Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-20 Thread Tomasz W. Kozlowski
Well, it's Monday SF time (4 PM if Google doesn't lie to me), and we're still waiting for some explanations on why this situations happened /at all/. -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-20 Thread Milos Rancic
On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: Well, it's Monday SF time (4 PM if Google doesn't lie to me), and we're still waiting for some explanations on why this situations happened /at all/. The problem with this kind of actions is personal inability

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Jane Darnell
I can sympathize with the issue, namely, that it would be nice if only Foundation employees could be allowed admin access on their own wiki. I recall a similar issue (which was not so widely blown up) for our WMNL board wiki in the Netherlands (and yes Phoebe, that is a very boring wiki). I find

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Peter Southwood
Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:03 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least) So, I took Florence's excellent advice and went for a walk (beautiful day in SF, by the way - absolutely perfect). And I reflected on what I've

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread James Alexander
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 12:00 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Lets get a few things in perspective: 1. How many community members were abusive/unreasonable/whatever beyond what might be considered a startle reaction to an apparent attack without warning? 2 How many

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Keegan Peterzell
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:03 AM, James Alexander jameso...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 12:00 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Lets get a few things in perspective: 1. How many community members were abusive/unreasonable/whatever beyond what might be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Thomas Goldammer
Just a general note, could you please all wait for Gayle to get back to her office? ^^ I think she wanted to address some of the things discussed here on Monday, which is by San Francisco time. So maybe let it rest for a few hours now? :) Th. p.s. sorry about the empty email, my mouse is broken

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Huib Laurens
Hi, The Wikimedia Foundation site says the following: The Wikimedia Foundation is proud http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Values to be one of the most transparent non-profit organizations in the world. But the decission to remove administrator rights is made internaly, thats not transparent?

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Huib Laurens
Thomas, She is on holiday, she will not be in the office today? Huib On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Thomas Goldammer tho...@gmail.com wrote: Just a general note, could you please all wait for Gayle to get back to her office? ^^ I think she wanted to address some of the things discussed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Heather Ford
On May 13, 2013, at 6:57 AM, phoebe ayers wrote: You know, it's kind of the ultimate Wikimedian tempest: arguing over who gets to add users and delete pages on what is quite possibly the world's most boring wiki[1]... I would take a stab and stay that it's not about who gets access but about how

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Thomas Goldammer
but will circle back when I return to work next Monday. (Gayle) Wait for that. Whatever time it actually means. :) Th. 2013/5/13 Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com Thomas, She is on holiday, she will not be in the office today? Huib ___

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Thomas Morton
I've been watching this unfold over the weekend. And am sorely disapointed with the rudeness from ALL sides (not from everyone, it should be said) The action of removing admin access with little warning, and last thing on a Friday is obnoxious and rude. I'd expect the foundation to review

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Florence Devouard
On 5/13/13 8:54 AM, Theo10011 wrote: Hi Casey First, I miss seeing you around, in case you are not omnipresent anymore. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Casey Brown li...@caseybrown.org wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Try and be a bit nicer

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Peter Southwood
jameso...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 7:50 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least) * I'm just going to top post here because responding to you in line won't be helpful to anybody.The staff

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Fae
On 13 May 2013 08:18, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:03 AM, James Alexander jameso...@gmail.comwrote: That's a bit relative, James. The active folk on this mailing list make for a pretty good cross section of thoughts/feelings/opinions of the movement.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Peter Southwood
That was actually my point. Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: James Alexander jameso...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least) On Mon, May 13

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Craig Franklin
Upon reading Gayle's response, and reflecting on some of the comments I made on Saturday night, I have come to the conclusion that some of the things I said may have come across as a little harsh and condescending. While that was my intention (my point was that sometimes the community can bite,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Florence Devouard
On 5/13/13 9:27 AM, Heather Ford wrote: On May 13, 2013, at 6:57 AM, phoebe ayers wrote: You know, it's kind of the ultimate Wikimedian tempest: arguing over who gets to add users and delete pages on what is quite possibly the world's most boring wiki[1]... I would take a stab and stay that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Philippe Beaudette, 13/05/2013 11:21: I actually was, Florence :-) Let's see... https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=prevoldid=55625971 First (registered user, non deleted) edit 28 May... so not 7 years yet? ;-) And of course answering on day counts is a very constructive way to address Florence's

