Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-22 Thread WereSpielChequers


 Message: 5
 Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:33:31 +
 From: Mike  Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com
 To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched
 Message-ID:
 CAF0qKV0enH4_EwrnLYoPUOGwiDrjRHBfBuLQY1Pv2JiDfCD=
 m...@mail.gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 John, and others.

 I have finally figured out a big problem with my plan. The articles for
 deletion are not tagged peoperly at all. There are authors who know for a
 fact that articles are mistagged and have no proper copyvio tagging, and
 now they are accusing me of hosting copyvio articles. I see this a problem
 in the wikipedia deletion system, if an editor knows for a fact that an
 articles is in violation of copyright then they should tag it as Such. I
 have written scripts to strip out artilces that are properly tagged. Lets
 sit down and work out a plan for a proper system of sorting out what is not
 notable, and waht is copyrightvio. I want to host the non notable artilces.
 My argument is that giving non-notable bands and actors etc an outlet to be
 hosted will reduce repeated reposting of articles. I have been sorting
 through all these articles, contacting people and many of them are
 thankful, I would be suprized if any of them would repost the deleted
 article, like the Jack Psyco from .au, someone reposted his article many
 many times.
 Please support me in cleaning up the deletion and tagging process, I am
 willing to put some work into this. I can write code as well.
 Some people have asked me not to use the mailing list, but I wanted to
 bring up this up in response to your mail.

 Please see
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mdupont/SpeedyDeletionWikia
 and

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mdupont#Speedy_backup_-_copyvios_and_attack_pages.3F

 thanks
 mike
 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 8:00 AM, John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote:


Hi Mike, with all due respect we don't have the volunteers to do what you
will need, and I doubt you would be able to recruit them yourself. Take one
example, if an article clearly qualifies for A7 deletion as not asserting
importance or significance then please don't rely on us to also check it
for copyvio. An article that asserts that a footballer has only played for
minor clubs, or that a band will be the next big thing on the Great Malvern
Grunge scene as soon as they've recruited a drummer will be deleted per A7.
 Yes we need to check that this isn't the result of vandalism, and yes
there are people not notable for their music career who are otherwise
notable as Prime Ministers etc. But if an article clearly qualifies for A7
deletion then we currently have no need to also check it for copyvio. I'm
sure if someone went through the thousands of pages that I've deleted there
would be quite a few  where copyvio could have been added as an additional
deletion reason.

Please reconsider your project. There is so much that can be done on
Wikipedia to rescue articles worth rescuing that it would be a great waste
to see time and energy diverted to unsalvageable articles.

WSC
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-22 Thread Mike Dupont
Well I am listening, am open to criticism and willing to put work into
helping,

but as l long as I can continue legally and morally I will.

But I will have to spend more time to review the known copyright violations
and I am going to make some program to watch and flag articles that are
known problems.
The for me, getting deleted articles on my favorite topics make this
worthwhile.

The main issue is not notable, and as long as wikipedia as the policy of
deleting basically everyone from parts of the world, I will have a basis to
continue.

mike

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 10:32 AM, WereSpielChequers 
werespielchequ...@gmail.com wrote:

 Please reconsider your project. There is so much that can be done on
 Wikipedia to rescue articles worth rescuing that it would be a great waste
 to see time and energy diverted to unsalvageable articles.




-- 
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
 http://flossk.orgSaving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion
http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com
Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-22 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 1:57 AM, Mike  Dupont
jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:
 The articles are hosted on archive.org, and then transfered to wikia,
 I could make some review tools, but where to host them?
 mike

Well, why do you want to host them?  Or, more specifically, why do you
want to host them somewhere other than archive.org?

I definitely understand wanting to save the content of these articles
just in case someone wants to work on fixing them.  Wikipedia's
temporary undeletion process for people who wish to do this, is simply
not convenient.  But archive.org seems to take care of that purpose
just fine.

If the *topic* is deemed notable, just the article itself is of very
poor quality, then once these have undergone manual review and
intervention, the right place to host them would be back in Wikipedia.
 It would also be nice to have a wiki for topics deemed by Wikipedia
to be not notable.  But this is a much different problem, and I
don't believe it is served well by the autopopulation of mostly very
low quality articles.

Also, sorry if this was already answered, but where are they on archive.org?

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-22 Thread Mike Dupont
Hi,
I created the wika because the archive.org is so hard to use and slow. I
want to be able to share articles with people, and I have been contacting
all the twitter users to tell them about the articles (after checking and
updating them).

