Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-02-09 Thread Peter Southwood
This seems a reasonably prudent path. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: Monday, February 10, 2020 6:14 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-02-09 Thread Pine W
I've been reading sections of the strategy document with a couple of thoughts in mind. * The relatively decentralized nature of the community makes negotiations challenging, both within the community and between the community and WMF. * Clashes between the community and WMF are usually lose-lose

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-02-04 Thread Peter Southwood
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Aron Manning Sent: 04 February 2020 13:56 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 at 08:57, Chris Keating wrote

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-02-04 Thread Chris Keating
Hi Aron, > > I see this as a fundamental issue, that's strongly related to why so much > harassment (and lesser forms of incivility) are part of our everyday > editing experience (I'm talking about less-known members of the community, > who aren't protected by their established status, not us).

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-02-04 Thread Aron Manning
On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 at 08:57, Chris Keating wrote: > In part this is because people were very angry about the issue at the time, > and that anger was dealt with very poorly at the time. > While MediaViewer's introduction wasn't prepared appropriately and superprotect was an inconsiderate, rushed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-02-04 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Hello, I strongly agree with what Chris wrote. In the Strategy discussions, I have experienced and witnessed several times that defenders of the "strategy synthesis/recommendations" do not want to talk about an issue. They say things like: * "this feels like défa vu" * "you are not constructive" *

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-02-03 Thread Chris Keating
> > Superprotect is now over five years old. Superprotect's removal is now over > four years old. It was a mistake, and it was explicitly acknowledged as > such: the then-ED of the WMF said it had "set up a precedent of > mistrust". Almost all of the people involved in it are no longer affiliated

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-02-03 Thread Pine W
Hi Dan, I think that there are a couple of lines of thought here. I think that we should make a distinction between individuals and the institution of WMF. For the former, I think that you make a good point. Along the same lines, there were probably people who worked at WMF at the time and had

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-02-03 Thread Dan Garry (Deskana)
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 at 23:49, Pine W wrote: > Here are a couple of arguments from WMF in favor of SuperProtect, which was > implemented to prevent local users from removing MediaViewer. Superprotect is now over five years old. Superprotect's removal is now over four years old. It was a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-02-03 Thread Aron Manning
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 at 00:49, Pine W wrote: > Here are a couple of arguments from WMF in favor of SuperProtect, which was > implemented to prevent local users from removing MediaViewer. > It's interesting that this topic came up, as there was a bug in MediaViewer that disturbed me so much I've

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-25 Thread Pine W
Hi Aron, I should be careful not to paint everyone with the same brush. I have great respect for WMF's mission. It would be difficult to have adequate legal support and technical infrastructure for Wikimedia projects without one or more organizations providing formal and ongoing support. WMF as

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-25 Thread David Goodman
Leila, the decrease in interest that you mention is typical of processes in which the continued discussion leads to recommendation which are only recommendations. If I were of the opinion that what I said here would only at most be used as input to the person actually making the decision, I would

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-22 Thread Aron Manning
Hello Pine, On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 08:06, Pine W wrote: > Hi Aron, > > Some of your comments remind me of arguments that I heard from WMF around > the time that the WMF Board decided to let Lila have her way with > Superprotect. WMF's solution to various question about who should make >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-21 Thread Pine W
Hi Aron, Some of your comments remind me of arguments that I heard from WMF around the time that the WMF Board decided to let Lila have her way with Superprotect. WMF's solution to various question about who should make decisions and whether diverse needs were being adequately addressed was to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-20 Thread Aron Manning
The following views are mine. I'm not affiliated with either the Foundation or those speaking in the name of the communities. This is a volunteer's opinion. On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 04:24, Pine W wrote: > Hi Leila and Todd, thanks for the constructive comments. > > I think that global consensus

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-20 Thread Pine W
Hi Leila and Todd, thanks for the constructive comments. I think that global consensus is possible, but it's challenging. I remain concerned about the current timeline for this strategy process. I think that after initial community discussions, a phased approach over a period of years for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-20 Thread Todd Allen
That's...really not how this works. We don't say "It's hard to gain consensus, so screw it, we're going ahead anyway." If you can't gain consensus for what you're doing, then you should stop doing it. Yes, consensus for major changes is hard. That doesn't mean it is not required or should be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-18 Thread Leila Zia
[writing at my personal capacity.] Hi Pine, On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 8:20 PM Pine W wrote: > > * I realize that a lot of time and money has been spent in the strategy > process to this point. I hope that there will be consensus on at least some > of the recommendations. True consensus based

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-17 Thread Pine W
Hi Nicole and Kaarel, Thank you for sharing your comments. A few points: * I realize that a lot of time and money has been spent in the strategy process to this point. I hope that there will be consensus on at least some of the recommendations. * Hopefully the discussions in the next few weeks

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-16 Thread Nicole Ebber
Hi Lodewijk, Thanks for your questions and feedback. I would like to respond to some of it already, but need a bit more time to answer the other parts. * We have learned a lot from the experience of the last round of community conversations and are indeed aiming for a more active, responsive

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-15 Thread effe iets anders
Just to emphasize my point: I have searched, and was still unable to find any serious consideration or response for some of the feedback that was provided all the way back in August. In the next iteration, these examples seem to have been ignored. It may well be that this is a particularly sad

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-14 Thread Kaarel Vaidla
Hi everyone, Thank you for your feedback regarding the community conversations process and your care for doing it in the right way! It is truly appreciated. I am happy to share a couple of points from the design perspective: - The movement strategy recommendations are, as some of you have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-14 Thread Pine W
Hi Anders, I think that the original hope was that there would be community consensus around the recommendations from the strategy process. However, what I have heard so far leads me to think that the reception to the recommendations has been mixed. Neither the WMF Board nor the community are

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-14 Thread effe iets anders
Hi Nicole, Last round (or was it the round before that?) there were some disappointed community members because their feedback did not really spark any conversation/exchange in a timely manner. I don't want to go back to focus on things that coulda woulda shoulda been better though. However, I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-14 Thread Anders Wennersten
The people who has written the forthcoming recommendations, have been engaged for around two years, and they have spend manmonths of dedicated work. It is not realistic to believe that an outsider (as we others now are) can substantially change any of the recommendations. We can though give

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-14 Thread Paul J. Weiss
I share the time concerns that Pine and Todd addressed. But my larger concern is about the purpose of this next community conversation. You say that the core team will summarize the community input, and then the community will have a week to "suggest changes to the posted summary so that it

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-14 Thread Alice Wiegand
I understand that the community conversation is planned to be conducted for around the next 6 weeks, it’s the discussion of the summary of that, which is planned for one week. Alice. > Am 14.01.2020 um 08:47 schrieb Todd Allen : > > Surely longer than a week can > be allowed for discussion of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-13 Thread Todd Allen
I would tend to agree. This process has been ongoing for many months now, and the community raised substantial concerns about the initial proposals. Whether deliberate or not, allowing only a week for discussion of the final product seems an attempt to ram it through. Surely longer than a week can

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Recommendations and community conversations launching next week

2020-01-13 Thread Pine W
Hi Nicole, After reading this email, and taking into consideration a discussion that happened during the January online meeting of United States Wikimedians, I feel that the timeline here is aggressive and likely to result in problems. In particular, giving the core team one week to review