Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Matt Larsen - Lists

Geez Patrick, go to bed!!! Get some rest

Seriously, this is a great list. Definitely shows how the VL is a 
completely different animal than the other options out there.


Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Patrick Leary wrote:


I believe most if not all of the below are features not found among 
Trango or Canopy. I list a few of the advanced features. A few of 
these (probably some you have never heard of before or even thought 
of) I show in detail. Maybe this post will also explain why the VL is 
not simply an Atheros chipset in a case and why it is not simply some 
basic CSMA/CA. This is just a small sampling. The manual, with lots of 
tables, drawings, etc., is 277 pages of which most relate to things 
that can be configured/optimized. (I can send the pdf to any who want 
it.)


· Chassis-based or stand alone AUs with multiple LEDs on the chassi 
blade versions, including current consumption


· Redundant power supplies with status LEDs, including over 
temperature warning


· GPS-sync module (for hoppers) also can be used for VL for their 
alarm capabilities


· 110vAC or -48vDC power options

· Built-in Ethernet repeater in the chassis blades to support over 600 
feet from network switch/router to ODUs


· AUs with antenna options, including built-in 60, 90, or 120 degree 
sectors plus options with external connector


· OFDM (with FEQ) for NLOS ability to enable connection of more of the 
potential subscriber population


· Adaptive modulation with configurable minimum modulation

· Up to 40Mbps net (ftp) per sector

· Over 40,000pps with small packets

· No loss in capacity with varying frame size (all other UL gear 
capacity is dramatically reduced when passing small packets


· FIPS 197 option. AES standard, no extra charge

· Virtual LANs based on IEEE 802.1Q with standard QinQ built-in support

· Layer-2 traffic prioritization based on IEEE 802.1p and layer-3 
traffic prioritization based on either IP ToS Precedence (RFC791) or 
DSCP (RFC2474). It also supports traffic prioritization based on UDP 
and/or TCP port ranges. In addition, it may use the optional Wireless 
Link Prioritization (WLP) feature to fully support delay sensitive 
applications, enabling Multimedia Application Prioritization (MAP) for 
high performance voice and video. (MAP can increase VoIP capacity by 
as much as 500%)


· Built-in surge suppression in both ODU and IDU

· Full management of all components, from any point in the system.

· Components can be managed using standard management tools through 
SNMP agents that implement standard and proprietary MIBs for remote 
setting of operational modes and parameters. Security features 
incorporated in BreezeACCESS VL units restrict access for management 
purposes to specific IP addresses and/or directions, that is, from the 
Ethernet and/or wireless link.


· True toll quality VoIP (MOS of 4.1 or better)

· Upload new or updated configuration file to multiple (selectable) 
units simultaneously, thus radically reducing the time spent on unit 
configuration maintenance.


· Back up/shadow flash, can support two different versions of firmware

· 5MHz (4.9GHz version), 10MHz, or 20MHz channel options.

· SUs autorecognize and configure channel size

· SUs available with external connector or integrated 21dBi with 
10.5h/10.5v beamwidth


· Multilevel password, multi-layer ESSIDs

· Configuration of remote access direction (from Ethernet only, from 
wireless link only or from both)


· Configuration of IP addresses of authorized stations

· Numerous LEDs detailing advanced status information, plus tri-color 
10-bar alignment LEDs that directly corresponds to SNR, including 
amber for warning signal is too strong (SNR 50dB)


· Pole mount or band strap mounting options, hardware included

· Power supply included, with reset feature and integrated surge 
suppression


· Specialty Cat 5 connector

· Industrial grade waterproof seal with O rings

· Auto or configurable maximum cell distance

· Automatic distance learning. Per SU Distance Learning mechanism 
controlled by the AU enables each SU to adapt its Acknowledge timeout 
to its actual distance from the AU, minimizing delays in the wireless 
link


· Low Priority Traffic Minimum Percent feature ensures a selectable 
certain amount of the traffic is reserved to low priority packets to 
prevent starvation of low priority traffic when there is a high demand 
for high priority traffic.


· MAC address deny and allow list

· Able to configure size of concatenated frames (enables 
customization/optimization based on expected applications)


· Best AU and preferred AU options in the SUs. (Best AU explanation: 
each of the AUs can be given a quality mark based on the level at 
which it is received by the SU. The SU scans for a configured number 
of cycles, gathering information from all the AUs with which it can 
communicate. At the end of the scanning period, the SU reaches a Best 
AU decision according to the information 

Re: [WISPA] ARIN IP Application

2006-09-24 Thread David E. Smith

Carl A Jeptha wrote:
My upstream is trying to obtain a set of ip numbers to use between 
ourselves, but ARIN is rejecting the application because they feel that 
we do not require or have use for our own ip numbers.


If you're trying to get the IPs for your network, you should probably 
apply directly to ARIN, unless you're a very small network indeed.


How much IP space are you using now? And are you single-homed or multihomed?

David Smith
MVN.net
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RE: [WISPA] RB153

2006-09-24 Thread JNA
I see that now. I was then looking at the 532 but the spec sheet on the web
does not list power consumption limits? Does anyone know if a RB532 and
daughter card can handle 3 SR9's? Or a single RB 532 with 2 SR9's? I need to
sectorize a pop with 3 120 sectors each into a SR9 and I want to stay as
compact as possible.

Thanks,
John Buwa
Michiana Wireless


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 7:56 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB153
 
 Onboard PSU is 10W max like the RB112.  Board draws 3-4W that leaves 6-7W.
 It shuld only be able to handle 1 SR9!
 
 - Original Message -
 From: JNA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:00 AM
 Subject: [WISPA] RB153
 
 
  Does anyone know if the RB153 will handle 3 SR9 cards both physical form
  factor and power consumption?
 
  Thanks,
  John Buwa
  Michiana Wireless
 
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Re: [WISPA] ARIN IP Application

2006-09-24 Thread Carl A Jeptha

We ourselves, right now need 32. And no, we are not multi-homed.

You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
Office Phone: 905 349-2084
Office Hours: 9:00am - 5:00pm
skype cajeptha



David E. Smith wrote:

Carl A Jeptha wrote:
My upstream is trying to obtain a set of ip numbers to use between 
ourselves, but ARIN is rejecting the application because they feel 
that we do not require or have use for our own ip numbers.


If you're trying to get the IPs for your network, you should probably 
apply directly to ARIN, unless you're a very small network indeed.


How much IP space are you using now? And are you single-homed or 
multihomed?


David Smith
MVN.net

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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Brad Belton
No, no...stay up!  grin

Good to see Patrick decided to engage the pros and cons of the VL product!
Now maybe we can get some traction on offering up the improvements the VL
product sorely needs.  Surely Alvarion wants to improve the product right?

The pros Patrick lists are certainly impressive, but all the wizardry in the
world won't do you much good if the radio lacks fundamental RF abilities to
block or avoid noise.  Additionally many features Patrick lists below are
found in other products albeit called something else.


What can be improved?  That's what we're here for...to offer suggestions to
IMPROVE a product, right?

(1)  Dual polarity AU and SU via software control

(2)  RSSI reading

(3)  Quicker reboots and fewer of them for basic changes ipconfig etc.

(4)  Adhere to standard 568A or 568B CAT5 color code

(5)  Add Rx threshold to enable radio to maintain higher modulations in
noisy environments

(6)  Increase size of weather seal opening to allow RJ45 connector to pass
through


I should mention many of these points have been long standing requests from
long time VL clients.  Patrick himself gave me a number of VL customers to
contact as references and these points were brought up by them as well as
me.  Even Keith Edmonds a tech who works for Alvarion agreed there should be
a RSSI reading (not just a SNR reading) and dual polarity would be
beneficial.

Additionally all of the references Patrick provided were not selling
committed rate business packages, but rather up to or best effort
packages.  This is important to note as the VL will auto-rate itself down to
a low modulation and slower speed in noisy environments.  This is not a good
feature if you are offering committed bandwidth packages and not best effort
packages.

Best,

Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 1:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

Geez Patrick, go to bed!!! Get some rest

Seriously, this is a great list. Definitely shows how the VL is a 
completely different animal than the other options out there.

Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Patrick Leary wrote:

 I believe most if not all of the below are features not found among 
 Trango or Canopy. I list a few of the advanced features. A few of 
 these (probably some you have never heard of before or even thought 
 of) I show in detail. Maybe this post will also explain why the VL is 
 not simply an Atheros chipset in a case and why it is not simply some 
 basic CSMA/CA. This is just a small sampling. The manual, with lots of 
 tables, drawings, etc., is 277 pages of which most relate to things 
 that can be configured/optimized. (I can send the pdf to any who want 
 it.)

 . Chassis-based or stand alone AUs with multiple LEDs on the chassi 
 blade versions, including current consumption

 . Redundant power supplies with status LEDs, including over 
 temperature warning

 . GPS-sync module (for hoppers) also can be used for VL for their 
 alarm capabilities

 . 110vAC or -48vDC power options

 . Built-in Ethernet repeater in the chassis blades to support over 600 
 feet from network switch/router to ODUs

 . AUs with antenna options, including built-in 60, 90, or 120 degree 
 sectors plus options with external connector

 . OFDM (with FEQ) for NLOS ability to enable connection of more of the 
 potential subscriber population

 . Adaptive modulation with configurable minimum modulation

 . Up to 40Mbps net (ftp) per sector

 . Over 40,000pps with small packets

 . No loss in capacity with varying frame size (all other UL gear 
 capacity is dramatically reduced when passing small packets

 . FIPS 197 option. AES standard, no extra charge

 . Virtual LANs based on IEEE 802.1Q with standard QinQ built-in support

 . Layer-2 traffic prioritization based on IEEE 802.1p and layer-3 
 traffic prioritization based on either IP ToS Precedence (RFC791) or 
 DSCP (RFC2474). It also supports traffic prioritization based on UDP 
 and/or TCP port ranges. In addition, it may use the optional Wireless 
 Link Prioritization (WLP) feature to fully support delay sensitive 
 applications, enabling Multimedia Application Prioritization (MAP) for 
 high performance voice and video. (MAP can increase VoIP capacity by 
 as much as 500%)

 . Built-in surge suppression in both ODU and IDU

 . Full management of all components, from any point in the system.

 . Components can be managed using standard management tools through 
 SNMP agents that implement standard and proprietary MIBs for remote 
 setting of operational modes and parameters. Security features 
 incorporated in BreezeACCESS VL units restrict access for management 
 purposes to specific IP addresses and/or directions, that is, from the 
 Ethernet and/or wireless link.

 . True toll quality VoIP (MOS of 4.1 or better)

 . Upload new or updated configuration file to multiple (selectable) 
 units 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary
Brad,

Software controlled dual polarity might be nice. Not sure why you
consistently harp on us though since no one else has it either other
than your longtime preferred vendor.

I am not as convinced about your complaint about RSSI. Is it just used
to RSSI like being used to feet in stead of meters. But also, isn't RSSI
less sophisticated and a less useful number than SNR since it is only an
indication of receive signal without discounting noise? SNR provides a
more accurate representation of wanted signal since it discounts for
unwanted noise.

Not sure of your complaint about the RJ45. No one else remarks about it
and we don't have issues with water intrusion. In other words, it works
well. If the opening was enlarged you increase the potential for water
intrusion.

Following the color code? Yes, as an old cabling guy, I would agree. But
I am pleased to note that one is really running out of things to harp
about when one continually highlights this a major deficiency.

So now that I have responded here to your public mail, will you please
admit that even if the VL came to life and saved your kid from a flood
you complain that it was not fast enough and that it ripped the kid's
clothes. I wish some day you'd accept that your customer chose VL and
you should take the opportunity to learn about it instead of still
trying to make it fail so you can get them to switch to Trango. Even the
best radios will have room for improvement and every decent brand should
have something special that differentiates it. You work so hard to find
fault you miss opportunities to become proficient in more than one
brand. So accept our invitations to allow engineer visits and accept our
invitations to be trained. Know what I mean?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243







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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread G. villarini
Patrick,

Rssi is very important to determine if a link is properly aligned and its 
achieving its link budget.

Altough we don’t use alvarion(yet), we are currently researching backhaul 
options and the way we comission ptp links here is that we run the calcs on 
radio mobile and spreedsheet to determine the link budget in advance to 
implementation.  Snr won’t help much there...

Gino

-Original Message-
From: Patrick Leary[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 9/24/06 11:32:47 AM
To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
  Brad,

Software controlled dual polarity might be nice. Not sure why you
consistently harp on us though since no one else has it either other
than your longtime preferred vendor.

I am not as convinced about your complaint about RSSI. Is it just used
to RSSI like being used to feet in stead of meters. But also, isn't RSSI
less sophisticated and a less useful number than SNR since it is only an
indication of receive signal without discounting noise? SNR provides a
more accurate representation of wanted signal since it discounts for
unwanted noise.

Not sure of your complaint about the RJ45. No one else remarks about it
and we don't have issues with water intrusion. In other words, it works
well. If the opening was enlarged you increase the potential for water
intrusion.

Following the color code? Yes, as an old cabling guy, I would agree. But
I am pleased to note that one is really running out of things to harp
about when one continually highlights this a major deficiency.

So now that I have responded here to your public mail, will you please
admit that even if the VL came to life and saved your kid from a flood
you complain that it was not fast enough and that it ripped the kid's
clothes. I wish some day you'd accept that your customer chose VL and
you should take the opportunity to learn about it instead of still
trying to make it fail so you can get them to switch to Trango. Even the
best radios will have room for improvement and every decent brand should
have something special that differentiates it. You work so hard to find
fault you miss opportunities to become proficient in more than one
brand. So accept our invitations to allow engineer visits and accept our
invitations to be trained. Know what I mean?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243




 
 


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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Matt Liotta
I have yet to use an Alvarion radio or for that matter one without RSSI. 
However, I would think that using SNR is a perfectly reasonable way to 
align a link.


-Matt

G. villarini wrote:

Patrick,

Rssi is very important to determine if a link is properly aligned and its 
achieving its link budget.

