Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-29 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Today it is announced that for maps in Commons, maps that are known in
Wikidata we have now support for "geoshapes". Dan, you indicated nine days
agao that this is not on your road map. But it is there. Could you please
inform us how this can be used in Apple maps?
Thanks,
   GerardM


https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikidata-tech/2017-March/001106.html

On 21 March 2017 at 17:17, Dan Garry  wrote:

> On 21 March 2017 at 14:34, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
> >
> > Technical considerations are imho less relevant. What trumps it is
> > functionality.
>
>
> Technical considerations are very relevant if one is doing something
> technical, for example developing an iOS app or a maps tile service.
>
>
> > Our maps have to be good everywhere and as far as I know OSM
> > is superior in places where there is profit to be made from maps.
>
>
> If you choose to ignore the technical difficulties and half of my earlier
> email, then yes, that may be true.
>
>
> > Current maps world wide and historical maps are what we need. How would
> you
> > use the Apple maps for a map of the Ottoman empire?
> >
>
> Given that our maps service does not support this, and will not any time
> soon, this is very off-topic.
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Lead Product Manager, Discovery
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-22 Thread Peter Southwood
Agreed, the reference does not look reliable for the claim made.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Gergo Tisza
Sent: Wednesday, 22 March 2017 5:54 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs 
Wikipedia iOS app)

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Dan Garry <dga...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> The size of your app can significantly reduce downloads [1].
> [1]: https://segment.com/blog/mobile-app-size-effect-on-downloads/


That article seems super sketchy. They took a 3MB app, increased it to
100MB+, and interpolated the retention changes linearly. They even point
out that the drop in installs was mostly due to negative reviews (since they 
reverted the app size and the installs didn't climb back up) and the reviews 
were mostly along the line of "WTF is this simple calculator app a hundred 
megabytes?".

The Wikipedia app is 39MB and the SDK seems to add one MB per [2] which does 
not sound like a big deal.

[2] https://www.mapbox.com/blog/mapbox-mobile-polylines/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Gergő Tisza
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Dan Garry  wrote:

> The size of your app can significantly reduce downloads [1].
> [1]: https://segment.com/blog/mobile-app-size-effect-on-downloads/


That article seems super sketchy. They took a 3MB app, increased it to
100MB+, and interpolated the retention changes linearly. They even point
out that the drop in installs was mostly due to negative reviews (since
they reverted the app size and the installs didn't climb back up) and the
reviews were mostly along the line of "WTF is this simple calculator app a
hundred megabytes?".

The Wikipedia app is 39MB and the SDK seems to add one MB per [2] which
does not sound like a big deal.

[2] https://www.mapbox.com/blog/mapbox-mobile-polylines/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
Dan,

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:24 PM, you wrote:

>
> Please do not twist my words. I said technical considerations are relevant,
> not that customer needs do not come first. If something is incredibly
> difficult to do, that is factored in to prioritisation, alongside the size
> of the audience and expected impact. That is very basic product management.
>
> Sadly, as is typical with this mailing list, we've now delved into a world
> of hypotheticals, idealisms, and misrepresentations. It would not be a
> productive use of time (and, indeed, donor money) for me to participate
> further in this thread.


That is unfortunate.  I had been hoping to hear an answer to the very
concrete question of why this issue is being raised with the community only
after so much work has been done, rather than before.  I would have thought
that very basic product management would have involved engaging with the
user community at the planning stage, and determining the customer needs of
which you write.  Indeed, I raised that point here ten days ago.  But it
seems that it will have to go unanswered.

"Rogol"
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Strainu


În 21 martie 2017 20:24:49 EET, Dan Garry  a scris:
>On 21 March 2017 at 18:02, Strainu  wrote:
>
>> 2017-03-21 18:17 GMT+02:00 Dan Garry :
>> > On 21 March 2017 at 14:34, Gerard Meijssen
>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Technical considerations are imho less relevant. What trumps it is
>> >> functionality.
>> >
>> >
>> > Technical considerations are very relevant if one is doing
>something
>> > technical, for example developing an iOS app or a maps tile
>service.
>>
>>
>> I wholeheartedly disagree. OSS projects often forget that the
>customer
>> should come first, mostly because of lack of funding. But since WMF's
>> software development is a secondary activity (and a very well funded
>> one IMO), it should not make the same mistake. Spreading free
>> knowledge must come first, technical considerations second.
>>
>
>Please do not twist my words. 

I don't see how is that twisting your words. Gerard said that technical 
considerations should be secondary to functionality and you implied that was 
not possible without explaining why. 

>I said technical considerations are
>relevant,
>not that customer needs do not come first. If something is incredibly
>difficult to do, that is factored in to prioritisation, alongside the
>size
>of the audience and expected impact. That is very basic product
>management.

The wording in the wiki page does not suggest an "incredibly difficult" 
technological issue, but more of a political issue (WMF's mapping efforts are 
in maintenance) and the possibility of minor extra costs for the users (with 
the possibility of improvement over Apple maps clearly listed). That makes this 
list the best place to discuss such issues due to the large and diverse 
audience. 

Strainu 

>
>Sadly, as is typical with this mailing list, we've now delved into a
>world
>of hypotheticals, idealisms, and misrepresentations. It would not be a
>productive use of time (and, indeed, donor money) for me to participate
>further in this thread.
>
>Dan
>
>-- 
>Dan Garry
>Lead Product Manager, Discovery
>Wikimedia Foundation
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-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Leila Zia
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 11:24 AM, Dan Garry  wrote:

>
> Sadly, as is typical with this mailing list, we've now delved into a world
> of hypotheticals, idealisms, and misrepresentations. It would not be a
> productive use of time (and, indeed, donor money) for me to participate
> further in this thread.
>

​Without manually labeling all the comments made on this thread and by
quickly going over it again: What I see is that most of the comments on
this thread are not hypothetical. They are idealistic, but that's the
nature of the work we do (Building Wikimedia projects is idealistic at its
core.). If one conversation doesn't go where you want it to go, please
don't give up on the whole thread. There are many good points raised across
this thread. What's being discussed here is very important.

And of course, I respect how you want to spend your staff time and what you
think is the best use of your time. :)

Best,
Leila​



>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Lead Product Manager, Discovery
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Dan Garry
On 21 March 2017 at 18:02, Strainu  wrote:

> 2017-03-21 18:17 GMT+02:00 Dan Garry :
> > On 21 March 2017 at 14:34, Gerard Meijssen 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Technical considerations are imho less relevant. What trumps it is
> >> functionality.
> >
> >
> > Technical considerations are very relevant if one is doing something
> > technical, for example developing an iOS app or a maps tile service.
>
>
> I wholeheartedly disagree. OSS projects often forget that the customer
> should come first, mostly because of lack of funding. But since WMF's
> software development is a secondary activity (and a very well funded
> one IMO), it should not make the same mistake. Spreading free
> knowledge must come first, technical considerations second.
>

Please do not twist my words. I said technical considerations are relevant,
not that customer needs do not come first. If something is incredibly
difficult to do, that is factored in to prioritisation, alongside the size
of the audience and expected impact. That is very basic product management.

