Re: [Wikimedia-l] Questions about proposed new Chapter agreement for Wikimedia Portugal

[Frans Grijzenhout]

Hi Gonçalo, It might also be useful to compare the new proposed Chapter
Agreement with a few existing Agreements from other chapters. Might give
you a better insight in the proposed changes and also provide you with some
alternative formulations. You can find ours here:
https://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Chapter_agreement.pdf

I will also ask the moderator on the session on bylaws during the Board
Member Training if he can pay some attention to the Chapter Agreement as
well.
Regards, Frans


*Frans Grijzenhout*, voorzitter / chair
+31 6 5333 9499
-- 
*Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland*
Mariaplaats 3  -  3511 LH Utrecht
Kamer van Koophandel 17189036
http://www.wikimedia.nl/


Op di 29 jan. 2019 om 14:22 schreef GoEthe.wiki :

> Hi,
>
> Thank you all for the insightful and reassuring responses.
> WMF agreed to extend our current chapter agreement for a couple of months
> so that we have more time to go over the details and ask questions, and
> discuss it with the membership of the chapter.
> Cheers,
>
> Gonçalo Themudo
>
> *Presidente*
> *Wikimedia Portugal*
> *Email: *goethe.w...@gmail.com
> *Website: *http://pt.wikimedia.org 
> *Imagine um mundo onde cada ser humano pode partilhar livremente a soma de
> todo o conhecimento, na sua própria língua.*
>
>
>
> GoEthe.wiki  escreveu no dia segunda, 28/01/2019
> à(s) 01:58:
>
> > (sorry for cross-posting, but since this is a time sensitive issue, I
> > would like to get as many comments as possible)
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Last 30 October, the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) decided it needed more
> > time to evaluate the case of Wikimedia Portugal, it extended the
> suspension
> > of Wikimedia Portugal, and said that they must use the time that would
> > otherwise be the termination period for the Chapter Agreement between
> > Wikimedia Portugal and the Wikimedia Foundation, therefore giving notice
> of
> > termination of the Chapter Agreement. WMF also said that if Wikimedia
> > Portugal fully and completely resolved the issues described above and
> > otherwise remained compliant with its obligations as a chapter - which
> > happened, and the suspension was lifted - then WMF would sign a new
> chapter
> > agreement with Wikimedia Portugal. The current chapter agreement
> therefore
> > terminates this 31 January. On 25 January WMF sent us a new proposal of
> > Chapter Agreement for Wikimedia Portugal to sign. It can be seen here,
> side
> > by side with the current Chapter Agreement Wikimedia Portugal has with
> the
> > WMF:
> >
> > https://pt.wikimedia.org/wiki/Utilizador:Alchimista/Chapter_Agreement
> >
> > This new proposal differs in many ways from the Chapter Agreement
> > currently in place, and from the ones other chapters have signed (at
> least
> > the ones that are public) and we have several questions about it, so we
> > would like to ask the Wikimedia Portugal associates, other affiliates and
> > the Wikimedia community in general to help us by clarifying some of these
> > questions and weigh in on the advantages and disadvantages of continuing
> > being a WMF affiliate under these changed conditions.
> >
> > We have also accordingly asked from the WMF a two month extension of the
> > current Chapter Agreement, to allow for proper discussion of their
> proposal.
> >
> >
> > Main concerns:
> >
> > These are some of the main differences we found that are concerning us
> > (first in italic the current agreement, second in bold the new proposal)
> >
> >-
> >
> >“This Chapter is authorized to cover the geographic region of the
> >Portugal. The Foundation will not seek to create or authorize the
> creation
> >of any additional chapter within this geographic region. The
> Foundation
> >will not engage with other local organizations without consulting
> with the
> >chapter.” (Current CA) disappears entirely, and becomes “WMF hereby
> >recognizes Chapter as part of the Wikimedia movement supporting its
> Focus
> >Area.” (i.e. Portugal)
> >-
> >
> >Chapter shall do business as “Wikimedia Portugal, an independent
> >organization for Wikimedia volunteers in Portugal”, irrespective of
> its
> >locally incorporated name. - this seems unique among chapters, and in
> >our view conflicts  with the possibility of affiliates including both
> >volunteers and professionals, as well as both Wikimedians and people
> >otherwise engaged and interested in programs, such as teachers,
> librarians
> >and museologists.  The tagline also seems cumbersome, awkward and we
> don’t
> >understand its purpose.
> >
> >
> >-
> >
> >The Foundation agrees to support the activities of the Chapter and to
> >not engage in any activity that might negatively impact the work or
> image
> >of the Chapter.  (This disappears in the current proposed agreement)
> >-
> >
> >Exhibit B, 2. Approved use: Use of trademarks seems to be limited to
> >the geographic space of 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Questions about proposed new Chapter agreement for Wikimedia Portugal