Altough we don’t use alvarion(yet), we are currently researching backhaul 
options and the way we comission ptp links here is that we run the calcs on 
radio mobile and spreedsheet to determine the link budget in advance to 
implementation.  Snr won’t help much there...

Gino

-Original Message-
From: Patrick Leary[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 9/24/06 11:32:47 AM
To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs
  Brad,

Software controlled dual polarity might be nice. Not sure why you

consistently harp on us though since no one else has it either other
than your longtime preferred vendor.

I am not as convinced about your complaint about RSSI. Is it just used

to RSSI like being used to feet in stead of meters. But also, isn't RSSI
less sophisticated and a less useful number than SNR since it is only an
indication of receive signal without discounting noise? SNR provides a
more accurate representation of wanted signal since it discounts for
unwanted noise.

Not sure of your complaint about the RJ45. No one else remarks about it

and we don't have issues with water intrusion. In other words, it works
well. If the opening was enlarged you increase the potential for water
intrusion.

Following the color code? Yes, as an old cabling guy, I would agree. But

I am pleased to note that one is really running out of things to harp
about when one continually highlights this a major deficiency.

So now that I have responded here to your public mail, will you please

admit that even if the VL came to life and saved your kid from a flood
you complain that it was not fast enough and that it ripped the kid's
clothes. I wish some day you'd accept that your customer chose VL and
you should take the opportunity to learn about it instead of still
trying to make it fail so you can get them to switch to Trango. Even the
best radios will have room for improvement and every decent brand should
have something special that differentiates it. You work so hard to find
fault you miss opportunities to become proficient in more than one
brand. So accept our invitations to allow engineer visits and accept our
invitations to be trained. Know what I mean?

Patrick Leary

AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243




 
 


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Re: [WISPA] ARIN IP Application

2006-09-24 Thread David E. Smith

Carl A Jeptha wrote:

We ourselves, right now need 32. And no, we are not multi-homed.


32, as in a total of 32 IP addresses?

If that's the case, they shouldn't need to involve ARIN at all. They 
should just SWIP that little teensy allocation out of their own space to 
you.


(ARIN usually doesn't need to be involved unless you're working with at 
least a /22 allocation, which is 1024 IPs.)


David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] ARIN IP Application

2006-09-24 Thread Matt Liotta

David E. Smith wrote:
(ARIN usually doesn't need to be involved unless you're working with 
at least a /22 allocation, which is 1024 IPs.)


ARIN could be involved if you have a swiped /24 or bigger and want to 
multi-home.


-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary








I should have also noted that per the info
below, most Alvarion operators simply have a policy that they will only connect
subscribers for whom a minimum number of the green LEDs will fire and hold. For
example, having 4 for of the 8 green LEDs light should get you a link with the
best mod level, but 5 will do that plus give you a margin of about 8dB. It is a
simple thing once you get used to it, which does not take long. Remember, there
is no standard way to show these things, but Id argue that what we show
is more complete and real in terms of link quality. Just showing RSSI would
dump it down, wouldnt it?





Patrick Leary 
AVP WISP Markets 
Alvarion, Inc. 
o: 650.314.2628 
c: 760.580.0080 
Vonage: 650.641.1243 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006
9:24 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs





Right, but the LED bar on the CPE can be used to do that. I mean, isn't
SNR more complete than just RSSI, meaning if your SNR is good than the RSSI is
by default good. Anyway, I have never heard of any moderately experienced VL
user say the units did not convey enough info to easily establish a link and
understand the quality of the connection. Consider that with the CPE VL radio
the LEDs will show:



WLAN link light-


Solid Green  Unit is
associated with an AU, no wireless link activity


Blinking Green  Data
received or transmitted on the wireless link, blinking rate is proportional to
wireless

traffic rate


Off  Wireless link is
disabled



Status light 


Solid Green  Power is
available and self-test passed


Blinking Amber  Testing
(not ready for operation)


Red  Self-test failed
 fatal error



Ethernet light 


Solid Green  Ethernet link
between the indoor and outdoor units is detected, no activity


Blinking Green  Ethernet
connectivity is OK, with traffic on the port. Blinking rate proportional to
traffic rate


Red  No Ethernet
connectivity between the indoor and outdoor units



SNR bar 


Red LED: Signal is too low
(SNR4 dB)


Orange LED: Signal is too high
(SNR  50 dB)


8 green LEDs: Quality of the
received signal (green LEDs translate per below)

LED 1 (red) is On - Signal is too low (SNR  4 dB)

LED 2 (green) is On - SNR  4 dB

LEDs 2 to 3 (green) are On - SNR  8 dB

LEDs 2 to 4 (green) are On - SNR  13 dB

LEDs 2 to 5 (green) are On - SNR  19 dB

LEDs 2 to 6 (green) are On - SNR  26 dB

LEDs 2 to 7 (green) are On - SNR  31 dB

LEDs 2 to 8 (green) are On - SNR  38 dB

LEDs 2 to 9 (green) are On - SNR  44 dB

LEDs 2 to 9 (green) and 10 (orange) are On Signal is
too high (SNR  50 dB)



Mod level : Sensitivity : Min. SNR (this chart for
20MHz channel)

1 : -89 dBm : 6 dB

2 : -88 dBm : 7 dB

3 : -86 dBm : 9 dB

4 : -84 dBm : 11 dB

5 : -81 dBm : 14 dB

6 : -77 dBm : 18 dB

7 : -73 dBm : 22 dB

8 : -71 dBm : 23 dB





Patrick Leary

AVP WISP Markets

Alvarion, Inc.

o: 650.314.2628

c: 760.580.0080

Vonage: 650.641.1243



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of G. villarini
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:48 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs



Patrick,



Rssi is very important to determine if a link is properly aligned and
its achieving its link budget.



Altough we dont use alvarion(yet), we are currently researching
backhaul options and the way we comission ptp links here is that we run the
calcs on radio mobile and spreedsheet to determine the link budget in advance
to implementation. Snr wont help much there...



Gino



-Original Message-

 From: Patrick
Leary[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Sent: 9/24/06 11:32:47 AM

 To: WISPA General
Listwireless@wispa.org

 Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

 Brad,

 

 Software controlled dual polarity might be nice. Not
sure why you

 consistently harp on us though since no one else has
it either other

 than your longtime preferred vendor.

 

 I am not as convinced about your complaint about
RSSI. Is it just used

 to RSSI like being used to feet in stead of meters.
But also, isn't RSSI

 less sophisticated and a less useful number than SNR
since it is only an

 indication of receive signal without discounting
noise? SNR provides a

 more accurate representation of wanted signal since it
discounts for

 unwanted noise.

 

 Not sure of your complaint about the RJ45. No one
else remarks about it

 and we don't have issues with water intrusion. In
other words, it works

 well. If the opening was enlarged you increase the
potential for water

 intrusion.

 

 Following the color code? Yes, as an old cabling
guy, I would agree. But

 I am pleased to note that one is really running out
of things to harp

 about when one continually highlights this a major
deficiency.

 

 So now that I have responded here to your public
mail, will you please

 admit that even if the VL came to life and saved
your kid from a flood

 you complain that it was not fast enough and 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Gino A. Villarini








The problem with SNR for alignment
purposes is that you are dealing with a variable in noise, with rssi you work
with fixed numbers. Im not dissing SNR, it is extremely important,
But for example, in order to trouble shoot a link  let say I install a
Link and Im seeing a a SNR of 6 on this link,how the heck can I determine if
the antenna is miss aligned or the noise floor is very high ???





Gino A. Villarini 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 
tel 787.273.4143
fax 787.273.4145 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006
12:24 PM
To: WISPA
 General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs





Right, but the LED bar on the CPE can be used to do that. I mean, isn't
SNR more complete than just RSSI, meaning if your SNR is good than the RSSI is
by default good. Anyway, I have never heard of any moderately experienced VL
user say the units did not convey enough info to easily establish a link and
understand the quality of the connection. Consider that with the CPE VL radio
the LEDs will show:



WLAN link light-


Solid Green  Unit is
associated with an AU, no wireless link activity


Blinking Green  Data
received or transmitted on the wireless link, blinking rate is proportional to
wireless

traffic rate


Off  Wireless link is
disabled



Status light 


Solid Green  Power is
available and self-test passed


Blinking Amber  Testing
(not ready for operation)


Red  Self-test failed
 fatal error



Ethernet light 


Solid Green  Ethernet link
between the indoor and outdoor units is detected, no activity


Blinking Green  Ethernet
connectivity is OK, with traffic on the port. Blinking rate proportional to
traffic rate


Red  No Ethernet
connectivity between the indoor and outdoor units



SNR bar 


Red LED: Signal is too low
(SNR4 dB)


Orange LED: Signal is too high
(SNR  50 dB)


8 green LEDs: Quality of the
received signal (green LEDs translate per below)

LED 1 (red) is On - Signal is too low (SNR  4 dB)

LED 2 (green) is On - SNR  4 dB

LEDs 2 to 3 (green) are On - SNR  8 dB

LEDs 2 to 4 (green) are On - SNR  13 dB

LEDs 2 to 5 (green) are On - SNR  19 dB

LEDs 2 to 6 (green) are On - SNR  26 dB

LEDs 2 to 7 (green) are On - SNR  31 dB

LEDs 2 to 8 (green) are On - SNR  38 dB

LEDs 2 to 9 (green) are On - SNR  44 dB

LEDs 2 to 9 (green) and 10 (orange) are On Signal is
too high (SNR  50 dB)



Mod level : Sensitivity : Min. SNR (this chart for
20MHz channel)

1 : -89 dBm : 6 dB

2 : -88 dBm : 7 dB

3 : -86 dBm : 9 dB

4 : -84 dBm : 11 dB

5 : -81 dBm : 14 dB

6 : -77 dBm : 18 dB

7 : -73 dBm : 22 dB

8 : -71 dBm : 23 dB





Patrick Leary

AVP WISP Markets

Alvarion, Inc.

o: 650.314.2628

c: 760.580.0080

Vonage: 650.641.1243



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of G. villarini
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:48 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs



Patrick,



Rssi is very important to determine if a link is properly aligned and
its achieving its link budget.



Altough we dont use alvarion(yet), we are currently researching
backhaul options and the way we comission ptp links here is that we run the
calcs on radio mobile and spreedsheet to determine the link budget in advance
to implementation. Snr wont help much there...



Gino



-Original Message-

 From: Patrick
Leary[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Sent: 9/24/06 11:32:47 AM

 To: WISPA General
 Listwireless@wispa.org

 Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

 Brad,

 

 Software controlled dual polarity might be nice. Not
sure why you

 consistently harp on us though since no one else has
it either other

 than your longtime preferred vendor.

 

 I am not as convinced about your complaint about
RSSI. Is it just used

 to RSSI like being used to feet in stead of meters.
But also, isn't RSSI

 less sophisticated and a less useful number than SNR
since it is only an

 indication of receive signal without discounting noise?
SNR provides a

 more accurate representation of wanted signal since
it discounts for

 unwanted noise.

 

 Not sure of your complaint about the RJ45. No one
else remarks about it

 and we don't have issues with water intrusion. In
other words, it works

 well. If the opening was enlarged you increase the
potential for water

 intrusion.

 

 Following the color code? Yes, as an old cabling
guy, I would agree. But

 I am pleased to note that one is really running out
of things to harp

 about when one continually highlights this a major
deficiency.

 

 So now that I have responded here to your public
mail, will you please

 admit that even if the VL came to life and saved
your kid from a flood

 you complain that it was not fast enough and that it
ripped the kid's

 clothes. I wish some day you'd accept that your
customer chose VL and

 you should take the opportunity to learn about it
instead of still

 trying to make it fail so you can get them to switch

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Brad Belton








Exactly, and this is can be compounded on
a new installation as you might be seeing noise or could it be you are just misaligned?



Techs are creatures of habit. They
may think 4 LED bars is all that is ever needed because thats what they
typically see. The next install they throw up a radio and get their usual
4 LED bars and dont realize 5 or more is obtainable. Then a
rainstorm comes in along with a 20F drop in temperature and the link goes to
crap because in fact they aligned the radio on a side lobe.







Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006
11:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs



The problem with SNR for
alignment purposes is that you are dealing with a variable in noise, with rssi
you work with fixed numbers. Im not dissing SNR, it is extremely
important, But for example, in order to trouble shoot a link  let say I
install a Link and Im seeing a a SNR of 6 on this link,how the heck can I
determine if the antenna is miss aligned or the noise floor is very high ???





Gino A. Villarini 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 
tel 787.273.4143
fax 787.273.4145 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006
12:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs





Right, but the LED bar on the CPE can be used to do
that. I mean, isn't SNR more complete than just RSSI, meaning if your SNR is
good than the RSSI is by default good. Anyway, I have never heard of any
moderately experienced VL user say the units did not convey enough info to
easily establish a link and understand the quality of the connection. Consider
that with the CPE VL radio the LEDs will show:



WLAN link light-


Solid Green  Unit is associated with an AU,
no wireless link activity


Blinking Green  Data received or transmitted
on the wireless link, blinking rate is proportional to wireless

traffic rate


Off  Wireless link is disabled



Status light 


Solid Green  Power is available and
self-test passed


Blinking Amber  Testing (not ready for
operation)


Red  Self-test failed  fatal error



Ethernet light 


Solid Green  Ethernet link between the
indoor and outdoor units is detected, no activity


Blinking Green  Ethernet connectivity is OK,
with traffic on the port. Blinking rate proportional to traffic rate


Red  No Ethernet connectivity between the
indoor and outdoor units



SNR bar 


Red LED: Signal is too low (SNR4 dB)


Orange LED: Signal is too high (SNR  50 dB)


8 green LEDs: Quality of the received signal (green
LEDs translate per below)

LED 1 (red) is On - Signal is too low (SNR  4 dB)

LED 2 (green) is On - SNR  4 dB

LEDs 2 to 3 (green) are On - SNR  8 dB

LEDs 2 to 4 (green) are On - SNR  13 dB

LEDs 2 to 5 (green) are On - SNR  19 dB

LEDs 2 to 6 (green) are On - SNR  26 dB

LEDs 2 to 7 (green) are On - SNR  31 dB

LEDs 2 to 8 (green) are On - SNR  38 dB

LEDs 2 to 9 (green) are On - SNR  44 dB

LEDs 2 to 9 (green) and 10 (orange) are On Signal is
too high (SNR  50 dB)



Mod level : Sensitivity : Min. SNR (this chart for
20MHz channel)

1 : -89 dBm : 6 dB

2 : -88 dBm : 7 dB

3 : -86 dBm : 9 dB

4 : -84 dBm : 11 dB

5 : -81 dBm : 14 dB

6 : -77 dBm : 18 dB

7 : -73 dBm : 22 dB

8 : -71 dBm : 23 dB





Patrick Leary

AVP WISP Markets

Alvarion, Inc.

o: 650.314.2628

c: 760.580.0080

Vonage: 650.641.1243



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of G. villarini
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:48 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs



Patrick,



Rssi is very important to determine if a link is
properly aligned and its achieving its link budget.