Sadly, as is typical with this mailing list, we've now delved into a world
of hypotheticals, idealisms, and misrepresentations. It would not be a
productive use of time (and, indeed, donor money) for me to participate
further in this thread.

Dan

-- 
Dan Garry
Lead Product Manager, Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Strainu
2017-03-21 18:17 GMT+02:00 Dan Garry :
> On 21 March 2017 at 14:34, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
>>
>> Technical considerations are imho less relevant. What trumps it is
>> functionality.
>
>
> Technical considerations are very relevant if one is doing something
> technical, for example developing an iOS app or a maps tile service.


I wholeheartedly disagree. OSS projects often forget that the customer
should come first, mostly because of lack of funding. But since WMF's
software development is a secondary activity (and a very well funded
one IMO), it should not make the same mistake. Spreading free
knowledge must come first, technical considerations second.

Strainu

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Apple maps do not provide the same maps (not as up to date) as OSM does for
a country like Haiti. That has nothing to do with "ignoring technical
difficulties" but has everything to do with the quality of the service
provided.

When you consider that work IS done on historic maps in an OSM context it
is again you ignoring functionality that you do no offer. The excuse that
"it is not on the cards" is one from your perspective; one where functional
expectations apparently do not have value.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 21 March 2017 at 17:17, Dan Garry  wrote:

> On 21 March 2017 at 14:34, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
> >
> > Technical considerations are imho less relevant. What trumps it is
> > functionality.
>
>
> Technical considerations are very relevant if one is doing something
> technical, for example developing an iOS app or a maps tile service.
>
>
> > Our maps have to be good everywhere and as far as I know OSM
> > is superior in places where there is profit to be made from maps.
>
>
> If you choose to ignore the technical difficulties and half of my earlier
> email, then yes, that may be true.
>
>
> > Current maps world wide and historical maps are what we need. How would
> you
> > use the Apple maps for a map of the Ottoman empire?
> >
>
> Given that our maps service does not support this, and will not any time
> soon, this is very off-topic.
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Lead Product Manager, Discovery
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread John
As a programmer myself I understand that free vs non-free causes more work
for you. However you cannot ignore one of the foundations of the wikimedia
movement because it makes a little more work for you. I honestly don't
understand why you thought that Apple maps would be acceptable at all. You
have both a breach of our privacy policy and a violation of our free
software enforcement policy. Yes using OSM adds work and increases the
download size, but is a valid option. If OSM or other free software wasn't
possible then we might consider non-free  alternatives but that's not the
case.


On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 12:18 PM Dan Garry  wrote:

> On 21 March 2017 at 14:34, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
> >
> > Technical considerations are imho less relevant. What trumps it is
> > functionality.
>
>
> Technical considerations are very relevant if one is doing something
> technical, for example developing an iOS app or a maps tile service.
>
>
> > Our maps have to be good everywhere and as far as I know OSM
> > is superior in places where there is profit to be made from maps.
>
>
> If you choose to ignore the technical difficulties and half of my earlier
> email, then yes, that may be true.
>
>
> > Current maps world wide and historical maps are what we need. How would
> you
> > use the Apple maps for a map of the Ottoman empire?
> >
>
> Given that our maps service does not support this, and will not any time
> soon, this is very off-topic.
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Lead Product Manager, Discovery
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Dan Garry
On 21 March 2017 at 14:32, John  wrote:

> This reminds me of en wiki's non-free policy.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content_criteria#1
> highlights the point fairly clearly Usage of non-free materials is often
> easier and higher quality than using the free equivalent . However
> Wikimedia's mission and goal's are to support and promote free content, yes
> you will need to jump thru a few more hoops and adds a little more work.
> But without those driving factors we will often see the free options wither
> and fail.


In general I do not think attempting to apply English Wikipedia policies to
product development is particularly meaningful, given that writing an
online encyclopaedia is very different from developing software.
Regardless, I do not think there is anyone opposed to this ideological
statement, but as I have explained in my email, ideology and reality
sometimes come in to conflict.

Dan

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Dan Garry
On 21 March 2017 at 14:34, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:
>
> Technical considerations are imho less relevant. What trumps it is
> functionality.


Technical considerations are very relevant if one is doing something
technical, for example developing an iOS app or a maps tile service.


> Our maps have to be good everywhere and as far as I know OSM
> is superior in places where there is profit to be made from maps.


If you choose to ignore the technical difficulties and half of my earlier
email, then yes, that may be true.


> Current maps world wide and historical maps are what we need. How would you
> use the Apple maps for a map of the Ottoman empire?
>

Given that our maps service does not support this, and will not any time
soon, this is very off-topic.

Dan

-- 
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Lead Product Manager, Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Technical considerations are imho less relevant. What trumps it is
functionality. Our maps have to be good everywhere and as far as I know OSM
is superior in places where there is profit to be made from maps.

Current maps world wide and historical maps are what we need. How would you
use the Apple maps for a map of the Ottoman empire?
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 21 March 2017 at 15:22, Dan Garry  wrote:

> Hey Magnus,
>
> There are a few other factors to consider in addition to those listed. For
> example, development cost. Our maps tile service is not compatible with the
> iOS app out of the box. This isn't surprising; Apple wants you to use
> things like Apple Maps rather than your own solution. Android is, by its
> nature, a more open platform, so I am not too surprised that it was easier
> to integrate our tile server into the Android app than the iOS app. Sadly,
> it's not as simple as just switching over to OSM-based tiles; on the
> contrary, it's a significant amount of work.
>
> Now, using our tile service would also have required the iOS app to use the
> MapBox SDK. This is the size of all their other third party libraries
> combined, significantly increasing app download size. The size of your app
> can significantly reduce downloads [1]. Switch a single feature over to a
> different set of map tiles, and possibly decreasing downloads of the app,
> seems like a dangerous and counterintuitive tradeoff to me.
>
> So the question is, given all this, is switching over the nearby feature to
> use OSM-based tiles instead of Apple Maps worth it? In the long run, if
> these problems could be solved, I'd say it absolutely is worth it. But, in
> the short term, the work would take significant time and effort, and could
> actually decrease app usage by decreasing the app download rate; that
> tradeoff doesn't seem worth it to me.
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
> Disclaimers: These are my opinions only. I worked on the apps in the past,
> but haven't for two years; my statements about development costs may be
> wrong, and the apps folks may well disagree with me about things. I work in
> the department responsible for Wikimedia maps, but have only worked on the
> team working on maps for a couple of months.
>
> [1]: https://segment.com/blog/mobile-app-size-effect-on-downloads/
>
> On 15 March 2017 at 09:25, Magnus Manske 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Josh, all,
> >
> > I am not one hell-bent on "FOSS or death"; I tend to use whatever works
> > best.
> >
> > That said, the cost-benefit analysis of using Apple Maps seems to boil
> > down:
> > * Apple Maps has slightly better rendering (didn't check, but I assume)
> > * Apple Maps uses less mobile bandwidth
> > * Apple Maps is not free (as in freedom)
> >
> > Now, looking at these points:
> >
> > * Somewhat better quality is not an argument. If it were, we would have
> > stayed with Britannica, and skipped that whole Wikipedia nonsense.
> > Wikipedia became better, in part, because people actually used it, saw
> the
> > issues, and fixed them. And OSM rendering might be not quite en par with
> > Apple Maps, it is quite usable, in my experience.
> >
> > * Less bandwidth usage is not an argument either. I doubt we are talking
> > about a significant percentage of an average users' data volume here. If
> > Android users can afford the bandwidth, so can people who buy an iPhone
> > (source: used to have iPhone).
> >
> > * The price tag is the "non-freedom". As far as I can tell, this would be
> > the very first Wikimedia "product" that incorporates non-free technology
> > and data. It sets a precedence. It also has the potential to poison the
> > otherwise great relations between the Wikipedia, Wikidata, and OSM
> > community. It says "OSM is not good enough (at least for Apple users)"
> > quite plainly. How would we feel if OSM started to remove Wikidata tags
> and
> > replace them with Britannica links?
> >
> > All in all, IMHO, the cost is too high for the (at best) flimsy benefits.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 12:52 AM Joshua Minor 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > My name is Josh Minor, and I am the Product Manager for the Wikipedia
> iOS
> > > app. I wanted to speak to a couple specific issues and
> misunderstandings
> > > raised by this email thread.
> > >
> > > First, please take a look at
> > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
> > which
> > > provides some background on this decision. Jonatan linked to it, and it
> > > covers several of the concerns raised on the thread and gives our
> > > reasoning. I'd also suggest subscribing to this ticket:
> > > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763 which Jonatan filed, and
> where
> > > you can track efforts and issues with replacement maps.
> > >
> > > A few clarifying points:
> > >
> > > 1. The Places tab[1], and its use of Apple’s maps tiles, is not part of
> > the
> > > articles 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread John
This reminds me of en wiki's non-free policy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content_criteria#1
highlights the point fairly clearly Usage of non-free materials is often
easier and higher quality than using the free equivalent . However
Wikimedia's mission and goal's are to support and promote free content, yes
you will need to jump thru a few more hoops and adds a little more work.
But without those driving factors we will often see the free options wither
and fail.

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Dan Garry  wrote:

> Hey Magnus,
>
> There are a few other factors to consider in addition to those listed. For
> example, development cost. Our maps tile service is not compatible with the
> iOS app out of the box. This isn't surprising; Apple wants you to use
> things like Apple Maps rather than your own solution. Android is, by its
> nature, a more open platform, so I am not too surprised that it was easier
> to integrate our tile server into the Android app than the iOS app. Sadly,
> it's not as simple as just switching over to OSM-based tiles; on the
> contrary, it's a significant amount of work.
>
> Now, using our tile service would also have required the iOS app to use the
> MapBox SDK. This is the size of all their other third party libraries
> combined, significantly increasing app download size. The size of your app
> can significantly reduce downloads [1]. Switch a single feature over to a
> different set of map tiles, and possibly decreasing downloads of the app,
> seems like a dangerous and counterintuitive tradeoff to me.
>
> So the question is, given all this, is switching over the nearby feature to
> use OSM-based tiles instead of Apple Maps worth it? In the long run, if
> these problems could be solved, I'd say it absolutely is worth it. But, in
> the short term, the work would take significant time and effort, and could
> actually decrease app usage by decreasing the app download rate; that
> tradeoff doesn't seem worth it to me.
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
> Disclaimers: These are my opinions only. I worked on the apps in the past,
> but haven't for two years; my statements about development costs may be
> wrong, and the apps folks may well disagree with me about things. I work in
> the department responsible for Wikimedia maps, but have only worked on the
> team working on maps for a couple of months.
>
> [1]: https://segment.com/blog/mobile-app-size-effect-on-downloads/
>
> On 15 March 2017 at 09:25, Magnus Manske 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Josh, all,
> >
> > I am not one hell-bent on "FOSS or death"; I tend to use whatever works
> > best.
> >
> > That said, the cost-benefit analysis of using Apple Maps seems to boil
> > down:
> > * Apple Maps has slightly better rendering (didn't check, but I assume)
> > * Apple Maps uses less mobile bandwidth
> > * Apple Maps is not free (as in freedom)
> >
> > Now, looking at these points:
> >
> > * Somewhat better quality is not an argument. If it were, we would have
> > stayed with Britannica, and skipped that whole Wikipedia nonsense.
> > Wikipedia became better, in part, because people actually used it, saw
> the
> > issues, and fixed them. And OSM rendering might be not quite en par with
> > Apple Maps, it is quite usable, in my experience.
> >
> > * Less bandwidth usage is not an argument either. I doubt we are talking
> > about a significant percentage of an average users' data volume here. If
> > Android users can afford the bandwidth, so can people who buy an iPhone
> > (source: used to have iPhone).
> >
> > * The price tag is the "non-freedom". As far as I can tell, this would be
> > the very first Wikimedia "product" that incorporates non-free technology
> > and data. It sets a precedence. It also has the potential to poison the
> > otherwise great relations between the Wikipedia, Wikidata, and OSM
> > community. It says "OSM is not good enough (at least for Apple users)"
> > quite plainly. How would we feel if OSM started to remove Wikidata tags
> and
> > replace them with Britannica links?
> >
> > All in all, IMHO, the cost is too high for the (at best) flimsy benefits.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 12:52 AM Joshua Minor 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > My name is Josh Minor, and I am the Product Manager for the Wikipedia
> iOS
> > > app. I wanted to speak to a couple specific issues and
> misunderstandings
> > > raised by this email thread.
> > >
> > > First, please take a look at
> > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
> > which
> > > provides some background on this decision. Jonatan linked to it, and it
> > > covers several of the concerns raised on the thread and gives our
> > > reasoning. I'd also suggest subscribing to this ticket:
> > > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763 which Jonatan filed, and
> where
> > > you can track efforts and issues with replacement maps.
> > >
> > > A 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-21 Thread Dan Garry
Hey Magnus,

There are a few other factors to consider in addition to those listed. For
example, development cost. Our maps tile service is not compatible with the
iOS app out of the box. This isn't surprising; Apple wants you to use
things like Apple Maps rather than your own solution. Android is, by its
nature, a more open platform, so I am not too surprised that it was easier
to integrate our tile server into the Android app than the iOS app. Sadly,
it's not as simple as just switching over to OSM-based tiles; on the
contrary, it's a significant amount of work.

Now, using our tile service would also have required the iOS app to use the
MapBox SDK. This is the size of all their other third party libraries
combined, significantly increasing app download size. The size of your app
can significantly reduce downloads [1]. Switch a single feature over to a
different set of map tiles, and possibly decreasing downloads of the app,
seems like a dangerous and counterintuitive tradeoff to me.

So the question is, given all this, is switching over the nearby feature to
use OSM-based tiles instead of Apple Maps worth it? In the long run, if
these problems could be solved, I'd say it absolutely is worth it. But, in
the short term, the work would take significant time and effort, and could
actually decrease app usage by decreasing the app download rate; that
tradeoff doesn't seem worth it to me.

