Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-04 Thread zada zadti
It is interesting to see that not a single concerned person from WMF is
commenting in this thread.

WMF has a new ED now. Lets take this opportunity to raise the issues from
India to her directly before the WMF staff does her formatting !! Lets
flood her mail box 

zZ


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary
 structure.


 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure

 Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF?

 I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate
 to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these.

 Please point if any such campaign already exists.

 Ravi

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-03 Thread Pradeep Mohandas
Hi,

Do you not think that it would be better to ask that donations be used to
only fund certain aspects of the movement - for eg to power the servers
etc. than to ask for a blanket ban on such donations?

Your comments are focused on one aspect of the movement which as
Wikimedians we should be able to sort out through dialogue. I know how
frustrating this can be - especially being volunteers with other things
that demand our time and attention. Losing your cool and venting your
frustration achieves little and it puts off other people from contributing
to these discussions.

I believe this is an important discussion to have for us as a community. By
the nature of the Internet, we go beyond physical geographies. I hope we do
not restrict this down to one nation.

Warm regards,
Pradeep

On Wednesday, 30 April 2014, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary
 structure.


 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure

 Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF?

 I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate
 to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these.

 Please point if any such campaign already exists.

 Ravi



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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-03 Thread sibi kanagaraj
On May 1, 2014 6:32 PM, arun vm arunweb...@gmail.com wrote:

 Why not wikimeedia cant grow without forighn funds.

Its foreign fund until you see yourself alienated from the movement. You
see it as community fund if you feel you are part of the movement.

I  see that Ravi and others are worried that funding from WMF is not
producing or will not produce adequate results when given in opaque manner
to NGO  , which gives out minutes of meeting after 2 and half months .  The
supposedly not for profit  NGO  is giving its justification for having
people on pay roll with disproportionately high salaries . Lets wait for
FDC. Jumping into conclusions or sweeping statements won't help any one .

Almost all
 technichal platforms  are developed+code is gnu licenced
 And all most all contents in web is licenced under creative commons
 licence. and in india we have 110 millions of population.So many
 indians are trained in global standards.

 I thinks this is a time to think a complete indian wiki.

What do you want to do in a complete Indian Wikipedia ? Write about India !
?
Wikipedia as I know is a global movement. Please don't allow petty
interests to be in way of movements .


 This is what i felt that's all.

 cheers.

 On 4/30/14, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:
  I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of
funds
  to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is
  putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if
  you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no
  longer *exist*.  I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to
  consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for
hyperbolic
  calls to start a donation boycott.  If this were truly just about
  profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia
  movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous.
 
  ---
  Kevin Gorman
 
 
  On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com
wrote:
 
  Kevin,
 
  It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about
integrity.
 
  You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it,
then
  it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest.
 
  You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far
above
  for-proft standards.
 
  And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we
  can't
  measure that yet.
 
  CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its
  staff
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q19
disproportionate
  to industry standards and their own institution's salary
  structure. Yet, 51.26% of their
  budget
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Heads
goes
  to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants
  (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to
the
  FDC
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_the_FDC
on
  rising cost of institutionalization.
 
  This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own
the
  responsibility of fixing it.
 
  Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go
around
  wasting it.
 
  Ravi
 
 
 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-03 Thread sibi kanagaraj
On May 1, 2014 6:32 PM, arun vm arunweb...@gmail.com wrote:

 HOme work?.
 I hate it from my school days :)

 I just want to tell a story about anna hasare that movement is
 completly based on online acttivitys such peopels are all from india
 and kejariwalls AAP is completly based on online activitys

Being wrong with grammar  is absolutely fine . But please take care to
mention names properly.



 Are you peopels are able to accept india is already matured in the
 case of online activity?.


 Now think why there is no peopels in WIKI apart from some south indians?.


What do you want to say here?