Altough we dont use alvarion(yet), we are
currently researching backhaul options and the way we comission ptp links here
is that we run the calcs on radio mobile and spreedsheet to determine the link
budget in advance to implementation. Snr wont help much there...



Gino



-Original Message-

 From: Patrick
Leary[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Sent: 9/24/06 11:32:47 AM

 To: WISPA General
Listwireless@wispa.org

 Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

 Brad,

 

 Software controlled dual polarity
might be nice. Not sure why you

 consistently harp on us though
since no one else has it either other

 than your longtime preferred
vendor.

 

 I am not as convinced about your
complaint about RSSI. Is it just used

 to RSSI like being used to feet in
stead of meters. But also, isn't RSSI

 less sophisticated and a less
useful number than SNR since it is only an

 indication of receive signal
without discounting noise? SNR provides a

 more accurate representation of
wanted signal since it discounts for

 unwanted noise.

 

 Not sure of your complaint about
the RJ45. No one else remarks about it

 and we don't have issues with water
intrusion. In 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary








If the general concensus is that RSSI is a
must, then I will try to convince PM to add such a reading.





Patrick Leary 
AVP WISP Markets 
Alvarion, Inc. 
o: 650.314.2628 
c: 760.580.0080 
Vonage: 650.641.1243 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006
9:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs





The problem with SNR for alignment
purposes is that you are dealing with a variable in noise, with rssi you work
with fixed numbers. Im not dissing SNR, it is extremely important,
But for example, in order to trouble shoot a link  let say I install a
Link and Im seeing a a SNR of 6 on this link,how the heck can I determine if
the antenna is miss aligned or the noise floor is very high ???





Gino A. Villarini 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 
tel 787.273.4143
fax 787.273.4145 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006
12:24 PM
To: WISPA
 General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs





Right, but the LED bar on the CPE can be used to do that. I mean, isn't
SNR more complete than just RSSI, meaning if your SNR is good than the RSSI is
by default good. Anyway, I have never heard of any moderately experienced VL
user say the units did not convey enough info to easily establish a link and
understand the quality of the connection. Consider that with the CPE VL radio
the LEDs will show:



WLAN link light-


Solid Green  Unit is
associated with an AU, no wireless link activity


Blinking Green  Data
received or transmitted on the wireless link, blinking rate is proportional to
wireless

traffic rate


Off  Wireless link is
disabled



Status light 


Solid Green  Power is
available and self-test passed


Blinking Amber  Testing
(not ready for operation)


Red  Self-test failed
 fatal error



Ethernet light 


Solid Green  Ethernet link
between the indoor and outdoor units is detected, no activity


Blinking Green  Ethernet
connectivity is OK, with traffic on the port. Blinking rate proportional to
traffic rate


Red  No Ethernet
connectivity between the indoor and outdoor units



SNR bar 


Red LED: Signal is too low
(SNR4 dB)


Orange LED: Signal is too high
(SNR  50 dB)


8 green LEDs: Quality of the
received signal (green LEDs translate per below)

LED 1 (red) is On - Signal is too low (SNR  4 dB)

LED 2 (green) is On - SNR  4 dB

LEDs 2 to 3 (green) are On - SNR  8 dB

LEDs 2 to 4 (green) are On - SNR  13 dB

LEDs 2 to 5 (green) are On - SNR  19 dB

LEDs 2 to 6 (green) are On - SNR  26 dB

LEDs 2 to 7 (green) are On - SNR  31 dB

LEDs 2 to 8 (green) are On - SNR  38 dB

LEDs 2 to 9 (green) are On - SNR  44 dB

LEDs 2 to 9 (green) and 10 (orange) are On Signal is
too high (SNR  50 dB)



Mod level : Sensitivity : Min. SNR (this chart for
20MHz channel)

1 : -89 dBm : 6 dB

2 : -88 dBm : 7 dB

3 : -86 dBm : 9 dB

4 : -84 dBm : 11 dB

5 : -81 dBm : 14 dB

6 : -77 dBm : 18 dB

7 : -73 dBm : 22 dB

8 : -71 dBm : 23 dB





Patrick Leary

AVP WISP Markets

Alvarion, Inc.

o: 650.314.2628

c: 760.580.0080

Vonage: 650.641.1243



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of G. villarini
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:48 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs



Patrick,



Rssi is very important to determine if a link is properly aligned and
its achieving its link budget.



Altough we dont use alvarion(yet), we are currently researching
backhaul options and the way we comission ptp links here is that we run the
calcs on radio mobile and spreedsheet to determine the link budget in advance
to implementation. Snr wont help much there...



Gino



-Original Message-

 From: Patrick
Leary[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Sent: 9/24/06 11:32:47 AM

 To: WISPA General
 Listwireless@wispa.org

 Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

 Brad,

 

 Software controlled dual polarity might be nice. Not
sure why you

 consistently harp on us though since no one else has
it either other

 than your longtime preferred vendor.

 

 I am not as convinced about your complaint about
RSSI. Is it just used

 to RSSI like being used to feet in stead of meters.
But also, isn't RSSI

 less sophisticated and a less useful number than SNR
since it is only an

 indication of receive signal without discounting
noise? SNR provides a

 more accurate representation of wanted signal since
it discounts for

 unwanted noise.

 

 Not sure of your complaint about the RJ45. No one
else remarks about it

 and we don't have issues with water intrusion. In
other words, it works

 well. If the opening was enlarged you increase the
potential for water

 intrusion.

 

 Following the color code? Yes, as an old cabling
guy, I would agree. But

 I am pleased to note that one is really running out
of things to harp

 about when one continually highlights this a major
deficiency.

 

 

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread John Scrivner
Not to beat the horse here but I think having SNR, RSSI and Noise 
readings are all things people should have in an advanced platform. 
Granted if you have any two you can get the third but just having it all 
right there seems logical to me. I am guessing the system could easily 
derive all three as it has to know the RSSI and Noise level to get SNR 
to begin with. A person should use all three when peaking a link to see 
where potential noise sources are located, how much signal you can max 
out at and where the best SNR is. The only time more information is not 
better is when you have an installer who does not comprehend the 
differences in all three readings and could become confused. I would not 
want that guy dong my VL links to begin with though.


I do understand the differences and inter-relationships between SNR, 
RSSI and Noise level and I would like to see all three when I set a 
link. I am guessing this would take the Alvarion firmware writers about 
2 minutes to add that into the next firmware revision. I am not 
exaggerating here. I am sure the code to do this is already there to 
produce the SNR number and a checkbox in the build options will add RSSI 
and Noise levels to the next revision. I tell you what Patrick, if your 
firmware designers say it will take more than 15 minutes to add that 
code then I owe you dinner at ISPCON one night. Deal?

Scriv


Patrick Leary wrote:

If the general concensus is that RSSI is a must, then I will try to 
convince PM to add such a reading.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243



*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
*On Behalf Of *Gino A. Villarini

*Sent:* Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:48 AM
*To:* 'WISPA General List'
*Subject:* RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

The problem with SNR for alignment purposes is that you are dealing 
with a variable in noise, with rssi you work with fixed numbers. I’m 
not dissing SNR, it is extremely important, But for example, in order 
to trouble shoot a link … let say I install a Link and Im seeing a a 
SNR of 6 on this link,how the heck can I determine if the antenna is 
miss aligned or the noise floor is very high ???


Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145



*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
*On Behalf Of *Patrick Leary

*Sent:* Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:24 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Right, but the LED bar on the CPE can be used to do that. I mean, 
isn't SNR more complete than just RSSI, meaning if your SNR is good 
than the RSSI is by default good. Anyway, I have never heard of any 
moderately experienced VL user say the units did not convey enough 
info to easily establish a link and understand the quality of the 
connection. Consider that with the CPE VL radio the LEDs will show:


WLAN link light-

· Solid Green – Unit is associated with an AU, no wireless link activity

· Blinking Green – Data received or transmitted on the wireless link, 
blinking rate is proportional to wireless


traffic rate

· Off – Wireless link is disabled

Status light –

· Solid Green – Power is available and self-test passed

· Blinking Amber – Testing (not ready for operation)

· Red – Self-test failed – fatal error

Ethernet light –

· Solid Green – Ethernet link between the indoor and outdoor units is 
detected, no activity


· Blinking Green – Ethernet connectivity is OK, with traffic on the 
port. Blinking rate proportional to traffic rate


· Red – No Ethernet connectivity between the indoor and outdoor units

SNR bar –

· Red LED: Signal is too low (SNR4 dB)

· Orange LED: Signal is too high (SNR  50 dB)

· 8 green LEDs: Quality of the received signal (green LEDs translate 
per below)


LED 1 (red) is On - Signal is too low (SNR  4 dB)

LED 2 (green) is On - SNR  4 dB

LEDs 2 to 3 (green) are On - SNR  8 dB

LEDs 2 to 4 (green) are On - SNR  13 dB

LEDs 2 to 5 (green) are On - SNR  19 dB

LEDs 2 to 6 (green) are On - SNR  26 dB

LEDs 2 to 7 (green) are On - SNR  31 dB

LEDs 2 to 8 (green) are On - SNR  38 dB

LEDs 2 to 9 (green) are On - SNR  44 dB

LEDs 2 to 9 (green) and 10 (orange) are On Signal is too high (SNR  
50 dB)


Mod level : Sensitivity : Min. SNR (this chart for 20MHz channel)

1 : -89 dBm : 6 dB

2 : -88 dBm : 7 dB

3 : -86 dBm : 9 dB

4 : -84 dBm : 11 dB

5 : -81 dBm : 14 dB

6 : -77 dBm : 18 dB

7 : -73 dBm : 22 dB

8 : -71 dBm : 23 dB

Patrick Leary

AVP WISP Markets

Alvarion, Inc.

o: 650.314.2628

c: 760.580.0080

Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of G. villarini

Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:48 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Patrick,

Rssi is very important 

[WISPA] Anyone know where to get these???

2006-09-24 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
http://www.wneweb.com/wireless/wireless_mini-pci.htm

I'm interested in the DCMA-82

The MIMO stuff looks interesting too... but I dunno what you gotta do for an
antenna array...



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

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WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary
Deal. For sure I will ask them to add the reading in the firmware.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 11:14 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

Not to beat the horse here but I think having SNR, RSSI and Noise 
readings are all things people should have in an advanced platform. 
Granted if you have any two you can get the third but just having it all

right there seems logical to me. I am guessing the system could easily 
derive all three as it has to know the RSSI and Noise level to get SNR 
to begin with. A person should use all three when peaking a link to see 
where potential noise sources are located, how much signal you can max 
out at and where the best SNR is. The only time more information is not 
better is when you have an installer who does not comprehend the 
differences in all three readings and could become confused. I would not

want that guy dong my VL links to begin with though.

I do understand the differences and inter-relationships between SNR, 
RSSI and Noise level and I would like to see all three when I set a 
link. I am guessing this would take the Alvarion firmware writers about 
2 minutes to add that into the next firmware revision. I am not 
exaggerating here. I am sure the code to do this is already there to 
produce the SNR number and a checkbox in the build options will add RSSI

and Noise levels to the next revision. I tell you what Patrick, if your 
firmware designers say it will take more than 15 minutes to add that 
code then I owe you dinner at ISPCON one night. Deal?
Scriv


Patrick Leary wrote:

 If the general concensus is that RSSI is a must, then I will try to 
 convince PM to add such a reading.

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243




 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 *On Behalf Of *Gino A. Villarini
 *Sent:* Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:48 AM
 *To:* 'WISPA General List'
 *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

 The problem with SNR for alignment purposes is that you are dealing 
 with a variable in noise, with rssi you work with fixed numbers. I'm 
 not dissing SNR, it is extremely important, But for example, in order 
 to trouble shoot a link ... let say I install a Link and Im seeing a a

 SNR of 6 on this link,how the heck can I determine if the antenna is 
 miss aligned or the noise floor is very high ???

