RE: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
Change to Motorola Canopy ! ducking ! Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.767.7466 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532 I just installed a link using CM9, Station Server, WRAP board, about 300 yards away LOS, with only a single client so far on AP to SU mode. The radios associated at 54 mbps, and about -70 db, with a quality of 24/29. All speed enhancement features enable, and encryption turned off. Using Station server throughput test, testing from AP, the RX was 13.6 mbps, and the TX was 9.1 mbps. I thought that was odd, because I thought the TX would be faster. (AP to SU) This supported my estimates that 54 mbps Atheros card's top real throughput (for 54 mbps) was about 14 mbps, in a best case scenario. Then through in longer range links, interference, hidden node (or CTS/RTS to cure), retransmissions, heavy use links, and before you know real throughput can be much less than 10 mbps. Asumming of course Turbo Mode won't be used to hog up channels. My tech question is... Is this being limited by the Atheros chipset, or the WRAP motherboard? If using the Mikrotik RB532 board with higher processing speed, can a single Atheros card transfer at a higher rate? For those interested My business decission question is: 1) If Atheros can't go higher than 10 mbps in real world PtMP and... 2) Trango has fixed its short range packet loss problem (which they have) 3) Trango has new low pricing on Fox-D2 CPE (dropped $100 or so) 4) Trango has better testing tools 5) Trango avoids all the problems of 802.11 standard and home brew that cost ISPs aggrevations (accept large packets 1600b, pre-assembles, consistent availabilty, security, better remote management, ARQ, etc), What reason would there be to use anything but Trango broadband, even for small community projects? 802.11 Atheros gives you... 1) Mesh designs 2) Relay radio designs, multiple antennas/links per single unit, with only a $50 cost per radio card added. 3) HotSpot, compatible with laptops built-in config. 4) Built in VLAN switch, when used with Mikrotik RB532daughter card. 5) OMNI support, when 6 sector design not needed. 6) One radio to stock, that supports ALL Freqs, for easy on the fly adaptabilty (pending antenna swap). #2 was good to reduce roof top colocation costs, by not needing to discuss the need to install two radios with a landlord for roof top approval. My recent interest, was for #4 and #5 for a small multi-building / multi-tenant complex. I reduce AP costs, by using only one AP w/ OMNI (OK for short range), apposed to Trango sector model. In a worse case scenario, where a Trango 60 degree, would cover all MTUs based on edge of complex placement, Mikrotik 802.11 would still save about $400 on the AP side. On the MTU side, I would normally pay $385 for 802.1q VLAN switch (24 port) for EACH building, apposed to $99 additional for Mikrotik RB daughter card (total of 9 ports including RB532). Many complexes have less than 8 subscribers per building. But if we use an example of a 4 building project, the savings for a VLAN switch would add up quick to around $1100, and adding simplicity with maintenance of only one device (the CPE/Router/VLAN combo) instead of two devices (VLAN switch and CPE Router). It also reduces costs for remote reboot devices, as the Mikrotik has a hardware watch dog, where as a typical VLAN switch would not. We use WDS to accomplish VLAN support. We use VLAN support for several reasons. 1) it protects end users from seeing other end users for security. 2) It allows us to more easilly centrally bandwidth manage and route via VLAN (per customer), apposed to paying attention to IPs and MACs which may have the need to change over time, or may not be known in advance. 3) Prevents customer's misconfigurations from effecting other users' links or router configs. Because the traffic doesn't cross paths, it can't conflict. The misconfigured client only gets effected. I will say, after all the time it has taken me to order, deploy, figure out how to configure, and wait for equipment stalling reocurring revenue, I'd argue I would have saved by just deploying Trango and VLAN switches to the project. Another problem, is that if VLAN is used, its no longer possible to use a Trango sector for both VLAN and non-VLAN customers at the same time, because large VLAN packets would get their would be no VLAN device on the Non-VLAN custoemrs to untag In summary... 1) If Trango would add a third external connector option to their 5830AP line, like the 900APs, it would drastically reduce the justification of home brew wifi, making it much more affordable to use Trango for these type projects. It still wouldn't fix the VLAN cost reductions,
Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
300 yards with LOS with a signal of -70 dB? That sure seems low. You either have another system real close or you have severe trouble with antenna or cabling. A Superpass 21 dB at that range would give you -40 dB or better signals, assuming proper cabling. Did you set the distance to a couple of miles? I always figure out the exact number and add 2 or 3 to it. You can safely be over but to be under limits throughput severely. Lonnie On 10/10/05, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just installed a link using CM9, Station Server, WRAP board, about 300 yards away LOS, with only a single client so far on AP to SU mode. The radios associated at 54 mbps, and about -70 db, with a quality of 24/29. All speed enhancement features enable, and encryption turned off. Using Station server throughput test, testing from AP, the RX was 13.6 mbps, and the TX was 9.1 mbps. I thought that was odd, because I thought the TX would be faster. (AP to SU) This supported my estimates that 54 mbps Atheros card's top real throughput (for 54 mbps) was about 14 mbps, in a best case scenario. Then through in longer