Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-21 Thread svetlana
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014, at 12:12, MZMcBride wrote:
 Hi.
 
 The German Wikipedia has evaluated and decided against the default use of
 MediaViewer on its project (preferring opt-in, rather than opt-out). Erik
 has made it his mission to impose MediaViewer on the German Wikipedia
 using Wikimedia Foundation staff coercion (cf.
 https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/153302 and
 https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/153345). Both changes have been pushed
 through hastily and have had negative repercussions as a result (missing
 translations, disrupted workflows, etc.). From a recent Bugzilla comment
 about the latter change, it's clear this change was a kneejerk reaction
 without a lot of thought as to the effects.
 
 The security of the entire MediaWiki infrastructure, which in turn is the
 security of a large portion of Wikimedia wikis, heavily relies on the idea
 that local administrators can be trusted. With his provocative actions,
 Erik has declared war on the German Wikipedia.
 
 Given this, there are options for the German Wikipedians. This is a
 non-exhaustive list and may not reflect the latest waste of developer and
 system administrator resources coerced by Erik.

Write an extension which removes superprotect from the wiki. Get local 
consencus on installing that.

svetlana

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-21 Thread svetlana
BTW you should all love this idea:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Engagement_%28Product%29/Process_ideas#Get_local_consencus_for_your_changes

svetlana

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-21 Thread
The page is already overly long and in places impenetrable, and I speak as
a systems analyst with Agile development experience. A shift to plain
English might be useful and more care to avoid dropping in fringe jargon
like Wiki markup is not Turing complete.
On 22 Aug 2014 01:39, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote:

 BTW you should all love this idea:

 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Engagement_%28Product%29/Process_ideas#Get_local_consencus_for_your_changes

 svetlana

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-12 Thread Dan Garry
On 12 August 2014 02:39, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote:

 There needs to be a central place, like the Wikimedia blog, but dedicated
 to tech things - actively announcing everything WM ENGINEERING are doing,
 both in products and in core.


There is. It's called the monthly report. See here for July's for
example: *https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July*

-- 
Dan Garry
Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-12 Thread Guillaume Paumier
Hi,

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dan Garry dga...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 On 12 August 2014 02:39, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote:

 There needs to be a central place, like the Wikimedia blog, but dedicated
 to tech things - actively announcing everything WM ENGINEERING are doing,
 both in products and in core.


 There is. It's called the monthly report. See here for July's for
 example: 
 *https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July

Just a small note: The July report is still being drafted; the latest
published report is the one for June:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/June
. My apologies for forgetting to add the draft template when I created
the page.

To see the latest status update of all current activities* at any
given time, see the Wikimedia engineering status dashboard:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Dashboard

[*] Except for those documented on other wikis, like the work of the
Operations team.

-- 
Guillaume Paumier

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-12 Thread Chris Keating
 Does either of you or anyone else see a valid reason to deny this
 seemingly reasonable and considered request? It's quite obvious that hacks
 to achieve the same ends are far from ideal. Why not simply disable
 MediaViewer by default on the German Wikipedia, as requested?


In my view, the technical configuration and user experience of WMF wikis
are areas where community discussion is advisory rather than decisive.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-12 Thread Balázs Viczián
It seems that poor (and insufficient) communication is a pretty widespread
problem at WMF.

Balazs


2014-08-12 13:25 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com:

  Does either of you or anyone else see a valid reason to deny this
  seemingly reasonable and considered request? It's quite obvious that
 hacks
  to achieve the same ends are far from ideal. Why not simply disable
  MediaViewer by default on the German Wikipedia, as requested?
 

 In my view, the technical configuration and user experience of WMF wikis
 are areas where community discussion is advisory rather than decisive.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread Russavia
Brad

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) bjor...@wikimedia.org
 wrote:

 *Note these are entirely my own personal opinions as a community member and
 in no way at all represent anything official.*

 On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:12 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 
  I'm interested to read others' views about options and ways forward here.
 