 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145




 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 *On Behalf Of *Patrick Leary
 *Sent:* Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:24 PM
 *To:* WISPA General List
 *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

 Right, but the LED bar on the CPE can be used to do that. I mean, 
 isn't SNR more complete than just RSSI, meaning if your SNR is good 
 than the RSSI is by default good. Anyway, I have never heard of any 
 moderately experienced VL user say the units did not convey enough 
 info to easily establish a link and understand the quality of the 
 connection. Consider that with the CPE VL radio the LEDs will show:

 WLAN link light-

 * Solid Green - Unit is associated with an AU, no wireless link
activity

 * Blinking Green - Data received or transmitted on the wireless link, 
 blinking rate is proportional to wireless

 traffic rate

 * Off - Wireless link is disabled

 Status light -

 * Solid Green - Power is available and self-test passed

 * Blinking Amber - Testing (not ready for operation)

 * Red - Self-test failed - fatal error

 Ethernet light -

 * Solid Green - Ethernet link between the indoor and outdoor units is 
 detected, no activity

 * Blinking Green - Ethernet connectivity is OK, with traffic on the 
 port. Blinking rate proportional to traffic rate

 * Red - No Ethernet connectivity between the indoor and outdoor units

 SNR bar -

 * Red LED: Signal is too low (SNR4 dB)

 * Orange LED: Signal is too high (SNR  50 dB)

 * 8 green LEDs: Quality of the received signal (green LEDs translate 
 per below)

 LED 1 (red) is On - Signal is too low (SNR  4 dB)

 LED 2 (green) is On - SNR  4 dB

 LEDs 2 to 3 (green) are On - SNR  8 dB

 LEDs 2 to 4 (green) are On - SNR  13 dB

 LEDs 2 to 5 (green) are On - SNR  19 dB

 LEDs 2 to 6 (green) are On - SNR  26 dB

 LEDs 2 to 7 (green) are On - SNR  31 dB

 LEDs 2 to 8 (green) are On - SNR  38 dB

 LEDs 2 to 9 (green) are On - SNR  44 dB

 LEDs 2 to 9 (green) and 10 (orange) are On Signal is too high (SNR  
 50 dB)

 Mod level : Sensitivity : Min. SNR (this chart for 20MHz channel)

 1 : -89 dBm : 6 dB

 2 : -88 dBm : 7 dB

 3 : -86 dBm : 9 dB

 4 : -84 dBm 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Brad Belton
Agreed, VL does have more niche features and some of those can be the sole
reason VL makes the cut and other products do not.  As you know VLAN support
was the key feature in this particular case, but simply placing a CPE router
on site will also fill that need.

I'm a believer in the VL product, but there are currently a few too many
basic pitfalls with the product.  If I didn't care I wouldn't be posting
about the VL.  Let's face it this is some of the best exposure a
manufacturer can ask for: users expressing improvements they would like to
see implemented.

The improvement requests here aren't without merit.  Dual polarity and dual
band capability are good ideas.  There isn't any argument against it, so why
not implement it?  I guarantee it will result in additional VL sales.

Trango has many features that VL does not currently offer in addition to the
extremely important Dual Polarity ability:

(1)  Rx Threshold to maintain full payload capacity in noisy areas
(2)  Far fewer commands that require a reboot
(3)  Much faster reboot
(4)  Dual band 5.3GHz and 5.8GHz in one product
(5)  RSSI reading local and remote side
(6)  Ability to locate noise at AU or SU without interrupting traffic

Considering Alvarion has a tech in the local area I wouldn't expect anything
less than a free visit.  Scanning the numerous emails between all of us on
this topic I'm unable to find the offer.  Could you forward me the exchange
you are referring to?

Trango offered to fly a tech out to us from across the country for free.
Free is in quotations because I don't believe anything is free...you're
paying for it somewhere in this case by purchasing product. grin

There is more, but it's Sunday and I've got yet another 4 or 5yr old
birthday party to attend!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Re dual polarity via software, I and others have always said it would be
nice. You've never heard me argue against it and you have heard me
acknowledge that this is Trango's key Trango only differentiator. But
we all understand that and have acknowledged it many times. Lots of
things are nice, some just have higher priority than others. For every 1
thing VL may not have relative to Trango, we can probably find 10 things
VL can do that Trango cannot, each of equal importance maybe to dual
polarity. The ability to do VoIP well would be such a thing. Those with
multipoint networks using Trango or Canopy are entirely stranded in
terms of being able to do VoIP to any reasonable scale. 

Come on Brad. I was personally involved in some of the threads where
I've seen my people (or me) attempt to answer every question you have
had. I know Keith's management has offered to send him out there
numerous times for free. I was pleased to be able to visit to understand
what your customer was wanting to do.
 
By the way, training does not have to be $1,000 a head, as you know. We
offer people to pay for the whole class than they can sell their own
seats for whatever they want. We actually have some customers that use
this as a profit center. Also, respectfully, isn't one's willingness to
get trained a good measure of one's seriousness? And what professional
training have you had for free that was wroth anything?

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:53 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Wow Patrick, I'm surprised of your answer.  I think I've made it
abundantly
clear over the years I'm open source when it comes to equipment and
choose
the best solution for the application at hand regardless of brand.

I've certainly been more a critique of Trango and many other products
than I
have been of Alvarion VL.  That can't be disputed.  I'm just surprised
you
have such thin skin regarding constructive criticism.

Regardless of what you believe, SNR is NOT the same thing as a RSSI
reading.
RSSI is pretty much what makes the world go 'round in the radio
industry.
Not sure why Alvarion continues to dig in their heals over such a simple
item that even your own techs agree should be provided.

Holy cow Patrick admits software DP might be nice!  This is a first
and
shows progress is achievable...baby steps Patrick, baby steps.  Now
let's
put the idea front  center with the Alvarion design team and as they
say
git 'er done!

I think you know as well as I do the size of the weather seal was an
oversight in design.  The idea that 1 or 2 mm larger in size will make
the
weather seal less effective is ridiculous.  You can do better that that.

Not sure what you mean about my customer chose VL etc, etc.  The end
user
client is ours...the last thing I want to do is have it fail.  The sale
was
for 2MB/2MB FDX and frankly the VL can't do that every day all day in

Re: [WISPA] Anyone know where to get these???

2006-09-24 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
And how about these?

http://www.zcomax.co.uk/doc/GZ-901.pdf




+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Anyone know where to get these???


 http://www.wneweb.com/wireless/wireless_mini-pci.htm

 I'm interested in the DCMA-82

 The MIMO stuff looks interesting too... but I dunno what you gotta do for
an
 antenna array...



 +++
 neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East
Washington
 email me at mark at neofast dot net
 541-969-8200
 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

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[WISPA] Aligning with the SNR meter

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary
Here is the bit from the manual about aligning the CPE using the alignment 
meter. Please let me know what is missing and why RSSI is needed in addition.

- Patrick

From section 3.2, page 49 (of 277) of the VL System Manual, July 2006

Aligning the Subscriber Unit Antenna

The SNR bar display is located on the bottom panel of the outdoor unit. The ten 
LEDs indicate the quality of the received signal. The higher the number of 
green LEDs indicating On, the higher the quality of the received signal. 

This section describes how to align the Subscriber Unit antenna using the SNR 
bar display.

NOTE
Antenna alignment using the SNR bar display is possible only after the 
Subscriber Unit is associated with an Access Unit. The associated Access Unit 
must be operational and the basic Subscriber Unit parameters must be correctly 
configured. Otherwise, the unit will not be able to synchronize with the Access 
Unit. As the SNR measurement is performed on received frames, its results are 
meaningless unless the Subscriber Unit is associated with an Access Unit.

To align the Subscriber Unit antenna:
1 Align the antenna by pointing it in the general direction of the Base Station.
2 Verify that the power indication of the unit is On.
3 Verify that the W-LINK LED of the ODU is On, indicating that the unit is 
associated with an Access Unit. If the W-LINK LED is Off, check that the ESSID 
and Frequency parameters are correctly configured. If the SU is still not 
associated with the AU, increase the transmit power level to its maximum value. 
If the unit is still not associated with the AU, improve the quality of the 
link by changing the direction of the antenna or by placing the antenna at a 
higher or alternate location.
4 Rotate the antenna until the maximum SNR reading is achieved, where at least 
1 green LED is on. If you encounter prolonged difficulty in illuminating the 
minimum required number of green LEDs, try to improve the reception quality by 
placing the antenna at a higher point or in an alternate location.
5 Ensure that the front of the antenna is always facing the Base Station.
However, in certain conditions, such as when the line of site to the Base
Station is hampered, better reception may be achieved using a reflected signal. 
In this case, the antenna is not always directed toward the Base Station.
6 Secure the unit firmly to the pole.

NOTE
In some cases, the antenna may need to be tilted to ensure that the level at 
which the SU receives transmissions from the AU (and vice versa) is not too 
high. As a rule of thumb, if the SU is located at a distance of less than 300 
meters from the AU, it is recommended to up-tilt the antenna by approximately 
10° to 15°. To guarantee a safety margin from the saturation level (received 
signal of -40 dBm at the antenna port), the SNR should not be higher than 50 
dB. The orange LED of the SNR bar indicates that the SNR is higher than 50 dB.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243







This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals  computer 
viruses.




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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Tom DeReggi

Gino,

The prices you state seem way low.  I've only see nthat on temporar or Ebay 
type buying.

Is their a CONSISTENT source for $225 and $550 pricing in less than 25 qty?

I believe that anyone that is required to buy in qty higher than 25 to get 
best price is getting overly burdened and likely loosing their savings after 
looking at all cash flow costs.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs



Let me comment on this 

#Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)

is this MRSP ? you can buy this the AP for $800 +/- , Advantage for $1500

#C/I advantage
#Fixed up/down ratio

Add GPS Sync, Feature rich firmware, NMS Software, Strong support, Good
promos, Only Manufacturer to offer price conscious upgrade program, third
party products (dishes , gps syncs) ect ect ect

#$490 CPE ($737 advantage) .. yikes with CPE you have 3 options :

Canopy Lite (1mbps) $170 +/- 25 packs
Canopy (14 Mbps Burst) $225 +/-
Canopy Advantage (14 Mbps sustained ) $550 ( way over priced IMHO )



Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:31 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] vendor specs

Hi,

I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this
discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)

This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data
on any of these radios:

Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
Dual polarity
10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
Easy management (CLI and web)
$149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
C/I advantage
Fixed up/down ratio
$490 CPE ($737 advantage)

Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
36Mbps and 40,000pps
$1,000 CPE

For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over
2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked
very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater
locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs,
etc.) within 100 yards of each other.

Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of
radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is
full. We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site
survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the average
signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :(

Travis
Microserv

Jon Langeler wrote:


Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not only
extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started using
canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3
different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest
that there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a
pretty darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's
vision, it keeps getting better.

ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ is
fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also
suffer from increased latency and less throughput during those
retransmissions. Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep
customers happy. Having a low C/I means the system will be stable more
often and maintain a lower retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an option
in the 5800 model which is what you and I probably have a decent
percentage of in our Trango networks. Having a low C/I requirement
affects other things like increases the range of a product. I'm laying
out facts, you can convince yourself of whatever you want...

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Tom DeReggi wrote:


Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have
often chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a good
WISP neighbor, not because I had to.  Why fight if you can
cooperate.  On a SPEC sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I.  But
Trango's specified C/I was reported before considering ARQ. And
Trango has always underspec'd their spec sheets.  C/I is not nearly
as relevant as SNR resilience anyway. With Arq, we've easilly ran
links as low as 4 db above the average noise floor, reliably.  There
is VERY little difference between the Trango and Canopy C/I in real
world usage.  The Trango just adds more polarities as more options to
work around it, when needed.  One of the reasons we like Trango is
its resilience to noise, that gives us the abilty to fight it out and
stand our ground.  The Foxes w/ DISH, have excellent ARQ and
resilience to Noise, within their range and LOS.

When we start to have trouble with Trango, is when we start to push
the limits of the technology.  Its a LOS technology that we attempt
NLOS with. My arguement is also not that we 

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Tom DeReggi
Trango is no where near $400 for Atlas Foxes.  Trango's Atlas Fox's distance 
without dish is just about the same as the standard Canopy CPE (same DBI 
antenna).
Remember that Trango lists retail on their site to protest the WISP.  Low 
volume WISP special pricing is granted to any WISP.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Will [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the trango 
site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing for 
trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?
I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th 
largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions junk 
BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC, Stonebridge 
and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage area.  My 
PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont have any 
issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have on 900mhz is 
18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use omni's so that I 
dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are playing in the 
same sand box.

Canopy pricing:
AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15 mile 
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile 
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.


Travis Johnson wrote:

Hi,

I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this 
discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)


This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data on 
any of these radios:


Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
Dual polarity
10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
Easy management (CLI and web)
$149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
C/I advantage
Fixed up/down ratio
$490 CPE ($737 advantage)

Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
36Mbps and 40,000pps
$1,000 CPE

For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over 2,000 
are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked very 
well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater locations 
that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs, etc.) within 
100 yards of each other.


Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of radio 
choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is full. We 
attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site survey at this 
location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the average signals ranged 
from -25 to -55 at the best. :(


Travis
Microserv

Jon Langeler wrote:

Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not only 
extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started using 
canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3 
different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest that 
there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a pretty 
darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's vision, 
it keeps getting better.


ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ is 
fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also suffer 
from increased latency and less throughput during those retransmissions. 
Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep customers happy. Having a 
low C/I means the system will be stable more often and maintain a lower 
retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an option in the 5800 model which is 
what you and I probably have a decent percentage of in our Trango 
networks. Having a low C/I requirement affects other things like 
increases the range of a product. I'm laying out facts, you can convince 
yourself of whatever you want...


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Tom DeReggi wrote:

Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have 
often chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a good 
WISP neighbor, not because I had to.  Why fight if you can cooperate. 
On a SPEC sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I.  But Trango's 
specified C/I was reported before considering ARQ. And Trango has 
always underspec'd their spec sheets.  C/I is not nearly as relevant as 
SNR resilience anyway. With Arq, we've easilly ran links as low as 4 db 
above the average noise floor, reliably.  There is VERY little 
difference between the Trango and Canopy C/I in real world usage.  The 
Trango just adds more polarities as more options to work around it, 
when needed.  One of the reasons we like Trango is its resilience to 
noise, that gives us the abilty to fight it out and stand our ground. 
The Foxes w/ DISH, have 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary
There are arguments against dual band support, as we have discussed
before, though you ridicule our sincere reasoning and call it BS (which
is why I am cautious about discussing these things with you in public).

As I said to you, our RD folks tell me that RF components that span a
broad frequency range have poorer performance than those designed for
more narrow frequency ranges. I don't have a Ph.D in EE or other science
disciplines, so I'm not going to argue with them. And as I have further
explained, that poorer edge performance may or may not be worth giving
up to get the benefit of dual band. That part is an economic question,
not a technical one.

