Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-25 Thread edward
On Fri May 23 23:06:32 UTC 2014 Wil Sinclair wrote: The trash talk. . . Most of the concerns I've heard about WO involve the snarky, personal comments that are front and center in the forums. On Sat May 24 21:33:07 UTC 2014 David Gerard wrote: It's a festering pit of spammers, trolls and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-25 Thread David Gerard
On 25 May 2014 01:11, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Thanks, David, and I agree 100% that there's a lot that I can only learn by participating. That's one reason I'm here. :) I've also been uploading sound loops to Commons, and I'm working on a few new articles on various pet interests of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-25 Thread edward
On 25/05/2014 12:16, David Gerard wrote: The main thing to keep in mind is that, even when the community members are being INFURIATING IDIOTS (and almost certainly considering you an infuriating idiot in turn) - that what we're doing here is actually making the world a better place, dot by

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-25 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 12:16 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: The main thing to keep in mind is that, even when the community members are being INFURIATING IDIOTS (and almost certainly considering you an infuriating idiot in turn) - that what we're doing here is actually making the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-25 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Wil Sinclair, 25/05/2014 02:00: why are so many contributors, admins, and upstanding members of the WP community going there to discuss issues instead of talking through them in places like this forum? *ding don* false dichotomy bell rings: why are so many discussing about wiki stuff on

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-25 Thread MZMcBride
MZMcBride wrote: I've read your replies and I understand what you're saying (succinctly summarized by you as ,Wil!=LilaWil!=WMF), but what you're saying and what your actions are saying seem to be in contrast. If you want to get involved with Wikimedia, by all means, that would be great. But

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-25 Thread Wil Sinclair
*ding don* false dichotomy bell rings: why are so many discussing about wiki stuff on Facebook? Or in person with their family? Or or or or or? Besides knowing for a fact that we're not discussing anything like this in our family for obvious reasons, I don't know whether they are being

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-25 Thread Wil Sinclair
On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 4:39 AM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 12:16 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: The main thing to keep in mind is that, even when the community members are being INFURIATING IDIOTS (and almost certainly considering you an

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-25 Thread
On 25 May 2014 17:04, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Besides knowing for a fact that we're not discussing anything like this in our family for obvious reasons, I don't know whether they are being discussed on Facebook or elsewhere. But I do know that they are being discussed quite

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-25 Thread Nathan
On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: And this conversation is getting pretty repetitive, isn't it? Yep! Remember that some of the harsher reactions here have more to do with WR/WO than you. Hope the long string of uniformly negative reactions on the list haven't

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread
On 24/05/2014, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Nathan, like I said, I am not Lila, and I am in no way associated with the WMF. Also, Lila is not technically my wife. :) I honestly don't see what my personal relationships have to do with these issues ... If this were true, then Wil could

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Pete Forsyth
Ha! Awesome stuff. I wish I could find the one of CJ telling Will that his one and only task is to never let the press corps see that they've gotten under his skin... What amazes me isn't anything about his behavior (he has yet to make a point that we haven't all talked through a zillion times,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread edward
On 24/05/2014 03:31, Marc A. Pelletier wrote: *On a surprisingly large number of occasions, the criticism there has led to exposing serious problems that desperately needed fixing, and some of the commentary can be downright painfully precise when pointing out the movement's gaffes. Thanks

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Wil Sinclair
Ha! Awesome stuff. I wish I could find the one of CJ telling Will that his one and only task is to never let the press corps see that they've gotten under his skin... Hi Pete. What are you referring to here? Thanks. ,Wil ___ Wikimedia-l mailing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Wil Sinclair
Hi Pete, you do realize that Lila reads this list, right? That seems rather candid for someone who works so closely with the WMF. If that was not for public eyes, you might consider a public apology. Not for your own professional interests, mind you, but because Lila's a person like the rest of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread
On 24/05/2014, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: ... I just ask for a chance to show you guys that I can be a productive member of the WP community in my own way as myself and nobody else. Fae, will you please give me that chance? ... Sure. Give me a link to some articles on the English

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Wil Sinclair
I just ask for a chance to show you guys that I can be a productive member of the WP community in my own way as myself and nobody else. Fae, will you please give me that chance? ... Sure. Give me a link to some articles on the English Wikipedia you have created, at least one being a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread ENWP Pine
I will say, in Lila's defense, that I've been impressed with what I've seen of her in public. (: However, Wil, I agree with points others have made. I'm concerned that you're going to create drama with what you're doing here, and make Lila's and WMF's jobs more complicated. I am assuming good