I want to host them, at least the good ones to give bands and things a
place to find themselves,
or to give the non-notables a home.

In fact, a few people have already found themselves via google or some
means and have updated thier articles. I bet that this should be good
enough to prevent them from recreating the articles on wp.

The technical details are here,
https://code.google.com/p/wikiteam/wiki/SpeedyDeletion
https://code.google.com/p/wikiteam/wiki/SpeedyDeletionI created monthly
buckets, the most recent one is here:
http://archive.org/details/wikipedia-delete-v3-2012-07

If it turns out that too many articles that are copyvio are slipping
through, i could turn off the feed to wikia, yet keep the archive.org feed,
they are two separate processes.

Ideally we would agree on some tag to mark articles that would be worthy of
hosting, but not ready for wikipedia. We are pulling only some categories
directly.

mike

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote:

 On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 1:57 AM, Mike  Dupont
 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:
  The articles are hosted on archive.org, and then transfered to wikia,
  I could make some review tools, but where to host them?
  mike
 
 Well, why do you want to host them?  Or, more specifically, why do you
 want to host them somewhere other than archive.org?

 I definitely understand wanting to save the content of these articles
 just in case someone wants to work on fixing them.  Wikipedia's
 temporary undeletion process for people who wish to do this, is simply
 not convenient.  But archive.org seems to take care of that purpose
 just fine.

 If the *topic* is deemed notable, just the article itself is of very
 poor quality, then once these have undergone manual review and
 intervention, the right place to host them would be back in Wikipedia.
  It would also be nice to have a wiki for topics deemed by Wikipedia
 to be not notable.  But this is a much different problem, and I
 don't believe it is served well by the autopopulation of mostly very
 low quality articles.

 Also, sorry if this was already answered, but where are they on
 archive.org?




-- 
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
http://flossk.orgSaving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion
http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com
Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-22 Thread David Gerard
On 22 July 2012 04:16, John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote:

 Before trying to change New Page Patrol, you should try doing New Page
 Patrol for a few days.


+1

I'm broadly an inclusionist, but reading a few hours' Special:Newpages
is enough to have me breaking out the flamethrower. Anyone complaining
about new pages patrol needs to personally sample the firehose of
*mostly shit* that comes into Wikipedia.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-22 Thread David Gerard
On 22 July 2012 07:09, Mike  Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:

 The problem with new articles from these places, and like india is that
 they have a very high deletion rate, and we need a way to save them. I am
 willing to put work into the articles on bands, artists, movies, atheletes
 etc , but also websites to save them.


(this is getting a bit en:wp-specific, but anyway)

Robert Horning just raised this on the Village Pump - he wants to get
article incubation going again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Article_Incubation..._how_sould_it_be_done_or_even_if_it_should_be_done.3F

I answered that the main barrier was just having people willing to do
it. You may want to mention your interest there.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-21 Thread Mike Dupont
John, and others.

I have finally figured out a big problem with my plan. The articles for
deletion are not tagged peoperly at all. There are authors who know for a
fact that articles are mistagged and have no proper copyvio tagging, and
now they are accusing me of hosting copyvio articles. I see this a problem
in the wikipedia deletion system, if an editor knows for a fact that an
articles is in violation of copyright then they should tag it as Such. I
have written scripts to strip out artilces that are properly tagged. Lets
sit down and work out a plan for a proper system of sorting out what is not
notable, and waht is copyrightvio. I want to host the non notable artilces.
My argument is that giving non-notable bands and actors etc an outlet to be
hosted will reduce repeated reposting of articles. I have been sorting
through all these articles, contacting people and many of them are
thankful, I would be suprized if any of them would repost the deleted
article, like the Jack Psyco from .au, someone reposted his article many
many times.
Please support me in cleaning up the deletion and tagging process, I am
willing to put some work into this. I can write code as well.
Some people have asked me not to use the mailing list, but I wanted to
bring up this up in response to your mail.