[GoEthe.wiki]

Hi,

Thank you all for the insightful and reassuring responses.
WMF agreed to extend our current chapter agreement for a couple of months
so that we have more time to go over the details and ask questions, and
discuss it with the membership of the chapter.
Cheers,

Gonçalo Themudo

*Presidente*
*Wikimedia Portugal*
*Email: *goethe.w...@gmail.com
*Website: *http://pt.wikimedia.org 
*Imagine um mundo onde cada ser humano pode partilhar livremente a soma de
todo o conhecimento, na sua própria língua.*



GoEthe.wiki  escreveu no dia segunda, 28/01/2019
à(s) 01:58:

> (sorry for cross-posting, but since this is a time sensitive issue, I
> would like to get as many comments as possible)
>
> Dear all,
>
> Last 30 October, the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) decided it needed more
> time to evaluate the case of Wikimedia Portugal, it extended the suspension
> of Wikimedia Portugal, and said that they must use the time that would
> otherwise be the termination period for the Chapter Agreement between
> Wikimedia Portugal and the Wikimedia Foundation, therefore giving notice of
> termination of the Chapter Agreement. WMF also said that if Wikimedia
> Portugal fully and completely resolved the issues described above and
> otherwise remained compliant with its obligations as a chapter - which
> happened, and the suspension was lifted - then WMF would sign a new chapter
> agreement with Wikimedia Portugal. The current chapter agreement therefore
> terminates this 31 January. On 25 January WMF sent us a new proposal of
> Chapter Agreement for Wikimedia Portugal to sign. It can be seen here, side
> by side with the current Chapter Agreement Wikimedia Portugal has with the
> WMF:
>
> https://pt.wikimedia.org/wiki/Utilizador:Alchimista/Chapter_Agreement
>
> This new proposal differs in many ways from the Chapter Agreement
> currently in place, and from the ones other chapters have signed (at least
> the ones that are public) and we have several questions about it, so we
> would like to ask the Wikimedia Portugal associates, other affiliates and
> the Wikimedia community in general to help us by clarifying some of these
> questions and weigh in on the advantages and disadvantages of continuing
> being a WMF affiliate under these changed conditions.
>
> We have also accordingly asked from the WMF a two month extension of the
> current Chapter Agreement, to allow for proper discussion of their proposal.
>
>
> Main concerns:
>
> These are some of the main differences we found that are concerning us
> (first in italic the current agreement, second in bold the new proposal)
>
>-
>
>“This Chapter is authorized to cover the geographic region of the
>Portugal. The Foundation will not seek to create or authorize the creation
>of any additional chapter within this geographic region. The Foundation
>will not engage with other local organizations without consulting with the
>chapter.” (Current CA) disappears entirely, and becomes “WMF hereby
>recognizes Chapter as part of the Wikimedia movement supporting its Focus
>Area.” (i.e. Portugal)
>-
>
>Chapter shall do business as “Wikimedia Portugal, an independent
>organization for Wikimedia volunteers in Portugal”, irrespective of its
>locally incorporated name. - this seems unique among chapters, and in
>our view conflicts  with the possibility of affiliates including both
>volunteers and professionals, as well as both Wikimedians and people
>otherwise engaged and interested in programs, such as teachers, librarians
>and museologists.  The tagline also seems cumbersome, awkward and we don’t
>understand its purpose.
>
>
>-
>
>The Foundation agrees to support the activities of the Chapter and to
>not engage in any activity that might negatively impact the work or image
>of the Chapter.  (This disappears in the current proposed agreement)
>-
>
>Exhibit B, 2. Approved use: Use of trademarks seems to be limited to
>the geographic space of Portugal: “with respect to Chapter’s
>activities in Portugal”. Does this mean that use in events, activities
>and partnerships involving other countries (Wikimedia España, other
>Iberocoop members, etc) requires a special authorization beforehand?
>-
>
>Exhibit B, 2. Approved use: “Promotion material that is not intended
>for Wikimedia outreach activities or community-focused events as defined in
>the Wikimedia Trademark Policy (which may be found at <
>https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Trademark_policy >) are not
>approved under this License and would require specific approval under
>Section 3 below.” This one is a bit convoluted and even within our
>group we have different understanding of what this means. Many of our
>present and past activities include GLAM partnerships, photo contests, and
>conferences not in “WikiCon” style. By following the link for the Trademark
>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Questions about proposed new Chapter agreement for Wikimedia Portugal