 People could realize that demagoguery and warring is going to make
 everything much harder that it needs to be, and decide to block the people
 trying to escalate the issue so that more rational people can work out a
 rational solution.

 On the enwiki VPT thread about this, User:Fluffernutter suggested that we
 could eliminate 90% of the drama over software deployments by topic-banning
 a small number of people from the discussions. That'd probably be a much
 more productive topic than trying to brainstorm ways to make the situation
 worse.


Can you please confirm that you are one of the people who did Erik's
bidding on this issue.

On a personal level or not, I find it disturbing that you would suggest
topic banning people because they have a dissenting opinion from the WMF.
This will not lead to rational discussion, but an echo chamberis that
what people want?

Russavia
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread phoebe ayers
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:12 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 Hi.



 I'm interested to read others' views about options and ways forward here.



I think the most helpful thing would be to not attempt to start wars, and
particularly not on behalf of anyone or against individuals. We are all on
the same side here: trying to make the projects (and the project
interfaces, as a part of that) better. That includes, for instance, trying
out a new way of viewing photographs.

I assume of course and as always that you send your message from a place of
also wanting the projects to be better and more usable. But it is hard to
see how anything you suggest above gets us there.

best,
-- phoebe
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread svetlana
One more option: wait for WMF to make wiki unbreakable and scriptable 
*properly*, using something like Firefox's jetpack (which is fool proof)

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread Chris Keating

 I think the most helpful thing would be to not attempt to start wars, and
 particularly not on behalf of anyone or against individuals. We are all on
 the same side here: trying to make the projects (and the project
 interfaces, as a part of that) better. That includes, for instance, trying
 out a new way of viewing photographs.

 I assume of course and as always that you send your message from a place of
 also wanting the projects to be better and more usable. But it is hard to
 see how anything you suggest above gets us there.


I agree with everything Phoebe's said.

In particular, I find it difficult to take people seriously when they're
suggesting solutions like disabling the German Wikipedia. I am more
than a little surprised this even needs to be said.

Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread MZMcBride
phoebe ayers wrote:
I think the most helpful thing would be to not attempt to start wars, and
particularly not on behalf of anyone or against individuals. We are all on
the same side here: trying to make the projects (and the project
interfaces, as a part of that) better. That includes, for instance, trying
out a new way of viewing photographs.

I assume of course and as always that you send your message from a place
of also wanting the projects to be better and more usable. But it is hard
to see how anything you suggest above gets us there.

A few weeks ago, Erik reverted on the English Wikipedia and created a
storm of drama in the process. Within the past few days, Erik hastily
pushed through a new protection level on the German Wikipedia, without any
consensus and as a means of inhibiting implementation of consensus. Due to
the haste and the fundamental flaw of trying to restrict the admin group,
Erik then had to double-down on trying to impose this feature on the
German Wikipedia by having the core MediaWiki software altered and hastily
deployed. He then re-reverted on the German Wikipedia.

If this issue related to online harassment or child protection or
biographies of living people or the ability of users to edit or something
else that matters, it might make sense for Erik to step in. But I'd be
curious to read whether you think Erik's behavior has been acceptable,
appropriate, or proportionate here.

It's easy, if not a bit trite, to call for peace and love on all sides and
claim that we're all in this together. But when I look at Erik forcing
supplementary software on a community that has clearly stated that it's
not interested, wasting developer, system administrator, and translator
resources in the process, I'm inclined to think that Erik is not looking
to make the projects better. Erik is actively and perhaps permanently
damaging the relationship between the Wikimedia Foundation and the German
Wikipedia (and other wikis as well). Unelected Erik has a shiny new toy
and everyone will experience it, or else.