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Heather Ford
On May 13, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Florence Devouard wrote: On 5/13/13 9:27 AM, Heather Ford wrote: On May 13, 2013, at 6:57 AM, phoebe ayers wrote: You know, it's kind of the ultimate Wikimedian tempest: arguing over who gets to add users and delete pages on what is quite possibly the world's most

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Philippe Beaudette
Previous account, Nemo. :) — Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc On May 13, 2013, at 3:01 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Philippe Beaudette, 13/05/2013 11:21: I actually was, Florence :-) Let's see...

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Florence Devouard
omg, he just admitted sockpupetting !!! On 5/13/13 12:35 PM, Philippe Beaudette wrote: Previous account, Nemo. :) — Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc On May 13, 2013, at 3:01 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Philippe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Tomasz W. Kozlowski
This isn't a comment aimed at anyone in particular, so I'm not going to quote anybody, but can we please stop hijacking this thread, and posting about how Wikimedia Foundation staff are also humans and how the WMF was badly organised X years ago — which are valid discussion for a different

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Yaroslav M. Blanter
On 13.05.2013 14:07, Tomasz W. Kozlowski wrote: This isn't a comment aimed at anyone in particular, so I'm not going to quote anybody, but can we please stop hijacking this thread, and posting about how Wikimedia Foundation staff are also humans and how the WMF was badly organised X years ago —

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Matthew Roth
Wading into the water here. I hope we can separate the blog issue out a bit from the Foundation wiki issue, at least in terms of the user rights part. I was the one who changed a whole slew of user rights from Editor to Contributor, which in our WordPress setup limits some of their abilities,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Todd Allen
Philippe, Thank you for a thoughtful reply. I have especially taken seriously your advice to moderate the tone, something I have been guilty of in the past. We expect editors to treat one another respectfully even when they disagree, and I think staff should receive the same courtesy. That

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
hi Florence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry sockpuppeting is using more than one account in the same time. There are legitimate situations when users have a new account set up (e.g. after forgetting a password). Also, some users have multiple accounts for privacy reasons.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Theo10011
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak dar...@alk.edu.plwrote: hi Florence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry sockpuppeting is using more than one account in the same time. There are legitimate situations when users have a new account set up (e.g. after

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Andy Mabbett
On 13 May 2013 18:01, Oliver Keyes oke...@wikimedia.org wrote: .You bring up Echo; yes, we didn't bring the Orange Bar back. But we spent a lot of cycles coming up with alternatives, running them past people, with many editors and many staffers actively engaged in the process. We had

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread David Goodman
Basically, you (in the plural) thought you could do better than the consensus, and therefore simply without rejecting it , did not implement it while you tried other things first. All these trials would have been good, ''had they been done before implementation.'' I am waiting for someone from

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Isarra Yos
Employees have a separate wiki specifically for employee things. The foundationwiki is different from that, serving as a forefront to the movement itself, something which we are all a part of - and that admin access should be reflecting people's specific type of association with the movement

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
Theo, I know who Florence is and was, and quite honestly her suggestion that Philippe was sockpuppeting in my view only called for this short reminder. And if she joked, I'm sure she appreciated it, too. :) PS You forgot the /facepalm tag! dj On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Theo10011

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Erik Moeller
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:56 AM, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: Basically, you (in the plural) thought you could do better than the consensus, and therefore simply without rejecting it , did not implement it while you tried other things first. All these trials would have been good,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Tomasz W. Kozlowski
Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: If I read the e-mails correctly, 1 and 2 were covered. 1 is Gayle, and 2 is that it was on her to do list for a long time, so apparently she decided to perform this on Friday afternoon since it was not pleasant and had to be done anyway. I'm not so sure about