Thanks,
Dan

Disclaimers: These are my opinions only. I worked on the apps in the past,
but haven't for two years; my statements about development costs may be
wrong, and the apps folks may well disagree with me about things. I work in
the department responsible for Wikimedia maps, but have only worked on the
team working on maps for a couple of months.

[1]: https://segment.com/blog/mobile-app-size-effect-on-downloads/

On 15 March 2017 at 09:25, Magnus Manske 
wrote:

> Hi Josh, all,
>
> I am not one hell-bent on "FOSS or death"; I tend to use whatever works
> best.
>
> That said, the cost-benefit analysis of using Apple Maps seems to boil
> down:
> * Apple Maps has slightly better rendering (didn't check, but I assume)
> * Apple Maps uses less mobile bandwidth
> * Apple Maps is not free (as in freedom)
>
> Now, looking at these points:
>
> * Somewhat better quality is not an argument. If it were, we would have
> stayed with Britannica, and skipped that whole Wikipedia nonsense.
> Wikipedia became better, in part, because people actually used it, saw the
> issues, and fixed them. And OSM rendering might be not quite en par with
> Apple Maps, it is quite usable, in my experience.
>
> * Less bandwidth usage is not an argument either. I doubt we are talking
> about a significant percentage of an average users' data volume here. If
> Android users can afford the bandwidth, so can people who buy an iPhone
> (source: used to have iPhone).
>
> * The price tag is the "non-freedom". As far as I can tell, this would be
> the very first Wikimedia "product" that incorporates non-free technology
> and data. It sets a precedence. It also has the potential to poison the
> otherwise great relations between the Wikipedia, Wikidata, and OSM
> community. It says "OSM is not good enough (at least for Apple users)"
> quite plainly. How would we feel if OSM started to remove Wikidata tags and
> replace them with Britannica links?
>
> All in all, IMHO, the cost is too high for the (at best) flimsy benefits.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 12:52 AM Joshua Minor 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > My name is Josh Minor, and I am the Product Manager for the Wikipedia iOS
> > app. I wanted to speak to a couple specific issues and misunderstandings
> > raised by this email thread.
> >
> > First, please take a look at
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
> which
> > provides some background on this decision. Jonatan linked to it, and it
> > covers several of the concerns raised on the thread and gives our
> > reasoning. I'd also suggest subscribing to this ticket:
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763 which Jonatan filed, and where
> > you can track efforts and issues with replacement maps.
> >
> > A few clarifying points:
> >
> > 1. The Places tab[1], and its use of Apple’s maps tiles, is not part of
> the
> > articles or article display, it is a navigational aid to help you find
> > articles. This doesn’t mean it’s exempt from considerations raised here,
> > but just want to clarify that this is not about editor created maps in
> > projects, but rather an app-specific discovery mechanism.
> >
> > 2. The feature doesn’t violate our privacy policy[2] and was reviewed by
> > Wikimedia Foundation's Legal department before entering beta. The App’s
> > access to the users’ geolocation to recommend nearby articles, with the
> > users’ explicit consent, is already part of both apps. The new feature
> > merely adds a different way to visually view 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-15 Thread Magnus Manske
Hi Josh, all,

I am not one hell-bent on "FOSS or death"; I tend to use whatever works
best.

That said, the cost-benefit analysis of using Apple Maps seems to boil down:
* Apple Maps has slightly better rendering (didn't check, but I assume)
* Apple Maps uses less mobile bandwidth
* Apple Maps is not free (as in freedom)

Now, looking at these points:

* Somewhat better quality is not an argument. If it were, we would have
stayed with Britannica, and skipped that whole Wikipedia nonsense.
Wikipedia became better, in part, because people actually used it, saw the
issues, and fixed them. And OSM rendering might be not quite en par with
Apple Maps, it is quite usable, in my experience.

* Less bandwidth usage is not an argument either. I doubt we are talking
about a significant percentage of an average users' data volume here. If
Android users can afford the bandwidth, so can people who buy an iPhone
(source: used to have iPhone).

* The price tag is the "non-freedom". As far as I can tell, this would be
the very first Wikimedia "product" that incorporates non-free technology
and data. It sets a precedence. It also has the potential to poison the
otherwise great relations between the Wikipedia, Wikidata, and OSM
community. It says "OSM is not good enough (at least for Apple users)"
quite plainly. How would we feel if OSM started to remove Wikidata tags and
replace them with Britannica links?

All in all, IMHO, the cost is too high for the (at best) flimsy benefits.

Cheers,
Magnus


On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 12:52 AM Joshua Minor  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> My name is Josh Minor, and I am the Product Manager for the Wikipedia iOS
> app. I wanted to speak to a couple specific issues and misunderstandings
> raised by this email thread.
>
> First, please take a look at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service which
> provides some background on this decision. Jonatan linked to it, and it
> covers several of the concerns raised on the thread and gives our
> reasoning. I'd also suggest subscribing to this ticket:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763 which Jonatan filed, and where
> you can track efforts and issues with replacement maps.
>
> A few clarifying points:
>
> 1. The Places tab[1], and its use of Apple’s maps tiles, is not part of the
> articles or article display, it is a navigational aid to help you find
> articles. This doesn’t mean it’s exempt from considerations raised here,
> but just want to clarify that this is not about editor created maps in
> projects, but rather an app-specific discovery mechanism.
>
> 2. The feature doesn’t violate our privacy policy[2] and was reviewed by
> Wikimedia Foundation's Legal department before entering beta. The App’s
> access to the users’ geolocation to recommend nearby articles, with the
> users’ explicit consent, is already part of both apps. The new feature
> merely adds a different way to visually view nearby articles - the user
> must, as before, still provide explicit consent for the App to access their
> geolocation. Users can always turn on or off the provision of their
> geolocation via their iPhone location settings.
>
> The feature also makes requests to Apple’s map tile servers for display on
> the App. These tiles may or may not be near the actual location of the
> user. It doesn’t involve sending Apple the articles you read or anything
> about your Wikipedia usage. Apple has public statements and documentation
> to explain[3] how their maps service preserves privacy by using a
> randomized and frequently changing device ID to request the maps, by not
> tracking users over time, and by not  building map usage profiles of users.
> Overall, Apple’s data collection practices are governed by their privacy
> policy [4], which  users must agree to order to use their iPhones.
>
> We plan to further expand the explanation in the FAQ/privacy section of the
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service page
> in
> the next day or so.
>
> 3. As stated by others on this thread, the issue at hand is the feasibility
> and usability of a libre maps tile server, and impacts on users and how it
> reflects (or doesn’t) the values of Wikimedians. The rest of the work on
> this feature (such as the time spent on search, visually clustering items
> on the map, a list view of nearby landmarks, and the Wikipedia article
> pins) will be applicable, independent of the map provider. In fact, I’d
> estimate the engineer doing the work spent more time on hacking to try to
> make a combination of MapBox and Wikimedia tiles work, than he did/will on
> integrating/removing Apple maps.
>
> 4. This feature was announced on the Wikimedia Blog[5], described in an
> initial MediaWiki.org page[6], all work was documented and tracked on
> Phabricator (including an initial tech investigation, the request to remove
> Apple Maps during development, and the overall feature[7]) and then the
> decision to push into 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
One point about OSM is that it provides a better service in situations that
are sub optimal. The infra structure for Haiti is diminished and it is in
OSM where people are actually working hard to provide the best map service.

