Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

[Alex Monk]

Well yes, but so will the rest of the world that uses DST.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 21:04 Brad Jorsch (Anomie), 
wrote:

> My point was that if CA and Europe accepts those proposals then the rest
> of the US that still uses DST would have the problem that things would move
> around when DST starts or ends, so it just moves the problem around instead
> of really getting rid of it.
>
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Alex Monk  wrote:
>
>> As long as these get pinned to SF time what the rest of the US does with
>> regards to DST is irrelevant. If California drops DST then it no longer
>> affects deployments pinned to SF time.
>>
>> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 19:42 Brad Jorsch (Anomie), 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Kunal Mehta 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 (un)relatedly:
 * EU survey to remove summertime/DST:
 <
 https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2018-summertime-arrangements?surve
 ylanguage=EN
 
 >
 * California Proposition 7 (2018) to institute a permanent DST:
 <
 https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Permanent_Daylight_Sa
 ving_Time_Measure_(2018
 
 )>

 Hopefully we can get rid of this problem at the root cause as well :)

>>>
>>> You forgot about most of the rest of the US ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
>>> Senior Software Engineer
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>> ___
>>> Engineering mailing list
>>> engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
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[Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

[Alex Monk]

As long as these get pinned to SF time what the rest of the US does with
regards to DST is irrelevant. If California drops DST then it no longer
affects deployments pinned to SF time.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 19:42 Brad Jorsch (Anomie), 
wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Kunal Mehta 
> wrote:
>
>> (un)relatedly:
>> * EU survey to remove summertime/DST:
>> > ylanguage=EN
>> 
>> >
>> * California Proposition 7 (2018) to institute a permanent DST:
>> > ving_Time_Measure_(2018
>> 
>> )>
>>
>> Hopefully we can get rid of this problem at the root cause as well :)
>>
>
> You forgot about most of the rest of the US ;)
>
>
> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
> ___
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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

[Brad Jorsch (Anomie)]

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Kunal Mehta 
wrote:

> (un)relatedly:
> * EU survey to remove summertime/DST:
>  ylanguage=EN>
> * California Proposition 7 (2018) to institute a permanent DST:
>  ving_Time_Measure_(2018)>
>
> Hopefully we can get rid of this problem at the root cause as well :)
>

You forgot about most of the rest of the US ;)


-- 
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

[Kunal Mehta]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi,

On 07/11/2018 12:05 AM, Marko Obrovac wrote:
> It seems to me that it will be confusing only to non-US people,
> honestly, which are the ones benefiting from this change. When DST
> changes are applied, and because they are not applied at the same
> across the globe, people will see their SWAT times change for no
> apparent reason. At the same time, there is plenty of hours of
> difference between the last deploy window mentioned in your email
> and the first SF-centric deployment window to account for the
> periods when DST settings vary.

(un)relatedly:
* EU survey to remove summertime/DST:

* California Proposition 7 (2018) to institute a permanent DST:


Hopefully we can get rid of this problem at the root cause as well :)

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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

[Piotr Miazga]

I agree with Marko, every time there is a DST change my calendar is totally
messed up (some events are pinned to the Pacific time zone, other to the
Central European time zone). By pinning everything to UTC we could save
that confusion.

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:05 AM Marko Obrovac 
wrote:

> On 11 July 2018 at 00:47, Greg Grossmeier  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Great question! (Unfortunately) for simplicity we will keep the windows
>> pinned to SF/Pacific timezone. Some windows moving and others not would
>> create too much confusion; even more than the normal daylight savings
>> changes already do.
>>
>
> It seems to me that it will be confusing only to non-US people, honestly,
> which are the ones benefiting from this change. When DST changes are
> applied, and because they are not applied at the same across the globe,
> people will see their SWAT times change for no apparent reason. At the same
> time, there is plenty of hours of difference between the last deploy window
> mentioned in your email and the first SF-centric deployment window to
> account for the periods when DST settings vary.
>
> I believe that pinning them to UTC would actually eliminate the confusion.
>
>
> My 2 cents,
> Marko
>
> Marko Obrovac, PhD
> Senior Services Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> --
>> | Greg GrossmeierGPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
>> | Release Team ManagerA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
>>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