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread Florence Devouard
On 5/13/13 6:39 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak wrote: hi Florence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry sockpuppeting is using more than one account in the same time. There are legitimate situations when users have a new account set up (e.g. after forgetting a password). Also, some

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-13 Thread David Goodman
right; wrong thread. But yes,beta is good,as with the virtual editor. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:56 AM, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: Basically, you (in the plural) thought you could do better than the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Craig Franklin
Well, perhaps there was extensive consultation from Phillippe and Gayle if it had been planned over a long period of time and I just missed it. If that's the case, I'm sure that one of them will point it out for us first thing on Monday morning, at which point I'd have to start removing egg from

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Florence Devouard
On 5/11/13 8:01 PM, Seb35 wrote: Thanks a lot for this explanation. On the other side, wikis not only need content producers (here WMF) but also curators (wikignomes) who are sorting the pages, deleting and moving pages, typocorrecting, templating things, helping new users in formatting texts,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Thehelpfulone
On 12 May 2013 18:47, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.com wrote: Alternatively, it might be good to really move as much as possible of the Wikimedia Foundation Wiki to meta (where at least, the community is in charge of who is admin and who is not). Mostly in charge, there are a few

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Florence Devouard
On 5/12/13 8:13 PM, David Gerard wrote: On 12 May 2013 18:47, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.com wrote: Alternatively, it might be good to really move as much as possible of the Wikimedia Foundation Wiki to meta (where at least, the community is in charge of who is admin and who is not).

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Florence Devouard
On 5/12/13 8:26 PM, Thehelpfulone wrote: On 12 May 2013 18:47, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.com wrote: Alternatively, it might be good to really move as much as possible of the Wikimedia Foundation Wiki to meta (where at least, the community is in charge of who is admin and who is not).

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Thehelpfulone
On 12 May 2013 19:44, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.com wrote: :) Yeah, pretty bad. The main reason I would consider WMF wiki SHOULD NOT be an entirely staff-controlled and operated site is the fact we originally wanted it to be at least in part multilingual. Current staff does not seem

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Thehelpfulone, 12/05/2013 20:58: For what it's worth, I did try to get some re-translation organised in early February: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF and asked communications staff at the WMF for their input. To be fair to them they did say that they'd look into it and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Yaroslav M. Blanter
On 12.05.2013 20:44, Florence Devouard wrote: The multilingualism we hoped so dearly has always been an issue. It is poorly dealt with on the Wikimedia Foundation blog. Poorly dealt with on the Foundation Wiki. Poorly dealt with on OTRS. :( Florence If someone approaches me and asks to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Florence Devouard
On 5/12/13 9:28 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: On 12.05.2013 20:44, Florence Devouard wrote: The multilingualism we hoped so dearly has always been an issue. It is poorly dealt with on the Wikimedia Foundation blog. Poorly dealt with on the Foundation Wiki. Poorly dealt with on OTRS. :(

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Philippe Beaudette
That is correct. Because despite your attempts to turn me into the decision making authority here, I wasn't. You don't need to talk to the worker bee who executed, you want to talk to the person who made the decision. That's not me. And she is traveling. And also, you know, I'm working brutal

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread MZMcBride
Philippe Beaudette wrote: You want an explanation? I'm sure that Gayle will offer one. But for the umpteenth time, I was the person pushing the button because someone had to be. Why did you feel compelled to act here when it wasn't your decision? Was there something preventing Gayle from doing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
MZMcBride, 12/05/2013 22:45: Why did you feel compelled to act here when it wasn't your decision? Was there something preventing Gayle from doing this herself? Be honest, if Gayle had done this herself you would have said that maybe she hadn't read the documentation on Special:UserRights

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Florence Devouard
On 5/12/13 10:45 PM, MZMcBride wrote: Philippe Beaudette wrote: You want an explanation? I'm sure that Gayle will offer one. But for the umpteenth time, I was the person pushing the button because someone had to be. Why did you feel compelled to act here when it wasn't your decision? Was

