RE: [WISPA] FCC meeting with wisps
You folks meeting the FCC, can you ask about 3.65 ghz? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Webster Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] FCC meeting with wisps I had offered some time ago to help set up a WISPA sponsored and maintained web mapping server. This server could be tied to a database and have whatever security is desired to maintain data security. Actual network coverage footprints for each and every WISP could be possible on these maps with security implemented to not show the public who covers where. The benefit of doing this would be to finally show people like the FCC and Congress the combined footprint of the WISP industry as a whole. With this combined footprint it is easy to calculate the population, households and other socio economic data that the WISP industry serves TODAY. For whatever reason this idea has never taken root. I was not willing to do all of this for free so that probably stopped it cold. If WISPA were serious about doing something of this nature I would certainly lend my expertise to outline the methods and requirements to set something like this up (and yes I would do that part for free). It's a geographic information systems based software solution (GIS). Used properly it can be a powerful tool and if WISPA were armed with this type of hard data they could really start to put pressure on legislators. We would even be able to tell each legislator what the numbers were for the WISP's in their specific districts, without a combined base map data set of the WISP territories it is not possible. It requires all WISP's to pull together and make their footprint be known and entered in to the mapping server database. It does not require that it be made public nor given over to any other entity. WISPA could be the guardian of the data. This was what I thought WISPA could do for the industry a long time ago. I made the suggestion but it did not seem like there was a collective voice that wanted to do this. Is the time right to approach the idea again? If anyone wants and idea of what types of things GIS can do, there is a link to a PowerPoint presentation on my web site. It does not specifically address the concept of what I am proposing but it gives the general idea. This same system could also be used for any disaster planning and recovery programs that Marlon mentions. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 9:03 PM To: WISPA General List Cc: Principal WISPA Member List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC meeting with wisps Those are great points Forbes. Let me hit on a couple of points. First, we'll be spending some time training again. There are a lot of new people at the FCC and I hope to get them there. They don't know what a WISP is or why we are so important in the market place, let alone what we actually do. I'm going to try for TWO meetings. One that's really basic and one that would get more detailed about current market trends, what's working well and what isn't etc. Next, your idea on a goal to walk out of there with. It just so happens I've been working, as time allows, on an idea. As we talked on the phone the other day, you had a local disaster hit a week or two ago. *I* should have been down there to help you get your customers back online. We only had one customer go down and who would have known that his chimney and tv antenna and my antenna would come down in a 60 mph breeze. After all, we had 80mph a year or two ago *I* could have gone down there and helped out for a couple of days and only had to put off a few installs. No bid deal, people would have understood. I didn't think of going and you probably didn't think of asking. The idea I've been working on is that we create a database. A map actually. On this map we'll list ever provider out there and what technology they use, what skill sets they have (climbers, network admins etc.). When a disaster hits (like what hit Seattle or whatever), someone with the authority to do so will click on the areas around the disaster and start contacting providers to see what they can do to help the guys that are in the disaster. What needs to happen is for FEMA, FCC, Red Cross etc. appoints a liaison with WISPA, when the stuff hits the fan, they contact us saying that they need access, or whatever, in x areas and we get on the phone and start moving help into the area. I want this to be an official deal. I want wispa to be in the first few phone calls or emails. I want us to do what we did after Katrina, but I want to do it better, faster and in a more coordinated manner.
[WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Strange network issues crosspost
Chadd, Did that fix your problem or do you still have issues? Merry Christmas! Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chadd Thompson Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 5:09 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Strange network issues crosspost Well I did a bit of searching on the trango support forums and found a thread of someone with a similar problem. Trango support made a recommendation to turn off the maclist filter off on the RU. I went a head and turned it off on the RU's, telnet in and issue maclist filter off command. I did this last night sometime and have not had any issues as of yet. Since last week sometime I was having to reboot the BH's twice a day or more. I will see what happens with it and if this doesn't do it I will let you guys know. Funny thing about this is that about a week ago I was thinking to myself damn those link 10's have ran good the last few years. I was an early adopter of the link 10 and had nothing but issues with them for the first 6 months or so after release, I felt like a beta tester. Once they fixed software bugs though they have ran well, until now that is. Problems like this make you realize how quickly and unexpectedly things can take a crap on you with little or no changes to your network. Thanks again for the help. Chadd -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Strange network issues crosspost Chadd, That is a Trango command and it does turn arp off. I have both worlds here - - bridged and routed and I have never had any of my TLink 10's to do that to me. I am not saying that's not your problem - I am just saying I have never had that issue. We have many more than 300 traversing Tlink10 backhauls today - - - What firmware are you running? Is there a certain time of the day things go awry? A certain temp? Is there a pps correlation? What is each Tlink plugged in to? Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Barber Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:56 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Strange network issues crosspost Mac, We tried that but it didn't totally resolve the issue. Chadd, I would guess it was around 100. Todd Barber Skylink Broadband Internet [EMAIL PROTECTED] 970-454-9499 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:09 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Strange network issues crosspost telnet: arp -bcast off Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Barber Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:01 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Strange network issues crosspost Chadd, We experienced similar issues when our network was entirely bridged. The root of the problem turned out to be the ARP table in the Trangos we were using as are primary BHs. Once the number of clients behind the Trangos exceeded a certain limit the ARP table gets corrupted. Trango does not have a fix for this issue. As a temporary fix you can set up a script to reset the ARP table in the Trangos on a regular basis. The command line for the 5800 and 5830 units is maclist reset. We have moved to a mostly routed network which has greatly reduced the number of MAC addresses seen by the Trangos. This fixed the problem. Todd Barber Skylink Broadband Internet [EMAIL PROTECTED] 970-454-9499 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chadd Thompson Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:00 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Strange network issues crosspost Sorry to cross post this guys but I am looking for suggestions and wasn't sure if everyone is on both lists. I have been having an intermittent problem the last few days. A few of my AP's and CPE's will stop responding. These are a mixture of brands, Trango, MT, Brilan, they are on different network segments, different frequencies. The strange thing that not all the radios on the segment will have problems only some, and even more odd is that an AP can stop responding but you can still access some of the CPE's associated with it and they will pass traffic fine. In any case a reboot of the backhaul that feeds each individual segment will bring them all back up again for a random amount of time. I have checked the BH links when things start going haywire and can't seem to find any issues, no oddball traffic, packets per second seem fine. Also my ARP tables seem to be fine when this happens, but I haven't tried to flush my ARP when I have the issue.