At this point, our company has made the decision that the loss in
performance is not worth the benefits. And yes, our RD DO tend to be RF
purists (another thing you ridicule). That reality has its good and bad
points.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:24 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Agreed, VL does have more niche features and some of those can be the
sole
reason VL makes the cut and other products do not.  As you know VLAN
support
was the key feature in this particular case, but simply placing a CPE
router
on site will also fill that need.

I'm a believer in the VL product, but there are currently a few too many
basic pitfalls with the product.  If I didn't care I wouldn't be posting
about the VL.  Let's face it this is some of the best exposure a
manufacturer can ask for: users expressing improvements they would like
to
see implemented.

The improvement requests here aren't without merit.  Dual polarity and
dual
band capability are good ideas.  There isn't any argument against it, so
why
not implement it?  I guarantee it will result in additional VL sales.

Trango has many features that VL does not currently offer in addition to
the
extremely important Dual Polarity ability:

(1)  Rx Threshold to maintain full payload capacity in noisy areas
(2)  Far fewer commands that require a reboot
(3)  Much faster reboot
(4)  Dual band 5.3GHz and 5.8GHz in one product
(5)  RSSI reading local and remote side
(6)  Ability to locate noise at AU or SU without interrupting traffic

Considering Alvarion has a tech in the local area I wouldn't expect
anything
less than a free visit.  Scanning the numerous emails between all of
us on
this topic I'm unable to find the offer.  Could you forward me the
exchange
you are referring to?

Trango offered to fly a tech out to us from across the country for
free.
Free is in quotations because I don't believe anything is free...you're
paying for it somewhere in this case by purchasing product. grin

There is more, but it's Sunday and I've got yet another 4 or 5yr old
birthday party to attend!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Re dual polarity via software, I and others have always said it would be
nice. You've never heard me argue against it and you have heard me
acknowledge that this is Trango's key Trango only differentiator. But
we all understand that and have acknowledged it many times. Lots of
things are nice, some just have higher priority than others. For every 1
thing VL may not have relative to Trango, we can probably find 10 things
VL can do that Trango cannot, each of equal importance maybe to dual
polarity. The ability to do VoIP well would be such a thing. Those with
multipoint networks using Trango or Canopy are entirely stranded in
terms of being able to do VoIP to any reasonable scale. 

Come on Brad. I was personally involved in some of the threads where
I've seen my people (or me) attempt to answer every question you have
had. I know Keith's management has offered to send him out there
numerous times for free. I was pleased to be able to visit to understand
what your customer was wanting to do.
 
By the way, training does not have to be $1,000 a head, as you know. We
offer people to pay for the whole class than they can sell their own
seats for whatever they want. We actually have some customers that use
this as a profit center. Also, respectfully, isn't one's willingness to
get trained a good measure of one's seriousness? And what professional
training have you had for free that was wroth anything?

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:53 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Wow Patrick, I'm surprised of your answer.  I think I've made it
abundantly
clear over the years I'm open source when it comes to equipment and
choose
the best solution for the application at 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary
So what is the onesy-twosy price of a Trango Atlas with an extended
range antenna? What is the price for a Canopy Advantage CPE with
extended range? I have plenty of data I've found, but there seems to be
some wide discrepancy here among you folks.

How about total cost for a Canopy cluster with the BAM, GPS synch, and
other little extra things you need for it to be complete?

Also, I've heard a number of you talk about availability of third party
improvements like it is a benefit of the Canopy system. Seriously, isn't
that more a reflection of the glaring gaps in Canopy that have led smart
WISP entrepreneurs to capitalize?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 1:13 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

Trango is no where near $400 for Atlas Foxes.  Trango's Atlas Fox's
distance 
without dish is just about the same as the standard Canopy CPE (same DBI

antenna).
Remember that Trango lists retail on their site to protest the WISP.
Low 
volume WISP special pricing is granted to any WISP.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Will [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


 Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the
trango 
 site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing
for 
 trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?
 I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th

 largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions
junk 
 BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC,
Stonebridge 
 and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage area.  My

 PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont have any

 issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have on 900mhz
is 
 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use omni's so that
I 
 dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are playing in
the 
 same sand box.
 Canopy pricing:
 AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
 CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15
mile 
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
 CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15
mile 
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)

 Anthony Will
 Broadband Corp.


 Travis Johnson wrote:
 Hi,

 I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this 
 discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)

 This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more
data on 
 any of these radios:

 Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
 Dual polarity
 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
 Easy management (CLI and web)
 $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

 Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
 C/I advantage
 Fixed up/down ratio
 $490 CPE ($737 advantage)

 Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
 36Mbps and 40,000pps
 $1,000 CPE

 For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over
2,000 
 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked
very 
 well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater
locations 
 that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs, etc.)
within 
 100 yards of each other.

 Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of
radio 
 choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is full.
We 
 attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site survey at
this 
 location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the average signals
ranged 
 from -25 to -55 at the best. :(

 Travis
 Microserv

 Jon Langeler wrote:

 Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not
only 
 extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started
using 
 canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3 
 different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest
that 
 there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a
pretty 
 darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's
vision, 
 it keeps getting better.

 ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ
is 
 fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also
suffer 
 from increased latency and less throughput during those
retransmissions. 
 Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep customers happy.
Having a 
 low C/I means the system will be stable more often and maintain a
lower 
 retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an option in the 5800 model which
is 
 what you and I probably have a decent percentage of in our Trango 
 networks. Having a low C/I requirement affects other things like 
 increases the range of a product. 

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Matt Liotta
A quick look at Trango's and Alvarion's data sheets seem to show that 
Alvarion has a higher receive sensitivity, which would seem to confirm 
your statement.


-Matt

Patrick Leary wrote:

There are arguments against dual band support, as we have discussed
before, though you ridicule our sincere reasoning and call it BS (which
is why I am cautious about discussing these things with you in public).

As I said to you, our RD folks tell me that RF components that span a
broad frequency range have poorer performance than those designed for
more narrow frequency ranges. I don't have a Ph.D in EE or other science
disciplines, so I'm not going to argue with them. And as I have further
explained, that poorer edge performance may or may not be worth giving
up to get the benefit of dual band. That part is an economic question,
not a technical one.

At this point, our company has made the decision that the loss in
performance is not worth the benefits. And yes, our RD DO tend to be RF
purists (another thing you ridicule). That reality has its good and bad
points.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:24 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Agreed, VL does have more niche features and some of those can be the
sole
reason VL makes the cut and other products do not.  As you know VLAN
support
was the key feature in this particular case, but simply placing a CPE
router
on site will also fill that need.

I'm a believer in the VL product, but there are currently a few too many
basic pitfalls with the product.  If I didn't care I wouldn't be posting
about the VL.  Let's face it this is some of the best exposure a
manufacturer can ask for: users expressing improvements they would like
to
see implemented.

The improvement requests here aren't without merit.  Dual polarity and
dual
band capability are good ideas.  There isn't any argument against it, so
why
not implement it?  I guarantee it will result in additional VL sales.

Trango has many features that VL does not currently offer in addition to
the
extremely important Dual Polarity ability:

(1)  Rx Threshold to maintain full payload capacity in noisy areas
(2)  Far fewer commands that require a reboot
(3)  Much faster reboot
(4)  Dual band 5.3GHz and 5.8GHz in one product
(5)  RSSI reading local and remote side
(6)  Ability to locate noise at AU or SU without interrupting traffic

Considering Alvarion has a tech in the local area I wouldn't expect
anything
less than a free visit.  Scanning the numerous emails between all of
us on
this topic I'm unable to find the offer.  Could you forward me the
exchange
you are referring to?

Trango offered to fly a tech out to us from across the country for
free.
Free is in quotations because I don't believe anything is free...you're
paying for it somewhere in this case by purchasing product. grin

There is more, but it's Sunday and I've got yet another 4 or 5yr old
birthday party to attend!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Re dual polarity via software, I and others have always said it would be
nice. You've never heard me argue against it and you have heard me
acknowledge that this is Trango's key Trango only differentiator. But
we all understand that and have acknowledged it many times. Lots of
things are nice, some just have higher priority than others. For every 1
thing VL may not have relative to Trango, we can probably find 10 things
VL can do that Trango cannot, each of equal importance maybe to dual
polarity. The ability to do VoIP well would be such a thing. Those with
multipoint networks using Trango or Canopy are entirely stranded in
terms of being able to do VoIP to any reasonable scale. 


Come on Brad. I was personally involved in some of the threads where
I've seen my people (or me) attempt to answer every question you have
had. I know Keith's management has offered to send him out there
numerous times for free. I was pleased to be able to visit to understand
what your customer was wanting to do.
 
By the way, training does not have to be $1,000 a head, as you know. We

offer people to pay for the whole class than they can sell their own
seats for whatever they want. We actually have some customers that use
this as a profit center. Also, respectfully, isn't one's willingness to
get trained a good measure of one's seriousness? And what professional
training have you had for free that was wroth anything?

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:53 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs


Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Tom DeReggi
To be fair, you shouldn't leave out OEM products from the discussion 
(Mikrotik / StarOS)
These products are actually competitors to all the lines that were listed 
herein.


I think the best decission, may be more relevant to what capacity that a 
WISP intends to need, and finance ability for the size it intends to grow.
For example, I believe having the first-in pick of a cell site, will 
guarantee better performance and reliabilty to the subscribers than the type 
of Radio that is selected.
Thats one of the reasons that we chose Trango, we were able to deploy a huge 
number of sites cost effectively and reliably with the product, with limited 
financing and capitol.


Where product justification may come in, is when a WISP scales larger. 
There is a big benefit to be able to deliver 30 mbps to a sector. The reason 
is that it allow oversubscription to high ARPU subs when doing PtMP.  I can 
sell 5 mbps speeds and oversubscribe. Thats hard to do on a 10mbps sector. 
Of course their is the arguement that there is little benefit to having a 
fast sectors with a limited speed backhaul.  But many WISPs that would 
justify Alvarion, may have fiber at their cell sites or afford Licensed 
backhaul.


The question is, will your market support the higher vision? For example, if 
we would have chosen Alvarion 5 years ago, we would have bankrupted, as 
their was not enough customer awareness to allow us to make enough sales 
quickly enough to cost justify it.  It also depends on roof right fees. When 
you are paying a premium, it helps to go after higher ARPU and VOIP services 
to help jsutify the high lease fees.  Its harder to make it work for just 
data revenue.  If you have good lease deals, this is not an issue.   So part 
of it is the ratio of antenna lease fee to the capacity of teh radio 
(capcity including amount of voice it can do).


The point I'm making is that the winner is not necessarilly based on the 
spec sheet, its based on the business plan.


I'm seeing a clear picture of when and where Alvarion would be the preferred 
choice, and I see a clear picture of when and where Trango would be the 
clear choice, but I'm having a hard time homing in on any specific case 
where Canopy would be the Clear better choice.


I beleive Canopy, is now an adequate choice for just about any of the 
markets, but where is it the best choice?  Maybe Canopy is the product that 
offers a good compromise to fit into each of the markets? Advantage offers a 
lit more speed than Trango in some areas, and a little better cost than 
Alvarion, and although not the lowest or best, it offers affordable products 
on the low end. I'm sure many Canopy users won't agree with that said 
statement. But considering price, and business plan, not just features, 
where would Canopy fit, as the best product for a specfic need?


About the only thing that I've homed in on would be, a location where 
Horizonatl noise is higher than verticle, and the provider has a large 
number of Verticle systems planned (GPS sync), and is worried about 
interfering with himself, and noise is high enough that C/I is a big 
concern, and the provider may outsource a lot of technical duties, so wants 
to control high outsourced technical costs by choosing a more consistent 
product that has less technical firmware issues?


For that reason, I may see where a large national company Canopy for their 
lower volume sites, that Alvarion was not cost justified for.


For the record, the specfic cases that I feel trango is jsutified as the 
preferred case, is all cases where Alvarion has not been cost jsutified :-)


I've really been happy with Trango in general, but the reason we are looking 
for other options is that, we are starting to saturate some 10 mbps sectors, 
doing a lots more VOIP, and need the flexibilty of external antennas, and as 
more CPEs are on a sector, its more and more important to ahve SNR radios 
for troubleshooting.  But I'd say that still, 75% of my markets are better 
positioned with Trango, and I'd not likely replace them all with Alvarion. 
I'm picking and choosing where I need it and where I don't.


I'd argue that the comparison has to be

For a starter system, Canopy or Trango?
For a higher capacity system, Alvarion or StarOS/Mikrotik?

I don't really see the point in comparing Trango to Alvarion, they are two 
totally different capacity platforms.  What needs to be decided is which 
markets would allow you to get the capacity from Alvarion. For example if 
the nise floor is to high for OFDM PtMP, Trango or Canopy may still be 
better for the market.


In then when OFDM is jsutified, do you spend the big dollars on Alvarion, or 
do you buy home brew OEM?


The question comes up, do you pay $3000/$1000 for rigid platform (alvarion), 
or $300/$300 for a flexible OEM one (StarOS/Mikrotik)?


I'd argue that Alvarion's competitor is the OEM product line.
Alvarion offers:

Legal system
Excellent Support
Right out of the box
Durabilty

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Tom DeReggi

Are you saying that Motorola holds the financing?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs


If you're serving the residential market, and price is the big concern, it's
worth noting that Canopy has a $40 / customer residential rebate program
that's been going on for almost 2 years now

It's also worth noting with Canopy that you need to add ~$10 / unit for
power supplies (they are sold separately)

Regarding pricing

snip
AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
/snip

CPE pricing (if you're focusing on residential), should be adjusted to

25 pack:
LITE: $129 NET ($149 - 40 + 10) -- (this is currently a promo that ends
December 31)
Normal: $237 NET ($267 - 40 + 10)

100 pack:
Normal: $186 NET ($216 - $40 + 10)

Additionally, there are companies out there with Motorola Approved 0%
Financing programs that will let you spread your larger pack CPE consumption
over a longer period of time and get you to the next tier bundle pack price,
so you don't tie up important your working capital in inventory / gear

-Charles

---
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Yes...I'm back

WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Anthony Will
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the trango
site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing for
trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?

