Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Mark A. Hershberger]

m...@nichework.com (Mark A. Hershberger) writes:

> Legoktm  writes:
>
>> On 9/22/14 1:10 PM, Mark A. Hershberger wrote:
>>> 
>>> In deference to the concerns raised by James Forrester, Markus and I
>>> have decided not to back out the REL1_24 branch.
>>
>> Will you be creating the REL1_24 branches for extensions and skins, or
>> would you like me to do that?
>
> You can do it if you like.  There is a script at
> https://git.wikimedia.org/blob/mediawiki%2Ftools%2Frelease/HEAD/make-release%2Fmake-branches
> that will help with this.

Note that you'll need to modify this to handled the new skins
repository.

Mark.

-- 
Mark A. Hershberger
NicheWork LLC
717-271-1084

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Mark A. Hershberger]

Legoktm  writes:

> On 9/22/14 1:10 PM, Mark A. Hershberger wrote:
>> 
>> In deference to the concerns raised by James Forrester, Markus and I
>> have decided not to back out the REL1_24 branch.
>
> Will you be creating the REL1_24 branches for extensions and skins, or
> would you like me to do that?

You can do it if you like.  There is a script at
https://git.wikimedia.org/blob/mediawiki%2Ftools%2Frelease/HEAD/make-release%2Fmake-branches
that will help with this.

Mark.

-- 
Mark A. Hershberger
NicheWork LLC
717-271-1084

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Legoktm]

On 9/22/14 1:10 PM, Mark A. Hershberger wrote:
> 
> In deference to the concerns raised by James Forrester, Markus and I
> have decided not to back out the REL1_24 branch.

Will you be creating the REL1_24 branches for extensions and skins, or
would you like me to do that?

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[James Forrester]

On 22 September 2014 13:10, Mark A. Hershberger  wrote:

> In deference to the concerns raised by James Forrester, Markus and I
> have decided not to back out the REL1_24 branch.
>
> Less than 80 hours have passed since the branch was made, so there
> hasn't been time to make any major technical changes in the code base.
> That leaves the social concerns that James raises.  We respect him and
> his work as product manager for editing and don't want to make him
> suffer as the result of this snafu.
>
> That said, I need to clarify some things about the schedule for
> releases.
>
> For about a year now, we've used the schedule:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WikiReleaseTeam/Release_timeline
>
> Markus did filled in the dates as a result of this
> situation, but we had already agreed on a release date, and, as a
> result, a branch point.
>
> (Markus and I are not the only people who have edited the
> page, so it wasn't unknown.  Still, we could have done a much better job
> of publicizing it.  Thankfully, this incident has led to it being
> publicized.)
>
> In this vein, we'd like to announce the date of the 1.25 release now and
> its respective branch point.
>
> 1.25 is scheduled for release on Wednesday, May 27th, 2015. Using the
> formula on that page (6 weeks prior to the release date), the branch
> date for REL1_25 will be April 15th, 2015 and this will be announced
> (again) on April 8th so that everyone will have a week's notice to merge
> anything that is necessary for 1.25.
>
> Thanks, and I hope this clarifies any misunderstanding.
>

​Mark and Markus,

Thank you​ very much; sorry for putting you in an awkward position.

Yours,
-- 
James D. Forrester
Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

jforres...@wikimedia.org | @jdforrester
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Mark A. Hershberger]

In deference to the concerns raised by James Forrester, Markus and I
have decided not to back out the REL1_24 branch.

Less than 80 hours have passed since the branch was made, so there
hasn't been time to make any major technical changes in the code base.
That leaves the social concerns that James raises.  We respect him and
his work as product manager for editing and don't want to make him
suffer as the result of this snafu.

That said, I need to clarify some things about the schedule for
releases.

For about a year now, we've used the schedule:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WikiReleaseTeam/Release_timeline

Markus did filled in the dates as a result of this
situation, but we had already agreed on a release date, and, as a
result, a branch point.

(Markus and I are not the only people who have edited the
page, so it wasn't unknown.  Still, we could have done a much better job
of publicizing it.  Thankfully, this incident has led to it being
publicized.)

In this vein, we'd like to announce the date of the 1.25 release now and
its respective branch point.

1.25 is scheduled for release on Wednesday, May 27th, 2015. Using the
formula on that page (6 weeks prior to the release date), the branch
date for REL1_25 will be April 15th, 2015 and this will be announced
(again) on April 8th so that everyone will have a week's notice to merge
anything that is necessary for 1.25.

Thanks, and I hope this clarifies any misunderstanding.

Mark.

-- 
Mark A. Hershberger
NicheWork LLC
717-271-1084

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Isarra Yos]

On 21/09/14 22:41, Markus Glaser wrote:

Hi Isarra,


Why is this ahead of schedule? Two months before release seems pretty 
reasonable to me; ...
You don't want to rush this stuff, especially when balancing with breaking 
changes in the next release.

It's ahead of the planned release schedule [1] by a few weeks. The real issues 
is, though, that the branching was not announced a week beforehand, as planned. 
As you point out, the whole tarball release of a major version should not be 
done in a rush. This also implies giving developers, especially when it comes 
to extensions, some time ahead to include their work (in progress) into the 
branch without a lot of backporting.


