Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-21 Thread Tisza Gergo
Marco Schuster marco at harddisk.is-a-geek.org writes: But why is IE8 falling back to compat-mode at Wikimedia sites? Microsoft has a blacklist for sites they deem incompatible with IE8, and Wikimedia sites are on that list (see [1]). No idea why, Wikipedia looks pretty much the same in IE7

Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-21 Thread Aryeh Gregor
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 5:57 AM, Tisza Gergo gti...@gmail.com wrote: Infoboxes would do fine, navboxes not so much. Consider something like [1], how would that work with fixed widths? If I remember correctly, there was an effort a while ago to make navbox markup less ugly (make it use a

Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-20 Thread Tisza Gergo
Marco Schuster marco at harddisk.is-a-geek.org writes: How big is the market share of such buggy browsers (and what are they)? I'd prefer progress and nice, clean code over having to keep old cruft just because some people still use middle-age browsers. Amongst other things, IE6 and 7 do not

Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-20 Thread Marco Schuster
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Tisza Gergo gti...@gmail.com wrote: Anyway, removing table-related attributes doesn't offer much advantage in itself. There will be a few validator warnings about it, so what? Getting rid of table layouts would be nice, but IE6/7 do not understand

Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-20 Thread Aryeh Gregor
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Dmitriy Sintsov ques...@rambler.ru wrote: Maybe it would be better to introduce non-standard (user-defined) attribute of element (tag), to indicate the type of table (real table or layout table), instead of breaking existing code? Then, screen readers could

Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-19 Thread Dmitriy Sintsov
* Aryeh Gregor simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com [Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:40:54 -0400]: Oh, I see. That's really terrible, then, and we should avoid presentational tables if at all possible. I think this really has to be done on the content side, though, not on the software side --

[Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-18 Thread Daniel Kinzler
Hi all Today I got a review of Vector's accessibility from an employee of the German Central Library for the Blind (Deutsche Zentralbücherei für Blinde, DZB). This is by no means a full evaluation, just the result of having a casual look. I visited them with Till and Maria of Wikimedia Germany a

Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-18 Thread Maria Schiewe
Hi all, Many thanks to Sebastian from the DZB for his quick accessibility inspection. I wanted to comment on two things. 3) hidden (collapsed) menus use display:none. This makes them inaccessible to screen readers, etc. Alternative ways for hiding them might be better - such as setting the

Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-18 Thread Maria Schiewe
Hello all, I have a second suggestion for the alt problem that will require the use of WAI-ARIA, namely aria-describedby. Drawback: That is currently only valid in HTML 5. But it would be the better solution since alternative text and caption text are two different things (see also

Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-18 Thread Aryeh Gregor
2010/6/18 Daniel Kinzler dan...@brightbyte.de: 3) hidden (collapsed) menus use display:none. This makes them inaccessible to screen readers, etc. Alternative ways for hiding them might be better - such as setting the hight to 0. Has this been tried? display: none seems completely appropriate

Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-18 Thread Maria Schiewe
Hello Aryeh, Thank you for your answers and questions. The screen readers should allow the user to expand the menus just like sighted users can -- if that can't be done, that's what should be fixed. It’s not about the screen reader preventing the interaction. The interaction will be the

Re: [Wikitech-l] accessibility problems with vector

2010-06-18 Thread Aryeh Gregor
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Maria Schiewe maria.schi...@wikimedia.de wrote: It’s not about the screen reader preventing the interaction. The interaction will be the same as for keyboard-only users. The problem is that there is no indication that the element can be interacted with. It is