Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Emmanuel Engelhart]

Le 21/11/2013 04:26, Erik Moeller a écrit :
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Tim Starling  wrote:
>> Sure, but you can't undo it, once it is done. Maybe it was stupid to
>> take on this responsibility, but deleting the site is not an ethical
>> way to rectify the mistake.
> 
> If you _really really_ want to take this on, please consider just
> creating a static HTML dump without the MediaWiki skin in a
> subdirectory of dumps.wm.o (mebbe
> http://dumps.wikimedia.org/other/static_html_dumps/ ), with robots.txt
> rules to allow for indexing, rather than returning it to its previous
> undead status.

Makes sense to me. If this exist. This will be trivial to create the
corresponding ZIM file, serve it online, and make it easy to share. I
could build the ZIM file make it available online (file + version to surf).

Emmanuel
-- 
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* more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Srikanth Ramakrishnan]

Personally I think it is unfair for one incident ti have a wiki and not
others. It will someday open a huge Pandora's box.

Sent from the touchscreen equivalent of a Nokia 1100, pardon the sender.
--
Srikanth Ramakrishnan,
Treasurer.
On Nov 21, 2013 6:08 AM, "MZMcBride"  wrote:

> Tim Starling wrote:
> >https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sep11wiki
> >
> >I think it's disrespectful to solicit contributions towards a memorial
> >website, and then to fail to maintain that memorial website in a
> >searchable format.
>
> I think there's general agreement that setting up this wiki was a mistake.
> This isn't said out of callousness or indifference, it's just the
> historical reality. Wikipedia was only eight months old when these attacks
> took place. No subsequent major world event (e.g., the 2004 Indian Ocean
> earthquake and tsunami) has had its own Wikimedia memorial wiki
> established and it's very unlikely that we would ever set up another.
>
> >The data is still on our servers. I propose bringing the wiki back up,
> >in read only mode, and leaving it like that either until such time as
> >there is interest from a non-profit or government organisation in
> >taking over the responsibility of indefinite hosting.
>
> We provide a dump of the September 11 wiki's contents here:
> . Memorial sites,
> while depressing and touching, are completely outside the scope of
> Wikimedia's mission. I don't believe Wikimedia has an obligation, moral
> or otherwise, to host this content in an Internet searchable format in
> perpetuity. Anyone, including non-profits and government organizations,
> can use the dump we provide as they see fit. Deciding to host this site
> again would be a mistake and one that we happen to have already made once.
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[MZMcBride]

Tim Starling wrote:
>On 21/11/13 11:38, MZMcBride wrote:
>> 
>>No subsequent major world event (e.g., the 2004 Indian Ocean
>> earthquake and tsunami) has had its own Wikimedia memorial wiki
>> established and it's very unlikely that we would ever set up another.
>
>Sure, but you can't undo it, once it is done. Maybe it was stupid to
>take on this responsibility, but deleting the site is not an ethical
>way to rectify the mistake.

Your comments reminded me of one of my favorite quotes (immortalized as a
quip in our Bugzilla installation at ):
"creating a wiki is like creating a baby: yes you should have a good
reason to create one, but if you don't for whatever reason, you should
have an _extra_ good reason for killing one." :-)

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[MZMcBride]

Erik Moeller wrote:
>On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Tim Starling 
>wrote:
>> Sure, but you can't undo it, once it is done. Maybe it was stupid to
>> take on this responsibility, but deleting the site is not an ethical
>> way to rectify the mistake.
>
>If you _really really_ want to take this on, please consider just
>creating a static HTML dump without the MediaWiki skin in a
>subdirectory of dumps.wm.o (mebbe
>http://dumps.wikimedia.org/other/static_html_dumps/ ), with robots.txt
>rules to allow for indexing, rather than returning it to its previous
>undead status.

Yes, this.

