Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-12 Thread MZMcBride
Anthony wrote:
And I thought Ryan Lane was talking about the future, not the past.  I
certainly was.

I think we should focus on the present, personally.

If a user goes to https://wikipedia.org, they're quietly redirected to
http://www.wikipedia.org. This is true of a large number of domains
(e.g., https://wikimedia.org and https://mediawiki.org).

This has been known about since at least October 2011 (cf.
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/31369) and everyone seems to agree that
it's a pretty evil bug (a user knowingly tries to access a site over HTTPS
and is unknowingly routed to HTTP). And yet it's August 2013 and the best
response we seem to have come up with is install a client-side browser
plugin and we're working on it.

It's difficult to believe that the Wikimedia Foundation is committed to
user privacy when bugs like this go unresolved after so many months. This
bug will celebrate its second birthday in less than two months.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-01 Thread Peter Southwood

No, but presenting an appearance of surprise is a bit disingenuous.
P
- Original Message - 
From: David Gerard dger...@gmail.com

To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA



On 31 July 2013 21:47, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote:

Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people 
are

looking up is powerful knowledge.



That doesn't make it one dot less reprehensible.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-01 Thread Peter Southwood
And non-western countries probably go further if their technological 
capacity allows it. If you are not being spied on by somebody it is 
because no-one could be bothered or they havent got around to it yet, not 
because any law protects your privacy.

P
- Original Message - 
From: Nathan nawr...@gmail.com

To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Matthew Walker mwal...@wikimedia.org 
wrote:


What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this 
information.



It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third
party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's 
no

point in getting angry. Now that we have reasonable doubt, I hesitate to
call it proof, we can start making tremendous amounts of noise.

~Matt Walker


I think that's just naive. Of course it was always denied until it
became impossible to deny it. That's how these things work. But I have
honestly assumed for many years that virtually everything transmitted
over almost any electronic medium was collected and analyzed in some
way. That appears to be the case, and in fact, I expected them to have
gone further than they have. It seems that most of the data they
collect is wiped within 3 days; that the data itself can only be
analyzed under a fairly specific set of minimization rules after the
approval of a senior executive in the administration, that the rules
are drawn from generally accepted 4th amendment jurisprudence, etc.

The cynic in me is also convinced that virtually all Western countries
do the same sort of thing, if probably on a smaller scale. I would bet
all the money I have that at a minimum the French, the English and the
Germans maintain roughly similar intelligence gathering programs. But
of course, they will deny it until it becomes impossible to deny it.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-01 Thread Peter Southwood
Does the law actually require them to lie about data demands when 
questioned?

P
- Original Message - 
From: Nathan nawr...@gmail.com

To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com 
wrote:

On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote:


And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies
represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most
of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of
raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so
without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose
the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made.

Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.


Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from
most to all in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the
similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind of
rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's how 
they

get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions.

--Michael Snow




It's hardly a conspiracy theory. Given the differences between mail.ru
and Wikipedia, I should think it would be clear why one might be
subject to a direct demand for transferring data while the other is
not. If anything, I think it's more reasonable to assume that
Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter,
Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind
of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be
able to do anything other than deny it, but we can easily see why data
held by Wikipedia (including partially anonymized e-mails, file
uploads, talk page communication, etc.) would be of interest to
intelligence agencies.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-01 Thread Peter Southwood

Thanks, This answers my question.
P
- Original Message - 
From: Luis Villa lvi...@wikimedia.org

To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Michael Snow 
wikipe...@frontier.comwrote:





Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.


Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from
most to all in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the
similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind of
rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's how 
they

get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions.



Thanks for the voice of reason, Michael.

As a quick reminder here, before any conspiracy theories about orders and
data retention get out of control:

1) We've flat-out denied any sort of involvement in this, and we continue
to stand by that denial:
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/06/14/prism-surveillance-wikimedia/

2) Take with a grain of salt, of course, but our understanding (based on
the few gag orders that have been made public) is that we could be forced
to not confirm having received a National Security Letter, but we can't
actually be forced to lie about it. In other words, if we'd received one 
we

would not be allowed to say we've received one, but we also could not be
forced to deny it - we'd always have the option to remain silent instead.