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Craig Franklin
Thanks for clarifying this Phillippe. I must say that I think this discussion is becoming unpleasantly personal (and my initial email on the topic probably didn't help there, I concede). How about we stop pointing fingers at each other and conduct an honest and transparent appraisal of what has

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 05/12/2013 04:42 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: The most he could ask from you is a comment on how frequently you have to be the one pushing the button against the community. Again with this meme! Against the community. *NOBODY* works against the community. Sometimes, we do things that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Tim Starling
On 12/05/13 02:48, Sue Gardner wrote: The staff working on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki have jobs they've got to get done, in support of the entire movement. If they spend days or weeks needing to persuade a single community member of the merits of something they want to do on the Foundation

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Gayle Karen Young
Hello folks, So... I caught bits of this while I was on layover between plane flights, so I've had time to have the multiple reactions that one has (nothing like an 11-hour flight to think about a situation). I've had time to feel defensive, insulted, opened, humbled, curious, thoughtful,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Alex Zariv
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Casey Brown li...@caseybrown.org wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:15 AM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, For what it's worth, this didn't get sent out to everyone. I was a bureaucrat and administrator,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Tomasz W. Kozlowski
Gayle Karen Young wrote: Hello folks, [...] Gayle So what did you want to say? I haven't been able to find any answers to any questions that have been asked by so many people in this thread. -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Theo10011
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 5:34 AM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: So what did you want to say? I haven't been able to find any answers to any questions that have been asked by so many people in this thread. Try and be a bit nicer please. Gayle is still relatively new and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Russavia
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Gayle Karen Young gyo...@wikimedia.org wrote: This definitely feels like a bit of trial by fire. True dat. Now that you have received your initiation, there's nothing left to say but WELCOME TO WIKIPEDIA :) Cheers, Russavia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Philippe Beaudette
So, I took Florence's excellent advice and went for a walk (beautiful day in SF, by the way - absolutely perfect). And I reflected on what I've seen since flipping the switch on things last Friday. Here's where I stand, and I haven't discussed this with anyone else at WMF, including Gayle. At

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Everton Zanella Alvarenga
Hi Philippe, your message just reminds me a recent message I sent here and a general feeling about sometimes the wiki community only stressing the negative aspects and mistakes we all do (contractors, staff, volunteers etc.) * Highlight the positive aspects and multicultural comparisons

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Casey Brown
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Try and be a bit nicer please. Gayle is still relatively new and this level of scrutiny might be jarring for someone. Comments like these have always bothered me. Gayle isn't some random secretary or new run-of-the-mill

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Casey Brown, 13/05/2013 07:05: [...] [Note that I'm speaking generally -- I personally think Gayle can handle criticism and she seems very nice. She also probably had no idea this would create dramz. My comment is directed towards the general omg think of the staff member! response to criticism

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread James Alexander
* I'm just going to top post here because responding to you in line won't be helpful to anybody.The staff ARE held to a higher standard, they are held to a higher standard day in and day out. If you don't think they are then you're blind. They get attacked at a level that is NOTHING compared to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-12 Thread phoebe ayers
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote: Casey Brown, 13/05/2013 07:05: [...] [Note that I'm speaking generally -- I personally think Gayle can handle criticism and she seems very nice. She also probably had no idea this would create dramz. My comment

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Huib Laurens
The same happend to the Wikimedia Blog. Most of the moderators where volunteers (and the only real active ones also). My moderator rights where removed and I have to go after that myself, I didn't got a message or anything. While I was list administrator for wikitech-l I got the mail also that I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Craig Franklin
This sort of tone might be appropriate coming from HR in a bank or something, but I'm tremendously disappointed that something so tactless and rude was sent out from a senior officer in the Foundation to its volunteers. I know Gayle is a new hire, so I'm assuming good faith that she wasn't aware

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Russavia
Having an HR IR background myself, I am most surprised that the person for managing TALENT and CULTURE would take such a move without even so much as consulting with the community who keep the WMF's presence on the internet working, nor without giving them an actual reason as to why this has