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
3650 was -- Re: [WISPA] FCC meeting with wisps
what would you like to know? There was something just released about 3650. Anyone remember what it was??? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:54 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] FCC meeting with wisps You folks meeting the FCC, can you ask about 3.65 ghz? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Webster Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] FCC meeting with wisps I had offered some time ago to help set up a WISPA sponsored and maintained web mapping server. This server could be tied to a database and have whatever security is desired to maintain data security. Actual network coverage footprints for each and every WISP could be possible on these maps with security implemented to not show the public who covers where. The benefit of doing this would be to finally show people like the FCC and Congress the combined footprint of the WISP industry as a whole. With this combined footprint it is easy to calculate the population, households and other socio economic data that the WISP industry serves TODAY. For whatever reason this idea has never taken root. I was not willing to do all of this for free so that probably stopped it cold. If WISPA were serious about doing something of this nature I would certainly lend my expertise to outline the methods and requirements to set something like this up (and yes I would do that part for free). It's a geographic information systems based software solution (GIS). Used properly it can be a powerful tool and if WISPA were armed with this type of hard data they could really start to put pressure on legislators. We would even be able to tell each legislator what the numbers were for the WISP's in their specific districts, without a combined base map data set of the WISP territories it is not possible. It requires all WISP's to pull together and make their footprint be known and entered in to the mapping server database. It does not require that it be made public nor given over to any other entity. WISPA could be the guardian of the data. This was what I thought WISPA could do for the industry a long time ago. I made the suggestion but it did not seem like there was a collective voice that wanted to do this. Is the time right to approach the idea again? If anyone wants and idea of what types of things GIS can do, there is a link to a PowerPoint presentation on my web site. It does not specifically address the concept of what I am proposing but it gives the general idea. This same system could also be used for any disaster planning and recovery programs that Marlon mentions. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 9:03 PM To: WISPA General List Cc: Principal WISPA Member List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC meeting with wisps Those are great points Forbes. Let me hit on a couple of points. First, we'll be spending some time training again. There are a lot of new people at the FCC and I hope to get them there. They don't know what a WISP is or why we are so important in the market place, let alone what we actually do. I'm going to try for TWO meetings. One that's really basic and one that would get more detailed about current market trends, what's working well and what isn't etc. Next, your idea on a goal to walk out of there with. It just so happens I've been working, as time allows, on an idea. As we talked on the phone the other day, you had a local disaster hit a week or two ago. *I* should have been down there to help you get your customers back online. We only had one customer go down and who would have known that his chimney and tv antenna and my antenna would come down in a 60 mph breeze. After all, we had 80mph a year or two ago *I* could have gone down there and helped out for a couple of days and only had to put off a few installs. No bid deal, people would have understood. I didn't think of going and you probably didn't think of asking. The idea I've been working on is that we create a database. A map actually. On this map we'll list ever provider out there and what technology they use, what skill sets they have (climbers, network admins etc.). When a disaster hits (like what hit Seattle or whatever), someone with the authority to do
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hey Marlon, the price thresholds are there now for residential too. That's a big part of the entire program. A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Right on! Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. That's what I plan on using. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
BreezeACCESS VL CPE under the AlvarionCOMNET program can be had for as low as $245. Even at $285, I'd contend it is cheaper than an equivalent quantity of Canopy or Trango and with better total performance plus the ability to be used for large bandwidth-requiring customers. Also, the OPEX from install time to management is less, likely much less. I believe that at no other time in the history of the WISP market has such a premium product been available for so low. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:54 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Patrick, $285 WAS a residential price back in 2004 People now want $185 (or lower) CPEs ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hey Marlon, the price thresholds are there now for residential too. That's a big part of the entire program. A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Right on! Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. That's what I plan on using. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
It's much closer Patrick. That's for sure. Let run some numbers though. Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap: $450ish. Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges up to 10 miles. 1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles. Sector antenna, $400. Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and antenna. This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily. If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, battery backup, switch, cables etc. If we're lucky that'll even include backhaul. For CPE the cost is gonna be around: 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good ones from PacWireless) $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot) Misc. nuts and bolts $20. We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor. Connectorized version, $180ish 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones)) Mount, $12 Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20 Cable, $10 to $20. This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done. Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too. But I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural areas. Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them. Many are under 10. Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100. Last year we installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs. This with basically no marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition. Per customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive services. Our network now spans around 6000 square miles. It's taken over 20 sites with nearly 30 ap's to do this. Our growth potential is really good. But not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't be any more customers coming. We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear. Today we're using Trango. $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out). They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the box. Great security and flexibility. Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though. I want to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with enough growth to keep me in the program though. Even with resi. customers tossed in. If I were in Spokane, Seattle, Yakima etc. it would be a no brainer for me. The interference robustness, the scalability, the upgradeability etc. all make this a much more cut and dried decision. Especially the inference issues. I look at what we fight with out here with relatively few alien devices in the air. How guys like Forbes keep their customers running is a mystery to me. The manpower overhead has to be a killer. How do those numbers compare with a similar VL solution Help me find a way to justify the big boy toys. Trust me, the idea that I'd not need to do any work on my network appeals to me more and more with every new customer. But we're still taking care of things with 1.75 people and I spend an average of 25% to 30% of my day on these lists and other WISPA type duties so I probably really only count for a 3/4 time person. If I'd totally automate my billing, get rid of my time on the lists and forward the office calls to my cell phone I could probably do this with one person. (saving around $17,000 per year in payroll) But who wants to work that hard forever? And Mary is much nicer on the phone than I am :-). Have a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:35 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hey Marlon, the price thresholds are there now for residential too. That's a big part of the entire program. A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Right on! Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. That's what I plan on
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Charles, Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day with all things considered. The value of consistent availability and right out of the box deployment is PRICELIST! This doesn't only save cost of installer labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition. I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck. I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being a stronger residential play. I recently have done a lot with War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, and great testing tools with things like Iperf BUILT-IN able to test Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops increase as the backbone mesh grows. Alvarion is also a great product for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots. Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new low price, is in its residential application. The difference between $185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in operations. The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is unmatched. What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in using subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time to make sure they get the best signal. With my other gear, its such a pain to get best signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do installs with employees by the hour, so their income did not deter them from doing their best job. I gladly pay $100 more for a complete ready to go product. The only thing that keeps me from going 100% Alvarion for residential is that, I already have 100 APs installed of another manufacturer, and I need to focus on revenue not re-build out. Its not just the cost to replace the AP, its the cost to replace the consumers without downtime, all at once, when there is little free spectrum left to just install a new AP. To install a new AP, and existing AP must be removed first, in many cases. From a performance/reliabilty point of view, there is nothing wrong with the gear I previously preferred to use, but from an operations and installation point of view, my operations can scale much easier using the VL. Low marging residential is where that matters most. Its important to be able to have consistent install time and meet schedules. The other day I ran out of pigtail. The other day I ran out of thin thread stand offs. The other day I ran out of J-Arms. The other day I ran out of antennas that came with mounts that support 2-3/8 pole. Everyday there is a barrier that delays operations. Sure an easy barrier to fix, but still a delay. Instead of focussing on sales, I'm focusing on making sure I have enough Gold standoffs in stock (5 cent parts). There is something to be said for what Alvarion has offered through the Commnet program, probably one of the strongest value propositions offered to date. Its going to really make the competition work. Just my 2 cents. The competitions, just better hope that Alvarion doesn't offer an AP trade-up program, to help conversion. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:53 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Patrick, $285 WAS a residential price back in 2004 People now want $185 (or lower) CPEs ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hey Marlon, the price thresholds are there now for residential too. That's a big part of the entire program. A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Right on! Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. That's what I plan on using. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hello Tom, Just speaking from first hand experience and the experiences of the references Alvarion gave me. Nothing more. grin The VL gear is a great product for a best effort solution, but not a committed rate business class service. Two very different animals. Again, my post was only because Marlon indicated he intended to use the VL gear for a business class rollout. I just wanted to give him a heads up, that's all. I do believe Alvarion's move to lower the price on the VL gear was to put it within the reach of the market the product could best perform. The VL gear does fly on bursty - up to traffic. It is amazing when it works, but it isn't able to maintain that level of service 24x7. It's like the VL flys when it can and then holds off looking for clean air time then flys again. This is perfectly fine for 99% of the residential requirements, but doesn't cut it for a business that is pushing and pulling 5Mbps+ FDX 12hrs a day. In contrast a Trango M5830 will push and pull 4.5Mbps FDX or 8-9Mbps HDX all day long regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Brad, I'm not sure that is a fair statement. I agree, TDD/DSSS/Pol Diversity solutions can tackle that noise better, one of the reasons Trango is still the only clear choice for a good number of my cell sites. But there are many reasons WISPs are making the move to OFDM. Alvarion handles OFDM as well if not better than other OFDM solutions. If we are comparing apples to apples (OFDM to OFDM) Alvarion has many built in features to help guarantee QOS for high end business compared to other OFDM solutions. If OFDM is an Option for the WISP, Alvarion is as good an option as anyone else for the job. I do not agree that Alvarions move to go after residential market negates their quality for business markets. Residential markets will simply sell higher volume of CPEs, allowing a lower sale cost. For me the distinguishing factor in available OFDM gear is Ease out of the box versus Built-in testing tools and flexibility. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:11 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Right on! Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. That's what I plan on using. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Wow back at ya there, Mike! grin Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of noise. Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
OK then, Patrick, Ed, whoever, is the VL a CSMAK based product like WiFi or a polling based product like Trango? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:21 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Tom, Just speaking from first hand experience and the experiences of the references Alvarion gave me. Nothing more. grin The VL gear is a great product for a best effort solution, but not a committed rate business class service. Two very different animals. Again, my post was only because Marlon indicated he intended to use the VL gear for a business class rollout. I just wanted to give him a heads up, that's all. I do believe Alvarion's move to lower the price on the VL gear was to put it within the reach of the market the product could best perform. The VL gear does fly on bursty - up to traffic. It is amazing when it works, but it isn't able to maintain that level of service 24x7. It's like the VL flys when it can and then holds off looking for clean air time then flys again. This is perfectly fine for 99% of the residential requirements, but doesn't cut it for a business that is pushing and pulling 5Mbps+ FDX 12hrs a day. In contrast a Trango M5830 will push and pull 4.5Mbps FDX or 8-9Mbps HDX all day long regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Brad, I'm not sure that is a fair statement. I agree, TDD/DSSS/Pol Diversity solutions can tackle that noise better, one of the reasons Trango is still the only clear choice for a good number of my cell sites. But there are many reasons WISPs are making the move to OFDM. Alvarion handles OFDM as well if not better than other OFDM solutions. If we are comparing apples to apples (OFDM to OFDM) Alvarion has many built in features to help guarantee QOS for high end business compared to other OFDM solutions. If OFDM is an Option for the WISP, Alvarion is as good an option as anyone else for the job. I do not agree that Alvarions move to go after residential market negates their quality for business markets. Residential markets will simply sell higher volume of CPEs, allowing a lower sale cost. For me the distinguishing factor in available OFDM gear is Ease out of the box versus Built-in testing tools and flexibility. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:11 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Right on! Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. That's what I plan on using. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
- Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:26 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow back at ya there, Mike! grin Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of noise. Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. mks: Lets be fair here. Using the threshold also comes with a distance penalty. Knowing it takes roughly 6 dB to double your distance, setting the threshold from -80 to -75 can cut one's range from 5 to less than 3 miles. That's nearly 4x less potential customer base. mks: I love the rx threshold and I use it. However, it's not without it's own penalty. marlon Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hi Brad, The radio will auto modulate down from mod level 8 to 1 when faced with interference. They won't stop transmitting when interference is present however. They do work like any radio out there, two way radio, Ip radios, Trango radios all need a specific C/I ratio to run correctly. I don't know that I can properly engineer a Trango, Alvarion, or Redline link to cope with future unknown interference. Sure, big antennas, tight beams, and strong C/I ratios is the way to go but is it enough? Most of the time probably. So we engineer our links to be as resiliant as possible, but when somebody points that 4 foot dish down our throat I want a radio that will drop mod levels and cope with it, albeit at a reduced speed rather than one that only has 1 speed. I thought Trango added mod levels to their 5.8 product to help cope. Is that true or did it not get built? Merry Christmas! Mike At 03:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Wow back at ya there, Mike! grin Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of noise. Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Agreed, Trango is far from immune from interference, but they do give you a few more tools in your bag to combat it. (1) RX Threshold (2) Dual Polarity (3) Dual Band Alvarion VL offers none of these. If they did they would hands down be the best PtMP LE gear available today IMO. However, I don't think they ever will offer these features as it would be a conflict of interest with their more expensive licensed gear. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The radio will auto modulate down from mod level 8 to 1 when faced with interference. They won't stop transmitting when interference is present however. They do work like any radio out there, two way radio, Ip radios, Trango radios all need a specific C/I ratio to run correctly. I don't know that I can properly engineer a Trango, Alvarion, or Redline link to cope with future unknown interference. Sure, big antennas, tight beams, and strong C/I ratios is the way to go but is it enough? Most of the time probably. So we engineer our links to be as resiliant as possible, but when somebody points that 4 foot dish down our throat I want a radio that will drop mod levels and cope with it, albeit at a reduced speed rather than one that only has 1 speed. I thought Trango added mod levels to their 5.8 product to help cope. Is that true or did it not get built? Merry Christmas! Mike At 03:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Wow back at ya there, Mike! grin Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of noise. Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net --
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