3) We understand that the rules cause some people not to trust our denial,
and can't entirely blame them! That is why we've asked the government to
change the rules, so that you can have more trust in us next time we issue
the same denial:
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/07/18/wikimedia-foundation-letter-transparency-nsa-prism/

This is not to say that the http/https issue isn't important; like
Engineering, we think progress on that issue is important. But it is
important to keep we don't yet deploy https as widely as we'd like
separate from there are secret orders to transfer all our logs to the 
NSA.


Thanks-
Luis

--
Luis Villa
Deputy General Counsel
Wikimedia Foundation
415.839.6885 ext. 6810

NOTICE: *This message may be confidential or legally privileged. If you
have received it by accident, please delete it and let us know about the
mistake. As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation, for legal/ethical
reasons I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for, community
members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal capacity.*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-01 Thread rupert THURNER
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was
 the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation.


 Key word there being knowingly.

 I don't know why the NSA would sneak around in our data centres
 mirroring our ethernet ports if they already have almost all of our
 access logs by capturing unencrypted traffic as it passes through
 XKeyscore nodes.

 I think you should save the conspiracy theories until after we switch
 anons to HTTPS, that's when they will have an incentive.

tim, and ryan, that is not 100% true. since at least 2010 we know from
articles like these:
* http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/03/packet-forensics/
* 
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/03/researchers-reveal-likelihood-governments-fake-ssl
that man-in-the middle attacks are possible with and without HTTPS at
XKeyscore nodes. the basic problem is, that wikipedia contents is
stored in the U.S., and the site is using certificates issued in the
U.S. the same country and legislation the NSA is located. this means
the certificates can be compromised and users would not (easily)
notice it.

the best sign against snooping internet traffic would be if wikipedia
will change the hosting to a different country, and use a different
countries ssl certificate. you can bet, that the perceived impact on
the U.S. business will be so huge that this intolerable practice will
stop, at source, at NSA.

btw, ryan, you talked about firing and jailing - if you did not know
that or if you knew it and ignored it, you should be fired or not work
at WMF ;) it is _you_ who need to warn about the location beeing
vulnerable, and it is _you_ who decide to use vulnerable digicert
certificates. but you of course will not be jailed - this seems to
happen to people revealing that xkeyscore exists ...

rupert.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-01 Thread Robert Rohde
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Luis Villa lvi...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 As a quick reminder here, before any conspiracy theories about orders and
 data retention get out of control:

 1) We've flat-out denied any sort of involvement in this, and we continue
 to stand by that denial:
 https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/06/14/prism-surveillance-wikimedia/

 2) Take with a grain of salt, of course, but our understanding (based on
 the few gag orders that have been made public) is that we could be forced
 to not confirm having received a National Security Letter, but we can't
 actually be forced to lie about it. In other words, if we'd received one we
 would not be allowed to say we've received one, but we also could not be
 forced to deny it - we'd always have the option to remain silent instead.
snip

If we are going to chase crazy down the rabbit hole, then it may be
worth noticing that the NSL gag order makes it a crime to discuss NSL
demands with anyone except A) personal legal counsel, and B) persons
who are directly necessary to fulfill the demand.  In particular, if I
(as an individual) am served with an NSL then there is no provision
allowing me to tell my boss or my subordinates unless I directly need
their help to satisfy the request.  If someone with root access were
directly served with an NSL, it isn't obvious that WMF executives
would ever learn about it.  This is one of the ways that NSL gag
orders are ridiculous.

-Robert Rohde

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-01 Thread George Herbert
The letters must be sent to the organization rather than an individual.  The 
idea of going to an individual employee and strongarming them may happen, but 
the law around NSLs is specific.

