Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-05-13 Thread Erik Moeller
On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 5:54 AM Фархад Фаткуллин / Farhad Fatkullin wrote: > I feel I can give a relatively neutral comment on the part quoted below. Dear Farhad, Thanks so much for sharing your observations re: https://ru.wikinews.org/ . I'm glad to hear that the project is publishing on a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-05-10 Thread Фархад Фаткуллин / Farhad Fatkullin
I feel I can give a relatively neutral comment on the part quoted below. Disclosure: I am a citizen of Russia, residing within the country & speaking Russian, but mainly contributing to Tatar Wikipedia, member of WMRU & WUG TAT. Global Russian-speaking Wikimedia community has mixed feelings

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Benjamin Ikuta
> On Apr 27, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Strainu wrote: > > They might just as well employ a bunch of journalists to write > articles, it won't make it a successful project. > That certainly wouldn't be the worst use of funds... ___ Wikimedia-l mailing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Strainu
Pe sâmbătă, 27 aprilie 2019, Jennifer Pryor-Summers < jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> a scris: > Strainu, > > Simply leaving the world of news to others is not really an option for the > Foundation. The foundation doesn't really have a say in this. They might push really hard for a wiki, but

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread David Gerard
I seem to recall seeing a thread on this list every few years about how to revive Wikinews and make it do something useful and interesting. In practice, it had a burst of enthusiasm for about six months after it started and then went pretty much dormant, and has been there ever since. - d. On

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Philippe Beaudette
But it won’t be. Wikipedia does a fine job of documenting a great deal of news: in an encyclopedic fashion. On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 11:48 AM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote: > Strainu, > > Simply leaving the world of news to others is not really an option for the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Jennifer Pryor-Summers
Strainu, Simply leaving the world of news to others is not really an option for the Foundation. Recall that its vision is that > By 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge, and anyone who shares our vision will be able to join us. It can't

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Strainu
În mar., 16 apr. 2019 la 12:38, Dan Garry (Deskana) a scris: > > Splitting off the Wikinews discussion from the branding discussion... > > On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 at 07:52, Jennifer Pryor-Summers < > jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Compared to Wikitribune it is! But more importantly,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Peter Southwood
Of Jennifer Pryor-Summers Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2019 1:15 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals] Yaroslav I think you have identified an important point -- I hestitate to call it a problem -- about Commons

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Now that the Wikidatafication of Commons allows for "depicts", there is plenty to do. It will make it easier to find what is on Commons, it will hugely increase the relevance of Commons beyond the Wikimedia Foundation and within, it allows people to find illustrations in their own language

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Dennis During
It would be nice if more Commons images HAD proper location and context info. As it is experts are often needed to identify meaningful content and categories. Those tasks are not the equivalent of minor copyediting, not that proofreading is a minor matter. IOW, Commons *needs* more collaborative

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Ziko van Dijk
That is an excellent point, Jennifer! This problem makes collaboration on Commons even more difficult or unlikely. The photographer sometimes has an unique access to the part of the world he described with a picture. Often on Commons we simply ask the photographer: 'where did you take the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Yes indeed, Wikimedia Commons sees not much of collaboration in that sense. The collaboration on Commons is of an insular kind: people don't (much) edit other people's work, but they together contribute to the whole wiki. Different is collaboration where several people edit the same content and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Jennifer Pryor-Summers
Yaroslav I think you have identified an important point -- I hestitate to call it a problem -- about Commons. We are dependent on the authority of the uploader of an image, say, to say what it is an image of. If they say it is a certain locality, or object, we have to take their word for it (or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Yaroslav Blanter
Hi Ziko, you could then argue that Commons is also not a collaborative project - only one person takes a picture (determines the story, the position, light etc), and others can at best perform some editing or add/remove categories. Cheers Yaroslav On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 11:29 AM Ziko van Dijk

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-27 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Hello Philippe, Thank you for your points to which I generally can agree. Because this is an important matter to my, allow me to explain what I exactly mean. Of course, there are several tasks or layers where people can (and do) collaborate when working on journalistic content. But there is an