I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th
largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions junk
BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC,
Stonebridge and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage
area.  My PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont
have any issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have on
900mhz is 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use omni's
so that I dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are
playing in the same sand box.

Canopy pricing:
AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)

Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.


Travis Johnson wrote:

Hi,

I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this
discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)

This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data
on any of these radios:

Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
Dual polarity
10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
Easy management (CLI and web)
$149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
C/I advantage
Fixed up/down ratio
$490 CPE ($737 advantage)

Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
36Mbps and 40,000pps
$1,000 CPE

For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over
2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has
worked very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop
repeater locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM,
WISPs, etc.) within 100 yards of each other.

Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of
radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is
full. We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site
survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the
average signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :(

Travis
Microserv

Jon Langeler wrote:


Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not
only extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started
using canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU
between 3 different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp
protest that there isn't a good product and struggle when their
actually is a pretty darn good one...and on top of that has an
upgrade path in it's vision, it keeps getting better.

ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ
is fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also
suffer from increased latency and less throughput during those
retransmissions. Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep
customers happy. Having a low C/I means the system will 

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Tom DeReggi
No it gives you 10 or 10 half duplex, which is a big difference. Symetrical 
does not necessarilly mean at the same time.


Comcast and Verizon use oversubscription the their advantage in marketing, 
we use Half Duplex.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


Advantage AP 14 Mbps will give you 7 / 7 Mbps, and thats at the same time, 
wheres with Trango you can only get 5 /5 ...


Gino

Travis Johnson wrote:


Hi,

Because you will run out of upload capacity and the sector will be 
full. We sell up to 2Mbps connections (2Mbps down and 2Mbps up)... so I 
would have to go to 50/50 split, meaning only 3.5Mbps download 
capacity... compared with 10Mbps for my Trango units.


Travis
Microserv

Gino A. Villarini wrote:


Travis,

WE provide Symetrical Business service with Canopy, why you couldn't ?

A Regular AP has 7 Mbps if you split 75/25 that translates to : 5.25 / 
1.75


Why can you sell a 512/512 over that type of AP split ?

We use Advantage and have 10/4 MBps of capacity.  My biggest Symetrical 
Plan

is 3 Mbps, any other Customer that needs 5 , 6 10 symetrical gets a
dedicated ptp link ...
Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

The biggest reason we use Trango is because we sell our wireless service 
as symmetrical. Even on the residential level, if they purchase 512k 
they get 512k down and 512k up. So, if I use Canopy, I have to do a 
50/50 split, which means even the Advantage product only provides 7Mbps 
of usable bandwidth.


I would estimate 15% of our new signups for wireless are because of the 
symmetrical speed (even though 99% of them never use it). Another 15% 
comes from offering a real static IP address.


Travis
Microserv

Matt Liotta wrote:



Gino A. Villarini wrote:



GPS sync is extra $$.




Of course you can also just string sync cables between radios for free.


True, but this is truly what makes canopy works and you have nice 3rd 
party
options like www.lastmilegear.com and www.packetflux.com for the gps 
sync

units that start @ less than $300 for a 4 port Sync unit




Thanks for the reference to third party sync devices. I am not at all 
happy with the CMM. I looked at the devices from the respective vendors 
you shared. While they do look more in line with our needs than the CMM 
I was wondering if you have seen any third party sync devices that are 
rack mount and can handle 10+ radios. In fact, handling 24 radios would 
be awesome for us.


-Matt






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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary
These are good and important questions Tom. I think StarOS and Mikrotik
offer tremendous value for some WISPs, but it really depends. One big
thing it depends on is the operator's exit strategy. Once that money is
spent on a home brew solution, I'm not sure it ever comes back.
BreezeACCESS VL is fully certified and manufactured in ISO-certified
plants and also uses ISO-certified components. I can tell you the MTBF
of VL is: 550,110 hours for the AU/SU ODU, 1,667,502 hours for the AU
IDU, and 169,929 for the SU IDU. 
Money spent on Alvarion is returned by increasing the equity value of
the network and making the network much more valuable to roll-ups. I do
not know anyone with a large homebrew network that was rolled up (I am
sure there are examples, I just don't know 'em). I do know several with
Alvarion networks that have been rolled up.

And even if you do don't want to get rolled up or sold, what is the
lifespan of a home brew solution? Can it carry you forward to additional
services? What's the OPEX environment look like -- is the gear cheap but
the ongoing maintenance and worry offset that? I don't pretend to know
that since I am only anecdotally familiar with what Lonnie's product
offers or what the guys in Latvia can really deliver.
 
Patrick 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 2:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

To be fair, you shouldn't leave out OEM products from the discussion 
(Mikrotik / StarOS)
These products are actually competitors to all the lines that were
listed 
herein.

I think the best decission, may be more relevant to what capacity that a

WISP intends to need, and finance ability for the size it intends to
grow.
For example, I believe having the first-in pick of a cell site, will 
guarantee better performance and reliabilty to the subscribers than the
type 
of Radio that is selected.
Thats one of the reasons that we chose Trango, we were able to deploy a
huge 
number of sites cost effectively and reliably with the product, with
limited 
financing and capitol.

Where product justification may come in, is when a WISP scales larger. 
There is a big benefit to be able to deliver 30 mbps to a sector. The
reason 
is that it allow oversubscription to high ARPU subs when doing PtMP.  I
can 
sell 5 mbps speeds and oversubscribe. Thats hard to do on a 10mbps
sector. 
Of course their is the arguement that there is little benefit to having
a 
fast sectors with a limited speed backhaul.  But many WISPs that would 
justify Alvarion, may have fiber at their cell sites or afford Licensed 
backhaul.

The question is, will your market support the higher vision? For
example, if 
we would have chosen Alvarion 5 years ago, we would have bankrupted, as 
their was not enough customer awareness to allow us to make enough sales

quickly enough to cost justify it.  It also depends on roof right fees.
When 
you are paying a premium, it helps to go after higher ARPU and VOIP
services 
to help jsutify the high lease fees.  Its harder to make it work for
just 
data revenue.  If you have good lease deals, this is not an issue.   So
part 
of it is the ratio of antenna lease fee to the capacity of teh radio 
(capcity including amount of voice it can do).

The point I'm making is that the winner is not necessarilly based on the

spec sheet, its based on the business plan.

I'm seeing a clear picture of when and where Alvarion would be the
preferred 
choice, and I see a clear picture of when and where Trango would be the 
clear choice, but I'm having a hard time homing in on any specific case 
where Canopy would be the Clear better choice.

I beleive Canopy, is now an adequate choice for just about any of the 
markets, but where is it the best choice?  Maybe Canopy is the product
that 
offers a good compromise to fit into each of the markets? Advantage
offers a 
lit more speed than Trango in some areas, and a little better cost than 
Alvarion, and although not the lowest or best, it offers affordable
products 
on the low end. I'm sure many Canopy users won't agree with that said 
statement. But considering price, and business plan, not just features, 
where would Canopy fit, as the best product for a specfic need?

About the only thing that I've homed in on would be, a location where 
Horizonatl noise is higher than verticle, and the provider has a large 
number of Verticle systems planned (GPS sync), and is worried about 
interfering with himself, and noise is high enough that C/I is a big 
concern, and the provider may outsource a lot of technical duties, so
wants 
to control high outsourced technical costs by choosing a more consistent

product that has less technical firmware issues?

For that reason, I may see where a large national company Canopy for
their 
lower volume sites, that Alvarion was not cost justified for.

For the record, the specfic cases that I feel trango is 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary








Hi Tom. What hardware features are you
referring to?





Patrick










 
 

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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Gino A. Villarini
Tom,

I can give you some Canopy buying tips off line ...

Also I would like to add that the $150 Trango fox is basically useless with
the Dish, putting its true price to $250 or so ...

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

Gino,

The prices you state seem way low.  I've only see nthat on temporar or Ebay 
type buying.
Is their a CONSISTENT source for $225 and $550 pricing in less than 25 qty?

I believe that anyone that is required to buy in qty higher than 25 to get 
best price is getting overly burdened and likely loosing their savings after

looking at all cash flow costs.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs


 Let me comment on this 

 #Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)

 is this MRSP ? you can buy this the AP for $800 +/- , Advantage for $1500

 #C/I advantage
 #Fixed up/down ratio

 Add GPS Sync, Feature rich firmware, NMS Software, Strong support, Good
 promos, Only Manufacturer to offer price conscious upgrade program, third
 party products (dishes , gps syncs) ect ect ect

 #$490 CPE ($737 advantage) .. yikes with CPE you have 3 options :

 Canopy Lite (1mbps) $170 +/- 25 packs
 Canopy (14 Mbps Burst) $225 +/-
 Canopy Advantage (14 Mbps sustained ) $550 ( way over priced IMHO )



 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:31 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] vendor specs

 Hi,

 I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this
 discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)

 This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data
 on any of these radios:

 Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
 Dual polarity
 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
 Easy management (CLI and web)
 $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

 Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
 C/I advantage
 Fixed up/down ratio
 $490 CPE ($737 advantage)

 Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
 36Mbps and 40,000pps
 $1,000 CPE

 For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over
 2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked
 very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater
 locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs,
 etc.) within 100 yards of each other.

 Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of
 radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is
 full. We attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site
 survey at this location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the average
 signals ranged from -25 to -55 at the best. :(

 Travis
 Microserv

 Jon Langeler wrote:

 Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not only
 extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started using
 canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3
 different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest
 that there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a
 pretty darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's
 vision, it keeps getting better.

 ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ is
 fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also
 suffer from increased latency and less throughput during those
 retransmissions. Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep
 customers happy. Having a low C/I means the system will be stable more
 often and maintain a lower retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an option
 in the 5800 model which is what you and I probably have a decent
 percentage of in our Trango networks. Having a low C/I requirement
 affects other things like increases the range of a product. I'm laying
 out facts, you can convince yourself of whatever you want...

 Jon Langeler
 Michwave Tech.

 Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have
 often chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a good
 WISP neighbor, not because I had to.  Why fight if you can
 cooperate.  On a SPEC sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I.  But
 Trango's specified C/I was reported before considering ARQ. And
 Trango has always underspec'd their spec sheets.  C/I is not nearly
 as relevant as SNR resilience anyway. With Arq, we've easilly ran
 links as low as 4 db above the average noise floor, reliably.  

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Gino A. Villarini
Tom, Can you achieve a solid link with the Trango Atals Fox for more than 1
mile ?

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

Trango is no where near $400 for Atlas Foxes.  Trango's Atlas Fox's distance

without dish is just about the same as the standard Canopy CPE (same DBI 
antenna).
Remember that Trango lists retail on their site to protest the WISP.  Low 
volume WISP special pricing is granted to any WISP.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Will [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


 Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the trango 
 site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing for 
 trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?
 I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th 
 largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions junk 
 BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC, Stonebridge 
 and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage area.  My 
 PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont have any 
 issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have on 900mhz is 
 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use omni's so that I 
 dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are playing in the 
 same sand box.
 Canopy pricing:
 AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
 CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15 mile 
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
 CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile 
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)

 Anthony Will
 Broadband Corp.


 Travis Johnson wrote:
 Hi,

 I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this 
 discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)

 This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data on

 any of these radios:

 Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
 Dual polarity
 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
 Easy management (CLI and web)
 $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

 Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
 C/I advantage
 Fixed up/down ratio
 $490 CPE ($737 advantage)

 Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
 36Mbps and 40,000pps
 $1,000 CPE

 For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over 2,000

 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked very 
 well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater locations 
 that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs, etc.) within 
 100 yards of each other.

 Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of radio

 choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is full. We 
 attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site survey at this 
 location across the entire 2.4ghz band, the average signals ranged 
 from -25 to -55 at the best. :(

 Travis
 Microserv

 Jon Langeler wrote:

 Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not only 
 extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started using 
 canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3 
 different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest that

 there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a pretty 
 darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's vision, 
 it keeps getting better.

 ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ is 
 fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also suffer 
 from increased latency and less throughput during those retransmissions.

 Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep customers happy. Having a 
 low C/I means the system will be stable more often and maintain a lower 
 retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an option in the 5800 model which is 
 what you and I probably have a decent percentage of in our Trango 
 networks. Having a low C/I requirement affects other things like 
 increases the range of a product. I'm laying out facts, you can convince

 yourself of whatever you want...

 Jon Langeler
 Michwave Tech.

 Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have 
 often chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a good 
 WISP neighbor, not because I had to.  Why fight if you can cooperate. 
 On a SPEC sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I.  But Trango's 
 specified C/I was reported before considering ARQ. And Trango has 
 always underspec'd their spec sheets.  C/I is not nearly as 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Gino A. Villarini
Trango Atlas CPE with dish  $250?
Canopy with dish $275

Canopy Advantage Cluster:
6 Ap's @ $1500 each = $9k (you can start your pop with a fcc certified omni
unit for $2.7k and evolve to a full sector later)
CMM Micro for Power and Sync = $1.5k *optional
BAM - Prizm = $2k *optional

The CMM Micro is optional component for GPS Sync, you can achieve sync among
the cluster with 10 ft of cat 5 and 6 rj11 connectors

BAM - Prizm is a NMS for Management but is NOT a required component, you can
manage all your settings from the web interface on each unit including
bandwidth and such.  I would only recommend the Prizm NMS for big WISP's
(200+ units )

About the Third Party:

There are a couple on 3rd party improvements for canopy, almost all were
created on a cost savings stand point, Example:

Motorola reflector dish for 10 mile + links $100
Beehive Wireless reflector dish for 10 mile links $49.95 (fcc certified)

Motorola CMM GPS Sync System $1.5k
PacketFLux GPS Sync $300

Any other questions ?

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:53 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

So what is the onesy-twosy price of a Trango Atlas with an extended
range antenna? What is the price for a Canopy Advantage CPE with
extended range? I have plenty of data I've found, but there seems to be
some wide discrepancy here among you folks.