The court cases to date indicate that if an individual employee got a US NSL 
and sued over it, the judge would likely take actions that would end the FBI 
agents careers.

Such individual strongarming would almost certainly use threats or MICE (money, 
ideology, compromise, ego) enticements and no paper trail to have to testify 
over in court later.


George William Herbert
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 1, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Robert Rohde raro...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Luis Villa lvi...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 As a quick reminder here, before any conspiracy theories about orders and
 data retention get out of control:
 
 1) We've flat-out denied any sort of involvement in this, and we continue
 to stand by that denial:
 https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/06/14/prism-surveillance-wikimedia/
 
 2) Take with a grain of salt, of course, but our understanding (based on
 the few gag orders that have been made public) is that we could be forced
 to not confirm having received a National Security Letter, but we can't
 actually be forced to lie about it. In other words, if we'd received one we
 would not be allowed to say we've received one, but we also could not be
 forced to deny it - we'd always have the option to remain silent instead.
 snip
 
 If we are going to chase crazy down the rabbit hole, then it may be
 worth noticing that the NSL gag order makes it a crime to discuss NSL
 demands with anyone except A) personal legal counsel, and B) persons
 who are directly necessary to fulfill the demand.  In particular, if I
 (as an individual) am served with an NSL then there is no provision
 allowing me to tell my boss or my subordinates unless I directly need
 their help to satisfy the request.  If someone with root access were
 directly served with an NSL, it isn't obvious that WMF executives
 would ever learn about it.  This is one of the ways that NSL gag
 orders are ridiculous.
 
 -Robert Rohde
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-01 Thread Emilio J . Rodríguez-Posada
It is funny (but also sad) to see how people thought that Internet privacy
was respected in Western world. Almost 99% only worried about China/Iran
Internet monitoring and censorship but we had here the most comprehensive
spy system logging every site you read.

Wake up!
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-01 Thread Anthony
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.orgwrote:

 On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote:
  On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 
  I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this
 was
  the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation.
 
 
  Key word there being knowingly.

 I don't know why the NSA would sneak around in our data centres
 mirroring our ethernet ports if they already have almost all of our
 access logs by capturing unencrypted traffic as it passes through
 XKeyscore nodes.


Especially not when they can get someone else to do it for them.

I think you should save the conspiracy theories until after we switch
 anons to HTTPS, that's when they will have an incentive.


And I thought Ryan Lane was talking about the future, not the past.  I
certainly was.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-08-01 Thread Ryan Lane
On Thursday, August 1, 2013, Anthony wrote:

 On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Tim Starling 
 tstarl...@wikimedia.orgjavascript:;
 wrote:

  On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote:
   On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane 
   rl...@wikimedia.orgjavascript:;
 wrote:
  
   I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this
  was
   the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation.
  
  
   Key word there being knowingly.
 
  I don't know why the NSA would sneak around in our data centres
  mirroring our ethernet ports if they already have almost all of our
  access logs by capturing unencrypted traffic as it passes through
  XKeyscore nodes.
 

 Especially not when they can get someone else to do it for them.

 I think you should save the conspiracy theories until after we switch
  anons to HTTPS, that's when they will have an incentive.
 

 And I thought Ryan Lane was talking about the future, not the past.  I
 certainly was.


I'm talking about both.

- Ryan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Fred Bauder
 See attachment.

 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

the NSA has created a multi-tiered system that allows analysts to store
interesting content in other databases, such as one named Pinwale which
can store material for up to five years. 

Fred


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Huib Laurens
How is this related to the foundation?


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 See attachment.


 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

 Fred
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Risker
Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.

Risker


On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote:

 How is this related to the foundation?


 On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net
 wrote:

  See attachment.
 
 
 
 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
 
  Fred
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Huib Laurens
Hmmm, the word wiki isn't named anywhere.


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.

 Risker


 On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote:

  How is this related to the foundation?
 
 
  On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net
  wrote:
 
   See attachment.
  
