Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Fæ]

Thank you for a sensible response.

Hopefully Wikimedia Belgium will be able later to publish some agreed
recommendations or conclusions, both for how this case could have been
handled more appropriately, and how the WMF procedures or policies
should improve better to protect the interests of all those involved
in allegations of harassment or similar at our events.

As for others making stereotypical statements about "victims" and
"perpetrators", just shut up please. This was not a criminal case, the
police were not called, and this is not about you and your need for
virtue signalling. There are real people involved and the only thing
on the table has been an allegation which should have been resolved at
the time, not left with toxic fallout that appears to have now damaged
the reputations of both parties, along with Wikimedia organizations.

Thanks,
Fae
-- 
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 09:48, Geert Van Pamel  wrote:
>
> The initial message was a private message from Romaine (WMBE Board member)
> on his own initiative; not verified, nor approved by (the Board of)
> Wikimedia Belgium. Please read this reply carefully in order to try to bring
> more clarity.
>
> I have immediately notified Romaine that he abused his function in the WMBE
> Board to communicate private matters on the general mailinglist.
>
> Since Monday I am in private contact, both with T and the management of
> Wikimedia Nederland to follow-up this dispute. This caused delay in replying
> to this message. The Wikimedia Belgium Board will continue to evaluate the
> situation and take further measures.
>
> Wikimedia Belgium wants to apologize for any moral damage that the initial
> message provoked.
>
> What one member of the general assembly did propose is that an internal
> audit could be requested to investigate the general behavior, the working,
> the completeness of procedures, and the treatment of cases by the Trust and
> Safety (T), and the grants team.
>
> Specifically, we have encountered as a chapter repeatedly during the last
> several years a lack of appeal, both in the T complaints handling, and in
> the grants team handling sAPG requests.
>
> Specifically in the T handling procedures, the rights of the alleged
> offender are not sufficiently guaranteed. There is a possibility that rumors
> are invoking a punishment without careful verification of the facts, without
> the defendants being sanctioned in a neutral way, and without taking into
> account certain handicaps like hard-hearing, or autism.
>
> That being said, please stop discussing this specific conflict publicly,
> because a lot of important details are missing, are single-sided
> interpretations, or even completely wrong.
>
>
>
> -- Geert Van Pamel, chair of Wikimedia Belgium
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Geert Van Pamel]

The initial message was a private message from Romaine (WMBE Board member)
on his own initiative; not verified, nor approved by (the Board of)
Wikimedia Belgium. Please read this reply carefully in order to try to bring
more clarity.

I have immediately notified Romaine that he abused his function in the WMBE
Board to communicate private matters on the general mailinglist. 

Since Monday I am in private contact, both with T and the management of
Wikimedia Nederland to follow-up this dispute. This caused delay in replying
to this message. The Wikimedia Belgium Board will continue to evaluate the
situation and take further measures.

Wikimedia Belgium wants to apologize for any moral damage that the initial
message provoked.

What one member of the general assembly did propose is that an internal
audit could be requested to investigate the general behavior, the working,
the completeness of procedures, and the treatment of cases by the Trust and
Safety (T), and the grants team.

Specifically, we have encountered as a chapter repeatedly during the last
several years a lack of appeal, both in the T complaints handling, and in
the grants team handling sAPG requests.

Specifically in the T handling procedures, the rights of the alleged
offender are not sufficiently guaranteed. There is a possibility that rumors
are invoking a punishment without careful verification of the facts, without
the defendants being sanctioned in a neutral way, and without taking into
account certain handicaps like hard-hearing, or autism. 

That being said, please stop discussing this specific conflict publicly,
because a lot of important details are missing, are single-sided
interpretations, or even completely wrong.

 

-- Geert Van Pamel, chair of Wikimedia Belgium

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Isaac Olatunde]

The "sender is Romaine" is not the same as  "Romaine is WMBE". This sort of
confusion should have been prevented by allowing another person to send
this email on behalf of WMBE.