range links, interference, hidden node (or CTS/RTS to cure), retransmissions, heavy use links, and before you know real throughput can be much less than 10 mbps. Asumming of course Turbo Mode won't be used to hog up channels. My tech question is... Is this being limited by the Atheros chipset, or the WRAP motherboard? If using the Mikrotik RB532 board with higher processing speed, can a single Atheros card transfer at a higher rate? For those interested My business decission question is: 1) If Atheros can't go higher than 10 mbps in real world PtMP and... 2) Trango has fixed its short range packet loss problem (which they have) 3) Trango has new low pricing on Fox-D2 CPE (dropped $100 or so) 4) Trango has better testing tools 5) Trango avoids all the problems of 802.11 standard and home brew that cost ISPs aggrevations (accept large packets 1600b, pre-assembles, consistent availabilty, security, better remote management, ARQ, etc), What reason would there be to use anything but Trango broadband, even for small community projects? 802.11 Atheros gives you... 1) Mesh designs 2) Relay radio designs, multiple antennas/links per single unit, with only a $50 cost per radio card added. 3) HotSpot, compatible with laptops built-in config. 4) Built in VLAN switch, when used with Mikrotik RB532daughter card. 5) OMNI support, when 6 sector design not needed. 6) One radio to stock, that supports ALL Freqs, for easy on the fly adaptabilty (pending antenna swap). #2 was good to reduce roof top colocation costs, by not needing to discuss the need to install two radios with a landlord for roof top approval. My recent interest, was for #4 and #5 for a small multi-building / multi-tenant complex. I reduce AP costs, by using only one AP w/ OMNI (OK for short range), apposed to Trango sector model. In a worse case scenario, where a Trango 60 degree, would cover all MTUs based on edge of complex placement, Mikrotik 802.11 would still save about $400 on the AP side. On the MTU side, I would normally pay $385 for 802.1q VLAN switch (24 port) for EACH building, apposed to $99 additional for Mikrotik RB daughter card (total of 9 ports including RB532). Many complexes have less than 8 subscribers per building. But if we use an example of a 4 building project, the savings for a VLAN switch would add up quick to around $1100, and adding simplicity with maintenance of only one device (the CPE/Router/VLAN combo) instead of two devices (VLAN switch and CPE Router). It also reduces costs for remote reboot devices, as the Mikrotik has a hardware watch dog, where as a typical VLAN switch would not. We use WDS to accomplish VLAN support. We use VLAN support for several reasons. 1) it protects end users from seeing other end users for security. 2) It allows us to more easilly centrally bandwidth manage and route via VLAN (per customer), apposed to paying attention to IPs and MACs which may have the need to change over time, or may not be known in advance. 3) Prevents customer's misconfigurations from effecting other users' links or router configs. Because the traffic doesn't cross paths, it can't conflict. The misconfigured client only gets effected. I will say, after all the time it has taken me to order, deploy, figure out how to configure, and wait for equipment stalling reocurring revenue, I'd argue I would have saved by just deploying Trango and VLAN switches to the project. Another problem, is that if VLAN is used, its no longer possible to use a Trango sector for both VLAN and non-VLAN customers at the same time, because large VLAN packets would get their would be no VLAN device on the Non-VLAN custoemrs to untag In summary... 1) If Trango would add a third external connector option to their 5830AP line, like the 900APs, it would
Re: [WISPA] MRTG
Ok, so I have got it working. Should I graph bytes or bits? Brian -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] MRTG
I find bits to be more useful simply because we sell packages based around bits (1.5Mbit, 3Mbit, 10Mbit, etc). Graphing in bits lets me look at the graphs and quickly determine the amount of throughput a given user or link is getting in relation to what I sold them. If it were graphed in bytes I would have to think about it for a minute and do some math. -- Aubrey Wells AirInfinite [EMAIL PROTECTED] o: (404) 601.1407 f: (404) 601.1408 c: (770) 356.9767 Brian Rohrbacher wrote: Ok, so I have got it working. Should I graph bytes or bits? Brian -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
The wraps have a limitation, maybe the client does as well. Turn on the advanced features and it will go more speed. Buy WAR boads and StarVX and go TWICE as fast or use HALF the channel space. George Tom DeReggi wrote: I just installed a link using CM9, Station Server, WRAP board, about 300 yards away LOS, with only a single client so far on AP to SU mode. The radios associated at 54 mbps, and about -70 db, with a quality of 24/29. All speed enhancement features enable, and encryption turned off. Using Station server throughput test, testing from AP, the RX was 13.6 mbps, and the TX was 9.1 mbps. I thought that was odd, because I thought the TX would be faster. (AP to SU) This supported my estimates that 54 mbps Atheros card's top real throughput (for 54 mbps) was about 14 mbps, in a best case scenario. Then through in longer range links, interference, hidden node (or CTS/RTS to cure), retransmissions, heavy use links, and before you know real throughput can be much less than 10 mbps. Asumming of course Turbo Mode won't be used to hog up channels. My tech question is... Is this being limited by the Atheros chipset, or the WRAP motherboard? If using the Mikrotik RB532 board with higher processing speed, can a single Atheros card transfer at a higher rate? For those interested My business decission question is: 1) If Atheros can't go higher than 10 mbps in real world PtMP and... 2) Trango has fixed its short range packet loss problem (which they have) 3) Trango has new low pricing on Fox-D2 CPE (dropped $100 or so) 4) Trango has better testing tools 5) Trango avoids all the problems of 802.11 standard and home brew that cost ISPs aggrevations (accept large packets 1600b, pre-assembles, consistent availabilty, security, better remote management, ARQ, etc), What reason would there be to use anything but Trango broadband, even for small community projects? 