  
  
 
 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
  
   Fred
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread James Alexander
It's from a slide they have a bit down the page with our logal about why
they are interested in http. You can search for nearly everything a
typical user does on the internet

You can also see the slide on Jimmy's tweet about said issue:
https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/status/362626509648834560

There is an ongoing thread on wikitech about https again stemming from this.

James

James Alexander
Legal and Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hmmm, the word wiki isn't named anywhere.


 On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

  Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.
 
  Risker
 
 
  On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   How is this related to the foundation?
  
  
   On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net
   wrote:
  
See attachment.
   
   
   
  
 
 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
   
Fred
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Risker
I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg

(Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)

Risker


On 31 July 2013 15:44, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hmmm, the word wiki isn't named anywhere.


 On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

  Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.
 
  Risker
 
 
  On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   How is this related to the foundation?
  
  
   On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net
   wrote:
  
See attachment.
   
   
   
  
 
 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
   
Fred
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Fred Bauder
Look at the attached image.

Fred

 Hmmm, the word wiki isn't named anywhere.


 On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.

 Risker


 On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote:

  How is this related to the foundation?
 
 
  On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net
  wrote:
 
   See attachment.
  
  
  
 
 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
  
   Fred
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread James Alexander
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:

 https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg

 (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
 discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)

 Risker


Aye, it's a short bit down the page but included around screenshots and
explanations of the tools they use to analyze traffic by keyword (and so
what led to Jimmy's understandable reaction imo)

James
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread David Gerard
On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
 https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
 (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
 discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)


Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud Fuck. Fuck these people.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread David Gerard
On 31 July 2013 21:00, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
 https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
 (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
 discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)

 Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud Fuck. Fuck these people.


How DARE they use us as their example. HOW DARE THEY.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Ryan Lane
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:00 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 31 July 2013 21:00, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
  On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

  I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
 
 https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
  (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
  discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)

  Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud Fuck. Fuck these
 people.


 How DARE they use us as their example. HOW DARE THEY.


Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are
looking up is powerful knowledge.

- Ryan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread David Gerard
On 31 July 2013 21:47, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are
 looking up is powerful knowledge.


That doesn't make it one dot less reprehensible.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Keegan Peterzell
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 
 Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are
 looking up is powerful knowledge.

 - Ryan


Indeed.  It's much more safe and sensible to just go down to your library
and check out a book.

Oh, wait.

-- 
~Keegan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Nathan
What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Matthew Walker

 What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information.


It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third
party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's no
point in getting angry. Now that we have reasonable doubt, I hesitate to
call it proof, we can start making tremendous amounts of noise.

~Matt Walker
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Nathan
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Matthew Walker mwal...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information.


 It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third
 party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's no
 point in getting angry. Now that we have reasonable doubt, I hesitate to
 call it proof, we can start making tremendous amounts of noise.

 ~Matt Walker

I think that's just naive. Of course it was always denied until it
became impossible to deny it. That's how these things work. But I have
honestly assumed for many years that virtually everything transmitted
over almost any electronic medium was collected and analyzed in some
way. That appears to be the case, and in fact, I expected them to have
gone further than they have. It seems that most of the data they
collect is wiped within 3 days; that the data itself can only be
analyzed under a fairly specific set of minimization rules after the
approval of a senior executive in the administration, that the rules
are drawn from generally accepted 4th amendment jurisprudence, etc.

The cynic in me is also convinced that virtually all Western countries
do the same sort of thing, if probably on a smaller scale. I would bet
all the money I have that at a minimum the French, the English and the
Germans maintain roughly similar intelligence gathering programs. But
of course, they will deny it until it becomes impossible to deny it.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread David Gerard
On 31 July 2013 23:01, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think that's just naive. Of course it was always denied until it
 became impossible to deny it. That's how these things work. But I have
 honestly assumed for many years that virtually everything transmitted
 over almost any electronic medium was collected and analyzed in some
 way. That appears to be the case, and in fact, I expected them to have


Well done! You're very clever.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Nathan
Thanks David. Always appreciate your wit.