Regards,

Isaac



On Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 3:48 PM Dariusz Jemielniak 
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:26 PM Michel Vuijlsteke  > wrote:
> In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
> rumour about them?
>
> My understanding is that noone was banned from an event.
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:28 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've read and reread the WMBE message, and have not found anything near
> "pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward".
>
> I'm referring to message from Caroline.
>
>
> I also do not understand why you're addressing WMBE as "Romaine" (begging
> the question?).
>
> Can you please clarify?
>
> The message was sent from romaine.w...@gmail.com romaine.w...@gmail.com> account and I assumed that addressing the sender
> as "Romaine" is appropriate.
>
> best,
>
> dj
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Ciell Wikipedia]

Hello Caroline,

I'm very sorry for what happened back in Capetown and that today you are
reminded of this again through a public mailing list, where the story is
starting to lead it's own life. I can only imagine that you felt the need
to correct this misinterpretation of what happened to you.
I know Romaine for several years and recognise the behaviour you are
describing and even though I know he doesn't mean any harm with it (it's
his enthusiasm that gets the better of him), I do realise it may cause
distress with the other person. If you want to talk to me about this,
please contact me of list. If this was enough for you, please do not feel
you have to send any additional responses.

Hi all,

I was present at the assembly last Saturday and the whole situation is very
complicated. I think, in his emotions to tell his story, Romaine indeed got
two situations mixed up here and the emotional part should not be discussed
on a public list.
Furthermore I know first hand that both the chair of WMNL and WMBE are
involved in the conversations with T and the WMF: there is no need for us
to re-review this process, that is still ongoing at the moment.

Please let's close this thread.

Vriendelijke groet,
Ciell



Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Op ma 17 jun. 2019 om 17:39 schreef Caroline Becker :

> I was forced to step up *today* on this mailing list because the
> description of the WIkimania 2018 incident in the first mail was false: the
> claim that "none of us expressed there was a problem" is simply not what
> happened.
>
> And by the way this is exactly why the details of stuff like that are NOT
> shared publicly. For me the incident was closed and well handled by the T
> team, I really didn't need a debate where people are expressing their
> uninformed, bar room like opinions about the seriousness of the incident or
> what should or should not have been done.
>
> Caroline
>
>
> Le lun. 17 juin 2019 à 17:14, Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com>
> a écrit :
>
> > Hi Dariusz,
> >
> > I understand Caroline wanted to add that she was finding difficult that
> > Romain was not aware of her stress or unease on a specific situation
> > vaguely described there (without any mention to her at all). And that
> later
> > they have talked about it, and she accepted his apologies for that in
> > private. I can't find the least evidence of her being forced to step up
> and
> > expose herself just to clarify that there. As far as I know, it never was
> > in question that some people felt uneasy with some behavior there. They
> > talked about it, apologies were presented, end of story. Or would have
> been
> > end of story, if not for the T interference.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> > Dariusz Jemielniak  escreveu no dia segunda,
> 17/06/2019
> > à(s) 16:04:
> >
> > > Hi Paulo,
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:54 PM Paulo Santos Perneta wrote:
> > > " I'm referring to message from Caroline" - How have you jumped from
> > > Caroline wanting to further clarify something, to the conclusion that
> the
> > > OP was  "pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step
> forward"?
> > >
> > > I'm specifically referring to this sentence " I really do not
> appreciate
> > > having this particular incident discussed here and being forced to step
> > up
> > > like that."
> > >
> > > Yes, she claims to have been "forced to step up", but were you able to
> > > find any evidence for that in the OP? Any accusation is automatically
> > true?
> > >
> > > I believe that the person who voluntarily identified herself as the one
> > > requesting T support is not randomly lying about that. I don't think
> it
> > > was an accusation, it was an expression of the personal urge to set the
> > > record straight.
> > >
> > > Again, please note that I'm not referring to what did or did not
> happen a
> > > year ago. I've been trying to express my frustration with discussing
> > > personal details and stories on a public list. I've clearly failed.
> > >
> > > best,
> > >
> > > dj
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
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> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Caroline Becker]

I was forced to step up *today* on this mailing list because the
description of the WIkimania 2018 incident in the first mail was false: the
claim that "none of us expressed there was a problem" is simply not what
happened.

And by the way this is exactly why the details of stuff like that are NOT
shared publicly. For me the incident was closed and well handled by the T
team, I really didn't need a debate where people are expressing their
uninformed, bar room like opinions about the seriousness of the incident or
what should or should not have been done.

