[WISPA] S.F. nears WiFi deal

2006-12-01 Thread Dawn DiPietro

S.F. nears WiFi deal
By Sarah Jane Tribble
Mercury News

San Francisco's wait for citywide wireless is nearing an end, a city 
official said Thursday.


Chris Vein, director of the city's technology office, said he expects 
contract negotiations with the joint Google and Earthlink team that was 
awarded the nearly 50-square-mile project will end within the month. The 
city's board of supervisors should begin reviewing the contract in 
January and, if approved, installation will begin next year, he said.


``Certainly, this is taking a little longer than I had hoped,'' Vein 
said while speaking on a panel at the IEEE Globecom telecommunications 
conference held at the Fairmont Hotel this week. While not giving away 
details about the negotiations, Vein warned other communities to 
``expect the unexpected'' when building a network.


Under the proposal, EarthLink -- one of the nation's largest Internet 
service providers -- will build and maintain the wireless network. 
Google plans to buy bandwith from Earthlink and then offer a free 
wireless service to residents.


Data transfer speeds for free access would hover around 300 kilobits per 
second, slower than most DSL connections but faster than dial-up. 
EarthLink also will sell a service for about $20 a month that would run 
at 1 megabit per second.


After a lengthy bid process, San Francisco officials awarded the 
contract to the Google and Earthlink team about six months ago. 
Negotiations have centered on the levels of service that will be offered 
as well as public policy issues such as ensuring all residents have 
access to the network, an Earthlink official said.


On Thursday, Earthlink's municipal network executive Cole Reinwand said 
the two sides planned to continue negotiations into today. Reinwand, who 
also oversees Earthlink's other wireless deployments, said he was 
missing the Philadelphia launch party Thursday night to talk with San 
Francisco officials.


``We are anxious to get this done,'' he said during a brief interview 
before Vein interrupted and asked him to hurry to negotiations.


San Francisco's project has been estimated to cost $6 million to $7 
million to install, and $15 million for maintenance, billing and 
upgrades over the next 10 years. EarthLink would install about 1,500 
radio transmitters -- made by Tropos Networks in Sunnyvale -- atop light 
poles across the city.


A Google spokeswoman said the company is not leading the negotiations 
and has not participated in all the meetings. Still, Google is 
``hopeful'' negotiations will end soon.


Google, which launched a free wireless network in Mountain View in 
August, participates in these projects to learn about wireless and how 
people use it, Google product manager Larry Alder said during a 
conference presentation.


While Alder said he wasn't ``authorized'' to say how many people are 
using Mountain View's free network, he said the numbers far surpass 
anything the company expected.

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[WISPA] HIPAA Problem Gets Worse

2006-12-01 Thread John Scrivner
I need your help! It looks like I am going to have to go over the head 
of the IT guy at the area hospitals. According to the person I am 
speaking with I cannot even get a phone call returned from him to talk 
about the issues regarding wireless broadband delivery and HIPAA. The 
say flat out no use of wireless for connectivity to area health care 
centers.


Can some of you please send me some success stories offlist where you 
installed connections to health care facilities for them to use as their 
intranet connections? Any references to working with their IT people to 
deliver a solution that met HIPAA guidelines would be nice. Once I get 
some of those success stories I will request a meeting with the CEO of 
the hospital who is a friend of mine and can help us get this done.

Thanks guys,
Scriv

PS. Offlist your success stories to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WISPA] S.F. nears WiFi deal

2006-12-01 Thread Tom DeReggi

Wouldn't it be nice to get paid $4000 per AP install?
Expecially when the average cost of a WARboard and custom MESH software is 
less than $400 a unit, and can get installed in less than 4 hours.

And then on top of it, get another 1.5million a year, to pay your staff?

I don't know if its Earthlink or SanFrancisco that's footing the bill, but 
to the life of me, I can't understand while these companies are justifing 
using infalted priced name brand gear on these projects.  Unless of course, 
its just FUD, quoting retail value to the governement, and not the REAL 
price they are getting the gear for.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:45 AM
Subject: [WISPA] S.F. nears WiFi deal



S.F. nears WiFi deal
By Sarah Jane Tribble
Mercury News

San Francisco's wait for citywide wireless is nearing an end, a city 
official said Thursday.


Chris Vein, director of the city's technology office, said he expects 
contract negotiations with the joint Google and Earthlink team that was 
awarded the nearly 50-square-mile project will end within the month. The 
city's board of supervisors should begin reviewing the contract in January 
and, if approved, installation will begin next year, he said.


``Certainly, this is taking a little longer than I had hoped,'' Vein said 
while speaking on a panel at the IEEE Globecom telecommunications 
conference held at the Fairmont Hotel this week. While not giving away 
details about the negotiations, Vein warned other communities to ``expect 
the unexpected'' when building a network.


Under the proposal, EarthLink -- one of the nation's largest Internet 
service providers -- will build and maintain the wireless network. Google 
plans to buy bandwith from Earthlink and then offer a free wireless 
service to residents.


Data transfer speeds for free access would hover around 300 kilobits per 
second, slower than most DSL connections but faster than dial-up. 
EarthLink also will sell a service for about $20 a month that would run at 
1 megabit per second.


After a lengthy bid process, San Francisco officials awarded the contract 
to the Google and Earthlink team about six months ago. Negotiations have 
centered on the levels of service that will be offered as well as public 
policy issues such as ensuring all residents have access to the network, 
an Earthlink official said.


On Thursday, Earthlink's municipal network executive Cole Reinwand said 
the two sides planned to continue negotiations into today. Reinwand, who 
also oversees Earthlink's other wireless deployments, said he was missing 
the Philadelphia launch party Thursday night to talk with San Francisco 
officials.


