Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-09 Thread Ravishankar
Hi,

//Well, salaries upto 2 lakh _per month_ with additional allowances for
expenses on domestic and international travel is pretty huge for India.
Reading from
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMF-A2K_Grant_Budget_and_Utilization_Sept12_-Feb13.pdf//

So what? An employee working for the same BPO / software company in India
gets paid less than his counterpart in US. Even  offsetting the lifestyle
and cost of living allowances, it becomes like mere outsourcing for cheap
labour. Should WMF consider cost cutting and out source this work to some
other country :) ? 2 lakh INR comes around 3000 USD which is a decent
salary for a mid level employee in US. For a national program like CIS -
A2K, salaries in this range is acceptable.

Problem is Indian non-profits usally paying staggeringly low salary. Not
WMF approving reasonable salary scales.

So, are we going to ask for the payroll details of all WMF employees and
start giving our verdict on who deserves how much?

//There is certainly some irony in having a 200,000 INR per month
salary+perks and encouraging others to contribute voluntarily (worse still
to call it staggeringly low). More importantly I think, besides mere envy,
that this causes a rift between much of the community that was actually
happy being (unpaid) volunteers and those that would rather spend their
time jostling to be part of the funded system. Overall it seems funds as
opposed to shared resources (examples here being libraries, journal access)
have a tendency to affect egalitarian aims, and I suspect the effects are
worse in the Global South.//

//It certainly makes the volunteers to draw a line on what they could
volunteer easily and leaves the rest to them (and i have implied
earlier about their abilities) and i afraid it's getting worse day by
day.//

Based on the same logic, is the global Wikipedia participation going down
and communities getting shrinked because of the amount of spending done by
WMF and national chapters?

Speaking from Tamil community's perspective, most of us don't know the
existance and spending done by WMF or India chapter or CIS - A2K. Even if
we get to know, I am sure that this will have no effect on our community's
motivation to contribute.

*Community dynamics will be strained only if direct editing  or off wiki
outreach or programs is financially supported for a select few. We make
sure that it doesn't happen and all community work is totally volunteering.
Where is egalitarianism lost here? *

The community should be aware of its strengths, goals and work towards it.
Wherever it cannot work efficiently, it should give space for partnering
agencies and let them do their work professionally.

This culture of looking up to WMF, chapter and CIS-A2K for community's
growth or lack of it is not healthy. We should remember that community came
first and all came later. There is still a lot of scope for each community
to grow on it's own and make use of grants program when it needs help.

We have every right as a donor to question how WMF and it's partnering
agencies spend our money. But that should not be an excuse to address the
lack of motivation in our community. If  people are really getting de
motivated because of this, we just need to attract more people with the
right attitude and motivation.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-09 Thread Hari Prasad Nadig
On 9 November 2013 13:58, Ravishankar ravidre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 //Well, salaries upto 2 lakh _per month_ with additional allowances for
 expenses on domestic and international travel is pretty huge for India.
 Reading from
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMF-A2K_Grant_Budget_and_Utilization_Sept12_-Feb13.pdf//

 So what? An employee working for the same BPO / software company in India
 gets paid less than his counterpart in US. Even  offsetting the lifestyle
 and cost of living allowances, it becomes like mere outsourcing for cheap
 labour. Should WMF consider cost cutting and out source this work to some
 other country :) ? 2 lakh INR comes around 3000 USD which is a decent
 salary for a mid level employee in US. For a national program like CIS -
 A2K, salaries in this range is acceptable.


Ravi,

Do you think it is appropriate to compare Wikimedia Foundation or its
functioning in India to profit making companies and BPOs?

-- 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-09 Thread Gautam John
On 9 November 2013 19:21, Hari Prasad Nadig hpna...@gmail.com wrote:

 Do you think it is appropriate to compare Wikimedia Foundation or its
 functioning in India to profit making companies and BPOs?

Yes. The goals might be different but they both require qualified,
high quality people to make the goals happen. Paying a competitive
salary is one way to make that possible.

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-09 Thread Prashanth Nuggehalli Srinivas
Indeed, paying more salary is “one” way of making that possible. 

To me, it is more than a technical decision. Going for (in my opinion) such a 
high salary reflects a “choice” by the decision-makers to adopt this particular 
way of achieving the goals. Now, this is for me in complete contrast to how the 
wikipedia movement itself works. For a community that is NOT built on achieving 
competitiveness and quality by paying money, why should the foundation “choose” 
to take that route to achieve the goals. I am certainly not arguing that the 
volunteerism should guide such strategic policy initiatives. But, certainly the 
choices made in the way these policy initiatives are structured should not in 
reverse affect the “culture” of contribution in the community. If at all, it 
should inspire it more. And paying this kind of salaries is certainly not in 
line with the way the community has been evolving. 