We have had nearby function in Labs for a very long time, I have read the
article and I find what has been decided, it does not provide me with the
reasons for it. As far as I am concerned you chose to go this way.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 15 March 2017 at 01:18, Joshua Minor  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> My name is Josh Minor, and I am the Product Manager for the Wikipedia iOS
> app. I wanted to speak to a couple specific issues and misunderstandings
> raised by this email thread.
>
> First, please take a look at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service which
> provides some background on this decision. Jonatan linked to it, and it
> covers several of the concerns raised on the thread and gives our
> reasoning. I'd also suggest subscribing to this ticket:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763 which Jonatan filed, and where
> you can track efforts and issues with replacement maps.
>
> A few clarifying points:
>
> 1. The Places tab[1], and its use of Apple’s maps tiles, is not part of the
> articles or article display, it is a navigational aid to help you find
> articles. This doesn’t mean it’s exempt from considerations raised here,
> but just want to clarify that this is not about editor created maps in
> projects, but rather an app-specific discovery mechanism.
>
> 2. The feature doesn’t violate our privacy policy[2] and was reviewed by
> Wikimedia Foundation's Legal department before entering beta. The App’s
> access to the users’ geolocation to recommend nearby articles, with the
> users’ explicit consent, is already part of both apps. The new feature
> merely adds a different way to visually view nearby articles - the user
> must, as before, still provide explicit consent for the App to access their
> geolocation. Users can always turn on or off the provision of their
> geolocation via their iPhone location settings.
>
> The feature also makes requests to Apple’s map tile servers for display on
> the App. These tiles may or may not be near the actual location of the
> user. It doesn’t involve sending Apple the articles you read or anything
> about your Wikipedia usage. Apple has public statements and documentation
> to explain[3] how their maps service preserves privacy by using a
> randomized and frequently changing device ID to request the maps, by not
> tracking users over time, and by not  building map usage profiles of users.
> Overall, Apple’s data collection practices are governed by their privacy
> policy [4], which  users must agree to order to use their iPhones.
>
> We plan to further expand the explanation in the FAQ/privacy section of the
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service page
> in
> the next day or so.
>
> 3. As stated by others on this thread, the issue at hand is the feasibility
> and usability of a libre maps tile server, and impacts on users and how it
> reflects (or doesn’t) the values of Wikimedians. The rest of the work on
> this feature (such as the time spent on search, visually clustering items
> on the map, a list view of nearby landmarks, and the Wikipedia article
> pins) will be applicable, independent of the map provider. In fact, I’d
> estimate the engineer doing the work spent more time on hacking to try to
> make a combination of MapBox and Wikimedia tiles work, than he did/will on
> integrating/removing Apple maps.
>
> 4. This feature was announced on the Wikimedia Blog[5], described in an
> initial MediaWiki.org page[6], all work was documented and tracked on
> Phabricator (including an initial tech investigation, the request to remove
> Apple Maps during development, and the overall feature[7]) and then the
> decision to push into beta with Apple Maps further documented on
> MediaWiki.org[8].
>
> In conclusion, I would like to thank you for the feedback and the
> opportunity to engage in a civil discussion about these important issues.
> Again, if you are interested in the next steps, I’d invite you to subscribe
> and comment on the phab ticket https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763
> or
> the MediaWiki.org page.
>
> [1] Design specification: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T130889
> [2]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/
> Maps_service#Privacy
> [3] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203033,
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207056,
> http://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/
> [4] http://www.apple.com/privacy/privacy-policy/
> [5] https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/06/17/wikipedia-mobile/
> [6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Nearby
> [7] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/ios-app-feature-places/
> [8] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-14 Thread James Heilman
Good to hear about privacy being maintained. Are there efforts to move to
OSM eventually?

J

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Joshua Minor  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> My name is Josh Minor, and I am the Product Manager for the Wikipedia iOS
> app. I wanted to speak to a couple specific issues and misunderstandings
> raised by this email thread.
>
> First, please take a look at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service which
> provides some background on this decision. Jonatan linked to it, and it
> covers several of the concerns raised on the thread and gives our
> reasoning. I'd also suggest subscribing to this ticket:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763 which Jonatan filed, and where
> you can track efforts and issues with replacement maps.
>
> A few clarifying points:
>
> 1. The Places tab[1], and its use of Apple’s maps tiles, is not part of the
> articles or article display, it is a navigational aid to help you find
> articles. This doesn’t mean it’s exempt from considerations raised here,
> but just want to clarify that this is not about editor created maps in
> projects, but rather an app-specific discovery mechanism.
>
> 2. The feature doesn’t violate our privacy policy[2] and was reviewed by
> Wikimedia Foundation's Legal department before entering beta. The App’s
> access to the users’ geolocation to recommend nearby articles, with the
> users’ explicit consent, is already part of both apps. The new feature
> merely adds a different way to visually view nearby articles - the user
> must, as before, still provide explicit consent for the App to access their
> geolocation. Users can always turn on or off the provision of their
> geolocation via their iPhone location settings.
>
> The feature also makes requests to Apple’s map tile servers for display on
> the App. These tiles may or may not be near the actual location of the
> user. It doesn’t involve sending Apple the articles you read or anything
> about your Wikipedia usage. Apple has public statements and documentation
> to explain[3] how their maps service preserves privacy by using a
> randomized and frequently changing device ID to request the maps, by not
> tracking users over time, and by not  building map usage profiles of users.
> Overall, Apple’s data collection practices are governed by their privacy
> policy [4], which  users must agree to order to use their iPhones.
>
> We plan to further expand the explanation in the FAQ/privacy section of the
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service page
> in
> the next day or so.
>
> 3. As stated by others on this thread, the issue at hand is the feasibility
> and usability of a libre maps tile server, and impacts on users and how it
> reflects (or doesn’t) the values of Wikimedians. The rest of the work on
> this feature (such as the time spent on search, visually clustering items
> on the map, a list view of nearby landmarks, and the Wikipedia article
> pins) will be applicable, independent of the map provider. In fact, I’d
> estimate the engineer doing the work spent more time on hacking to try to
> make a combination of MapBox and Wikimedia tiles work, than he did/will on
> integrating/removing Apple maps.
>
> 4. This feature was announced on the Wikimedia Blog[5], described in an
> initial MediaWiki.org page[6], all work was documented and tracked on
> Phabricator (including an initial tech investigation, the request to remove
> Apple Maps during development, and the overall feature[7]) and then the
> decision to push into beta with Apple Maps further documented on
> MediaWiki.org[8].
>
> In conclusion, I would like to thank you for the feedback and the
> opportunity to engage in a civil discussion about these important issues.
> Again, if you are interested in the next steps, I’d invite you to subscribe
> and comment on the phab ticket https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763
> or
> the MediaWiki.org page.
>
> [1] Design specification: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T130889
> [2]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/
> Maps_service#Privacy
> [3] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203033,
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207056,
> http://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/
> [4] http://www.apple.com/privacy/privacy-policy/
> [5] https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/06/17/wikipedia-mobile/
> [6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Nearby
> [7] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/ios-app-feature-places/
> [8] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-14 Thread Joshua Minor
Hello,

My name is Josh Minor, and I am the Product Manager for the Wikipedia iOS
app. I wanted to speak to a couple specific issues and misunderstandings
raised by this email thread.