Please see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mdupont/SpeedyDeletionWikia
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mdupont#Speedy_backup_-_copyvios_and_attack_pages.3F

thanks
mike
On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 8:00 AM, John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think we need to ensure that BLP deletions are tagged appropriately.

 and this wikia needs to err on the side of caution in order to avoid
 causing subjects further grief in their pursuit to remove problematic
 content from Wikipedia.  i.e. if someone jumps through all the hoops
 to *help* us remove problematic content from Wikipedia, they are not
 going to be happy to learn that the same content has appeared on Wikia
 - its confusing, and they will blame Wikipedia, and IMO they are right
 to do so as this Wikia is run by people in the Wikimedia community,
 and due to the overlap in the WMF board and Wikia board, now and
 historically.

 e.g. this AFD mentioned WP:BLP1E and was categorised into AfD
 debates (Biographical)


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alexander_Kinyua
 http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Alexander_Kinyua

 Until we are confident that BLP problems are not being imported into
 the wikia, the content shouldnt be indexed.  I assume  __NOINDEX__
 works on Wikia?

 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Newyorkbrad newyorkb...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Although I can understand the appeal of this concept, I am concerned
  that a deleted-articles wiki or site will perpetuate the publicity
  given to pages that are properly deleted from Wikipedia because they
  contain offensive personal attacks, harassment, cyberbullying,
  defamation, and BLP violations. These are not always flagged in the
  deletion grounds, especially in speedy situations (e.g. if a harassing
  or defamatory article does not assert the subject's notability, it
  will often be deleted on that ground without its being tagged as an
  attack page, etc.). This issue strikes me as extremely serious. How do
  you plan to address it?
 
  Newyorkbrad
 
  On 6/10/12, Mike  Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:
  Hi,
  I have launched speedydeletion.wika.com , it is updated every 30
 minutes
  with the proposed deletions and speedy deletion articles (not notable
 and
  hoaxes, not others).
  it is running on the en.wikipedia.org. the sources for the script are
 all
  on git hub and are a merger of pywikipediabot and the wikiteam
 codebases.
  hope you enjoy it,
  thanks,
  mike
  --
  James Michael DuPont
  Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
  Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
  Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3
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Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-21 Thread geni
On 21 July 2012 22:33, Mike  Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:
 John, and others.

 I have finally figured out a big problem with my plan. The articles for
 deletion are not tagged peoperly at all. There are authors who know for a
 fact that articles are mistagged and have no proper copyvio tagging, and
 now they are accusing me of hosting copyvio articles. I see this a problem
 in the wikipedia deletion system, if an editor knows for a fact that an
 articles is in violation of copyright then they should tag it as Such. I
 have written scripts to strip out artilces that are properly tagged. Lets
 sit down and work out a plan for a proper system of sorting out what is not
 notable, and waht is copyrightvio.

Not going to happen. The reality is that people deleting articles are
going to opt for the option that takes the least effort on their part.
And A7 beats out G12 in that case. The other issue is that OTRS, who's
opinions we care about a lot more, complain when people go the other
way (deleting things as copyvios rather than going through AFD).


-- 
geni

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-21 Thread John Vandenberg
Hi Mike,

You are going to find it difficult to find people who want to give
their time to your project, as the cost benefit ratio is very low.  If
people had more time, they would be spending it rescuing the articles
before deletion (on a non-profit wesbsite), rather than preparing them
for rescuing after deletion (on a for-profit website).

By reposting the content somewhere else, you are taking responsibility
for it.  And by hosting it, Wikia is also taking responsibility for
it.

And that responsibility requires you to work with the existing system,
warts and all.  Even good changes to the system will take a long time
to become standard practise.

Before trying to change New Page Patrol, you should try doing New Page
Patrol for a few days.

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Mike  Dupont
jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:
 John, and others.

 I have finally figured out a big problem with my plan. The articles for
 deletion are not tagged peoperly at all. There are authors who know for a
 fact that articles are mistagged and have no proper copyvio tagging, and
 now they are accusing me of hosting copyvio articles. I see this a problem
 in the wikipedia deletion system, if an editor knows for a fact that an
 articles is in violation of copyright then they should tag it as Such. I
 have written scripts to strip out artilces that are properly tagged. Lets
 sit down and work out a plan for a proper system of sorting out what is not
 notable, and waht is copyrightvio. I want to host the non notable artilces.
 My argument is that giving non-notable bands and actors etc an outlet to be
 hosted will reduce repeated reposting of articles. I have been sorting
 through all these articles, contacting people and many of them are
 thankful, I would be suprized if any of them would repost the deleted
 article, like the Jack Psyco from .au, someone reposted his article many
 many times.
 Please support me in cleaning up the deletion and tagging process, I am
 willing to put some work into this. I can write code as well.
 Some people have asked me not to use the mailing list, but I wanted to
 bring up this up in response to your mail.