 On 5/1/14, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi Karthik -
 
  I'll step back from the conversation after this, but did want to say
that
  although I haven't been active in many discussions on this list, I've
read
  almost every conversation on every public list related to the Wikimedia
  movement's activities in India for the last several years, as well as
those
  private lists which I have access to, so I'm not coming in completely
out
  of the blue (including a lot of the discussions and frustrations around
the
  catalyst program and how it was split off.)  I'm not actively trying to
  support CIS's practices, or say they should get their entire grant - I
  haven't evaluated it on anywhere near an adequate basis to have an
opinion
  on it (I'm thoroughly obsessive about evaluating grants.) I do think
it's
  significant that they indicated an active desire to fix them over time
  while not being unfair to their current employees - WMDC's most recent
  grant brought up some questions about how Wikimedia movement affiliates
  should be treating employees, and I think it will probably be necessary
to
  come up with movement wide standards at some point, where CIS may
present
  valuable guidance of a slightly different sort.
 
  I understand where Ravi's frustrations are coming from (and I'm pretty
sure
  I've spoken more with WMIN members in my movement work than people
  affiliated with CIS,) I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with
  advanced permissions on multiple projects actively suggest an action
that,
  if successful, would not be good, and even if not successful, won't be
  good.  I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive
  directions, like improving local fundraising ability, or in
participating
  on some of the meta-movement discussions that are happening right now
about
  the FDC and its future, how we should expect movement affiliate
employees
  to be treated, etc.  (Although I also can't blame anyone who feels a
need
  to step back out of frustration; the direction of Ravi's email just
  concerned me.)  I think it would even probably to do detailed
post-mortems
  as has started for the Belfer WiR posting to ensure that lessons learned
  from past mistakes are not repeated (it's worth noting that many of
those
  involved in splitting off the catalyst programs have left the
Foundation,
  and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what
mistakes
  they may've made, may have left with them without being recorded.)
 
  Best,
  Kevin Gorman
 
 
  On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Karthik Nadar
  karthik...@gmail.comwrote:
 
  When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if
  community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to
  foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of
Indian
  community either defending or chasing.
 
  I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not
  keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a
project
  with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well
  versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities
  have
  dropped down so tremendously since past two years.
 
  Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in
  support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But,
  seriously
  and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members
not
  from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General
  comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first.
 
 
  Hi Ravi,
 
  I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the
  movement in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia
India
  and deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia
India
  currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe
  that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from
the
  community.
 
  WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess
here.
  I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they
have
  requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions
  are
  mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for
that.
 
  Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-03 Thread ansuman
I totally agree with Ravi, Pradeep, and Karthik.

It doesn't sound nice to campaign against donations to WMF, but this is
what going to happen ultimately.

The way donations have been wasted, not only WMF's but donations of other
NGOs, who'd want to donate to NGOs after seeing this? It's a shame.

Ansuman
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-01 Thread Dhaval S. Vyas
Hi Kevin,

// Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's total staff budget is a
little shy of $300k a year.  The FDC is currently handing out what, $6m USD
a year?  Even if CIS was entirely funded out of the FDC (and it isn't,
their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's pretty much a drop in the
bucket of available funds.//

Do you suppose that because WMF  FDC operate in currency called USD, which
has a reasonably high value in Forex market than the currency called INR,
in which this grant is going to be utilised, makes it valid to fund in
unethical way? I work in a huge company who outsources its work to India
and Poland just for the fact that salary structures and costs are quite low
in those countries.

I can't buy your argument, with all due respect to your experience and
knowledge, that because it is insignificant ammount, WMF should not think
about unreasonable salaries. If that is the point, when WMIN's grant was
reviewed, why was this point forgotten? Or are you advising that at that
time WMF did not hand out such huge (6 million USD) a year?

Dhaval
On 30 Apr 2014 16:36, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:

 Like Gerard, I'm quite confused at the purpose of trying to get people to
 stop donating to the Wikimedia Foundation, and am a bit disappointed to see
 such a suggestion coming from someone who holds advanced rights on some of
 the projects. I also note that the response of CIS-A2K's executive director
 notes that if it is determined there is a problem in terms of their salary
 structure, it is one he wants to address, even if it may take some time to
 do so because he (reasonably, imo) doesn't want to cut the salaries of
 current employees steeply.  Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's
 total staff budget is a little shy of $300k a year.  The FDC is currently
 handing out what, $6m USD a year?  Even if CIS was entirely funded out of
 the FDC (and it isn't, their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's
 pretty much a drop in the bucket of available funds.