Caroline


Le lun. 17 juin 2019 à 17:14, Paulo Santos Perneta 
a écrit :

> Hi Dariusz,
>
> I understand Caroline wanted to add that she was finding difficult that
> Romain was not aware of her stress or unease on a specific situation
> vaguely described there (without any mention to her at all). And that later
> they have talked about it, and she accepted his apologies for that in
> private. I can't find the least evidence of her being forced to step up and
> expose herself just to clarify that there. As far as I know, it never was
> in question that some people felt uneasy with some behavior there. They
> talked about it, apologies were presented, end of story. Or would have been
> end of story, if not for the T interference.
>
> Paulo
>
>
>
> Dariusz Jemielniak  escreveu no dia segunda, 17/06/2019
> à(s) 16:04:
>
> > Hi Paulo,
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:54 PM Paulo Santos Perneta wrote:
> > " I'm referring to message from Caroline" - How have you jumped from
> > Caroline wanting to further clarify something, to the conclusion that the
> > OP was  "pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward"?
> >
> > I'm specifically referring to this sentence " I really do not appreciate
> > having this particular incident discussed here and being forced to step
> up
> > like that."
> >
> > Yes, she claims to have been "forced to step up", but were you able to
> > find any evidence for that in the OP? Any accusation is automatically
> true?
> >
> > I believe that the person who voluntarily identified herself as the one
> > requesting T support is not randomly lying about that. I don't think it
> > was an accusation, it was an expression of the personal urge to set the
> > record straight.
> >
> > Again, please note that I'm not referring to what did or did not happen a
> > year ago. I've been trying to express my frustration with discussing
> > personal details and stories on a public list. I've clearly failed.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > dj
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Hi Dariusz,

I understand Caroline wanted to add that she was finding difficult that
Romain was not aware of her stress or unease on a specific situation
vaguely described there (without any mention to her at all). And that later
they have talked about it, and she accepted his apologies for that in
private. I can't find the least evidence of her being forced to step up and
expose herself just to clarify that there. As far as I know, it never was
in question that some people felt uneasy with some behavior there. They
talked about it, apologies were presented, end of story. Or would have been
end of story, if not for the T interference.

Paulo



Dariusz Jemielniak  escreveu no dia segunda, 17/06/2019
à(s) 16:04:

> Hi Paulo,
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:54 PM Paulo Santos Perneta wrote:
> " I'm referring to message from Caroline" - How have you jumped from
> Caroline wanting to further clarify something, to the conclusion that the
> OP was  "pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward"?
>
> I'm specifically referring to this sentence " I really do not appreciate
> having this particular incident discussed here and being forced to step up
> like that."
>
> Yes, she claims to have been "forced to step up", but were you able to
> find any evidence for that in the OP? Any accusation is automatically true?
>
> I believe that the person who voluntarily identified herself as the one
> requesting T support is not randomly lying about that. I don't think it
> was an accusation, it was an expression of the personal urge to set the
> record straight.
>
> Again, please note that I'm not referring to what did or did not happen a
> year ago. I've been trying to express my frustration with discussing
> personal details and stories on a public list. I've clearly failed.
>
> best,
>
> dj
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Dariusz Jemielniak]

Hi Paulo,


On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:54 PM Paulo Santos Perneta wrote:
" I'm referring to message from Caroline" - How have you jumped from Caroline 
wanting to further clarify something, to the conclusion that the OP was  
"pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward"?

I'm specifically referring to this sentence " I really do not appreciate having 
this particular incident discussed here and being forced to step up
like that."

Yes, she claims to have been "forced to step up", but were you able to find any 
evidence for that in the OP? Any accusation is automatically true?

I believe that the person who voluntarily identified herself as the one 
requesting T support is not randomly lying about that. I don't think it was 
an accusation, it was an expression of the personal urge to set the record 
straight.

Again, please note that I'm not referring to what did or did not happen a year 
ago. I've been trying to express my frustration with discussing personal 
details and stories on a public list. I've clearly failed.

best,

dj


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Gabriel Thullen]

Thank you WMBE for your long report.
I was at Wikimania 2018 and I was deeply troubled by the actions taken by
the Trust & Safety team. I now have a much clearer understanding of what
went on, and I feel that there really needs to be some introspection done
by the Trust & Safety team.
I am also quite horrified by your quote about a comment "that Wikimedia
France and Wikimedia
Netherlands could take everything over in Belgium".
This is really so insesitive and displays such ignorance of the different
European cultures that I just cannot understand why the record has not been
set right. Belgium cannot be split up between France and the Netherlands,
just like Switzerland cannot be split up between France, Germany and Italy
(leaving just the little Romansh speaking  area to fend for itself).
Seriously, something is wrong at the Foundation, and this needs to be fixed.

