Re: [Wikimedia-l] Marketing jobs at the Wikimedia Foundation

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Heather, I posed only three questions. It is possible to easily make
inroads on all three subjects if they are important to us. I have said
repeatedly that we can achieve a much higher number of readers of finished
Wikisource content (exponentially) when we market what we have. The first
steps are under way to bring data to Commons. When the re-usage of Commons
is a WMF priority it has implications for the implementation strategy.

When I read the draft of the communications plan, it is abstract. Not
actionable. When Marketing is real, it is more than communication. It has
key performance indicators associated with specific projects.

   - Magnus has a framework for micro contributions. Do some small
   marketing and see if an interest can be generated. For instance find a
   topic for an existing game relevant to a small Wikipedia and target it for
   that language. (get some actual data)
   - We had lists of Wikimania presentations. Make them available widely.
   As these lists expand see if more people watch Wikimania presentations and
   make damn sure that the quality of the presentations is "good enough". Many
   London presentations are not good enough.
   - Wikipedians prevent the use of Wikidata data in info boxes in places
   because "there are no references". It is a bullshit argument as it says so
   little about quality but when you make a big spiel about this DBpedia data
   (that is what marketing does) and see what can be done to adopt this data
   expediently. It will not make the nay sayers go away but it destroys their
   argument. It is also a KPI for Wikidata.
   - We have data in Wikidata about Wikisource. Consider using it for the
   finished books and projects and have people actually READ them. Just a
   small link to Wikisource to indicate that there is more that is worked on.
   Learn from the Malayalam project (outside of WMF) that actually does it and
   make Malayalam Wikisource more relevant. This is a genuine marketing /
   sales job.
   - With Rosie I am working towards getting more women recognised because
   they are on a "Woman's hall of fame". Software by Magnus is used to compile
   and update these lists. There are several technical issues the most
   important one is that we have no proper way of dealing with red links in
   Wikipedia. The way the women in red pioneered this issue can be repeated
   for any issue or topic. A proper solution for red links will bring a
   quality improvement to Wikipedia and it can be implemented without changing
   all the set ways of the "golden oldies". It makes activism for for instance
   gender issues more effective and it allows for more focus for a drive for
   articles on speciality subjects.
   - Finally a warning. On Wikidata medical information on "FDA approved
   substances" are added without any consideration of the effectiveness of
   such substances. For many Cochrane makes comparisons with placebos and the
   conclusion is that existing sources do not prove it is better than a
   placebo and warn for side effects.  Such indiscriminate inclusion of data
   is generally approved. There is no consideration of the effect it has on
   the quality of Wikidata and its NPOV. In my perspective people that import
   such data have an interest/involvement in such data.  It is for you
   guys of marketing to have a proper answer when questions are raised 

All these points can be implemented without too many technical issues. My
question, is communication just that or can we really talk?

Thanks,

 GerardM

On 2 September 2016 at 03:03, Heather Walls  wrote:

> Hi Gerard and all,
>
> This is a great topic, and one we think about often as the Communications
> team. In the past 2 years in fact, the Communications team has
> intentionally grown to better support Wikimedia project awareness
> and usage, including through new hires and approaches.
>
> We generally use words like audience development, outreach, and awareness
> rather than "marketing," but it's a similar (and some may argue the same)
> idea. Of course, we're not a traditional organization or movement, so we
> need to adapt based on the fact that we're not "selling" anything. Instead,
> we're driven by our mission and commitment to Wikimedia values and
> communities. In short, the objective is to systematically grow audiences
> for Wikimedia in a mission-aligned way, using research, media (digital or
> otherwise), campaigns, and messaging.
>
> We've hired people with specific experience in marketing and
> communications, including in audience growth, social media, branding, and
> awareness. You can learn more about our team here: https://meta.wikimedia.
> org/wiki/Communications. For more on our team's work, see this year's
> Annual Plan: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_
> Annual_Plan/2016-2017/revised#Communications. This area of [insert
> industry
> term of your choice here] is relatively new for the Foundation and we 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Marketing jobs at the Wikimedia Foundation

[Heather Walls]

Hi Gerard and all,

This is a great topic, and one we think about often as the Communications
team. In the past 2 years in fact, the Communications team has
intentionally grown to better support Wikimedia project awareness
and usage, including through new hires and approaches.