That's not what I asked. Ignoring for the moment that the schedule only 
appeared after the 1.24 branch was made, why was that what was planned?



Also, 1.24 has already had wmf22 branched. Shouldn't this
mean master should be going onto 1.25 now anyway?

IMHO, the issue is that we have no clear responsibilities here. The Foundation 
sets the date for switching to wmf1.2x+1. Probably this should this be the 
trigger for the 6 week tarball release process. On the other hand, we have a 
monthly tarball release cycle and announced dates for releases which a lot of 
non-WMF users refer to. So we need to coordinate this. Mind you, I do not want 
to totally stick to the 6 week process we have lined out, there is of course 
flexibility. But it needs some coordination before the branching is acually 
made. I assume it is within the responsibilities of WikiReleaseTeam to make 
sure this coordination takes place (in the future). Personally, I also think 
the WikiReleaseTeam should do the acutal branching and communication about this.

Let me be clear about one thing: this is a matter of unclear responsibilites. 
I'm not blaming anyone personally for what they did. Let's clarify the process 
(maybe here on this list) and make _better_ mistakes tomorrow :)

Best,
Marks

[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WikiReleaseTeam/Release_timeline


Is it not your responsibility to coordinate this with the WMF, and make 
sure ahead of time that all the dates line up? Why wasn't this done?


Given that they run on their own schedule, and that most developers also 
do things on their own time, I'm not sure how viable a 'montly release 
cycle' actually is, either. Updates should go out when they're ready, 
not on specified dates, and this doesn't just apply to security fixes 
(though they are particularly important), but the main releases too. We 
just all need to know ahead of time what the status of these is so we 
can coordinate our own patches, updates, etc accordingly.


-I

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Bartosz Dziewoński]

How are you going to ensure that none of the changes that were already  
merged on REL1_24 branch will be lost, and that none of the changes merged  
on master that weren't meant for 1.24 will be included, and that all of  
the changes merged on master will still be kept on master after the new  
branch point?


I don't think trying to do this is worth the hassle for you, the  
inevitable awful mess it will produce in Gerrit, and the annoyance for  
everyone else. The two release calendars weren't synchronised and this  
isn't the best situation, but I suggest we roll with it nevertheless. On  
the plus side, now we'll have a lot more time to backport necessary  
changes to REL1_24.


--
Bartosz Dziewoński

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Rob Lanphier]

On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 3:41 PM, Markus Glaser  wrote:

> Let me be clear about one thing: this is a matter of unclear
> responsibilites. I'm not blaming anyone personally for what they did. Let's
> clarify the process (maybe here on this list) and make _better_ mistakes
> tomorrow :)
>

Yup, agreed.  In my opinion, the time to branch should be up to you (as the
tarball publishers), and we (WMF) number our deployment branches
(1.2?wmf??) to make sense with that.  Anything dependent on the timing of
the tarball release should be coordinated with you all.

There's not a great reason to assume that 1.24wmf22 is automatically the
last in the 1.24 series.  Sure, 1.23wmf22 was the last in the 1.23 series,
but we had 1.22wmf24, and back when we were on a two week cycle, we had
1.21wmf12 ( x 2 = wmf24), and 1.20wmf12.  If you go off of blind
mathematical calculation based on weekly WMF deployments and two releases a
year, that would imply we can have 1.24wmf26.  However, given that we're
not yet that predictable (we occassionally don't deploy some weeks), we
shouldn't automatically peg the tarball releases to a specific wmfXX number.

It would be good, however, to have this timeline published somewhere sooner
so that everyone is aware of the target.  While we're thinking of it, can
we just publish the 1.25 timeline now (somewhere obvious to everyone
involved) so that there's no confusion come April/May/June?  The obvious
place for both the 1.24 timeline and the 1.25 timeline would seem to me to
be [[MediaWiki 1.24/Roadmap]] and [[MediaWiki 1.24/Roadmap]] respectively.

Rob
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[James Forrester]

On 21 September 2014 20:08, Legoktm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 9/21/14, 1:42 PM, Mark A. Hershberger wrote:
> > Dear Wikitech-l
> >
> > REL1_24 was branched and announced ahead of schedule[0].
> >
> > Our schedule[1] clearly states that we will announce a branch one week
> > before we make one in order to allow developers to put any necessary work
> > into the branch and keep backports to a minimum.
>
> Given that your schedule was only posted earlier today
> (<
> https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=WikiReleaseTeam%2FRelease_timeline&diff=1177036&oldid=1135771
> >),
> I'm not sure how you expected anyone else to know about it. Normally we
> switch over to the next alpha branch after the wmf22 branch is created.
>

​Indeed. If we follow the newly-proposed timeline on that page, 1.24 would
have wmf23, wmf24 and wmf25 branches before being again branched?

It would help a great deal if you're choosing to alter the process that you
change expectations by communicating them a little earlier; as it is I'll
have to go and apologise to everyone​ who I informed that 1.24wmf22 would
be the last cut, and instead explain that the plans were changed.

