Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-03-07 Thread rupert THURNER
On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 7:09 AM, Gerard Meijssen
 wrote:
> On 8 March 2017 at 06:45, MZMcBride  wrote:
>> Risker wrote:
>> >I am very curious. Why is it that there seems to be so much resistance to
>> >this draft code of conduct?
>>
>> You may find these links helpful:
>>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-
>> February/086595.html
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct#Summary_of_criticisms
> With all respect, the summary is not a summary. Wading through long, long
> more of the same is not helpful. We have had more of the same here on this
> list.
risker asked if it is process or contents. as far as i was able to
follow: both. isarra hits it so much on the spot, with "When designing
anything - processes, software, architecture - you need to know your
use cases in order to properly address them."  from process
perspective it is driven by WMF employees. (nearly) no input from
volunteers, and if there was input, it was "WMF, please let the
volunteers run making policies for volunteers". from a content
perspective, the policy is bloated, does not remove something else. no
case was shown where the pre-existing or common sense is not good
enough. the WMF persons driving it seemed to be fine with ignoring
these inputs - or mainly the "no-input". at the end of the day if you
have 1000 pages of policies, or 1050, what is the big difference? what
is the difference of having 40 committees or 41? one. or, maybe 42 for
the douglas adams fans.

sometimes i feel a mentality of "less is more" would be a benefit.
1050 pages of policies sounds like a harassment by itself. but would i
invest time to address it? no way - i is not fun and makes tired. if
we want less policies or more efficient ones, WMF could pay less
persons, they would then have no time any more to produce texts like
this. or WFM could pay a person to delete pages, instead of paying a
person to add pages. kind of paying a fitness trainer to loose weight
i guess.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-03-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
With all respect, the summary is not a summary. Wading through long, long
more of the same is not helpful. We have had more of the same here on this
list.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 8 March 2017 at 06:45, MZMcBride  wrote:

> Risker wrote:
> >I am very curious. Why is it that there seems to be so much resistance to
> >this draft code of conduct?
>
> You may find these links helpful:
>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-
> February/086595.html
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct#Summary_of_criticisms
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-03-07 Thread MZMcBride
Risker wrote:
>I am very curious. Why is it that there seems to be so much resistance to
>this draft code of conduct?

You may find these links helpful:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-February/086595.html
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct#Summary_of_criticisms

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-03-07 Thread Pine W
Commenting generally (i.e. not specifically to Risker), this topic has been
giving me enough of a headache that I would like to see some kind of path
forward, preferably one with the most harmony. I suggest that what should
happen based on my admittedly not-detailed look at the draft's history and
present state is that the whole document should go forward with an RfC.
After that happens, I hope we'll all have enough clarity about the document
to figure out what should happen next.

Personally, I'm kind of tired of this topic and would like to move on with
something that is less contentious.

I do want some kind of behavior policy for Phabricator in particular. I'm
not sure that it's this one as it's currently written, but I'm more
concerned at this point about procedure than substance. Whatever the
outcome of an RfC on the whole document is, I'd suggest accepting it and
moving forward from there.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-03-07 Thread Risker
I am very curious. Why is it that there seems to be so much resistance to
this draft code of conduct?  This document closely parallels both the WMF
friendly space policy and similar policies in the broader tech/developer
community. It is also not that far from policies that exist on many
Wikimedia projects, with the possible exception of having a better
delineated path of reporting of problem behaviour, and a stronger
expectation of having problem behaviour addressed. Do people have a problem
with the document itself, or just the process of its development?

If, for example, the communities of Polish Wikipedia and Polish Wikisource
got together with Wikimedia Poland and they jointly developed a similar
policy to apply in those projects and in events relating to those projects
and organizations, would people from other projects be upset because (in
the rare event that they might edit Polish Wikipedia or attend a Wikimedia
Poland event) those expectations would be applied to them?  Would we, as a
broader community, think that it would be okay to (attempt to) block those
closely related projects/organizations from developing such a policy?

This is a genuine question; I'm having a hard time sorting out some of the
comments that have been made in this thread.

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-03-07 Thread Matthew Flaschen

On 02/26/2017 01:23 PM, Adrian Raddatz wrote:

The benefit to individual admins (and whatever the equivalent
is on phab) making decisions about blocks is that you know who did it and
how to appeal it.


There is no equivalent on Phabricator.  That just had enforcement by 
Developer Relations, first based on best judgment and the Phabricator 
etiquette and later their own interpretation of the community-written 
CoC draft.


Going forward, Phabricator enforcement will be less WMF-centric, since 
it will be done by the Committee (once it's up and running), with only 
appeals handled by Technical Collaboration.


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-03-07 Thread Matthew Flaschen

On 02/25/2017 02:15 PM, MZMcBride wrote:

The "no conduct policy for technical spaces" argument was debunked here:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-November/085573.html


This is false.  None of the three policies you cited are a code of 
conduct for technical spaces that applies online to everyone, including 
volunteers:


* https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_policy - Only 
binding on staff and Board.


* https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use - Not a code of 
conduct, does not define harassment.  A legal document that encourages 
creating project policies like the code of conduct ("The Wikimedia 
community and its members may also take action when so allowed by the 
community or Foundation policies applicable to the specific Project 
edition, including but not limited to warning, investigating, blocking, 
or banning users who violate those policies.")


* https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy - Does not 
apply online, or to Wikimedia tech events that are not funded by the 
foundation.



Pine W also wrote:

Well, WMF will have to deal with this policy too. (:


Sort of. The proposed text currently includes "If a WMF employee or
contractor is accused of wrongdoing, or a WMF employee or contractor is
reported as being subjected to wrongdoing, the Committee will forward the
report to the employee's or contractor’s manager, and to WMF HR in
writing." It remains very unclear whether this code of conduct policy can
apply to Wikimedia Foundation employees, given comments from the Wikimedia
Foundation's Legal and Human Resources departments.


No "sort of".  It unambiguously applies to all members of the community 
regardless of status, and Legal posted consistent with that 
(https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct#Freedom_of_the_Code_of_Conduct_Committee)



It's darkly amusing to see you citing the English Wikipedia. When I
pointed out to you on mediawiki.org that "it would never be appropriate
for the person who began a discussion to then also close that discussion,"
you replied that "English Wikipedia policies do not apply here."


I noted that in response to a claim about all WMF wikis: "That is always 
the case.", so in this case citing any wiki was a sufficient 
counter-example to disprove that claim.


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-28 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
So is there a Community RFC or not?  If so, where?

"Rogol"

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 8:59 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> As I'm looking at that talk page, I see a situation which looks like no one
> will "win", which is the opposite of how I would like discussions about
> policy to go in the ideal world.
>
> Trying to salvage that situation is more than I can take on at this time.
> My hunch is that if the RfC is approved, even if I would change parts of
> it, it'll be something that I can mostly accept and to which I may propose
> amendments to the future. A more difficult web of problems will be the
> relationships that are fraying and the accusations that have been going
> back and forth. I don't have time to investigate all that now, and even if
> I did, I'm not sure that it would do much good.
>
> I think it would be helpful, and would be appropriate, for WMF employees to
> *support* conversations like the development of CoCs in places like
> Phabricator. But trying to *lead* those conversations is different matter.
>
> Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-27 Thread Pine W
As I'm looking at that talk page, I see a situation which looks like no one
will "win", which is the opposite of how I would like discussions about
policy to go in the ideal world.

Trying to salvage that situation is more than I can take on at this time.
My hunch is that if the RfC is approved, even if I would change parts of
it, it'll be something that I can mostly accept and to which I may propose
amendments to the future. A more difficult web of problems will be the
relationships that are fraying and the accusations that have been going
back and forth. I don't have time to investigate all that now, and even if
I did, I'm not sure that it would do much good.

I think it would be helpful, and would be appropriate, for WMF employees to
*support* conversations like the development of CoCs in places like
Phabricator. But trying to *lead* those conversations is different matter.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-27 Thread Gergő Tisza
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 3:59 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:

> Apart from that, i see a big COI - the staffer in question is voting at
> the voting sections, striking out votes, defending the code of conduct and
> the he is marking a section as "consensus". Imho the COI is obvious, such a
> behavior wouldn't be possible at dewp or commons.
>

Commons has 30 thousand active editors; dewp has 20 thousand; mediawiki.org
has one thousand. Many smaller wikis don't have the kind of COI rules
around voting that the big ones have, because it's harder to find
uninvolved bystanders who care enough to do the administration. (On huwiki
for example it's customary for the person who proposed the vote to be the
closer.)