802.11 Atheros gives you... 1) Mesh designs 2) Relay radio designs, multiple antennas/links per single unit, with only a $50 cost per radio card added. 3) HotSpot, compatible with laptops built-in config. 4) Built in VLAN switch, when used with Mikrotik RB532daughter card. 5) OMNI support, when 6 sector design not needed. 6) One radio to stock, that supports ALL Freqs, for easy on the fly adaptabilty (pending antenna swap). #2 was good to reduce roof top colocation costs, by not needing to discuss the need to install two radios with a landlord for roof top approval. My recent interest, was for #4 and #5 for a small multi-building / multi-tenant complex. I reduce AP costs, by using only one AP w/ OMNI (OK for short range), apposed to Trango sector model. In a worse case scenario, where a Trango 60 degree, would cover all MTUs based on edge of complex placement, Mikrotik 802.11 would still save about $400 on the AP side. On the MTU side, I would normally pay $385 for 802.1q VLAN switch (24 port) for EACH building, apposed to $99 additional for Mikrotik RB daughter card (total of 9 ports including RB532). Many complexes have less than 8 subscribers per building. But if we use an example of a 4 building project, the savings for a VLAN switch would add up quick to around $1100, and adding simplicity with maintenance of only one device (the CPE/Router/VLAN combo) instead of two devices (VLAN switch and CPE Router). It also reduces costs for remote reboot devices, as the Mikrotik has a hardware watch dog, where as a typical VLAN switch would not. We use WDS to accomplish VLAN support. We use VLAN support for several reasons. 1) it protects end users from seeing other end users for security. 2) It allows us to more easilly centrally bandwidth manage and route via VLAN (per customer), apposed to paying attention to IPs and MACs which may have the need to change over time, or may not be known in advance. 3) Prevents customer's misconfigurations from effecting other users' links or router configs. Because the traffic doesn't cross paths, it can't conflict. The misconfigured client only gets effected. I will say, after all the time it has taken me to order, deploy, figure out how to configure, and wait for equipment stalling reocurring revenue, I'd argue I would have saved by just deploying Trango and VLAN switches to the project. Another problem, is that if VLAN is used, its no longer possible to use a Trango sector for both VLAN and non-VLAN customers at the same time, because large VLAN packets would get their would be no VLAN device on the Non-VLAN custoemrs to untag In summary... 1) If Trango would add a third external connector option to their 5830AP line, like the 900APs, it would drastically reduce the justification of home brew wifi, making it much more affordable to use Trango for these type projects. It still wouldn't fix the VLAN cost reductions, but then again so what. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -
Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
Sounds like you just want an external antenna jack on the Access5830. If so, you might consider doing something similar to what the LastMileGear guys do with the Canopy 5.7 gear. -Matt Tom DeReggi wrote: I just installed a link using CM9, Station Server, WRAP board, about 300 yards away LOS, with only a single client so far on AP to SU mode. The radios associated at 54 mbps, and about -70 db, with a quality of 24/29. All speed enhancement features enable, and encryption turned off. Using Station server throughput test, testing from AP, the RX was 13.6 mbps, and the TX was 9.1 mbps. I thought that was odd, because I thought the TX would be faster. (AP to SU) This supported my estimates that 54 mbps Atheros card's top real throughput (for 54 mbps) was about 14 mbps, in a best case scenario. Then through in longer range links, interference, hidden node (or CTS/RTS to cure), retransmissions, heavy use links, and before you know real throughput can be much less than 10 mbps. Asumming of course Turbo Mode won't be used to hog up channels. My tech question is... Is this being limited by the Atheros chipset, or the WRAP motherboard? If using the Mikrotik RB532 board with higher processing speed, can a single Atheros card transfer at a higher rate? For those interested My business decission question is: 1) If Atheros can't go higher than 10 mbps in real world PtMP and... 2) Trango has fixed its short range packet loss problem (which they have) 3) Trango has new low pricing on Fox-D2 CPE (dropped $100 or so) 4) Trango has better testing tools 5) Trango avoids all the problems of 802.11 standard and home brew that cost ISPs aggrevations (accept large packets 1600b, pre-assembles, consistent availabilty, security, better remote management, ARQ, etc), What reason would there be to use anything but Trango broadband, even for small community projects? 802.11 Atheros gives you... 1) Mesh designs 2) Relay radio designs, multiple antennas/links per single unit, with only a $50 cost per radio card added. 3) HotSpot, compatible with laptops built-in config. 4) Built in VLAN switch, when used with Mikrotik RB532daughter card. 5) OMNI support, when 6 sector design not needed. 