Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Marko Obrovac]

On 28 Apr 2016 18:10, "C. Scott Ananian"  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Riccardo Iaconelli 
> wrote:
>
> > > 2) publish your code in Gerrit:
> > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git/New_repositories/Requests (you
made a
> > > Docker extensiona and the skin, right?
> >
> > We have a few modifications here and there, also on OCG and more
standard
> > extensions (like Math). We will do more. We're temporarly hosting our
> > source
> > code on github, while we're reworking with the sysadmins on the
> > git.kde.org
> > infrastructure, but as a KDE project we will have to move the official
> > repos,
> > per project policy.
> >
>
> Did you complete this move?  Where did your git repositories end up?  I'd
> love to look at your patches to OCG and see about upstreaming them.

Idem. I'd like to see the modifications you did to the Math extension
(together with the motivation for doing that) :-)

Cheers,
Marko

>  --scott
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[C. Scott Ananian]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Riccardo Iaconelli 
wrote:

> > 2) publish your code in Gerrit:
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git/New_repositories/Requests (you made a
> > Docker extensiona and the skin, right?
>
> We have a few modifications here and there, also on OCG and more standard
> extensions (like Math). We will do more. We're temporarly hosting our
> source
> code on github, while we're reworking with the sysadmins on the
> git.kde.org
> infrastructure, but as a KDE project we will have to move the official
> repos,
> per project policy.
>

Did you complete this move?  Where did your git repositories end up?  I'd
love to look at your patches to OCG and see about upstreaming them.
 --scott
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Riccardo Iaconelli]

On Sunday, November 29, 2015 11:37:40 AM Pine W wrote:
> Could we meet on Thursday, 3 December at 10 AM PST / 7PM CEST, or Monday, 7
> December at 10 AM PST / 7PM CEST?
> 
> I'm fine with this being an open "office hour"-like environment where anyone
> can join the conversation on Hangouts. I'm wondering if staff from the Wiki
> Ed Foundation like LiAnna would be interested, and/or staff from WMF
> Education like Tighe or Anna.

Hi!

Thursday, 3 December would be perfect with me. I will also forward the e-mail 
to our mailing list in case somebody else from WikiToLearn wants to join. :-)

See you all there!

Bye,
-Riccardo


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Pine W]

Could we meet on Thursday, 3 December at 10 AM PST / 7PM CEST, or Monday, 7
December at 10 AM PST / 7PM CEST?

I'm fine with this being an open "office hour"-like environment where
anyone can join the conversation on Hangouts. I'm wondering if staff from
the Wiki Ed Foundation like LiAnna would be interested, and/or staff from
WMF Education like Tighe or Anna.

Pine

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 10:59 PM, Riccardo Iaconelli 
wrote:

> On Friday, November 27, 2015 04:15:09 PM Pine W wrote:
> > This sounds like a wonderful project for the Wikimedia universe. It also
> > aligns with the interests of the education interests of multiple US
> > affiliates. Would you be able to set up a Hangout meeting with some of us
> > (me and whoever else is interested) during the next few weeks? I wouls
> like
> > to learn more about this project!
>
> Hi Pine,
>
> of course, I'd be glad to!
> I live in the CEST timezone, and I am free most of next week. The first
> days
> are better though, since later on I will be commuting Milan-Geneva. Pick a
> day
> and we'll try to make it work. :-)
>
> If next week is better, fine with me.
>
> Bye,
> -Riccardo
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Cristian Consonni]

Ciao,

2015-11-27 20:04 GMT+01:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) :
> To clarify, Wikimedia Italia doesn't financially sponsor this site nor
> contribute content to it. AFAIK our volunteers provided some MediaWiki
> training to the site's users. Wikimedia Italia is always happy when
> MediaWiki usage spreads, but recommends Wikibooks and Wikiversity as primary
> platforms for OER activities.

Wikimedia Italia is also happy if new open content is produced. So
even if Wikimedia Italia has given only "moral" support up to now (see
the fact that WM-IT logo appears in https://www.wikitolearn.org/)

To me WikiToLearn has two main advantages:
1. They have been able to develop new extensions for MediaWiki and use
them in a project with ~20 active users/month (and growing). They also
built their own infrastructure for development and testing (and this
is the use for the machines in this project[1]).
1 (bis). They have been able to gather a community of new developers
and introduce them to MediaWiki development (with a full
testing/stating/production stack based on Docker containers).