That said, I wasn't claiming that anticipating being monitored was
exceptional. Quite the opposite; I said I was surprised there was
anyone who didn't already assume everything was trapped and traced.
Your reaction of Fuck. Fuck these people. suggests you were
surprised they might be keeping tabs on Wikipedia. Although I wouldn't
take the use of the Wikipedia logo as complete confirmation (it could
just be an illustration, for the audience, of how much people use http
traffic), its hard to imagine most people would be shocked to learn
Wikipedia traffic isn't exempt from a dragnet that catches literally
everything else.

~Nathan

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Nathan
And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies
represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most
of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of
raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so
without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose
the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made.

Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Michael Snow

On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote:

And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies
represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most
of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of
raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so
without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose
the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made.

Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.
Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from 
most to all in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the 
similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind 
of rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's 
how they get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions.


--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Nathan
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com wrote:
 On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote:

 And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies
 represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most
 of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of
 raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so
 without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose
 the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made.

 Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
 Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
 hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
 blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.

 Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from
 most to all in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the
 similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind of
 rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's how they
 get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions.

 --Michael Snow



It's hardly a conspiracy theory. Given the differences between mail.ru
and Wikipedia, I should think it would be clear why one might be
subject to a direct demand for transferring data while the other is
not. If anything, I think it's more reasonable to assume that
Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter,
Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind
of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be
able to do anything other than deny it, but we can easily see why data
held by Wikipedia (including partially anonymized e-mails, file
uploads, talk page communication, etc.) would be of interest to
intelligence agencies.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Luis Villa
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.comwrote:


 Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
 Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
 hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
 blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.

 Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from
 most to all in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the
 similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind of
 rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's how they
 get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions.


Thanks for the voice of reason, Michael.

As a quick reminder here, before any conspiracy theories about orders and
data retention get out of control:

1) We've flat-out denied any sort of involvement in this, and we continue
to stand by that denial:
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/06/14/prism-surveillance-wikimedia/

2) Take with a grain of salt, of course, but our understanding (based on
the few gag orders that have been made public) is that we could be forced
to not confirm having received a National Security Letter, but we can't
actually be forced to lie about it. In other words, if we'd received one we
would not be allowed to say we've received one, but we also could not be
forced to deny it - we'd always have the option to remain silent instead.

3) We understand that the rules cause some people not to trust our denial,
and can't entirely blame them! That is why we've asked the government to
change the rules, so that you can have more trust in us next time we issue
the same denial:
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/07/18/wikimedia-foundation-letter-transparency-nsa-prism/

This is not to say that the http/https issue isn't important; like
Engineering, we think progress on that issue is important. But it is
important to keep we don't yet deploy https as widely as we'd like
separate from there are secret orders to transfer all our logs to the NSA.

Thanks-
Luis

-- 
Luis Villa
Deputy General Counsel
Wikimedia Foundation
415.839.6885 ext. 6810

NOTICE: *This message may be confidential or legally privileged. If you
have received it by accident, please delete it and let us know about the
mistake. As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation, for legal/ethical
reasons I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for, community
members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal capacity.*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Fred Bauder
I think it's more reasonable to assume that
 Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter,
 Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind
 of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be
 able to do anything other than deny it, but we can easily see why data
 held by Wikipedia (including partially anonymized e-mails, file
 uploads, talk page communication, etc.) would be of interest to
 intelligence agencies.

The capacity of the Wikimedia Foundation to keep a secret of this nature
is law. Simply too many outlaws; something NSA could probably figure out;
they are not called intelligence for nothing.

Fred


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Fred Bauder
I think it's more reasonable to assume that
 Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter,
Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind
of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be
able to do anything other than deny it, but we can easily see why data
held by Wikipedia (including partially anonymized e-mails, file
 uploads, talk page communication, etc.) would be of interest to
 intelligence agencies.