6) One radio to stock, that supports ALL Freqs, for easy on the fly adaptabilty (pending antenna swap). #2 was good to reduce roof top colocation costs, by not needing to discuss the need to install two radios with a landlord for roof top approval. My recent interest, was for #4 and #5 for a small multi-building / multi-tenant complex. I reduce AP costs, by using only one AP w/ OMNI (OK for short range), apposed to Trango sector model. In a worse case scenario, where a Trango 60 degree, would cover all MTUs based on edge of complex placement, Mikrotik 802.11 would still save about $400 on the AP side. On the MTU side, I would normally pay $385 for 802.1q VLAN switch (24 port) for EACH building, apposed to $99 additional for Mikrotik RB daughter card (total of 9 ports including RB532). Many complexes have less than 8 subscribers per building. But if we use an example of a 4 building project, the savings for a VLAN switch would add up quick to around $1100, and adding simplicity with maintenance of only one device (the CPE/Router/VLAN combo) instead of two devices (VLAN switch and CPE Router). It also reduces costs for remote reboot devices, as the Mikrotik has a hardware watch dog, where as a typical VLAN switch would not. We use WDS to accomplish VLAN support. We use VLAN support for several reasons. 1) it protects end users from seeing other end users for security. 2) It allows us to more easilly centrally bandwidth manage and route via VLAN (per customer), apposed to paying attention to IPs and MACs which may have the need to change over time, or may not be known in advance. 3) Prevents customer's misconfigurations from effecting other users' links or router configs. Because the traffic doesn't cross paths, it can't conflict. The misconfigured client only gets effected. I will say, after all the time it has taken me to order, deploy, figure out how to configure, and wait for equipment stalling reocurring revenue, I'd argue I would have saved by just deploying Trango and VLAN switches to the project. Another problem, is that if VLAN is used, its no longer possible to use a Trango sector for both VLAN and non-VLAN customers at the same time, because large VLAN packets would get their would be no VLAN device on the Non-VLAN custoemrs to untag In summary... 1) If Trango would add a third external connector option to their 5830AP line, like the 900APs, it would drastically reduce the justification of home brew wifi, making it much more affordable to use Trango for these type projects. It still wouldn't fix the VLAN cost reductions, but then again so what. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message
Re: [WISPA] MRTG
I set up like 10 different IPs (build config) but it's only graphing the last one. Aubrey Wells wrote: I find bits to be more useful simply because we sell packages based around bits (1.5Mbit, 3Mbit, 10Mbit, etc). Graphing in bits lets me look at the graphs and quickly determine the amount of throughput a given user or link is getting in relation to what I sold them. If it were graphed in bytes I would have to think about it for a minute and do some math. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
That's a easy mod, I have done it myself... Trango gear has a 2 mcx jacks on the pcb ... Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.767.7466 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:14 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532 Sounds like you just want an external antenna jack on the Access5830. If so, you might consider doing something similar to what the LastMileGear guys do with the Canopy 5.7 gear. -Matt Tom DeReggi wrote: I just installed a link using CM9, Station Server, WRAP board, about 300 yards away LOS, with only a single client so far on AP to SU mode. The radios associated at 54 mbps, and about -70 db, with a quality of 24/29. All speed enhancement features enable, and encryption turned off. Using Station server throughput test, testing from AP, the RX was 13.6 mbps, and the TX was 9.1 mbps. I thought that was odd, because I thought the TX would be faster. (AP to SU) This supported my estimates that 54 mbps Atheros card's top real throughput (for 54 mbps) was about 14 mbps, in a best case scenario. Then through in longer range links, interference, hidden node (or CTS/RTS to cure), retransmissions, heavy use links, and before you know real throughput can be much less than 10 mbps. Asumming of course Turbo Mode won't be used to hog up channels. My tech question is... Is this being limited by the Atheros chipset, or the WRAP motherboard? If using the Mikrotik RB532 board with higher processing speed, can a single Atheros card transfer at a higher rate? For those interested My business decission question is: 1) If Atheros can't go higher than 10 mbps in real world PtMP and... 2) Trango has fixed its short range packet loss problem (which they have) 3) Trango has new low pricing on Fox-D2 CPE (dropped $100 or so) 4) Trango has better testing tools 5) Trango avoids all the problems of 802.11 standard and home brew that cost ISPs aggrevations (accept large packets 1600b, pre-assembles, consistent availabilty, security, better remote management, ARQ, etc), What reason would there be to use anything but Trango broadband, even for small community projects? 802.11 Atheros gives you... 1) Mesh designs 2) Relay radio designs, multiple antennas/links per single unit, with only a $50 cost per radio card added. 3) HotSpot, compatible with laptops built-in config. 4) Built in VLAN switch, when used with Mikrotik RB532daughter card. 5) OMNI support, when 6 sector design not needed. 