First, please take a look at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service which
provides some background on this decision. Jonatan linked to it, and it
covers several of the concerns raised on the thread and gives our
reasoning. I'd also suggest subscribing to this ticket:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763 which Jonatan filed, and where
you can track efforts and issues with replacement maps.

A few clarifying points:

1. The Places tab[1], and its use of Apple’s maps tiles, is not part of the
articles or article display, it is a navigational aid to help you find
articles. This doesn’t mean it’s exempt from considerations raised here,
but just want to clarify that this is not about editor created maps in
projects, but rather an app-specific discovery mechanism.

2. The feature doesn’t violate our privacy policy[2] and was reviewed by
Wikimedia Foundation's Legal department before entering beta. The App’s
access to the users’ geolocation to recommend nearby articles, with the
users’ explicit consent, is already part of both apps. The new feature
merely adds a different way to visually view nearby articles - the user
must, as before, still provide explicit consent for the App to access their
geolocation. Users can always turn on or off the provision of their
geolocation via their iPhone location settings.

The feature also makes requests to Apple’s map tile servers for display on
the App. These tiles may or may not be near the actual location of the
user. It doesn’t involve sending Apple the articles you read or anything
about your Wikipedia usage. Apple has public statements and documentation
to explain[3] how their maps service preserves privacy by using a
randomized and frequently changing device ID to request the maps, by not
tracking users over time, and by not  building map usage profiles of users.
Overall, Apple’s data collection practices are governed by their privacy
policy [4], which  users must agree to order to use their iPhones.

We plan to further expand the explanation in the FAQ/privacy section of the
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service page in
the next day or so.

3. As stated by others on this thread, the issue at hand is the feasibility
and usability of a libre maps tile server, and impacts on users and how it
reflects (or doesn’t) the values of Wikimedians. The rest of the work on
this feature (such as the time spent on search, visually clustering items
on the map, a list view of nearby landmarks, and the Wikipedia article
pins) will be applicable, independent of the map provider. In fact, I’d
estimate the engineer doing the work spent more time on hacking to try to
make a combination of MapBox and Wikimedia tiles work, than he did/will on
integrating/removing Apple maps.

4. This feature was announced on the Wikimedia Blog[5], described in an
initial MediaWiki.org page[6], all work was documented and tracked on
Phabricator (including an initial tech investigation, the request to remove
Apple Maps during development, and the overall feature[7]) and then the
decision to push into beta with Apple Maps further documented on
MediaWiki.org[8].

In conclusion, I would like to thank you for the feedback and the
opportunity to engage in a civil discussion about these important issues.
Again, if you are interested in the next steps, I’d invite you to subscribe
and comment on the phab ticket https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763 or
the MediaWiki.org page.

[1] Design specification: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T130889
[2]
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service#Privacy
[3] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203033,
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207056,
http://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/
[4] http://www.apple.com/privacy/privacy-policy/
[5] https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/06/17/wikipedia-mobile/
[6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Nearby
[7] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/ios-app-feature-places/
[8] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-11 Thread Samuel Klein
Hi Jonatan,

Thanks for this email, it's relevant to the general wikimedia list &
community.

I broadly agree with you: we should aim to strengthen and expand the
universe of free knowledge, including every building block along the way:
so that others can replicate both toolchain and result on their own
backends.

In practice, I think that means: releasing a Beta feature that uses
non-free libraries is ok, if the goal is to get feedback, test iterations,
and replace them with free libraries.  Releasing a completed tool that uses
non-free libraries might be ok if there is currently no free alternative
whatever, and the creation/curation benefits of having the tool are
significant; in such cases we should still plan partnerships or other
methods for replacing those libraries.

When it comes to serving maps, integrating map features with iOS, and OSM:
a more basic issue comes into play. We should support OSM development and
improvement 100% as though it were part of our own mission.  Because it
is!  Maps are an increasingly large part of knowledge capture, discovery,
sharing, and prioritization.  It's important to get this right not just on
the scale of the roadmap of a single feature by a single staff development
team, but as a movement. (The movement devoted to global knowledge access;
not just the subset covered by current .W. projects & tools!)  Getting it
right here can mean many things, but definitely includes over time
* Ensuring there is a free map ecosystem that is as good as any proprietary
one
* Working side-by-side with the OSM community, spiritually and practically
(and not alienating one another around minor factional differences)

Clearly OSM benefits from working through any practical/accessibility
reasons that make it hard for app-developers to use OSM maps rather than
Apple Maps.  So let's work directly with them to solve this.  This WP app
offers a richly detailed use case, and a new channel for people to
potentially discover and contribute to OSM; OSM devs are experts at
identifying existing solutions or building new ones.  There are nuances of
how funding / development / production happens across the various
subcommunities, teams, foundations and third-parties, and more than one way
to do it.  [does WMF fund pure OSM development in parallel to supporting WP
feature work?  Support community development around crossovers between our
networks? does OSM or MB fund some wiki work as part of
outreach+expansion?]  This shouldn't prevent getting this right — just as
temporary gaps in a fully free toolchain shouldn't prevent running tests
with a proprietary library in the interim.

Warmly,
Sam

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Jonatan Svensson Glad <
gladjona...@outlook.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
>
> I'm not one who usually writes on these lists, but since it seems like a
> good way to get others opinions (and ince I've already formed my own), I
> thought it was a good way to see what others had to say and think.
>
>
> The mobile team for the iOS app (who are all awesome!)  has recently
> released (in beta) a version of the app which incorporates Apple Maps a one
> of it's main feature, to find articles nearby.
>
>
> "The Wikipedia iOS app has released a beta version (5.4.0 1081) which uses
> Apple maps as its map data source. This is not an easy decision and has
> already sparked some discussion of whether this is acceptable given our
> project's values."
>
>
> These maps are not free (non-libre) and is in my strong opinion against
> our values. We only create and publish things which are freely licensed
> (with fair use imagery being the only exception, after a board resolution
> regarding EDP's).
>
>
> Some reasons why this was done can be read here:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
>
>
> I was asked if we could use non-free elements as long as we said it was
> non-free and you may not be allowed to re-ue it, and I responded with "If
> we can't find enough editors for Wikipedia, would it ever be alright if we
> copied text from Britannica, as long as we said it was from Britannica, and
> that reusers can not use it" i.e. just because we can't make something,
> doesn't mean we should use something else (non-free thing) to reach our
> 'wants', if it causes us to  loose what is... 'us'.
>
>
> I'm seeking imput and opinions from you all whether this i allowed or not
> our according to values, which states:
>
>
> "An essential part of the Wikimedia Foundation's mission is encouraging
> the development of free-content educational resources that may be created,
> used, and reused by the entire human community. We believe that this
> mission requires thriving open formats and open standards on the web to
> allow the creation of content not subject to restrictions on creation, use,
> and reuse.
>
> At the creation level, we want to provide the editing community with
> freely-licensed tools for participation and collaboration. Our community
> should also have 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-11 Thread Rogol Domedonfors
I am surprised that this discussion would be held now, *after* the work has
been done.  Was it really not possible to plan ahead and have this
discussion before doing work that might turn out to be wasted?  Was it
really so hard to predict this difficulty?  Who was in charge?