2. They have been able to pique the interest of many professors in
universities (mostly in Italy for the moment). In this respect I think
that having a separate project helps, for example being able to import
LaTeX files and having them converted is a great help.

If this is a path that can help to have more extensions and tools
reach upstream I think it is great for everybody.

Cristian
[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T115282?workflow=76375

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Your code modifications for http://wikitolearn.org/ are interesting. I'm 
pretty sure that KDE policies don't force you to fork MediaWiki 
extensions locally, so your patches are definitely welcome upstream.


I'm not sure what you mean with your point about  being rejected 
by the community; perhaps you refer to some performance decision made by 
WMF. If your modifications to Math are incompatible with some decision 
of the maintainers, you can ask a different repository on gerrit or 
another branch on the same repository, so that non-WMF users can use 
your code.


As for your comments on chapters and drafts, I don't see anything 
incompatible with how Wikibooks and Wikiversity work. If you have a 
solution for what we call "book management" i.e. 
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T17071 (worked on by Raylton and 
others with 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:GSoC_Mediawiki_Book_Experience 
), that's especially interesting.


To reach the Wikibooks and Wikiversity community, the best way is to use 
a medium that can involve their active editors, such as their mailing 
lists (cc'ed here) or wikis.


Nemo


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Riccardo Iaconelli]

On Friday, November 27, 2015 04:15:09 PM Pine W wrote:
> This sounds like a wonderful project for the Wikimedia universe. It also
> aligns with the interests of the education interests of multiple US
> affiliates. Would you be able to set up a Hangout meeting with some of us
> (me and whoever else is interested) during the next few weeks? I wouls like
> to learn more about this project!

Hi Pine,

of course, I'd be glad to!
I live in the CEST timezone, and I am free most of next week. The first days 
are better though, since later on I will be commuting Milan-Geneva. Pick a day 
and we'll try to make it work. :-)

If next week is better, fine with me.

Bye,
-Riccardo


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Riccardo Iaconelli]

On Friday, November 27, 2015 08:32:50 PM Brad Jorsch wrote:
> If I can trust Google Translate, it.wikibooks.org's equivalent pages say
> roughly the same thing.

Hi Brad,

what I meant is that we create various forms of text, and most content might 
not be directly unitary textbooks, but simply start as several collections 
student notes or lecture notes. There is also no "book" with a clear 
structure, index, beginning and end, but there will be several sharing the 
same content. The site is structured around many "liquid" chapters which can 
later be re-assembled at the user's will, at compile time. The whole site is 
built around the idea of these light chapters, which can be scattered 
everywhere and which might even live in a User's namespace, because one of the 
main focuses we have is offline usage and personalization.

I agree that sometimes the lines can be more blurred, but I hope I was clear 
enough in why I think the two projects have different scopes. :)

Bye,
-Riccardo



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Brad Jorsch (Anomie)]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Riccardo Iaconelli 
wrote:

> On Friday, November 27, 2015 09:07:39 AM Brad Jorsch wrote:
> > How does it compare to Wikibooks? From the description it sounds very
> > similar. Or Wikiversity?
>
> Wikibooks is mostly for "generic" books,


That's not what
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:What_is_Wikibooks#What_is_Wikibooks
says:

"Wikibooks is for textbooks, annotated texts, instructional guides, and
manuals. [...] As a general rule only instructional books are suitable for
inclusion. Most types of books, both fiction and non-fiction, are not
allowed on Wikibooks, unless they are instructional."

If I can trust Google Translate, it.wikibooks.org's equivalent pages say
roughly the same thing.


-- 
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Pine W]

This sounds like a wonderful project for the Wikimedia universe. It also
aligns with the interests of the education interests of multiple US
affiliates. Would you be able to set up a Hangout meeting with some of us
(me and whoever else is interested) during the next few weeks? I wouls like
to learn more about this project!