``We are anxious to get this done,'' he said during a brief interview 
before Vein interrupted and asked him to hurry to negotiations.


San Francisco's project has been estimated to cost $6 million to $7 
million to install, and $15 million for maintenance, billing and upgrades 
over the next 10 years. EarthLink would install about 1,500 radio 
transmitters -- made by Tropos Networks in Sunnyvale -- atop light poles 
across the city.


A Google spokeswoman said the company is not leading the negotiations and 
has not participated in all the meetings. Still, Google is ``hopeful'' 
negotiations will end soon.


Google, which launched a free wireless network in Mountain View in August, 
participates in these projects to learn about wireless and how people use 
it, Google product manager Larry Alder said during a conference 
presentation.


While Alder said he wasn't ``authorized'' to say how many people are using 
Mountain View's free network, he said the numbers far surpass anything the 
company expected.

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[WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Tim Kerns
I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for keeping 
copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to maintain a copy for 
use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone know of this or have more info 
on it? Is it every ISP or only Corporations. This could be disasterious. 
sell alot of storage devices... The Foxnews report says the requirement 
begins today and as usual not a lot of detail.


Tim Kerns
CV-Access, Inc.

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Re: [WISPA] HIPAA Problem Gets Worse

2006-12-01 Thread Pete Davis
The local hospital in town, that is also the employer of my two 
partners, has a Cisco wireless system in place, and has had since before 
we were in business. SSID is turned on, DHCP is turned off, and 
encryption is turned on. (WEP 128bit I think)
Recently, they went through an audit by an independent security agency, 
and while they did find some problems with insecure user passwords, the 
wireless lan was found to be fully HIPPA safe. Doctors use the wireless 
on their laptops to do their thing in the hospital, and it all seems to 
work fine.


Pete Davis
NoDial.net



John Scrivner wrote:
I need your help! It looks like I am going to have to go over the head 
of the IT guy at the area hospitals. According to the person I am 
speaking with I cannot even get a phone call returned from him to talk 
about the issues regarding wireless broadband delivery and HIPAA. The 
say flat out no use of wireless for connectivity to area health care 
centers.


Can some of you please send me some success stories offlist where you 
installed connections to health care facilities for them to use as their 
intranet connections? Any references to working with their IT people to 
deliver a solution that met HIPAA guidelines would be nice. Once I get 
some of those success stories I will request a meeting with the CEO of 
the hospital who is a friend of mine and can help us get this done.

Thanks guys,
Scriv

PS. Offlist your success stories to [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Blair Davis
We are common carriers.  We no more have to copy peoples e-mail than the 
phone company has to record the contents of every call.


Tim Kerns wrote:

I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for 
keeping copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to maintain 
a copy for use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone know of this 
or have more info on it? Is it every ISP or only Corporations. This 
could be disasterious. sell alot of storage devices... The Foxnews 
report says the requirement begins today and as usual not a lot of 
detail.


Tim Kerns
CV-Access, Inc.




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Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC

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[WISPA] Governor Schwarzenegger Announces Appointments to the Broadband Task Force

2006-12-01 Thread Dawn DiPietro

Governor Schwarzenegger Announces Appointments to the Broadband Task Force
Nov 30, 2006 News Release
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger today announced appointments to the 
Broadband Task Force. The Broadband Task Force will bring together 
public and private stakeholders to remove barriers to broadband access, 
identify opportunities for increased broadband adoption and enable the 
creation and deployment of new advanced communication technologies. In 
October, the Governor signed an Executive Order to clear the government 
red tape for expanding broadband networks and to create the Broadband 
Task Force, which was expanded to 21 members earlier this month.


California is number one in so many different things, whether it is 
biotechnology, stem cell research, protecting our environment, creating 
jobs or our university system. The Golden State must remain competitive 
in the telecommunication revolution so that we can continue to attract 
the best, the brightest and the most creative workforce in the world, 
said Governor Schwarzenegger. Broadband will help build California so 
we can grow our economy, create great jobs and stay ahead in the global 
marketplace.


Ellis Berns, Rachelle Chong, William Geppert, Charles Giancarlo, Paul 
Hernandez, William Huber, Christine Kehoe, Wendy Lazarus, Lloyd Levine, 
Michael Liang, Bryan Martin, Timothy McCallion, Sunne Wright McPeak, 
Milo Medin, Peter Pardee, Peter Pennekamp, Debra Richardson, Rollin 
Richmond, Larry Smarr, Jonathan Taplin and Emy Tseng have all been 
appointed to the Boradband Board.



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[WISPA] bare conduits

2006-12-01 Thread chris cooper
Im looking at a project that requires connectivity between multiple
buildings on the same campus.  There are 4 conduits connecting each
facility.  The conduits are bare, Id like to run fiber in them, and
there are no pull cords in them.  Some are several hundred yards long.
Ive heard that you can blow a cable through a conduit.  Can anyone
enlighten me on equipment/technique for this application?

 

Thanks

Chris

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Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Tim Kerns
As a common carrier I can understand and agree. What about providing E-mail 
services to our customers, do we then need to keep copies of all e-mail that 
comes into or goes out our server?


Tim Kerns

- Original Message - 
From: Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?


We are common carriers.  We no more have to copy peoples e-mail than the 
phone company has to record the contents of every call.


Tim Kerns wrote:

I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for keeping 
copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to maintain a copy for 
use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone know of this or have more 
info on it? Is it every ISP or only Corporations. This could be 
disasterious. sell alot of storage devices... The Foxnews report says 
the requirement begins today and as usual not a lot of detail.


Tim Kerns
CV-Access, Inc.