I too am interested in what the minium price would be to put up a POP using Alvarion gear. I really like my Trango gear but this stuff sounds awesome and from what I read the Comnet program is just what I am looking for. To compare to build out a Trango POP it costs about 1600 that includes AP, a switch and a battery backup system. Can Alvarion get close to this? On 12/22/06, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's much closer Patrick. That's for sure. Let run some numbers though. Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap: $450ish. Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges up to 10 miles. 1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles. Sector antenna, $400. Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and antenna. This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily. If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, battery backup, switch, cables etc. If we're lucky that'll even include backhaul. For CPE the cost is gonna be around: 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good ones from PacWireless) $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot) Misc. nuts and bolts $20. We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor. Connectorized version, $180ish 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones)) Mount, $12 Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20 Cable, $10 to $20. This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done. Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too. But I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural areas. Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them. Many are under 10. Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100. Last year we installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs. This with basically no marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition. Per customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive services. Our network now spans around 6000 square miles. It's taken over 20 sites with nearly 30 ap's to do this. Our growth potential is really good. But not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't be any more customers coming. We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear. Today we're using Trango. $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out). They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the box. Great security and flexibility. Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though. I want to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with enough growth to keep me in the program though. Even with resi. customers tossed in. If I were in Spokane, Seattle, Yakima etc. it would be a no brainer for me. The interference robustness, the scalability, the upgradeability etc. all make this a much more cut and dried decision. Especially the inference issues. I look at what we fight with out here with relatively few alien devices in the air. How guys like Forbes keep their customers running is a mystery to me. The manpower overhead has to be a killer. How do those numbers compare with a similar VL solution Help me find a way to justify the big boy toys. Trust me, the idea that I'd not need to do any work on my network appeals to me more and more with every new customer. But we're still taking care of things with 1.75 people and I spend an average of 25% to 30% of my day on these lists and other WISPA type duties so I probably really only count for a 3/4 time person. If I'd totally automate my billing, get rid of my time on the lists and forward the office calls to my cell phone I could probably do this with one person. (saving around $17,000 per year in payroll) But who wants to work that hard forever? And Mary is much nicer on the phone than I am :-). Have a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Agreed, however like I said if the link is engineered properly the RX threshold will save you more times than not. Is the Trango immune from noise? Absolutely not, but at least you have a tool or two in your bag to work around it. RX threshold - dual band - dual polarity. VL has none of these! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:26 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow back at ya there, Mike! grin Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of noise. Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. mks: Lets be fair here. Using the threshold also comes with a distance penalty. Knowing it takes roughly 6 dB to double your distance, setting the threshold from -80 to -75 can cut one's range from 5 to less than 3 miles. That's nearly 4x less potential customer base. mks: I love the rx threshold and I use it. However, it's not without it's own penalty. marlon Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Merry Christmas
I just wanted to wish you all a very merry Christmas and a happy new year! It is truly an honor to be associated with y'all. I'm honored to be a part of one of the most progressive, trouble making lots that the internet has ever seen! Take care, sell lots, and above all, stay safe Marlon, Melissa, kids and staff (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Oh and BTW, what happens to a link that is trying to shove 5Mbps FDX through while auto-rated down to modulation 1 in the event of noise? It drops packets! That was our problem with the VL. The client experienced this and their applications simply would not work. We also were seeing ping packets dropping to the tune of 5-25%...not a good thing. Love to continue with this discussion, but I have a few more last minute Christmas errands to run! Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: Brad Belton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:45 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Agreed, Trango is far from immune from interference, but they do give you a few more tools in your bag to combat it. (1) RX Threshold (2) Dual Polarity (3) Dual Band Alvarion VL offers none of these. If they did they would hands down be the best PtMP LE gear available today IMO. However, I don't think they ever will offer these features as it would be a conflict of interest with their more expensive licensed gear. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The radio will auto modulate down from mod level 8 to 1 when faced with interference. They won't stop transmitting when interference is present however. They do work like any radio out there, two way radio, Ip radios, Trango radios all need a specific C/I ratio to run correctly. I don't know that I can properly engineer a Trango, Alvarion, or Redline link to cope with future unknown interference. Sure, big antennas, tight beams, and strong C/I ratios is the way to go but is it enough? Most of the time probably. So we engineer our links to be as resiliant as possible, but when somebody points that 4 foot dish down our throat I want a radio that will drop mod levels and cope with it, albeit at a reduced speed rather than one that only has 1 speed. I thought Trango added mod levels to their 5.8 product to help cope. Is that true or did it not get built? Merry Christmas! Mike At 03:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Wow back at ya there, Mike! grin Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of noise. Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product.
[WISPA] bits per mbps
Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs. And some are legitimately using that much data. In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it. Those at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but that's gonna be ok. They mess things up for everyone around them. Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do. For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little extra money on them. S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month. Gigs 10 through 20 at $10 per gig. Over 20, call for a price and we'll work something out that works for all of us. We really need it to naturally hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did with the first big customer. Thougths Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Brad, This is not something for which opinion has a place. There are facts here and you are asserting things about us that simply false. I personally conceived, wrote and pitched every word, idea, concept, and crossed t of the AlvarionCOMNET program. Its origination has nothing to do with your thinking. I detest conspiracy theories. I detest them even when they are about my competition. I am as transparent and direct as you will EVER hear or see from a vendor. Period. The dramatic drop in price has everything to do with architecting a program with mechanisms that significantly reduce internal overhead (we are typically not the easiest company to buy from) as well as taking a calculated risk in anticipation of improving market conditions for us among a set of customers for which I have a great deal of personal connection, respect, and interest -- WISPs. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:11 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs. We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Right on! Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. That's what I plan on using. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in the long term. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of choice. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42).
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs. And some are legitimately using that much data. In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it. Those at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but that's gonna be ok. They mess things up for everyone around them. Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do. For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little extra money on them. S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month. Gigs 10 through 20 at $10 per gig. Over 20, call for a price and we'll work something out that works for all of us. We really need it to naturally hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did with the first big customer. Thougths Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Marlon, I'll answer this with a re-post of a September post that explains, in part, why VL is not just regular CSMA: I believe most if not all of the below are features not found among Trango or Canopy. I list a few of the advanced features. A few of these (probably some you have never heard of before or even thought of) I show in detail. Maybe this post will also explain why the VL is not simply an Atheros chipset in a case and why it is not simply some basic CSMA/CA. This is just a small sampling. The manual, with lots of tables, drawings, etc., is 277 pages of which most relate to things that can be configured/optimized. (I can send the pdf to any who want it.) * Chassis-based or stand alone AUs with multiple LEDs on the chassi blade versions, including current consumption * Redundant power supplies with status LEDs, including over temperature warning * GPS-sync module (for hoppers) also can be used for VL for their alarm capabilities * 110vAC or -48vDC power options * Built-in Ethernet repeater in the chassis blades to support over 600 feet from network switch/router to ODUs * AUs with antenna options, including built-in 60, 90, or 120 degree sectors plus options with external connector * OFDM (with FEQ) for NLOS ability to enable connection of more of the potential subscriber population * Adaptive modulation with configurable minimum modulation * Up to 40Mbps net (ftp) per sector * Over 40,000pps with small packets * No loss in capacity with varying frame size (all other UL gear capacity is dramatically reduced when passing small packets * FIPS 197 option. AES standard, no extra charge * Virtual LANs based on IEEE 802.1Q with standard QinQ built-in support * Layer-2 traffic prioritization based on IEEE 802.1p and layer-3 traffic prioritization based on either IP ToS Precedence (RFC791) or DSCP (RFC2474). It also supports traffic prioritization based on UDP and/or TCP port ranges. In addition, it may use the optional Wireless Link Prioritization (WLP) feature to fully support delay sensitive applications, enabling Multimedia Application Prioritization (MAP) for high performance voice and video. (MAP can increase VoIP capacity by as much as 500%) * Built-in surge suppression in both ODU and IDU * Full management of all components, from any point in the system. * Components can be managed using standard management tools through SNMP agents that implement standard