RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Yep. 2 separate WRAP boards in 2 separate mini-box metal enclosures. I have had a look at the spec sheet for the RadioWaves antenna's but they don't mention any isolation between the horizontal and vertical N-Type ports. Have you used these particular antennas before? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 16 January 2006 23:40 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Hey Paul, Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. But both radios are 5.7-5.8 range without issues. I can't answer what you are doing wrong. It should work without issue. You are using 2 seperate WRAP boards...corrrect?? -B- Paul Hendry wrote: Bob, are you saying that you are running 2 simultaneous links through 2 separate StarOS powered WRAP/CM9 on a single dual-polarized antenna with no other hardware? I have tried this on 2 separate links running horizontal at 5.8 and vertical at 5.2 but still cannot download through one link without impacting the other. What am I doing wrong? The radios are connected to the antennas via very short pigtails and about 2 feet of LMR-400. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 14/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Paul Hendry wrote: Yep. 2 separate WRAP boards in 2 separate mini-box metal enclosures. I have had a look at the spec sheet for the RadioWaves antenna's but they don't mention any isolation between the horizontal and vertical N-Type ports. Have you used these particular antennas before? I have not used the dual polarity Radiowaves. We use predominately Gabriel-Tripoint. We had some issues with Radiowaves flat panel antennas that were not doing the gain they should be (6-8 dB less) . I have not had any issues with their parabolics though -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
On a side note, for general info, not necessarilly applicable to the task in question Just because an antenna is Dual polarity, does not mean that both polarities can be used at the same time by seperate signals. The wiring/circuitry (what ever its called for an antenna) may be shared by the two pols, and bonded togeather in some way. The DUAL Polarity antenna has to be designed with two completely unique circuits to the antenna from the N connector, for both pols to be used at the same time. Secondly, Any two antenna elements near each other can work togeather two create the antenna beam. Just like an Omni or Panel antenna that is really just several antenna elements place appropriately to work togeather to increase gain and reduce beamwidth. Its very common to use both polarities at the same time for the same signal, but a much different matter two have two seperate signals and not have them interfere. Polarity isolation is often not enough when smack dab right next to each other. In theory 90 degrees off polarity equals 100% isolation, but in the real world its closer to 15-20 DB, but is that considering between the antennas elements right there, or signal comming from the enviroment getting shielded out? Who knows. Its very possible that 5.2 and 5.8 may not be far enough apart from each other to colocate on the same antenna, however I don't know that for a fact (harmonics and stuff like that). However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna. The point I'm making is not what can and cant be done, just that not all antennas Dual Pol antennas are designed the same, and what you can pull off on one, may not be able to be pulled off on another type. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:23 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, are you saying that you are running 2 simultaneous links through 2 separate StarOS powered WRAP/CM9 on a single dual-polarized antenna with no other hardware? I have tried this on 2 separate links running horizontal at 5.8 and vertical at 5.2 but still cannot download through one link without impacting the other. What am I doing wrong? The radios are connected to the antennas via very short pigtails and about 2 feet of LMR-400. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 16 January 2006 15:18 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Why would you use an isolator If we are talking possible adjacent channel interference then an isolator is not the cure, aditional filtering would be. But most equipment should be able to work in this environment without it. I have sites that have 4 WRAP boards with CM9's sitting right next to each other on the next adjacent channel with no issues. In addition, the loss of power is not acceptable (though it wouldn't be half power at 5GHz.). -B- Richard Goodin wrote: Go to some of the hard core LMR delers and ask for isolators, (They will cut your power in half). Your LMR dealer will need to know power, frequency, type of connectors. This may work, I do not know. - Original Message - *From:* Paul Hendry mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2006 5:14 AM *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can see that would help are band pass filters. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas. Not 2 radios on one antenna -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 14/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 14/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Hello all
Marlon, thanks wll take tha into consideration. On 1/17/06, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a LOT of customers in a very small area. Use sector antennas, no omni and NO amps Keep things low to the ground. Work your channel plans very carefully. marlon - Original Message - From: Folajimi Atoki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Hello all I have an overseas client who wants to start on WISP. He is targeting residential homes and small businesses. His budgeting a customer base of about five thousand and wants to cover a 30 mile radius starting off. I offered him a product that I am familiar with called the smartBridges airBridge which is a reciver placed in each clients home. AirPoint-PROx Outdoor Access Point which broadcasts the signals form the base station. Other Hardwares are gotten from the same company. They function on a different bandwidth which I also took into consideration. Any one familiar with these products or have any other suggestions I would appreciate input. Thanks On 1/16/06, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For antenna stuff please read: http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/antenna/how_to_pick_the_right_antenna.htm As for the rest of your questions, please give us some more details. What will the customer base be like? How many do you expect? What ranges will you need to cover? What will you charge? And about a hundred more marlon - Original Message - From: Folajimi Atoki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 5:45 PM Subject: [WISPA] Hello all Hi, I am a new member. I involved in real estate, but dabble in wireless technology. I have a client who wants to become a strictly WISP. Any suggestions on hardware options especially antennas. Happy helpings -- JIMI ATOKI THE REAL ESTATE SOLUTIONS NETWORK LOAN OFFICER/REAL ESTATE CONSULTANT 866-937-4776 EXT 706 CELL (631)-664-3931 www.thersn.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- JIMI ATOKI THE REAL ESTATE SOLUTIONS NETWORK LOAN OFFICER/REAL ESTATE CONSULTANT 866-937-4776 EXT 706 CELL (631)-664-3931 www.thersn.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- JIMI ATOKI THE REAL ESTATE SOLUTIONS NETWORK LOAN OFFICER/REAL ESTATE CONSULTANT 866-937-4776 EXT 706 CELL (631)-664-3931 www.thersn.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] contact info for Patrick Leary