Gabe
proud member of WMCH, a multi-lingual and multi-cultural chapter


On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:53 PM Ziko van Dijk  wrote:

> Hello,
> It seems to me the best that a (different) member of the WMBE board
> contacts a suitable person at WMF. A public list is not the best place
> for sorting these things out.
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
> Am Mo., 17. Juni 2019 um 16:48 Uhr schrieb Dariusz Jemielniak
> :
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:26 PM Michel Vuijlsteke  > wrote:
> > In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
> > rumour about them?
> >
> > My understanding is that noone was banned from an event.
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:28 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've read and reread the WMBE message, and have not found anything near
> "pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward".
> >
> > I'm referring to message from Caroline.
> >
> >
> > I also do not understand why you're addressing WMBE as "Romaine"
> (begging the question?).
> >
> > Can you please clarify?
> >
> > The message was sent from romaine.w...@gmail.com romaine.w...@gmail.com> account and I assumed that addressing the sender
> as "Romaine" is appropriate.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > dj
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

" I'm referring to message from Caroline" - How have you jumped from
Caroline wanting to further clarify something, to the conclusion that the
OP was  "pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward"?
Yes, she claims to have been "forced to step up", but were you able to find
any evidence for that in the OP? Any accusation is automatically true?

Paulo

Dariusz Jemielniak  escreveu no dia segunda, 17/06/2019
à(s) 15:48:

>
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:26 PM Michel Vuijlsteke  > wrote:
> In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
> rumour about them?
>
> My understanding is that noone was banned from an event.
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:28 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've read and reread the WMBE message, and have not found anything near
> "pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward".
>
> I'm referring to message from Caroline.
>
>
> I also do not understand why you're addressing WMBE as "Romaine" (begging
> the question?).
>
> Can you please clarify?
>
> The message was sent from romaine.w...@gmail.com romaine.w...@gmail.com> account and I assumed that addressing the sender
> as "Romaine" is appropriate.
>
> best,
>
> dj
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Ziko van Dijk]

Hello,
It seems to me the best that a (different) member of the WMBE board
contacts a suitable person at WMF. A public list is not the best place
for sorting these things out.
Kind regards
Ziko

Am Mo., 17. Juni 2019 um 16:48 Uhr schrieb Dariusz Jemielniak
:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:26 PM Michel Vuijlsteke 
> mailto:wikipe...@zog.org>> wrote:
> In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
> rumour about them?
>
> My understanding is that noone was banned from an event.
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:28 PM Paulo Santos Perneta 
> mailto:paulospern...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I've read and reread the WMBE message, and have not found anything near 
> "pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward".
>
> I'm referring to message from Caroline.
>
>
> I also do not understand why you're addressing WMBE as "Romaine" (begging the 
> question?).
>
> Can you please clarify?
>
> The message was sent from 
> romaine.w...@gmail.com account and I assumed 
> that addressing the sender as "Romaine" is appropriate.
>
> best,
>
> dj
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Dariusz Jemielniak]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:26 PM Michel Vuijlsteke 
mailto:wikipe...@zog.org>> wrote:
In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
rumour about them?

My understanding is that noone was banned from an event.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:28 PM Paulo Santos Perneta 
mailto:paulospern...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I've read and reread the WMBE message, and have not found anything near 
"pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward".

I'm referring to message from Caroline.


I also do not understand why you're addressing WMBE as "Romaine" (begging the 
question?).

Can you please clarify?

The message was sent from romaine.w...@gmail.com 
account and I assumed that addressing the sender as "Romaine" is appropriate.

best,

dj
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

I'm comparing it to a case where spreading of rumors led to the
condemnation of presumably innocent people without due process, in a kind
of "precautionary principle".
The punishment in question is immaterial to this case. Or will you argue
that an episode is only worth of attention if people are killed or
physically hurt?