--
Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC

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Re: [WISPA] bare conduits

2006-12-01 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, chris cooper wrote:

Im looking at a project that requires connectivity between multiple 
buildings on the same campus.  There are 4 conduits connecting 
each facility.  The conduits are bare, Id like to run fiber in 
them, and there are no pull cords in them.  Some are several 
hundred yards long. Ive heard that you can blow a cable through a 
conduit.  Can anyone enlighten me on equipment/technique for this 
application?


If the conduit is dry, you can sometimes use a vacuum on one end and 
it will pull a small string through.  You may, also, try to use a 
pull ribbon.  When you do get something in there, be sure to pull 
through another ribbon/string to use to pull with next time.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Matt Liotta
I find it interesting that people are stating their organizations are 
common carriers. The term common carrier has a very specific legal 
meaning. Specifically, a common carrier is an entity licensed by the FCC 
or a state agency to supply local and/or long distance 
telecommunications services to the general public at established and 
stated rates.


How many WISPs fit the above definition?

-Matt

Tim Kerns wrote:
As a common carrier I can understand and agree. What about providing 
E-mail services to our customers, do we then need to keep copies of 
all e-mail that comes into or goes out our server?


Tim Kerns

- Original Message - From: Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?


We are common carriers.  We no more have to copy peoples e-mail than 
the phone company has to record the contents of every call.


Tim Kerns wrote:

I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for 
keeping copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to 
maintain a copy for use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone 
know of this or have more info on it? Is it every ISP or only 
Corporations. This could be disasterious. sell alot of storage 
devices... The Foxnews report says the requirement begins today and 
as usual not a lot of detail.


Tim Kerns
CV-Access, Inc.




--
Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC

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Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Mark Del Bianco
Tim-

It's an amendment to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and it governs what a 
company that's sued has to do to comply with discovery requests.  It doesn't 
single out WISPs or carriers.  Here's a good explanation: 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/01/AR2006120100233.html

Mark C. Del Bianco 
Law Office of Mark Del Bianco 
3929 Washington St.  Kensington, MD 20895 
301-933-7216 

Communications Law for the Digital Age 
 
Tim Kerns [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a common carrier I can understand and 
agree. What about providing E-mail 
services to our customers, do we then need to keep copies of all e-mail that 
comes into or goes out our server?

Tim Kerns

- Original Message - 
From: Blair Davis 
To: WISPA General List 
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?


 We are common carriers.  We no more have to copy peoples e-mail than the 
 phone company has to record the contents of every call.

 Tim Kerns wrote:

 I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for keeping 
 copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to maintain a copy for 
 use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone know of this or have more 
 info on it? Is it every ISP or only Corporations. This could be 
 disasterious. sell alot of storage devices... The Foxnews report says 
 the requirement begins today and as usual not a lot of detail.

 Tim Kerns
 CV-Access, Inc.



 -- 
 Blair Davis

 AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

 West Michigan Wireless ISP
 269-686-8648

 A division of:
 Camp Communication Services, INC

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Mark C. Del Bianco 
Law Office of Mark Del Bianco 
3929 Washington St. 
Kensington, MD 20895 
301-933-7216 

Communications Law for the Digital Age 
 
 
This e-mail and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the named 
addressee(s) and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential 
information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are 
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, 
and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you receive this email 
in error, please immediately notify me at (301) 933-7216 and permanently delete 
the original copy and any copy of any e-mail, and any printout thereof.
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RE: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
I'm going to look into this, but current law ALREADY requires ISPs to
retain records of e-mail traffic and Web searches for 90 days. This was
per an amendment to the 1986 Stored Communications Act.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Kerns
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:30 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for keeping

copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to maintain a copy
for 
use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone know of this or have more
info 
on it? Is it every ISP or only Corporations. This could be
disasterious. 
sell alot of storage devices... The Foxnews report says the requirement 
begins today and as usual not a lot of detail.

Tim Kerns
CV-Access, Inc.

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RE: [WISPA] bare conduits

2006-12-01 Thread Rick Smith
get a shop vac.

get a box of pull string or a long enough piece of lightweight string.

get a tennis ball (or whiffle ball) and tie the string to it.

Turn on shop vac.

Suck the ball through. 

Don't laugh.  It'll work!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 4:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bare conduits

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, chris cooper wrote:

Im looking at a project that requires connectivity between multiple 
buildings on the same campus.  There are 4 conduits connecting each 
facility.  The conduits are bare, Id like to run fiber in them, and 
there are no pull cords in them.  Some are several hundred yards long. 
Ive heard that you can blow a cable through a conduit.  Can anyone 
enlighten me on equipment/technique for this application?

If the conduit is dry, you can sometimes use a vacuum on one end and it will
pull a small string through.  You may, also, try to use a pull ribbon.  When
you do get something in there, be sure to pull through another ribbon/string
to use to pull with next time.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Frank Muto
To dispel the FUD about this, the law is dealing with the 2006 Amendments to 
the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure addressing discovery of electronically 
stored information. Link to pdf http://tinyurl.com/htarf review. 

Secondly, if you are presented with a properly written subpoena, you do have 
rules to live by, e.g., Electronic Communications Privacy Act or 1986. 



Frank Muto
President/CEO
FSM Marketing Group, Inc




- Original Message - 
From: Tim Kerns [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?


 As a common carrier I can understand and agree. What about providing E-mail 
 services to our customers, do we then need to keep copies of all e-mail that 
 comes into or goes out our server?
 
 Tim Kerns
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:45 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?
 
 
 We are common carriers.  We no more have to copy peoples e-mail than the 
 phone company has to record the contents of every call.

 Tim Kerns wrote:

 I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for keeping 
 copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to maintain a copy for 
 use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone know of this or have more 
 info on it? Is it every ISP or only Corporations. This could be 
 disasterious. sell alot of storage devices... The Foxnews report says 
 the requirement begins today and as usual not a lot of detail.