[Marko Obrovac]

On 11 July 2018 at 00:47, Greg Grossmeier  wrote:
>
>
> Great question! (Unfortunately) for simplicity we will keep the windows
> pinned to SF/Pacific timezone. Some windows moving and others not would
> create too much confusion; even more than the normal daylight savings
> changes already do.
>

It seems to me that it will be confusing only to non-US people, honestly,
which are the ones benefiting from this change. When DST changes are
applied, and because they are not applied at the same across the globe,
people will see their SWAT times change for no apparent reason. At the same
time, there is plenty of hours of difference between the last deploy window
mentioned in your email and the first SF-centric deployment window to
account for the periods when DST settings vary.

I believe that pinning them to UTC would actually eliminate the confusion.


My 2 cents,
Marko

Marko Obrovac, PhD
Senior Services Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation



>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
>
> --
> | Greg GrossmeierGPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
> | Release Team ManagerA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

[Greg Grossmeier]

> One question/clarification, though: deployment windows have traditionally
> been pinned to SF time (wrt DST changes, concretely), but in your email you
> list them in CEST/UTC. Does that imply that these slots are pinned to
> Europe's DST, UTC or will they stay pinned to pacific DST?

Great question! (Unfortunately) for simplicity we will keep the windows
pinned to SF/Pacific timezone. Some windows moving and others not would
create too much confusion; even more than the normal daylight savings
changes already do.

Thanks,

Greg

-- 
| Greg GrossmeierGPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
| Release Team ManagerA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |


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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

[Marko Obrovac]

Hello Greg,

I think this is a great initiative and will surely ease work for all people
working on the positive spectrum of UTC :)

One question/clarification, though: deployment windows have traditionally
been pinned to SF time (wrt DST changes, concretely), but in your email you
list them in CEST/UTC. Does that imply that these slots are pinned to
Europe's DST, UTC or will they stay pinned to pacific DST?

Cheers,
Marko


Marko Obrovac, PhD
Senior Services Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation

On 9 July 2018 at 20:28, Greg Grossmeier  wrote:

> Reminder that this is starting this week (tomorrow).
>
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > The Release Engineering team will be expanding the set of people
> > responsible for the weekly MediaWiki train deployments[0] to include
> > people working normal European hours. Unfortunately, the current MW
> > train deployment window is too late in the day for them.
> >
> > To address this we are adding a European-focused timeslot for the MW
> > train (and moving the current "EU SWAT window" 2 hours earlier to
> > accommodate).
> >
> > The first planned use of the new window will be next week, the week of
> > July 9th.
> >
> > For the avoidance of doubt: the normal MW train windows will not go
> > away, these EU-timezone ones are in addition to them and only used
> > during weeks that the train is conducted by someone in Europe. But, the
> > EU SWAT window will indeed be permanently moved for simplicity (IOW: not
> > dependent upon who's doing the train).
> >
> > == European train window and changes ==
> > This would affect Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday
> >
> > * 1300-1400 CEST (1100-1200 UTC) - EU SWAT window (2 hours earlier)
> > * 1400-1500 CEST (1200-1300 UTC) - Break
> > * 1500-1700 CEST (1300-1500 UTC) - EU Train window
> > * 1700-1800 CEST (1500-1600 UTC) - Break
> > * 1800-1900 CEST (1600-1700 UTC) - PuppetSWAT (Tue/Thu only, no change)
> >
> >
> > Also, at the same time we'll be moving the Wednesday morning (SF time)
> > SWAT window on hour earlier to 9am Pacific. This is to alleviate a
> > contention with the weekly Scrum of Scrums meeting.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.32/Roadmap
> >
> > --
> > | Greg GrossmeierGPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
> > | Release Team ManagerA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
>
>
>
> --
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> | Release Team ManagerA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
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