 It's been made clear that just because CIS may be awarded funds doesn't
 mean that WMIN won't also be awarded funds, and that the entities aren't in
 direct competition with each other.  Trying to do something like get people
 to boycott donating to the WMF because CIS is asking for a fraction of a
 percent of WMF's total budget and something like 5% of available FDC funds
 to be given to them is pointless if you don't succeed and shooting yourself
 in the foot if you do succeed.  If you were partially successful, your own
 funding in future years would likely be diminished due to less overall
 availability of funds, and if you were fully successful... well, Wikipedia
 wouldn't exist.

 Best,
 Kevin Gorman


 On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Gerard Meijssen 
 gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hoi,
 What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between
 the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less
 available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money.
 When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India.

 When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the
 likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of
 its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you
 spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to
 lose. This is a great way to lose everything..

 Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain?
 Thanks,
   GerardM


 On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary
 structure.


 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure

 Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF?

 I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate
 to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these.

 Please point if any such campaign already exists.

 Ravi

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-01 Thread Karthik Nadar
Hi Kevin,

You completely took it wrong. The intention was not to stop you, but to get
enough people who might be little hesitant to come here and share their
words. I would repeat the same that your comments are always welcome. :-)


Just to add to more what Dhaval has said and I have indicated the same on
the meta discussion page; I would prescribly like to know why the staffs at
CIS-A2K are not paid as per Indian standards. You'll never see such a money
going out in India at non-profit standards. I will not like to see an
example of Reliance or Tata here, as they have sufficient money and
resources to back-up everything in worst case situations.


Thanks,
Karthik Nadar.

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas dsv...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Kevin,

 // Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's total staff budget is a
 little shy of $300k a year.  The FDC is currently handing out what, $6m USD
 a year?  Even if CIS was entirely funded out of the FDC (and it isn't,
 their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's pretty much a drop in the
 bucket of available funds.//

 Do you suppose that because WMF  FDC operate in currency called USD,
 which has a reasonably high value in Forex market than the currency called
 INR, in which this grant is going to be utilised, makes it valid to fund in
 unethical way? I work in a huge company who outsources its work to India
 and Poland just for the fact that salary structures and costs are quite low
 in those countries.

 I can't buy your argument, with all due respect to your experience and
 knowledge, that because it is insignificant ammount, WMF should not think
 about unreasonable salaries. If that is the point, when WMIN's grant was
 reviewed, why was this point forgotten? Or are you advising that at that
 time WMF did not hand out such huge (6 million USD) a year?

 Dhaval
 On 30 Apr 2014 16:36, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:

 Like Gerard, I'm quite confused at the purpose of trying to get people to
 stop donating to the Wikimedia Foundation, and am a bit disappointed to see
 such a suggestion coming from someone who holds advanced rights on some of
 the projects. I also note that the response of CIS-A2K's executive director
 notes that if it is determined there is a problem in terms of their salary
 structure, it is one he wants to address, even if it may take some time to
 do so because he (reasonably, imo) doesn't want to cut the salaries of
 current employees steeply.  Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's
 total staff budget is a little shy of $300k a year.  The FDC is currently
 handing out what, $6m USD a year?  Even if CIS was entirely funded out of
 the FDC (and it isn't, their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's
 pretty much a drop in the bucket of available funds.

 It's been made clear that just because CIS may be awarded funds doesn't
 mean that WMIN won't also be awarded funds, and that the entities aren't in
 direct competition with each other.  Trying to do something like get people
 to boycott donating to the WMF because CIS is asking for a fraction of a
 percent of WMF's total budget and something like 5% of available FDC funds
 to be given to them is pointless if you don't succeed and shooting yourself
 in the foot if you do succeed.  If you were partially successful, your own
 funding in future years would likely be diminished due to less overall
 availability of funds, and if you were fully successful... well, Wikipedia
 wouldn't exist.

 Best,
 Kevin Gorman


 On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Gerard Meijssen 
 gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hoi,
 What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation
 between the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee
 less available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less
 money. When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India.

 When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the
 likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of
 its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you
 spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to
 lose. This is a great way to lose everything..

 Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain?
 Thanks,
   GerardM


 On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary
 structure.


 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure

 Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF?

 I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to
 donate to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these.

 Please point if any such campaign already exists.

