Re: [WISPA] IS Packet limiting /was ComCast deals w/P2P
Do not take this for the Gospel since I was only able to catch bits and pieces of a few different conversations over 2 days but, I think the packet limiting ability enables you actually put a number on how many PPS any sub can send/receive and all over that limit are dropped at the router. I didn't get to ask a couple questions that I wanted to - like: 1. Is the packet limiting capable of identifying and limiting specific types of traffic (i.e. P2P) or does it cast a broad net that does a complete PPS count? 2. Can it identify and drop certain sized packets - such as small UDP packets over the count of - - say - - 700pps w/payload under 60bits (likely a Virus/Trojan) I think I will copy Jeff Broadwick on this and see if we can get him in on this for some clarification. Butch too may know since he is the people that I am well connected too as well :) Mac From: Travis Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 9:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: SPAM ? Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P Importance: Low Mac, No, I did not... can you explain more? Are you talking about throttling packets per second at the router? Travis Microserv Mac Dearman wrote: Travis, Did you sit in on Image Stream's conversations about packet limiting? I am going to have to find out a little more about that myself. Mac ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] IS Packet limiting /was ComCast deals w/P2P
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Mac Dearman wrote: 1. Is the packet limiting capable of identifying and limiting specific types of traffic (i.e. P2P) or does it cast a broad net that does a complete PPS count? It can do the limiting either way. Actually, Mac, it can limit by any combination of the following: 1. Source IP - (specific Ip, range of IPs or a specific IP GROUP) 2. Destination IP (same as above) 3. Inbound or outbound interface 4. Time of Day/Day of week 5. Type of Traffic 6. MANY MANY MORE These rules are implemented using iptables, so anything (nearly) that you can match in iptables will work as a way to limit the impact of a limit you would place. 2. Can it identify and drop certain sized packets - such as small UDP packets over the count of - - say - - 700pps w/payload under 60bits (likely a Virus/Trojan) Of course! I think I will copy Jeff Broadwick on this and see if we can get him in on this for some clarification. Butch too may know since he is the people that I am well connected too as well :) I guess you let the cat out of the bag with this one. ;-) -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
I think that the first thing I would do is post a screen capture of a speakeasy test on your web site. Put yours and theirs right there, side by side. Let the proof be in the puddin'. marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] OT Comcast email issues
Hi All, Comcast keeps blocking our mail server. They are saying that we are a customer ON their network trying to send mail via another server. Anyone else having trouble with them of late? Here's the email back from them when I tried to find out WHY they are blocking us. sigh Thank you for contacting Comcast Customer Security Assurance. We have received and reviewed your RBL removal request. Below each IP address you submitted in your request, we have included the result of our research. Please do not reply to this message. 64.146.146.8 Your request for IP block removal has been denied for the following reason: - You have been blocked from emailing the Comcast network because we have determined that you are sending email from a dynamic/residential IP within the Comcast domain. Comcast does not allow subscribers to send email from a mail server other than smtp.comcast.net. All mail should be sent through Comcast's mail server. For information on configuring your machine to use smtp.comcast.net, please follow the link below. http://www.comcast.net/help/faq/index.jsp?faq=Email117481 If you need to run your own mail server, please contact our Commercial Services organization at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sincerely, Comcast Customer Security Assurance Really helpful eh? marlon BorderBottom10.gif ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
I have seen many advertisements be sneaky. By this I mean they give real information with the intent to mislead. I take an approach of honesty in my service. If the customer doesn't understand, I will take the time to explain what they are getting. No sneaky phrases or anything. This make it hard to compete though. I have a competitor with 2.4Ghz that says this in his add you connect at 54Mps which is MUCH faster than anyone else around here. OK, we all know he is saying their connection to the tower. I happen to know that their main Internet feed is 2 T1s. Now how messed up is that? I could always launch a comeback with the don't be fooled by misleading information campaign- but I'm still amazed of the lengths that some will go. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] OT Comcast email issues