 Tim Kerns
 CV-Access, Inc.



 -- 
 Blair Davis

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RE: [WISPA] bare conduits

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
Chris,

First, if there is an open 4 conduit, you'd never want to run a cable
by itself --that'd be considered a major waste of the conduit investment
in place. Instead, the proper thing would be to install 3 to 4 PVC
innerducts. These are generally about 1.5 OD and can be ordered with
pull string. 

You can also install innerduct without string, then blow string in or
use long fish tape or fiber glass router to thread the duct. Blowing
requires a little tool, but one can be fashioned with a good shop vac.
You'll need a mouse, which is a foam and plastic piece with an eye to
thread a lightweight line. Blow or suck the mouse through with the line
attached, then use the light line to pull in the heavier pull string or
rope. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of chris cooper
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:25 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] bare conduits

Im looking at a project that requires connectivity between multiple
buildings on the same campus.  There are 4 conduits connecting each
facility.  The conduits are bare, Id like to run fiber in them, and
there are no pull cords in them.  Some are several hundred yards long.
Ive heard that you can blow a cable through a conduit.  Can anyone
enlighten me on equipment/technique for this application?

 

Thanks

Chris

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RE: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Rick Smith
and you have to do NOTHING until you get a subpoena to do so.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

We are common carriers.  We no more have to copy peoples e-mail than the
phone company has to record the contents of every call.

Tim Kerns wrote:

 I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for 
 keeping copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to maintain 
 a copy for use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone know of this 
 or have more info on it? Is it every ISP or only Corporations. This 
 could be disasterious. sell alot of storage devices... The Foxnews 
 report says the requirement begins today and as usual not a lot of 
 detail.

 Tim Kerns
 CV-Access, Inc.



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Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC

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[WISPA] common carriage

2006-12-01 Thread Peter R.
The common carrier concept was established in the 1934 Communications 
Act, which is the act that formed the basis of the Federal 
Communications Commission.


The concept of a common carrier is not exclusive to the 
telecommunications industry. It is a legal and social concept that dates 
back centuries. It was developed to ensure that the public retained 
access to fundamental services that use public rights of way.


http://www.cybertelecom.org/notes/common_carrier.htm

By definition, a common carrier is not responsible for the content or 
goods that it carries. (under the DMCA)


Title II defines common carrier as A company that provides 
telecommunications services, as by telephone or satellite, to the public.


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Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Blair Davis

I'll drop e-mail services before I'll do that.  I am not a cop.

Tim Kerns wrote:

As a common carrier I can understand and agree. What about providing 
E-mail services to our customers, do we then need to keep copies of 
all e-mail that comes into or goes out our server?


Tim Kerns

- Original Message - From: Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?


We are common carriers.  We no more have to copy peoples e-mail than 
the phone company has to record the contents of every call.


Tim Kerns wrote:

I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for 
keeping copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to 
maintain a copy for use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone 
know of this or have more info on it? Is it every ISP or only 
Corporations. This could be disasterious. sell alot of storage 
devices... The Foxnews report says the requirement begins today and 
as usual not a lot of detail.


Tim Kerns
CV-Access, Inc.




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Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC

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Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC


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Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Blair Davis
Common carrier refers to things other than Telecom.  Trucking companies, 
bus lines, rail transport, air lines to name some.


The common denominator seems to be providing transport for data, product 
or people that is for general, public hire at established rates.  I'm 
sure there is more to this definition, but this seems to be a good, 
working definition.


I'm not a lawyer.

A more interesting question is this:

 If you are a Telco, and you offer voice mail services to your 
customers, do you have the right or an obligation to archive their voice 
messages without their knowledge and consent, absent a court order to do so?


Matt Liotta wrote:

I find it interesting that people are stating their organizations are 
common carriers. The term common carrier has a very specific legal 
meaning. Specifically, a common carrier is an entity licensed by the 
FCC or a state agency to supply local and/or long distance 
telecommunications services to the general public at established and 
stated rates.


How many WISPs fit the above definition?

-Matt

Tim Kerns wrote:

As a common carrier I can understand and agree. What about providing 
E-mail services to our customers, do we then need to keep copies of 
all e-mail that comes into or goes out our server?


Tim Kerns

- Original Message - From: Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?


We are common carriers.  We no more have to copy peoples e-mail than 
the phone company has to record the contents of every call.


Tim Kerns wrote:

I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for 
keeping copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to 
maintain a copy for use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone 
know of this or have more info on it? Is it every ISP or only 
Corporations. This could be disasterious. sell alot of storage 
devices... The Foxnews report says the requirement begins today and 
as usual not a lot of detail.


Tim Kerns
CV-Access, Inc.




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Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC

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Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC

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Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Frank Muto
Here is a link which provides an overview of the ECPA from the DOJ and a 
handy reference to keep on hand.

http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/ssmanual2002.htm#_IIID1_

We are going through some personal and business issues regarding such issues 
relating to electronic storage.



Frank Muto
President/CEO
FSM Marketing Group, Inc






- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:53 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?



I'm going to look into this, but current law ALREADY requires ISPs to
retain records of e-mail traffic and Web searches for 90 days. This was
per an amendment to the 1986 Stored Communications Act.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Kerns
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:30 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for keeping

copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to maintain a copy
for
use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone know of this or have more
info
on it? Is it every ISP or only Corporations. This could be
disasterious.
sell alot of storage devices... The Foxnews report says the requirement
begins today and as usual not a lot of detail.

Tim Kerns
CV-Access, Inc.


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[WISPA] Tranzeo CPU speed

2006-12-01 Thread Tom DeReggi

Anyone know what speed CPU is running the Tranzeo 900 radios?
Just wondering if it has the power to get full throughput from RF  ETH2 
combined to ETH1.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org; 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?

