Re: [Wikitech-l] [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Pine W]

FYI, Lila had chosen to engage in discussion on her meta talk page.
Numerous editors are commenting there. Discussion also continues on the
meta RFC and on the English Wikipedia arbitration workshop page.

Pine
On Aug 14, 2014 12:03 AM, "Russavia"  wrote:

Erik

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 5:32 AM, Erik Moeller  wrote:

>
> This is why on all major sites, you see a gradual ramp-up of a new
> feature, and continued improvement once it's widely used. Often
> there's an opt-in and then an opt-out to ease users into the change.
> But once a change is launched, it very rarely gets rolled back unless
> it's just clearly not doing what it's supposed to.


Are you are familiar with the Flickr experience in the last 12 months by
any chance? I think that is a very pertinent and prominent example of what
goes against what you say. The Flickr attitude was much the same as the
WMF's. That ended up in a revolt, much like the WMF is seeing against it.
In the end, they ended up doing what Erik?

Also, the other day I received a Flickr email from someone wishing to use
an image which I had not taken, but which I had uploaded to Commons. They
mentioned that they saw the photo on Commons.

When I told them that I am not the author, and that they would need to
contact Joe Bloggs, their response: "I'm sorry, this is SO confusing to me."

I put that down to MediaViewer and its adding irrelevant information, and
also the fact that file information is more difficult to find.

Russavia
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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Derric Atzrott]

>> Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user 
>> experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS, 
>> etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been
>> used for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will
>> want to apply a code review process to these changes as with any
>> other deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we
>> have no intent to remove this capability.
> 
> Sorry, I strongly disagree that the current system works. Every so
> often we discover that a wiki has been loading external resources in
> site-wide JS for months. Local sysops might have no idea on what
> they're doing, and just copy and paste what someone told them to do.
> Edits like [1] make that terribly obvious.
>
> I filed bug 69445[2] as a tracking bug to implement a sane code review
> process for these pages. I don't imagine it will happen anytime soon,
> but now seems like a good time to start discussion about it.

I'm fine with having some sort of code review system, so long as it is
implemented in such a way that there are volunteers with +2 for it.

I'm not sure implementing this user right though was the best way to
go about beginning that implementation, at least with the sort of
charged atmosphere that currently exists within the Wikimedia
editor communities.

Perhaps the change could be reverted and we could spend some time on
this list discussing how such a code review system would work? Give some
time for the editors to calm down and all of us to calm down.  (A quick
look at Meta shows a lot of hate.)  I think if this is implemented
slowly with lots of notice it might have a better chance of succeeding.
I think Erik's commit is likely poisoned at this point and any work
that stems from it is unlikely to be accepted by the wider community.

I like the discussion that is going on in #69445, thank you for filing
that Legoktm.

If nothing else, this whole debacle brought this issue back to the
center of discussion, somewhere where it needs to be.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Legoktm]

On 8/10/14, 6:27 AM, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user 
> experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS, 
> etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been
> used for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will
> want to apply a code review process to these changes as with any
> other deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we
> have no intent to remove this capability.

Sorry, I strongly disagree that the current system works. Every so
often we discover that a wiki has been loading external resources in
site-wide JS for months. Local sysops might have no idea on what
they're doing, and just copy and paste what someone told them to do.
Edits like [1] make that terribly obvious.

I filed bug 69445[2] as a tracking bug to implement a sane code review
process for these pages. I don't imagine it will happen anytime soon,
but now seems like a good time to start discussion about it.

[1]
https://szl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3ACommon.js&diff=prev&oldid=208782
[2] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69445

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Tyler Romeo]

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 6:54 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
wrote:

> Was this functionality was ever supported by MediaWiki core?


Of course this is supported by MediaWiki core, although I cannot attest as
to whether it was previously implemented on WMF wikis.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
 wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:01 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
> wrote:
>
>> Before this, there was no expectation that a page could be protected
>> such that sysops could not alter the content of the superprotected
>> page.
>>
>
> This is false.

Care to explain?

Was this functionality was ever supported by MediaWiki core?
Could you point me towards some documentation?

>> Now, the devs/ops have attempted to introduce that capability, and the
>> new functionality is very likely riddled with holes, some of which
>> MZMcBride has suggested in the thread 'Options for the German
>> Wikipedia'.
>>
>
> Most of what MZMcBride posted there has nothing to do with actually
> breaking superprotection. Editing a page that isn't superprotected isn't a
> break in the protection feature itself, for example.

Of course it is.  It isnt a 'feature' until it actually works at the
released product level.
Rushing component level hardening changes into production, when
everyone knows how to work around the new 'hardened' code, it very bad
change management.
It likely introduces unforeseen bugs, for no actual gain.

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Brad Jorsch (Anomie)]

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:01 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
wrote:

> Before this, there was no expectation that a page could be protected
> such that sysops could not alter the content of the superprotected
> page.
>

This is false.


> Now, the devs/ops have attempted to introduce that capability, and the
> new functionality is very likely riddled with holes, some of which
> MZMcBride has suggested in the thread 'Options for the German
> Wikipedia'.
>

Most of what MZMcBride posted there has nothing to do with actually
breaking superprotection. Editing a page that isn't superprotected isn't a
break in the protection feature itself, for example. Nor is hacking
people's accounts.


-- 
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Tomasz W . Kozłowski]

This is, by far, the most disgusting and disrespectful action
undertaken by the Foundation that I have ever witnessed. The 2012 mass
desysopping of volunteer administrators on the WMF wiki and the past
threats of desysopping users re: VisualEditor and MediaViewer do not
even come close to this.

It is clear to me that the Foundation has agreed on this sneaky change
behind closed doors while some of the most outspoken Wikimedia
volunteers were (and still are) gathered in London. This is not the
first time that we're seeing this happpen, and it is clear to me that
the Foundation has lost all remaining moral authority to talk about
transparency and involving volunteers in the decision-making process.

Erik has forced his employees, including a so-called community
advocacy liaison, to use this opportunity to actively fight the
volunteer community of the German Wikipedia. He himself has engaged in
a wheel war over this, and continues to shove MediaViewer down the
German Wikipedia's community throat.

I'm not sure what was the purpose of this change, but if its aim was
to escalate the already tense situation between the WMF and its
volunteer communities regarding MediaViewer, protecting the
MediaWiki:Common.js page so that no one can edit it was the perfect
choice.

This action will cause a huge shitstorm, and Erik deserves every bit
of shit and mud that will be thrown his way.

You can force anything you like on your employees, but you cannot
force the volunteer community to do what you want, not in a manner
like this.

Remember that in the end, the community can exist without the WMF, but
there is no WMF without the community.

-- 
Tomasz

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