Regards,
Prashanth
Disclaimer: My thoughts, although immediately following Gautam John’s response 
is not a reaction to his mail, although I begin with responding to a part of 
his email. 

On 09-Nov-2013, at 6:56 pm, Gautam John gau...@akshara.org.in wrote:

 On 9 November 2013 19:21, Hari Prasad Nadig hpna...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Do you think it is appropriate to compare Wikimedia Foundation or its
 functioning in India to profit making companies and BPOs?
 
 Yes. The goals might be different but they both require qualified,
 high quality people to make the goals happen. Paying a competitive
 salary is one way to make that possible.
 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-09 Thread Gautam John
On 9 November 2013 23:38, Prashanth Nuggehalli Srinivas
prashanth...@gmail.com wrote:

 contribution in the community. If at all, it should inspire it more. And
 paying this kind of salaries is certainly not in line with the way the
 community has been evolving.

In general, we seem to be fixated on the inputs. Measuring those is
kind of pointless, IMO. Why not measure the output and hold them
accountable to that? Secondly, to see if the output would have been
achieved without their intervention and whether the impact of the
output is important too.

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-09 Thread Prashanth Nuggehalli Srinivas
Well. I agree with this. But, I think there is an additional argument, beyond 
accountability to outputs, which is the culture-maintaining spirit of the 
movement. I think there is something to be said of that. 
On 09-Nov-2013, at 7:11 pm, Gautam John gau...@akshara.org.in wrote:

 Why not measure the output and hold them
 accountable to that? Secondly, to see if the output would have been
 achieved without their intervention and whether the impact of the
 output is important too.

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-09 Thread Gautam John
On 9 November 2013 23:44, Prashanth Nuggehalli Srinivas
prashanth...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well. I agree with this. But, I think there is an additional argument,
 beyond accountability to outputs, which is the culture-maintaining spirit of
 the movement. I think there is something to be said of that.

I do agree with you on this. It's a fine line and a very delicate balance.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://www.akshara.org.in/

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-08 Thread ansuman
+1 Shyamal

It certainly makes the volunteers to draw a line on what they could
volunteer easily and leaves the rest to them (and i have implied
earlier about their abilities) and i afraid it's getting worse day by
day. A2K might reach to thousands of people, but it is not going to
help retain them and the existing users.

If A2K really care about being collaborative with the community and
bringing transparency, then why it doesn't seek community's inputs?
E.g. AFAIK there was no discussion on hiring an advisor, just an
announcement and post-discussions (I had read that wmf had nodded it
but why there was no discussion with the community!) I wonder who
really needs advice!

My point is rather having a paid advisor, A2K should collaborate with
the community; we have experienced volunteers on wiki, on this list,
and Chapter members who can advise, we have meta and such sites, where
people around the world share their ideas, are great resources.
(seeking feedback on already made plans is not enough.) And i know you
could say that it won't be good enough. But it should be more than
enough if you really care and could do it. If A2K can't seek advise
from community members and it needs a paid advisor then it's not good
enough for any such tasks that would benefit the movement.

If A2K care on bringing transparency, why the advisor name was not
mentioned after several months (since February if i'm not mistaken)
till now, for that i had to ask again and again! Why?

So far it looks to me, A2K just want to run the show, no matter how!
And i know most of our concerns get ignored, so there is no point
raising any. I shall refrain myself from now on. I think it's time the
team should care about understanding the system, and how it can get
voluntary support and time from the experienced users.

Ansuman

-- 
Regards,
Ansuman http://twitter.com/an5um
*ଓଡ଼ିଆ ଉଇକିପିଡ଼ିଆ http://or.wikipedia.org/*

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-06 Thread Hari Prasad Nadig
On 1 November 2013 09:17, Asaf Bartov abar...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 Dear Shyamal, and everyone,

 I apologize for not responding in a timely manner to your question on the
 Wikimedia Forum[1].  Since that thread is now archived, and because I don't
 want to bury my respond, I'm responding here, on this list where most of
 the people who care will read it.

 To your question: Vishnu did ask me -- at the time (the delay is all mine)
 -- about sharing the WMF and CIS agreement publicly.  We will not be
 sharing that agreement, on principle: not because there's anything secret
 or damning in it, but because we do not want to create a misleading
 precedent that may set the expectation that all WMF contracts are subject
 to community review.  This isn't, and cannot be, the case.  We likewise do
 not expect chapters or other partners to publicly share contracts.