 Ravi

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-01 Thread Ravishankar
Kevin,

1. WMF has questioned the salary rationale for WMIN staff.

See

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:PEG/WM_IN/Program_Grant_Quarter_1_2013#Measurement_system_for_outreach_events_and_salary_rationale

and

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:WM_IN/Bootstrap_Grant#A_clearer_definition_of_the_executive_manager.27s_role

before.

But, I see no such questions ever asked for CIS.

To provide you the context:

The annual salary of CIS-A2K program director alone is 2,400,000 INR per
year which is 29% more than the WMIN's whole annual budget for last year
which is 1,848,736 INR.

T. Sowmyan who did a wonderful job as WMIN's executive manager got paid
504,000 INR a year.

This is less than the amount CIS-A2K pays to its advisor Dr. Tejaswini
Niranjana which is 528,000 INR. She gets this paid a s a distinguished
fellow of CIS for which she is not expected to do anything.

2. FDC has commented that WMIN aiming to go from 0.5 staff to 3 staff is
600% growth. But, I have seen no such comments on CIS having 5 full time
staff to begin with and planning to add 2 more in the coming year.

3. CIS-A2K has applied for an institutional development fee of 1,673,314
INR which is almost 50% of WMIN's annual budget. And CIS-A2K has the
liberty to spend it anyway they want.

If this is not discrimination or double standard, then what is this?

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-01 Thread Pradeep Mohandas
Hi,

I think I should write more bluntly to put this point across. For the
quantum of money spent, I'd like to see a WHOLE LOT more than what is on
offer now.

I differ from the position Ravi has taken of wanting to stop funding etc.,

We, in India, have been stung once by the work of India Program. What you
see here is just a case of once bitten twice shy. We are being extra
cautious here because while CIS can walk away from failed programmes (since
even did WMF India programs), leaving the community to clean up the mess.

No efforts have been made since to rebuild the community that once left the
movement after a similar storm. This is the reason why you see no
engagement from the community with CIS' early efforts here. Can you see any
documented community feedback? All work seem to have happened off-wiki and
the low trust environment in which they worked led to differing versions of
the same conversations happening.

Backstage conversations, undocumented meetings, lack of transparency have
only worsened the situation. You see conversations where WMF staff daring
WMIN to make certain things public and counter accusations and accusations
flying.

Gerard is right. The first thing that needs to be done is to build the
community - the people. The situation as is inspires no one. Frankly, each
individual left on his own home computer and his own passion will have
accomplished the same as we have. We all need to become Wikipedians again.

Warm regards,
Pradeep Mohandas

On Wednesday, 30 April 2014, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hoi,
 What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between
 the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less
 available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money.
 When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India.

 When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the
 likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of
 its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you
 spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to
 lose. This is a great way to lose everything..

 Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain?
 Thanks,
   GerardM


 On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar 
 ravidre...@gmail.comjavascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ravidre...@gmail.com');
  wrote:

 Hi,

 CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary
 structure.


 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure

 Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF?

 I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate
 to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these.

 Please point if any such campaign already exists.

 Ravi

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-01 Thread arun vm
Why not wikimeedia cant grow without forighn funds.Almost all
technichal platforms  are developed+code is gnu licenced
And all most all contents in web is licenced under creative commons
licence. and in india we have 110 millions of population.So many
indians are trained in global standards.

I thinks this is a time to think a complete indian wiki.

This is what i felt that's all.

cheers.

On 4/30/14, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:
 I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds
 to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is
 putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if
 you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no
 longer *exist*.  I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to
 consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for hyperbolic
 calls to start a donation boycott.  If this were truly just about
 profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia
 movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous.

 ---
 Kevin Gorman


 On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Kevin,

 It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity.

 You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then
 it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest.

 You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above
 for-proft standards.

 And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we
 can't
 measure that yet.

 CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its
 staffhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q19disproportionate
 to industry standards and their own institution's salary
 structure. Yet, 51.26% of their
 budgethttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Headsgoes
 to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants
 (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the
 FDChttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_the_FDCon
 rising cost of institutionalization.

 This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the
 responsibility of fixing it.

 Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around
 wasting it.

 Ravi



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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-01 Thread arun vm
HOme work?.
I hate it from my school days :)

I just want to tell a story about anna hasare that movement is
completly based on online acttivitys such peopels are all from india
and kejariwalls AAP is completly based on online activitys


Are you peopels are able to accept india is already matured in the
case of online activity?.