6) One radio to stock, that supports ALL Freqs, for easy on the fly adaptabilty (pending antenna swap). #2 was good to reduce roof top colocation costs, by not needing to discuss the need to install two radios with a landlord for roof top approval. My recent interest, was for #4 and #5 for a small multi-building / multi-tenant complex. I reduce AP costs, by using only one AP w/ OMNI (OK for short range), apposed to Trango sector model. In a worse case scenario, where a Trango 60 degree, would cover all MTUs based on edge of complex placement, Mikrotik 802.11 would still save about $400 on the AP side. On the MTU side, I would normally pay $385 for 802.1q VLAN switch (24 port) for EACH building, apposed to $99 additional for Mikrotik RB daughter card (total of 9 ports including RB532). Many complexes have less than 8 subscribers per building. But if we use an example of a 4 building project, the savings for a VLAN switch would add up quick to around $1100, and adding simplicity with maintenance of only one device (the CPE/Router/VLAN combo) instead of two devices (VLAN switch and CPE Router). It also reduces costs for remote reboot devices, as the Mikrotik has a hardware watch dog, where as a typical VLAN switch would not. We use WDS to accomplish VLAN support. We use VLAN support for several reasons. 1) it protects end users from seeing other end users for security. 2) It allows us to more easilly centrally bandwidth manage and route via VLAN (per customer), apposed to paying attention to IPs and MACs which may have the need to change over time, or may not be known in advance. 3) Prevents customer's misconfigurations from effecting other users' links or router configs. Because the traffic doesn't cross paths, it can't conflict. The misconfigured client only gets effected. I will say, after all the time it has taken me to order, deploy, figure out how to configure, and wait for equipment stalling reocurring revenue, I'd argue I would have saved by just deploying Trango and VLAN switches to the project. Another problem, is that if VLAN is used, its no longer possible to use a Trango sector for both VLAN and non-VLAN customers at the same time, because large VLAN packets would get their would be no VLAN
Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
That's good to know if for no other reason than to use better coax jumpers. It is really annoying that Trango uses RP-SMA connectors as opposed to N. -Matt G.Villarini wrote: That's a easy mod, I have done it myself... Trango gear has a 2 mcx jacks on the pcb ... Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.767.7466 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:14 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532 Sounds like you just want an external antenna jack on the Access5830. If so, you might consider doing something similar to what the LastMileGear guys do with the Canopy 5.7 gear. -Matt Tom DeReggi wrote: I just installed a link using CM9, Station Server, WRAP board, about 300 yards away LOS, with only a single client so far on AP to SU mode. The radios associated at 54 mbps, and about -70 db, with a quality of 24/29. All speed enhancement features enable, and encryption turned off. Using Station server throughput test, testing from AP, the RX was 13.6 mbps, and the TX was 9.1 mbps. I thought that was odd, because I thought the TX would be faster. (AP to SU) This supported my estimates that 54 mbps Atheros card's top real throughput (for 54 mbps) was about 14 mbps, in a best case scenario. Then through in longer range links, interference, hidden node (or CTS/RTS to cure), retransmissions, heavy use links, and before you know real throughput can be much less than 10 mbps. Asumming of course Turbo Mode won't be used to hog up channels. My tech question is... Is this being limited by the Atheros chipset, or the WRAP motherboard? If using the Mikrotik RB532 board with higher processing speed, can a single Atheros card transfer at a higher rate? For those interested My business decission question is: 1) If Atheros can't go higher than 10 mbps in real world PtMP and... 2) Trango has fixed its short range packet loss problem (which they have) 3) Trango has new low pricing on Fox-D2 CPE (dropped $100 or so) 4) Trango has better testing tools 5) Trango avoids all the problems of 802.11 standard and home brew that cost ISPs aggrevations (accept large packets 1600b, pre-assembles, consistent availabilty, security, better remote management, ARQ, etc), What reason would there be to use anything but Trango broadband, even for small community projects? 802.11 Atheros gives you... 1) Mesh designs 2) Relay radio designs, multiple antennas/links per single unit, with only a $50 cost per radio card added. 3) HotSpot, compatible with laptops built-in config. 4) Built in VLAN switch, when used with Mikrotik RB532daughter card. 5) OMNI support, when 6 sector design not needed. 6) One radio to stock, that supports ALL Freqs, for easy on the fly adaptabilty (pending antenna swap). #2 was good to reduce roof top colocation costs, by not needing to discuss the need to install two radios with a landlord for roof top approval. My recent interest, was for #4 and #5 for a small multi-building / multi-tenant complex. I reduce AP costs, by using only one AP w/ OMNI (OK for short range), apposed to Trango sector model. In a worse case scenario, where a Trango 60 degree, would cover all MTUs based on edge of complex placement, Mikrotik 802.11 would still save about $400 on the AP side. On the MTU side, I would normally pay $385 for 802.1q VLAN switch (24 port) for EACH building, apposed to $99 additional for Mikrotik RB daughter card (total of 9 ports including RB532). Many complexes have less than 8 subscribers per building. But if we use an example of a 4 building project, the savings for a VLAN switch would add up quick to around $1100, and adding simplicity with maintenance of only one device (the CPE/Router/VLAN combo) instead of two devices (VLAN switch and CPE Router). It also reduces costs for remote reboot devices, as the Mikrotik has a hardware watch dog, where as a typical VLAN switch would not. We use WDS to accomplish VLAN support. We use VLAN support for several reasons. 1) it protects end users from seeing other end users for security. 2) It allows us to more easilly centrally bandwidth manage and route via VLAN (per customer), apposed to paying attention to IPs and MACs which may have the need to change over time, or may not be known in advance. 3) Prevents customer's misconfigurations from effecting other users' links or router configs. Because the traffic doesn't cross paths, it can't conflict. The misconfigured client only gets effected. I will say, after all the time it has taken me to order, deploy, figure out how to configure, and wait for equipment stalling reocurring revenue, I'd argue I would have saved by just deploying Trango and VLAN switches to the project. Another problem, is that if VLAN is used, its no longer possible to use a