 That said, I am happy to answer the question that prompted you to want to
 look at the agreement, viz. whether the community really has the right to
 complain about things like lack of discussions / transparency etc.  -- the
 answer is: yes, of course!  The community is our ally in ensuring
 meaningful work gets accomplished, in India as in elsewhere in the world.
  We not only allow, but _want_ the community to review CIS-A2K's work,
 just like it reviews WMF's work (on more global/technical matters, e.g. the
 visual editor), Wikimedia India's work, and any other group operating in or
 around the Wikimedia projects.


Asaf,

One of the reasons I personally would want to push for more visibility on
the agreement terms is the spending that is being done on the salaries of
the people involved in the Indian program. There's not much disclosure on
these if I'm not mistaken. Or point me to it if there's any.
Starting from the earlier program director, the salaries allotted were mind
bogglingly huge when compared to the salary trends in the non-profits here
in India. The impression the volunteers involved in the community would get
obviously is that the spending has been free flow, and anything but frugal.
And considering the volume of spending, there's an impending question about
the fruitfulness of the actual work done on ground.

-- 
Hari Prasad Nadig
http://hpnadig.net
http://twitter.com/hpnadig
http://flickr.com/hpnadig
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-06 Thread Gautam John
On 6 November 2013 18:08, Hari Prasad Nadig hpna...@gmail.com wrote:

 Starting from the earlier program director, the salaries allotted were mind
 bogglingly huge when compared to the salary trends in the non-profits here
 in India.

In general, salaries at non-profits in India are staggeringly low. So
not sure if that's a valid starting point.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://www.akshara.org.in/

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-06 Thread Vishnu T


 One of the reasons I personally would want to push for more visibility on
 the agreement terms is the spending that is being done on the salaries of
 the people involved in the Indian program. There's not much disclosure on
 these if I'm not mistaken. Or point me to it if there's any.

 Dear Hari,

The current CIS-A2K Grant budget (including the Team salaries) were openly
shared with the community through most of the Indian mailing lists, in June
2013. For the posting on this list see [1].

Also see [2] for original approved budget which was part of the Grant
Agreement and see [3] revised budget.

Best,
Vishnu

[1]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2013-May/009900.html
[2]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMF-A2K_Grant_Budget_and_Utilization_Sept12_-Feb13.pdf
[3]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CIS-A2K_WMF_Grant_Revised_Budget_%28Approved%29_and_Utilization_Sept_12-Feb_13.pdf
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-06 Thread Hari Prasad Nadig
On 6 November 2013 18:31, Gautam John gau...@akshara.org.in wrote:

 On 6 November 2013 18:08, Hari Prasad Nadig hpna...@gmail.com wrote:

  Starting from the earlier program director, the salaries allotted were
 mind
  bogglingly huge when compared to the salary trends in the non-profits
 here
  in India.

 In general, salaries at non-profits in India are staggeringly low. So
 not sure if that's a valid starting point.


Well, salaries upto 2 lakh _per month_ with additional allowances for
expenses on domestic and international travel is pretty huge for India.
Reading from
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMF-A2K_Grant_Budget_and_Utilization_Sept12_-Feb13.pdf

-- 
Hari Prasad Nadig
http://hpnadig.net
http://twitter.com/hpnadig
http://flickr.com/hpnadig
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] WMF and CIS agreement

2013-11-06 Thread Hari Prasad Nadig
Vishnu,

The salaries of the earlier program director wasn't disclosed. There's not
been much visibility there.

Thanks for the links though.


On 6 November 2013 19:11, Vishnu T visdav...@gmail.com wrote:


 One of the reasons I personally would want to push for more visibility on
 the agreement terms is the spending that is being done on the salaries of
 the people involved in the Indian program. There's not much disclosure on
 these if I'm not mistaken. Or point me to it if there's any.

 Dear Hari,

 The current CIS-A2K Grant budget (including the Team salaries) were openly
 shared with the community through most of the Indian mailing lists, in June
 2013. For the posting on this list see [1].

 Also see [2] for original approved budget which was part of the Grant
 Agreement and see [3] revised budget.

 Best,
 Vishnu

 [1]
 http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2013-May/009900.html
 [2]
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMF-A2K_Grant_Budget_and_Utilization_Sept12_-Feb13.pdf
 [3]
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CIS-A2K_WMF_Grant_Revised_Budget_%28Approved%29_and_Utilization_Sept_12-Feb_13.pdf

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-- 
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http://twitter.com/hpnadig
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