What kind of pricing per CPE

I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a
rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112

Anyone see anything different ?

R

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Re: [WISPA] bare conduits

2006-12-01 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

Used to do this all the time when I was a linesman.

The easiest and safest way to do this is to use a vacuum on one end.  Tie a 
parachute or streamer to a string and put that in the pipe while someone's 
sucking on the other end.  Make sure you hold the twine with a screwdriver 
and not your fingers cause it'll usually go pretty fast.


Now, if that won't work, this will.  Same thing on the string part but use a 
jackhammer type air compressor.  You'll put your parachute/streamer in the 
conduit, then wrap a rag around an air hose.  Put that assembly into the 
pipe but make sure that it's not binding where the string goes in.  Then 
have someone else hold the string and yet another run the air compressor. 
Be VERY careful with this method.  Things (sometimes very nasty things) come 
flying out the other end at a VERY high rate of speed.  I learned the hard 
way that you don't want to be the guy standing in the manhole when things 
start moving.


Have fun, be super careful.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: chris cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:24 AM
Subject: [WISPA] bare conduits



Im looking at a project that requires connectivity between multiple
buildings on the same campus.  There are 4 conduits connecting each
facility.  The conduits are bare, Id like to run fiber in them, and
there are no pull cords in them.  Some are several hundred yards long.
Ive heard that you can blow a cable through a conduit.  Can anyone
enlighten me on equipment/technique for this application?



Thanks

Chris

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Tom DeReggi

Frank at Pasadena Networks has stock and good pricing on the SR9s.
And yes we are paying $350-$389 for the gear based on quantity.

Which is still the lowest cost 900SU solution so far, every thing included.

I don't believe anybody has broke the $300 barrier except on large quantity.
If they have on less than Qty10 orders, I'd like to know about it to.

The good news, is there has never been better 900 competition to drive the 
price down.


Teletronics is comming out with their new 900 product in just a few weeks. 
But pricing has not been released yet.
I'm really eagerly waiting to see what's delivered, since they are only 5 
miles away from me, and buying from them would be like having my own local 
warehouse :-)


Tranzeo, has a very strong product as well that has been shipping. I heard 
there is a lot of politics behind the Tranzeo product that came out, but 
regardless they offer a feature rich unit, all in one package.  Allowing 
consolidation of all the shipping costs to one vendor, instead of from all 
the different vendors necessary to get a unit made. I'm finding it rare that 
one vendor has stock of all the needed components at the same time, at the 
right price.


Trango and Canopy are going neck and neck on their CPE to drive the price 
down. But they are still more than I'd like to see on small quantity.


WaveIP, AirSpan, WaveRider, and there is one or two more that I'm missing.

I guess what I'm saying is its getting to be an exciting time for 900Mhz 
options.  And I'm hoping this competitive pressure will get 900 down to the 
price it needs to be to tackle served residential neighborhoods, like the 
5.8Ghz has.


We are finding that for most of the OEM 900 product though, best case speed 
gets close to 1mbps on a 5mhz channel.
So Trango, is still our dominent choice, from towers,m where we do not need 
the flexibility and low cost of relaying.


My understanding is that the Tranzeo's are dual Ethernet ready to POE feed 
your Trango backhaul, with no customization of cases.  But we have not tried 
it yet.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org; 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?

What kind of pricing per CPE

I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a
rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112

Anyone see anything different ?

R

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Tom DeReggi
Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus International 
Shipping charges (if in US).



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients



http://www.star-v3.com/store/

$262 ea in ten packs + roo.

Rick Smith wrote:

Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
 What kind of pricing per CPE
 I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for 
a

rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
 Anyone see anything different ?
 R


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[WISPA] FW: Don't be a Virtual Shredder

2006-12-01 Thread Cliff Leboeuf

Subject: Don't be a Virtual Shredder

Under the new rules, an information technology employee who routinely copies
over a backup computer tape could be committing virtual shredding once a
lawsuit has been filed, said Alvin F. Lindsay, a partner at Hogan  Hartson
LLP and expert on technology and litigation.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061201/ap_on_hi_te/storing_emails_2
 
 

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International 
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for 
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

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computer viruses(190).







 
 


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PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals 
computer viruses(43).











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[WISPA] Governor Schwarzenegger Announces Appointments to the Broadband Task Force

2006-12-01 Thread Dawn DiPietro

Governor Schwarzenegger Announces Appointments to the Broadband Task Force
Nov 30, 2006 News Release
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger today announced appointments to the 
Broadband Task Force. The Broadband Task Force will bring together 
public and private stakeholders to remove barriers to broadband access, 
identify opportunities for increased broadband adoption and enable the 
creation and deployment of new advanced communication technologies. In 
October, the Governor signed an Executive Order to clear the government 
red tape for expanding broadband networks and to create the Broadband 
Task Force, which was expanded to 21 members earlier this month.


California is number one in so many different things, whether it is 
biotechnology, stem cell research, protecting our environment, creating 
jobs or our university system. The Golden State must remain competitive 
in the telecommunication revolution so that we can continue to attract 
the best, the brightest and the most creative workforce in the world, 
said Governor Schwarzenegger. Broadband will help build California so 
we can grow our economy, create great jobs and stay ahead in the global 
marketplace.


Ellis Berns, Rachelle Chong, William Geppert, Charles Giancarlo, Paul 
Hernandez, William Huber, Christine Kehoe, Wendy Lazarus, Lloyd Levine, 
Michael Liang, Bryan Martin, Timothy McCallion, Sunne Wright McPeak, 
Milo Medin, Peter Pardee, Peter Pennekamp, Debra Richardson, Rollin 
Richmond, Larry Smarr, Jonathan Taplin and Emy Tseng have all been 
appointed to the Boradband Board.