Reply back with the following: %whois 64.146.146.8 Northwest Open Access Network NOANET-BLK2 (NET-64-146-128-0-1) 64.146.128.0 - 64.146.255.255 Douglas County PUD NOANET-DCPUD-64-146-146-0-1 (NET-64-146-146-0-1) 64.146.146.0 - 64.146.146.255 Odessa Office Equipment NET-64-146-146-0-1 (NET-64-146-146-0-2) 64.146.146.0 - 64.146.146.255 # ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2007-10-21 19:10 That should clearly tell outsourced Comcast guys that this is your network. Unless NOANet has suddenly been purchased by Comcast! :) ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:13 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] OT Comcast email issues Hi All, Comcast keeps blocking our mail server. They are saying that we are a customer ON their network trying to send mail via another server. Anyone else having trouble with them of late? Here's the email back from them when I tried to find out WHY they are blocking us. sigh Thank you for contacting Comcast Customer Security Assurance. We have received and reviewed your RBL removal request. Below each IP address you submitted in your request, we have included the result of our research. Please do not reply to this message. 64.146.146.8 Your request for IP block removal has been denied for the following reason: - You have been blocked from emailing the Comcast network because we have determined that you are sending email from a dynamic/residential IP within the Comcast domain. Comcast does not allow subscribers to send email from a mail server other than smtp.comcast.net. All mail should be sent through Comcast's mail server. For information on configuring your machine to use smtp.comcast.net, please follow the link below. http://www.comcast.net/help/faq/index.jsp?faq=Email117481 If you need to run your own mail server, please contact our Commercial Services organization at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sincerely, Comcast Customer Security Assurance Really helpful eh? marlon ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] OT Comcast email issues
Marlon, It looks like they see you as a residential subscriber. Do you have allocated IP's from them, Own your own or just a couple statics that come with your bandwidth? I thought you were on a fiber connection! You ought to be able to call that number posted on the bottom of their email and get all that straightened out pretty quick since not being able to send mail through your email server is a REAL problem!! GL let us know how you get it sorted out. Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:13 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] OT Comcast email issues Hi All, Comcast keeps blocking our mail server. They are saying that we are a customer ON their network trying to send mail via another server. Anyone else having trouble with them of late? Here's the email back from them when I tried to find out WHY they are blocking us. sigh Thank you for contacting Comcast Customer Security Assurance. We have received and reviewed your RBL removal request. Below each IP address you submitted in your request, we have included the result of our research. Please do not reply to this message. 64.146.146.8 Your request for IP block removal has been denied for the following reason: - You have been blocked from emailing the Comcast network because we have determined that you are sending email from a dynamic/residential IP within the Comcast domain. Comcast does not allow subscribers to send email from a mail server other than smtp.comcast.net. All mail should be sent through Comcast's mail server. For information on configuring your machine to use smtp.comcast.net, please follow the link below. http://www.comcast.net/help/faq/index.jsp?faq=Email117481 If you need to run your own mail server, please contact our Commercial Services organization at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sincerely, Comcast Customer Security Assurance Really helpful eh? marlon ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Extra Shirts (Get them while they last)
We had a few shirts left over from the ISPCON show. The following colors/sizes are available for shipment. (1)Navy XL (2)White XL (2)Putty XL (2)Putty L (2)Black XL Please send $47 per shirt to HYPERLINK mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] and specify color, size and shipping address. I can also special order additional sizes and colors upon request. These are very nice short sleeve embroidered shirts. Maybe someone who received one at the show can attest to this claim. I still have a few more shirts to get sent out today or tomorrow. If you haven’t received yours yet, it will be arriving shortly. Respectfully, Rick Harnish No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.5/1085 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 10:35 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Advertising / who you should not have as customers.