How about total cost for a Canopy cluster with the BAM, GPS synch, and
other little extra things you need for it to be complete?

Also, I've heard a number of you talk about availability of third party
improvements like it is a benefit of the Canopy system. Seriously, isn't
that more a reflection of the glaring gaps in Canopy that have led smart
WISP entrepreneurs to capitalize?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 1:13 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

Trango is no where near $400 for Atlas Foxes.  Trango's Atlas Fox's
distance 
without dish is just about the same as the standard Canopy CPE (same DBI

antenna).
Remember that Trango lists retail on their site to protest the WISP.
Low 
volume WISP special pricing is granted to any WISP.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Will [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


 Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the
trango 
 site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing
for 
 trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?
 I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th

 largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions
junk 
 BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC,
Stonebridge 
 and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage area.  My

 PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont have any

 issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have on 900mhz
is 
 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use omni's so that
I 
 dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are playing in
the 
 same sand box.
 Canopy pricing:
 AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
 CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15
mile 
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
 CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15
mile 
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)

 Anthony Will
 Broadband Corp.


 Travis Johnson wrote:
 Hi,

 I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this 
 discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)

 This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more
data on 
 any of these radios:

 Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
 Dual polarity
 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
 Easy management (CLI and web)
 $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

 Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
 C/I advantage
 Fixed up/down ratio
 $490 CPE ($737 advantage)

 Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
 36Mbps and 40,000pps
 $1,000 CPE

 For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over
2,000 
 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked
very 
 well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater
locations 
 that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs, etc.)
within 
 100 yards of each other.

 Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of
radio 
 choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station 

***SPAM*** RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Chuck


.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:44 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Trango Atlas CPE with dish  $250?
Canopy with dish $275

Canopy Advantage Cluster:
6 Ap's @ $1500 each = $9k (you can start your pop with a fcc certified omni
unit for $2.7k and evolve to a full sector later)
CMM Micro for Power and Sync = $1.5k *optional
BAM - Prizm = $2k *optional

The CMM Micro is optional component for GPS Sync, you can achieve sync among
the cluster with 10 ft of cat 5 and 6 rj11 connectors

BAM - Prizm is a NMS for Management but is NOT a required component, you can
manage all your settings from the web interface on each unit including
bandwidth and such.  I would only recommend the Prizm NMS for big WISP's
(200+ units )

About the Third Party:

There are a couple on 3rd party improvements for canopy, almost all were
created on a cost savings stand point, Example:

Motorola reflector dish for 10 mile + links $100
Beehive Wireless reflector dish for 10 mile links $49.95 (fcc certified)

Motorola CMM GPS Sync System $1.5k
PacketFLux GPS Sync $300

Any other questions ?

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:53 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

So what is the onesy-twosy price of a Trango Atlas with an extended
range antenna? What is the price for a Canopy Advantage CPE with
extended range? I have plenty of data I've found, but there seems to be
some wide discrepancy here among you folks.

How about total cost for a Canopy cluster with the BAM, GPS synch, and
other little extra things you need for it to be complete?

Also, I've heard a number of you talk about availability of third party
improvements like it is a benefit of the Canopy system. Seriously, isn't
that more a reflection of the glaring gaps in Canopy that have led smart
WISP entrepreneurs to capitalize?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 1:13 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

Trango is no where near $400 for Atlas Foxes.  Trango's Atlas Fox's
distance 
without dish is just about the same as the standard Canopy CPE (same DBI

antenna).
Remember that Trango lists retail on their site to protest the WISP.
Low 
volume WISP special pricing is granted to any WISP.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Will [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


 Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the
trango 
 site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing
for 
 trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?
 I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th

 largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions
junk 
 BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC,
Stonebridge 
 and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage area.  My

 PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont have any

 issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have on 900mhz
is 
 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use omni's so that
I 
 dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are playing in
the 
 same sand box.
 Canopy pricing:
 AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
 CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15
mile 
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
 CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15
mile 
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)

 Anthony Will
 Broadband Corp.


 Travis Johnson wrote:
 Hi,

 I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this 
 discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)

 This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more
data on 
 any of these radios:

 Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
 Dual polarity
 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
 Easy management (CLI and web)
 $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

 Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
 C/I advantage
 Fixed up/down ratio
 $490 CPE ($737 advantage)

 Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
 36Mbps and 40,000pps
 $1,000 CPE

 For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over
2,000 
 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked
very 
 well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater
locations 
 that literally 

[WISPA] Kudos to Scriv!

2006-09-24 Thread Mike Cowan

Hi all,

I just have to say how much I enjoy working in the WISP 
marketplace.  One of my customers had a power supply failure this 
weekend.  No inexpensive way to get a replacement to them, and no, no 
spare on hand.  I looked at our client map and saw Mount Vernon.net 
was close to them.  One email to Scriv and he happily gave up one of 
his spares.  The system was down for hours instead of days as the result.


And now the rest of the story...

The WISP that had the failure is a privately owned system like 
most.  The owner/developer of the system got called to duty in 
Iraq.  In fact he sent me an email early from Iraq to tell me of the 
problem.  His wife has taken over and is running the show while he is 
serving.  She is doing a bang up job too!


Thanks Again Scriv!

Mike




Mike Cowan
Wireless Connections
A Division of ACC
166 Milan Ave
Norwalk, OH  44857
419-660-6100
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wirelessconnections.net

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RE: [WISPA] Outsourced installations

2006-09-24 Thread Rick Smith









the answer is hire a company to do installations for you.  if
your employee just happens to own that company, well, oh well…



It’s all invoices.   Pay them as normal, and you don’t need to
worry about taxes, etc.  Your employee (or sub’d company J…) does
that on their own.







From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom
DeReggi
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 5:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations









Where the problems come in are, that paying
someone peice rate does NOT NEGATE the requirement to pay overtime for
Employees.





Nor does it Negate the IRS's definition of
what an EMployee is and a contractor is.











You have to restrict employees to work less
than 40 hours or prepair to pay time and a half for your peice rate. If
an employee works 60 hours, and completes three installs at in that week, at a
peice rate of $100 each you would pay the employee.











$300 / 60 hours = $5 per hour. Overtime (20
hours)would be paid on $100 of the pay. Addtional over time pay
(half time) would be $50. 





Total paycheck would be $350. 











If it took them 60 hours to just get two
installs done, they would be less than the minimum wage. 











So there are two requirements 





1) You must have a minimumpay,
calcuated on the total number of hours that THEY record working. 





2) Must figure out someonesaverage
hourly rate on a weekly basis. This complicates the accounting duties, and
forces the account to custom pay each employee each month.











Two problems that can occur are...











What if you want to pay an employee well,
because they are really doing a good job, and then one week they decide to go
really slow?You end up paying someone a huge amount of overtime
unexpectedly! 











What we learned was that aemployee's
record of stated hours worked was accurate. So paying peice rate does NOT
NEGATE the need of the management to record and manage the hours worked
by an employee. We learned, that an Employer is NOT responsible for their
productivity the employer is.So if they go to the movies all day
without you knowing it,and work late to get the job done, you still owe
them the overtime, regardless of what flat peice rate you negotiated.











These are some of the reasons that we chose
to put employees on Salary instead of Piece rate. We live in a sue happy
county. We just plan on everyone taking way to long for an install, and put
very low expectations on what they are expected to accomplish, and we save
onmanagement and accounting salaries.If they get done early,
we have them do other things. I won't talk about what happens if they
don't get their work done, thats handled on a case by case basis. So we
chose salary for ease. IF they consistently do well, they get a higher
salary and stock options. It creates a team effort, not a what do I get
mentality.











I don't know if that is the right decission
or not, it really takes our guys a long time to get things done. I often consider
whether I should migrate back to peice rate. 

















Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband



















- Original Message - 





From: Pete Davis 





To: WISPA General List 





Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:10 AM





Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations









According to the DOL (department of Labor) an employee
can be paid by the hour or for piece work (by the job)

from http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/minwage.htm

The
Act requires employers of covered employees who are not otherwise exempt to pay
these employees a minimum wage of not less than $5.15 an hour as of September
1, 1997. Youths under 20 years of age may be paid a minimum wage of not less
than $4.25 an hour during the first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment
with an employer. Employers may not displace any employee to hire someone at
the youth minimum wage.

Employers
may pay employees on a piece‑rate basis, as long as they receive at least
the equivalent of the required minimum hourly wage rate. Employers of tipped
employees (i.e., those who customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a
month in tips) may consider such tips as part of their wages, but employers
must pay a direct wage of at least $2.13 per hour if they claim a tip credit.
They must also meet certain other conditions.

I suppose that if these guys manage
to spend over 20 (10 hrs each) hrs on every install for the pay period, then I
would have to adjust their pay to bring them up to minimum wage. That hasn't
been a problem. They average about 3 hrs/install including drive time. This is
about twice as fast as installs got done back when they were paid hourly. This
is a win/win/win solution as I see it. The employees like the method for making
extra money. The customers like the techs getting in and out in a reasonable
time. I like getting 2 or 3 installs/day 

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Jack Unger

Patrick,

Good list. One question that I have...

Does the VL use polling or is it CSMA/CA?

Your list says it is not some basic CSMA/CA but does that mean it is 
or is not CSMA/CA?


Thanks very much,
   jack


Patrick Leary wrote:
I believe most if not all of the below are features not found among 
Trango or Canopy. I list a few of the advanced features. A few of these 
(probably some you have never heard of before or even thought of) I show 
in detail. Maybe this post will also explain why the VL is not simply an 
Atheros chipset in a case and why it is not simply some basic CSMA/CA. 
This is just a small sampling. The manual, with lots of tables, 
drawings, etc., is 277 pages of which most relate to things that can be 
configured/optimized. (I can send the pdf to any who want it.)


 

· Chassis-based or stand alone AUs with multiple LEDs on the 
chassi blade versions, including current consumption


· Redundant power supplies with status LEDs, including over 
temperature warning


· GPS-sync module (for hoppers) also can be used for VL for 
their alarm capabilities


· 110vAC or -48vDC power options

· Built-in Ethernet repeater in the chassis blades to support 
over 600 feet from network switch/router to ODUs


· AUs with antenna options, including built-in 60, 90, or 120 
degree sectors plus options with external connector


· OFDM (with FEQ) for NLOS ability to enable connection of more 
of the potential subscriber population


· Adaptive modulation with configurable minimum modulation

· Up to 40Mbps net (ftp) per sector

· Over 40,000pps with small packets

· No loss in capacity with varying frame size (all other UL gear 
capacity is dramatically reduced when passing small packets


· FIPS 197 option. AES standard, no extra charge

· Virtual LANs based on IEEE 802.1Q with standard QinQ built-in 
support


· Layer-2 traffic prioritization based on IEEE 802.1p and 
layer-3 traffic prioritization based on either IP ToS Precedence 
(RFC791) or DSCP (RFC2474). It also supports traffic prioritization 
based on UDP and/or TCP port ranges. In addition, it may use the 
optional Wireless Link Prioritization (WLP) feature to fully support 
delay sensitive applications, enabling Multimedia Application 
Prioritization (MAP) for high performance voice and video. (MAP can 
increase VoIP capacity by as much as 500%)


· Built-in surge suppression in both ODU and IDU

· Full management of all components, from any point in the system.

· Components can be managed using standard management tools 
through SNMP agents that implement standard and proprietary MIBs for 
remote setting of operational modes and parameters. Security features 
incorporated in BreezeACCESS VL units restrict access for management 
purposes to specific IP addresses and/or directions, that is, from the 
Ethernet and/or wireless link.


· True toll quality VoIP (MOS of 4.1 or better)

· Upload new or updated configuration file to multiple 
(selectable) units simultaneously, thus radically reducing the time 
spent on unit configuration maintenance.


· Back up/shadow flash, can support two different versions of 
firmware


· 5MHz (4.9GHz version), 10MHz, or 20MHz channel options.

· SUs autorecognize and configure channel size

· SUs available with external connector or integrated 21dBi with 
10.5h/10.5v beamwidth


· Multilevel password, multi-layer ESSIDs

· Configuration of remote access direction (from Ethernet only, 
from wireless link only or from both)


· Configuration of IP addresses of authorized stations

· Numerous LEDs detailing advanced status information, plus 
tri-color 10-bar alignment LEDs that directly corresponds to SNR, 
including amber for warning signal is too strong (SNR 50dB)


· Pole mount or band strap mounting options, hardware included

· Power supply included, with reset feature and integrated surge 
suppression


· Specialty Cat 5 connector

· Industrial grade waterproof seal with O rings

· Auto or configurable maximum cell distance

· Automatic distance learning. Per SU Distance Learning 
mechanism controlled by the AU enables each SU to adapt its Acknowledge 
timeout to its actual distance from the AU, minimizing delays in the 
wireless link


· Low Priority Traffic Minimum Percent feature ensures a 
selectable certain amount of the traffic is reserved to low priority 
packets to prevent starvation of low priority traffic when there is a 
high demand for high priority traffic.


· MAC address deny and allow list

· Able to configure size of concatenated frames (enables 
customization/optimization based on expected applications)


· Best AU and preferred AU options in the SUs. (Best AU 
explanation: each 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Brad Belton
So like I suggested before simply put another $40 Atheros radio in there
tuned to 5.3GHz.  This has been mentioned before by more than just me.

How is that a simple CM9 (Atheros radio) is capable of 5.3GHz and 5.8GHz
with little or no degradation?  I think your RD folks are not being as
forthcoming with you as they should.

BTW, stop trying to play the victim here Patrick.  It's very unbecoming of
you.  These are basic straightforward suggestions that have been proven in
competing products.  This discussion will only improve your product
awareness and hopefully the suggestions you cultivate here will trickle up
to your RD team and be implemented.

So far we've made progress on the RSSI topic and the dual polarity item.
Don't expect us to give up until we get dual band as well.  grin

Best,

Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

There are arguments against dual band support, as we have discussed
before, though you ridicule our sincere reasoning and call it BS (which
is why I am cautious about discussing these things with you in public).