Copied from Meta-Wiki:

---
Erik has decided to take a might makes right approach and I'm concerned
to see responsible and clueful users like yourself endorsing his actions
here. What do Erik's unilateral actions on the English and German
Wikipedias say about him? What does it say about the features he's forcing
on users? Users should want new features. Erik shouldn't be coercing
employees to try to ensure that new features are active everywhere.
---

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread Todd Allen
On Aug 11, 2014 1:57 AM, phoebe ayers phoebe.w...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:12 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

  Hi.
 
 

  I'm interested to read others' views about options and ways forward
here.



 I think the most helpful thing would be to not attempt to start wars, and
 particularly not on behalf of anyone or against individuals. We are all on
 the same side here: trying to make the projects (and the project
 interfaces, as a part of that) better. That includes, for instance, trying
 out a new way of viewing photographs.

 I assume of course and as always that you send your message from a place
of
 also wanting the projects to be better and more usable. But it is hard to
 see how anything you suggest above gets us there.

 best,
 -- phoebe
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Helpful to not start wars? Well, yes, that would be helpful. But the war is
already underway, started by the shots Erik has fired.

The question now is how we restore peace. But Shut up and give up local
control is not the answer to that question. As with any conflict, hard
lines will lead to escalation and digging in.

There are steps we could take to ensure changes are desired and welcomed by
local communities. Some need to take place on the community side, many on
the WMF side. But ramming unwanted stuff in is not the way there.

If Erik will not step back from this brink, I fear we will see more
escalation. This isn't just about Media Viewer, or Visual Editor, or
ACTRIAL. It is about WMF being seen as usurping local project control to
deploy its pet projects. Whether that perception is right or not,
perception is reality here.

Your move, Erik. Please don't continue on this road. We're supposed to be
on the same side.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread Richard Symonds
Guys,

This isn't a war, it's an argument on the internet.  No-one is dying and
no-one is being shot at. No-one is even being arrested and I doubt anyone
has even been shouted at in person.

Can we please view this as what it is - a technical issue which can be
resolved - rather than throwing around words like war and firing shots
and thermonuclear?

Once again: This isn't a war, it's an argument on the internet, and it can
be solved if we all act pleasantly.

Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*


On 11 August 2014 15:35, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Aug 11, 2014 1:57 AM, phoebe ayers phoebe.w...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:12 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:
 
   Hi.
  
  
 
   I'm interested to read others' views about options and ways forward
 here.
 
 
 
  I think the most helpful thing would be to not attempt to start wars, and
  particularly not on behalf of anyone or against individuals. We are all
 on
  the same side here: trying to make the projects (and the project
  interfaces, as a part of that) better. That includes, for instance,
 trying
  out a new way of viewing photographs.
 
  I assume of course and as always that you send your message from a place
 of
  also wanting the projects to be better and more usable. But it is hard to
  see how anything you suggest above gets us there.
 
  best,
  -- phoebe
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 Helpful to not start wars? Well, yes, that would be helpful. But the war is
 already underway, started by the shots Erik has fired.

 The question now is how we restore peace. But Shut up and give up local
 control is not the answer to that question. As with any conflict, hard
 lines will lead to escalation and digging in.

 There are steps we could take to ensure changes are desired and welcomed by
 local communities. Some need to take place on the community side, many on
 the WMF side. But ramming unwanted stuff in is not the way there.

 If Erik will not step back from this brink, I fear we will see more
 escalation. This isn't just about Media Viewer, or Visual Editor, or
 ACTRIAL. It is about WMF being seen as usurping local project control to
 deploy its pet projects. Whether that perception is right or not,
 perception is reality here.

 Your move, Erik. Please don't continue on this road. We're supposed to be
 on the same side.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread Brandon Harris

Your responses here are coming across as very personally targeted and 
focused. 

Attempting to demonize Erik is a mistake and clouds the issue.  Erik is 
acting as an officer, not as an individual.