In this case every section closed as consensus had clear majority (60%+ by
my count) and all struck votes were made weeks after the given section was
closed, so I don't see anything problematic about that.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-27 Thread Steinsplitter Wiki
To be honest, i am a bit concerned about Matt Flaschen's conduct here: 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft#Summary_of_criticisms 
This is not the behavior which i expect from a payed staffer.


Apart from that, i see a big COI - the staffer in question is voting at the 
voting sections, striking out votes, defending the code of conduct and the he 
is marking a section as "consensus". Imho the COI is obvious, such a behavior 
wouldn't be possible at dewp or commons.


Best,


--Steinsplitter


Von: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org> im Auftrag von Rogol 
Domedonfors <domedonf...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Montag, 27. Februar 2017 08:32
An: Wikimedia Mailing List
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

Yes.  See
https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft=2409367
at section "Final approval of CoC", where Matt's statement at
https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft=784
is discussed.

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >now reneged on previous agreements to hold a final vote
>
> Has that actually happened? I'm hoping that no statement like "the total
> document isn't subject to an RfC" was actually made. That would add
> needless disagreement to a process that is challenging enough even in the
> best of circumstances, and in any case would likely be overridden by the
> community.
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Joseph Seddon
I would like to also point out a central notice banner was displayed on
Mediawiki.org to logged in users.

Seddon

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 2:28 AM, Gergő Tisza  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Adrian Raddatz 
> wrote:
>
> > A lack of other community members participation is perhaps half on a lack
> > of advertising, and half on a lack of interest.
> >
>
> The drafting process was advertised to the point of obnoxiousness. I count
> 30 announcements in my inbox from Matt, and that's with Gmail merging
> identical emails from multiple mailing lists. There has been a discussion
> section in all IRL tech events. There has been an extended talk page
> discussion with 126 distinct accounts (36 of which have "WMF" in their
> name).
>
> For comparison, AFAIK the largest discussion in the technical community so
> far was the one to switch from Bugzilla to Phabricator (something that
> affects the average contributor far, far more than the existence of a group
> of people who address harassment concerns), which had seen the involvement
> of 91 accounts:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Phabricator
>
> So IMO neither interest nor participation has been lacking.
> I'll also note that I find it unhelpful that this topic is being
> forum-shopped here instead of one of the discussion channels of the
> Wikimedia tech community (wikitech-l being the obvious one).
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-- 
Seddon

*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)*
*Wikimedia Foundation*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Gergő Tisza
On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Adrian Raddatz  wrote:

> A lack of other community members participation is perhaps half on a lack
> of advertising, and half on a lack of interest.
>

The drafting process was advertised to the point of obnoxiousness. I count
30 announcements in my inbox from Matt, and that's with Gmail merging
identical emails from multiple mailing lists. There has been a discussion
section in all IRL tech events. There has been an extended talk page
discussion with 126 distinct accounts (36 of which have "WMF" in their
name).

For comparison, AFAIK the largest discussion in the technical community so
far was the one to switch from Bugzilla to Phabricator (something that
affects the average contributor far, far more than the existence of a group
of people who address harassment concerns), which had seen the involvement
of 91 accounts:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Phabricator

So IMO neither interest nor participation has been lacking.
I'll also note that I find it unhelpful that this topic is being
forum-shopped here instead of one of the discussion channels of the
Wikimedia tech community (wikitech-l being the obvious one).
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Todd Allen
The idea was floated that since discussion has taken place on individual
sections, discussion was not needed for the final document. I did not see
any indication that this was the final decision on the matter. Though
clarification would be quite appreciated.

Todd

On Feb 26, 2017 5:12 PM, "Pine W"  wrote:

> >now reneged on previous agreements to hold a final vote
>
> Has that actually happened? I'm hoping that no statement like "the total
> document isn't subject to an RfC" was actually made. That would add
> needless disagreement to a process that is challenging enough even in the
> best of circumstances, and in any case would likely be overridden by the
> community.
>
> Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Pine W
>now reneged on previous agreements to hold a final vote

Has that actually happened? I'm hoping that no statement like "the total
document isn't subject to an RfC" was actually made. That would add
needless disagreement to a process that is challenging enough even in the
best of circumstances, and in any case would likely be overridden by the
community.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Leila Zia
On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Tim Landscheidt 
wrote:

> Leila Zia  wrote:
>
> > […]
>
> > On a separate note to those of you who contribute to technical spaces and
> > are not happy about how some aspects have gone:
>
> > Matthew and a few other people have been trying /really hard/ to make
> > Wikimedia's technical spaces better. You know that embarking on such a
> path
> > is very difficult: it requires spending many many hours of your time
> (read
> > life) on it, elaborating, deliberating, documenting, discussing things
> with
> > people from different paths of life, etc. They have been doing it for
> > months now. It's my understanding that they are doing this not to
> exercise
> > power over others but to make our technical spaces better, to make them
> > more enjoyable to contribute in.
>
> > For all of us who contribute in technical spaces, we should remember: We
> > may not agree with every step they take, but we all owe it to them to
> help
> > them on this path. What they are doing is a good thing and that's
> something
> > that sometimes gets lost in these lengthy conversations.
>
> This is a circular and illogical argument.  Just because
> someone has good intentions or invested time and effort does
> not mean that the path they chose is the right one to take.
> And if someone is steering towards a cliff, encouraging peo-
> ple to keep pushing the cart to honour the navigator's dedi-
> cation is self-destructive.
>

I agree with everything you say above, and I'd like to clarify something in
response to your first sentence, as reading that and re-reading the latter
part of my initial post, I realize I may have signaled something that I
didn't mean to:

I didn't mean to say that since people have spent a lot of time on task X,
we need to help them finish it. I meant to say the following:

* I wanted to ask everyone involved in these discussions to have more
empathy towards one another. Things sometimes don't go well when we start
sending back-and-forth emails on this list, and on this thread
specifically, we've already started some loaded statements. My request was
to please remember that there is a human on the other side reading your
message, most likely operating based on good faith: this person is,
hopefully, making decisions based on logic, but he/she does have emotions,
let's keep that in mind.

​Leila​


>
> Tim
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
Perhaps this need for use cases was addressed in the "report" which the
staff commissioned from consultants over a year ago but which was never
shared with the community at large – assuming that it was ever produced.

"Rogol"

On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Isarra Yos  wrote:

> On 26/02/17 18:21, MZMcBride wrote:
>
>> Then you and others should have no problem providing specific examples.
>> I'd like to see links to Gerrit changesets and Phabricator tasks where
>> this new policy and its committee would help. If you want to make claims
>> of serious unacknowledged problems, substantiate them with evidence. This
>> is exactly the same burden of proof you would expect from anyone else.
>>
>> MZMcBride
>>
>
> I've asked for this before, but got nothing but hypotheticals. It's hard
> to weigh in on a document that does not cite specific examples, with
> context, of what it seeks to address. When designing anything - processes,
> software, architecture - you need to know your use cases in order to
> properly address them. We spent months researching what the users were
> actually doing, and the problems they were running into, before we started
> making anything for WikiProject X. For every decision we made, we can point
> to examples on-wiki of the trends that led us to this; or the software
> limitations; or the fact that it actually was kind of arbitrary, and that
> if any actual reasons to change it are provided, this can totally be done.
>
> And this Code of Conduct is much bigger, in both scope and likely impact,
> than WikiProject X.
>
> -I
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Isarra Yos

On 26/02/17 18:21, MZMcBride wrote:

Then you and others should have no problem providing specific examples.
I'd like to see links to Gerrit changesets and Phabricator tasks where
this new policy and its committee would help. If you want to make claims
of serious unacknowledged problems, substantiate them with evidence. This
is exactly the same burden of proof you would expect from anyone else.

MZMcBride


I've asked for this before, but got nothing but hypotheticals. It's hard 
to weigh in on a document that does not cite specific examples, with 
context, of what it seeks to address. When designing anything - 
processes, software, architecture - you need to know your use cases in 
order to properly address them. We spent months researching what the 
users were actually doing, and the problems they were running into, 
before we started making anything for WikiProject X. For every decision 
we made, we can point to examples on-wiki of the trends that led us to 
this; or the software limitations; or the fact that it actually was kind 
of arbitrary, and that if any actual reasons to change it are provided, 
this can totally be done.


And this Code of Conduct is much bigger, in both scope and likely 
impact, than WikiProject X.


-I

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Tim Landscheidt
David Gerard  wrote:

>> Eh, they do and that is one of the reasons to oppose the
>> Code of Conduct.  Its draft implicitly alleges that the
>> technical spaces currently are a cesspit that is in urgent
>> need of someone with a rake while protecting actual offend-
>> ers by granting immunity to "neuroatypical" behaviour.