The capacity of the Wikimedia Foundation to keep a secret of this nature
is low. Simply too many outlaws; something NSA could probably figure out;
they are not called intelligence for nothing.

Fred

Changed law to low


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 07/31/2013 09:27 PM, Ryan Lane wrote:
 I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was
 the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation.

And very many of us live outside the jurisdiction of the entities that
would be doing the monitoring and would be very noisy indeed if
something of that nature took place.

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Todd Allen
Also keep in mind that WMF has explicitly stated that they received no such
demand. If they had, they still could say If we had received such a
demand, we couldn't legally discuss it, still comply with the order, and
let us read between the lines. While I don't always agree with WMF, I have
more regard for them than to think they would flat out lie about a matter
that important.
On Jul 31, 2013 7:59 PM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote:

 On 07/31/2013 09:27 PM, Ryan Lane wrote:
  I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this
 was
  the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation.

 And very many of us live outside the jurisdiction of the entities that
 would be doing the monitoring and would be very noisy indeed if
 something of that nature took place.

 -- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread James Salsman
Nathan wrote:

... It seems that most of the data they
 collect is wiped within 3 days; that the data itself can only be
 analyzed under a fairly specific set of minimization rules

Are you referring to the 2009 Holder minimization rules which per
http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2013/06/how-many-americans-does-the-nsa-spy-on-a-lot-of-them.htmlrequire
sharing records on anyone who has ever sent or received email or
chat from a foreign national with the FBI, or the more recent three hop
minimization rules which require permanent storage of the records
pertaining to the roughly one billion people who are connected to people
connected to people connected with suspects?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Anthony
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was
 the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation.


Key word there being knowingly.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Tim Starling
On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 
 I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was
 the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation.

 
 Key word there being knowingly.

I don't know why the NSA would sneak around in our data centres
mirroring our ethernet ports if they already have almost all of our
access logs by capturing unencrypted traffic as it passes through
XKeyscore nodes.

I think you should save the conspiracy theories until after we switch
anons to HTTPS, that's when they will have an incentive.

-- Tim Starling


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Anna Koval
very helpful, james. thanks so much for clue-ing me in. definitely want to
know more of the backstory on the chapters sometime. ttyt :)

On Wednesday, July 31, 2013, Tim Starling wrote:

 On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote:
  On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane 
  rl...@wikimedia.orgjavascript:;
 wrote:
 
  I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this
 was
  the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation.
 
 
  Key word there being knowingly.

 I don't know why the NSA would sneak around in our data centres
 mirroring our ethernet ports if they already have almost all of our
 access logs by capturing unencrypted traffic as it passes through
 XKeyscore nodes.

 I think you should save the conspiracy theories until after we switch
 anons to HTTPS, that's when they will have an incentive.

 -- Tim Starling


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-- 
*Anna Koval*
Community Advocate
Wikimedia Foundation
415-839-6885 x 6729
ako...@wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

2013-07-31 Thread Anna Koval
Whoops! :) That wasn't meant to be a reply-to-all. Sorry, everyone. Rookie
mistake... :]


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:36 PM, Anna Koval ako...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 very helpful, james. thanks so much for clue-ing me in. definitely want
 to know more of the backstory on the chapters sometime. ttyt :)


 On Wednesday, July 31, 2013, Tim Starling wrote:

 On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote:
  On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 
  I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this
 was
  the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation.
 
 
  Key word there being knowingly.

 I don't know why the NSA would sneak around in our data centres
 mirroring our ethernet ports if they already have almost all of our
 access logs by capturing unencrypted traffic as it passes through
 XKeyscore nodes.

 I think you should save the conspiracy theories until after we switch
 anons to HTTPS, that's when they will have an incentive.

 -- Tim Starling


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 --
 *Anna Koval*
 Community Advocate
 Wikimedia Foundation
 415-839-6885 x 6729
 ako...@wikimedia.org




-- 
*Anna Koval*
Community Advocate
Wikimedia Foundation
415-839-6885 x 6729
ako...@wikimedia.org
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