J.
-- 
James D. Forrester
Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

jforres...@wikimedia.org | @jdforrester
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Legoktm]

Hi,

On 9/21/14, 1:42 PM, Mark A. Hershberger wrote:
> Dear Wikitech-l 
> 
> REL1_24 was branched and announced ahead of schedule[0].
> 
> Our schedule[1] clearly states that we will announce a branch one week
> before we make one in order to allow developers to put any necessary work
> into the branch and keep backports to a minimum.

Given that your schedule was only posted earlier today
(),
I'm not sure how you expected anyone else to know about it. Normally we
switch over to the next alpha branch after the wmf22 branch is created.

> The current release is planned for 2014-11-26[2].  According to our
> schedule, the actual REL1_24 branch should be made on 2014-10-22.

This doesn't make much sense to me. Next week 1.25wmf1 is going to be
branched, meaning that master should be on "1.25alpha" already. Waiting
until late October to branch means that won't happen. The bump to 1.24
(), it was done right after
1.23wmf22 was branched, so the same basic process was followed here give
or take a day.

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Markus Glaser]

Hi Isarra,

> Why is this ahead of schedule? Two months before release
>  seems pretty reasonable to me; 
> You don't want to rush this stuff, especially when 
> balancing with breaking changes in the next release.
It's ahead of the planned release schedule [1] by a few weeks. The real issues 
is, though, that the branching was not announced a week beforehand, as planned. 
As you point out, the whole tarball release of a major version should not be 
done in a rush. This also implies giving developers, especially when it comes 
to extensions, some time ahead to include their work (in progress) into the 
branch without a lot of backporting.

> Also, 1.24 has already had wmf22 branched. Shouldn't this
> mean master should be going onto 1.25 now anyway?

IMHO, the issue is that we have no clear responsibilities here. The Foundation 
sets the date for switching to wmf1.2x+1. Probably this should this be the 
trigger for the 6 week tarball release process. On the other hand, we have a 
monthly tarball release cycle and announced dates for releases which a lot of 
non-WMF users refer to. So we need to coordinate this. Mind you, I do not want 
to totally stick to the 6 week process we have lined out, there is of course 
flexibility. But it needs some coordination before the branching is acually 
made. I assume it is within the responsibilities of WikiReleaseTeam to make 
sure this coordination takes place (in the future). Personally, I also think 
the WikiReleaseTeam should do the acutal branching and communication about this.

Let me be clear about one thing: this is a matter of unclear responsibilites. 
I'm not blaming anyone personally for what they did. Let's clarify the process 
(maybe here on this list) and make _better_ mistakes tomorrow :)

Best,
Marks

[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WikiReleaseTeam/Release_timeline
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Isarra Yos]

On 21/09/14 20:42, Mark A. Hershberger wrote:

Dear Wikitech-l

REL1_24 was branched and announced ahead of schedule[0].

Our schedule[1] clearly states that we will announce a branch one week
before we make one in order to allow developers to put any necessary work
into the branch and keep backports to a minimum.

The current release is planned for 2014-11-26[2].  According to our
schedule, the actual REL1_24 branch should be made on 2014-10-22.

Please excuse the error and do not deprecate anything while we make the
necessary corrections. Unless there is a good reason to keep the branch,
we will revert the current REL1_24 branch on Monday evening.

Finally, while we are very happy to have help with the release work, we
do ask that you coordinate with us to ensure a controlled process free
of disruption.

Signed,

Mark and Markus

[0] 
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/q/project:mediawiki/core+branch:REL1_24,n,z)
[1] 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WikiReleaseTeam/Release_process#Release_process_start
[2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WikiReleaseTeam/Release_timeline


Why is this ahead of schedule? Two months before release seems pretty 
reasonable to me; this way folks will actually have time to test things 
and get everything in and make the release stable from the start, with 
allowance for any other unexpected issues that may arise. You don't want 
to rush this stuff, especially when balancing with breaking changes in 
the next release.


Also, 1.24 has already had wmf22 branched. Shouldn't this mean master 
should be going onto 1.25 now anyway?


-I

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[Wikitech-l] Backing out REL1_24

[Mark A . Hershberger]

Dear Wikitech-l 

REL1_24 was branched and announced ahead of schedule[0].

Our schedule[1] clearly states that we will announce a branch one week
before we make one in order to allow developers to put any necessary work
into the branch and keep backports to a minimum.

The current release is planned for 2014-11-26[2].  According to our
schedule, the actual REL1_24 branch should be made on 2014-10-22.

Please excuse the error and do not deprecate anything while we make the
necessary corrections. Unless there is a good reason to keep the branch,
we will revert the current REL1_24 branch on Monday evening.

Finally, while we are very happy to have help with the release work, we
do ask that you coordinate with us to ensure a controlled process free
of disruption.

Signed,

Mark and Markus

[0] 
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/q/project:mediawiki/core+branch:REL1_24,n,z)
[1] 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WikiReleaseTeam/Release_process#Release_process_start
[2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WikiReleaseTeam/Release_timeline

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