> This is a pretty reasonable presumption regarding technical spaces: if
> you *don't* have a code of conduct, it's a reasonable conclusion from
> outside that there will be serious unacknowledged problems.

> e.g. "You literally cannot pay me to speak without a Code of Conduct"
> http://rachelnabors.com/2015/09/01/code-of-conduct/

> This is literally all well-worn discourse territory, but I'm sure if
> you both persist you can wear everyone down.

Repeating "reasonable" does not replace arguments.  There is
a lot of conjecture around code of conducts, just like there
are a lot of prejudices elsewhere.  Even if a belief is held
by a significant number of people that does not make it a
fact.

Tim


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread
On 26 February 2017 at 18:12, Pax Ahimsa Gethen
 wrote:
> Thank you for sharing that Rachel Nabors post, David; bookmarked. I think
> some on this list are missing the point that codes of conduct are necessary
> to help provide a welcoming and safer environment for marginalized people,
> including the neuroatypical that Tim refers to (somewhat disparagingly). It
> isn't about virtual signaling or earning social justice cred; it's about
> addressing some of the legitimate concerns and fears that prevent people
> including women (of all races), people of color (of all genders), LGBT+
> people, and others from participating fully in spaces and events.
>
> - Pax aka Funcrunch

Sorry to disagree, but this particular committee is being created on
hypothetical grounds rather than on practical experience and past case
histories for the technical environments being targeted.

Based on my experience of homophobic harassment, I would not go near
this committee to report an issue as it cannot provide any assurance
of confidentiality, nor can they provide assurance that information
provided will not be used for other purposes. Emails sent to the
envisioned committee can be kept as records indefinitely by WMF legal,
who have already refused to explain what records they already hold on
volunteers, and will not cooperate with the police or an attorney of a
victim of harassment without a subpoena (which presumes you already
know what evidence they are holding).

It's a nice thought that the motivation for a code of conduct is to
provide safer spaces for LGBT+ people and others, but the
implementation, in this case, is an overly bureaucratic ghastly mess,
before it has even started.

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Adrian Raddatz
In terms of substantive concerns, the ArbCom model is what most non-staff
commenters seem to be caught up on. I'm personally concerned with any
creation of a dispute resolution "class" of editor, since I feel that the
community does a terrible job of mob resolution at places like ANI on
enwiki, or RfC on meta. The less you can exclusively resolve disputes
on-wiki, the better.

And this proposal for an ArbCom is perhaps the most bureaucratic and
expansive one I've ever seen. A regular and supplementary committee? And
one which hears all cases, rather than just appeals? This sounds like a
perfect recipe for diffusing responsibility for blocks/bans and that's not
a good thing. The benefit to individual admins (and whatever the equivalent
is on phab) making decisions about blocks is that you know who did it and
how to appeal it. That's a lot harder when it was done because of a 3-2
vote on some strange committee that will be hard for newcomers or
occasional users to understand the composition of.

Replace the enforcement section with authority for admins (and equivalent)
to add sanctions as they see fit, but with some sort of formal appeal
option like asking another admin, or a small and randomly selected group of
them, or a small and randomly selected group of others.

Adrian Raddatz

On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikime...@funcrunch.org> wrote:

> Thank you for sharing that Rachel Nabors post, David; bookmarked. I think
> some on this list are missing the point that codes of conduct are necessary
> to help provide a welcoming and safer environment for marginalized people,
> including the neuroatypical that Tim refers to (somewhat disparagingly). It
> isn't about virtual signaling or earning social justice cred; it's about
> addressing some of the legitimate concerns and fears that prevent people
> including women (of all races), people of color (of all genders), LGBT+
> people, and others from participating fully in spaces and events.
>
> - Pax aka Funcrunch
>
>
> On 2/26/17 9:53 AM, David Gerard wrote:
>
>> On 26 February 2017 at 17:49, Tim Landscheidt 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Eh, they do and that is one of the reasons to oppose the
>>> Code of Conduct.  Its draft implicitly alleges that the
>>> technical spaces currently are a cesspit that is in urgent
>>> need of someone with a rake while protecting actual offend-
>>> ers by granting immunity to "neuroatypical" behaviour.
>>>
>>
>>
>> This is a pretty reasonable presumption regarding technical spaces: if
>> you *don't* have a code of conduct, it's a reasonable conclusion from
>> outside that there will be serious unacknowledged problems.
>>
>> e.g. "You literally cannot pay me to speak without a Code of Conduct"
>> http://rachelnabors.com/2015/09/01/code-of-conduct/
>>
>> This is literally all well-worn discourse territory, but I'm sure if
>> you both persist you can wear everyone down.
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>> --
> Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread MZMcBride
David Gerard wrote:
>This is a pretty reasonable presumption regarding technical spaces: if
>you *don't* have a code of conduct, it's a reasonable conclusion from
>outside that there will be serious unacknowledged problems.

Then you and others should have no problem providing specific examples.
I'd like to see links to Gerrit changesets and Phabricator tasks where
this new policy and its committee would help. If you want to make claims
of serious unacknowledged problems, substantiate them with evidence. This
is exactly the same burden of proof you would expect from anyone else.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Pax Ahimsa Gethen
Thank you for sharing that Rachel Nabors post, David; bookmarked. I 
think some on this list are missing the point that codes of conduct are 
necessary to help provide a welcoming and safer environment for 
marginalized people, including the neuroatypical that Tim refers to 
(somewhat disparagingly). It isn't about virtual signaling or earning 
social justice cred; it's about addressing some of the legitimate 
concerns and fears that prevent people including women (of all races), 
people of color (of all genders), LGBT+ people, and others from 
participating fully in spaces and events.


- Pax aka Funcrunch


On 2/26/17 9:53 AM, David Gerard wrote:

On 26 February 2017 at 17:49, Tim Landscheidt  wrote:


Eh, they do and that is one of the reasons to oppose the
Code of Conduct.  Its draft implicitly alleges that the
technical spaces currently are a cesspit that is in urgent
need of someone with a rake while protecting actual offend-
ers by granting immunity to "neuroatypical" behaviour.



This is a pretty reasonable presumption regarding technical spaces: if
you *don't* have a code of conduct, it's a reasonable conclusion from
outside that there will be serious unacknowledged problems.

e.g. "You literally cannot pay me to speak without a Code of Conduct"
http://rachelnabors.com/2015/09/01/code-of-conduct/

This is literally all well-worn discourse territory, but I'm sure if
you both persist you can wear everyone down.


- d.


--
Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
I don't think the WMF is "trying to exempt itself from its own creation",
it is simpy giving its own staff a privileged position within it.  Anyone
who makes a complaint against a member of staff will have the privacy of
their complaint breached by having details sent to the WMF with its
millions of dollars and its staff of lawyers whose remit is to protect the
Foundation, not the volunteers.  That creates a two-tier system within the
technical community and is bound to have a chilling effect on complaints of
that kind.

Nonetheless, the question I think we should focus on is, should the code as
written be put to the Community for approval and, if so, how?

"Rogol"

On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 5:45 PM, MZMcBride  wrote:

> Tim Landscheidt wrote:
> >This is a circular and illogical argument.  Just because
> >someone has good intentions or invested time and effort does
> >not mean that the path they chose is the right one to take.
> >And if someone is steering towards a cliff, encouraging peo-
> >ple to keep pushing the cart to honour the navigator's dedi-
> >cation is self-destructive.
>
> This is basically the .
> This also can partially explain many of the software development-related
> disputes we've seen with the Wikimedia Foundation. Once a bunch of time,
> energy, and other resources are devoted to a particular software project,
> it becomes a lot more difficult to give it up, even if it's doomed.
>
> Leila Zia wrote:
> >​Matthew used English Wikipedia as one example to say that the statement
> >"This is always the case." is not correct.​ Using English Wikipedia as an
> >example to negate that statement is not in contradiction with what Matthew
> >said to you on mediawiki.org.
>
> Sure, but that wasn't the contradiction (or hypocrisy) I was discussing.
> In one case, Matthew is relying on outside behavior and accepted practices
> on other Wikimedia wikis (re: meatpuppetry, sockpuppetry, etc.). In the
> other case, Matthew is saying outside policies and practices are
> irrelevant as those policies are local to that wiki. You both are quite
> smart enough to see what's happening here.
>
> Vi to wrote:
> >I think methodological objections shouldn't prevail over substantial
> >objections.
> >I can agree most of consensus in CoC draft came from WMF
> >staffers/contractors, but:
> >*no one was prevented from weighing-in
> >*lists were filled with invitations to weigh-in
> >*I think most of us didn't comment just because they agree with the
> >overall meaning of the draft.
> >IMHO most of criticism doesn't actually target the draft but rather
> >increasing influence of WMF in various sectors traditionally
> >community-driven or unregulated. I'm not commenting nor this influence nor
> >the objections but I think CoC is just a symbol of another issue.
>
> I'll try to summarize the latest criticisms and I'll copy them to the talk
> page as well, for posterity.
>
> Re: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Draft
>
> In the most cynical outlook, this is a Wikimedia Foundation-imposed
> policy. The revision history of the page and activity on the related
> Phabricator tasks make this pretty clear:
>  and
> .
>
> The draft text regarding initial committee membership reads: "The first
> Committee will be chosen by the Wikimedia Foundation's Technical
> Collaboration team."
>
> As I pointed out to Pine, there's been a decent amount of discussion
> regarding whether this proposed committee or this entire document can even
> apply to Wikimedia Foundation staff. The Wikimedia Foundation Human
> Resources and Legal teams have weighed in and seem to have attempted to
> carve out an exemption for employees, since they're (probably rightfully)
> concerned that this proposed policy and its committee will create HR and
> Legal headaches.
>
> When asked about specific examples that this code of conduct is attempting
> to address, there has been extreme evasiveness. Problematic behavior in
> technical spaces (for example, spammers in IRC channels, Phabricator, and
> Gerrit) are typically quickly resolved. What is this committee intending
> to work on, exactly? Getting a simple answer to that question has been
> nearly impossible.
>
> And the previous explicit agreements to have a final vote on the document
> have now been changed by one side. Instead of having a final vote, Matthew
> and the rest of the people pushing this document forward are trying to
> claim the ability to use per-section consensus as a basis for overall
> consensus, even though they specifically told people there would be a
> final vote and people supported specific sections with this understanding.
>
> Yes, it is a cynical outlook to be sure, but if you examine what's
> happening here, this a proposed policy from Wikimedia Foundation staffers
> that puts the Wikimedia Foundation in charge of creating 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread David Gerard
On 26 February 2017 at 17:49, Tim Landscheidt  wrote:

> Eh, they do and that is one of the reasons to oppose the
> Code of Conduct.  Its draft implicitly alleges that the
> technical spaces currently are a cesspit that is in urgent
> need of someone with a rake while protecting actual offend-
> ers by granting immunity to "neuroatypical" behaviour.



This is a pretty reasonable presumption regarding technical spaces: if
you *don't* have a code of conduct, it's a reasonable conclusion from
outside that there will be serious unacknowledged problems.

e.g. "You literally cannot pay me to speak without a Code of Conduct"
http://rachelnabors.com/2015/09/01/code-of-conduct/

This is literally all well-worn discourse territory, but I'm sure if
you both persist you can wear everyone down.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Tim Landscheidt
Robert Fernandez  wrote:

>>Personally I'm much more grateful for the people who did not
>>spend their energy on this code of conduct to "accidentally"
>>exercise power over others

> If the organizers of this proposal responded in kind with even a fraction
> of the bad faith accusations that have been leveled at them, the howls of
> outrage would be deafening.

> […]

Eh, they do and that is one of the reasons to oppose the
Code of Conduct.  Its draft implicitly alleges that the
technical spaces currently are a cesspit that is in urgent
need of someone with a rake while protecting actual offend-
ers by granting immunity to "neuroatypical" behaviour.

It also turns the technical spaces from a place that served
to advance Wikimedia's mission into an aimless "community".

Tim


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread MZMcBride
Tim Landscheidt wrote:
>This is a circular and illogical argument.  Just because
>someone has good intentions or invested time and effort does
>not mean that the path they chose is the right one to take.
>And if someone is steering towards a cliff, encouraging peo-
>ple to keep pushing the cart to honour the navigator's dedi-
>cation is self-destructive.

This is basically the .
This also can partially explain many of the software development-related
disputes we've seen with the Wikimedia Foundation. Once a bunch of time,
energy, and other resources are devoted to a particular software project,
it becomes a lot more difficult to give it up, even if it's doomed.

Leila Zia wrote:
>​Matthew used English Wikipedia as one example to say that the statement
>"This is always the case." is not correct.​ Using English Wikipedia as an
>example to negate that statement is not in contradiction with what Matthew
>said to you on mediawiki.org.

Sure, but that wasn't the contradiction (or hypocrisy) I was discussing.
In one case, Matthew is relying on outside behavior and accepted practices
on other Wikimedia wikis (re: meatpuppetry, sockpuppetry, etc.). In the
other case, Matthew is saying outside policies and practices are
irrelevant as those policies are local to that wiki. You both are quite
smart enough to see what's happening here.

Vi to wrote:
>I think methodological objections shouldn't prevail over substantial
>objections.
>I can agree most of consensus in CoC draft came from WMF
>staffers/contractors, but:
>*no one was prevented from weighing-in
>*lists were filled with invitations to weigh-in
>*I think most of us didn't comment just because they agree with the
>overall meaning of the draft.
>IMHO most of criticism doesn't actually target the draft but rather
>increasing influence of WMF in various sectors traditionally
>community-driven or unregulated. I'm not commenting nor this influence nor
>the objections but I think CoC is just a symbol of another issue.

I'll try to summarize the latest criticisms and I'll copy them to the talk
page as well, for posterity.

Re: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Draft

In the most cynical outlook, this is a Wikimedia Foundation-imposed
policy. The revision history of the page and activity on the related
Phabricator tasks make this pretty clear:
 and
.

The draft text regarding initial committee membership reads: "The first
Committee will be chosen by the Wikimedia Foundation's Technical
Collaboration team."

As I pointed out to Pine, there's been a decent amount of discussion
regarding whether this proposed committee or this entire document can even
apply to Wikimedia Foundation staff. The Wikimedia Foundation Human
Resources and Legal teams have weighed in and seem to have attempted to
carve out an exemption for employees, since they're (probably rightfully)
concerned that this proposed policy and its committee will create HR and
Legal headaches.

When asked about specific examples that this code of conduct is attempting
to address, there has been extreme evasiveness. Problematic behavior in
technical spaces (for example, spammers in IRC channels, Phabricator, and
Gerrit) are typically quickly resolved. What is this committee intending
to work on, exactly? Getting a simple answer to that question has been
nearly impossible.

And the previous explicit agreements to have a final vote on the document
have now been changed by one side. Instead of having a final vote, Matthew
and the rest of the people pushing this document forward are trying to
claim the ability to use per-section consensus as a basis for overall
consensus, even though they specifically told people there would be a
final vote and people supported specific sections with this understanding.

Yes, it is a cynical outlook to be sure, but if you examine what's
happening here, this a proposed policy from Wikimedia Foundation staffers
that puts the Wikimedia Foundation in charge of creating a code of conduct
committee. That's already a huge red flag. Add to it that the Wikimedia
Foundation is trying to exempt itself from its own creation, can't cite
what specific problems this new policy/committee is intended to solve, and
has now reneged on previous agreements to hold a final vote, presumably
because there's a concern that a final vote would result in rejection of
this policy. Bleh.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Vi to
I think methodological objections shouldn't prevail over substantial
objections.
I can agree most of consensus in CoC draft came from WMF
staffers/contractors, but:
*no one was prevented from weighing-in
*lists were filled with invitations to weigh-in
*I think most of us didn't comment just because they agree with the overall
meaning of the draft.
IMHO most of criticism doesn't actually target the draft but rather
increasing influence of WMF in various sectors traditionally
community-driven or unregulated. I'm not commenting nor this influence nor
the objections but I think CoC is just a symbol of another issue.

Vito

2017-02-26 15:31 GMT+01:00 Robert Fernandez :

> >Personally I'm much more grateful for the people who did not
> >spend their energy on this code of conduct to "accidentally"
> >exercise power over others
>
> If the organizers of this proposal responded in kind with even a fraction
> of the bad faith accusations that have been leveled at them, the howls of
> outrage would be deafening.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tim Landscheidt 
> wrote:
>
> > Leila Zia  wrote:
> >
> > > […]
> >
> > > On a separate note to those of you who contribute to technical spaces
> and
> > > are not happy about how some aspects have gone:
> >
> > > Matthew and a few other people have been trying /really hard/ to make
> > > Wikimedia's technical spaces better. You know that embarking on such a
> > path
> > > is very difficult: it requires spending many many hours of your time
> > (read
> > > life) on it, elaborating, deliberating, documenting, discussing things
> > with
> > > people from different paths of life, etc. They have been doing it for
> > > months now. It's my understanding that they are doing this not to
> > exercise
> > > power over others but to make our technical spaces better, to make them
> > > more enjoyable to contribute in.
> >
> > > For all of us who contribute in technical spaces, we should remember:
> We
> > > may not agree with every step they take, but we all owe it to them to
> > help
> > > them on this path. What they are doing is a good thing and that's
> > something
> > > that sometimes gets lost in these lengthy conversations.
> >
> > This is a circular and illogical argument.  Just because
> > someone has good intentions or invested time and effort does
> > not mean that the path they chose is the right one to take.
> > And if someone is steering towards a cliff, encouraging peo-
> > ple to keep pushing the cart to honour the navigator's dedi-
> > cation is self-destructive.
> >
> > Personally I'm much more grateful for the people who did not
> > spend their energy on this code of conduct to "accidentally"
> > exercise power over others, but made our technical spaces
> > better and more enjoyable by reporting bugs, debugging, an-
> > swering questions, writing patches, reviewing contributions
> > or creating or translating documentation.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-26 Thread Robert Fernandez
>Personally I'm much more grateful for the people who did not
>spend their energy on this code of conduct to "accidentally"
>exercise power over others

If the organizers of this proposal responded in kind with even a fraction
of the bad faith accusations that have been leveled at them, the howls of
outrage would be deafening.