Pine
On Nov 27, 2015 5:22 AM, "Riccardo Iaconelli"  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I would like to introduce to the Wikimedia community WikiToLearn, a FOSS
> project of which I am a participant and which is lately getting a lot of
> contributions and momentum.
>
> It is a KDE project sponsored (among the others) by Wikimedia Italy and
> recently joined by institutions such as HEP Software Foundation (CERN,
> Fermilab, Princeton...) or Universities such as University of Pisa and
> Milano-
> Bicocca. These institutions are already populating the website with
> content.
>
> We aim to provide a platform where learners and teachers can complete,
> refine
> and re-assemble lecture notes in order to create free, collaborative and
> accessible textbooks, tailored precisely to their needs.
>
> Although the project is quite young (only a few months old), it is already
> growing in allure at an unexpected rate. Thanks to this we are now
> counting on
> nearly 40 developers, and growing (including content developers).
>
> We are different from Wikipedia and other WMF projects in several ways,
> and in
> a sense, complementary. Our focus is on creating complete textbooks (and
> not
> encyclopedic articles), drawing from a professor’s or a student’s own
> notes,
> either existing or that have to be written down.
>
> We also have a strong focus on offline use: all the content of WikiToLearn
> should be easily printable by any student for offline use and serious
> studying.
>
> Besides a good team for content development, we can count on a small but
> motivated team of developers, and we would like to improve communication
> with
> upstream (a.k.a. you ;-) ), because we found ourselves developing a few
> features which could probably be made available to the general public, with
> some generalization and polishing. ;-)
>
> Is this a right place to start such a discussion?
>
> We would like to help as much as we can, but we might need some mentoring
> in
> how to best approach MediaWiki development, as many of us are relatively
> new
> to OSS/Web development.
>
> Bye,
> -Riccardo
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Riccardo Iaconelli]

On Friday, November 27, 2015 08:04:17 PM Federico Leva wrote:
> To clarify, Wikimedia Italia doesn't financially sponsor this site nor
> contribute content to it. AFAIK our volunteers provided some MediaWiki
> training to the site's users. Wikimedia Italia is always happy when
> MediaWiki usage spreads, but recommends Wikibooks and Wikiversity as
> primary platforms for OER activities.

A few important Wikimedia Italia members have actually contributed much 
content to the site. I think that the relationship between KDE and WMI is 
mutually beneficial, as we bring in a lot more contributors to MediaWiki and 
similar technologies, and at the same time develop much free content.

Everybody wins. :-)

> As for your question, there are a couple useful things you can do:
> 1) write a document where you explain what makes your platform more
> suitable for your activities and what features Wikibooks/Wikiversity
> lack in your opinion;

I briefly answered in my previous mail to a question similar to this.
A strong presence within the academical world is also a non-techical, but key 
element. Two universities (Milano-Bicocca and Pisa) have already decided to 
join the activities with all of their professors and students. I expect 
several more to come (we have ongoing contacts), in the near future.

> 2) publish your code in Gerrit:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git/New_repositories/Requests (you made a
> Docker extensiona and the skin, right?

We have a few modifications here and there, also on OCG and more standard 
extensions (like Math). We will do more. We're temporarly hosting our source 
code on github, while we're reworking with the sysadmins on the git.kde.org 
infrastructure, but as a KDE project we will have to move the official repos, 
per project policy.

Since git is decentralized, I hope we can still find great spaces for 
collaborating. ;-)

> 3) report bugs and feature requests http://phabricator.wikimedia.org/ ;
>
> 4) (as you use Debian) take ownership of the Debian package, which is
> currently abandoned: https://wiki.debian.org/MediaWiki ;
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=728347 .

We're not using a Debian package, we're using our custom baked solution of 
variously integrated docker containers, which allows for an almost identical 
setup for development and production, with a pretty nice deployment procedure. 

It seemed much easier than Vagrant for our usecases. All of our scripts are 
also open. This allows deployment on several Linux flavors.

Thank you very much for your reply and your support! :-)

Bye,
-Riccardo



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Riccardo Iaconelli]

On Friday, November 27, 2015 09:07:39 AM Brad Jorsch wrote:
> How does it compare to Wikibooks? From the description it sounds very
> similar. Or Wikiversity?

