Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-22 Thread Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
Peter > > > -Original Message- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Aron Manning > > Sent: 11 July 2020 09:23 > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS syste

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-22 Thread Amaroon
:23 > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system > > > > I recall one experience with OTRS in which I've received this brief > answer: > > > > > Report them to ANI and hope you're not *hit in the face w

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-21 Thread Peter Southwood
During Sent: 20 July 2020 00:15 To: effeietsand...@gmail.com; Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system I think he's looking for openness. That doesn't require one to psychoanalyze him; just a straightforward reading of what he has said, especially

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-21 Thread Peter Southwood
List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system Hoi, How can OTRS be part of Wikipedia, it is there for any and all projects. Thanks, GerardM On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 at 10:48, Peter Southwood wrote: > Context is necessary to understand this. > If OTRS part of Wik

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread Gnangarra
The WMF has spent the last 4 years developing a strategy to take us to 2030 everything was on the table. OTRS is the one chink in that process that needs to address community concerns I'm all for improving every system we use. I think it would be good if someone stepped up to hold some

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 23:29, Nathan wrote: > > Tomasz notes, correctly, that OTRS agents on *general > info queues* (which he distinguished from permission queues) just answer > questions, they don't exercise authority. Andy's reply is both > argumentative and inaccurate. Mea culpa. In the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread Nathan
Perfect encapsulation of what's gone wrong here in this debate. Andy makes some really solid points; OTRS is a black hole, has a history of being clubby, etc. That history has a lot of smudge marks on it going all the way back to wiki-en IRC channels and the overlap between IRC admins and OTRS

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread ZI Jony
All points has been raised here are valid points. We should raise a discussion on wiki (maybe OTRS talk or Wikimedia Forum). As Amir said all CU and OS policies are available locally, then why OTRS policies should not be there. Regards, ZI Jony On Tue, Jul 7, 2020, 12:47 PM Tomasz Ganicz

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread Kalman Hajdu
This is a brava step to the end of the whole wikipedia project. More and more mystery less and less truthfulness more and more disillusioned editor. On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 6:20 PM Pete Forsyth wrote: > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 4:17 AM Andy Mabbett > wrote: > > > On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 02:47,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread Gerard Meijssen
--Original Message- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Aron Manning > Sent: 11 July 2020 09:23 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread Dennis During
I think he's looking for openness. That doesn't require one to psychoanalyze him; just a straightforward reading of what he has said, especially in the context of wikidom. If there is some reason why OTRS isn't important enough to merit policies, supervision, and transparency, that should be easy

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 05:04, Gnangarra wrote: > This page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS answers some the questions > including a list of OTRS administrators I don't think it fully answers any of the ten questions discussed in this thread. For example, while it has a list of OTRS

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 10:01, Tomasz Ganicz wrote: > I guess - Andy's main concern is about permission queues on Commons, as the > trigger for his question was a case on Commons. I have already stated that this assumption is false, when someone else made it in this very thread. > In fact -

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread Tomasz Ganicz
I guess - Andy's main concern is about permission queues on Commons, as the trigger for his question was a case on Commons. In fact - OTRS agents answering questions for general info queues have no special power - I mean they do not make any "secretive" decisions - they just inform about rules,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-20 Thread effe iets anders
The problem I indicated is that 'OTRS' is a diffuse system of queues. There are very few policies that govern 'OTRS', and even practices will differ across queues. I'm for example a member of the teams that handle info-nl, permissions-nl and wlx. All those behave very differently. If you replace

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-19 Thread Gnangarra
Full disclosure I am an OTRS agent, I am not speaking on behalf of OTRS I referencing only public information, or personal experiences This page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS answers some the questions including a list of OTRS administrators , the last update to that page which was marked

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-19 Thread Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
I am now quite confused. Are we supposed to ask very specific questions about OTRS hoping to get an answer because if the questions are too generic for sure we will never get a lot of answers? is that the general idea? ok if it helps, here are some of them 1. are OTRS policies categorized

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-19 Thread effe iets anders
On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 7:55 AM Andy Mabbett wrote: > On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 at 09:03, effe iets anders > wrote: > > > > I rather have > > that people make their assumptions explicit so that you have an > opportunity > > to clarify, and use that as the basis for further conversation. > > You seem

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-19 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 at 09:03, effe iets anders wrote: > > I rather have > that people make their assumptions explicit so that you have an opportunity > to clarify, and use that as the basis for further conversation. You seem to be assuming - wrongly - that I have made assumptions which I have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-19 Thread effe iets anders
as > asked in the first place. > Cheers, > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Pete Forsyth > Sent: 17 July 2020 23:17 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Oper

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-18 Thread Peter Southwood
- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pete Forsyth Sent: 17 July 2020 23:17 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system Andy, I agree with you on the substance -- that we should get to a place where

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-17 Thread Pete Forsyth
Andy, I agree with you on the substance -- that we should get to a place where there are clearly articulated policies, with widespread buy-in, that are reliably adhered to. It's the interpersonal stuff that I feel is distracting in a public discussion. If you feel it's worthwhile to talk that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-17 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 17:19, Pete Forsyth wrote: > Since it seems > that multiple people are misunderstanding you on this point, I wonder > whether there's anything you could do to express your views on this point > more clearly. Here is the entire post I made to Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard on 27