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Craig Franklin
Look, we have quite enough non-constructive passive-aggressive stuff going on here without it being added to with thinly veiled threats like this. Please stop. I think the main issue that people have here is that Sue was very private about her private life, at least in public. Now we have the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread
On 24/05/2014, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: OK, excellent. I will do my best and get back to you. Is it cool with you if I do audio instead of photos or videos? Certainly, Commons is massively under-represented with audio files. Check out my audio projects at

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread geni
On 24 May 2014 08:24, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Pete, you do realize that Lila reads this list, right? That seems rather candid for someone who works so closely with the WMF. If that was not for public eyes, you might consider a public apology. Not for your own professional

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Wil Sinclair
Hey what happened to disclaiming any relevant link between the two of you? Not exactly consistent with you canvasing for an apology on her behalf. Of course it is somewhat alarming that you are suggesting that our new ED can't handle robust criticism but I personally prefer to trust the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Wil Sinclair
Craig, I was trying to be kind. If you consider that a threat, then I apologize to you, Pete, and the whole list. I think at this point words have served us about as well as they ever will. Some of you don't like the fact that I've participated on Wikipediocracy. Others are uncomfortable because

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread
On 24/05/2014, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: ... Others are uncomfortable because the incoming ED has a partner who is active in the community, and that is a new thing. No, churning politics off-wiki and then bringing issues raised off-wiki on-wiki, is not being active in the community,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Chris Keating
On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 8:51 AM, ENWP Pine deyntest...@hotmail.com wrote: I will say, in Lila's defense, that I've been impressed with what I've seen of her in public. (: However, Wil, I agree with points others have made. I'm concerned that you're going to create drama with what you're

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
Hello again, Wil. It's obvious that I'm not going to change your mind - nor is it my place to do so. But there /is/ one question of you that I would be remiss to not answer: On 05/23/2014 11:49 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: If they are exposing serious problems that desperately need fixing, then

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread edward
Marc A. Pelletier Sat May 24 02:31:32 UTC 2014 the criticism there has led to exposing **serious problems that desperately needed fixing**, Marc A. Pelletier Sat May 24 15:00:31 UTC 2014 By their obsession over **nits** Which? increasing PR manipulation This has been a consistent focus for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 05/24/2014 11:13 AM, edward wrote: Also this complaint http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sue_Gardner#Child_protection from a sitting arbitrator suggests the issue is a serious one. There are issues indeed about who is supposed to handle what aspect of the matter; with opinions

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 05/24/2014 11:26 AM, edward wrote: You mean selectively quoting? I was not aware of misquoting you. I used your very words. Fair enough; I do enjoy the occasional semantic game now an then. I could make a cogent argument how selectively quoting sentence fragments is, necessarily,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread edward
Which bits did you feel were selective, i.e. which parts of your original meaning were changed by quoting sentence fragments? I mean you did actually say that the criticism on WO has led to exposing serious problems that desperately needed fixing. You then followed that up, and here I quote

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Andreas Kolbe
Marc, I am sure you are aware of the discussion here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sue_Gardner#Child_protection Those concerns were raised not by banned trolls, but by members of the English Wikipedia's arbitration committee, and other users with advanced permissions. They were

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Wil Sinclair
So perhaps you can understand why you emerging from WO with questions about child protection rang all sort of alarm bells. You didn't look like you were genuinely curious but as though you were simply aping one of their calls for war. Coming from most anyone else, it'd have been dismissed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Newyorkbrad
I've participated from time to time in Wikipediocracy and its predecessor Wikipedia Review, and I've kept an eye on discussions there even when I haven't been participating. At times I've gained useful insights and information from things posted on those sites. In particular, they have been a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Pete Forsyth
On May 24, 2014 12:18 PM, Newyorkbrad newyorkb...@gmail.com wrote: I can't say whether it's a good idea or not for Wil to participate on Wikipediocracy, but I don't agree with those who've opined it reflects badly on him to do so, and I certainly don't agree with those who suggest it reflects

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread David Gerard
On 24 May 2014 22:21, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: On May 24, 2014 12:18 PM, Newyorkbrad newyorkb...@gmail.com wrote: I can't say whether it's a good idea or not for Wil to participate on Wikipediocracy, but I don't agree with those who've opined it reflects badly on him to do

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 10:33 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I'll express it. I think it does. It's a festering pit of spammers, trolls and nutters, and is a net negative in just about every way. en:wp arbitrators coming here and talking about Wikipediocracy as if they're their

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Russavia
Andreas And he's not the only Wikimedia admin to participate on WO incognito. That in itself is food for thought. And therein lies the problem. In 28byte's case he actively attacked myself and another editor on WO forums on an issue in which I wasn't involved, and then proceded to close an