On Aug 11, 2014, at 1:40 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 Erik has decided to take a might makes right approach and I'm concerned
 to see responsible and clueful users like yourself endorsing his actions
 here. What do Erik's unilateral actions on the English and German
 Wikipedias say about him? What does it say about the features he's forcing
 on users? Users should want new features. Erik shouldn't be coercing
 employees to try to ensure that new features are active everywhere.

---
Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread Todd Allen
Brandon,

Are you stating that Erik is not calling the shots here? If that's the
case, could someone please clarify who is in charge and asked for the new
right to be enabled?
On Aug 11, 2014 10:13 AM, Brandon Harris bhar...@wikimedia.org wrote:


 Your responses here are coming across as very personally targeted
 and focused.

 Attempting to demonize Erik is a mistake and clouds the issue.
  Erik is acting as an officer, not as an individual.

 On Aug 11, 2014, at 1:40 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

  Erik has decided to take a might makes right approach and I'm concerned
  to see responsible and clueful users like yourself endorsing his actions
  here. What do Erik's unilateral actions on the English and German
  Wikipedias say about him? What does it say about the features he's
 forcing
  on users? Users should want new features. Erik shouldn't be coercing
  employees to try to ensure that new features are active everywhere.

 ---
 Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation

 Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread Brandon Harris

I'm stating that the tone here implies that Erik is some weird overlord 
who orders everyone around and we cower in fear and do His Bidding.

It's not true.  If you want to be angry, be angry at the Foundation.  
Targeting Erik (or Jan) specifically is a mistake.


On Aug 11, 2014, at 5:29 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote:

 Are you stating that Erik is not calling the shots here? If that's the
 case, could someone please clarify who is in charge and asked for the new
 right to be enabled?

---
Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread Pete Forsyth
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Brandon Harris bhar...@wikimedia.org
wrote:


 Erik is acting as an officer, not as an individual.


Brandon, it is not as clear-cut as you suggest, and the lack of clarity
originates at the Wikimedia Foundation.

The most explicit statement I've seen on this topic is then-Executive
Director Sue Gardner, in April 2014:

When WMF staff edit the projects, they (we) are subject to the same policies
and guidelines as everybody else. That means that if a staff person breaks
a rule on the projects, that person risks being warned or reverted or
sanctioned by the community, the same as everybody. There are no special
WMF policies related to this. ... Editorial policies are developed, and
therefore also best-understood and best-enforced, not by the WMF but by the
community.

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2014-April/071161.html

A decision about how the public consumes Wikipedia content (e.g., Media
Viewer) is an editorial decision, and it's one that the WMF has chosen to
make unilaterally. WMF has furthermore moved to give its staff rights that
facilitate unilateral behavior in the future. But to the degree that Sue
Gardner's policy remains in place (and I'm assuming it does), the WMF's
position is that any problematic actions taken by individual staff should
be subject to community processes.

As I explained in the email thread linked above, I do think this is the
wrong policy, and very unsuited to the way Wikimedia works or should work.
But it is the policy, nonetheless. Individual WMF staff have crossed
important lines, fundamentally challenging our decision-making structure
without seeking, much less securing, important buy-in. The WMF will
ultimately be accountable for the consequences; but in the meantime, the
individuals involved in the decision must be treated as responsible for
their actions, specifically because that is what the Office of the
Executive Director has stated as its expectation.

Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread Pete Forsyth
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com
wrote:

 
 
 
  A decision about how the public consumes Wikipedia content (e.g., Media
  Viewer) is an editorial decision,

 and it's one that the WMF has chosen to
  make unilaterally. WMF has furthermore moved to give its staff rights
 that
  facilitate unilateral behavior in the future. But to the degree that Sue
  Gardner's policy remains in place (and I'm assuming it does), the WMF's
  position is that any problematic actions taken by individual staff should
  be subject to community processes.
 

 I think this is a misunderstanding. Erik's actions are pretty clearly made
 in his capacity as a WMF senior staff member, and it follows from that fact
 that the WMF regard this a decision that it is (at least in the final
 analysis) one that is theirs to take (that is to say, not editorial

 Arguing that Erik ought to be sanctioned on the German wikipedia for doing
 his job is, being as kind as possible, futile wikilawyering.