 Please see
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mdupont/SpeedyDeletionWikia
 and
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mdupont#Speedy_backup_-_copyvios_and_attack_pages.3F

 thanks
 mike
 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 8:00 AM, John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think we need to ensure that BLP deletions are tagged appropriately.

 and this wikia needs to err on the side of caution in order to avoid
 causing subjects further grief in their pursuit to remove problematic
 content from Wikipedia.  i.e. if someone jumps through all the hoops
 to *help* us remove problematic content from Wikipedia, they are not
 going to be happy to learn that the same content has appeared on Wikia
 - its confusing, and they will blame Wikipedia, and IMO they are right
 to do so as this Wikia is run by people in the Wikimedia community,
 and due to the overlap in the WMF board and Wikia board, now and
 historically.

 e.g. this AFD mentioned WP:BLP1E and was categorised into AfD
 debates (Biographical)


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alexander_Kinyua
 http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Alexander_Kinyua

 Until we are confident that BLP problems are not being imported into
 the wikia, the content shouldnt be indexed.  I assume  __NOINDEX__
 works on Wikia?

 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Newyorkbrad newyorkb...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Although I can understand the appeal of this concept, I am concerned
  that a deleted-articles wiki or site will perpetuate the publicity
  given to pages that are properly deleted from Wikipedia because they
  contain offensive personal attacks, harassment, cyberbullying,
  defamation, and BLP violations. These are not always flagged in the
  deletion grounds, especially in speedy situations (e.g. if a harassing
  or defamatory article does not assert the subject's notability, it
  will often be deleted on that ground without its being tagged as an
  attack page, etc.). This issue strikes me as extremely serious. How do
  you plan to address it?
 
  Newyorkbrad
 
  On 6/10/12, Mike  Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:
  Hi,
  I have launched speedydeletion.wika.com , it is updated every 30
 minutes
  with the proposed deletions and speedy deletion articles (not notable
 and
  hoaxes, not others).
  it is running on the en.wikipedia.org. the sources for the script are
 all
  on git hub and are a merger of pywikipediabot and the wikiteam
 codebases.
  hope you enjoy it,
  thanks,
  mike
  --
  James Michael DuPont
  Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
  Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
  Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3
  ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-21 Thread Mike Dupont
The articles are hosted on archive.org, and then transfered to wikia,
I could make some review tools, but where to host them?
mike

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote:

 While I think you have a good idea (similar to one that I myself did
 several years ago, and eventually abandoned for the very problems
 you're dealing with now), I don't think putting these pages directly
 into Wikia is going to work.  If you decide to store the articles
 somewhere more private, at least until they are manually reviewed, let
 me know.  By more private I mean, at a minimum, not listed in search
 engines.

 Have you looked into hosting the articles at Internet Archive?  This
 seems like a better place than Wikia, at least before the articles are
 manually reviewed.

 On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Mike  Dupont
 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:
  John, and others.
 
  I have finally figured out a big problem with my plan. The articles for
  deletion are not tagged peoperly at all. There are authors who know for a
  fact that articles are mistagged and have no proper copyvio tagging, and
  now they are accusing me of hosting copyvio articles. I see this a
 problem
  in the wikipedia deletion system, if an editor knows for a fact that an
  articles is in violation of copyright then they should tag it as Such. I
  have written scripts to strip out artilces that are properly tagged. Lets
  sit down and work out a plan for a proper system of sorting out what is
 not
  notable, and waht is copyrightvio. I want to host the non notable
 artilces.
  My argument is that giving non-notable bands and actors etc an outlet to
 be
  hosted will reduce repeated reposting of articles. I have been sorting
  through all these articles, contacting people and many of them are
  thankful, I would be suprized if any of them would repost the deleted
  article, like the Jack Psyco from .au, someone reposted his article many
  many times.
  Please support me in cleaning up the deletion and tagging process, I am
  willing to put some work into this. I can write code as well.
  Some people have asked me not to use the mailing list, but I wanted to
  bring up this up in response to your mail.
 
  Please see
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mdupont/SpeedyDeletionWikia
  and
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mdupont#Speedy_backup_-_copyvios_and_attack_pages.3F
 
  thanks
  mike




-- 
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
http://flossk.orgSaving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion
http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com
Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-07-21 Thread Mike Dupont
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:27 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 21 July 2012 22:33, Mike  Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com
 wrote:
  John, and others.
 