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 11:33 PM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.comwrote: Andreas And he's not the only Wikimedia admin to participate on WO incognito. That in itself is food for thought. And therein lies the problem. In 28byte's case he actively attacked myself and another editor

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Wil Sinclair
I don't know about any specific incidents Newyorkbrad has referred to below, but I generally agree with his characterization of the site. I've told them exactly what I think of the nature of some discourse there when I started this thread: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13t=4527.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-24 Thread Wil Sinclair
Wil, I've been here ten years and I can't usefully answer your question what's going on? in a sentence (or a paragraph or an essay). You can only learn by participating. You can learn some things by reading all the justifiably-banned users have to say, but I'm not sure they're things that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Wil Sinclair
OK, can you explain why you participate on Wikipediocracy? Thanks, Edward! I was starting to worry that no one would ask. I participate on WO because I think every voice deserves to be heard. And I will go wherever people feel comfortable speaking freely to hear them. Some of us feel

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Leigh Thelmadatter
Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 16:06:32 -0700 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy OK, can you explain why you participate on Wikipediocracy? Thanks, Edward! I was starting to worry that no one would ask. I participate on WO because I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)
Wil Sinclair, 24/05/2014 01:06: If you're concerned about whether I'm getting accurate information, Not really. Generally people are concerned about a) giving legitimacy to an organised group for consensus manipulation, ad hominem attacks and harassment of wikimedian; 2) getting distracted by

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread David Gerard
On 24 May 2014 00:24, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Not really. Generally people are concerned about a) giving legitimacy to an organised group for consensus manipulation, ad hominem attacks and harassment of wikimedian; 2) getting distracted by hypothetically legitimate but

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Steven Walling
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Thanks, Edward! I was starting to worry that no one would ask. I participate on WO because I think every voice deserves to be heard. And I will go wherever people feel comfortable speaking freely to hear them. Some of us feel

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Wil Sinclair
Not really. Generally people are concerned about a) giving legitimacy to an organised group for consensus manipulation, ad hominem attacks and harassment of wikimedian; 2) getting distracted by hypothetically legitimate but secondary or irrelevant issues. Nemo Hi Nemo, thanks for the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Nathan
I'm not against anyone participating in any site that criticizes or mocks Wikipedia or the WMF. But I do get the sense that Wil is jumping into his wife's new territory with both feet, and not necessarily taking the ginger approach to the most controversial issues that have confronted the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Wil Sinclair
I figure since you're new it bears repeating: Wikipediocracy isn't really the go-to general purpose discussion forum for Wikipedia. Wikipedia itself is the place contributors in good standing talk about the future of the project. Wikipediocracy is where people go to gossip and troll,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread geni
On 24 May 2014 00:06, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: OK, can you explain why you participate on Wikipediocracy? Thanks, Edward! I was starting to worry that no one would ask. Doesn't it strike you as odd that the question came from an active wikipediocracy memeber? I participate on WO

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Wil Sinclair
I'm not against anyone participating in any site that criticizes or mocks Wikipedia or the WMF. But I do get the sense that Wil is jumping into his wife's new territory with both feet, and not necessarily taking the ginger approach to the most controversial issues that have confronted the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Wil Sinclair
Doesn't it strike you as odd that the question came from an active wikipediocracy memeber? Honestly, I hadn't thought about it. I'm much more interested in the question that who asked it. You know where 4chan is I assume. No, actually. Can you tell me? What is it? Again you cite free

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Risker
Well, Wil, I caught your early posts there and was of the impression you joined to protect the privacy of a member of your family. And out of respect for that I declined to ask the question you seemed to be begging to be asked. You wouldn't be the first Wikimedian who felt that was a necessary

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread MZMcBride
Wil Sinclair wrote: I'm not against anyone participating in any site that criticizes or mocks Wikipedia or the WMF. But I do get the sense that Wil is jumping into his wife's new territory with both feet, and not necessarily taking the ginger approach to the most controversial issues that have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 05/23/2014 07:06 PM, Wil Sinclair wrote: I participate on WO because I think every voice deserves to be heard. I'm going to give you a serious piece of advice here as someone who has held one of the most public position of authority on the English Wikipedia (the scare quotes are quite on

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Wil Sinclair
I'm going to give you a serious piece of advice here as someone who has held one of the most public position of authority on the English Wikipedia (the scare quotes are quite on purpose, ask me about them some day). Thanks. I appreciate any advice. Wikipedia Review and its successor WO are

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Participating on Wikipediocracy

2014-05-23 Thread Wil Sinclair
From the interactions I've observed, you (Wil) are too smart to be doing what you're doing, which makes some of your behavior all the more worrying. Thanks! You're willfully ignoring the consequences (real and potential) of your actions. I'm worried about what it says when you have 18 posts