RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Mac Dearman
Patrick,

   You are a better man than I am - no doubt! You have answered seven
thousand questions, retorted seven thousand fallacies and straightened out
another seven thousand myths. I have been a consultant for Trango for the
last two years and I do know every in and every out of Trango gear. I can
tell you what it will do and what it will not do, what to expect and what
not to look for by just looking at your coverage area. It doesn't matter
if it's 900 MHz, 5.x or 2.4GHz - - I can tell you some stuff. I have built
Muni networks with Trango and I have built my personal network with Trango
and a menagerie of different gear. I can also tell you and the rest of the
world about Alvarion.

  I bought another WISP in a distant town and when I bought them out they
were a 100% Alvarion network. That was my first experience with Alvarion. I
will tell you that they had the 3mbps gear up, they had a 99% business
network and that they had 0% LOS to any client. I never bothered to check
out their clients or how they were installed, but jumped at the opportunity
to buy them out at a great price. When I did get the deal done I soon
realized the gear they were running far exceeded what I had in store. I did
have to place 900MHz gear to replace the Alvarion 3mbps FHSS to establish
and maintain those connections. These folks didn't know sheet from shinola,
but they had a nice WISP and all they could say was Alvarion. They never
bothered to further themselves education wise, but called on Trango to buy
more gear when they had another client. When I tell you they couldn't spell
PC - - they didn't have a clue.

All this said - - - why do you feel you must guard against and protect
Alvarion from every opposing opinion? I don't have to tell you that there
are those that can be starving from thirst, led to water and still die from
thirst. The ComNet program is absolutely a great program that has enabled
(and will enable) many WISP to upgrade to a carrier class program. I can't
speak for anyone else, but I (as an old time Trango hand) appreciate all the
work that I know you personally put into this program. You are a good man
who cares about the folks who make this wireless industry exist. 

All right - - one question for myself - - - - dang, why are the AP's so
stinking expensive? It is only a software difference and if the AP's weren't
as costly - - -   I believe that Alvarion would run off with the market. Why
is it that this type gear has to be so substantially higher in cost?


Mac Dearman

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

...okay, I went off the deep end there. It was wrong of me to insult the
competition because I'm allowing myself to be baited. Sorry folks. Sorry
Trango. Ghrr.

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will
discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next!

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have
something
worth taking note about.  Throw in dual band ability and now you're on
the
right track.

As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a
VL
radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so.  Sounds like
fun!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual
horizontal 
Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?).
Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even 
considering the 10Mhz channel option.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist  Motorola is extremely
conservative on
 the spec sheet.  4.21 Mbps Net typical where you get that?  I got
 Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be
the
 most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between 
 performance
 and interference rejection.  And don't negate the fact that GPS is a
must
 have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, 

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Mac Dearman
 

 

These folks didn't know sheet from shinola, but they had a nice WISP and
all they could say was Alvarion. They never bothered to further themselves
education wise, but called on Trango to buy more gear when they had another
client. When I tell you they couldn't spell PC - - they didn't have a clue

 

CORRECTION should read: They never bothered to further themselves education
wise but, called on ALVARION to buy more gear..

 

 

Mac Dearman

 

 

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 2:41 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 

Patrick,

 

   You are a better man than I am - no doubt! You have answered seven

thousand questions, retorted seven thousand fallacies and straightened out

another seven thousand myths. I have been a consultant for Trango for the

last two years and I do know every in and every out of Trango gear. I can

tell you what it will do and what it will not do, what to expect and what

not to look for by just looking at your coverage area. It doesn't matter

if it's 900 MHz, 5.x or 2.4GHz - - I can tell you some stuff. I have built

Muni networks with Trango and I have built my personal network with Trango

and a menagerie of different gear. I can also tell you and the rest of the

world about Alvarion.

 

  I bought another WISP in a distant town and when I bought them out they

were a 100% Alvarion network. That was my first experience with Alvarion. I

will tell you that they had the 3mbps gear up, they had a 99% business

network and that they had 0% LOS to any client. I never bothered to check

out their clients or how they were installed, but jumped at the opportunity

to buy them out at a great price. When I did get the deal done I soon

realized the gear they were running far exceeded what I had in store. I did

have to place 900MHz gear to replace the Alvarion 3mbps FHSS to establish

and maintain those connections. These folks didn't know sheet from shinola,

but they had a nice WISP and all they could say was Alvarion. They never

bothered to further themselves education wise, but called on Trango to buy

more gear when they had another client. When I tell you they couldn't spell

PC - - they didn't have a clue.

 

All this said - - - why do you feel you must guard against and protect

Alvarion from every opposing opinion? I don't have to tell you that there

are those that can be starving from thirst, led to water and still die from

thirst. The ComNet program is absolutely a great program that has enabled

(and will enable) many WISP to upgrade to a carrier class program. I can't

speak for anyone else, but I (as an old time Trango hand) appreciate all the

work that I know you personally put into this program. You are a good man

who cares about the folks who make this wireless industry exist. 