Now think why there is no peopels in WIKI apart from some south indians?.


On 5/1/14, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Karthik -

 I'll step back from the conversation after this, but did want to say that
 although I haven't been active in many discussions on this list, I've read
 almost every conversation on every public list related to the Wikimedia
 movement's activities in India for the last several years, as well as those
 private lists which I have access to, so I'm not coming in completely out
 of the blue (including a lot of the discussions and frustrations around the
 catalyst program and how it was split off.)  I'm not actively trying to
 support CIS's practices, or say they should get their entire grant - I
 haven't evaluated it on anywhere near an adequate basis to have an opinion
 on it (I'm thoroughly obsessive about evaluating grants.) I do think it's
 significant that they indicated an active desire to fix them over time
 while not being unfair to their current employees - WMDC's most recent
 grant brought up some questions about how Wikimedia movement affiliates
 should be treating employees, and I think it will probably be necessary to
 come up with movement wide standards at some point, where CIS may present
 valuable guidance of a slightly different sort.

 I understand where Ravi's frustrations are coming from (and I'm pretty sure
 I've spoken more with WMIN members in my movement work than people
 affiliated with CIS,) I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with
 advanced permissions on multiple projects actively suggest an action that,
 if successful, would not be good, and even if not successful, won't be
 good.  I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive
 directions, like improving local fundraising ability, or in participating
 on some of the meta-movement discussions that are happening right now about
 the FDC and its future, how we should expect movement affiliate employees
 to be treated, etc.  (Although I also can't blame anyone who feels a need
 to step back out of frustration; the direction of Ravi's email just
 concerned me.)  I think it would even probably to do detailed post-mortems
 as has started for the Belfer WiR posting to ensure that lessons learned
 from past mistakes are not repeated (it's worth noting that many of those
 involved in splitting off the catalyst programs have left the Foundation,
 and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what mistakes
 they may've made, may have left with them without being recorded.)

 Best,
 Kevin Gorman


 On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Karthik Nadar
 karthik...@gmail.comwrote:

 When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if
 community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to
 foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of Indian
 community either defending or chasing.

 I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not
 keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a project
 with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well
 versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities
 have
 dropped down so tremendously since past two years.

 Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in
 support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But,
 seriously
 and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members not
 from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General
 comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first.


 Hi Ravi,

 I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the
 movement in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia India
 and deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia India
 currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe
 that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from the
 community.

 WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess here.
 I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they have
 requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions
 are
 mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for that.

 Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF created
 such a mess out of it. When A2K was started, WMIN had to no chance to
 voice
 out for or against it.



 Please note:  I don't have any personal intentions against CIS. They have
 been so open and helpful to WMIN. Its the WMF attitude towards its focus
 in
 India that 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-05-01 Thread Hari Prasad Nadig
Pradeep's email sums up the scenario pretty well. I completely agree with
the points he's put forth.

It is a very sad situation.

As for Ravi, being a long-time member of Wikimedia community in India, I
can understand where he comes from while evidently seeming to obstruct the
funding. All I can say seeing him from a distance is that his intentions at
the end of it look good.

His commitment to the movement seems very strong. He's obviously thinking
long term about the movement in India.

On 30 April 2014 15:33, Pradeep Mohandas pradeep.mohan...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 I think I should write more bluntly to put this point across. For the
 quantum of money spent, I'd like to see a WHOLE LOT more than what is on
 offer now.

 I differ from the position Ravi has taken of wanting to stop funding etc.,

 We, in India, have been stung once by the work of India Program. What you
 see here is just a case of once bitten twice shy. We are being extra
 cautious here because while CIS can walk away from failed programmes (since
 even did WMF India programs), leaving the community to clean up the mess.

 No efforts have been made since to rebuild the community that once left
 the movement after a similar storm. This is the reason why you see no
 engagement from the community with CIS' early efforts here. Can you see any
 documented community feedback? All work seem to have happened off-wiki and
 the low trust environment in which they worked led to differing versions of
 the same conversations happening.

 Backstage conversations, undocumented meetings, lack of transparency have
 only worsened the situation. You see conversations where WMF staff daring
 WMIN to make certain things public and counter accusations and accusations
 flying.

