on a small group, to find out what is wrong with it, fix the
> worst
> > > problems, and be sure to allow comments and feedback.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Lodewijk
> > > Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations
> > >
> > > Hi Pine,
> > >
> > > it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to
> > change,
> > > which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we
> change,
> > on
> > > our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community
> members
> > > that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these
> are
> > > having a hard time to get useful input from the community.
> > >
> > > There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
> > > - using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of
> > the
> > > community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list,
> > the
> > > wikitech mailing list etc).
> > > - Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners
> and
> > > everything. Gives you lots of comments.
> > > - Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc -
> gives
> > > you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still
> > reaches
> > > a specific part of the community.
> > >
> > > Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very
> effective.
> > > And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about
> 'informing'
> > > everyone.
> > >
> > > So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of
> > > ideas, experiences and provide input?
> > >
> > > Best
> > > Lodewijk
> > >
> > > PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th
> > > time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)
> > >
> > > 2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread.
> > (:
> > > >
> > > > I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations
> > > > and surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something
> like
> > > > that in the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a
> > > > consultation or survey about consultations or surveys, which I know
> > > > sounds ironic but may be helpful in figuring out how much is too much
> > > > or too little, timing, locations, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email,
> > > > social media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so --
> > > > or perhaps because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown.
> > > > I imagine that holds true for both staff and community members, and
> > > > I'd welcome some initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps
> someone
> > > > will have some ideas that they can submit to IdeaLab.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@l

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Lodewijk]

Thanks Fae.

Aside from what the initiator of the communication can do (in this case,
the WMF/affiliates), what could the community do to make their life easier?
It sounds to me like you're answering that with 'nothing'. Fair enough,
thanks for the response. Anyone has some ideas what might be improvements
on the community side of the communications?

Best,
Lodewijk

2017-03-20 11:35 GMT+01:00 Fæ <fae...@gmail.com>:

> I did, it's not my job to teach Communications theory to the WMF or all
> affiliates by writing 50 words in an email. There are plenty of books for
> that. Most define what Communication is, and how to measure its success,
> perfectly well.
>
> Fae
>
>
> On 20 Mar 2017 10:24, "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> Would you be so kind and answer the question Lodewijk asked. We are all
> aware that things are not perfect but what is it that can be done to
> improve it?
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 20 March 2017 at 10:58, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In practice what we (Wikimedians) see from WMF communications programmes
> is
> > widely spread announcements and sometimes an anonymous survey, again
> widely
> > spread. This is literally not 'communication', it is 'broadcasting'.
> >
> > For communication to be meaningful, your message must not only be sent to
> > the right stakeholders, but it is essential for the communication to be
> > two-way. This is why I find it especially frustrating to see generic
> posts
> > from the WMF sent by bots with no named person being the contact point.
> At
> > least with most emails sent to email lists, these are from a named person
> > and community members can respond to it, often with later replies from a
> > WMF employee.
> >
> > Fae
> >
> > On 20 Mar 2017 09:51, "Peter Southwood" <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Might it be useful to analyse the community before trying to get
> > communication out of them? Then efforts can be directed to be more
> > representative of the various parts. OK, I understand that to analyse
> them
> > it needs some communication. But that is a specific and directed
> > communication. Work out what might be useful to know and ask everyone.
> Put
> > a survey link on talk page for logged in users, and a banner  for IP
> users.
> > We get this anyway for fundraising. Before going full scale, test the
> > survey on a small group, to find out what is wrong with it, fix the worst
> > problems, and be sure to allow comments and feedback.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Lodewijk
> > Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations
> >
> > Hi Pine,
> >
> > it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to
> change,
> > which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change,
> on
> > our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members
> > that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are
> > having a hard time to get useful input from the community.
> >
> > There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
> > - using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of
> the
> > community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list,
> the
> > wikitech mailing list etc).
> > - Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and
> > everything. Gives you lots of comments.
> > - Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives
> > you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still
> reaches
> > a specific part of the community.
> >
> > Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective.
> > And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing'
> > everyone.
> >
> > So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of
> > ideas, experiences and provide input?
> >
> > Best
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th
> > time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)
> >
> > 2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread.
> (:
> > >
> > &g

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Fæ]

I did, it's not my job to teach Communications theory to the WMF or all
affiliates by writing 50 words in an email. There are plenty of books for
that. Most define what Communication is, and how to measure its success,
perfectly well.