  I have finally figured out a big problem with my plan. The articles for
  deletion are not tagged peoperly at all. There are authors who know for a
  fact that articles are mistagged and have no proper copyvio tagging, and
  now they are accusing me of hosting copyvio articles. I see this a
 problem
  in the wikipedia deletion system, if an editor knows for a fact that an
  articles is in violation of copyright then they should tag it as Such. I
  have written scripts to strip out artilces that are properly tagged. Lets
  sit down and work out a plan for a proper system of sorting out what is
 not
  notable, and waht is copyrightvio.

 Not going to happen. The reality is that people deleting articles are
 going to opt for the option that takes the least effort on their part.
 And A7 beats out G12 in that case.


Ok, well i understand that people dont want extra work, but I think  we can
work on some process and software. It might happend.


 The other issue is that OTRS, who's
 opinions we care about a lot more, complain when people go the other
 way (deleting things as copyvios rather than going through AFD).


Is there any way to tag them like that? can we mark them?




 --
 geni

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Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
http://flossk.orgSaving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion
http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com
Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-19 Thread David Richfield
I'm actually really shocked that the speedy deletion wiki doesn't have
a copy of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Juclandia - there's
an excellent version of the article on
http://microwiki.org.uk/index.php?title=Juclandia , though, so all is
not lost. [it seems to be a monstrously elaborate page about some
kid's bedroom kingdom, by the way.]

But seriously, my point is that you don't need to pick up the crumbs
that are swept off Wikipedia's table to allow people the space to
indulge their creative spirits.  There are other wikis that will open
their doors.

David

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-19 Thread Mike Dupont
Well, lets see the speedy deletion wiki was just launched,
15 December 2010  it was deleted. I will have to make a plan for
getting older articles, they would be possible to get, but it is
outside of our time window right now.
mike

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 9:48 AM, David Richfield
davidrichfi...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm actually really shocked that the speedy deletion wiki doesn't have
 a copy of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Juclandia - there's
 an excellent version of the article on
 http://microwiki.org.uk/index.php?title=Juclandia , though, so all is
 not lost. [it seems to be a monstrously elaborate page about some
 kid's bedroom kingdom, by the way.]

 But seriously, my point is that you don't need to pick up the crumbs
 that are swept off Wikipedia's table to allow people the space to
 indulge their creative spirits.  There are other wikis that will open
 their doors.

 David

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-13 Thread Mike Dupont
ok kim,
thanks again for your constructive feedback, and thanks to everyone who has
given input. It is great to have a supportive group of people like you to
talk to.

now i have upgraded the code, including templates and full history. It gets
all new articles not seen before every 10 minutes.
Also the uploading to the wikia is working but without the history. I think
this is a good deal. for the articles that we dont have the history for,
people can ask an admin for restoring the history if they really want it, I
dont have it for the old articles.
Here is an example new dump :
http://archive.org/download/wikipedia-delete-2012-06/wtarchive130612111041.zip

code is here github.com/h4ck3rm1k3/pywikipediabot and
github.com/h4ck3rm1k3/wikiteam

mike

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com
 wrote:

 yes, good point, and while checking this I found a problem.

 it turns out that up to now I dont have the full history, I have modified
 the extractor to pull the full version. For the other articles, I dont have
 the full history.

 mike


 On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:03 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nlwrote:

 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 05:44:40AM +, Mike Dupont wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Again the full history is available on archive.org and i think that no
 one
  is going to think that this data is from me, it is clearly marked as
 being
  from wikipedia.

 ps. It occurs to me that if the full history is available on archive.org,
 that
 linking to the relevant archive.org data might be adequate.



 sincerely,
Kim Bruning

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-12 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Tarc Meridian t...@hotmail.com wrote:

 This  has been tried before, i.e. wikialpha.org.  Pages are speedily deleted 
 for a reason, many of them quite properly so.  Moving potentially libelous 
 BLP attack pages and other sundry junk to a publicly viewable wiki is not a 
 very well-thought-out idea.

Every new article is potentially libelous.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-12 Thread Thomas Morton
This has been debated numerous times; to what extent does the attribution
have to relate to the exact contribution of each author.

A list of authors has been considered acceptable in the past (including
on-wiki).

Tom

On 12 June 2012 23:48, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 05:44:40AM +, Mike Dupont wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Again the full history is available on archive.org and i think that no
 one
  is going to think that this data is from me, it is clearly marked as
 being
  from wikipedia.