"Rogol"

On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 6:34 AM, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> What I do not understand is why?  We have had maps and nearby functionality
> for a very long time 2014 based on Wikidata [1]. It has the benefit of
> being of use in any of our languages much more than what Apple has to
> offer. This was developed at the Hackathon in Vienna.
>
> OSM maps have as a benefit that they serve countries like Haiti much better
> [2]. It is why Doctors Without Borders use their maps and not others [2].
>
> A third reason is that by concentrating on the Apple API and kits we are
> not developing for the majority of smart phones.
>
> A fourth reason is that it will enhance the cooperation with the OSM
> community.
>
> A final reason is that we are already Wikidatafying Commons; this will have
> a geo location part as well and consequently I do not see any advantages in
> anything but a Wikidata approach to maps because through queries we can
> target Wikipedia articles in a language. A final argument, it will drive
> more people to add labels in Wikidata in the language where our coverage is
> now not so good. Including English in China.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> PS I do have an iPhone.
>
> [1]
> http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/05/wmhack-
> maps-and-wikidata-ii.html
> [2] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2011/03/need-for-
> up-to-date-maps.html
>
> On 11 March 2017 at 03:59, Jonatan Svensson Glad 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> >
> > I'm not one who usually writes on these lists, but since it seems like a
> > good way to get others opinions (and ince I've already formed my own), I
> > thought it was a good way to see what others had to say and think.
> >
> >
> > The mobile team for the iOS app (who are all awesome!)  has recently
> > released (in beta) a version of the app which incorporates Apple Maps a
> one
> > of it's main feature, to find articles nearby.
> >
> >
> > "The Wikipedia iOS app has released a beta version (5.4.0 1081) which
> uses
> > Apple maps as its map data source. This is not an easy decision and has
> > already sparked some discussion of whether this is acceptable given our
> > project's values."
> >
> >
> > These maps are not free (non-libre) and is in my strong opinion against
> > our values. We only create and publish things which are freely licensed
> > (with fair use imagery being the only exception, after a board resolution
> > regarding EDP's).
> >
> >
> > Some reasons why this was done can be read here:
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
> >
> >
> > I was asked if we could use non-free elements as long as we said it was
> > non-free and you may not be allowed to re-ue it, and I responded with "If
> > we can't find enough editors for Wikipedia, would it ever be alright if
> we
> > copied text from Britannica, as long as we said it was from Britannica,
> and
> > that reusers can not use it" i.e. just because we can't make something,
> > doesn't mean we should use something else (non-free thing) to reach our
> > 'wants', if it causes us to  loose what is... 'us'.
> >
> >
> > I'm seeking imput and opinions from you all whether this i allowed or not
> > our according to values, which states:
> >
> >
> > "An essential part of the Wikimedia Foundation's mission is encouraging
> > the development of free-content educational resources that may be
> created,
> > used, and reused by the entire human community. We believe that this
> > mission requires thriving open formats and open standards on the web to
> > allow the creation of content not subject to restrictions on creation,
> use,
> > and reuse.
> >
> > At the creation level, we want to provide the editing community with
> > freely-licensed tools for participation and collaboration. Our community
> > should also have the freedom to fork thanks to freely available dumps.
> >
> > The community will in turn create a body of knowledge which can be
> > distributed freely throughout the world, viewable or playable by free
> > software tools."
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-10 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
What I do not understand is why?  We have had maps and nearby functionality
for a very long time 2014 based on Wikidata [1]. It has the benefit of
being of use in any of our languages much more than what Apple has to
offer. This was developed at the Hackathon in Vienna.

OSM maps have as a benefit that they serve countries like Haiti much better
[2]. It is why Doctors Without Borders use their maps and not others [2].

A third reason is that by concentrating on the Apple API and kits we are
not developing for the majority of smart phones.

A fourth reason is that it will enhance the cooperation with the OSM
community.

A final reason is that we are already Wikidatafying Commons; this will have
a geo location part as well and consequently I do not see any advantages in
anything but a Wikidata approach to maps because through queries we can
target Wikipedia articles in a language. A final argument, it will drive
more people to add labels in Wikidata in the language where our coverage is
now not so good. Including English in China.
Thanks,
  GerardM

PS I do have an iPhone.

[1]
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/05/wmhack-maps-and-wikidata-ii.html
[2] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2011/03/need-for-up-to-date-maps.html

On 11 March 2017 at 03:59, Jonatan Svensson Glad 
wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
>
> I'm not one who usually writes on these lists, but since it seems like a
> good way to get others opinions (and ince I've already formed my own), I
> thought it was a good way to see what others had to say and think.
>
>
> The mobile team for the iOS app (who are all awesome!)  has recently
> released (in beta) a version of the app which incorporates Apple Maps a one
> of it's main feature, to find articles nearby.
>
>
> "The Wikipedia iOS app has released a beta version (5.4.0 1081) which uses
> Apple maps as its map data source. This is not an easy decision and has
> already sparked some discussion of whether this is acceptable given our
> project's values."
>
>
> These maps are not free (non-libre) and is in my strong opinion against
> our values. We only create and publish things which are freely licensed
> (with fair use imagery being the only exception, after a board resolution
> regarding EDP's).
>
>
> Some reasons why this was done can be read here:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
>
>
> I was asked if we could use non-free elements as long as we said it was
> non-free and you may not be allowed to re-ue it, and I responded with "If
> we can't find enough editors for Wikipedia, would it ever be alright if we
> copied text from Britannica, as long as we said it was from Britannica, and
> that reusers can not use it" i.e. just because we can't make something,
> doesn't mean we should use something else (non-free thing) to reach our
> 'wants', if it causes us to  loose what is... 'us'.
>
>
> I'm seeking imput and opinions from you all whether this i allowed or not
> our according to values, which states:
>
>
> "An essential part of the Wikimedia Foundation's mission is encouraging
> the development of free-content educational resources that may be created,
> used, and reused by the entire human community. We believe that this
> mission requires thriving open formats and open standards on the web to
> allow the creation of content not subject to restrictions on creation, use,
> and reuse.
>
> At the creation level, we want to provide the editing community with
> freely-licensed tools for participation and collaboration. Our community
> should also have the freedom to fork thanks to freely available dumps.
>
> The community will in turn create a body of knowledge which can be
> distributed freely throughout the world, viewable or playable by free
> software tools."
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-10 Thread James Heilman
That link does not for me Jonatan?