I am honest and forward with my customers, to a fault. I tell them when I have issues at towers, with ISPs, with mistakes _I_ have made! It just seems to work better than covering up everything with crazy messed up PR. If they don't like that then they can go somewhere else. They will be back and will be less trouble when they do come back. When I started MY business, I did not want to deal with people that: 1. Can't handle reality. 2. Can't handle the fact that I can't come to the phone because my Jr. Partner wants me to play Barbie with her. (She is 4 and quite demanding) 3. That we run our business out of our house. 4. That my wife occasionally has to put a customer on hold to tell the dog to get off the couch. 5. Want the planet, complete control of my towers and CPE for $45 a month. 6. Don't understand why they can't get 54mbit out of my radios. 7. Are generally rude to me or my spouse. I have let about 3 people go after they have shown that they meet the list above. It has been better for both parties. Me, I get to let them go and my time is used on more valuable customers. Them, they get to tell everyone how good my service was compared to the other guy that won't let them out of the contract like I did. 2 of the 3 people above have already called me and asked if I can hook them up after their 2 year agreement with another WISP/large wireless BB company lets them out of their contract. The best part about being honest? Customers trust you and cut you slack when things are bad. Heck, I just got an email from a potential multi-site customer. He was referred to me by a customer that got one of my maintenance emails the maintenance email was NOT a glowing self review of my services but this potential customer was impressed by my honesty and wants to use me over the telco! I think I need more coffee... ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luke Pack Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 7:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising I have seen many advertisements be sneaky. By this I mean they give real information with the intent to mislead. I take an approach of honesty in my service. If the customer doesn't understand, I will take the time to explain what they are getting. No sneaky phrases or anything. This make it hard to compete though. I have a competitor with 2.4Ghz that says this in his add you connect at 54Mps which is MUCH faster than anyone else around here. OK, we all know he is saying their connection to the tower. I happen to know that their main Internet feed is 2 T1s. Now how messed up is that? I could always launch a comeback with the don't be fooled by misleading information campaign- but I'm still amazed of the lengths that some will go. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007
[WISPA] Extra Shirts (Get them while they last)
Payment is to be made via paypal to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I forgot to mention it in the previous email. Thanks, Rick We had a few shirts left over from the ISPCON show. The following colors/sizes are available for shipment. (1)Navy XL (2)White XL (2)Putty XL (2)Putty L (2)Black XL Please send $47 per shirt to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and specify color, size and shipping address. I can also special order additional sizes and colors upon request. These are very nice short sleeve embroidered shirts. Maybe someone who received one at the show can attest to this claim. I still have a few more shirts to get sent out today or tomorrow. If you haven't received yours yet, it will be arriving shortly. Respectfully, Rick Harnish No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.5/1085 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 10:35 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA]was Advertising now lying competition
- - they will be back. But the golden question is... When they come back, will you still be there? Larger scale WISPs may be able to absorb the temporary loss of revenue, but can the small WISPs afford to loose subscribers (for any duration)? The key is damages. For you to benefit, you have to be able to prove that their wrong doing is what hurt you, and forced your clients to leave. For example, had they offered cheaper service only and not the higher speed, maybe that still would have been enough to make them switch. Them not delivering the services they promosed to the end user is a different problem, which will result in damages getting paid to the end user, not the provider. In these situations, there is only one answer... To do everything possible to not let the customer leave in the first place. Find a way to convince them, to stay, other than speed. And why they don't need the speed anyway. You can always play the same game, offer them a price/plan match, then provision them for burst bucket bandwdith management or super low priority based queuing (burst at 10mb, sustained at 256k, and leave the 256k detail out :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:51 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA]was Advertising now lying competition Travis, If you read in their TOS or UAP you would probably find what they call a best effort clause. The truth of the matter is if your service is better and your subs are leaving for what is supposed to be a faster service - - - - they will be back. If your competitors have to resort to bald face lies in their advertising to gain subs - then they are lying in other places as well. We all know the old saying you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can never fool all the people all the time. Time will tell on these folks and I think if you are patient (that's easy for me to say - I understand) then time always tells its tales. Keep on doing what you do in delivering fast internet and great service. Those subscribers won't tarry long till they tell your competition them to come get their junk. GL, Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 3:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv --- - ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