On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tim Landscheidt 
wrote:

> Leila Zia  wrote:
>
> > […]
>
> > On a separate note to those of you who contribute to technical spaces and
> > are not happy about how some aspects have gone:
>
> > Matthew and a few other people have been trying /really hard/ to make
> > Wikimedia's technical spaces better. You know that embarking on such a
> path
> > is very difficult: it requires spending many many hours of your time
> (read
> > life) on it, elaborating, deliberating, documenting, discussing things
> with
> > people from different paths of life, etc. They have been doing it for
> > months now. It's my understanding that they are doing this not to
> exercise
> > power over others but to make our technical spaces better, to make them
> > more enjoyable to contribute in.
>
> > For all of us who contribute in technical spaces, we should remember: We
> > may not agree with every step they take, but we all owe it to them to
> help
> > them on this path. What they are doing is a good thing and that's
> something
> > that sometimes gets lost in these lengthy conversations.
>
> This is a circular and illogical argument.  Just because
> someone has good intentions or invested time and effort does
> not mean that the path they chose is the right one to take.
> And if someone is steering towards a cliff, encouraging peo-
> ple to keep pushing the cart to honour the navigator's dedi-
> cation is self-destructive.
>
> Personally I'm much more grateful for the people who did not
> spend their energy on this code of conduct to "accidentally"
> exercise power over others, but made our technical spaces
> better and more enjoyable by reporting bugs, debugging, an-
> swering questions, writing patches, reviewing contributions
> or creating or translating documentation.
>
> Tim
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-25 Thread Tim Landscheidt
Leila Zia  wrote:

> […]

> On a separate note to those of you who contribute to technical spaces and
> are not happy about how some aspects have gone:

> Matthew and a few other people have been trying /really hard/ to make
> Wikimedia's technical spaces better. You know that embarking on such a path
> is very difficult: it requires spending many many hours of your time (read
> life) on it, elaborating, deliberating, documenting, discussing things with
> people from different paths of life, etc. They have been doing it for
> months now. It's my understanding that they are doing this not to exercise
> power over others but to make our technical spaces better, to make them
> more enjoyable to contribute in.

> For all of us who contribute in technical spaces, we should remember: We
> may not agree with every step they take, but we all owe it to them to help
> them on this path. What they are doing is a good thing and that's something
> that sometimes gets lost in these lengthy conversations.

This is a circular and illogical argument.  Just because
someone has good intentions or invested time and effort does
not mean that the path they chose is the right one to take.
And if someone is steering towards a cliff, encouraging peo-
ple to keep pushing the cart to honour the navigator's dedi-
cation is self-destructive.

Personally I'm much more grateful for the people who did not
spend their energy on this code of conduct to "accidentally"
exercise power over others, but made our technical spaces
better and more enjoyable by reporting bugs, debugging, an-
swering questions, writing patches, reviewing contributions
or creating or translating documentation.

Tim


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-25 Thread Leila Zia
Hi MZMcBride,

On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 11:15 AM, MZMcBride  wrote:
>
>
> Matthew Flaschen wrote:
> >English Wikipedia policy is clear
> >(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Meatpuppetry):
> >"In votes or vote-like discussions, new users may be disregarded or
> >given significantly less weight, especially if there are many of them
> >expressing the same opinion."
> >
> >Other wikis have similar conventions and policies, and some other wikis
> >even formalize this into required edit counts.
>
> It's darkly amusing to see you citing the English Wikipedia. When I
> pointed out to you on mediawiki.org that
> ​​
> "it would never be appropriate
> for the person who began a discussion to then also close that discussion,"
> you replied that "English Wikipedia policies do not apply here."
>

​Note that when Matthew brought up the example of English Wikipedia (in
"English Wikipedia policy is clear ..."), it was in response to "This is
always the case." in the following comment:

On 02/21/2017 06:24 PM, Todd Allen wrote:

> No. The community I am referring to is all WMF project participants who
> might be interested in presenting their opinion on the subject, regardless
> of whether or not they currently participate in any given specific area.
> That is always the case.

​
​Matthew used English Wikipedia as one example to say that the statement
"This is always the case." is not correct.​ Using English Wikipedia as an
example to negate that statement is not in contradiction with what Matthew
said to you on mediawiki.org.

On a separate note to those of you who contribute to technical spaces and
are not happy about how some aspects have gone:

Matthew and a few other people have been trying /really hard/ to make
Wikimedia's technical spaces better. You know that embarking on such a path
is very difficult: it requires spending many many hours of your time (read
life) on it, elaborating, deliberating, documenting, discussing things with
people from different paths of life, etc. They have been doing it for
months now. It's my understanding that they are doing this not to exercise
power over others but to make our technical spaces better, to make them
more enjoyable to contribute in.

For all of us who contribute in technical spaces, we should remember: We
may not agree with every step they take, but we all owe it to them to help
them on this path. What they are doing is a good thing and that's something
that sometimes gets lost in these lengthy conversations.

Best,
Leila

--
​
Leila Zia
Senior Research Scientist
Wikimedia Foundation


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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-25 Thread MZMcBride
Pine W wrote:
>When I last spent some time looking at the proposal, I too felt that the
>contributions indicated that the policy had far too little community
>influence. *However*, if you'll entertain a hypothetical with me for a
>moment, let's suppose that the status quo continues and there is
>effectively no conduct policy for technical spaces -- in particular,
>Phabricator and MediaWiki, unless I am missing a conduct policy that
>already applies to them outside of the ToS. If there is no policy, is that
>better than the policy that Matthew has been drafting?

The "no conduct policy for technical spaces" argument was debunked here:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-November/085573.html

Pine W also wrote:
>Well, WMF will have to deal with this policy too. (:

Sort of. The proposed text currently includes "If a WMF employee or
contractor is accused of wrongdoing, or a WMF employee or contractor is
reported as being subjected to wrongdoing, the Committee will forward the
report to the employee's or contractor’s manager, and to WMF HR in
writing." It remains very unclear whether this code of conduct policy can
apply to Wikimedia Foundation employees, given comments from the Wikimedia
Foundation's Legal and Human Resources departments.

> While I have mixed feelings about TCoC and the process for its
>creation, I also don't want anarchy in Phabricator and MediaWiki, so it
>seems prudent to explore alternatives.

Anarchy? Huh?

Rogol Domedonfors wrote:
>However, since the end of 2015 the drafting of the code has largely been
>in the hands of a small group of WMF staff, and they have taken it on
>themselves to change that consensus and stated that the code will come
>into effect as soon as the last section is agreed, which will be quite
>soon.
>
>Do the WMF and the wider Community wish to adhere to the initial
>consensus, and put the draft code out to the comunity for adoption?  Or
>will the WMF choose to enact it on their own authority irrespective of
>any community views on the subject?
>
>If the code is to be voted on by the Community, what would be the
>appropriate venue for the vote, and where should the vote be publicised?

It's pretty bizarre that nobody has addressed this. Many people supported
specific sections of the proposed document with an explicit understanding
that there would be a final vote on the full document later. A few members
of Wikimedia Foundation staff then tried to declare that a final vote was
not necessary, violating previous statements and agreements. These same
staff members have also been involved in closing discussions in which they
were active participants or even the initiators of the discussion.

This is all noted at
. I think these
actions will delegitimize the entire document and any processes or
procedures it attempts to implement.

Matthew Flaschen wrote:
>English Wikipedia policy is clear
>(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Meatpuppetry):
>"In votes or vote-like discussions, new users may be disregarded or
>given significantly less weight, especially if there are many of them
>expressing the same opinion."
>
>Other wikis have similar conventions and policies, and some other wikis
>even formalize this into required edit counts.