Paulo

Amir Sarabadani  escreveu no dia segunda, 17/06/2019
à(s) 15:36:

> Are you comparing banning someone to participate at conference(s) with
> hanging innocent people?
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:34 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > " In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
> > rumour about them" - that's Wikimedia version of the Salem witch trials.
> > Unbelievable that this sort of thing is coming from one of the WMF
> > trustees, even as a personal opinion.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > Michel Vuijlsteke  escreveu no dia segunda,
> 17/06/2019
> > à(s) 15:26:
> >
> > > On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 16:12, Dariusz Jemielniak 
> > > wrote:
> > > >If there are rumors about physical violence, unbelievable as they may
> > > seem,
> > > >the bottom line common sense is to approach the alleged would-be
> > attacker
> > > and
> > > >request politely that they stay away, to deescalate even just a
> > > potentially tense situation.
> > >
> > > In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
> > > rumour about them?
> > >
> > > >I personally believe this fork of the discussion threat deserves a
> quick
> > > EOT and salting.
> > >
> > > I personally don't.
> > >
> > > Michel
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Amir Sarabadani]

Are you comparing banning someone to participate at conference(s) with
hanging innocent people?

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:34 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:

> " In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
> rumour about them" - that's Wikimedia version of the Salem witch trials.
> Unbelievable that this sort of thing is coming from one of the WMF
> trustees, even as a personal opinion.
>
> Paulo
>
> Michel Vuijlsteke  escreveu no dia segunda, 17/06/2019
> à(s) 15:26:
>
> > On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 16:12, Dariusz Jemielniak 
> > wrote:
> > >If there are rumors about physical violence, unbelievable as they may
> > seem,
> > >the bottom line common sense is to approach the alleged would-be
> attacker
> > and
> > >request politely that they stay away, to deescalate even just a
> > potentially tense situation.
> >
> > In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
> > rumour about them?
> >
> > >I personally believe this fork of the discussion threat deserves a quick
> > EOT and salting.
> >
> > I personally don't.
> >
> > Michel
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

" In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
rumour about them" - that's Wikimedia version of the Salem witch trials.
Unbelievable that this sort of thing is coming from one of the WMF
trustees, even as a personal opinion.

Paulo

Michel Vuijlsteke  escreveu no dia segunda, 17/06/2019
à(s) 15:26:

> On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 16:12, Dariusz Jemielniak 
> wrote:
> >If there are rumors about physical violence, unbelievable as they may
> seem,
> >the bottom line common sense is to approach the alleged would-be attacker
> and
> >request politely that they stay away, to deescalate even just a
> potentially tense situation.
>
> In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
> rumour about them?
>
> >I personally believe this fork of the discussion threat deserves a quick
> EOT and salting.
>
> I personally don't.
>
> Michel
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Isaac Olatunde]

Considering that it was sent by that person, one may reasonably conclude
that it was written by them. That being said, I do not want to believe that
it was not reviewed and approved by the governing board (assuming it was
written by that person). BUT if it was written by another person, reviewed
and approved by the board why is the involved person sending this email on
behalf of WMBE? Just curious.

Regards,

Isaac

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 2:27 PM Thomas Townsend 
wrote:

> Am I right in thinking that this email, containing a long account of
> the alleged poor treatment of the Treasurer of WMBE, referred to
> throughout in the third person, was in fact written by that person?
>
> The Turnip
>
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 10:00, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > On Saturday 15 June 2019 Wikimedia Belgium had its annual General
> Assembly
> > in Brussels.
> >
> > *New board*
> > Two board members have indicated to step down:
> > * Afernand74
> > * SPQRobin
> >
> > We thank them for their work and valuable input in the past years!
> > They remain available for advice to the board.
> >
> > Two board members were up for re-election after their previous terms
> ended.
> > Both board members have been re-elected without any votes against them,
> and
> > they will keep serving Wikimedia Belgium in their roles.
> > * Geertivp - president
> > * Romaine - treasurer
> >
> > One new board member has been elected without any votes against.
> > * Taketa - long term Wikipedia editor and organiser of various activities
> >
> > Welcome Taketa!
> >
> > The rest of the board remains the same and the board continues the work
> and
> > development of our chapter.
> >
> >
> > *Evaluation behaviour WMF*
> > As board we have the obligation to inform the General Assembly and other
> > stakeholders about the developments with our chapter, both the good
> > developments as well as the bad developments.
> >
> > A year ago, with our previous General Assembly, we were hopeful to
> resolve
> > the issues we then had with on other organisation in the movement, the
> > Wikimedia Foundation. Sadly we had to inform the General Assembly that
> > instead of improvements, the behaviour of multiple individuals from the
> > Wikimedia Foundation is below any standard. This concerns one member of
> the
> > grants team and multiple members of the Trust and Safety team, as well as
> > their supervisors.
> >
> > On request of the Trust & Safety team no names are mentioned. Below is a
> > summary of what happened.
> >
> >
> > *Case 1*
> > In April 2017 the treasurer of Wikimedia Belgium (Romaine) spoke with our
> > new grants staff member from the Wikimedia Foundation as WMBE was
> scheduled
> > to change from successful project grants in 2017 and earlier years to
> > Simple Annual Plan grants. During this meeting the plan for WMBE in 2018
> > was proposed and was fine for the grants staff member. In the Summer of
> > 2017 this had been worked out, and with an online call our annual plan
> was
> > considered fine. With the final submission in October 2017, our annual
> > grants proposal was reviewed by the grants staff member from WMF, had
> some
> > minor remarks we fixed, and was considered to be excellent.
> >
> > In December 2017 we were informed that our grant request (suddenly) was,
> to
> > summarise, complete wrong. It contained factual errors (like facts do not
> > matter), inconsistencies, the comment that Wikimedia France and Wikimedia
> > Netherlands could take everything over in Belgium, suggesting that
> Belgium
> > has no culture (this is a serious insult to us), and much more.
> > (For your reference: Wikimedia Belgium had over 90 events and activities
> in
> > 2017, including a photo contest, education program, GLAM program with
> > content donations, workshops and edit-a-thons, and more.)
> >
> > It raised us a lot of questions, which we asked, but our grants member of
> > WMF refused to seriously answer them.
> >
> > Even with our lack of information and received insults, we tried to be
> > constructive and before Christmas we proposed to the grants staff member
> > that we would re-write during the Christmas holidays our annual plan (as
> > the staff member had said many times we could improve it). With the
> e-mail
> > following from the grants member of WMF this proposal was not rejected.
> So
> > during the two weeks of the Christmas holidays we spent many days,
> together
> > with the help from another experienced chapter representative, re-writing
> > our annual plan. After the Christmas holidays, we were ready, and the
> > response from the grants member from WMF was then that the re-written
> > version could not be taken into account...
> >
> > After some further e-mails with this staff member we concluded as WMBE
> mid
> > January 2018 that a collaboration with this individual from WMF is
> > impossible and we banned this individual from ever contacting us again
> and
> > we never communicated ever with this 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Dariusz,

I've read and reread the WMBE message, and have not found anything near
"pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward".
I also do not understand why you're addressing WMBE as "Romaine" (begging
the question?).

Can you please clarify?

Paulo

Dariusz Jemielniak  escreveu no dia segunda, 17/06/2019
à(s) 15:12:

> whoa!
>
> pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward is not ok
> at all. I do not honestly understand why the story from nearly a year ago
> has emerged, with personal details.
>
> It is not unusual for people who caused distress to not have done it
> intentionally, and to genuinely believe they did nothing wrong. It is
> nevertheless the role of the safety team to react to any reports they
> receive.
>
> Romaine, you're describing "a rumor that WMBE's treasurer was planning to
> attack that grants person" and are surprised that the safety team acted
> upon this rumor. I hope it is clear that they did exactly what they should
> have done. If there are rumors about physical violence, unbelievable as
> they may seem, the bottom line common sense is to approach the alleged
> would-be attacker and request politely that they stay away, to deescalate
> even just a potentially tense situation.
>
> I personally believe this fork of the discussion threat deserves a quick
> EOT and salting.
>
> Dariusz "pundit" (replying in my absolutely personal, and hastily
> expressed opinion)
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 16:12, Dariusz Jemielniak  wrote:
>If there are rumors about physical violence, unbelievable as they may seem,
>the bottom line common sense is to approach the alleged would-be attacker
and
>request politely that they stay away, to deescalate even just a
potentially tense situation.

In other words, the best way to ban anyone from any event is to start a
rumour about them?

>I personally believe this fork of the discussion threat deserves a quick
EOT and salting.

I personally don't.

Michel
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Dariusz Jemielniak]

whoa!

pushing people who felt harassed or mistreated to step forward is not ok at 
all. I do not honestly understand why the story from nearly a year ago has 
emerged, with personal details.

It is not unusual for people who caused distress to not have done it 
intentionally, and to genuinely believe they did nothing wrong. It is 
nevertheless the role of the safety team to react to any reports they receive.

Romaine, you're describing "a rumor that WMBE's treasurer was planning to 
attack that grants person" and are surprised that the safety team acted upon 
this rumor. I hope it is clear that they did exactly what they should have 
done. If there are rumors about physical violence, unbelievable as they may 
seem, the bottom line common sense is to approach the alleged would-be attacker 
and request politely that they stay away, to deescalate even just a potentially 
tense situation.