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Russavia
Apologies, I mean Gayle, not Karen. Russavia On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote: Having an HR IR background myself, I am most surprised that the person for managing TALENT and CULTURE would take such a move without even so much as consulting with the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Deryck Chan
Given the foundation's recent tsunami of centralisation I'm not surprised by this at all. The message is clear - the community doesn't belong here. Go back to meta. I'll be interested to see how long the WMF wiki will last before they hit their first massive technical problem happens and they

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Itzik Edri
Can we please give time to the Foundation to response and express their side before everyone starts to attack them? I think we had enough of that on Internal-l. After the first response, or at least 24h, I will understand everyone feelings about that. (And right now I'm also don't agree or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread MZMcBride
Deryck Chan wrote: Given the foundation's recent tsunami of centralisation I'm not surprised by this at all. The message is clear - the community doesn't belong here. Go back to meta. Yeah, I think you're right. It seems to be part of a larger pattern. * Blog access has been restricted (as

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread MZMcBride
Itzik Edri wrote: Can we please give time to the Foundation to response and express their side before everyone starts to attack them? I think we had enough of that on Internal-l. After the first response, or at least 24h, I will understand everyone feelings about that. (And right now I'm also

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Leslie Carr
Sent from my mobile. Please excuse the brevity and typos. On May 11, 2013 4:36 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Deryck Chan wrote: Given the foundation's recent tsunami of centralisation I'm not surprised by this at all. The message is clear - the community doesn't belong here. Go back

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
K. Peachey, 11/05/2013 16:59: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Leslie Carr lc...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... As someone tasked with protecting the servers,ssh keys should be restricted as much as possible, both with staff and volunteers. that is technical and not political. That same argument

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread MZMcBride
Leslie Carr wrote: * Shell access has been restricted to staff only (no more volunteer sysadmins). Someone better tell that to domas and his ssh key. As someone tasked with protecting the servers, ssh keys should be restricted as much as possible, both with staff and volunteers. that is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Leslie Carr
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 4:59 PM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Leslie Carr lc...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... As someone tasked with protecting the servers,ssh keys should be restricted as much as possible, both with staff and volunteers. that is technical

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Leslie Carr
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:04 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Leslie Carr wrote: * Shell access has been restricted to staff only (no more volunteer sysadmins). Someone better tell that to domas and his ssh key. As someone tasked with protecting the servers, ssh keys should be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Andy Mabbett
On 11 May 2013 14:46, Deryck Chan deryckc...@wikimedia.hk wrote: Given the foundation's recent tsunami of centralisation I'm not surprised by this at all. Sad to say, this chimes with the Foundation's recent decision to consult on changes to en.Wikipedia's method of notifying users that they

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Andy Mabbett
On 11 May 2013 15:36, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Yeah, I think you're right. It seems to be part of a larger pattern. + Withdrawal of the ability to use WMF logos/ wordmarks in community projects, such as QRpedia. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 05/11/2013 06:26 AM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski wrote: Let me repeat that: the WMF does not wish volunteers to help out with running their wiki, even if they have been helping out almost since the very start of the wiki. Tomasz, while it seems clear that communications about that move seem to have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Tomasz W. Kozlowski
Marc A. Pelletier wrote: Tomasz, while it seems clear that communications about that move seem to have been lacking, I think it's unwarranted to ascribe ill-intent to the WMF staff. Perhaps you should wait for a response from them before you declare what their wishes may be or what their

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Theo10011
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: [Yes, I do understand there is a considerable time difference, etc; I'll be patiently waiting for a response from the WMF.] Might even have to wait till Monday. This was done on a Friday night I think. There

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Seb35
Le Sat, 11 May 2013 17:50:18 +0200, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org a écrit: Perhaps you should wait for a response from them before you declare what their wishes may be or what their reasons were? At the same time, it’s a very bad timing of doing such a controversial action just before

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Sue Gardner
Gayle is travelling today and not online, so I'll take a crack at responding to this. The editors are responsible for the projects: the Wikimedia Foundation knows that, acknowledges it, and is deeply appreciative (as are all readers) for the work that volunteers do in the projects. The Wikimedia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread MZMcBride
Sue Gardner wrote: So. People can disagree with this decision, and that's okay. But ultimately, the Wikimedia Foundation is responsible for the Wikimedia Foundation wiki: it's our job to figure out how best to manage and Maintain it. That's what we're doing here. wikimediafoundation.org has