Fae


On 20 Mar 2017 10:24, "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hoi,
Would you be so kind and answer the question Lodewijk asked. We are all
aware that things are not perfect but what is it that can be done to
improve it?
Thanks,
GerardM

On 20 March 2017 at 10:58, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In practice what we (Wikimedians) see from WMF communications programmes
is
> widely spread announcements and sometimes an anonymous survey, again
widely
> spread. This is literally not 'communication', it is 'broadcasting'.
>
> For communication to be meaningful, your message must not only be sent to
> the right stakeholders, but it is essential for the communication to be
> two-way. This is why I find it especially frustrating to see generic posts
> from the WMF sent by bots with no named person being the contact point. At
> least with most emails sent to email lists, these are from a named person
> and community members can respond to it, often with later replies from a
> WMF employee.
>
> Fae
>
> On 20 Mar 2017 09:51, "Peter Southwood" <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
> Might it be useful to analyse the community before trying to get
> communication out of them? Then efforts can be directed to be more
> representative of the various parts. OK, I understand that to analyse them
> it needs some communication. But that is a specific and directed
> communication. Work out what might be useful to know and ask everyone.
Put
> a survey link on talk page for logged in users, and a banner  for IP
users.
> We get this anyway for fundraising. Before going full scale, test the
> survey on a small group, to find out what is wrong with it, fix the worst
> problems, and be sure to allow comments and feedback.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Lodewijk
> Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations
>
> Hi Pine,
>
> it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to
change,
> which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change,
on
> our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members
> that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are
> having a hard time to get useful input from the community.
>
> There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
> - using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of the
> community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list, the
> wikitech mailing list etc).
> - Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and
> everything. Gives you lots of comments.
> - Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives
> you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still reaches
> a specific part of the community.
>
> Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective.
> And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing'
> everyone.
>
> So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of
> ideas, experiences and provide input?
>
> Best
> Lodewijk
>
> PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th
> time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)
>
> 2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
> >
> > I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations
> > and surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like
> > that in the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a
> > consultation or survey about consultations or surveys, which I know
> > sounds ironic but may be helpful in figuring out how much is too much
> > or too little, timing, locations, etc.
> >
> > Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email,
> > social media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so --
> > or perhaps because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown.
> > I imagine that holds true for both staff and community members, and
> > I'd welcome some initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone
> > will have some ideas that they can submit to IdeaLab.
> >
> > Pine
> > _

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Would you be so kind and answer the question Lodewijk asked. We are all
aware that things are not perfect but what is it that can be done to
improve it?
Thanks,
GerardM