and proprietary MIBs for remote setting of operational modes and parameters. Security features incorporated in BreezeACCESS VL units restrict access for management purposes to specific IP addresses and/or directions, that is, from the Ethernet and/or wireless link. * True toll quality VoIP (MOS of 4.1 or better) * Upload new or updated configuration file to multiple (selectable) units simultaneously, thus radically reducing the time spent on unit configuration maintenance. * Back up/shadow flash, can support two different versions of firmware * 5MHz (4.9GHz version), 10MHz, or 20MHz channel options. * SUs autorecognize and configure channel size * SUs available with external connector or integrated 21dBi with 10.5h/10.5v beamwidth * Multilevel password, multi-layer ESSIDs * Configuration of remote access direction (from Ethernet only, from wireless link only or from both) * Configuration of IP addresses of authorized stations * Numerous LEDs detailing advanced status information, plus tri-color 10-bar alignment LEDs that directly corresponds to SNR, including amber for warning signal is too strong (SNR 50dB) * Pole mount or band strap mounting options, hardware included * Power supply included, with reset feature and integrated surge suppression * Specialty Cat 5 connector * Industrial grade waterproof seal with O rings * Auto or configurable maximum cell distance * Automatic distance learning. Per SU Distance Learning mechanism controlled by the AU enables each SU to adapt its Acknowledge timeout to its actual distance from the AU, minimizing delays in the wireless link * Low Priority Traffic Minimum Percent feature ensures a selectable certain amount of the traffic is reserved to low priority packets to prevent starvation of low priority traffic when there is a high demand for high priority traffic. * MAC address deny and allow list * Able to configure size of concatenated frames (enables customization/optimization based on expected applications) * Best AU and preferred AU options in the SUs. (Best AU explanation: each of the AUs can be given a quality mark based on the level at which it is received by the SU. The SU scans for a configured number of cycles, gathering information from all the AUs
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Yes, change to a speed model like everyone else (Cable, DSL, WISP) and don't worry about it any more. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs. And some are legitimately using that much data. In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it. Those at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but that's gonna be ok. They mess things up for everyone around them. Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do. For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little extra money on them. S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month. Gigs 10 through 20 at $10 per gig. Over 20, call for a price and we'll work something out that works for all of us. We really need it to naturally hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did with the first big customer. Thougths Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
- Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. OK, so, when I pay $250 per mbps that works out to how many $ per month? I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in the long term. I understand all about that. Now, lets look at this from a pragmatic standpoint. Reality rearing it's ugly head into the average business model. You say that my abusers are at 161 kbps. That means that there are 9.3 abusers per t-1. With t-1 costs around $400 on average, that means that those customers will cost me $44.44 each. JUST in bandwidth expenses. Most of our customers pay us $35 to $40 each. So, Mr. Allergic, how do you suggest a guy stay in business? grin David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to carry FOUR tools up the ladder. Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing with. If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange default username/password combos! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:43 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of choice. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. OK, so, when I pay $250 per mbps that works out to how many $ per month? Fake answer: Too many, you're getting robbed by your upstream. :) Serious answer: 1Mbps constant is about 316.4GB over 30 days. Now, lets look at this from a pragmatic standpoint. Reality rearing it's ugly head into the average business model. Dude, I just run the NOC, I don't know nothin' 'bout no numbers. :D So, Mr. Allergic, how do you suggest a guy stay in business? Y'know, my fake answer suddenly looks a lot better. :) In all seriousness, if you've got more than four or five T1s, you may want to look into a DS3. At least locally, once you get past there, a fractional (or even a full) DS3 becomes more cost-effective. If you expect to be in business for another three or five years (and who doesn't?) signing a long-term contract with your upstream can bring the price down even further. Even if you don't need all that bandwidth now, you'll probably need it in the next couple years. If you're really ambitious, you can use some of that extra bandwidth and expand into other computer-y stuff (virtual servers, colocation, Web hosting, whatever). The typical residential or small-business user pulls a lot more download than upload; you might as well use all that extra upload capacity for something. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs. At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of my costs. He needs to pay more. Or, he needs to get his service from you. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs. And some are legitimately using that much data. In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it. Those at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but that's gonna be ok. They mess things up for everyone around them. Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do. For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little extra money on them. S, my new idea is, gigs
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
- Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. OK, so, when I pay $250 per mbps that works out to how many $ per month? Fake answer: Too many, you're getting robbed by your upstream. :) Serious answer: 1Mbps constant is about 316.4GB over 30 days. Now, lets look at this from a pragmatic standpoint. Reality rearing it's ugly head into the average business model. Dude, I just run the NOC, I don't know nothin' 'bout no numbers. :D So, Mr. Allergic, how do you suggest a guy stay in business? Y'know, my fake answer suddenly looks a lot better. :) In all seriousness, if you've got more than four or five T1s, you may want to look into a DS3. At least locally, once you get past there, a fractional (or even a full) DS3 becomes more cost-effective. If you expect to be in business for another three or five years (and who doesn't?) signing a long-term contract with your upstream can bring the price down even further. Even if you don't need all that bandwidth now, you'll probably need it in the next couple years. If you're really ambitious, you can use some of that extra bandwidth and expand into other computer-y stuff (virtual servers, colocation, Web hosting, whatever). The typical residential or small-business user pulls a lot more download than upload; you might as well use all that extra upload capacity for something. Yepeprs, I could do that. But right now I have a 100 meg ethernet connection. I have home users that can do speakeasy tests of 30 megs. 15 megs upload! They pay $40 per month. I'm paying $700 per month for that ability. I could buy mbps and pay less. Probably a lot less. But then I'd also have to buy a cap in speeds. So my 30 meg customers would no longer get 30 megs. They'd get 3 or 4 or whatever $700 to $1000 would buy me. I promise it wouldn't be 100 megs. AND, that 50 gig user would STILL cost me more than he's paying me. Remember I have another $10 or more per cusotmer in labor, gas, insurance, office space etc. etc. etc. Next idea? There are more things to look at than just the bandwidth issue OR just the money issue. It's a big picture and a person has to be able to take in all of it AND understand what he's looking at. Then, we have to tweak it to fit the lifestyle we want to live and where we want to send the kids to college.. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Marlon, Sell your service based on speed... 512k = $xx, 1meg = $xx and so on... then you don't have to worry about who is transferring how much, etc. The people that hog it, just call them and say that's not permitted on our service and if they continue, cap their speed down to 256k or 128k until they cancel and go away. :) 10% of your customers will use 90% of your time. Same goes for bandwidth. ;) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs. At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of my costs. He needs to pay more. Or, he needs to get his service from you. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
But a cahing server if you can't afford the bandwidth. Seriously, your model, the old model, is about dead and buried. How much does it cost to watch a movie across the net using your system? Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Wrong answer, It should be the other way around. Because we don't bit charge, we manage our network to accomadate our users needs. I would imagine that if you were here telling your subs that they had to pay more, they would be coming this way. I'm not scared of my subs usage, I've been building out specifically for their future high usage needs. Bottom line, you need to get over the hump of not having enough subs to pay for the extra bandwidth where you can get a much better per meg rate. Get more subs! George Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to carry FOUR tools up the ladder. Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing with. If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange default username/password combos! BINGO, we found this out yesterday and hope that this is a temporary thing. Hope fully Ben is reading this.. Not a good thing to change. roflol He's reading it now! heheheheh Believe me, he got an ear full yesterday! George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
I have not had the guts to do what Marlon does. But that doesn't mean there isn't merit in his method. Part of the reason is we put in place technology that allows the use of available bandwdith with limited impact to other users, therefore taking away some of the need to charge for it, if it was jsut going unused any way. in otherwords Bandwdith allocated on a fair weighted queuing priority basis. The advatnage of Marlon's model, is he has the data to pick and chose customers. The high bandwdith hogs gets given to the competition or pay. The second a network starts reaching capacity and the market penetration doesn't, it becomes feasible to be happy not keeping all customers, instead you pick the most profitable customers. The facts are the the network supports it or it doesn't, the provider can afford to upgrade or they can't. What I'm learning is, selling 10mbps peak speeds allows you to play the Comcast game, and beat them at it. I'm selling unlimited now, but its important to track the usage. That might have to change, as people start using the links to replace their VCRs. The reality is, eventuality one will have to port limit or charge per bit. I'm jsut avoiding that day until it has to happen, so I don't lose customers for the greater good, unless I have to. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in the long term. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