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-26 Thread Joseph Seddon
What are the examples of successful citizen news websites? What could we learn from them? On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 5:15 PM Ziko van Dijk wrote: > Hello, > > One of the central problems of Wikinews is that the content is not > suitable for collaboration. > > Content suitable for collaboration

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-26 Thread Philippe Beaudette
(Hit send too early).To my mind the larger problem is that the content becomes static over time, Rather than growing and evolving as it does with many of our more successful Projects. On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:25 AM Philippe Beaudette wrote: > Respectfully Disagree. They can formulate

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-26 Thread Philippe Beaudette
Respectfully Disagree. They can formulate questions, coordinate and fact check answers... and that’s off the top of my head. That said I think wikinews is fundamentally not one is our success stories, but I don’t agree with what my friend Ziko said there. There are many roles for community there.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-26 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Hello, One of the central problems of Wikinews is that the content is not suitable for collaboration. Content suitable for collaboration is related to a reality to which the collaborators equally have access. Think if an encyclopedia based on scholarly literature that (potentially) everybody can

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-25 Thread Philippe Beaudette
The very smart Mr. Lih sayeth: I have been a fan of the times Wikinews did original interviews with notable folks [1] so this is perhaps a sustainable niche. But as a direct news wire competitor to AP, Reuters or AFP, no. [1]

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-25 Thread Peter Southwood
Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals] Peter Our brand is already on it in these cases, and yes it would be sending a > message - "We want you to risk your time and effort on our projects but we > may later decide to discard everything you worked for" > I d

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-19 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 at 16:48, Paulo Santos Perneta wrote: > > Sad memories of Orkut, Panoramio, and all the unvaluable repositories of > online knowledge that have been completely destroyed in the recent past, > because they were doomed as uncompetitive by big corporations as Google. I >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-19 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
---Original Message- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Jennifer Pryor-Summers > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:19 PM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand > syst

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-19 Thread Jennifer Pryor-Summers
Gerard, Not everything works out -- that's the way of the world. Your argument would imply that no project that had ever attracted anyone's time and effort could ever be discontinued. That is unsustainable. The WMF has limited resources and quite properly has to decide on priorities for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-19 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, "your time and effort" is for those other people to waste. It is for them to decide what value they derive from spending it in this way. "our donations", donations is what donors offer. Once they have donated, it becomes the money of the Wikimedia Foundation. It is not our donations, it is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-18 Thread Jennifer Pryor-Summers
Peter Our brand is already on it in these cases, and yes it would be sending a > message - "We want you to risk your time and effort on our projects but we > may later decide to discard everything you worked for" > I don;t think "discard" is right. The message would be "... but if it doesn't

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-18 Thread Vi to
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand > system for our 2030 goals] > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 15:31, Peter Southwood > wrote: > > > Abandoning a project and shutting it down sends a message to all > vol

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-18 Thread Peter Southwood
Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals] On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 15:31, Peter Southwood wrote: > Abandoning a project and shutting it down sends a message to all volunteers > that their work could be similarly abandoned and lost one day. For some value of "lost&quo

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-18 Thread Peter Southwood
dia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Pryor-Summers Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:19 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals] Peter Putting your brand on a project that is visibly failing also

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-18 Thread Jennifer Pryor-Summers
Dan I've not seen any proposals involving shutting down projects without > community involvement, so hopefully you shouldn't need to worry about this. > The problem with failing projects like Wikinews and Wikiversity is that there is not a critical mass in their community. I wouldn't go so far

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-17 Thread Andrew Lih
On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 12:24 PM Samuel Klein wrote: > I see no reason to shut down projects, nor to tell participants to stop > collaborating on X in the spirit of a Wiki. > Unfortunately, in theory, projects in zombie mode should not pose a problem on their own. In practice, they do affect

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-17 Thread Yaroslav Blanter
My understanding is that this is exactly what we are discussing now. In the scenario proposed by Asaf there is a vote (RfC) in which keep votes of the Wikinews community would go against delete votes by Wikimedia users not interested in keeping Wikinews. Cheers Yaroslav On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-17 Thread Ad Huikeshoven
Shutting down Wikinews is not the only strategic option. Wikinews is now hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. In the future it could be hosted by another organization. For example Wikia. Or maybe the current users start a Wikinews Association or Foundation and will start self hosting. Someone from