BTW, . ;-)

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Victor Grigas]

Tim,

You could start an indiegogo or a kickstarter campaign for this. I'm sure
you'd find funding and volunteers to keep it online. There is also a museum
on the ground zero site that you may want to get in touch with about such
an effort : http://www.911memorial.org/  They may be interested in telling
the story of the Sept11wiki, and possibly keeping it online.

When WP was new and still finding it's character, such efforts like what
you propose were not outside WP's potential scope. I just don't feel that
WP is the place for it currently or in the future.




On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 9:55 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> 2013/11/21 Nathan 
>
> > I think it would be better to reformulate it into book format and make it
> > available as an e-book, for free download either directly from Wikimedia
> or
> > other outlets like iTunes or Amazon. That would be searchable, and I
> don't
> > know that hosting it in wiki form provides any benefits. Certainly as a
> > wiki it will never be rescued from permanent obscurity.
> >
>
> I think that would be the best. I am sure many people could easily offer a
> copy that way.
>
> Regards,
>
> Yann
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>



-- 

*Victor Grigas*
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Wikimedia Foundation
vgri...@wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Yann Forget]

Hello,

2013/11/21 Nathan 

> I think it would be better to reformulate it into book format and make it
> available as an e-book, for free download either directly from Wikimedia or
> other outlets like iTunes or Amazon. That would be searchable, and I don't
> know that hosting it in wiki form provides any benefits. Certainly as a
> wiki it will never be rescued from permanent obscurity.
>

I think that would be the best. I am sure many people could easily offer a
copy that way.

Regards,

Yann
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Erik Moeller]

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Tim Starling  wrote:
> Sure, but you can't undo it, once it is done. Maybe it was stupid to
> take on this responsibility, but deleting the site is not an ethical
> way to rectify the mistake.

If you _really really_ want to take this on, please consider just
creating a static HTML dump without the MediaWiki skin in a
subdirectory of dumps.wm.o (mebbe
http://dumps.wikimedia.org/other/static_html_dumps/ ), with robots.txt
rules to allow for indexing, rather than returning it to its previous
undead status.
-- 
Erik Möller
VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Tim Starling]

On 21/11/13 11:38, MZMcBride wrote:
> Tim Starling wrote:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sep11wiki
>>
>> I think it's disrespectful to solicit contributions towards a memorial
>> website, and then to fail to maintain that memorial website in a
>> searchable format.
> 
> I think there's general agreement that setting up this wiki was a mistake.
> This isn't said out of callousness or indifference, it's just the
> historical reality. Wikipedia was only eight months old when these attacks
> took place. No subsequent major world event (e.g., the 2004 Indian Ocean
> earthquake and tsunami) has had its own Wikimedia memorial wiki
> established and it's very unlikely that we would ever set up another.

Sure, but you can't undo it, once it is done. Maybe it was stupid to
take on this responsibility, but deleting the site is not an ethical
way to rectify the mistake.

-- Tim Starling



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Tim Starling]

On 21/11/13 12:23, Matthew Flaschen wrote:
> On 11/20/2013 07:09 PM, Tim Starling wrote:
>> In 2007, the September 11 wiki was moved to a non-Wikimedia site,
>> evidently hosted by an individual without the capacity to preserve
>> that content for posterity. It was offline after only 3 years.
> 
> It is still accessible at the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine
> (http://wayback.archive.org/web/20060111221201/http://sep11.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page)
> (if I try a later year, it seems to redirect to sep11memories.org).

I'm aware of that.

> Considering it will not be opened for editing again, that and the
> dumps should be enough.

I explained why I don't think it is enough. It is not searchable and
thus not discoverable for the few people in the world who might
actually care about it. There's no point in having it if it's not
discoverable.

-- Tim Starling



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Thehelpfulone]

> On 21 Nov 2013, at 00:52, Erik Moeller  wrote:
> 
> +1. sep11.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo already redirects to the IA copy, as
> well. Anything else is a distraction and a waste of time, sorry.