 Gerard is right. The first thing that needs to be done is to build the
 community - the people. The situation as is inspires no one. Frankly, each
 individual left on his own home computer and his own passion will have
 accomplished the same as we have. We all need to become Wikipedians again.

 Warm regards,
 Pradeep Mohandas



-- 
Hari Prasad Nadig
http://hpnadig.net
http://twitter.com/hpnadig
http://flickr.com/hpnadig
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-04-30 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between
the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less
available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money.
When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India.

When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the
likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of
its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you
spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to
lose. This is a great way to lose everything..

Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain?
Thanks,
  GerardM


On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary
 structure.


 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure

 Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF?

 I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate
 to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these.

 Please point if any such campaign already exists.

 Ravi

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-04-30 Thread Ravishankar
Gerard,

Thanks for the carrots, sticks and snake oil.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Long-term_organisational_plans.3F

makes it clear that CIS-A2K is not going to exit anytime soon and they will
compete.

Even competition is fine. But compete on level playing grounds.

I trust WMIN will grow based on it's stengths and not based on false hopes.

We also have communities that keep growing without major institutional
support.

End of CIS-A2K is not the end of Wikimedia in India.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-04-30 Thread Kevin Gorman
Like Gerard, I'm quite confused at the purpose of trying to get people to
stop donating to the Wikimedia Foundation, and am a bit disappointed to see
such a suggestion coming from someone who holds advanced rights on some of
the projects. I also note that the response of CIS-A2K's executive director
notes that if it is determined there is a problem in terms of their salary
structure, it is one he wants to address, even if it may take some time to
do so because he (reasonably, imo) doesn't want to cut the salaries of
current employees steeply.  Looking at the table, it looks like CIS-A2K's
total staff budget is a little shy of $300k a year.  The FDC is currently
handing out what, $6m USD a year?  Even if CIS was entirely funded out of
the FDC (and it isn't, their APG request is for less than $300k,) that's
pretty much a drop in the bucket of available funds.

It's been made clear that just because CIS may be awarded funds doesn't
mean that WMIN won't also be awarded funds, and that the entities aren't in
direct competition with each other.  Trying to do something like get people
to boycott donating to the WMF because CIS is asking for a fraction of a
percent of WMF's total budget and something like 5% of available FDC funds
to be given to them is pointless if you don't succeed and shooting yourself
in the foot if you do succeed.  If you were partially successful, your own
funding in future years would likely be diminished due to less overall
availability of funds, and if you were fully successful... well, Wikipedia
wouldn't exist.

Best,
Kevin Gorman


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Gerard Meijssen
gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hoi,
 What is unclear in the response of Asaf that there is no relation between
 the money received by CIS and the Indian chapter? There is no rupee less
 available to India when either CIS or the Indian chapter gets less money.
 When you spoil it for CIS, you spoil it for India.

 When the Indian chapter finds it in itself to cooperate with CIS, the
 likelyhood is that it will inherit its programs and budget at the end of
 its run. With your campaign to stop asking people to donate to the WMF, you
 spoil it for both. It is NOT a zero sum game and you have everything to
 lose. This is a great way to lose everything..

 Ravi what is your motivation, how do you gain?
 Thanks,
   GerardM


 On 30 April 2014 10:07, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 CIS-A2K has officially stated that it won't fix their erratic salary
 structure.


 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Reply_about_salary_structure

 Why should Wikimedia donors pay for the mistakes of the WMF?

 I am thinking if we should start campaigning asking people not to donate
 to WMF citing wasteful expenditures like these.

 Please point if any such campaign already exists.

 Ravi

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-04-30 Thread Ravishankar
Kevin,

It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity.

You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then it
is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest.

You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above
for-proft standards.

And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we can't
measure that yet.

CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its
staffhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q19disproportionate
to industry standards and their own institution's salary
structure. Yet, 51.26% of their
budgethttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Headsgoes
to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants
(line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to
the 
FDChttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_the_FDCon
rising cost of institutionalization.

This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the
responsibility of fixing it.

Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around
wasting it.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-04-30 Thread Kevin Gorman
I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds
to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is
putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if
you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no
longer *exist*.  I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to
consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for hyperbolic
calls to start a donation boycott.  If this were truly just about
profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia
movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous.