Wikibooks is mostly for "generic" books, while we aim at content with a 
didactical value. For this reason we don't want the restrictions on software 
offer imposed by WMF, and we allow support for things like numbered equations, 
or the ability to create a more compelling UX through new skins. Target users 
are universities (students and professors) and research labs.

Wikiversity, on the other hand, has never managed to gain enough momentum 
within the academical communities. As Ricordisamoa wrote, it is now 
restarting, but it's after we gathered interested people and material, and 
we're currently way more active than the local Wikiversity group.

I believe we're doing a better job at performing a (IMHO FUNDAMENTAL) bonding 
with unis and research labs, mostly thanks to the fact that we come from 
there. AFAICT from a few private chats that is also OK with Wikimedia, since 
that is no longer their main focus (which is now WikiData and Wikipedia). All 
the efforts I have seen on this direction (e.g. WikiEdu and WikiMed) have 
concentrated on Wikipedia.

We also give a strong focus on offline usage of the content, from the layout 
of the pages to the content type. We were born to address a very specific and 
personal need, and we ensured to create the most easy and efficient platform 
for serious studying.


> > We would like to help as much as we can, but we might need some mentoring
> > in how to best approach MediaWiki development, as many of us are
> > relatively
> > new to OSS/Web development.
> 
> Have you seen
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_become_a_MediaWiki_hacker and
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Developer_hub yet?
> 
> Other advice I can give you is that getting something into MediaWiki core
> itself can be daunting, but don't be too afraid to propose a patch adding
> it if it really belongs there (even if "it" is just the hook that you need
> or a new accessor on some existing class). It can be difficult to find the
> right person to review the code and standards can be high, and sometimes
> it'll turn out that the thing should be done in a completely different way
> than you originally thought, but you're likely to wind up with a better
> result than if you hack things up in an extension.

First thing that comes to mind: we introduced a  tag (short for 
displaystyle math) that allows centered, complex and numbered equations.

I have seen that a similar patch has been explicitly rejected by the Wikipedia 
community. How do you suggest we proceed?

Bye,
-Riccardo



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Riccardo Iaconelli]

On Friday, November 27, 2015 04:05:25 PM Ricordisamoa wrote:
> What a better proof that itwikiversity has failed.
> But it is getting restarted 
>  
> recently.

We should definitely get in touch and join forces :-)

-Riccardo


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

To clarify, Wikimedia Italia doesn't financially sponsor this site nor 
contribute content to it. AFAIK our volunteers provided some MediaWiki 
training to the site's users. Wikimedia Italia is always happy when 
MediaWiki usage spreads, but recommends Wikibooks and Wikiversity as 
primary platforms for OER activities.


As for your question, there are a couple useful things you can do:
1) write a document where you explain what makes your platform more 
suitable for your activities and what features Wikibooks/Wikiversity 
lack in your opinion;
2) publish your code in Gerrit: 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git/New_repositories/Requests (you made a 
Docker extensiona and the skin, right? 
http://it.wikitolearn.org/Speciale:Versione);

3) report bugs and feature requests http://phabricator.wikimedia.org/ ;
4) (as you use Debian) take ownership of the Debian package, which is 
currently abandoned: https://wiki.debian.org/MediaWiki ; 
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=728347 .


Nemo

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Ricordisamoa]

What a better proof that itwikiversity has failed.
But it is getting restarted 
 
recently.


Il 27/11/2015 14:22, Riccardo Iaconelli ha scritto:

Hi all,

I would like to introduce to the Wikimedia community WikiToLearn, a FOSS
project of which I am a participant and which is lately getting a lot of
contributions and momentum.

It is a KDE project sponsored (among the others) by Wikimedia Italy and
recently joined by institutions such as HEP Software Foundation (CERN,
Fermilab, Princeton...) or Universities such as University of Pisa and Milano-
Bicocca. These institutions are already populating the website with content.

We aim to provide a platform where learners and teachers can complete, refine
and re-assemble lecture notes in order to create free, collaborative and
accessible textbooks, tailored precisely to their needs.

Although the project is quite young (only a few months old), it is already
growing in allure at an unexpected rate. Thanks to this we are now counting on
nearly 40 developers, and growing (including content developers).