 If you disagree with what he is doing then some appropriate courses of
 action involve speaking to Foundation ED or their Board.  There are many
 other inappropriate courses of action that are being pursued as well,
 though.


Yeah -- and speaking for myself, I see much more value in approaching this
as an organizational issue, than as individual actions.

But when the organization acts unilaterally, it's reasonable to expect that
those being overruled will explore all options available to them. And my
point is, this one is not merely available, but is endorsed by the WMF
itself.

Those discussing the flaws in the approach taken by individual WMF staff
members (which doesn't include me) are doing what the WMF has said they
should do.

Pete
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread rupert THURNER
brandon, erik is an intelligent person. and of course at the end persons
are acting, not organizations. if german elected  community members,
trusted ones, think it is not good enough, why not just let it be? its easy
to get the reasons and act on it. wikipedia was and is community driven.
your salary is paid indirectly by these community efforts. so do take the
artificial time pressure out of it and let it mature. wikipedia will not
loose or gain readers depending if mediaviewer is switched on or off by
default.

rupert
Am 11.08.2014 18:43 schrieb Brandon Harris bhar...@wikimedia.org:


 I'm stating that the tone here implies that Erik is some weird
 overlord who orders everyone around and we cower in fear and do His Bidding.

 It's not true.  If you want to be angry, be angry at the
 Foundation.  Targeting Erik (or Jan) specifically is a mistake.


 On Aug 11, 2014, at 5:29 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote:

  Are you stating that Erik is not calling the shots here? If that's the
  case, could someone please clarify who is in charge and asked for the new
  right to be enabled?

 ---
 Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation

 Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-11 Thread MZMcBride
Chris Keating wrote:
In particular, I find it difficult to take people seriously when they're
suggesting solutions like disabling the German Wikipedia. I am more
than a little surprised this even needs to be said.

Magnus Manske wrote:
Strange. I seem to distinctly remember that, yesterday on Wikimania, many
(most) of us agreed that Wikipedia is an incredibly valuable resource to
the world, and that it is our mission, as a community, to protect and
improve it, and to make it available to even more people.

Your suggestion to sabotage that resource, even if it's just (!) in
German, because a few long-time editors there now have to (once) click a
checkbox to *not* see the Media viewer, strikes me as somewhat
incompatible with that mission.

Just as a thought experiment, I wonder: if a group of German Wikipedians
rented office space in San Francisco, gathered in a conference room, and
recorded themselves as they cheered on the disabling of the German
Wikipedia, would that then be acceptable? There's certainly precedent:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Permalink/67445170.

I don't need to be sold on the value or virtue of Wikipedia and I labeled
the extreme options as such. The German Wikipedia discussed and evaluated
MediaViewer and decided that MediaViewer should not be enabled by default.
German Wikipedians followed the proper procedure to request a wiki
configuration change (cf. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/69292).

Does either of you or anyone else see a valid reason to deny this
seemingly reasonable and considered request? It's quite obvious that hacks
to achieve the same ends are far from ideal. Why not simply disable
MediaViewer by default on the German Wikipedia, as requested?

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Options for the German Wikipedia

2014-08-10 Thread Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
*Note these are entirely my own personal opinions as a community member and
in no way at all represent anything official.*

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:12 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:


 I'm interested to read others' views about options and ways forward here.


People could realize that demagoguery and warring is going to make
everything much harder that it needs to be, and decide to block the people
trying to escalate the issue so that more rational people can work out a
rational solution.

On the enwiki VPT thread about this, User:Fluffernutter suggested that we
could eliminate 90% of the drama over software deployments by topic-banning
a small number of people from the discussions. That'd probably be a much
more productive topic than trying to brainstorm ways to make the situation
worse.
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