We generally use words like audience development, outreach, and awareness
rather than "marketing," but it's a similar (and some may argue the same)
idea. Of course, we're not a traditional organization or movement, so we
need to adapt based on the fact that we're not "selling" anything. Instead,
we're driven by our mission and commitment to Wikimedia values and
communities. In short, the objective is to systematically grow audiences
for Wikimedia in a mission-aligned way, using research, media (digital or
otherwise), campaigns, and messaging.

We've hired people with specific experience in marketing and
communications, including in audience growth, social media, branding, and
awareness. You can learn more about our team here: https://meta.wikimedia.
org/wiki/Communications. For more on our team's work, see this year's
Annual Plan: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_
Annual_Plan/2016-2017/revised#Communications. This area of [insert industry
term of your choice here] is relatively new for the Foundation and we still
have plenty of room to grow. But we're optimistic that in collaboration
with the community we can help grow future Wikimedia audiences.

Finally, we're interested in continuing to partner with community members
and affiliates. We often collaborate with affiliates on campaigns (for
example, around Wikipedia 15 ), conduct
trainings at events, and have recently further developed the Communications
resource center: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/
Communications/Resource_center

In short, we are completely with you, and if you have ideas and questions
about raising project awareness and usage, we'd love to talk.

Yours,
*The Wikimedia Foundation Communications Department*



On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 5:32 AM, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> I have followed what the WMF does for years and if proper marketing was
> done, it would be known what the effect is of the information you refer to
> and there would be an idea on how and why this information is available and
> what we can achieve with it. Consider, when I write 10 new articles, what
> articles are read often and why. Are specific topics more read than others?
> What effect is there when we write even more on a topic? Are there tipping
> points where the coverage of a subject starts to get more readers and
> editors?
>
> Marketing is not only about having data, there is plenty of that. It is
> about what you do with it. Without a plan, a purpose accumulating data is
> an academic excercise; it is its own goal and it brings us little that is
> actionable. Marketing begins when you define what you aim to achieve and
> ask yourself questions like
>
>- What can I do to share the presentations given at Wikimania (or any
>other WMF conference) ?
>   - or how do we get more mileage out of Wikimania
>   - What can we do to identify the women that are notable and do not
>have an article in a Wikipedia?
>- can we write articles that will actually be read about women?
>   - What can we do to bring more references to Wikidata from Wikipedia?
>   - our friends at DBpedia sit on a ton of quality data, how do we
>   incorporate it as Wikipedians do not trust Wikidata without
> references?
>
> For these three questions there are actionable ways of providing a better
> solution, the question is do we care to bring us to the next level. Do we
> dare?
>
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 1 September 2016 at 14:08, Nikola Kalchev 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > when you write "we do not inform them how many reads were done for new
> > articles" you don't include all wikis, I hope. In the history section of
> > the articles on Bulgarian Wikipedia [0] there is a link to a pageviews
> > analysis [1] where everyone can see how often the article was read in the
> > last up to 90 days.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Nikola / User:Lord Bumbury
> >
> > [0]
> > https://bg.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9B%D0%B5%
> > D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%
> > B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B8_2016=history,
> > look for the word "посещенията".
> > [1]
> > https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=bg.
> > wikipedia.org=all-access=user=
> > latest-20=%D0%9B%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%BE%D0%
> > BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B8%
> > D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B8_2016
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Yes. It is indeed another area where we could do a lot better. We do
> not
> > > show how effective the work is that people do. We do not inform 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Marketing jobs at the Wikimedia Foundation

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
I have followed what the WMF does for years and if proper marketing was
done, it would be known what the effect is of the information you refer to
and there would be an idea on how and why this information is available and
what we can achieve with it. Consider, when I write 10 new articles, what
articles are read often and why. Are specific topics more read than others?
What effect is there when we write even more on a topic? Are there tipping
points where the coverage of a subject starts to get more readers and
editors?