It's darkly amusing to see you citing the English Wikipedia. When I
pointed out to you on mediawiki.org that "it would never be appropriate
for the person who began a discussion to then also close that discussion,"
you replied that "English Wikipedia policies do not apply here."

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-24 Thread Pine W
> * The people in the WMF and the Affiliates are /part of/ of the
communities.
> * Even the people without extensive years of volunteering, or those who
> only started volunteering at the same time as they became professionally
> involved, are part of the communities.
> * It is illogical for us to tell the people who take on highly-active
> roles, that they are no longer able to lead.
> * We (collectively) try to encourage the extremely capable volunteers to
> apply for jobs, and for grants.
> * If Wikimedia Cascadia becomes a well-funded chapter, and you were a
> staffer of it, would you become ineligible to lead proposals that effect
> your area of activity?

The way that I tend to think about this question -- which as I'll explain
in a minute, I know is simplified -- is that by "the community" we mean
people who are not WMF employees or employees of affiliates, and who
contribute to the Wikiverse in some way.

This email is going to sound legalistic at first but I hope you'll read it
all the way through.

The reason behind that thinking (and others may have their own thoughts on
this) is that WMF and affiliate employees are receiving financial and
non-financial compensation from WMF or their affiliate, and they have
strong incentives -- in some cases, legal obligations -- to do what their
employer tells them to do and to comply with their contracts, or else lose
their job and possibly get a bad reference which could impact the
likelihood of them being hired by anyone else. Also, I doubt that many WMF
and affiliate employees would feel that it's permissible and safe for them
to publicly critique the members of their governing boards, which is
another difference between employees and community members.

There are also cultural differences. WMF is organized hierarchically, is
opaque about details of its financial spending (an illustration of this was
the contract with Sue for consulting work which was a surprise when I
learned about it), has chosen to use technical means to override community
RfC decisions (such as with Superprotect), and isn't a membership
organization.

WMF does a lot of valuable work in support of the community, for example by
running servers, handling subpoenas, developing software, and providing
grants to individuals and organizations. Affiliate employees also do very
important work, such as with Wikidata and the Wikipedia in Education
program.

Admittedly, the dichotomy of "community membership" / "employee" is a
simplification. For example, individual grantees and contractors may do
temporary or part-time work for WMF or an affiliate. Affiliates as
organizations have some interest in the health and policies of WMF and
staying on somewhat good terms with WMF, particularly regarding WMF's role
as a grantmaker and provider of trademark licenses.

I think that having WMF and affiliate employees in support roles is
important and valuable. However, one place where problems start to surface
is when WMF or affiliate employees start to tell their communities what to
do. That is not their job. Their job is to support the community and to
implement policy, not to manage the community, and not to create policy
without approval from either their organization's board or from the
community that they serve.

The "community" vs "employee" dichotomy makes it sound like there are no
shades of gray, but there are, and I'd welcome conversations about how to
develop a vocabulary that better illustrates this.

To answer your last question directly: yes, there are initiatives which I
would feel would be inappropriate for me to lead as an affiliate or WMF
employee, for example I would feel OK about *facilitating* community
discussion about a global ban policy but I wouldn't want to create and
impose that policy myself without some kind of community consensus. Also, I
would be much more cautious about what I chose to say about the governance
of WMF and my affiliate employer, because I would have financial and
employment interests that would conflict with my ability to speak candidly,
especially in public.


A brief follow-up to Adrian regarding :
> A lack of other community members participation is perhaps half on a lack
> of advertising, and half on a lack of interest.

From what I can see, Matthew has been thorough about trying to recruit
participation.

I'm trying to leave the door open to approving some kind of TCoC. Perhaps
there will indeed be community consensus to approve the draft that's
currently in the works -- I don't know. I prefer a different process and
some changes to the draft, but with the information that I have it's
impossible for me to predict what the outcome of an RfC on the final
document will be. If it's approved with significant community (i.e. non-WMF
support), I'll learn to accept it or propose amendments at some point. I
realize that there has been good-faith effort in developing that draft, and
I appreciate the effort even if the draft doesn't pass. From my
perspective, a 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-24 Thread Adrian Raddatz
WMF staff are certainly contributors within the technical spaces. There's
no reason why they shouldn't be able to participate in the COC formation
process (which I have unrelated concerns with...)

A lack of other community members participation is perhaps half on a lack
of advertising, and half on a lack of interest.

Adrian Raddatz

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 4:12 PM, quiddity  wrote:

> * The people in the WMF and the Affiliates are /part of/ of the
> communities.
> * Even the people without extensive years of volunteering, or those who
> only started volunteering at the same time as they became professionally
> involved, are part of the communities.
> * It is illogical for us to tell the people who take on highly-active
> roles, that they are no longer able to lead.
> * We (collectively) try to encourage the extremely capable volunteers to
> apply for jobs, and for grants.
> * If Wikimedia Cascadia becomes a well-funded chapter, and you were a
> staffer of it, would you become ineligible to lead proposals that effect
> your area of activity?
>
> --
> quiddity
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Pine W  wrote:
>
> > Let me rephrase and elaborate on that point. Phabricator and MediaWiki
> > aren't the WMF wiki. I think that WMF employees' proposals, comments,
> > questions, and suggestions can be welcome for TCoC drafting. However, in
> > terms of process leadership and in terms of proportion of input, I would
> > like to see -- and I think that the proposal would be more likely to pass
> > an RfC on adoption for the whole document -- community leadership of the
> > process, and a greater proportion of community input.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Erik Bernhardson <
> > ebernhard...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Pine W  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > A point I should make is that I think that Matthew and others made
> some
> > > > good-faith efforts with the current draft. I would have proposed far
> > less
> > > > WMF involvement with the draft
> > >
> > >
> > > One thing I just don't understand here, why should the people that
> > > participate in technical spaces more than most (because it's their job
> to
> > > do so) not be involved?
> > > ___
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> > > 
> > >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-24 Thread quiddity
* The people in the WMF and the Affiliates are /part of/ of the communities.
* Even the people without extensive years of volunteering, or those who
only started volunteering at the same time as they became professionally
involved, are part of the communities.
* It is illogical for us to tell the people who take on highly-active
roles, that they are no longer able to lead.
* We (collectively) try to encourage the extremely capable volunteers to
apply for jobs, and for grants.
* If Wikimedia Cascadia becomes a well-funded chapter, and you were a
staffer of it, would you become ineligible to lead proposals that effect
your area of activity?

-- 
quiddity


On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> Let me rephrase and elaborate on that point. Phabricator and MediaWiki
> aren't the WMF wiki. I think that WMF employees' proposals, comments,
> questions, and suggestions can be welcome for TCoC drafting. However, in
> terms of process leadership and in terms of proportion of input, I would
> like to see -- and I think that the proposal would be more likely to pass
> an RfC on adoption for the whole document -- community leadership of the
> process, and a greater proportion of community input.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Erik Bernhardson <
> ebernhard...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Pine W  wrote:
> > >
> > > A point I should make is that I think that Matthew and others made some
> > > good-faith efforts with the current draft. I would have proposed far
> less
> > > WMF involvement with the draft
> >
> >
> > One thing I just don't understand here, why should the people that
> > participate in technical spaces more than most (because it's their job to
> > do so) not be involved?
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-24 Thread Pine W
Let me rephrase and elaborate on that point. Phabricator and MediaWiki
aren't the WMF wiki. I think that WMF employees' proposals, comments,
questions, and suggestions can be welcome for TCoC drafting. However, in
terms of process leadership and in terms of proportion of input, I would
like to see -- and I think that the proposal would be more likely to pass
an RfC on adoption for the whole document -- community leadership of the
process, and a greater proportion of community input.

Pine


On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Erik Bernhardson <
ebernhard...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Pine W  wrote:
> >
> > A point I should make is that I think that Matthew and others made some
> > good-faith efforts with the current draft. I would have proposed far less
> > WMF involvement with the draft
>
>
> One thing I just don't understand here, why should the people that
> participate in technical spaces more than most (because it's their job to
> do so) not be involved?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-24 Thread Erik Bernhardson
On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Pine W  wrote:
>
> A point I should make is that I think that Matthew and others made some
> good-faith efforts with the current draft. I would have proposed far less
> WMF involvement with the draft


One thing I just don't understand here, why should the people that
participate in technical spaces more than most (because it's their job to
do so) not be involved?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-24 Thread Todd Allen
I think we definitely should think about next steps if the draft fails to
gain consensus. (And, for that matter, if it does get consensus, there will
be a lot of followup work in that case too.)

But if it fails, one of the most important questions will be "Why did
people object to this and how can we address those issues?"