Anyone have Patrick's contact info. I need to talk with him ASAP. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com Free World Dialup #481416 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] contact info for Patrick Leary
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:41 AM Subject: [WISPA] contact info for Patrick Leary Anyone have Patrick's contact info. I need to talk with him ASAP. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com Free World Dialup #481416 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Indeed and this seems to be what is happening with my RadioWave antennas. I did ask about this prior to purchasing the antennas and was assured by the vendor that there was isolation between the ports. Testing suggests otherwise. Has anyone else used dual-polarized RadioWaves in this way? If the antennas do have bonded circuitry for the different polarities and I use both polarities for the same signal what am I likely to see improved? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: 17 January 2006 15:19 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna On a side note, for general info, not necessarilly applicable to the task in question Just because an antenna is Dual polarity, does not mean that both polarities can be used at the same time by seperate signals. The wiring/circuitry (what ever its called for an antenna) may be shared by the two pols, and bonded togeather in some way. The DUAL Polarity antenna has to be designed with two completely unique circuits to the antenna from the N connector, for both pols to be used at the same time. Secondly, Any two antenna elements near each other can work togeather two create the antenna beam. Just like an Omni or Panel antenna that is really just several antenna elements place appropriately to work togeather to increase gain and reduce beamwidth. Its very common to use both polarities at the same time for the same signal, but a much different matter two have two seperate signals and not have them interfere. Polarity isolation is often not enough when smack dab right next to each other. In theory 90 degrees off polarity equals 100% isolation, but in the real world its closer to 15-20 DB, but is that considering between the antennas elements right there, or signal comming from the enviroment getting shielded out? Who knows. Its very possible that 5.2 and 5.8 may not be far enough apart from each other to colocate on the same antenna, however I don't know that for a fact (harmonics and stuff like that). However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna. The point I'm making is not what can and cant be done, just that not all antennas Dual Pol antennas are designed the same, and what you can pull off on one, may not be able to be pulled off on another type. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:23 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, are you saying that you are running 2 simultaneous links through 2 separate StarOS powered WRAP/CM9 on a single dual-polarized antenna with no other hardware? I have tried this on 2 separate links running horizontal at 5.8 and vertical at 5.2 but still cannot download through one link without impacting the other. What am I doing wrong? The radios are connected to the antennas via very short pigtails and about 2 feet of LMR-400. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 16 January 2006 15:18 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Why would you use an isolator If we are talking possible adjacent channel interference then an isolator is not the cure, aditional filtering would be. But most equipment should be able to work in this environment without it. I have sites that have 4 WRAP boards with CM9's sitting right next to each other on the next adjacent channel with no issues. In addition, the loss of power is not acceptable (though it wouldn't be half power at 5GHz.). -B- Richard Goodin wrote: Go to some of the hard core LMR delers and ask for isolators, (They will cut your power in half). Your LMR dealer will need to know power, frequency, type of connectors. This may work, I do not know. - Original Message - *From:* Paul Hendry mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2006 5:14 AM *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can see that would help are band pass filters. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas. Not 2 radios on one antenna -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
I'm not saying there isn;t a benefit now and then sharing a Dual pol antenna between two freqs, otherwise nobody would make them. BUt We have found most tower agreements also, have restrictions in the agreement that disallow using multiple radios our spectrum ranges on the antennas without paying for that as a second antenna, even though taking up only one antenna position. We found that its just as easy to sneak/put up a second antenna, without managers knowledge as it is to put up a dual freq antenna without them knowing. So normally you gotta pay regardless, if you do it honestly. It becomes an issue of wether you are honest about what you put up, versus sneaking up extra options without paying. Wether its spectrum or antennas is irrelevant. Most tower owners don't audit their sides regularly because its jsut to expensive and even if they do, the auditors often are over worked, and don't always check thouroughly what they are required to supposed to check. Most colocators also aren't short on antenna space, so they are really charging you based on the value you are receiving being there, not really the actually antenna space. Although special cases do apply such as with windload requirement of over weighted towers or towers like clock tower that have a limited number of window openings for the antennas. I