 You are very concientious, and normally this would indeed be adequate (not
 perfect,
 but definitely adequate :)

 It is adequate because wikipedia itself retains full attribution
 information in
 page history. One can follow the chain from the copy back to the wikipedia
 original
 back to the page history and voila, more than you ever wanted to know.

 The problem with deleted/hidden articles on en.wp is that the history
 information
 is also deleted/hidden; and therefore the attribution chain is broken.

 Attribution information is important for legal and open content reasons of
 course.

 Is it possible to keep a copy of page history somewhere also?

 I know the mediawiki export/import functions support this, and work
 via GET request.
 see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export

 eg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export/Train

 sincerely,
Kim Bruning

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-12 Thread Kim Bruning

In theory, yes. However, if you're fetching page dumps conforming to the schema 
at
http://www.mediawiki.org/xml/export-0.6/ 
http://www.mediawiki.org/xml/export-0.6.xsd

to some extent you've already got all the information anyway. It *almost* takes 
more work
to filter out just the authors. :-P

If you're getting page data in some different format, sure. :-)

sincerely,
Kim Bruning


On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 12:47:31AM +0100, Thomas Morton wrote:
 This has been debated numerous times; to what extent does the attribution
 have to relate to the exact contribution of each author.
 
 A list of authors has been considered acceptable in the past (including
 on-wiki).
 
 Tom
 
 On 12 June 2012 23:48, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
 
  On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 05:44:40AM +, Mike Dupont wrote:
   Hi,
  
   Again the full history is available on archive.org and i think that no
  one
   is going to think that this data is from me, it is clearly marked as
  being
   from wikipedia.
 
 
  You are very concientious, and normally this would indeed be adequate (not
  perfect,
  but definitely adequate :)
 
  It is adequate because wikipedia itself retains full attribution
  information in
  page history. One can follow the chain from the copy back to the wikipedia
  original
  back to the page history and voila, more than you ever wanted to know.
 
  The problem with deleted/hidden articles on en.wp is that the history
  information
  is also deleted/hidden; and therefore the attribution chain is broken.
 
  Attribution information is important for legal and open content reasons of
  course.
 
  Is it possible to keep a copy of page history somewhere also?
 
  I know the mediawiki export/import functions support this, and work
  via GET request.
  see
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export
 
  eg:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export/Train
 
  sincerely,
 Kim Bruning
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-12 Thread Kim Bruning
On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 05:44:40AM +, Mike Dupont wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Again the full history is available on archive.org and i think that no one
 is going to think that this data is from me, it is clearly marked as being
 from wikipedia.

ps. It occurs to me that if the full history is available on archive.org, that
linking to the relevant archive.org data might be adequate.



sincerely,
Kim Bruning

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-12 Thread Mike Dupont
yes, good point, and while checking this I found a problem.

it turns out that up to now I dont have the full history, I have modified
the extractor to pull the full version. For the other articles, I dont have
the full history.

mike


On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:03 PM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 05:44:40AM +, Mike Dupont wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Again the full history is available on archive.org and i think that no
 one
  is going to think that this data is from me, it is clearly marked as
 being
  from wikipedia.

 ps. It occurs to me that if the full history is available on archive.org,
 that
 linking to the relevant archive.org data might be adequate.



 sincerely,
Kim Bruning

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-11 Thread emijrp
Mike is the terror of deletionists.

Good work.

2012/6/10 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com

 Hi,
 I have launched speedydeletion.wika.com , it is updated every 30 minutes
 with the proposed deletions and speedy deletion articles (not notable and
 hoaxes, not others).
 it is running on the en.wikipedia.org. the sources for the script are all
 on git hub and are a merger of pywikipediabot and the wikiteam codebases.
 hope you enjoy it,
 thanks,
 mike
 --
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Projects: AVBOT http://code.google.com/p/avbot/ |
StatMediaWikihttp://statmediawiki.forja.rediris.es
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-11 Thread Thomas Morton
Indeed; and so it was...

{{facepalm}}

Tom

On 11 June 2012 17:32, Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:

 here is one that is worth keeping!
 http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Rootstrikers

 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 2:57 PM, emijrp emi...@gmail.com wrote:

  Mike is the terror of deletionists.
 
  Good work.
 