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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Joe Laura
But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just kidding.
Its Friday.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

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 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread cw

SR9 on WAR at 5MHz is about 6Mb

Tom DeReggi wrote:
We are finding that for most of the OEM 900 product though, best case 
speed gets close to 1mbps on a 5mhz channel.
So Trango, is still our dominent choice, from towers,m where we do not 
need the flexibility and low cost of relaying.

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RE: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Forbes Mercy
This is one of those times when we need to ride the coats of the big guys.  
They spent millions in lobbying and legal fees to make sure they didn't have to 
be regulated like a common carrier by defining the new term information 
service.  All of us are in that business and even though Cable, Power 
companies and to some extent even the Telco's did this so they could slap us 
small guys around the advantage is we are also unregulated thanks to them.  So 
if we can say anything it's that we don’t have to join the very messy regulated 
crowd.  

Did you see the court decision this week stating Cable could refuse service and 
the person sued them up to the Court of Appeals and lost with the court saying 
that cable is not a utility and thus not required to give service to anyone?  
Aren't you glad Cable paid to get that judgment rather then you having to go 
broke trying?   They may be crappy at service and high priced but they do love 
to spend money that gives us legal precedent for free.

Forbes Mercy
President -Washington Broadband, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Kerns
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 1:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

As a common carrier I can understand and agree. What about providing E-mail 
services to our customers, do we then need to keep copies of all e-mail that 
comes into or goes out our server?

Tim Kerns

- Original Message - 
From: Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?


 We are common carriers.  We no more have to copy peoples e-mail than the 
 phone company has to record the contents of every call.

 Tim Kerns wrote:

 I caught a brief report on FoxNews today about a requirement for keeping 
 copies of E-mail. It seems that we may be required to maintain a copy for 
 use at later time for criminal courts. Anyone know of this or have more 
 info on it? Is it every ISP or only Corporations. This could be 
 disasterious. sell alot of storage devices... The Foxnews report says 
 the requirement begins today and as usual not a lot of detail.

 Tim Kerns
 CV-Access, Inc.



 -- 
 Blair Davis

 AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

 West Michigan Wireless ISP
 269-686-8648

 A division of:
 Camp Communication Services, INC

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Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?

2006-12-01 Thread Blake Bowers

I found that a little interesting also.  I don't really
think a WISP would WANT to be termed a common
carrier.

communications common carrier: 1. The term communications common carrier 
as used in this part [of 47CFR] means any person (individual, partnership, 
association, joint-stock company, trust, corporation, or other entity) 
engaged as a common carrier for hire, in interstate or foreign communication 
by wire or radio or in interstate or foreign radio transmission of energy, 
including such carriers as are described in subsection 2(b) (2) and (3) of 
the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, and, in addition, for purposes 
of subpart H of this part, includes any individual, partnership, 
association, joint-stock company, trust, corporation, or other entity which 
owns or controls, directly or indirectly, or is under direct or indirect 
common control with, any such carrier. [47CFR] 2. Any person engaged in 
rendering communication service for hire to the public. [47CFR] Synonym 
common carrier.



Internet providers have historicaly fought to NOT be
called a communications provider, but rather a
information services provider.

The FCC has held, that the ISP is not providing the
telecommunications network, but rather overlaying
their information on the common carrier network.


- Original Message - 
From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Recording LAW in effect today?


I find it interesting that people are stating their organizations are 
common carriers. The term common carrier has a very specific legal meaning. 
Specifically, a common carrier is an entity licensed by the FCC or a state 
agency to supply local and/or long distance telecommunications services to 
the general public at established and stated rates.


How many WISPs fit the above definition?

-Matt

Tim Kerns wrote:

As a common carrier I can understand and agree. What about providing

We are common carriers.  We no more have to copy peoples e-mail than



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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread J. Vogel
Does that BreezeACCESS CPE do 5 mile *NECLoS shots? Usable links that is...
Serious question... I don't know. If it does, I will have to re-think
how I am doing
things

John

* Not Even Close to Line of Sight...

Patrick Leary wrote:
 Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
 the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
 the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
 mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
 mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
 legal.

 (donning flame suit now)

 - Patrick

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

 Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
 International 
 Shipping charges (if in US).


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


   
 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
   
 for 
   
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

   
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE 
(under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things 
together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much 
smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. 
VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is 
also all fully FCC legal.


This hardly compares to having a router at the CPE.  While it is a 
good price, it is not a fair comparison.



(donning flame suit now)


'tis alright, Patrick.  No flames here.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread cw
I would be extremely interested in your $250 solution if it didn't have that 
stupid software governor on it limiting bandwidth. What is it, 3Mb x 2Mb? 
What's the actual throughput? - cw


Patrick Leary wrote:

Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International 

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Rick Smith

We're installing SR9 clients with a 2.4 antenna on it, and never going
in the house except for power.  Customers sign onto the *hotspotted* 2.4
antenna, and if their neighbors want to sign on as well, so be it.

Can't do that with Alvarion.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:21 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the
AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the
points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a
warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting
hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for 
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even
more critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted
into chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost
of the AU is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and
its clients, especially when working in the OPEX issues.

For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program
and buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE
cost with free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL
sector. In that case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x
25, or $9,025. The equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices
in this thread would be $348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping.
So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping
we are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic
support, FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not
forget no user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades.

Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am
seriously missing something.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Laura
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just
kidding.
Its Friday.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so
the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Rick Smith
There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and you've
now built
a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new customers.

Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters.  But
again,
Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM
To: Joe Laura; WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even more
critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into
chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of the AU
is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its clients,
especially when working in the OPEX issues.