Marlon, We already did that... with CableOne and with the WiMax competitor... however, a lot of people don't check that before they read the ad in the newspaper that says 4meg wireless for $34.95 and think they are paying too much with our service. Maybe I should start advertising up to 100meg for $39.95 and see how that goes over? :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I think that the first thing I would do is post a screen capture of a speakeasy test on your web site. Put yours and theirs right there, side by side. Let the proof be in the puddin'. marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Downtilt Calculation
I have been meaning to ask this for a while. How does everyone figure their downtilt? Do you tilt down slightly more or less than 1/2 the vertical beamwidth? No downtilt? Anything else? As a real world example: We are re-deploying a tower and are moving from an omni to sectors, we are putting up tranzeo 13 db 120 degree sectors, with 13 degrees vertical beamwidth. The height of our equipment is about 220 ft, over pretty flat terrain. With such a setup, what would you do for the downtilt? Thanks, Ryan ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Sam, The problem here is how do you define a monopoly, a The definition is of course the other provider :-) No seriously, definition of Monopoly... 1) I believe to own the title of a Monopoly, there has to be some scale involved. Anyone under 10mil annual revenue is exempt. 2) A Monopoly is someone that has an advantage that creates a unpassable barrier to entry for their competitor. Monopoly does NOT mean only/sole provider in town. A WISP could NEVER be a Monopoly, because anyone else can start a WISP in town, anyday that they like. A new entrant however, can not have the exclusive franchise that the other already has. Or the cash scale, to take all or nothing of the huge statewide market, qualifying for the rights. Nor is it viable to dig up the streets and lay new cable, and have a chance at profitabilty, with the minimal market share of the few that would initially convert. When we competed against Cox, when it came down to it, they just gave broadband away for free, until we went away, as their operations were subsidized by all the other live markets. If their market won't bear the cost for an independent ISP to offer service than the argument has been settled that the public is satisfied with the price/performance that they are receiving. Wrong, monopoloes existing is what prevents that from being true. The monopoly provider has unfair leverage that can squash the new entrant, even if a good percentage of the consumers would desire it. Its the above mentality that allows the US to be 17 place horders behind the rest of the world in Broadband. The truth is, the public will settle for less than they want, and take the best deal they can find, but that does not mean that they are satisfied. Encouraging competition is what forces providers to give more, so that eventually consumers will also get what they want and be satisfied. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:56 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P Tom DeReggi wrote: No offense taken. Its the opinions from all, that allows us to reconsider a better balanced perspective. I may have been a bit over the top on my previous statements, but none the less, I do not agree with Comcast's position on this topic. It doesn't sit right with me, and I don't think it will sit right with the consumers. Apparently, some others agree, or the News arcticle would not have been written, and caught significant media attention in other publications as well. Only time watching the situation will determine whether most consumers will agree or disagree with that type of methods. My opinion stems deep from one core principle Monopolies exclusive franchises that subsidize their broadband product should not have the same rights as independant ISPs. When someone is a Monopoly the arguement Its my network, I have the right to do what ever I want doesn't really apply, as the Monopoly network is also the primary sometimes only network to serve the majority public in an area, and therefore the people's only network in practicality. True competition does not yet exist for all consumers. These exclusive franchise rights have been extended by the county or state to the provider, and the Government works for the people. Therefore the people should have some say in what practices their monopoly provider practices. Comcast is a monopoly or as near it as a company can possibly be. One company should not be able to make the decision of what is and is not acceptable for consumers use on the Public Internet. And I consider Comcast part of the public Internet. There is an obligation by these Broadband monopolies to live by example, and deal with these topics in the absolute most ethical way. Because if they can't do it, at their volume, no one can. I am not convinced that Comcast has found the most ethical way to handle the p2p issue. I do believe they are exploring to find it, and testing the waters of what consumers feel is ethical, and everyone else will learn from it. The problem here is how do you define a monopoly, and can that definition ever change? Was I the monopoly when I was the only guy in town providing high speed? Did I lose that distinction when Qwest finally started offering DSL? Side note: Your arguement on comparing smtp tarpiting to p2p blocking does have merit, but depending on how stringent it is configured. What thresholds for max connections is acceptable to consider something an attack versus a legitimate high volume communication? And are the tarpiting rules treating different senders differently? What if Comcast's tarpit was set to allow 1 Email an hour from ISPX, and argue 2 messages an hour was abuse, would that be ethical at those thresholds? If ATT did the same thing, and