  2012/6/10 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com
 
   Hi,
   I have launched speedydeletion.wika.com , it is updated every 30
 minutes
   with the proposed deletions and speedy deletion articles (not notable
 and
   hoaxes, not others).
   it is running on the en.wikipedia.org. the sources for the script are
  all
   on git hub and are a merger of pywikipediabot and the wikiteam
 codebases.
   hope you enjoy it,
   thanks,
   mike
   --
   James Michael DuPont
   Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
   Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
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  Projects: AVBOT http://code.google.com/p/avbot/ |
  StatMediaWikihttp://statmediawiki.forja.rediris.es
  | WikiEvidens http://code.google.com/p/wikievidens/ |
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-11 Thread Andrew Gray
On 11 June 2012 08:40, Mike  Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:
 After rereading your question, it boils down to if the tags are wrong. If
 the tags are wrong we will have to deal with them on a case by case issue,
 and I see that we will have to do more finer tagging of articles to be
 deleted, I hope that this will be the outcome of my effort to see that
 articles that are properly tagged and deleted according to a fair and
 transparent set of rules. lets work on this together to make the wikipedia
 better.

There's a couple of problems here.

One is that speedy deletion tags don't often get stacked - if people
see something that fills two criteria, they'll often tag them with
just one, and usually prefer the clearer criteria, the one with less
subjectivity about interpretation. Usually, this is seen with copyvio
+ not notable = only tag for copyvio; but it also manifests itself in
the cases Brad mentions - not notable + negatively slanted = usually
tagged for notability rather than negativity. This is a problem,
because understandably most of the cases you want to *keep* are the
not-notable ones...

Secondly, some admins will delete abusive material on sight without
waiting to tag it (which is skirting around best practice, but widely
accepted for unambiguously bad content), and some people prefer to
use hand-written CSD reasons. Both of these may end up with
harder-to-interpret deletion logs (they don't contain the codes) - I'm
not sure how your system works with these.

 What is the current policy now? you have articles in dumps that contain
 these offending materials i presume if they are not that new. What is the
 difference between a dump on wikpedia and a dump on archive.org, and a dump
 on wikia?

The difference is that one is a hard-to-accidentally-stumble-across
dump, and one is a publicly readable website ;-)

I do not believe there are active moves to remove material from older
dumps. *However*, the damage from problematic material surviving in
dumps is relatively low, because most speedily deleted material tends
never to make it into a dump.

Let's assume dumps are twice-weekly. If every article tagged for
speedy deletion on creation lasts for six hours before being
removed, then there's approximately a 1/60 chance of it being around
to when the dump triggers. By contrast, around 50% of articles marked
with PROD just after creation will survive into the dump, even if
deleted, and substantially over 50% of articles put through AFD on
creation will be dumped even if deleted, because the frequency of
relisting means many of them are tagged for two weeks.

As a result, CSD material - which is where the worst content usually
is - is much less likely to get dumped than AFD material.

Some dumped abusive material does make it out onto reuse sites,
though, and it's an incredible pain to deal with - people find it a
year or two later, mirrored on an abandoned ad-farm website, and write
us distressed letters about trying to get it removed. We can't do
anything about it - these sites are usually completely uncontactable
and don't care anyway - and it's quite an unpleasant experience for
all concerned.

If you're going to expose these on wikia as well as making archive
files, I'd strongly recommend you give a clearly visible contact
address to have material removed if needed - it'll save everyone
involved lot of stress in future!

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-10 Thread Mike Dupont
well originally i wanted just not notable, but i was interested in hoaxes
personally. let me see,

http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/index.php?search=hoaxfulltext=Search

http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/index.php?search=hoaxfulltext=Searchthey
are clearly marked and might contain something interesting some day

thanks,
mike

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Richard Symonds 
richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote:

 Not quite - Mike says that  it is updated...with the proposed deletions
 and speedy deletion articles (not notable and hoaxes, *not others*).

 Non-notable articles are arguably important to keep - they serve as a basis
 for recreating the articles in future, and for easy review by non-admins.
 Hoaxes are also important to keep publicy viewable - so that we can stop
 similar ones happening again, surely?

 Richard Symonds
 Wikimedia UK
 0207 065 0992
 Disclaimer viewable at
 http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Email_disclaimer
 Visit http://www.wikimedia.org.uk/ and @wikimediauk



 On 10 June 2012 18:29, Juergen Fenn schneeschme...@googlemail.com wrote:

  2012/6/10 Mike  Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com:
 
   I have launched speedydeletion.wika.com , it is updated every 30
 minutes
   with the proposed deletions and speedy deletion articles (not notable
 and
   hoaxes, not others).
 