also find saving money isn't that much of a savings because the antenna makers then also charge more for the dual pol antennas to counter most of your planned savings. However, saving on time, clearly is an option, with only one antenna to carry and bolt up. However you may run into issues, where the alignment of the antennas may need to be varied to get optimal signal based on wether you are aligning for 5.8 or 2.4. So because we like to engineer for OPTIMAL signal, apposed to compromised mostly best signal, we prefer to use seperate antennas. As a disclaimer: We pay for all our colocated antennas at our cell sites, and we do that because we honor our tower relationships, and have negotiated good terms, and do not want to abuse the trust they have in us, so we maintain good relations. I mention sneaking up antennas only because, every once in a while, we may have sneaked up an antenna to do the inital testing (which often requires it left there for a few days), so that we can avoid the lengthly antenna request process and timely paper work until after we are certain that the link is doable and tested. We justify sneaking the antenna up, because not only are we saving us time, we also are saving the management a lot of time, preventing the need to do paperwork unnecessarilly, if we are unsuccessful in pulling off the link we engineered. I do not advise attempting to pull one over on Management companies. If the Management company does not care what spectrum gets used, and charging just for the antenna space, the more power to you for being smarter. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower space and simplify some installations. Thanks, Chadd -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna . However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Hi Tom, Our tower rentals are all based on wind-loading so a dual-pol antenna costs the same as a single pol. What are the advantages of using both polarities for the same signal in a good LOS environment? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: 17 January 2006 18:08 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I'm not saying there isn;t a benefit now and then sharing a Dual pol antenna between two freqs, otherwise nobody would make them. BUt We have found most tower agreements also, have restrictions in the agreement that disallow using multiple radios our spectrum ranges on the antennas without paying for that as a second antenna, even though taking up only one antenna position. We found that its just as easy to sneak/put up a second antenna, without managers knowledge as it is to put up a dual freq antenna without them knowing. So normally you gotta pay regardless, if you do it honestly. It becomes an issue of wether you are honest about what you put up, versus sneaking up extra options without paying. Wether its spectrum or antennas is irrelevant. Most tower owners don't audit their sides regularly because its jsut to expensive and even if they do, the auditors often are over worked, and don't always check thouroughly what they are required to supposed to check. Most colocators also aren't short on antenna space, so they are really charging you based on the value you are receiving being there, not really the actually antenna space. Although special cases do apply such as with windload requirement of over weighted towers or towers like clock tower that have a limited number of window openings for the antennas. I also find saving money isn't that much of a savings because the antenna makers then also charge more for the dual pol antennas to counter most of your planned savings. However, saving on time, clearly is an option, with only one antenna to carry and bolt up. However you may run into issues, where the alignment of the antennas may need to be varied to get optimal signal based on wether you are aligning for 5.8 or 2.4. So because we like to engineer for OPTIMAL signal, apposed to compromised mostly best signal, we prefer to use seperate antennas. As a disclaimer: We pay for all our colocated antennas at our cell sites, and we do that because we honor our tower relationships, and have negotiated good terms, and do not want to abuse the trust they have in us, so we maintain good relations. I mention sneaking up antennas only because, every once in a while, we may have sneaked up an antenna to do the inital testing (which often requires it left there for a few days), so that we can avoid the lengthly antenna request process and timely paper work until after we are certain that the link is doable and tested. We justify sneaking the antenna up, because not only are we saving us time, we also are saving the management a lot of time, preventing the need to do paperwork unnecessarilly, if we are unsuccessful in pulling off the link we engineered. I do not advise attempting to pull one over on Management companies. If the Management company does not care what spectrum gets used, and charging just for the antenna space, the more power to you for being smarter. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower space and simplify some installations. Thanks, Chadd -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna . However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Bob, Item 4 is what I am talking about. If your radios have very good adjacent channel rejection, are not transmitting at high levels, and the antenna has minimized any of the coupling I mentioned, then they may be able to listen through the noise from the other transmitter. A lot of this depends on output power; it is possible to just totally swamp one receiver with another transmitter and create a noise floor too high to listen through. In my last post I was thinking like a HAM operator (theory-wise) that deals with much greater power levels. With 802.11 power levels, it may work better. It has to be designed right, like you said. No one should think that you can just hang a dual pol and do anything with it. Jason Wallace Bob Moldashel wrote: Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate simultaneous links running through these parabolics? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't the dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and the RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is being caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as the radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really stuck with this. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate simultaneous links running through these parabolics? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Hi Paul, I haven't been paying attention to this thread close enough to know your exact situation, but it is worth noting that there are always extrra headaches to deal with when trying to jerry-rig consumer grade hardware Remember the days of KarlNet ORiNOCO?? Back in those days, when using an AP-1000 per say, it was necessary to clip the built-in dipoles on a PCMCIA card in order to stem rf bleed Thank goodness for Canopy / Trango / whatever =) -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:59 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't the dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and the RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is being caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as the radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really stuck with this. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate simultaneous links running through these parabolics? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Charles I hope we don't get kicked off this list for talking about canopy. :) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:14 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Hi Paul, I haven't been paying attention to this thread close enough to know your exact situation, but it is worth noting that there are always extrra headaches to deal with when trying to jerry-rig consumer grade hardware Remember the days of KarlNet ORiNOCO?? Back in those days, when using an AP-1000 per say, it was necessary to clip the built-in dipoles on a PCMCIA card in order to stem rf bleed Thank goodness for Canopy / Trango / whatever =) -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:59 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't the dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and the RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is being caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as the radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really stuck with this. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate simultaneous links running through these parabolics? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Nah, we aren't selling anything, just keep it civil. You guys could pay your dues though, that would help the effort! ;) When is the last time you guys heard from the moderator? Good job! Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Office 260-307-4000 Cell 260-918-4340 VoIP www.oibw.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:09 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Charles I hope we don't get kicked off this list for talking about canopy. :) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:14 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Hi Paul, I haven't been paying attention to this thread close enough to know your exact situation, but it is worth noting that there are always extrra headaches to deal with when trying to jerry-rig consumer grade hardware Remember the days of KarlNet ORiNOCO?? Back in those days, when using an AP-1000 per say, it was necessary to clip the built-in dipoles on a PCMCIA card in order to stem rf bleed Thank goodness for Canopy / Trango / whatever =) -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:59 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't the dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and the RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is being caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as the radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really stuck with this. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate simultaneous links running through these parabolics? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
[WISPA] looking for trango 900 sm
anybody got a couple for sale? Used is fine. -- Brian Rohrbacher Reliable Internet, LLC www.reliableinter.net Cell 269-838-8338 Caught up in the Air 1 Thess. 4:17 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Charles, What equipment did you use to build up your WISP? Also what did you start with and what did you end up with? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:55 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Hi, I would recommend that you do some research on the terms dynamic range and front-end compression as it relates to your particular hardware / radio platform. Understanding those terms / concepts will give you the understanding you need to make your homebrew system work Otherwise, if you want to just plug and pray your network -- you're better off probably just buying quality name brand products that have enough built-in safeties to let one just mindlessly deploy -Charles P.S. -- although I happen to have an understanding of Rf theory, HAM stuff, and Radio engineering, when I ran my WISP, I found that in the long run, it made better business sense to subscribe to a lazy WISP plug-and-pray mentality due to the fact that I liked knowing that I could focus my core efforts on sales, marketing and customer service. From a deployment side, I could just put some stuff up and have the ability to blame all my system mishaps on my friendly manufacturer / vendor =) --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 1/14/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Mmm let me guess, he started with wavelan or probably lucent Orinoco ended up with Trango and / or Canopy before he sold out... for Millions! I started with Raylink... ended up with Canopy Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:12 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Charles, What equipment did you use to build up your WISP? Also what did you start with and what did you end up with? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:55 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Hi, I would recommend that you do some research on the terms dynamic range and front-end compression as it relates to your particular hardware / radio platform. Understanding those terms / concepts will give you the understanding you need to make your homebrew system work Otherwise, if you want to just plug and pray your network -- you're better off probably just buying quality name brand products that have enough built-in safeties to let one just mindlessly deploy -Charles P.S. -- although I happen to have an understanding of Rf theory, HAM stuff, and Radio engineering, when I ran my WISP, I found that in the long run, it made better business sense to subscribe to a lazy WISP plug-and-pray mentality due to the fact that I liked knowing that I could focus my core efforts on sales, marketing and customer service. From a deployment side, I could just put some stuff up and have the ability to blame all my system mishaps on my friendly manufacturer / vendor =) --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 1/14/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