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-17 Thread Dan Garry (Deskana)
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 15:41, Yaroslav Blanter wrote: > Indeed, I am not a fan of Wikinews and I do not particularly see the > project as in any way successful. However, if the project is shut down > against the will of the community (I now mean the Wikinews community, or > perhaps even

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-17 Thread Jennifer Pryor-Summers
Of Ziko van Dijk > Sent: 17 April 2019 00:46 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand > system for our 2030 goals] > > Hello, > Some years ago, some volunteers have proposed a new Wikimedia wiki. It did > not turn

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-17 Thread Andy Mabbett
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 15:31, Peter Southwood wrote: > Abandoning a project and shutting it down sends a message to all volunteers > that their work could be similarly abandoned and lost one day. For some value of "lost" - it's likely, in this case, that all the content would be preserved,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-17 Thread Samuel Klein
edia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Ziko van Dijk > > Sent: 17 April 2019 00:46 > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand > > system for our 2030 goals] > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-17 Thread Yaroslav Blanter
t; Cheers, > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Ziko van Dijk > Sent: 17 April 2019 00:46 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand > syste

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-17 Thread Peter Southwood
Yeah, Right. P -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: 16 April 2019 20:38 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-17 Thread Peter Southwood
] On Behalf Of Ziko van Dijk Sent: 17 April 2019 00:46 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals] Hello, Some years ago, some volunteers have proposed a new Wikimedia wiki. It did not turn out as expected. That‘s okay

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-16 Thread Asaf Bartov
(posting in my volunteer capacity) Echoing Andrew's, SJ's, and Ziko's comments, I will add that perhaps all it would take is some collective energy to endorse these long-standing observations, and signal to WMF that we no longer have to pretend Wikinews is a worthwhile model (as SJ, Paulo, and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-16 Thread Andrew Lih
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:23 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote: > Andrew > > It seems to me that you're saying that, on the one hand, the policies that > make Wikipedia work well as an encyclopaedia (NOR, RS, V, NORUSH) are a > poor fit for a news-gathering

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-16 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Hello, Some years ago, some volunteers have proposed a new Wikimedia wiki. It did not turn out as expected. That‘s okay, the movement should try out thing from time to time. But this wiki should not be seen as an eternal obligation to be kept. Kind regards Ziko Samuel Klein schrieb am Di. 16.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-16 Thread Samuel Klein
Jennifer -- as you say, there is a contradiction here in the self-image and internal narrative of the projects and movement. A classic branding issue ;) * On the one hand, we lack clear, consistent language to talk about topical subprojects (what do you call 'the Current Events specialists on the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-16 Thread Jennifer Pryor-Summers
Andrew It seems to me that you're saying that, on the one hand, the policies that make Wikipedia work well as an encyclopaedia (NOR, RS, V, NORUSH) are a poor fit for a news-gathering operation and on the other hand, Wikipedia is a success as a news-gathering operation. These seem inconsistent

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-16 Thread Andrew Lih
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Wikinews may not be doing too well, but (English-language) Wikipedia seems > to have taken up a news-gathering role not entirely consistent with its > encyclopediac mission: perhaps that's the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-16 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
The WMF should not sort out any demarcation issues. In fact, it should not sort out anything at all in the Movement. The WMF is administered by the Movement, and it's main purpose and mission is to serve it, not do dictate anything there. That is a boundary that should never be crossed. Best

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-16 Thread Paulo Santos Perneta
Why is it not consistent? If the event is encyclopedic, it can (and should) be treated by Wikipedia, same way as any other subject. I confess I've never understood the mantra of "Wikipedia is not a source of news", when it may be, indeed, and with great advantage, as it provides *context*, a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]

2019-04-16 Thread Jennifer Pryor-Summers
Dan Wikinews may not be doing too well, but (English-language) Wikipedia seems to have taken up a news-gathering role not entirely consistent with its encyclopediac mission: perhaps that's the reason. Maybe the WMF should sort out the demarcation issues. JPS On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:38 AM