I personally believe this fork of the discussion threat deserves a quick EOT 
and salting.

Dariusz "pundit" (replying in my absolutely personal, and hastily expressed 
opinion)





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Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Thomas Townsend]

Am I right in thinking that this email, containing a long account of
the alleged poor treatment of the Treasurer of WMBE, referred to
throughout in the third person, was in fact written by that person?

The Turnip

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 10:00, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> On Saturday 15 June 2019 Wikimedia Belgium had its annual General Assembly
> in Brussels.
>
> *New board*
> Two board members have indicated to step down:
> * Afernand74
> * SPQRobin
>
> We thank them for their work and valuable input in the past years!
> They remain available for advice to the board.
>
> Two board members were up for re-election after their previous terms ended.
> Both board members have been re-elected without any votes against them, and
> they will keep serving Wikimedia Belgium in their roles.
> * Geertivp - president
> * Romaine - treasurer
>
> One new board member has been elected without any votes against.
> * Taketa - long term Wikipedia editor and organiser of various activities
>
> Welcome Taketa!
>
> The rest of the board remains the same and the board continues the work and
> development of our chapter.
>
>
> *Evaluation behaviour WMF*
> As board we have the obligation to inform the General Assembly and other
> stakeholders about the developments with our chapter, both the good
> developments as well as the bad developments.
>
> A year ago, with our previous General Assembly, we were hopeful to resolve
> the issues we then had with on other organisation in the movement, the
> Wikimedia Foundation. Sadly we had to inform the General Assembly that
> instead of improvements, the behaviour of multiple individuals from the
> Wikimedia Foundation is below any standard. This concerns one member of the
> grants team and multiple members of the Trust and Safety team, as well as
> their supervisors.
>
> On request of the Trust & Safety team no names are mentioned. Below is a
> summary of what happened.
>
>
> *Case 1*
> In April 2017 the treasurer of Wikimedia Belgium (Romaine) spoke with our
> new grants staff member from the Wikimedia Foundation as WMBE was scheduled
> to change from successful project grants in 2017 and earlier years to
> Simple Annual Plan grants. During this meeting the plan for WMBE in 2018
> was proposed and was fine for the grants staff member. In the Summer of
> 2017 this had been worked out, and with an online call our annual plan was
> considered fine. With the final submission in October 2017, our annual
> grants proposal was reviewed by the grants staff member from WMF, had some
> minor remarks we fixed, and was considered to be excellent.
>
> In December 2017 we were informed that our grant request (suddenly) was, to
> summarise, complete wrong. It contained factual errors (like facts do not
> matter), inconsistencies, the comment that Wikimedia France and Wikimedia
> Netherlands could take everything over in Belgium, suggesting that Belgium
> has no culture (this is a serious insult to us), and much more.
> (For your reference: Wikimedia Belgium had over 90 events and activities in
> 2017, including a photo contest, education program, GLAM program with
> content donations, workshops and edit-a-thons, and more.)
>
> It raised us a lot of questions, which we asked, but our grants member of
> WMF refused to seriously answer them.
>
> Even with our lack of information and received insults, we tried to be
> constructive and before Christmas we proposed to the grants staff member
> that we would re-write during the Christmas holidays our annual plan (as
> the staff member had said many times we could improve it). With the e-mail
> following from the grants member of WMF this proposal was not rejected. So
> during the two weeks of the Christmas holidays we spent many days, together
> with the help from another experienced chapter representative, re-writing
> our annual plan. After the Christmas holidays, we were ready, and the
> response from the grants member from WMF was then that the re-written
> version could not be taken into account...
>
> After some further e-mails with this staff member we concluded as WMBE mid
> January 2018 that a collaboration with this individual from WMF is
> impossible and we banned this individual from ever contacting us again and
> we never communicated ever with this person again.
>
> The supervisor of this staff member has been informed by us about what
> happened, and refused to even investigate the situation.
>
> A colleague from the staff member took over and we received our budget for
> 2018. Later during 2018 and 2019 this WMF staff member helped us very well
> with questions, provided useful feedback and the annual plan for 2019 which
> was approved. We are now happy with this collaboration.
>
>
> *Case 2*
> During the Wikimedia Conference in April 2018 we still had many questions
> and our treasurer spoke with various other affiliates if they had advice,
> good practices, etc etc, so that we could improve our future annual plans.
> Instead of 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF

[Caroline Becker]

Hi all,

I have no opinion whatsoever about all the things going on in this mail,
except for this part :

Three additional anonymous complaints were:
* speaking to loud
* standing to close
* having touched someone's hand/arm

It must be noted that *none* of the people that complained to the Trust &
Safety team had indicated to WMBE's treasurer to experience anything as
problem.