Perhaps it would be worth fixing the mobile redirect for the wiki, currently it 
doesn't seem to work/exist?

--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 11/20/2013 07:09 PM, Tim Starling wrote:

In 2007, the September 11 wiki was moved to a non-Wikimedia site,
evidently hosted by an individual without the capacity to preserve
that content for posterity. It was offline after only 3 years.


It is still accessible at the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine 
(http://wayback.archive.org/web/20060111221201/http://sep11.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) 
(if I try a later year, it seems to redirect to sep11memories.org).


Considering it will not be opened for editing again, that and the dumps 
should be enough.


Matt Flaschen


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Erik Moeller]

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 4:38 PM, MZMcBride  wrote:
> We provide a dump of the September 11 wiki's contents here:
> . Memorial sites,
> while depressing and touching, are completely outside the scope of
> Wikimedia's mission. I don't believe Wikimedia has an obligation, moral
> or otherwise, to host this content in an Internet searchable format in
> perpetuity. Anyone, including non-profits and government organizations,
> can use the dump we provide as they see fit. Deciding to host this site
> again would be a mistake and one that we happen to have already made once.

+1. sep11.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo already redirects to the IA copy, as
well. Anything else is a distraction and a waste of time, sorry.

Erik
-- 
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VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[MZMcBride]

Tim Starling wrote:
>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sep11wiki
>
>I think it's disrespectful to solicit contributions towards a memorial
>website, and then to fail to maintain that memorial website in a
>searchable format.

I think there's general agreement that setting up this wiki was a mistake.
This isn't said out of callousness or indifference, it's just the
historical reality. Wikipedia was only eight months old when these attacks
took place. No subsequent major world event (e.g., the 2004 Indian Ocean
earthquake and tsunami) has had its own Wikimedia memorial wiki
established and it's very unlikely that we would ever set up another.

>The data is still on our servers. I propose bringing the wiki back up,
>in read only mode, and leaving it like that either until such time as
>there is interest from a non-profit or government organisation in
>taking over the responsibility of indefinite hosting.

We provide a dump of the September 11 wiki's contents here:
. Memorial sites,
while depressing and touching, are completely outside the scope of
Wikimedia's mission. I don't believe Wikimedia has an obligation, moral
or otherwise, to host this content in an Internet searchable format in
perpetuity. Anyone, including non-profits and government organizations,
can use the dump we provide as they see fit. Deciding to host this site
again would be a mistake and one that we happen to have already made once.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] September 11 wiki

[Nathan]

I think it would be better to reformulate it into book format and make it
available as an e-book, for free download either directly from Wikimedia or
other outlets like iTunes or Amazon. That would be searchable, and I don't
know that hosting it in wiki form provides any benefits. Certainly as a
wiki it will never be rescued from permanent obscurity.


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Tim Starling wrote:

> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sep11wiki
>
> I think it's disrespectful to solicit contributions towards a memorial
> website, and then to fail to maintain that memorial website in a
> searchable format.
>
> Today, searching the web for phrases in contributed memorial pages
> brings up only ancient, presumably unmaintained Wikipedia mirrors,
> such as these:
>
> http://encyclopedia.kids.net.au/page/da/Daniel_Brandhorst
> http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Daniel_Brandhorst/
>
> In time, those will disappear from the web, as all other copies have
> done. Thus, relatives of the deceased will have no way to discover
> that these pages ever existed.
>
> In 2007, the September 11 wiki was moved to a non-Wikimedia site,
> evidently hosted by an individual without the capacity to preserve
> that content for posterity. It was offline after only 3 years.
>
> The data is still on our servers. I propose bringing the wiki back up,
> in read only mode, and leaving it like that either until such time as
> there is interest from a non-profit or government organisation in
> taking over the responsibility of indefinite hosting. It would only
> take an hour or so of ops work. It could stay like that for decades
> without needing any further maintenance.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
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