On 20 March 2017 at 10:58, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In practice what we (Wikimedians) see from WMF communications programmes is
> widely spread announcements and sometimes an anonymous survey, again widely
> spread. This is literally not 'communication', it is 'broadcasting'.
>
> For communication to be meaningful, your message must not only be sent to
> the right stakeholders, but it is essential for the communication to be
> two-way. This is why I find it especially frustrating to see generic posts
> from the WMF sent by bots with no named person being the contact point. At
> least with most emails sent to email lists, these are from a named person
> and community members can respond to it, often with later replies from a
> WMF employee.
>
> Fae
>
> On 20 Mar 2017 09:51, "Peter Southwood" <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
> Might it be useful to analyse the community before trying to get
> communication out of them? Then efforts can be directed to be more
> representative of the various parts. OK, I understand that to analyse them
> it needs some communication. But that is a specific and directed
> communication. Work out what might be useful to know and ask everyone.  Put
> a survey link on talk page for logged in users, and a banner  for IP users.
> We get this anyway for fundraising. Before going full scale, test the
> survey on a small group, to find out what is wrong with it, fix the worst
> problems, and be sure to allow comments and feedback.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Lodewijk
> Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations
>
> Hi Pine,
>
> it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to change,
> which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change, on
> our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members
> that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are
> having a hard time to get useful input from the community.
>
> There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
> - using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of the
> community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list, the
> wikitech mailing list etc).
> - Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and
> everything. Gives you lots of comments.
> - Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives
> you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still reaches
> a specific part of the community.
>
> Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective.
> And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing'
> everyone.
>
> So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of
> ideas, experiences and provide input?
>
> Best
> Lodewijk
>
> PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th
> time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)
>
> 2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
> >
> > I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations
> > and surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like
> > that in the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a
> > consultation or survey about consultations or surveys, which I know
> > sounds ironic but may be helpful in figuring out how much is too much
> > or too little, timing, locations, etc.
> >
> > Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email,
> > social media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so --
> > or perhaps because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown.
> > I imagine that holds true for both staff and community members, and
> > I'd welcome some initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone
> > will have some ideas that they can submit to IdeaLab.
> >
> > Pine
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinf

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Fæ]

In practice what we (Wikimedians) see from WMF communications programmes is
widely spread announcements and sometimes an anonymous survey, again widely
spread. This is literally not 'communication', it is 'broadcasting'.

For communication to be meaningful, your message must not only be sent to
the right stakeholders, but it is essential for the communication to be
two-way. This is why I find it especially frustrating to see generic posts
from the WMF sent by bots with no named person being the contact point. At
least with most emails sent to email lists, these are from a named person
and community members can respond to it, often with later replies from a
WMF employee.

Fae

On 20 Mar 2017 09:51, "Peter Southwood" <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
wrote:

Might it be useful to analyse the community before trying to get
communication out of them? Then efforts can be directed to be more
representative of the various parts. OK, I understand that to analyse them
it needs some communication. But that is a specific and directed
communication. Work out what might be useful to know and ask everyone.  Put
a survey link on talk page for logged in users, and a banner  for IP users.
We get this anyway for fundraising. Before going full scale, test the
survey on a small group, to find out what is wrong with it, fix the worst
problems, and be sure to allow comments and feedback.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Lodewijk
Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

Hi Pine,

it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to change,
which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change, on
our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members
that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are
having a hard time to get useful input from the community.

There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
- using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of the
community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list, the
wikitech mailing list etc).
- Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and
everything. Gives you lots of comments.
- Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives
you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still reaches
a specific part of the community.

Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective.
And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing'
everyone.

So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of
ideas, experiences and provide input?

Best
Lodewijk

PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th
time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)

2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com>:

> Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
>
> I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations
> and surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like
> that in the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a
> consultation or survey about consultations or surveys, which I know
> sounds ironic but may be helpful in figuring out how much is too much
> or too little, timing, locations, etc.
>
> Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email,
> social media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so --
> or perhaps because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown.
> I imagine that holds true for both staff and community members, and
> I'd welcome some initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone
> will have some ideas that they can submit to IdeaLab.
>
> Pine
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Peter Southwood]

Might it be useful to analyse the community before trying to get communication 
out of them? Then efforts can be directed to be more representative of the 
various parts. OK, I understand that to analyse them it needs some 
communication. But that is a specific and directed communication. Work out what 
might be useful to know and ask everyone.  Put a survey link on talk page for 
logged in users, and a banner  for IP users. We get this anyway for 
fundraising. Before going full scale, test the survey on a small group, to find 
out what is wrong with it, fix the worst problems, and be sure to allow 
comments and feedback.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Lodewijk
Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

Hi Pine,

it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to change, 
which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change, on our 
end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members that want 
to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are having a hard 
time to get useful input from the community.