Re: [WISPA] Downtilt Calculation
Hi, I use this quite a bit... it's quick and easy: http://www.wisp-router.com/calculators/downtilt.php If it were me, I would probably set them at 2-3 degrees downtilt. Travis Microserv Ryan Langseth wrote: I have been meaning to ask this for a while. How does everyone figure their downtilt? Do you tilt down slightly more or less than 1/2 the vertical beamwidth? No downtilt? Anything else? As a real world example: We are re-deploying a tower and are moving from an omni to sectors, we are putting up tranzeo 13 db 120 degree sectors, with 13 degrees vertical beamwidth. The height of our equipment is about 220 ft, over pretty flat terrain. With such a setup, what would you do for the downtilt? Thanks, Ryan ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] RE: [WISPA Members] Extra Shirts (Get them while they last)
I will add that these are VERY VERY nice shirts! The Logo is as professional as the shirt is. These folks did a great job Rick - - be sure you tell them how pleased we are and if I can't find someone local that does this quality of work - I am going to get them to make our shirts for Maximum Access. Mac Dearman From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 10:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA Members] Extra Shirts (Get them while they last) We had a few shirts left over from the ISPCON show. The following colors/sizes are available for shipment. (1)Navy XL (2)White XL (2)Putty XL (2)Putty L (2)Black XL Please send $47 per shirt to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and specify color, size and shipping address. I can also special order additional sizes and colors upon request. These are very nice short sleeve embroidered shirts. Maybe someone who received one at the show can attest to this claim. I still have a few more shirts to get sent out today or tomorrow. If you haven't received yours yet, it will be arriving shortly. Respectfully, Rick Harnish No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.5/1085 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 10:35 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
At 9:36 AM -0500 10/22/07, Luke Pack wrote: I have seen many advertisements be sneaky. By this I mean they give real information with the intent to mislead. I take an approach of honesty in my service. If the customer doesn't understand, I will take the time to explain what they are getting. No sneaky phrases or anything. This make it hard to compete though. I have a competitor with 2.4Ghz that says this in his add you connect at 54Mps which is MUCH faster than anyone else around here. OK, we all know he is saying their connection to the tower. I happen to know that their main Internet feed is 2 T1s. Now how messed up is that? I could always launch a comeback with the don't be fooled by misleading information campaign- but I'm still amazed of the lengths that some will go. Yeah, the guy I mentioned backs his 12 mbps wireless with a dsl line at the POP. Chuck - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- --- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now. ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Down tilt Calculation
Ryan, You need to figure a couple things before you deploy the sectors: 1. Where is your customer base that you are providing located? (1 mile? 10 miles? Out to 10 miles?) Example: With your location height and antenna choices a down tilt of 3* would give you a coverage area starting at .25 miles (-3db) from the tower extending to infinity (-3db) into the horizon whereas 7* down tilt will give you coverage from .17 miles out to 4.77 miles. The main lobe of the sector would cover everything in-between. (see http://www.terabeam.com/support/calculations/downtilt-cover.php#calc to get your own data)(or Google down tilt calculators) 2. Where are your other towers located in relation to these sectors? I generally down tilt the sectors down enough to not interfere with my other towers. I have 7* down tilt and more on some of my towers due to this factor, but generally use about 3* on the majority of my sectors - - - depending on height. I think if you hit the down tilt calculators and study a few minutes you will get a good idea of how much and what direction. One fast word of advice - - be sure that you have the sector mounted EXACTLY with no down tilt. (use a torpedo level to check the attitude of your sector to insure 0* before using the markings on the sector) GL, MAC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan Langseth Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 10:52 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Downtilt Calculation I have been meaning to ask this for a while. How does everyone figure their downtilt? Do you tilt down slightly more or less than 1/2 the vertical beamwidth? No downtilt? Anything else? As a real world example: We are re-deploying a tower and are moving from an omni to sectors, we are putting up tranzeo 13 db 120 degree sectors, with 13 degrees vertical beamwidth. The height of our equipment is about 220 ft, over pretty flat terrain. With such a setup, what would you do for the downtilt? Thanks, Ryan --- - ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] RE: [WISPA Members] Extra Shirts (Get them while they last)
Mac Dearman wrote: I will add that these are VERY VERY nice shirts! The Logo is as professional as the shirt is. These folks did a great job Rick - - be sure you tell them how pleased we are and if I can't find someone local that does this quality of work - I am going to get them to make our shirts for Maximum Access. I especially liked the Black and Putty colored shirts. Very nice indeed. ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