RE: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
I just installed a link using CM9, Station Server, WRAP board, about 300 yards away LOS, with only a single client so far on AP to SU mode. The radios associated at 54 mbps, and about -70 db, with a quality of 24/29. All speed enhancement features enable, and encryption turned off. Using Station server throughput test, testing from AP, the RX was 13.6 mbps, and the TX was 9.1 mbps. Sounds about right, give or take a couple Mbps. I've got one link consisting of two WRAP boards, StarOS/WRAP edition, with CM-9 radio cards. Signal is about -60, noise floats around the mid-90s. The two endpoints are probably about 1/4 mile apart. StarOS's integrated bandwidth test shows about 14Mbps each way. (You have to do both send and receive tests, from both units, to get good average numbers, because sending the packets seems to seriously stress those little tiny CPUs.) In my experience, it seems as though StarOS' numbers are very optimistic (anywhere from 10% to 25% higher than real-world traffic). Having never sniffed the traffic or anything, I'd guess that the bandwidth test uses large packets (maybe even jumbo packets), but real-world IP traffic has a lot of smaller packets, and the per-packet overhead brings down total performance. (This is part of why many people are fond of Mikrotik's proprietary Nstreme extension - if you can live with a couple extra milliseconds of latency, you can get substantially better throughput by bundling all those tiny VOIP and UDP packets together.) When using the StarOS built-in tester, the sending unit's CPU will hit 100%, and the receiver's CPU hits 75% or higher, on WRAP boards. This implies that the CPU may be the bottleneck, not the radio card or the OS. My tech question is... Is this being limited by the Atheros chipset, or the WRAP motherboard? If using the Mikrotik RB532 board with higher processing speed, can a single Atheros card transfer at a higher rate? Get back to me in a week or two on that. :) I've gotten my hands on a couple RB532s, and a couple extra CM-9s. Admittedly, it won't be a completely fair test, since the RouterBoards will be running RouterOS, so it's not a perfect comparison to Valemount's StarOS. But it's the best I can do. Since the WRAPs don't have that much horsepower to begin with, in relative terms, and since these tests pegs the CPU gauge, I suspect CPU is the limiting factor, but I don't have any hard numbers to back this up either way. Anyone picked up one of Valemount's new WAR boards and their modified StarOS distribution for them (StarVX)? For that matter, anyone ever just slapped a miniPCI-PCI converter in some cheap Dell desktop and slammed packets through it? David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
Oops... I'm using 5.3G with 19 dbi antenna, estimating 2 db in cable loss, to meet legal 30db limit. At a half mile, we calculated it to be -54db, and at 1/4 mile -48. However, I was reading the power in station server wrong, I was reading the Ack strength instead of Data strength which were about 10 db different. Any reason for that? The data signal strength was actually reading about -60 db. So yes, you are right, for a 1/4 mile there is about an unaccounted for 12 db loss, unless I don't have the distance right. I do have set at 1 mile in driver. However, low signal doesn't effect speed, my tech has a second radio on it now, at -53 db, and still maxes out at 12mbps. I confirmed that CPU usage hits about 95% when testing, and connection tracking is on. So appears to be CPU limited. Anyone know how much loss to expect out of the PacWireless Rootenna pigtails (ufl to SMA) and Wisp-router's 6Ghz certified 5 Ufl to N pigtails? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532 300 yards with LOS with a signal of -70 dB? That sure seems low. You either have another system real close or you have severe trouble with antenna or cabling. A Superpass 21 dB at that range would give you -40 dB or better signals, assuming proper cabling. Did you set the distance to a couple of miles? I always figure out the exact number and add 2 or 3 to it. You can safely be over but to be under limits throughput severely. Lonnie On 10/10/05, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just installed a link using CM9, Station Server, WRAP board, about 300 yards away LOS, with only a single client so far on AP to SU mode. The radios associated at 54 mbps, and about -70 db, with a quality of 24/29. All speed enhancement features enable, and encryption turned off. Using Station server throughput test, testing from AP, the RX was 13.6 mbps, and the TX was 9.1 mbps. I thought that was odd, because I thought the TX would be faster. (AP to SU) This supported my estimates that 54 mbps Atheros card's top real throughput (for 54 mbps) was about 14 mbps, in a best case scenario. Then through in longer range links, interference, hidden node (or CTS/RTS to cure), retransmissions, heavy use links, and before you know real throughput can be much less than 10 mbps. Asumming of course Turbo Mode won't be used to hog up channels. My tech question is... Is this being limited by the Atheros chipset, or the WRAP motherboard? If using the Mikrotik RB532 board with higher processing speed, can a single Atheros card transfer at a higher rate? For those interested My business decission question is: 1) If Atheros can't go higher than 10 mbps in real world PtMP and... 2) Trango has fixed its short range packet loss problem (which they have) 3) Trango has new low pricing on Fox-D2 CPE (dropped $100 or so) 4) Trango has better testing tools 5) Trango avoids all the problems of 802.11 standard and home brew that cost ISPs aggrevations (accept large packets 1600b, pre-assembles, consistent availabilty, security, better remote management, ARQ, etc), What reason would there be to use anything but Trango broadband, even for small community projects? 