Marketing is not only about having data, there is plenty of that. It is
about what you do with it. Without a plan, a purpose accumulating data is
an academic excercise; it is its own goal and it brings us little that is
actionable. Marketing begins when you define what you aim to achieve and
ask yourself questions like

   - What can I do to share the presentations given at Wikimania (or any
   other WMF conference) ?
  - or how do we get more mileage out of Wikimania
  - What can we do to identify the women that are notable and do not
   have an article in a Wikipedia?
   - can we write articles that will actually be read about women?
  - What can we do to bring more references to Wikidata from Wikipedia?
  - our friends at DBpedia sit on a ton of quality data, how do we
  incorporate it as Wikipedians do not trust Wikidata without references?

For these three questions there are actionable ways of providing a better
solution, the question is do we care to bring us to the next level. Do we
dare?

Thanks,
  GerardM

On 1 September 2016 at 14:08, Nikola Kalchev 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> when you write "we do not inform them how many reads were done for new
> articles" you don't include all wikis, I hope. In the history section of
> the articles on Bulgarian Wikipedia [0] there is a link to a pageviews
> analysis [1] where everyone can see how often the article was read in the
> last up to 90 days.
>
> Best regards,
> Nikola / User:Lord Bumbury
>
> [0]
> https://bg.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9B%D0%B5%
> D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%
> B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B8_2016=history,
> look for the word "посещенията".
> [1]
> https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=bg.
> wikipedia.org=all-access=user=
> latest-20=%D0%9B%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%BE%D0%
> BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B8%
> D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B8_2016
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Yes. It is indeed another area where we could do a lot better. We do not
> > show how effective the work is that people do. We do not inform them how
> > many reads were done for new articles. All things that are really easy to
> > do when we think of it. But we do not.
> >
> > So yes we need marketing to get new people and we need marketing to keep
> > the people that appear. That is also something that is of what marketing
> > people do; how to get and keep a market.
> > Thanks,
> >  GerardM
> >
> > On 28 August 2016 at 17:19, David Goodman  wrote:
> >
> > > Marketing can  get someone to buy a product once; the problem is to get
> > > them to buy another, and that depends on the quality of the product. It
> > is
> > > much easier to get new first time editors than to give them the
> > > encouragement and satisfaction to keep them going.
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 5:38 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > At the research mailing list two relevant activities were mentioned
> > that
> > > do
> > > > not adequately take place.
> > > >
> > > > * *Gamified interfaces for microcontributions à la Wikidata game*
> > > > ** **Ubiquitous outreach, supported by dedicated technology*
> > > >
> > > > The notion exists that it is possible to do all kind of technological
> > > > things to make things stand out more but the big problem is imho not
> > > > technological. It is not content, it is the awareness that marketing
> is
> > > > more than selling things.
> > > >
> > > > A respected Wikimedian made the bold statement that "Wikipedia could
> > > > absolutely have 100x the number of editors it has now".I would argue
> > that
> > > > this is correct
> > > >
> > > > My question is not could marketing methods make a difference but what
> > > > objectives do we have that will benefit from a marketing approach.
> What
> > > > does it take to be more pro-active towards our objectives?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >GerardM
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Marketing jobs at the Wikimedia Foundation

[Nikola Kalchev]

Hi,

when you write "we do not inform them how many reads were done for new
articles" you don't include all wikis, I hope. In the history section of
the articles on Bulgarian Wikipedia [0] there is a link to a pageviews
analysis [1] where everyone can see how often the article was read in the
last up to 90 days.