But yes if the app is pulling from Apple and giving our users data to Apple
that would not be allowed by the privacy policy. Or at least that is my
understanding.

James

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:04 PM, Jonatan Svensson Glad <
gladjona...@outlook.com> wrote:

> > If the nonfree content is presented as an integral part of the
> interface, such as inline with the article, that's a problem.
>
> It is an "integral part of the interface", so mcu so, it is it's own
> "thing" in the app, and not part of "in articles". See screenshot (which I
> can't upload to Commons) here: https://snag.gy/5RpbXZ.jpg It does not
> just "pull up" Apple Maps, but incorporates in it to the app itself.
>
>
> Jonatan
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-10 Thread James Heilman
Why are we not using OSM? I know Yuri created tiles within the WMF system
of services and those are what Wikivoyage uses. Wikivoyage was once using
no open maps that were not hosted locally which was a breach of our privacy
policy. Thankfully Yuri created the solution mentioned once the issue was
discussed. Maybe he could help with this aswell?

James

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 8:37 PM, Todd Allen  wrote:

> I think it depends how it's being used. If the nonfree content is presented
> as an integral part of the interface, such as inline with the article,
> that's a problem. On the other hand, if the interface just allows the
> separate Apple Maps to be pulled up, that's a bit different. We frequently
> link to offsite nonfree content when, for example, we cite such a source as
> a reference. It only becomes a major issue when it's presented as part of
> an article.
>
> My more major concern is, would this be a privacy issue? That concern has
> been brought up before, I think for quite valid reasons, with for example
> social media "Share this" buttons. Would this allow Apple to gather data on
> what a reader is reading?
>
> Todd
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Jonatan Svensson Glad <
> gladjona...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> >
> > I'm not one who usually writes on these lists, but since it seems like a
> > good way to get others opinions (and ince I've already formed my own), I
> > thought it was a good way to see what others had to say and think.
> >
> >
> > The mobile team for the iOS app (who are all awesome!)  has recently
> > released (in beta) a version of the app which incorporates Apple Maps a
> one
> > of it's main feature, to find articles nearby.
> >
> >
> > "The Wikipedia iOS app has released a beta version (5.4.0 1081) which
> uses
> > Apple maps as its map data source. This is not an easy decision and has
> > already sparked some discussion of whether this is acceptable given our
> > project's values."
> >
> >
> > These maps are not free (non-libre) and is in my strong opinion against
> > our values. We only create and publish things which are freely licensed
> > (with fair use imagery being the only exception, after a board resolution
> > regarding EDP's).
> >
> >
> > Some reasons why this was done can be read here:
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
> >
> >
> > I was asked if we could use non-free elements as long as we said it was
> > non-free and you may not be allowed to re-ue it, and I responded with "If
> > we can't find enough editors for Wikipedia, would it ever be alright if
> we
> > copied text from Britannica, as long as we said it was from Britannica,
> and
> > that reusers can not use it" i.e. just because we can't make something,
> > doesn't mean we should use something else (non-free thing) to reach our
> > 'wants', if it causes us to  loose what is... 'us'.
> >
> >
> > I'm seeking imput and opinions from you all whether this i allowed or not
> > our according to values, which states:
> >
> >
> > "An essential part of the Wikimedia Foundation's mission is encouraging
> > the development of free-content educational resources that may be
> created,
> > used, and reused by the entire human community. We believe that this
> > mission requires thriving open formats and open standards on the web to
> > allow the creation of content not subject to restrictions on creation,
> use,
> > and reuse.
> >
> > At the creation level, we want to provide the editing community with
> > freely-licensed tools for participation and collaboration. Our community
> > should also have the freedom to fork thanks to freely available dumps.
> >
> > The community will in turn create a body of knowledge which can be
> > distributed freely throughout the world, viewable or playable by free
> > software tools."
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-10 Thread Jonatan Svensson Glad
> If the nonfree content is presented as an integral part of the interface, 
> such as inline with the article, that's a problem.

It is an "integral part of the interface", so mcu so, it is it's own "thing" in 
the app, and not part of "in articles". See screenshot (which I can't upload to 
Commons) here: https://snag.gy/5RpbXZ.jpg It does not just "pull up" Apple 
Maps, but incorporates in it to the app itself.


Jonatan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using non-free elements vs our values (Apple Maps vs Wikipedia iOS app)

2017-03-10 Thread Todd Allen
I think it depends how it's being used. If the nonfree content is presented
as an integral part of the interface, such as inline with the article,
that's a problem. On the other hand, if the interface just allows the
separate Apple Maps to be pulled up, that's a bit different. We frequently
link to offsite nonfree content when, for example, we cite such a source as
a reference. It only becomes a major issue when it's presented as part of
an article.

My more major concern is, would this be a privacy issue? That concern has
been brought up before, I think for quite valid reasons, with for example
social media "Share this" buttons. Would this allow Apple to gather data on
what a reader is reading?

Todd

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Jonatan Svensson Glad <
gladjona...@outlook.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
>
> I'm not one who usually writes on these lists, but since it seems like a
> good way to get others opinions (and ince I've already formed my own), I
> thought it was a good way to see what others had to say and think.
>
>
> The mobile team for the iOS app (who are all awesome!)  has recently
> released (in beta) a version of the app which incorporates Apple Maps a one
> of it's main feature, to find articles nearby.
>
>
> "The Wikipedia iOS app has released a beta version (5.4.0 1081) which uses
> Apple maps as its map data source. This is not an easy decision and has
> already sparked some discussion of whether this is acceptable given our
> project's values."
>
>
> These maps are not free (non-libre) and is in my strong opinion against
> our values. We only create and publish things which are freely licensed
> (with fair use imagery being the only exception, after a board resolution
> regarding EDP's).
>
>
> Some reasons why this was done can be read here:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service
>
>
> I was asked if we could use non-free elements as long as we said it was
> non-free and you may not be allowed to re-ue it, and I responded with "If
> we can't find enough editors for Wikipedia, would it ever be alright if we
> copied text from Britannica, as long as we said it was from Britannica, and
> that reusers can not use it" i.e. just because we can't make something,
> doesn't mean we should use something else (non-free thing) to reach our
> 'wants', if it causes us to  loose what is... 'us'.
>
>
> I'm seeking imput and opinions from you all whether this i allowed or not
> our according to values, which states:
>
>
> "An essential part of the Wikimedia Foundation's mission is encouraging
> the development of free-content educational resources that may be created,
> used, and reused by the entire human community. We believe that this
> mission requires thriving open formats and open standards on the web to
> allow the creation of content not subject to restrictions on creation, use,
> and reuse.
>
> At the creation level, we want to provide the editing community with
> freely-licensed tools for participation and collaboration. Our community
> should also have the freedom to fork thanks to freely available dumps.
>
> The community will in turn create a body of knowledge which can be
> distributed freely throughout the world, viewable or playable by free
> software tools."
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
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