For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program and
buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost with
free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In that
case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The
equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would be
$348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping.
So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping we
are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic support,
FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not forget no
user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades.

Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am seriously
missing something.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Laura
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just kidding.
Its Friday.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the
AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the
points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a
warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting
hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112  Anyone see anything 
 different ?
  R

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
The AlvarionCOMNET CPE does 3mbps net and 2mbps up. It can be upgraded
via software if needed, but you only would do that once you have a
client willing to pay for the additional capacity. You can take it to
6mbps down and 4mbps up or to the full CPE that can deliver over 30mbps
net. I appreciate the not liking the limiting thing, but this is about
enabling a pay as you need model that makes residential a reality with
premium quality 5GHz gear that can take you as upstream as you could
want in terms of services, network value, OPEX benefits (ask guys like
Marty Dougherty about the real dollar OPEX benefits, he was a big
802.11b user, then a big Trango user before switching to BreezeACCESS
VL). In any event, even Mikrotik charges licenses for user counts and
the hardware is no different either, right?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of cw
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:04 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

I would be extremely interested in your $250 solution if it didn't have
that 
stupid software governor on it limiting bandwidth. What is it, 3Mb x
2Mb? 
What's the actual throughput? - cw

Patrick Leary wrote:
 Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
 the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together
so
 the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
 mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with
 mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC
 legal.
 
 (donning flame suit now)
 
 - Patrick
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
 
 Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
 International 
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
As a matter of fact you could and it's something we've had for years and
it is a warranted item. That's be a CX deployment using VLDS.11. The
range of that DS.11 would probably cover the whole neighborhood (high
power and very high sensitivity), but the issue would be the ability of
the users laptops to connect reach up to the DS.11 AP. Also, such a
model would not be cheap enough to do at every house (but why do you
want to put an AP at every house?). We actually just released a new CX
that can mate together any set of frequencies we sell in unlicensed.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


We're installing SR9 clients with a 2.4 antenna on it, and never going
in the house except for power.  Customers sign onto the *hotspotted* 2.4
antenna, and if their neighbors want to sign on as well, so be it.

Can't do that with Alvarion.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:21 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the
AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the
points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a
warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting
hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for 
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112
  Anyone see anything different ?
  R

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are
not building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely
or at least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer
advanced services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a
satisfactory exit?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and
you've
now built
a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new customers.

Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters.
But
again,
Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM
To: Joe Laura; WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even
more
critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into
chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of
the AU
is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its
clients,
especially when working in the OPEX issues.

For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program
and
buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost
with
free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In
that
case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The
equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would
be
$348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping.
So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping
we
are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic
support,
FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not forget
no
user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades.

Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am
seriously
missing something.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Laura
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just
kidding.
Its Friday.
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under
the
AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the
points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to
mention a
warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting
hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal.

(donning flame suit now)

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Exactly, after you add the rootenna,  you are at $348, plus
International
Shipping charges (if in US).


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


 http://www.star-v3.com/store/

 $262 ea in ten packs + roo.

 Rick Smith wrote:
 Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ?
  What kind of pricing per CPE
  I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each
for
 a
 rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112  Anyone see anything 
 different ?
  R

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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:


reduced truck roll,


Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this 
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the 
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you 
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add 
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is 
exactly the same (or very close).


NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution 
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how 
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd 
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at 
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area, 
but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP 
somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including 
antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. 
I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet 
port all the way to my network edge.  Did I miss anything?  Perhaps 
there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed.



--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Rick Smith
Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.  They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion, and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9 repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?  
Cost of implementation's cheaper.
Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.  

Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.

I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls, short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into one
platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good support
for.   

I don't see how that's bad business.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are not
building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or at
least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced
services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a satisfactory
exit?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and you've
now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new
customers.

Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters.
But
again,
Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM
To: Joe Laura; WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even more
critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into
chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of the AU
is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its clients,
especially when working in the OPEX issues.

For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program and
buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost with
free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In that
case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The
equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would be
$348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping.
So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping we
are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, 

RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide
routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work
we have our own router.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q.
It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and
DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver
real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP
(wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop,
it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of
these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in
from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons
in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs
simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same
WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

 reduced truck roll,

Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this 
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the 
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you 
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add 
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is 
exactly the same (or very close).

NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution 
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how 
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd 
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at 
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area, 
but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP 
somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including 
antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. 
I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet 
port all the way to my network edge.  Did I miss anything?  Perhaps 
there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed.


-- 
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.
They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine
and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion,
and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same
functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can
put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX
repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9
repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each
customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in
putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?  
Cost of implementation's cheaper.
Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a
phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let
you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still
in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.  

Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and
it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.

I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls,
short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including
licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into
one
platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good
support
for.   

I don't see how that's bad business.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are
not
building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or
at
least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced
services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a
satisfactory
exit?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and
you've
now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new
customers.

Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters.
But
again,
Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL 

Re: [WISPA] bare conduits

2006-12-01 Thread John J. Thomas
I have heard of people using something resembling a ping pong ball, pressure on 
one end and vacuum on the other to push a small string/ribbon through. Once 
that is done you just pull bigger string until you get the size you want.

John

-Original Message-
From: chris cooper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2006 09:24 AM
To: ''WISPA General List''
Subject: [WISPA] bare conduits

Im looking at a project that requires connectivity between multiple
buildings on the same campus.  There are 4 conduits connecting each
facility.  The conduits are bare, Id like to run fiber in them, and
there are no pull cords in them.  Some are several hundred yards long.
Ive heard that you can blow a cable through a conduit.  Can anyone
enlighten me on equipment/technique for this application?