We are different from Wikipedia and other WMF projects in several ways, and in
a sense, complementary. Our focus is on creating complete textbooks (and not
encyclopedic articles), drawing from a professor’s or a student’s own notes,
either existing or that have to be written down.

We also have a strong focus on offline use: all the content of WikiToLearn
should be easily printable by any student for offline use and serious
studying.

Besides a good team for content development, we can count on a small but
motivated team of developers, and we would like to improve communication with
upstream (a.k.a. you ;-) ), because we found ourselves developing a few
features which could probably be made available to the general public, with
some generalization and polishing. ;-)

Is this a right place to start such a discussion?

We would like to help as much as we can, but we might need some mentoring in
how to best approach MediaWiki development, as many of us are relatively new
to OSS/Web development.

Bye,
-Riccardo


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Brad Jorsch (Anomie)]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 8:22 AM, Riccardo Iaconelli 
wrote:

> We aim to provide a platform where learners and teachers can complete,
> refine
> and re-assemble lecture notes in order to create free, collaborative and
> accessible textbooks, tailored precisely to their needs.
>
[...]

> We are different from Wikipedia and other WMF projects in several ways,
> and in a sense, complementary. Our focus is on creating complete textbooks
> (and not encyclopedic articles), drawing from a professor’s or a student’s
> own notes, either existing or that have to be written down.
>

How does it compare to Wikibooks? From the description it sounds very
similar. Or Wikiversity?


> Besides a good team for content development, we can count on a small but
> motivated team of developers, and we would like to improve communication
> with upstream (a.k.a. you ;-) ), because we found ourselves developing a few
> features which could probably be made available to the general public, with
> some generalization and polishing. ;-)
>
> Is this a right place to start such a discussion?
>

Great! For general communication, this mailing list is probably as good a
place as any.


> We would like to help as much as we can, but we might need some mentoring
> in how to best approach MediaWiki development, as many of us are relatively
> new to OSS/Web development.
>

Have you seen
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_become_a_MediaWiki_hacker and
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Developer_hub yet?

Other advice I can give you is that getting something into MediaWiki core
itself can be daunting, but don't be too afraid to propose a patch adding
it if it really belongs there (even if "it" is just the hook that you need
or a new accessor on some existing class). It can be difficult to find the
right person to review the code and standards can be high, and sometimes
it'll turn out that the thing should be done in a completely different way
than you originally thought, but you're likely to wind up with a better
result than if you hack things up in an extension.


-- 
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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[Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Riccardo Iaconelli]

Hi all,

I would like to introduce to the Wikimedia community WikiToLearn, a FOSS 
project of which I am a participant and which is lately getting a lot of 
contributions and momentum.

It is a KDE project sponsored (among the others) by Wikimedia Italy and 
recently joined by institutions such as HEP Software Foundation (CERN, 
Fermilab, Princeton...) or Universities such as University of Pisa and Milano-
Bicocca. These institutions are already populating the website with content.

We aim to provide a platform where learners and teachers can complete, refine 
and re-assemble lecture notes in order to create free, collaborative and 
accessible textbooks, tailored precisely to their needs.

Although the project is quite young (only a few months old), it is already 
growing in allure at an unexpected rate. Thanks to this we are now counting on 
nearly 40 developers, and growing (including content developers).

We are different from Wikipedia and other WMF projects in several ways, and in 
a sense, complementary. Our focus is on creating complete textbooks (and not 
encyclopedic articles), drawing from a professor’s or a student’s own notes, 
either existing or that have to be written down.

We also have a strong focus on offline use: all the content of WikiToLearn 
should be easily printable by any student for offline use and serious 
studying.

Besides a good team for content development, we can count on a small but 
motivated team of developers, and we would like to improve communication with 
upstream (a.k.a. you ;-) ), because we found ourselves developing a few 
features which could probably be made available to the general public, with 
some generalization and polishing. ;-)

Is this a right place to start such a discussion?

We would like to help as much as we can, but we might need some mentoring in 
how to best approach MediaWiki development, as many of us are relatively new 
to OSS/Web development.

Bye,
-Riccardo


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