---
Kevin Gorman


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Kevin,

 It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity.

 You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then
 it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest.

 You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above
 for-proft standards.

 And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we can't
 measure that yet.

 CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its 
 staffhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q19disproportionate
  to industry standards and their own institution's salary
 structure. Yet, 51.26% of their 
 budgethttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Headsgoes
  to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants
 (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the
 FDChttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_the_FDCon
  rising cost of institutionalization.

 This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the
 responsibility of fixing it.

 Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around
 wasting it.

 Ravi



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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-04-30 Thread Karthik Nadar
When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if
community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to
foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of Indian
community either defending or chasing.

I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not
keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a project
with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well
versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities have
dropped down so tremendously since past two years.

Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in
support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But, seriously
and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members not
from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General
comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first.


Hi Ravi,

I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the movement
in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia India and
deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia India
currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe
that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from the
community.

WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess here.
I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they have
requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions are
mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for that.

Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF created such
a mess out of it. When A2K was started, WMIN had to no chance to voice out
for or against it.



Please note:  I don't have any personal intentions against CIS. They have
been so open and helpful to WMIN. Its the WMF attitude towards its focus in
India that creates trouble and mess. Thanks to Them!



Thanks,
Karthik Nadar.


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:

 I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds
 to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is
 putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if
 you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no
 longer *exist*.  I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in to
 consideration when looking at CIS's request, there's no need for hyperbolic
 calls to start a donation boycott.  If this were truly just about
 profligate spending, there's probably a hundred things in the Wikimedia
 movement you could latch on to that are more outrageous.

 ---
 Kevin Gorman


 On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Kevin,

 It isn't about the exact numbers and percentages. It is about integrity.

 You accept that you are getting over paid and yet you won't fix it, then
 it is putting your personal interest above the movement's interest.

 You call yourself a non-proft and yet you pay a salary that is far above
 for-proft standards.

 And when we ask for results or performance analysis, you say that we
 can't measure that yet.

 CIS acknowledges that it is over paying its 
 staffhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q19disproportionate
  to industry standards and their own institution's salary
 structure. Yet, 51.26% of their 
 budgethttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Headsgoes
  to payments towards full time staff, resource persons and consultants
 (line items 1, 7 and 11.2). This is against the guidelines issued to the
 FDChttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2013-04-18#Guidance_for_the_FDCon
  rising cost of institutionalization.

 This inflated structure is a mistake created by WMF and it should own the
 responsibility of fixing it.

 Just because movement funds are available in plenty, you don't go around
 wasting it.

 Ravi



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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-04-30 Thread Kevin Gorman
Hi Karthik -

I'll step back from the conversation after this, but did want to say that
although I haven't been active in many discussions on this list, I've read
almost every conversation on every public list related to the Wikimedia
movement's activities in India for the last several years, as well as those
private lists which I have access to, so I'm not coming in completely out
of the blue (including a lot of the discussions and frustrations around the
catalyst program and how it was split off.)  I'm not actively trying to
support CIS's practices, or say they should get their entire grant - I
haven't evaluated it on anywhere near an adequate basis to have an opinion
on it (I'm thoroughly obsessive about evaluating grants.) I do think it's
significant that they indicated an active desire to fix them over time
while not being unfair to their current employees - WMDC's most recent
grant brought up some questions about how Wikimedia movement affiliates
should be treating employees, and I think it will probably be necessary to
come up with movement wide standards at some point, where CIS may present
valuable guidance of a slightly different sort.

I understand where Ravi's frustrations are coming from (and I'm pretty sure
I've spoken more with WMIN members in my movement work than people
affiliated with CIS,) I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with
advanced permissions on multiple projects actively suggest an action that,
if successful, would not be good, and even if not successful, won't be
good.  I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive
directions, like improving local fundraising ability, or in participating
on some of the meta-movement discussions that are happening right now about
the FDC and its future, how we should expect movement affiliate employees
to be treated, etc.  (Although I also can't blame anyone who feels a need
to step back out of frustration; the direction of Ravi's email just
concerned me.)  I think it would even probably to do detailed post-mortems
as has started for the Belfer WiR posting to ensure that lessons learned
from past mistakes are not repeated (it's worth noting that many of those
involved in splitting off the catalyst programs have left the Foundation,
and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what mistakes
they may've made, may have left with them without being recorded.)