There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
- using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of the 
community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list, the 
wikitech mailing list etc).
- Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and 
everything. Gives you lots of comments.
- Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives you a 
broad reach over languages, but within those languages still reaches a specific 
part of the community.

Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective.
And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing'
everyone.

So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of ideas, 
experiences and provide input?

Best
Lodewijk

PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th time, 
it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)

2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com>:

> Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
>
> I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations 
> and surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like 
> that in the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a 
> consultation or survey about consultations or surveys, which I know 
> sounds ironic but may be helpful in figuring out how much is too much 
> or too little, timing, locations, etc.
>
> Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, 
> social media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- 
> or perhaps because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. 
> I imagine that holds true for both staff and community members, and 
> I'd welcome some initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone 
> will have some ideas that they can submit to IdeaLab.
>
> Pine
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ 
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ 
> wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Peter Southwood]

All surveys should have a feedback option at the end, That lets people comment 
on what was right or more often what was wrong with the survey. There is almost 
always something wrong with the questions and options for answers, which is 
annoying and frustrating as you know that the results will be distorted and 
there is no way of letting the surveyors know what the problems are.  A lot of 
feedback will be a load of rubbish too, but there will usually be something to 
learn from it. This also combines survey and consultation to some extent. 
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Pine W
Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 8:40 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Chris Schilling
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:

I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and 
surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like that in the 
next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey about 
consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be helpful in 
figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing, locations, etc.

Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social media 
channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps because -- 
there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that holds true for 
both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some initiatives to improve 
the situation. Perhaps someone will have some ideas that they can submit to 
IdeaLab.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Lodewijk]

Hi Pine,

it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to change,
which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change, on
our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members
that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are
having a hard time to get useful input from the community.

There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
- using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of the
community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list, the
wikitech mailing list etc).
- Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and
everything. Gives you lots of comments.
- Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives
you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still reaches
a specific part of the community.

Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective.
And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing'
everyone.

So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of
ideas, experiences and provide input?

Best
Lodewijk

PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th
time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)

2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W :

> Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
>
> I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and
> surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like that in
> the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey
> about consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be
> helpful in figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing,
> locations, etc.
>
> Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social
> media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps
> because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that
> holds true for both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some
> initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone will have some ideas
> that they can submit to IdeaLab.
>
> Pine
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Pine W]

Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:

I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and
surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like that in
the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey
about consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be
helpful in figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing,
locations, etc.

Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social
media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps
because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that
holds true for both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some
initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone will have some ideas
that they can submit to IdeaLab.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Pine W]

Gergo, perhaps my point got lost since it was a tangent from the TCoC
discussion. I was intending to address the topic of communication and
information management in general. This topic came up during the course of
the TCoC thread, and I was responding to that. Lodewijk was right to branch
the discussion.

Pine


On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Gergő Tisza  wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 3:22 PM, Pine W  wrote:
>
> > As I said, some of this is WMF-specific. For example, WMF could
> coordinate
> > its requests for surveys and consultations so that they happen on a
> > predictable monthly basis instead of sending what feels like 10+
> > notifications every month for separate consultations and surveys
>
>
> You might be looking for https://meta.wikimedia.
> org/wiki/Community_Engagement/Calendar
> In any case, it seems a bit tendentious to raise this in the context of the
> Code of the Coduct, which (as it has been told ad nauseam) was a volunteer
> initiative, organized mostly with resources available to volunteers.
> Feel free though to discuss your preferences on notification frequency with
> the people who complained all along that insufficient effort is being made
> to get the community to participate.
> There is a Hungarian saying about a rabbit and a hat, of which these
> conversations somewhat remind me:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/4bd293/
> til_that_hungary_held_a_contest_to_name_a_danube/d18f4k9/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[MZMcBride]

Gergő Tisza wrote:
>In any case, it seems a bit tendentious to raise this in the context of
>the Code of the Coduct, which (as it has been told ad nauseam) was a
>volunteer initiative, organized mostly with resources available to
>volunteers.