802.11 Atheros gives you... 1) Mesh designs 2) Relay radio designs, multiple antennas/links per single unit, with only a $50 cost per radio card added. 3) HotSpot, compatible with laptops built-in config. 4) Built in VLAN switch, when used with Mikrotik RB532daughter card. 5) OMNI support, when 6 sector design not needed. 6) One radio to stock, that supports ALL Freqs, for easy on the fly adaptabilty (pending antenna swap). #2 was good to reduce roof top colocation costs, by not needing to discuss the need to install two radios with a landlord for roof top approval. My recent interest, was for #4 and #5 for a small multi-building / multi-tenant complex. I reduce AP costs, by using only one AP w/ OMNI (OK for short range), apposed to Trango sector model. In a worse case scenario, where a Trango 60 degree, would cover all MTUs based on edge of complex placement, Mikrotik 802.11 would still save about $400 on the AP side. On the MTU side, I would normally pay $385 for 802.1q VLAN switch (24 port) for EACH building, apposed to $99 additional for Mikrotik RB daughter card (total of 9 ports including RB532). Many complexes have less than 8 subscribers per building. But if we use an example of a 4 building project, the savings for a VLAN switch would add up quick to around $1100, and adding simplicity with maintenance of only one device (the CPE/Router/VLAN combo) instead of two devices (VLAN switch and CPE Router). It also reduces costs for remote reboot devices, as the Mikrotik has a hardware watch dog, where as a typical
Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
Actually, I also have made the mods in the past. My point is the manufacturer should make the mods. Maybe they will someday, if they keep hearing justification spelled out. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532 Sounds like you just want an external antenna jack on the Access5830. If so, you might consider doing something similar to what the LastMileGear guys do with the Canopy 5.7 gear. -Matt Tom DeReggi wrote: I just installed a link using CM9, Station Server, WRAP board, about 300 yards away LOS, with only a single client so far on AP to SU mode. The radios associated at 54 mbps, and about -70 db, with a quality of 24/29. All speed enhancement features enable, and encryption turned off. Using Station server throughput test, testing from AP, the RX was 13.6 mbps, and the TX was 9.1 mbps. I thought that was odd, because I thought the TX would be faster. (AP to SU) This supported my estimates that 54 mbps Atheros card's top real throughput (for 54 mbps) was about 14 mbps, in a best case scenario. Then through in longer range links, interference, hidden node (or CTS/RTS to cure), retransmissions, heavy use links, and before you know real throughput can be much less than 10 mbps. Asumming of course Turbo Mode won't be used to hog up channels. My tech question is... Is this being limited by the Atheros chipset, or the WRAP motherboard? If using the Mikrotik RB532 board with higher processing speed, can a single Atheros card transfer at a higher rate? For those interested My business decission question is: 1) If Atheros can't go higher than 10 mbps in real world PtMP and... 2) Trango has fixed its short range packet loss problem (which they have) 3) Trango has new low pricing on Fox-D2 CPE (dropped $100 or so) 4) Trango has better testing tools 5) Trango avoids all the problems of 802.11 standard and home brew that cost ISPs aggrevations (accept large packets 1600b, pre-assembles, consistent availabilty, security, better remote management, ARQ, etc), What reason would there be to use anything but Trango broadband, even for small community projects? 802.11 Atheros gives you... 1) Mesh designs 2) Relay radio designs, multiple antennas/links per single unit, with only a $50 cost per radio card added. 3) HotSpot, compatible with laptops built-in config. 4) Built in VLAN switch, when used with Mikrotik RB532daughter card. 5) OMNI support, when 6 sector design not needed. 6) One radio to stock, that supports ALL Freqs, for easy on the fly adaptabilty (pending antenna swap). #2 was good to reduce roof top colocation costs, by not needing to discuss the need to install two radios with a landlord for roof top approval. My recent interest, was for #4 and #5 for a small multi-building / multi-tenant complex. I reduce AP costs, by using only one AP w/ OMNI (OK for short range), apposed to Trango sector model. In a worse case scenario, where a Trango 60 degree, would cover all MTUs based on edge of complex placement, Mikrotik 802.11 would still save about $400 on the AP side. On the MTU side, I would normally pay $385 for 802.1q VLAN switch (24 port) for EACH building, apposed to $99 additional for Mikrotik RB daughter card (total of 9 ports including RB532). Many complexes have less than 8 subscribers per building. But if we use an example of a 4 building project, the savings for a VLAN switch would add up quick to around $1100, and adding simplicity with maintenance of only one device (the CPE/Router/VLAN combo) instead of two devices (VLAN switch and CPE Router). It also reduces costs for remote reboot devices, as the Mikrotik has a hardware watch dog, where as a typical VLAN switch would not. We use WDS to accomplish VLAN support. We use VLAN support for several reasons. 1) it protects end users from seeing other end users for security. 2) It allows us to more easilly centrally bandwidth manage and route via VLAN (per customer), apposed to paying attention to IPs and MACs which may have the need to change over time, or may not be known in advance. 3) Prevents customer's misconfigurations from effecting other users' links or router configs. Because the traffic doesn't cross paths, it can't conflict. The misconfigured client only gets effected. I will say, after all the time it has taken me to order, deploy, figure out how to configure, and wait for equipment stalling reocurring revenue, I'd argue I would have saved by just deploying Trango and VLAN switches to the project. Another problem, is that if VLAN is used, its no longer possible to use a Trango sector for both VLAN and non-VLAN customers at the same time, because large VLAN packets would get their would be no VLAN device on the
Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
Our test uses large packets and TCP. The problem is that the bandwidth tester consumes a lot of the CPU, so the solution is to test between machines on the edges, and thus get the true throughput without the limitations of CPU speed. Lots of guys have used desktop machines and found that the actually Atheros output can exceed 100 mbps in Turbo mode. Of course that sort of test cannot be done through an Ethernet, it is radio to radio. The advanced features of the Atheros cards will do packet aggregation for the system. Thus you will not notice any system trouble with a bunch of small packets as you get with VOIP and gaming. That type of traffic can bring a Prism system to its knees. The new StarVx also honours the VOIP priority bits in the headers. Lonnie On 10/10/05, David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just installed a link using CM9, Station Server, WRAP board, about 300 yards away LOS, with only a single client so far on AP to SU mode. The radios associated at 54 mbps, and about -70 db, with a quality of 24/29. All speed enhancement features enable, and encryption turned off. Using Station server throughput test, testing from AP, the RX was 13.6 mbps, and the TX was 9.1 mbps. Sounds about right, give or take a couple Mbps. I've got one link consisting of two WRAP boards, StarOS/WRAP edition, with CM-9 radio cards. Signal is about -60, noise floats around the mid-90s. The two endpoints are probably about 1/4 mile apart. StarOS's integrated bandwidth test shows about 14Mbps each way. (You have to do both send and receive tests, from both units, to get good average numbers, because sending the packets seems to seriously stress those little tiny CPUs.) In my experience, it seems as though StarOS' numbers are very optimistic (anywhere from 10% to 25% higher than real-world traffic). Having never sniffed the traffic or anything, I'd guess that the bandwidth test uses large packets (maybe even jumbo packets), but real-world IP traffic has a lot of smaller packets, and the per-packet overhead brings down total performance. (This is part of why many people are fond of Mikrotik's proprietary Nstreme extension - if you can live with a couple extra milliseconds of latency, you can get substantially better throughput by bundling all those tiny VOIP and UDP packets together.) When using the StarOS built-in tester, the sending unit's CPU will hit 100%, and the receiver's CPU hits 75% or higher, on WRAP boards. This implies that the CPU may be the bottleneck, not the radio card or the OS. My tech question is... Is this being limited by the Atheros chipset, or the WRAP motherboard? If using the Mikrotik RB532 board with higher processing speed, can a single Atheros card transfer at a higher rate? Get back to me in a week or two on that. :) I've gotten my hands on a couple RB532s, and a couple extra CM-9s. Admittedly, it won't be a completely fair test, since the RouterBoards will be running RouterOS, so it's not a perfect comparison to Valemount's StarOS. But it's the best I can do. Since the WRAPs don't have that much horsepower to begin with, in relative terms, and since these tests pegs the CPU gauge, I suspect CPU is the limiting factor, but I don't have any hard numbers to back this up either way. Anyone picked up one of Valemount's new WAR boards and their modified StarOS distribution for them (StarVX)? For that matter, anyone ever just slapped a miniPCI-PCI converter in some cheap Dell desktop and slammed packets through it? David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
Ahhh you've never cracked one open to see what's inside? Ask Gino, you have to take everything apart and see what makes it tick. :) George Matt Liotta wrote: That's good to know if for no other reason than to use better coax jumpers. It is really annoying that Trango uses RP-SMA connectors as opposed to N. -Matt G.Villarini wrote: That's a easy mod, I have done it myself... Trango gear has a 2 mcx jacks on the pcb ... -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
Anyone picked up one of Valemount's new WAR boards and their modified StarOS distribution for them (StarVX)? David Smith MVN.net Yeppers, I have a couple of PtP links using the WAR StarVX. Using cloaking, 5 and 10MHz channel spacing in 5 gig. http://www.oregonfast.net/gofast/WAR/10MHz%20war%20test%201%20way.JPG Other pics of various testing of the war boards: http://www.oregonfast.net/gofast/WAR/ George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Atheros speed WRAP vs RB532
George wrote: Anyone picked up one of Valemount's new WAR boards and their modified StarOS distribution for them (StarVX)? Yeppers, I have a couple of PtP links using the WAR StarVX. Using cloaking, 5 and 10MHz channel spacing in 5 gig. http://www.oregonfast.net/gofast/WAR/10MHz%20war%20test%201%20way.JPG Gah. Is that... a Windows GUI? Just what I need, another interface to learn. Someone pester Lonnie and tell him to make StarVX look like StarOS so I can just slap stuff in and go. :D David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/