I think there are two seperate issue here, and I may have lsot track which one was being asked about. 1) Customers leaving for services being advertised as faster and cheaper, when the competitors was just lying. 2) Advertising to attract new customers, when competitors are lying. If your service is good... #1 is much easier to solve than #2. But #2, is the harder one. Its your word against the competitor's word, and the customer has a chance of having more, if they try the competitor first. I don't like being the guy that the client comes to after the fact. Its means I loose months of revenue while the client goes through their learning curve. I'm running into this with Cellular Aircards. Atleast once a week, a business turns down my service because I refuse to waive the $250 install fee, and they go with the Aircard, for about a $30/month savings over what I would charge them monthly. Within 2 months, they usually come crawling back, asking to now buy our service, because they need more consistent better speed. What I learned is that I have not built the trust factor yet with them, so they don't believe a word I tell them during the sale process, until they learn it for them selves. What has been helping most, is developing a relationship with the prospects's IT guy. the trusted advisor. I usually find that they were part of the original decission process, that chose the aircard. I can win them all, but if I make that contact with the trusted advisor I can prevent it from happening again, for the next client that that trusted advisor might also advise for. However, I recognize that this may not work for residential, where there is no trusted advisor. But what it brings up is that maybe a different marketing plan is needed? One that sells something other than speed? One that builds trust? For example, Why buy from us... Ask your neighbor... References provided on request... satisfaction guaranteed I'm starting to learn to close sales without ever discussing the speed that is included in the sale. Cust-What speed is it? Sales- Faster than a T1 line, more than most large business use (customer of course does not know what a T1 line is) Cust-Is it faster than DSL or Cable? Sales- The true measure of speed is Latency, and our latency outperforms both Cable and DSL. Thats why you won't see a latency spec in our competitor's advertisements Cust- what plans do you offer and what should I get Sales- I suggest our default plan, it offers excellent value, faster than most ever need, and faster than most websites can deliver content. And the good thing is, if you want it faster down the road, its a phone call, and it can be done in minutes with a simple parameter change. Sales- Lets take another approach... Do you value your time?... Whats really most important? ... We believe its your sanity and peice of mind. Computers can be frustrating some times, and you shouldnt have to be a computer tech to get Broadband... Why not make this easy, and let us just take care of it for you? I can have a tech onsite next Wednesday. Would Wednesday work for you? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising Marlon, We already did that... with CableOne and with the WiMax competitor... however, a lot of people don't check that before they read the ad in the newspaper that says 4meg wireless for $34.95 and think they are paying too much with our service. Maybe I should start advertising up to 100meg for $39.95 and see how that goes over? :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I think that the first thing I would do is post a screen capture of a speakeasy test on your web site. Put yours and theirs right there, side by side. Let the proof be in the puddin'. marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
Tom DeReggi wrote: [ a nice sales pitch ] Cust-Is it faster than DSL or Cable? Sales- The true measure of speed is Latency, and our latency outperforms both Cable and DSL. Thats why you won't see a latency spec in our competitor's advertisements Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. Latency might be relevant for gamers, but otherwise, a couple hundred milliseconds between click and file starts downloading doesn't seem like it would be nearly as relevant as the time between file starts downloading and file is finished downloading, which usually has little to do with latency. (I know, TCP slow-start and so on, but if you start trying to explain THAT to an end-user you've probably gone way over their head.) David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Advertising
I lost one city deal a few years ago because a new competitor came into the city council meeting the night I thought I would sign the deal and touted that his customers would get 54 Mbps for $24.99. My challenges went unheard, all the people wanted to hear was that he was faster and cost less than we did. I don't believe that company is still in business and I decided that I wasn't particularly fond of that market anyways. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising At 9:36 AM -0500 10/22/07, Luke Pack wrote: I have seen many advertisements be sneaky. By this I mean they give real information with the intent to mislead. I take an approach of honesty in my service. If the customer doesn't understand, I will take the time to explain what they are getting. No sneaky phrases or anything. This make it hard to compete though. I have a competitor with 2.4Ghz that says this in his add you connect at 54Mps which is MUCH faster than anyone else around here. OK, we all know he is saying their connection to the tower. I happen to know that their main Internet feed is 2 T1s. Now how messed up is that? I could always launch a comeback with the don't be fooled by misleading information campaign- but I'm still amazed of the lengths that some will go. Yeah, the guy I mentioned backs his 12 mbps wireless with a dsl line at the POP. Chuck - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv -- -- ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- --- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now. ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? No, we don't advertise. All referral or direct sales. into a selling point. Note that I was using the Latency example as just one of many possible answers one could give a customer instead of the answer that they were looking for which would give the competitor the upper hand. If you give less transfer speed than the competitor, then that factor is last thing you want on the customer's mind on, as the factor to measure a provider's value. If Latency doesn;t make sense, use service. I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. First off, in true technical theory, it is my opinion, that Latency =speed, Transfer rate = capacity. Latency is the speed in which one packet goes from point A to Point B. Transfer rate is the quantity of packets that can be transfered within a specific time. Therefore the Term Speed is incorrectly used in marketing. The question that comes up is... What capacity does an end user typically need for their most common usages? MP4 Streaming Video-- only needs 400kbps. VOIP --- only need MAX of 70kbps. Web Browsing, VERY LITTLE, as most images are web optimized. In a 5mbps service, the MAJORITY of the capacity goes unused. However, High latency ALWAYS has a negative impact on feel. Most residendial or business subs don't use the Internet for primarilly Downloading. Therefore, Transfer rate rarely important. Sure if you are a IT guy -constantly downloading software drivers, or a Designer or Architec -constantly transfering CAD/Layout files, sure Transfer Rate is going to be important to you. Or if you are a kid, doing Limewire, you are going to be big on Transfer Rate. But you know what, those same kids use online games, and latency is big for the gaming. Plus Adults make their buying decissions for their Adult's needs, not their childrens. (meaning hourly wage of a kid nothing, parent on the other hand sqweezing every minute out of the day) The average person uses the Internet for other things. Have of them don't even know how to do a download. 90% of what a person does on WebSites is small data. They are on Amazon, Ebay, and that kind of stuff. Latency on the other hand, gives a feeling of immediate response. Latency helps, VPNs, Remote connectivity, better typing response, etc, etc. For residential PRICE is probably the Biggest factor. Needing technical HELP is probably the second biggest, because Paying for technical help is EXPENSIVE. But transfer rate very few can take advantage of it, based on today's typical use. PS. I recognize next generation applications such as HD TV, can easilly justify GB transfer rates to the home. But we aren't in that generation today. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising Tom DeReggi wrote: [ a nice sales pitch ] Cust-Is it faster than DSL or Cable? Sales- The true measure of speed is Latency, and our latency outperforms both Cable and DSL. Thats why you won't see a latency spec in our competitor's advertisements Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. Latency might be relevant for gamers, but otherwise, a couple hundred milliseconds between click and file starts downloading doesn't seem like it would be nearly as relevant as the time between file starts downloading and file is finished downloading, which usually has little to do with latency. (I know, TCP slow-start and so on, but if you start trying to explain THAT to an end-user you've probably gone way over their head.) David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
Here's how I explain it to a customer: A barge has a lot more bandwidth (ie, capacity) than a speedboat. But if you want to get to the other side of a river, which would you prefer? A speedboat's gonna do it a heck of a lot faster, even though its bandwidth or capacity is a lot lower. There's a lot of latency with a barge, and it moves slowly, even though it can carry a lot at one time. Chuck At 6:32 PM -0400 10/22/07, Tom DeReggi wrote: Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? No, we don't advertise. All referral or direct sales. into a selling point. Note that I was using the Latency example as just one of many possible answers one could give a customer instead of the answer that they were looking for which would give the competitor the upper hand. If you give less transfer speed than the competitor, then that factor is last thing you want on the customer's mind on, as the factor to measure a provider's value. If Latency doesn;t make sense, use service. I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. First off, in true technical theory, it is my opinion, that Latency =speed, Transfer rate = capacity. Latency is the speed in which one packet goes from point A to Point B. Transfer rate is the quantity of packets that can be transfered within a specific time. Therefore the Term Speed is incorrectly used in marketing. The question that comes up is... What capacity does an end user typically need for their most common usages? MP4 Streaming Video-- only needs 400kbps. VOIP --- only need MAX of 70kbps. Web Browsing, VERY LITTLE, as most images are web optimized. In a 5mbps service, the MAJORITY of the capacity goes unused. However, High latency ALWAYS has a negative impact on feel. Most residendial or business subs don't use the Internet for primarilly Downloading. Therefore, Transfer rate rarely important. Sure if you are a IT guy -constantly downloading software drivers, or a Designer or Architec -constantly transfering CAD/Layout files, sure Transfer Rate is going to be important to you. Or if you are a kid, doing Limewire, you are going to be big on Transfer Rate. But you know what, those same kids use online games, and latency is big for the gaming. Plus Adults make their buying decissions for their Adult's needs, not their childrens. (meaning hourly wage of a kid nothing, parent on the other hand sqweezing every minute out of the day) The average person uses the Internet for other things. Have of them don't even know how to do a download. 