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 05/11/2013 12:41 PM, Seb35 wrote: At the same time, it’s a very bad timing of doing such a controversial action just before weekend, and let people wondering during two days the reasons behind this action. So waiting still 2 days.. Yes, IMO that was a faux-pas. This should have been

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Tomasz W. Kozlowski
I'm not going to respond to all the points raised in your e-mail, Sue (partially because most of them are just too general), so let me just mentioned some of them. The editors are responsible for the projects: the Wikimedia Foundation knows that, acknowledges it, and is deeply appreciative

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Nathan
Argh, why do we have to keep going through this over and over again? I'm sure we're long past the point where Sue and many members of the staff are convinced that they will be attacked by someone in reaction to any decision they could make. Maybe that's true, but its no excuse for transforming

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Seb35
Thanks a lot for this explanation. On the other side, wikis not only need content producers (here WMF) but also curators (wikignomes) who are sorting the pages, deleting and moving pages, typocorrecting, templating things, helping new users in formatting texts, etc. (I read some of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Erik Moeller
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:48 AM, Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org wrote: My understanding is that administrator rights have been removed from a small number of volunteers, but that those people still have basic editing rights. Far more than basic, actually. The WMF wiki is unusual in that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Katherine Casey
Having read through this entire thread, I have to ask: would there have been any value in, instead of desysopping non-staff (because there appears to be a possibly-valid argument that non-staff did most of the administrative work on the wmf wiki), instead making it clear that unlike on all other

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread phoebe ayers
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: These are questions directed at the WMF—for you regular folks, I have a riddle (I'll give a WikiLove barnstar to the first person to submit a correct answer). There is /at least/ one community member who does

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Jacob Orlowitz
I just want to highlight Nathan's excellent and reasonable point: The WMF could work on: manag[ing] the implementation of a change that affects dedicated volunteers. An advanced notice, an explanation, a thank you, an expression of hope that volunteers will continue to help. That's all it would

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Casey Brown
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:15 AM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, For what it's worth, this didn't get sent out to everyone. I was a bureaucrat and administrator, and have the most edits on that wiki (afaik?), and wasn't notified. Like Huib,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread K. Peachey
(Inline comments most likely, So shoot me) On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org wrote: … But, my understanding is also that occasionally volunteers have overridden decisions made by staff on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki. I don't think that's ever been a huge

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Mono
There's been a long-term conflict with volunteers staff on wikimediafoundation.org. As a user, I understand. Each staff member likes to keep everything their way. They frequently revert changes (take a look at the discussion and user talk pages, especially for MZMcBride) on 'staff authority'.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Nathan
If the conflict was primarily with MZMcBride (which seems to be the case), then it was a bit cowardly to overhaul the entire scheme on the site in order to avoid telling him to knock it off. On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Mono monom...@gmail.com wrote: There's been a long-term conflict with

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread MZMcBride
Casey Brown wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:15 AM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, For what it's worth, this didn't get sent out to everyone. I was a bureaucrat and administrator, and have the most edits on that wiki (afaik?), and wasn't

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread MZMcBride
Nathan wrote: If the conflict was primarily with MZMcBride (which seems to be the case), then it was a bit cowardly to overhaul the entire scheme on the site in order to avoid telling him to knock it off. What'd I do? MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Mono
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:07 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Mono monom...@gmail.com wrote: There's been a long-term conflict with volunteers staff on wikimediafoundation.org. As a user, I understand. Each staff member likes to keep everything

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

2013-05-11 Thread Thomas Goldammer
Wow, this was definitely a huge brick they dropped there... It seems, the WMF needs to hire someone (a diplomat) to counsel them about actions towards the volunteers. (Seriously!) Well, and when we are at it, the volunteer community might need a diplomat, too, one who counsels them about actions

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