As I said to you, our RD folks tell me that RF components that span a
broad frequency range have poorer performance than those designed for
more narrow frequency ranges. I don't have a Ph.D in EE or other science
disciplines, so I'm not going to argue with them. And as I have further
explained, that poorer edge performance may or may not be worth giving
up to get the benefit of dual band. That part is an economic question,
not a technical one.

At this point, our company has made the decision that the loss in
performance is not worth the benefits. And yes, our RD DO tend to be RF
purists (another thing you ridicule). That reality has its good and bad
points.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:24 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Agreed, VL does have more niche features and some of those can be the
sole
reason VL makes the cut and other products do not.  As you know VLAN
support
was the key feature in this particular case, but simply placing a CPE
router
on site will also fill that need.

I'm a believer in the VL product, but there are currently a few too many
basic pitfalls with the product.  If I didn't care I wouldn't be posting
about the VL.  Let's face it this is some of the best exposure a
manufacturer can ask for: users expressing improvements they would like
to
see implemented.

The improvement requests here aren't without merit.  Dual polarity and
dual
band capability are good ideas.  There isn't any argument against it, so
why
not implement it?  I guarantee it will result in additional VL sales.

Trango has many features that VL does not currently offer in addition to
the
extremely important Dual Polarity ability:

(1)  Rx Threshold to maintain full payload capacity in noisy areas
(2)  Far fewer commands that require a reboot
(3)  Much faster reboot
(4)  Dual band 5.3GHz and 5.8GHz in one product
(5)  RSSI reading local and remote side
(6)  Ability to locate noise at AU or SU without interrupting traffic

Considering Alvarion has a tech in the local area I wouldn't expect
anything
less than a free visit.  Scanning the numerous emails between all of
us on
this topic I'm unable to find the offer.  Could you forward me the
exchange
you are referring to?

Trango offered to fly a tech out to us from across the country for
free.
Free is in quotations because I don't believe anything is free...you're
paying for it somewhere in this case by purchasing product. grin

There is more, but it's Sunday and I've got yet another 4 or 5yr old
birthday party to attend!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Re dual polarity via software, I and others have always said it would be
nice. You've never heard me argue against it and you have heard me
acknowledge that this is Trango's key Trango only differentiator. But
we all understand that and have acknowledged it many times. Lots of
things are nice, some just have higher priority than others. For every 1
thing VL may not have relative to Trango, we can probably find 10 things
VL can do that Trango cannot, each of equal importance maybe to dual
polarity. The ability to do VoIP well would be such a thing. Those with
multipoint networks using Trango or Canopy are entirely stranded in
terms of being able to do VoIP to any reasonable scale. 

Come on Brad. I was personally involved in some of the threads where
I've seen my people (or me) attempt to answer every 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Brad Belton








lolyou are kidding right Patrick?



Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006
5:03 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs



Hi Tom. What hardware
features are you referring to?





Patrick










 
 

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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Anthony Will
Yes,  Motorola provides a service to any customer that purchases or has 
a canopy product installed for service.  This is a $40 mail in rebate 
that has to have a unique MAC address of the radio installed supplied.  
The end customer receives this rebate from Motorola.  The ISP is 
prohibited from receiving this money.  My guess on this is because they 
will actually have to pay it for every single radio they sell 
Personally I am a bit frustrated with the program, not of the fact that 
it doesnt work or any thing like that but I would prefer they just drop 
the radio cost by $40 but business is business. 



Obviously this can help with the residential end of things for 
advertising free or reduced cost installations or months service with 
mail in rebate  We advertise it as one month free service.  I must add 
that the program has had a noticeable effect on our residential customer 
advertising uptake.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.

Tom DeReggi wrote:

Are you saying that Motorola holds the financing?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs


If you're serving the residential market, and price is the big 
concern, it's
worth noting that Canopy has a $40 / customer residential rebate 
program

that's been going on for almost 2 years now

It's also worth noting with Canopy that you need to add ~$10 / unit for
power supplies (they are sold separately)

Regarding pricing

snip
AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
/snip

CPE pricing (if you're focusing on residential), should be adjusted to

25 pack:
LITE: $129 NET ($149 - 40 + 10) -- (this is currently a promo that ends
December 31)
Normal: $237 NET ($267 - 40 + 10)

100 pack:
Normal: $186 NET ($216 - $40 + 10)

Additionally, there are companies out there with Motorola Approved 0%
Financing programs that will let you spread your larger pack CPE 
consumption
over a longer period of time and get you to the next tier bundle pack 
price,

so you don't tie up important your working capital in inventory / gear

-Charles

---
Operating Manager - CTI
Yes...I'm back

WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Anthony Will
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the trango
site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing for
trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?

I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th
largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions junk
BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC,
Stonebridge and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage
area.  My PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont
have any issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have on
900mhz is 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use omni's
so that I dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are
playing in the same sand box.

Canopy pricing:
AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)

Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.


Travis Johnson wrote:

Hi,

I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this
discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)

This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data
on any of these radios:

Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
Dual polarity
10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
Easy management (CLI and web)
$149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
C/I advantage
Fixed up/down ratio
$490 CPE ($737 advantage)

Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
36Mbps and 40,000pps
$1,000 CPE

For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over
2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has
worked very well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop
repeater locations that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM,
WISPs, etc.) within 100 yards of each other.

Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of
radio choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is
full. We attempted 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary








Whats to kid about? What features? Unless
plastic with little options or choice except those ungainly reflectors are
considered a benefit in the hardware.



Patrick 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006
6:45 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs





lolyou are kidding right Patrick?



Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006
5:03 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs



Hi Tom. What hardware features
are you referring to?





Patrick










 
 

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PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(191).







 
 

This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(43).






 
 

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This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(42).






 
 

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PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses.



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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Travis Johnson
Ahhh... there's always a catch... so now Motorola has your customer's 
address and can use that for their own marketing, etc. without you ever 
knowing. They could possibly even sell the list to someone (ClearWire) 
down the road and you would never know.


Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:

Yes,  Motorola provides a service to any customer that purchases or 
has a canopy product installed for service.  This is a $40 mail in 
rebate that has to have a unique MAC address of the radio installed 
supplied.  The end customer receives this rebate from Motorola.  The 
ISP is prohibited from receiving this money.  My guess on this is 
because they will actually have to pay it for every single radio they 
sell Personally I am a bit frustrated with the program, not of the 
fact that it doesnt work or any thing like that but I would prefer 
they just drop the radio cost by $40 but business is business.


Obviously this can help with the residential end of things for 
advertising free or reduced cost installations or months service with 
mail in rebate  We advertise it as one month free service.  I must 
add that the program has had a noticeable effect on our residential 
customer advertising uptake.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.

Tom DeReggi wrote:


Are you saying that Motorola holds the financing?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs


If you're serving the residential market, and price is the big 
concern, it's
worth noting that Canopy has a $40 / customer residential rebate 
program

that's been going on for almost 2 years now

It's also worth noting with Canopy that you need to add ~$10 / unit for
power supplies (they are sold separately)

Regarding pricing

snip
AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
/snip

CPE pricing (if you're focusing on residential), should be adjusted to

25 pack:
LITE: $129 NET ($149 - 40 + 10) -- (this is currently a promo that ends
December 31)
Normal: $237 NET ($267 - 40 + 10)

100 pack:
Normal: $186 NET ($216 - $40 + 10)

Additionally, there are companies out there with Motorola Approved 0%
Financing programs that will let you spread your larger pack CPE 
consumption
over a longer period of time and get you to the next tier bundle pack 
price,

so you don't tie up important your working capital in inventory / gear

-Charles

---
Operating Manager - CTI
Yes...I'm back

WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Anthony Will
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the trango
site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing for
trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?

I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th
largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions junk
BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC,
Stonebridge and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage
area.  My PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont
have any issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have on
900mhz is 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use omni's
so that I dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are
playing in the same sand box.

Canopy pricing:
AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)

Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.


Travis Johnson wrote:


Hi,

I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this
discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)

This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data
on any of these radios:

Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
Dual polarity
10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
Easy management (CLI and web)
$149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
C/I advantage
Fixed up/down ratio
$490 CPE ($737 advantage)

Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
36Mbps and 40,000pps
$1,000 CPE

For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over
2,000 are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has
worked very well for us, and we are 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Patrick Leary
Speaking of Clearwire, folks here are aware that Motorola now owns
NextNet, the hardware supplier to Clearwire (that once was part of
Clearwire, at least in ownership terms), right? The purchase was IN
ADDITION to the $300M investment Motorola made into Clearwire
http://telephonyonline.com/wireless/finance/motorola_clearwire_nextnet_0
70606/

To give you an idea of how much that Moto investment is relative to your
Canopy businessthat is more than Canopy makes for Motorola worldwide
over 2 years. 

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

Ahhh... there's always a catch... so now Motorola has your customer's 
address and can use that for their own marketing, etc. without you ever 
knowing. They could possibly even sell the list to someone (ClearWire) 
down the road and you would never know.

Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:

 Yes,  Motorola provides a service to any customer that purchases or 
 has a canopy product installed for service.  This is a $40 mail in 
 rebate that has to have a unique MAC address of the radio installed 
 supplied.  The end customer receives this rebate from Motorola.  The 
 ISP is prohibited from receiving this money.  My guess on this is 
 because they will actually have to pay it for every single radio they 
 sell Personally I am a bit frustrated with the program, not of the

 fact that it doesnt work or any thing like that but I would prefer 
 they just drop the radio cost by $40 but business is business.

 Obviously this can help with the residential end of things for 
 advertising free or reduced cost installations or months service with 
 mail in rebate  We advertise it as one month free service.  I must 
 add that the program has had a noticeable effect on our residential 
 customer advertising uptake.

 Anthony Will
 Broadband Corp.

 Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Are you saying that Motorola holds the financing?

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:18 AM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs


 If you're serving the residential market, and price is the big 
 concern, it's
 worth noting that Canopy has a $40 / customer residential rebate 
 program
 that's been going on for almost 2 years now

 It's also worth noting with Canopy that you need to add ~$10 / unit
for
 power supplies (they are sold separately)

 Regarding pricing

 snip
 AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
 CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15
mile
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
 CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15
mile
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
 /snip

 CPE pricing (if you're focusing on residential), should be adjusted
to

 25 pack:
 LITE: $129 NET ($149 - 40 + 10) -- (this is currently a promo that
ends
 December 31)
 Normal: $237 NET ($267 - 40 + 10)

 100 pack:
 Normal: $186 NET ($216 - $40 + 10)

 Additionally, there are companies out there with Motorola Approved 0%
 Financing programs that will let you spread your larger pack CPE 
 consumption
 over a longer period of time and get you to the next tier bundle pack

 price,
 so you don't tie up important your working capital in inventory /
gear

 -Charles

 ---
 Operating Manager - CTI
 Yes...I'm back

 WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
 Coming to a City Near You
 http://www.winog.com



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Anthony Will
 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:17 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


 Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the
trango
 site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing
for
 trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?

 I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the
5th
 largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions
junk
 BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC,
 Stonebridge and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my
coverage
 area.  My PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I
dont
 have any issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have
on
 900mhz is 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use
omni's
 so that I dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are
 playing in the same sand box.

 Canopy pricing:
 AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
 CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15
mile
 range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
 CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15
mile
 

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

2006-09-24 Thread Anthony Will
No, it is my understanding that within the contractual terms of the 
agreement they are not allowed to directly solicit or sell my customers 
information.


Anthony Will

Travis Johnson wrote:
Ahhh... there's always a catch... so now Motorola has your customer's 
address and can use that for their own marketing, etc. without you 
ever knowing. They could possibly even sell the list to someone 
(ClearWire) down the road and you would never know.


Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:

Yes,  Motorola provides a service to any customer that purchases or 
has a canopy product installed for service.  This is a $40 mail in 
rebate that has to have a unique MAC address of the radio installed 
supplied.  The end customer receives this rebate from Motorola.  The 
ISP is prohibited from receiving this money.  My guess on this is 
because they will actually have to pay it for every single radio they 
sell Personally I am a bit frustrated with the program, not of 
the fact that it doesnt work or any thing like that but I would 
prefer they just drop the radio cost by $40 but business is business.


Obviously this can help with the residential end of things for 
advertising free or reduced cost installations or months service with 
mail in rebate  We advertise it as one month free service.  I must 
add that the program has had a noticeable effect on our residential 
customer advertising uptake.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.

Tom DeReggi wrote:


Are you saying that Motorola holds the financing?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs


If you're serving the residential market, and price is the big 
concern, it's
worth noting that Canopy has a $40 / customer residential rebate 
program

that's been going on for almost 2 years now

It's also worth noting with Canopy that you need to add ~$10 / unit for
power supplies (they are sold separately)

Regarding pricing

snip
AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
/snip

CPE pricing (if you're focusing on residential), should be adjusted to

25 pack:
LITE: $129 NET ($149 - 40 + 10) -- (this is currently a promo that ends
December 31)
Normal: $237 NET ($267 - 40 + 10)

100 pack:
Normal: $186 NET ($216 - $40 + 10)

Additionally, there are companies out there with Motorola Approved 0%
Financing programs that will let you spread your larger pack CPE 
consumption
over a longer period of time and get you to the next tier bundle 
pack price,

so you don't tie up important your working capital in inventory / gear

-Charles

---
Operating Manager - CTI
Yes...I'm back

WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Anthony Will
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the 
trango

site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing for
trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?

I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th
largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions 
junk

BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC,
Stonebridge and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my 
coverage

area.  My PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont
have any issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have on
900mhz is 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use 
omni's

so that I dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are
playing in the same sand box.

Canopy pricing:
AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15 mile
range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)

Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.


Travis Johnson wrote:


Hi,

I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this
discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)

This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more data
on any of these radios:

Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
Dual polarity
10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
Easy management (CLI and web)
$149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)

Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
C/I advantage
Fixed up/down ratio
$490 CPE ($737 advantage)

Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)