The subject-space and talk pages have literally hundreds of edits by
user names marked with "WMF". Describing this effort as a volunteer
initiative is at least misleading, given this context.

http://vs.aka-online.de/cgi-bin/wppagehiststat.pl?lang=www.mediawiki=C
ode+of+Conduct

http://vs.aka-online.de/cgi-bin/wppagehiststat.pl?lang=www.mediawiki=T
alk:Code+of+Conduct

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Gergő Tisza]

On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 3:22 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> As I said, some of this is WMF-specific. For example, WMF could coordinate
> its requests for surveys and consultations so that they happen on a
> predictable monthly basis instead of sending what feels like 10+
> notifications every month for separate consultations and surveys


You might be looking for https://meta.wikimedia.
org/wiki/Community_Engagement/Calendar
In any case, it seems a bit tendentious to raise this in the context of the
Code of the Coduct, which (as it has been told ad nauseam) was a volunteer
initiative, organized mostly with resources available to volunteers.
Feel free though to discuss your preferences on notification frequency with
the people who complained all along that insufficient effort is being made
to get the community to participate.
There is a Hungarian saying about a rabbit and a hat, of which these
conversations somewhat remind me:
https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/4bd293/til_that_hungary_held_a_contest_to_name_a_danube/d18f4k9/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations

[Pine W]

As I said, some of this is WMF-specific. For example, WMF could coordinate
its requests for surveys and consultations so that they happen on a
predictable monthly basis instead of sending what feels like 10+
notifications every month for separate consultations and surveys, with some
of those being repeat requests (personally I think a ceiling of 2 requests
per consultation/survey would be appropriate). I'm in favor of
consultations, but there can be too much of a good thing. Information
overload is as much of a problem as lack of communication.

I don't have a solution to this package of problems, but I think it would
be worth researching and trying to refine information flows for greater
efficiency and effectiveness, and to make more effective use of everyone's
time. I imagine that large organizations (e.g. IBM) have people whose jobs
are focused on improving information workflows within their organization,
and I think that WMF and the community could benefit from that kind of
approach to communications and information management.

Pine


On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Lodewijk 
wrote:

> (branching this into a new thread as it gets quite off topic)
>
> Pine: Why do you think the solution lies with the Wikimedia Foundation?
>
> Lodewijk
>
> 2017-03-18 22:52 GMT+01:00 Pine W :
>
> > My point is more or less the same one that you're making. Communications
> > (too much and too little) and information overload are both challenges. I
> > don't think there's going to be a silver bullet solution, but I hope that
> > WMF will invest effort into addressing this set of problems during the
> next
> > Annual Plan. Some of this is WMF-specific, but some of it also relates to
> > how we've organized ourselves in the community through organic growth and
> > over time we've developed so many channels that one wonders if we would
> > benefit from some consolidation and pruning.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 2:15 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> > > You mean, "how to deal with people who complain they weren't consulted
> > > then turn around and complain they were excessively consulted"? At
> > > this point, the appropriate thing would be to put forward a plausible
> > > solution rather than complain they did the thing you claimed they
> > > hadn't sufficiently done.
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 18 March 2017 at 20:39, Pine W  wrote:
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > That last paragraph assumes that people (1) know where to look and
> (2)
> > > have
> > > > hours to spend watching countless channels for announcements. On the
> > > other
> > > > hand, there's also a problem of burying people in so many
> > announcements,
> > > > surveys, and consultations that people start to tune it all out. This
> > is
> > > > part of a larger set of communications and "information overload"
> > > problems
> > > > that I'm hoping that WMF will address, particularly during its next
> > > Annual
> > > > Plan.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > ___
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