On Feb 24, 2017 2:15 PM, "Pine W"  wrote:

> Well, WMF will have to deal with this policy too. (:
>
> I'm cautious about using a plurality of comments on this list as a proxy
> for an RfC, but if I was WMF and I was looking at the comments on this
> thread, I would be giving a lot of thought to fallbacks in case the RfC
> either fails to achieve consensus or if there is a consensus against it.
>
> I'm going to do something bold here and ping Maggie. I met her long before
> she was promoted to her current exalted position, and I like how she thinks
> about problems. I'm not promising to agree with her on this issue, but I'd
> be really interested in hearing her thoughts about options if the TCoC does
> not achieve consensus. I'm asking for opinions and options,rather than
> decisions.While I have mixed feelings about TCoC and the process for its
> creation, I also don't want anarchy in Phabricator and MediaWiki, so it
> seems prudent to explore alternatives.
>
> A point I should make is that I think that Matthew and others made some
> good-faith efforts with the current draft. I would have proposed far less
> WMF involvement with the draft, but in principle I tend to think that there
> should be some kind of baseline expectation for civil conduct, some
> explanations of what that means, and some ways for the community (i.e. not
> WMF) to address behavior problems in places like Phabricator and MediaWiki.
> Even if this iteration of the TCoC is not adopted, perhaps with some
> modifications or revisions and with community leadership, some kind of TCoC
> will be adopted at a future date.
>
> Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-24 Thread Pine W
Well, WMF will have to deal with this policy too. (:

I'm cautious about using a plurality of comments on this list as a proxy
for an RfC, but if I was WMF and I was looking at the comments on this
thread, I would be giving a lot of thought to fallbacks in case the RfC
either fails to achieve consensus or if there is a consensus against it.

I'm going to do something bold here and ping Maggie. I met her long before
she was promoted to her current exalted position, and I like how she thinks
about problems. I'm not promising to agree with her on this issue, but I'd
be really interested in hearing her thoughts about options if the TCoC does
not achieve consensus. I'm asking for opinions and options,rather than
decisions.While I have mixed feelings about TCoC and the process for its
creation, I also don't want anarchy in Phabricator and MediaWiki, so it
seems prudent to explore alternatives.

A point I should make is that I think that Matthew and others made some
good-faith efforts with the current draft. I would have proposed far less
WMF involvement with the draft, but in principle I tend to think that there
should be some kind of baseline expectation for civil conduct, some
explanations of what that means, and some ways for the community (i.e. not
WMF) to address behavior problems in places like Phabricator and MediaWiki.
Even if this iteration of the TCoC is not adopted, perhaps with some
modifications or revisions and with community leadership, some kind of TCoC
will be adopted at a future date.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-24 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
Pine


When I last spent some time looking at the proposal, I too felt that the
> contributions indicated that the policy had far too little community
> influence. *However*, if you'll entertain a hypothetical with me for a
> moment, let's suppose that the status quo continues and there is
> effectively no conduct policy for technical spaces -- in particular,
> Phabricator and MediaWiki, unless I am missing a conduct policy that
> already applies to them outside of the ToS. If there is no policy, is that
> better than the policy that Matthew has been drafting?
>

Perhaps that is a good reason for putting the decision to the Community:
collectively they are the people who have to deal with the consequences of
a flawed or non-existent policy.

"Rogol"
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-23 Thread Pine W
Hi Rogol,

When I last spent some time looking at the proposal, I too felt that the
contributions indicated that the policy had far too little community
influence. *However*, if you'll entertain a hypothetical with me for a
moment, let's suppose that the status quo continues and there is
effectively no conduct policy for technical spaces -- in particular,
Phabricator and MediaWiki, unless I am missing a conduct policy that
already applies to them outside of the ToS. If there is no policy, is that
better than the policy that Matthew has been drafting?

I am not saying that I am happy with the process or content of the proposed
policy. On the other hand, I also think there should be something
resembling a civility policy and a system for enforcing it, for Phabricator
and MediaWiki in particular. So if the Code of Conduct that Matthew is
proposing fails in any number of ways (e.g. failing its RfC, failing
through lack of enforcement, etc.), what would you propose be done instead?

I'll note that I'm an admin on the Outreach wiki, where are policies are
few and far between, but fortunately there are few disputes on Outreach,
and most of the problematic behavior that I've seen as an admin involved
clear-cut cases of spam, so I haven't felt a need for us to spend countless
hours drafting and discussing policies. I wonder, are the Phabricator and
Mediawiki spaces generally civil enough that this CoC is disproportionately
weighty as compared to the problems, or would a CoC be a net benefit to
them? What do you (and others) think? I'm not experienced enough in those
spaces to feel like I know enough about them to say one way or the other.
Much as I'm unenthusiastic about the TCoC, I would hope that if there is
not a consensus to implement it, that the consequences and possible
follow-up actions from that decision are carefully considered.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-22 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 3:46 AM, Matthew Flaschen 
wrote:

> However, both volunteers and staff participants have joined the CoC
> process.


Matthew is too modest – the discussions has been managed by staff since
late 2015, almost all of the contributions to the discussion have been from
staff members, the consultants discussed the process only with staff and
their alleged report was never shown to other participants, part of the
text was dictated directly by WMF Legal staff with others forbidden to
discuss it, and Matthew himself has managed most of the recent work on
opening and closing the discussions, and promoting his "decision" that a
community vote was not necessary.

Without a reference to the community for acceptance, this will be a WMF
policy, imposed by the authority of the WMF.  If the community are happy
with that, all well and good.  But let's not pretend that it's anything
else.

"Rogol"
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-22 Thread Matthew Flaschen

On 02/21/2017 06:24 PM, Todd Allen wrote:

No. The community I am referring to is all WMF project participants who
might be interested in presenting their opinion on the subject, regardless
of whether or not they currently participate in any given specific area.
That is always the case.


No, it certainly is not.

Generally users who are not part of the community/just joined for the 
discussion do not have the same weight, and their position may be 
disregarded entirely.


English Wikipedia policy is clear 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Meatpuppetry): 
"In votes or vote-like discussions, new users may be disregarded or 
given significantly less weight, especially if there are many of them 
expressing the same opinion."


Other wikis have similar conventions and policies, and some other wikis 
even formalize this into required edit counts.


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-22 Thread Matthew Flaschen

On 02/21/2017 05:42 PM, Erik Bernhardson wrote:

It's not particularly clear hear, which community? The developers of

mediawiki-core? extension developers? people who attend hackathons and
such? It seems all of these groups have been bombarded with calls to
participate in the process over the last year and have had plenty of
opportunity to be heard. That only a small group of WMF staff have decided
to participate, almost entirely in their free time as volunteers and not
paid employees, doesn't seem to change that.


I agree that it's been widely announced in the appropriate venues (e.g. 
wikitech-l and other lists, Phabricator, MediaWiki.org).  Ultimately, 
what matters is whether they are a participant in the technical 
community, not whether they are a volunteer or staff.  However, both 
volunteers and staff participants have joined the CoC process.


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-22 Thread Matthew Flaschen

On 02/21/2017 05:36 PM, Lane Rasberry wrote:

I would like for whatever is adopted to match other similar proposals. So
far as I know, the technical space proposal is not compared with the
"online" proposal or the "events" proposal.


Although those are training modules and the Code of Conduct for 
technical spaces is a draft policy, the purposes are consistent.


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-21 Thread Todd Allen
No. The community I am referring to is all WMF project participants who
might be interested in presenting their opinion on the subject, regardless
of whether or not they currently participate in any given specific area.
That is always the case.