Best,
Kevin Gorman


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Karthik Nadar karthik...@gmail.comwrote:

 When its about the Indian Community, I would further appreciate if
 community members from India write in here. There seems to be more to
 foreign members defending CIS-A2K grant while it should be more of Indian
 community either defending or chasing.

 I think Gerard needs to understand the Indian Community from depth; not
 keep on defending CIS-A2K just because you were supposed to run a project
 with them. The volunteer community here can also do that. We have well
 versed Wikidata contributors. Please see how the volunteer activities have
 dropped down so tremendously since past two years.

 Everyone's comment on the discussion is appreciated; doesn't matters in
 support or in contrast againsy the FDC proposal of CIS-A2K. But, seriously
 and on first basis, it should be coming from Indian community members not
 from anyone who doesn't understand the current scenario here. General
 comments from anyone is welcome, but please do some home-work first.


 Hi Ravi,

 I'm sure campaigning against donations to Wikimedia will bring the
 movement in bad light; but something like campaigning for Wikimedia India
 and deteriorating its dependency on WMF will be awesome. Wikimedia India
 currently needs some legal help to initiate after which we believe
 that this is something needs to be achieved with strong support from the
 community.

 WMF has already decided that it wants to create more and more mess here.
 I'm sure to see that the CIS-A2K will get almost 100% for what they have
 requested for [maybe more :P]. Things are all scripted and discussions are
 mere drama. Creation of such a project is itself a great proof for that.

 Another example is: When first employee of WMIN was hired, WMF created
 such a mess out of it. When A2K was started, WMIN had to no chance to voice
 out for or against it.



 Please note:  I don't have any personal intentions against CIS. They have
 been so open and helpful to WMIN. Its the WMF attitude towards its focus in
 India that creates trouble and mess. Thanks to Them!



 Thanks,
 Karthik Nadar.


 On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:

 I would equally suggest that trying to cut off or limit the flow of funds
 to the movement because you're upset that someone is being overpaid is
 putting your personal interest above the movement's interest. I mean, if
 you were literally successful in your stated goal, the movement would no
 longer *exist*.  I'm sure the FDC will take relevant factors in 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] A campaign for stopping donations to Wikimedia

2014-04-30 Thread Ravishankar
Kevin,

// I just wanted to speak up when I saw someone with advanced permissions
on multiple projects actively suggest an action that, if successful, would
not be good, and even if not successful, won't be good.//

My criticism is not different from what Sue Gardner, WMF Executive director
says here:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/08/wikipedia_foundation_money_in_wrong_place/

I am speaking on behalf of the community that edits, the people who donate.
The community is getting demotivated and the donor money is getting wasted.
And my personal interest is to stop that.





*What is CIS's personal interest?The more bloated the grant, the more money
they get through 10% institutional development fee which they can spend
anwyay they want.*
*Higher the salary, the current employees of CIS can pay their bank loans. *

Huh, organizations down size, resize, fire employees all the time.

If CIS-A2K employees are worthy of what they are getting paid, they should
have no problem finding a better job.

Or, if they are at least 1/10th committed to the movement, they should be
able to work under normal salaries too.

If this is too much hassle, I welcome all the employees to quit and serve
the movement as volunteers instead of giving sermons for us.

// I would highly encourage people to focus efforts in productive
directions,//

This is like asking to plant a tree in your house and stop worrying about
the polluting factory nearby. A typical middle class third world sermon.

Nevertheless, we are all active community volunteers. So, please be assured
that we are all doing positive work. Only issue is that the double
standards followed by WMF is demotivating the community heavily.

//and a lot of their knowledge about what went wrong, including what
mistakes they may've made,//

Bloated salaries are a mistake. Fix it now. Programs with low impact and
high cost are drafted to justify the existance of current jobs. Fix it now.

//If this were truly just about profligate spending, there's probably a
hundred things in the Wikimedia movement you could latch on to that are
more outrageous.//

Asking to let a small mistake go because there are bigger mistakes is the
root cause of all corruption and inefficiency.

Ravi
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