You did not just "touched my hand/arm", you took MY stuff from my hands,
and for both medical and personnal reasons which I do not wish to share on
a public list, it was a bad experience for me, and maybe I didn't *say*
anything, but I was visibly distressed. I assumed good faith from you and
accepted your apologizes later in private, but I really do not appreciate
having this particular incident discussed here and being forced to step up
like that.

Caroline


Le lun. 17 juin 2019 à 11:00, Romaine Wiki  a
écrit :

> Hello all,
>
> On Saturday 15 June 2019 Wikimedia Belgium had its annual General Assembly
> in Brussels.
>
> *New board*
> Two board members have indicated to step down:
> * Afernand74
> * SPQRobin
>
> We thank them for their work and valuable input in the past years!
> They remain available for advice to the board.
>
> Two board members were up for re-election after their previous terms ended.
> Both board members have been re-elected without any votes against them, and
> they will keep serving Wikimedia Belgium in their roles.
> * Geertivp - president
> * Romaine - treasurer
>
> One new board member has been elected without any votes against.
> * Taketa - long term Wikipedia editor and organiser of various activities
>
> Welcome Taketa!
>
> The rest of the board remains the same and the board continues the work and
> development of our chapter.
>
>
> *Evaluation behaviour WMF*
> As board we have the obligation to inform the General Assembly and other
> stakeholders about the developments with our chapter, both the good
> developments as well as the bad developments.
>
> A year ago, with our previous General Assembly, we were hopeful to resolve
> the issues we then had with on other organisation in the movement, the
> Wikimedia Foundation. Sadly we had to inform the General Assembly that
> instead of improvements, the behaviour of multiple individuals from the
> Wikimedia Foundation is below any standard. This concerns one member of the
> grants team and multiple members of the Trust and Safety team, as well as
> their supervisors.
>
> On request of the Trust & Safety team no names are mentioned. Below is a
> summary of what happened.
>
>
> *Case 1*
> In April 2017 the treasurer of Wikimedia Belgium (Romaine) spoke with our
> new grants staff member from the Wikimedia Foundation as WMBE was scheduled
> to change from successful project grants in 2017 and earlier years to
> Simple Annual Plan grants. During this meeting the plan for WMBE in 2018
> was proposed and was fine for the grants staff member. In the Summer of
> 2017 this had been worked out, and with an online call our annual plan was
> considered fine. With the final submission in October 2017, our annual
> grants proposal was reviewed by the grants staff member from WMF, had some
> minor remarks we fixed, and was considered to be excellent.
>
> In December 2017 we were informed that our grant request (suddenly) was, to
> summarise, complete wrong. It contained factual errors (like facts do not
> matter), inconsistencies, the comment that Wikimedia France and Wikimedia
> Netherlands could take everything over in Belgium, suggesting that Belgium
> has no culture (this is a serious insult to us), and much more.
> (For your reference: Wikimedia Belgium had over 90 events and activities in
> 2017, including a photo contest, education program, GLAM program with
> content donations, workshops and edit-a-thons, and more.)
>
> It raised us a lot of questions, which we asked, but our grants member of
> WMF refused to seriously answer them.
>
> Even with our lack of information and received insults, we tried to be
> constructive and before Christmas we proposed to the grants staff member
> that we would re-write during the Christmas holidays our annual plan (as
> the staff member had said many times we could improve it). With the e-mail
> following from the grants member of WMF this proposal was not rejected. So
> during the two weeks of the Christmas holidays we spent many days, together
> with the help from another experienced chapter representative, re-writing
> our annual plan. After the Christmas holidays, we were ready, and the
> response from the grants member from WMF was then that the re-written
> version could not be taken into account...
>
> After some further e-mails with this staff member we concluded as WMBE mid
> January 2018 that a collaboration with this individual from WMF is
> impossible and we banned this individual from ever contacting us again and
> we never communicated ever with this person again.
>
> The supervisor of this staff member has