Todd

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Erik Bernhardson <
ebernhard...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Todd Allen  wrote:
>
> > Actually, I had no idea it was going on until very recently. It seems the
> > initial communications were pretty much restricted to those already
> > involved in technical areas or mailing lists.
> >
> > "The community", when we're talking about something that will affect
> > everyone, means, well, everyone who cares to participate in the
> discussion.
> > The final version should be advertised as widely as possible, and the
> > community (not a subset of it) should decide if it's acceptable.
> >
> > Again this hasn't defined what the community is.  The opening statement
> of
> the draft says
>
> This is a *code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces*. It applies both
> > within physical spaces, such as Wikimedia technical events and Wikimedia
> > technical presentations in other events, and virtual spaces
> (MediaWiki.org,
> > wikitech.wikimedia.org ,
> Phabricator
> > , Gerrit
> > , technical
> > mailing lists
> >  MediaWiki_and_technical>
> > , technical IRC channels
> > ,
> > and Etherpad  >
> > ).
>
>
> Is this the community you are referring to?
>
>
> > The fact that some people have participated on specific parts does not
> > negate the need for ratification of the full and final version. Work on
> > individual sections hammers out what you're going to present to the
> > community. It does not bypass the need to actually do that.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Erik Bernhardson <
> > ebernhard...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> > domedonf...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This code has been under discussion at
> > > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft since the
> > > summer
> > > > of 2015, and is finally nearing completion.  The original consensus
> in
> > > 2015
> > > > had been that the completed code would be submitted to the community
> > for
> > > > ratification and adoption.  However, since the end of 2015 the
> drafting
> > > of
> > > > the code has largely been in the hands of a small group of WMF staff,
> > and
> > > > they have taken it on themselves to change that consensus and stated
> > that
> > > > the code will come into effect as soon as the last section is agreed,
> > > which
> > > > will be quite soon.
> > > >
> > > > Do the WMF and the wider Community wish to adhere to the initial
> > > consensus,
> > > > and put the draft code out to the comunity for adoption?  Or will the
> > WMF
> > > > choose to enact it on their own authority irrespective of any
> community
> > > > views on the subject?
> > > >
> > > > It's not particularly clear hear, which community? The developers of
> > > mediawiki-core? extension developers? people who attend hackathons and
> > > such? It seems all of these groups have been bombarded with calls to
> > > participate in the process over the last year and have had plenty of
> > > opportunity to be heard. That only a small group of WMF staff have
> > decided
> > > to participate, almost entirely in their free time as volunteers and
> not
> > > paid employees, doesn't seem to change that.
> > >
> > >
> > > > If the code is to be voted on by the Community, what would be the
> > > > appropriate venue for the vote, and where should the vote be
> > publicised?
> > > >
> > > > "Rogol"
> > > > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-21 Thread Erik Bernhardson
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Todd Allen  wrote:

> Actually, I had no idea it was going on until very recently. It seems the
> initial communications were pretty much restricted to those already
> involved in technical areas or mailing lists.
>
> "The community", when we're talking about something that will affect
> everyone, means, well, everyone who cares to participate in the discussion.
> The final version should be advertised as widely as possible, and the
> community (not a subset of it) should decide if it's acceptable.
>
> Again this hasn't defined what the community is.  The opening statement of
the draft says

This is a *code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces*. It applies both
> within physical spaces, such as Wikimedia technical events and Wikimedia
> technical presentations in other events, and virtual spaces (MediaWiki.org,
> wikitech.wikimedia.org , Phabricator
> , Gerrit
> , technical
> mailing lists
> 
> , technical IRC channels
> ,
> and Etherpad 
> ).


Is this the community you are referring to?


> The fact that some people have participated on specific parts does not
> negate the need for ratification of the full and final version. Work on
> individual sections hammers out what you're going to present to the
> community. It does not bypass the need to actually do that.
>
> Todd
>
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Erik Bernhardson <
> ebernhard...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> domedonf...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This code has been under discussion at
> > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft since the
> > summer
> > > of 2015, and is finally nearing completion.  The original consensus in
> > 2015
> > > had been that the completed code would be submitted to the community
> for
> > > ratification and adoption.  However, since the end of 2015 the drafting
> > of
> > > the code has largely been in the hands of a small group of WMF staff,
> and
> > > they have taken it on themselves to change that consensus and stated
> that
> > > the code will come into effect as soon as the last section is agreed,
> > which
> > > will be quite soon.
> > >
> > > Do the WMF and the wider Community wish to adhere to the initial
> > consensus,
> > > and put the draft code out to the comunity for adoption?  Or will the
> WMF
> > > choose to enact it on their own authority irrespective of any community
> > > views on the subject?
> > >
> > > It's not particularly clear hear, which community? The developers of
> > mediawiki-core? extension developers? people who attend hackathons and
> > such? It seems all of these groups have been bombarded with calls to
> > participate in the process over the last year and have had plenty of
> > opportunity to be heard. That only a small group of WMF staff have
> decided
> > to participate, almost entirely in their free time as volunteers and not
> > paid employees, doesn't seem to change that.
> >
> >
> > > If the code is to be voted on by the Community, what would be the
> > > appropriate venue for the vote, and where should the vote be
> publicised?
> > >
> > > "Rogol"
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-21 Thread Todd Allen
Actually, I had no idea it was going on until very recently. It seems the
initial communications were pretty much restricted to those already
involved in technical areas or mailing lists.

"The community", when we're talking about something that will affect
everyone, means, well, everyone who cares to participate in the discussion.
The final version should be advertised as widely as possible, and the
community (not a subset of it) should decide if it's acceptable.

The fact that some people have participated on specific parts does not
negate the need for ratification of the full and final version. Work on
individual sections hammers out what you're going to present to the
community. It does not bypass the need to actually do that.

Todd

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Erik Bernhardson <
ebernhard...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Rogol Domedonfors 
> wrote:
>
> > This code has been under discussion at
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft since the
> summer
> > of 2015, and is finally nearing completion.  The original consensus in
> 2015
> > had been that the completed code would be submitted to the community for
> > ratification and adoption.  However, since the end of 2015 the drafting
> of
> > the code has largely been in the hands of a small group of WMF staff, and
> > they have taken it on themselves to change that consensus and stated that
> > the code will come into effect as soon as the last section is agreed,
> which
> > will be quite soon.
> >
> > Do the WMF and the wider Community wish to adhere to the initial
> consensus,
> > and put the draft code out to the comunity for adoption?  Or will the WMF
> > choose to enact it on their own authority irrespective of any community
> > views on the subject?
> >
> > It's not particularly clear hear, which community? The developers of
> mediawiki-core? extension developers? people who attend hackathons and
> such? It seems all of these groups have been bombarded with calls to
> participate in the process over the last year and have had plenty of
> opportunity to be heard. That only a small group of WMF staff have decided
> to participate, almost entirely in their free time as volunteers and not
> paid employees, doesn't seem to change that.
>
>
> > If the code is to be voted on by the Community, what would be the
> > appropriate venue for the vote, and where should the vote be publicised?
> >
> > "Rogol"
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-21 Thread Erik Bernhardson
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Rogol Domedonfors 
wrote:

> This code has been under discussion at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft since the summer
> of 2015, and is finally nearing completion.  The original consensus in 2015
> had been that the completed code would be submitted to the community for
> ratification and adoption.  However, since the end of 2015 the drafting of
> the code has largely been in the hands of a small group of WMF staff, and
> they have taken it on themselves to change that consensus and stated that
> the code will come into effect as soon as the last section is agreed, which
> will be quite soon.
>
> Do the WMF and the wider Community wish to adhere to the initial consensus,
> and put the draft code out to the comunity for adoption?  Or will the WMF
> choose to enact it on their own authority irrespective of any community
> views on the subject?
>
> It's not particularly clear hear, which community? The developers of
mediawiki-core? extension developers? people who attend hackathons and
such? It seems all of these groups have been bombarded with calls to
participate in the process over the last year and have had plenty of
opportunity to be heard. That only a small group of WMF staff have decided
to participate, almost entirely in their free time as volunteers and not
paid employees, doesn't seem to change that.


> If the code is to be voted on by the Community, what would be the
> appropriate venue for the vote, and where should the vote be publicised?
>
> "Rogol"
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Draft Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces

2017-02-21 Thread Lane Rasberry
Hello,

As of January the WMF has presented these also -

Dealing with online harassment
<
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Training_modules/Online_harassment/First_draft
>

Keeping events safe
<
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Training_modules/Keeping_events_safe/First_draft
>

I would like for whatever is adopted to match other similar proposals. So
far as I know, the technical space proposal is not compared with the
"online" proposal or the "events" proposal.

All of these are fine for informal consideration but I am not sure that now
is the time to call for final review of any of them. Votes take so much
community attention. I would be happy with any small group informally
approving any of these and circulating them slowly for a while instead of
calling for a vote just yet.

Thoughts?



On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Rogol Domedonfors 
wrote:

> This code has been under discussion at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft since the summer
> of 2015, and is finally nearing completion.  The original consensus in 2015
> had been that the completed code would be submitted to the community for
> ratification and adoption.  However, since the end of 2015 the drafting of
> the code has largely been in the hands of a small group of WMF staff, and
> they have taken it on themselves to change that consensus and stated that
> the code will come into effect as soon as the last section is agreed, which
> will be quite soon.
>
> Do the WMF and the wider Community wish to adhere to the initial consensus,
> and put the draft code out to the comunity for adoption?  Or will the WMF
> choose to enact it on their own authority irrespective of any community
> views on the subject?
>
> If the code is to be voted on by the Community, what would be the
> appropriate venue for the vote, and where should the vote be publicised?
>
> "Rogol"
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-- 
Lane Rasberry
user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
206.801.0814
l...@bluerasberry.com
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