Best regards,
Nikola / User:Lord Bumbury

[0]
https://bg.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9B%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B8_2016=history,
look for the word "посещенията".
[1]
https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=bg.wikipedia.org=all-access=user=latest-20=%D0%9B%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B8_2016

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Yes. It is indeed another area where we could do a lot better. We do not
> show how effective the work is that people do. We do not inform them how
> many reads were done for new articles. All things that are really easy to
> do when we think of it. But we do not.
>
> So yes we need marketing to get new people and we need marketing to keep
> the people that appear. That is also something that is of what marketing
> people do; how to get and keep a market.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 28 August 2016 at 17:19, David Goodman  wrote:
>
> > Marketing can  get someone to buy a product once; the problem is to get
> > them to buy another, and that depends on the quality of the product. It
> is
> > much easier to get new first time editors than to give them the
> > encouragement and satisfaction to keep them going.
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 5:38 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > At the research mailing list two relevant activities were mentioned
> that
> > do
> > > not adequately take place.
> > >
> > > * *Gamified interfaces for microcontributions à la Wikidata game*
> > > ** **Ubiquitous outreach, supported by dedicated technology*
> > >
> > > The notion exists that it is possible to do all kind of technological
> > > things to make things stand out more but the big problem is imho not
> > > technological. It is not content, it is the awareness that marketing is
> > > more than selling things.
> > >
> > > A respected Wikimedian made the bold statement that "Wikipedia could
> > > absolutely have 100x the number of editors it has now".I would argue
> that
> > > this is correct
> > >
> > > My question is not could marketing methods make a difference but what
> > > objectives do we have that will benefit from a marketing approach. What
> > > does it take to be more pro-active towards our objectives?
> > > Thanks,
> > >GerardM
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David Goodman
> >
> > DGG at the enWP
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Marketing jobs at the Wikimedia Foundation

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Yes. It is indeed another area where we could do a lot better. We do not
show how effective the work is that people do. We do not inform them how
many reads were done for new articles. All things that are really easy to
do when we think of it. But we do not.

So yes we need marketing to get new people and we need marketing to keep
the people that appear. That is also something that is of what marketing
people do; how to get and keep a market.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 28 August 2016 at 17:19, David Goodman  wrote:

> Marketing can  get someone to buy a product once; the problem is to get
> them to buy another, and that depends on the quality of the product. It is
> much easier to get new first time editors than to give them the
> encouragement and satisfaction to keep them going.
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 5:38 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > At the research mailing list two relevant activities were mentioned that
> do
> > not adequately take place.
> >
> > * *Gamified interfaces for microcontributions à la Wikidata game*
> > ** **Ubiquitous outreach, supported by dedicated technology*
> >
> > The notion exists that it is possible to do all kind of technological
> > things to make things stand out more but the big problem is imho not
> > technological. It is not content, it is the awareness that marketing is
> > more than selling things.
> >
> > A respected Wikimedian made the bold statement that "Wikipedia could
> > absolutely have 100x the number of editors it has now".I would argue that
> > this is correct
> >
> > My question is not could marketing methods make a difference but what
> > objectives do we have that will benefit from a marketing approach. What
> > does it take to be more pro-active towards our objectives?
> > Thanks,
> >GerardM
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Goodman
>
> DGG at the enWP
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Marketing jobs at the Wikimedia Foundation

[David Goodman]

Marketing can  get someone to buy a product once; the problem is to get
them to buy another, and that depends on the quality of the product. It is
much easier to get new first time editors than to give them the
encouragement and satisfaction to keep them going.

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 5:38 AM, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> At the research mailing list two relevant activities were mentioned that do
> not adequately take place.
>
> * *Gamified interfaces for microcontributions à la Wikidata game*
> ** **Ubiquitous outreach, supported by dedicated technology*
>
> The notion exists that it is possible to do all kind of technological
> things to make things stand out more but the big problem is imho not
> technological. It is not content, it is the awareness that marketing is
> more than selling things.
>
> A respected Wikimedian made the bold statement that "Wikipedia could
> absolutely have 100x the number of editors it has now".I would argue that
> this is correct
>
> My question is not could marketing methods make a difference but what
> objectives do we have that will benefit from a marketing approach. What
> does it take to be more pro-active towards our objectives?
> Thanks,
>GerardM
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 




-- 
David Goodman

DGG at the enWP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
___
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