How are you guys tracking usage? What program are you using to measure it and are you measureing every bit or an average? On 12/22/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have not had the guts to do what Marlon does. But that doesn't mean there isn't merit in his method. Part of the reason is we put in place technology that allows the use of available bandwdith with limited impact to other users, therefore taking away some of the need to charge for it, if it was jsut going unused any way. in otherwords Bandwdith allocated on a fair weighted queuing priority basis. The advatnage of Marlon's model, is he has the data to pick and chose customers. The high bandwdith hogs gets given to the competition or pay. The second a network starts reaching capacity and the market penetration doesn't, it becomes feasible to be happy not keeping all customers, instead you pick the most profitable customers. The facts are the the network supports it or it doesn't, the provider can afford to upgrade or they can't. What I'm learning is, selling 10mbps peak speeds allows you to play the Comcast game, and beat them at it. I'm selling unlimited now, but its important to track the usage. That might have to change, as people start using the links to replace their VCRs. The reality is, eventuality one will have to port limit or charge per bit. I'm jsut avoiding that day until it has to happen, so I don't lose customers for the greater good, unless I have to. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in the long term. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Marlon, You say most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them... In response to that reality we created a version of the VL AU for rural markets. We came to realize that the cost of a regular of VL AU where likely user counts are low simply was not economical. So we came up with the AUS. Three VL sectors using the AUS will support 75 users. An AUS (list of $2,595) has a limit of 25 attachments, but it can be upgraded if the demographics will support it; it is otherwise no different from a regular VL AU. Three AUS sectors will cost you about $6k, so about 2.4x your more modest three sector arrangement. The install will be easier, so that will make up a little (unless you don't count your time as a cost). But that will also support about 100mbps net so you can figure the math in terms of what can be delivered to subs at your chosen oversubscription. And you know it will do that at range LOS since the CPE has an integrated 21dBi MTI. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived It's much closer Patrick. That's for sure. Let run some numbers though. Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap: $450ish. Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges up to 10 miles. 1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles. Sector antenna, $400. Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and antenna. This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily. If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, battery backup, switch, cables etc. If we're lucky that'll even include backhaul. For CPE the cost is gonna be around: 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good ones from PacWireless) $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot) Misc. nuts and bolts $20. We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor. Connectorized version, $180ish 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones)) Mount, $12 Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20 Cable, $10 to $20. This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done. Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too. But I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural areas. Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them. Many are under 10. Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100. Last year we installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs. This with basically no marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition. Per customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive services. Our network now spans around 6000 square miles. It's taken over 20 sites with nearly 30 ap's to do this. Our growth potential is really good. But not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't be any more customers coming. We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear. Today we're using Trango. $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out). They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the box. Great security and flexibility. Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though. I want to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with enough growth to keep me in the program though. Even with resi. customers tossed in. If I were in Spokane, Seattle, Yakima etc. it would be a no brainer for me. The interference robustness, the scalability, the upgradeability etc. all make this a much more cut and dried decision. Especially the inference issues. I look at what we fight with out here with relatively few alien devices in the air. How guys like Forbes keep their customers running is a mystery to me. The manpower overhead has to be a killer. How do those numbers compare with a similar VL solution Help me find a way to justify the big boy toys. Trust me, the idea that I'd not need to do any work on my network appeals to me more and more with every new customer. But we're still taking care of things with 1.75 people and I spend an average of 25% to 30% of my day on these lists and other WISPA type duties so I probably really only count for a 3/4 time person. If I'd totally automate my billing, get rid of my time on the lists and forward the office calls to my cell phone I could probably do this with one person. (saving around $17,000 per year in payroll) But who wants to work that hard
Re: [WISPA] Council rejects wireless proposal
I agree that everything written in Forbes post may not be politically correct. But his intent was almost heroic. I think whats important is not the exact content of Forbes post, but the concept and purpose. We can't be afraid to tell our city councils what we think. (What ever that is, we each are individuals with our opinions) So many people JUMP because the so called rich company is comming to town to take over. We can't forget that there are advantages of being local, and locals (customers and governments) shouldn't forget it. But they do, and they need reminding. The Clearwires of the world may have funding and scale, but they don't have everything. We need to sell what we have, to our maximum advantage. The Teligents and Winstars bankruptcies proved the flaws in the over capitolized business models. And the success of the underfunded small business WISP model, speaks for itself, based on the current adoption rate of wireless subscribers accross America. If small providers want to stay in this industry, they are going to need to fight to keep that opportunity. Because there are lots of companies that are strategizing to just try and take it from us, if we let them. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:20 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Council rejects wireless proposal Forbes, My apologies if you find this offensive and my honesty may not win me any fans here, but your advice includes some dishonest assertions and your letter to your city council is, in my view, libelous regarding Clearwire, threatening to your officials, and absolutely asserts false information (you have zero frequency rights as a first-in operator) and you have less than zero rights to be protected from any users operating in their lawfully owned or leased licensed spectrum such as the WCS 2.3 GHz bands or 2.5ish GHz BRS/EBS bands. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Forbes Mercy Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 7:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Council rejects wireless proposal Hey try this, tell the tower owner that anything from 2.3 to 2.6GHZ can cause interference and point out that there is very few people there, then he isn't giving you exclusive so he doesn't jack up the rent and you just kept Clearwire out. Oh and one other thing I have studied Clearwire pretty closely and there is some steps you should take before they come. 1) contact all computer stores and set up resell agreements, tell them it's exclusive ONLY to wireless which there are hardly any in your town, that keeps Clearwire out. It's worth giving a computer store $50 for a new customer to keep Clearwire out of their place. 2) Contact the tall building owners in town and tell them that this new company Clearwire is a company in debt to the tune of a billion dollars and they will likely try to rent space from them. Tell them that if they cause interference on your network you can sue them, the building owner as well as the offending network for that interference. Both those points will normally cause them to say no thanks when Clearwire comes calling. 3) Lastly take away their support, if they are coming to your town they have already contacted the city and county officials and tried to arrange for partnerships and attendance at some huge kick off party. You need to remind officials that this is a redundant service that takes money straight from their revenue stream. Clearwire will try to get resolutions passed supporting them, they are smooth. Just for your benefit (in other words don't pass it on to Clearwire) here is the letter we sent to our civic leaders, the media and the area organizations: Dear Council Members and Media, A new wireless Internet company is coming to Yakima. They are Clearwire, an attempt by ATT Wireless inventor Craig McCaw to make a National wireless network to compete with cell phones. The difference between this business venture and the former ATT Wireless is that Clearwire is supposed to lose money for a tax write-off and then they sell it. It's not the sale price they care about, it's the tax write-off now, they are nearly one billion in debt in a very short time. The billionaires who start these businesses need huge write-offs for the huge profits they make in other businesses. They get other investors to buy in, and then spend all of their money in hopes of 'stealing' enough of competitors business by under-pricing their product. Then they can raise prices after they have local competition gone and you hooked. Sound
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hi Brad, The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is only eight conductors. When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. Happy Holidays! Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42).