  Speedydeleted articles are either no articles at all, thus not worth
  discussing, or they are copyright infrigements. I am sorry to say that
  I do not happen to understand why you collect those pages in a
  separate wiki.
 
  Regards,
  Jürgen.
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-10 Thread Mike Dupont
On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Kirill Lokshin kirill.loks...@gmail.comwrote:

 This is where I think things become slightly problematic.  There are, in
 broad terms, two categories of hoaxes: those which are fundamentally
 harmless (these typically being of the did you know that 'gullible' isn't
 in the dictionary variety), and those which have the potential to be
 harmful (including, but not limited to, false statements about drugs,
 crimes, politically explosive issues, etc.).  The speedy deletion system
 makes no real attempt to distinguish between these (with the exception of
 blatant attacks on living people, which have their own deletion tag), but
 retaining the second category in a publicly-viewable (and
 publicly-searcheable?) form is probably not desirable.


I am willing to delete articles from the wikia, they are also archived on
archive.org.
it would be nice to work out a detailed tagging system to work out what may
be archived and what not.
We can remove categories and add them.

But lets look at some of these,
http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Ipod_5.5_generation this looks like
someone who is providing infomation in the wrong way, but could be valid.
http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Trantlers this is funny and would like
to keep it and add a picture of it, maybe to a humor section. this one too
http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Trantlas

http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Willyfor this is strange , but might
be some meme or urban legend. I guess unencylopedia.
http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Like_Dis_Like_Dat same here, this is
also unencylopedia material.

now this looks like a hoax , and could be deleted, but also unencylopedia
stuff.
http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Aman_hadid





personally I am interested in non notable articles, my experience with
dealing with encouraging editors and collection creative commons licensed
information
on places that are not very notable like villages in kosovo could be helped
with these articles.
if we can find authors who are willing to write about non notable topics,
maybe we can collect them and categorize them.
this could be a recruiting mechanism and also provide good basic data and
maybe new contributors for wikitravel and openstreetmap.
with a staging system like this speedydeletion wikia you will have a way to
demote articles to the speedy deletion purgatory where they might redeem
themselves.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] speedydeletion.wika.com lauched

2012-06-10 Thread Nathan
What happens to your system if an article is deleted from Wikipedia, a new
article is posted again under the same name, and then that one is also
deleted?

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 2:55 PM, Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com
 wrote:

 On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Kirill Lokshin kirill.loks...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  This is where I think things become slightly problematic.  There are, in
  broad terms, two categories of hoaxes: those which are fundamentally
  harmless (these typically being of the did you know that 'gullible'
 isn't
  in the dictionary variety), and those which have the potential to be
  harmful (including, but not limited to, false statements about drugs,
  crimes, politically explosive issues, etc.).  The speedy deletion system
  makes no real attempt to distinguish between these (with the exception of
  blatant attacks on living people, which have their own deletion tag), but
  retaining the second category in a publicly-viewable (and
  publicly-searcheable?) form is probably not desirable.
 
 
 I am willing to delete articles from the wikia, they are also archived on
 archive.org.
 it would be nice to work out a detailed tagging system to work out what may
 be archived and what not.
 We can remove categories and add them.

 But lets look at some of these,
 http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Ipod_5.5_generation this looks like
 someone who is providing infomation in the wrong way, but could be valid.
 http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Trantlers this is funny and would
 like
 to keep it and add a picture of it, maybe to a humor section. this one too
 http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Trantlas

 http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Willyfor this is strange , but might
 be some meme or urban legend. I guess unencylopedia.
 http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Like_Dis_Like_Dat same here, this is
 also unencylopedia material.

 now this looks like a hoax , and could be deleted, but also unencylopedia
 stuff.
 http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Aman_hadid





 personally I am interested in non notable articles, my experience with
 dealing with encouraging editors and collection creative commons licensed
 information
 on places that are not very notable like villages in kosovo could be helped
 with these articles.
 if we can find authors who are willing to write about non notable topics,
 maybe we can collect them and categorize them.
 this could be a recruiting mechanism and also provide good basic data and
 maybe new contributors for wikitravel and openstreetmap.
 with a staging system like this speedydeletion wikia you will have a way to
 demote articles to the speedy deletion purgatory where they might redeem
 themselves.
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