90% of what a person does on WebSites is small data. They are on Amazon, Ebay, and that kind of stuff. Latency on the other hand, gives a feeling of immediate response. Latency helps, VPNs, Remote connectivity, better typing response, etc, etc. For residential PRICE is probably the Biggest factor. Needing technical HELP is probably the second biggest, because Paying for technical help is EXPENSIVE. But transfer rate very few can take advantage of it, based on today's typical use. PS. I recognize next generation applications such as HD TV, can easilly justify GB transfer rates to the home. But we aren't in that generation today. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising Tom DeReggi wrote: [ a nice sales pitch ] Cust-Is it faster than DSL or Cable? Sales- The true measure of speed is Latency, and our latency outperforms both Cable and DSL. Thats why you won't see a latency spec in our competitor's advertisements Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. Latency might be relevant for gamers, but otherwise, a couple hundred milliseconds between click and file starts downloading doesn't seem like it would be nearly as relevant as the time between file starts downloading and file is finished downloading, which usually has little to do with latency. (I know, TCP slow-start and so on, but if you start trying to explain THAT to an end-user you've probably gone way over their head.) David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
[WISPA] WISPA Homepage Article
HYPERLINK http://www.wispa.org/?p=129Travis Johnson and Microserv Technologies awarded 2007 WISPA Best WISP Operator Award Recently WISPA held its biannual reception at the ISPCON conference in San Jose, California. The highlight of this reception was the announcement of the winner of the Best WISP Operator Award. This year’s selection was Travis Johnson of Microserv Technologies in Idaho Falls, Idaho. WISPA President Matt Larsen awarded Travis with a plaque and commended him on his dedication and fine service to the industry and his customers. Last year, Mac Dearman won the first award. In the photo below, Mac is shown congratulating Travis on the award. Microserv began as a dial-up ISP in 1994 in Idaho Falls, Idaho, population 45,000. In our region, phone calls only 15 miles away from our main POP were considered long-distance, so we began installing small, local dial-up POPs to cover these areas. In 1997, we discovered the magic of wireless internet. We began by using Lucent Wavelan 900mhz ISA cards installed in PC’s running a DOS based routing program. The service was sold as “up to T1 speed” and was easily sold to businesses that were paying four times as much for their T1. Our next wireless path began by using Lucent Orinoco PCMCIA cards installed in ISA adapters. These used 2.4ghz and were able to deliver up to 5Mbps of bandwidth. We began growing our wireless footprint to include more and more areas, based on getting access to more and more towers. At this point we had hundreds of wireless customers, but were beginning to run out of spectrum. It was around 2001 when we heard of a new wireless company called Sunstream Wireless. They were beta testing a new 5.8ghz product that would deliver 10Mbps at the AP and to each customer. We quickly became a beta tester and began installing radios. The company was then forced to change their name, so they went back to their parent company name of Trango. We continued to grow and expand using Trango products. We currently have 900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.3ghz and 5.8ghz Trango products. Our network now consists of 65 wireless towers with over 150 AP’s. All of our towers are backhauled to our main NOC in Idaho Falls using point to point radios using 5.3ghz, 5.8ghz, 18ghz (licensed) and 38ghz. We cover from the Utah border to Island Park, Idaho (200 miles north to south) and from Arco, Idaho to Jackson Hole, Wyoming (150 miles east to west). Microserv now consists of 25 employees. We provide wireless, DSL and fiber internet access along with web hosting, PC repair and on-site network support. We are a small company and every employee is valued. Our strength is our customer service and local support. We are locally owned and operated with no outside influence or investors. We enjoy living in our small community and look forward to providing the best internet service available. WISPA is a 501c6 Not-For-Profit Trade Association representing wireless Internet providers in the US and other countries. The association lobbies the FCC, Federal Government and State Governments for positive influences on wireless industry regulation. The association is owned by its membership and is governed by an elected Board of Directors. WISPA also held a raffle of many vendor donated items at the reception. The raffle was very well received and obtained much needed recognition for the vendor contributors. Membership in WISPA can be achieved by going to http://signup.wispa.org and filling out the form. A representative of WISPA will contact each potential member to verify information and discuss which membership level is appropriate and what you think WISPA can do for you. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.5/1085 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 10:35 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