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hello Albert, Can you point me to a URL describing the 586-B2 color code? I've searched for a minute or two, but so far everything comes up with the oranges and greens in the 1,2,3 and 6 pin locations. Even if there is a 568-B2 color code why use that color code when the rest of the world uses basic 568-A or 568-B? I think you know as well as I do the design of the weatherproof boot was an oversight. The design team simply took the dimension of a standard RJ45 plug and used that for their ID of the weather seal design. The oversight was the corners of the RJ45 plug are obviously beyond the ID rendering the connector unable to pass through. grin No, I don't think anyone is going to bite off that a weather seal with a 1mm larger ID is going to jeopardize the effectiveness of the seal. Pathetic attempt to cover a purely obvious design oversight...lol Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Albert Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 5:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is only eight conductors. When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. Happy Holidays! Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Well, hello Patrick and Merry Christmas! Yes, the gaul of me to insist a client gets what he pays for. Just what am I thinking! lol Bottom line is as you know the client wasn't happy with the VL product as it wasn't able to keep up with the client demands. I'm sorry that's what it came to, but consider the client really didn't care what the brand of the gear was they just wanted the circuit to work. Square peg round hole dilemma. You had the square peg and the client had a round hole. Just like when we sat around the table and discussed; there is no one product or brand that will meet every need. I know you're a company man and I applaud that, but do you really believe Alvarion makes the best product for every need? It is important to note I've always maintained Alvarion makes a quality product...never said otherwise. The issue I have with VL is it is not a committed rate business class product. The referrals you provided me have told me the same. Best effort...oh ya, it screams, but put a client that demands a committed rate plan and it just won't do it consistently in unfriendly RF environments. Your own Tech Support will confirm this. The proof is in the end result...if the VL could have done the job it would still be there doing it! Keep in mind who took the beating on this. Certainly not Alvarion. My company reputation was who took it on the chin with the doctors, not you or anyone else. Only because we have a nearly flawless reputation in the local medical industry did we even get a second chance to make it right. Try to have a Merry Christmas Patrick. Don't let a little criticism get to you so much. Instead, try listening to the critiques every so often. You might just find a couple good ideas that gasp just might improve your product. Let me give you a couple hints: (1) Dual Polarity via software (2) Dual Band (3) RX Threshold (I know, a stretch) (4) Improved weather seal that allows a RJ45 to pass through (5) Incorporate standardized 568-A or 568-B color codes More later, but I have a few too many festive Christmas Parties laced with Eggnog calling me right now. Maybe I should wrap up some Eggnog and send it your way? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of choice. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Can anyone else hear the axe grinding in the background.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 7:04 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Albert, Can you point me to a URL describing the 586-B2 color code? I've searched for a minute or two, but so far everything comes up with the oranges and greens in the 1,2,3 and 6 pin locations. Even if there is a 568-B2 color code why use that color code when the rest of the world uses basic 568-A or 568-B? I think you know as well as I do the design of the weatherproof boot was an oversight. The design team simply took the dimension of a standard RJ45 plug and used that for their ID of the weather seal design. The oversight was the corners of the RJ45 plug are obviously beyond the ID rendering the connector unable to pass through. grin No, I don't think anyone is going to bite off that a weather seal with a 1mm larger ID is going to jeopardize the effectiveness of the seal. Pathetic attempt to cover a purely obvious design oversight...lol Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Albert Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 5:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is only eight conductors. When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. Happy Holidays! Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code,
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Hi Marlon, Merry Christmas to you and your family! Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers. You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick around. Jeff -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm Size: 3K To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs. At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of my costs. He needs to pay more. Or, he needs to get his service from you. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per --- message truncated --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
HAH, yeah, I was digging rather irritatedly around the van looking for a 10 mm wrench on Monday as well... same thing. I normally do not carry metric tools out on my install rig... Early in the year, I'm going to pick up some Equinox universal mounts. Same long arm, heavy pipe... No 10 mm nuts... and a LOT less expensive. I'll split a case with ya, if you want :) Might even drive up there and stick a few needles in coax, if you want :) ok ok, I won't. :) Mark +++ neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington email me at mark at neofast dot net 541-969-8200 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to carry FOUR tools up the ladder. Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing with. If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange default username/password combos! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:43 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of choice. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Patrick... I find the 48V power thing a HUGE problem. almost every site I have now is 12V powered... +++ neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington email me at mark at neofast dot net 541-969-8200 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:09 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon, You say most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them... In response to that reality we created a version of the VL AU for rural markets. We came to realize that the cost of a regular of VL AU where likely user counts are low simply was not economical. So we came up with the AUS. Three VL sectors using the AUS will support 75 users. An AUS (list of $2,595) has a limit of 25 attachments, but it can be upgraded if the demographics will support it; it is otherwise no different from a regular VL AU. Three AUS sectors will cost you about $6k, so about 2.4x your more modest three sector arrangement. The install will be easier, so that will make up a little (unless you don't count your time as a cost). But that will also support about 100mbps net so you can figure the math in terms of what can be delivered to subs at your chosen oversubscription. And you know it will do that at range LOS since the CPE has an integrated 21dBi MTI. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived It's much closer Patrick. That's for sure. Let run some numbers though. Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap: $450ish. Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges up to 10 miles. 1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles. Sector antenna, $400. Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and antenna. This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily. If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, battery backup, switch, cables etc. If we're lucky that'll even include backhaul. For CPE the cost is gonna be around: 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good ones from PacWireless) $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot) Misc. nuts and bolts $20. We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor. Connectorized version, $180ish 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones)) Mount, $12 Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20 Cable, $10 to $20. This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done. Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too. But I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural areas. Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them. Many are under 10. Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100. Last year we installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs. This with basically no marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition. Per customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive services. Our network now spans around 6000 square miles. It's taken over 20 sites with nearly 30 ap's to do this. Our growth potential is really good. But not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't be any more customers coming. We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear. Today we're using Trango. $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out). They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the box. Great security and flexibility. Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though. I want to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with enough growth to keep me in the program though. Even with resi. customers tossed in. If I were in Spokane, Seattle, Yakima etc. it would be a no brainer for me. The interference robustness, the scalability, the upgradeability etc. all make this a much more cut and dried decision. Especially the inference issues. I look at what we fight with out here with relatively few alien devices in the air. How guys like Forbes keep their customers running is a mystery to me. The manpower overhead has to be a killer. How do those numbers compare with a similar VL solution
RE: [WISPA] Council rejects wireless proposal