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-17 Thread Pete Forsyth
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 4:17 AM Andy Mabbett wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 02:47, Pete Forsyth wrote: > > > We would be better off if > > there were clearly articulated, published policies for OTRS > > Indeed. > Glad we agree on this central point! I think if we can stick to mapping out a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-17 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 02:47, Pete Forsyth wrote: > We would be better off if > there were clearly articulated, published policies for OTRS Indeed. > I think Andy wants to hold somebody responsible for the > absence of those things You are mistaken; and I have complained previously in this

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-16 Thread Pete Forsyth
I believe there's an important point about OTRS to discuss, but the present framing -- rooted in a challenging examination of the issue's history -- is making it difficult to get at. OTRS agents, both individually and as part of a collective, have a tremendous influence over the perception of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-16 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 at 00:09, effe iets anders wrote: > > Jonatan: Implying that there's more secrecy than necessary, is unhelpful. Do you mean to suggest that the current level of secrecy is necessary? > I > would dare say that if the policies that Andy is looking for exist (given > his

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-11 Thread effe iets anders
Jonatan: Implying that there's more secrecy than necessary, is unhelpful. I would dare say that if the policies that Andy is looking for exist (given his inquiry he's looking for a specific set), they should and would be available on meta. If that is not the case, that is more likely due to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-11 Thread Peter Southwood
List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 at 10:48, Peter Southwood wrote: > Context is necessary to understand this. > If OTRS part of Wikipedia? I don't understand that question. The cited answer was received from . If not, Which ANI? >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-11 Thread Aron Manning
n Manning > Sent: 11 July 2020 09:23 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad < > gladjona...@outlook.com> > wrote: > > > 8. if an individual has

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-11 Thread Peter Southwood
-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad wrote: > 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the > process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions > (including contacting and ap

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-11 Thread Aron Manning
On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad wrote: > 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the > process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions > (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)? > I’m unable to answer this

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-10 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 at 10:05, Tomasz Ganicz wrote: > > czw., 9 lip 2020 o 18:53 Andy Mabbett > napisał(a): > > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 07:46, Tomasz Ganicz wrote: > > > > > > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS > > > > agents sign. > > > > > Well, please do

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-10 Thread Tomasz Ganicz
czw., 9 lip 2020 o 18:53 Andy Mabbett napisał(a): > On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 07:46, Tomasz Ganicz wrote: > > > > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS > > > agents sign. > > > Well, please do not create conspiracy theories... > > It's not a conspiracy theory if

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-09 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 07:46, Tomasz Ganicz wrote: > > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS > > agents sign. > Well, please do not create conspiracy theories... It's not a conspiracy theory if there is evidence of a conspiracy. > Actually, as far as I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-09 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 18:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad wrote: > 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies? > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS > agents sign. So who is able to answer it? > I believe OTRS falls under the Communications committee’s purview, There

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-09 Thread Ciell Wikipedia
I agree with Tomek here. And let me emphasize that not all OTRS admins have access to all queues: in fact, I think only the admins do. OTRS is a very fast system with queues per project and again per language, and access is given per queue. A queue is mostly created per Wikimedia project and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-07 Thread Tomasz Ganicz
pon., 6 lip 2020 o 19:52 Jonatan Svensson Glad napisał(a): > Some quick non-answer (better knows as !answers): > > 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies? > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS > agents sign. Any and all >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-06 Thread Jonatan Svensson Glad
Most likely since tickets can be discussed in detail on the wiki amongst agents, and therefore a protective silence on the entire wiki has been put in place. For the other questions (such as how to remove another user as an agent), OTRS admins are not really admins as in the normal wiki-way,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-06 Thread Amir Sarabadani
I understand but my question is "why". There is no other volunteer group that has a private policy. How is it different from CU and OS? On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:56 PM Jonatan Svensson Glad < gladjona...@outlook.com> wrote: > At the bottom of https://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org/ you can see that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-06 Thread Jonatan Svensson Glad
At the bottom of https://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org/ you can see that there is a link called "Confidentiality notice” . What is stated in that confidentiality notice is also confidential, since it is located on the wiki. But

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-06 Thread Nathan
OTRS has always seemed modeled after our wikis; self-selecting, self-perpetuating, self-governing... Often inconsistent, and always opaque to outsiders. There was a time when this was regarded as a feature. As other functions have become more transparent and accountable, OTRS has kept a low

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-06 Thread Amir Sarabadani
Hello, This is the first time that I heard that the rules and policies of a volunteer body are confidential. As a CU and OS we don't have any confidential policy (confidential data, sure) Can you elaborate more? On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:52 PM Jonatan Svensson Glad < gladjona...@outlook.com>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

2020-07-06 Thread Jonatan Svensson Glad
Some quick non-answer (better knows as !answers): 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies? I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS agents sign. Any and all information on the OTRS wiki is private. OTRS wiki is used as a