Thanks

Chris

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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Blair Davis
Why provide routers?   To improve the isolation of the user from the 
network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they 
clog up my wireless bandwidth.  We run private IP space on our wireless 
network for the same reasons.


We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons.

I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's  But in my area, 
that would price me out of the market.




We Patrick Leary wrote:


Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide
routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work
we have our own router.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q.
It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and
DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver
real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP
(wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop,
it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of
these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in
from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons
in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs
simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same
WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. 


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

 


reduced truck roll,
   



Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this 
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the 
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you 
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add 
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is 
exactly the same (or very close).


NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution 
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how 
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd 
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at 
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area, 
but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP 
somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including 
antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. 
I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet 
port all the way to my network edge.  Did I miss anything?  Perhaps 
there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed.



 



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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Blair Davis

Equity value is only important to those who wish to build and sell

Those of us who just wish to make a living don't care so much about 
re-sale value.  We are more interested in income.


Patrick Leary wrote:


I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.
They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine
and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion,
and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same
functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can
put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX
repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9
repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each
customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in
putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?  
Cost of implementation's cheaper.

Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a
phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let
you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still
in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.  


Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and
it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.


I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls,
short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including
licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into
one
platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good
support
for.   


I don't see how that's bad business.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are
not
building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or
at
least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced
services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a
satisfactory
exit?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and
you've
now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new
customers.

Those 

Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Joe Laura
Patrick, How much are your A/P's going for in the 5.8 range?
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:00 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients


I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the
Alvarion name ?  Please.

As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters.
They're
legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases.  Sheesh, in some cases, the
houses will fall down before the equipment dies.

I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff.  That's all fine
and
good.   Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion,
and
by $1000's.  CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more.  Same
functionality
with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500.  So, the way I see it, I can
put
4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX
repeater.
AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well!   So, $5,000 spent = 1
customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with
repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9
repeaters
out there touching a ton more customers.

With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering /
HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each
customer, OR
a bridged network if I should so choose.

Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in
putting
together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ?
Cost of implementation's cheaper.
Cost of replacement's cheaper.
Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a
phone
call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation.
Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to
upgrade like Alvarion
Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let
you
decide.  No unlock extortion.

Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still
in
a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for
some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while.  Whole
thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's.

Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and
it's
the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units.  Rock solid, decently priced (on the used
market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff.

I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on
Alvarion gear though.  Especially when I've got high speed backhauls,
short
and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including
licensed
and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into
one
platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good
support
for.

I don't see how that's bad business.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are
not
building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or
at
least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced
services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious
question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a
satisfactory
exit?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik.

Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and
you've

RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete
and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also
for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets
without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Blair Davis
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

Why provide routers?   To improve the isolation of the user from the 
network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they 
clog up my wireless bandwidth.  We run private IP space on our wireless 
network for the same reasons.

We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons.

I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's  But in my area,

that would price me out of the market.



We Patrick Leary wrote:

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't
provide
routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work
we have our own router.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q.
It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and
DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver
real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP
(wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing
goop,
it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of
these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in
from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons
in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs
simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same
WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

  

reduced truck roll,



Where are you getting this?

I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this 
list.  I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the 
fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you 
would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router.  SO, we would add 
another $25ish to the cost of your CPE.  At this point, the price is 
exactly the same (or very close).

NOW, let's talk about upsell capability.  With the Alvarion solution 
(including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how 
much?  I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd 
have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at 
least) a $100 router.  If I am able to hit one customer in an area, 
but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP 
somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including 
antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. 
I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet 
port all the way to my network edge.  Did I miss anything?  Perhaps 
there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed.


  


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Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Dylan Oliver

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your
network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An
Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this
is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's
just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him
in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.)



Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a
higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices?
I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't 
provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my 
home. At work we have our own router.


I provide a router because that is the best network design and it 
offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a 
COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it, 
others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.


VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 

SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator 
and it blew them away.)


Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about 
Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)


Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some 
of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally 
shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we 
could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been 
disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. 
Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that 
another WISP is over driving a system.


This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out 
to be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a 
little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone 
breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a 
difference between operating a system that is not certified within 
legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal 
power limits.  The primary difference is that one of these (you get 
to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than 
the other.


On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not 
about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of 
it (once again).  I really just wish you'd at least have the 
courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the 
subject.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
No, at the moment just anecdotal. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about
your
 network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it,
 but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price.
An
 Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may
 fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and
this
 is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An
 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value.
That's
 just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the
 roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed
him
 in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his
opinion.)


Hi Patrick,

What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch
a
higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell
prices?
I'd be interested to see it.

Best,
-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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[WISPA] I did step into it...

2006-12-01 Thread Patrick Leary
but only always with the best and most sincere of intentions.

Is that a better subject line Butch? :) Anyway, time for me to quit the
thread since it is not headed in any positive direction, whether or not
it is of my making.

G'night.

 
Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't 
provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my 
home. At work we have our own router.

I provide a router because that is the best network design and it 
offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a 
COMMODITY service (transport).  You don't have to agree with it, 
others don't have to do it, but them's the facts.

VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 
SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP
that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator 
and it blew them away.)

Wow.  As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about 
Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph)

Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some 
of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally 
shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we 
could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been 
disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. 
Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that 
another WISP is over driving a system.

This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out 
to be.  I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a 
little more like shades of grey.  I'm not supporting anyone 
breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a 
difference between operating a system that is not certified within 
legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal 
power limits.  The primary difference is that one of these (you get 
to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than 
the other.

On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not 
about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of 
it (once again).  I really just wish you'd at least have the 
courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the 
subject.

-- 
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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