Tom, what one thinks is not the same as threats, libel (in my opinion) and blatant falsehoods (e.g. being the first WISP give a right to protections). Nothing heroic about that. I would contend it is just the opposite. I cringe every time I see a WISP do something dishonest or slimy or just out of gross ignorance of the most basic of legal rules that govern use of UL frequencies as it only reinforces the perception still held in some circles that WISPs are out of control or just yahoos not to be taken seriously. Stuff like only feeds the cause of the Clearwires and actually HELPS them to succeed at your expense. That's ironic since I am aware of Clearwire actually behaving much more like the yahoo WISP perception versus exceptionally professional WISPs in the same market. I've actually helped certain WISPs successfully defend against Clearwire by using knowledge of the rules and straight up smart tactics. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Council rejects wireless proposal I agree that everything written in Forbes post may not be politically correct. But his intent was almost heroic. I think whats important is not the exact content of Forbes post, but the concept and purpose. We can't be afraid to tell our city councils what we think. (What ever that is, we each are individuals with our opinions) So many people JUMP because the so called rich company is comming to town to take over. We can't forget that there are advantages of being local, and locals (customers and governments) shouldn't forget it. But they do, and they need reminding. The Clearwires of the world may have funding and scale, but they don't have everything. We need to sell what we have, to our maximum advantage. The Teligents and Winstars bankruptcies proved the flaws in the over capitolized business models. And the success of the underfunded small business WISP model, speaks for itself, based on the current adoption rate of wireless subscribers accross America. If small providers want to stay in this industry, they are going to need to fight to keep that opportunity. Because there are lots of companies that are strategizing to just try and take it from us, if we let them. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:20 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Council rejects wireless proposal Forbes, My apologies if you find this offensive and my honesty may not win me any fans here, but your advice includes some dishonest assertions and your letter to your city council is, in my view, libelous regarding Clearwire, threatening to your officials, and absolutely asserts false information (you have zero frequency rights as a first-in operator) and you have less than zero rights to be protected from any users operating in their lawfully owned or leased licensed spectrum such as the WCS 2.3 GHz bands or 2.5ish GHz BRS/EBS bands. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Forbes Mercy Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 7:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Council rejects wireless proposal Hey try this, tell the tower owner that anything from 2.3 to 2.6GHZ can cause interference and point out that there is very few people there, then he isn't giving you exclusive so he doesn't jack up the rent and you just kept Clearwire out. Oh and one other thing I have studied Clearwire pretty closely and there is some steps you should take before they come. 1) contact all computer stores and set up resell agreements, tell them it's exclusive ONLY to wireless which there are hardly any in your town, that keeps Clearwire out. It's worth giving a computer store $50 for a new customer to keep Clearwire out of their place. 2) Contact the tall building owners in town and tell them that this new company Clearwire is a company in debt to the tune of a billion dollars and they will likely try to rent space from them. Tell them that if they cause interference on your network you can sue them, the building owner as well as the offending network for that interference. Both those points will normally cause them to say no thanks when Clearwire comes calling. 3) Lastly take away their support, if they are coming to your town they have already contacted the city and county officials and tried to arrange for partnerships and attendance at some huge kick off party. You need to remind officials that this is a redundant service that takes money straight from their revenue stream. Clearwire will try to get resolutions passed supporting them, they are smooth.
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or colocated deployment. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: Charles, Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day with all things considered. The value of consistent availability and right out of the box deployment is PRICELIST! This doesn't only save cost of installer labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition. I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck. I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being a stronger residential play. I recently have done a lot with War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, and great testing tools with things like Iperf BUILT-IN able to test Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops increase as the backbone mesh grows. Alvarion is also a great product for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots. Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new low price, is in its residential application. The difference between $185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in operations. The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is unmatched. What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in using subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time to make sure they get the best signal. With my other gear, its such a pain to get best signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do installs with employees by the hour, so their income did not deter them from doing their best job. I gladly pay $100 more for a complete ready to go product. The only thing that keeps me from going 100% Alvarion for residential is that, I already have 100 APs installed of another manufacturer, and I need to focus on revenue not re-build out. Its not just the cost to replace the AP, its the cost to replace the consumers without downtime, all at once, when there is little free spectrum left to just install a new AP. To install a new AP, and existing AP must be removed first, in many cases. From a performance/reliabilty point of view, there is nothing wrong with the gear I previously preferred to use, but from an operations and installation point of view, my operations can scale much easier using the VL. Low marging residential is where that matters most. Its important to be able to have consistent install time and meet schedules. The other day I ran out of pigtail. The other day I ran out of thin thread stand offs. The other day I ran out of J-Arms. The other day I ran out of antennas that came with mounts that support 2-3/8 pole. Everyday there is a barrier that delays operations. Sure an easy barrier to fix, but still a delay. Instead of focussing on sales, I'm focusing on making sure I have enough Gold standoffs in stock (5 cent parts). There is something to be said for what Alvarion has offered through the Commnet program, probably one of the strongest value propositions offered to date. Its going to really make the competition work. Just my 2 cents. The competitions, just better hope that Alvarion doesn't offer an AP trade-up program, to help conversion. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Jon, With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much more spectrum to work with. Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to keep it from stepping on itself. And speaking about efficiency, even the Canopy Advantage is a very inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well over 1 mile. In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to assert in fact. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or colocated deployment. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: Charles, Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day with all things considered. The value of consistent availability and right out of the box deployment is PRICELIST! This doesn't only save cost of installer labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition. I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck. I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being a stronger residential play. I recently have done a lot with War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, and great testing tools with things like Iperf BUILT-IN able to test Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops increase as the backbone mesh grows. Alvarion is also a great product for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots. Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new low price, is in its residential application. The difference between $185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in operations. The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is unmatched. What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in using subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time to make sure they get the best signal. With my other gear, its such a pain to get best signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do installs with employees by the hour, so their income did not deter them from doing their best job. I gladly pay $100 more for a complete ready to go product. The only thing that keeps me from going 100% Alvarion for residential is that, I already have 100 APs installed of another manufacturer, and I need to focus on revenue not re-build out. Its not just the cost to replace the AP, its the cost to replace the consumers without downtime, all at once, when there is little free spectrum left to just install a new AP. To install a new AP, and existing AP must be removed first, in many cases. From a performance/reliabilty point of view, there is nothing wrong with the gear I previously preferred to use, but from an operations and installation point of view, my operations can scale much easier using the VL. Low marging residential is where that matters most. Its important to be able to have consistent install time and meet schedules. The other day I ran out of pigtail. The other day I ran out of thin thread stand offs. The other day I ran out of J-Arms. The other day I ran out of antennas that came with mounts that support 2-3/8 pole. Everyday there is a
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
And I can assure you they don't leak. The secret to having your installers get 3 installs done per day is that cable. As a rule of thumb, 98% of the installs should be done in such a way that that 60ft of cable is enough to get inside to the router-If you have a guy running hundreds of feet of cable on each job they will take all day and they won't get 3 installs done. Factory terminated means I never have to worry about the installers ability to properly ground the shield on the cable on the roof. (or if he missed it). I know a lot of WISP don't even bother to use a properly shielded cable but we think it's important. It all adds up to $$$ Marty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Albert Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is only eight conductors. When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. Happy Holidays! Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