[effe iets anders]

Hi Gonçalo,

Thanks for sharing. I share most of your concerns, reading your explanation
- and they seem reasonable. I find it particularly odd that such major
changes are forced upon the chapter in this situation. If these changes are
necessary, it would be better to discuss them in a global context, and
renew all chapters agreements - not by doing it whenever convenient. This
way the chapters get on unequal footing, and confusion is bound to arise
who has which permissions.

I'm less concerned about the reporting etc, but mostly concerned about the
conditions that reduce the effectiveness of the chapter. The tagline is, if
indeed meaning what you think it does, wholly impractical and something I
remember fighting several years back in the time of Mike Godwin as legal
counsel (yeah, quite a while back). It's a returning theme: it would be
more convenient for the WMF to have chapters put all these restrictions on
themselves, but it makes the work of the chapters less effective.

My big question here is always: how can we best leverage the work of
volunteers. How can we make sure that we use the efforts and resources that
chapters collect - and I'm mostly talking about relationships, goodwill and
volunteer time - to their fullest extent for our joint mission. The
bureaucracy of trademarks and agreements that we create should be there to
serve that mission.

I don't have immediate answers for you because I'm no legal expert and
don't have the time or background to read up on everything this touches on.
I realize that I'm rushing to conclusions probably on limited information.
But this should imho be the compass, and I hope that the WMF can use the
same. Even if that means it is inconvenient.

Best,
Lodewijk

On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 5:18 PM Pine W  wrote:

> Hi Gonçalo,
>
> I have limited familiarity with the situation with Wikimedia Portugal, but
> I am glad that there seems to be some movement on a path forward here.
>
> I have had similar questions about WMF trademarks in the past. My quick
> read of the trademark provisions that you included in your email is that
> they may need clarification but I don't think of them as being "red flags"
> that should stop progress.
>
> I don't know what WMF's legal research has revealed regarding WMPT's
> situation. My guess is that WMF is being understandably cautious about WMPT
> until WMF has greater certainty about WMPT's governance. You could ask WMF
> to explain why it made the proposal that it did.
>
> I understand the concern about annual governance reviews. I would support
> WMF providing sufficient (not lavish, but sufficient) grant funding for
> WMPT to hire a contractor to perform the governance reviews that WMF wants.
>
> Overall, I think that your concerns and questions are good and should be
> discussed between WMPT, WMF Legal, and Affcom. I understand why you would
> make these questions public and request input from the wider community.
> Personally, I do not see "red flags" in the language that you quoted, and I
> am glad to see that there seems to be some positive steps happening with
> regards to the situation between WMPT, WMF, and Affcom. WMPT might consider
> asking WMF for more favorable terms for the chapter agreement after a
> period of time, perhaps six months to a few years, if WMPT seems to be
> progressing in a good direction over that longer period of time. In the
> time between now and January 31, I think that you are asking good questions
> but I would not consider these issues to be "red flags" in the short term.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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