 

All right - - one question for myself - - - - dang, why are the AP's so

stinking expensive? It is only a software difference and if the AP's weren't

as costly - - -   I believe that Alvarion would run off with the market. Why

is it that this type gear has to be so substantially higher in cost?

 

 

Mac Dearman

 

-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Patrick Leary

Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:16 PM

To: WISPA General List

Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 

...okay, I went off the deep end there. It was wrong of me to insult the

competition because I'm allowing myself to be baited. Sorry folks. Sorry

Trango. Ghrr.

 

Patrick

 

-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Patrick Leary

Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:12 PM

To: WISPA General List

Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 

Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will

discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next!

 

Patrick

 

-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Brad Belton

Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM

To: 'WISPA General List'

Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 

Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have

something

worth taking note about.  Throw in dual band ability and now you're on

the

right track.

 

As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a

VL

radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so.  Sounds like

fun!

 

Best,

 

 

Brad

 

 

 

-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Tom DeReggi

Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM

To: WISPA General List

Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 

Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual

horizontal 

Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?).


RE: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the BUSINESS?

2006-12-27 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Well said!

I wanted add my two cents.  I have no dog in this fight, but I hope everyone
realizes just how blest this industry and the WISPA organization is to have
Patrick and Alvarion actively involved here.  Its not a perfect comparison,
but it is like having Juniper Networks or perhaps even Cisco actively trying
to win WISP business here.  You don't have to agree with him, or like their
products, but please understand the commitment that Alvarion has made with
the Comnet program and with Patrick trying to answer your
questions/concerns.  

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.  :-)

Happy New Year!

Jeff


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:10 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the
BUSINESS?

Gents:

Funny watching all of this go back and forth- I think since it started we
have installed another 10-12 VL's for our customers. I really don't know how
you guys find the time to keep up with this.

You all can argue the merits of the technical abilities of the different
products but what really make the count for us is REVENUE- Revenue pays the
bills and keeps the whole ship afloat. Now when I say revenue I don't mean
enough for me to take a check and go to the grocery. I mean enough revenue
to hire the proper staff, (so I don't have to work 80 hours per week),
revenue to rent a real office, revenue to pay full benefits like health care
and 401K, revenue to pay for training, revenue to purchase network
management so we can keep an eye on the network, revenue so we can take a
few days off and attend industry trade shows and seminars, etc etc.

So if you set aside your technical dream solution hat (I am an engineer by
training too) and instead put on your revenue hat you will see things with a
different light.

A solution is not revenue focused if it does not scale your customer base
beyond the grocery store check. Scale means the products allow you to
install LOTS of customer without each one being a science project.
Scale means you have a VERY LOW failure rate. Scale means the solution fits
a majority of your desired customers. Scale means you have all of the tools
needed to prevent your customers from abusing you or your other customers.
Scale means you can hand the product to a contractor and it will get
installed without a major effort. Scaling means..etc etc...


A solution that scales also comes with REAL support. A real account manager
and a real SE- not to mention marketing. Can you really expect your network
to keep up with/grow to your needs if your sole source of product
information and future direction is a WEB site? When was the last time a
Trango EMPLOYEE asked for your feedback?

We have installed well over 1000 VL's and close to 1900 total customers,
almost all using Alvarion products. We started with Wifi, Trango, MOTO etc
but in the end the Alavarion product line was the most focused on revenue
and the only solution that allowed us to scale. Today our customers are VERY
happy and our network performs excellently. We have a very LOW turnover
(almost none) and our monthly AR is also very low. I learned long time ago
that happy customers pay their bills and unhappy ones, well you know what
happens.

So in summary the VL's and (Alvarion products) may not have every version of
every possible bell and whistle but if you decide to really make a big play
(scale) you can't go wrong with Alvarion and their team.


BTW-I have the revenue to prove it!



Marty


Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:31 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the BUSINESS?

Sigh. Jon, I'm really not sure why you beat that drum when examples exist
all around that show it is not true. In fact, no tier 1 or 2 operator that
deploys in the 5GHz unlicensed bands (i.e. operators that tend to do lengthy
trials, comparisons) that I know of has fallen for that argument either, at
least not for long. Many WISPs also know better. It is only a few
Canopy-based WISPs who continue to believe that GPS is required in the UL
bands. Could it be because they have to use it to get Canopy to scale so
they can't imagine how other systems could scale well without it? 

As for the non-engineer part, it seems Jon that you'd benefit from some
wider non-technical thinking. What about the business? Here are some
BUSINESS-minded things to think about:

- What about an operator that does not want to be stranded by being limited
in their service offering, such as one that would like to do scaled VoIP?
BreezeACCESS VL can scale VoIP very well where other systems struggle with
only minimal users. Canopy Advantage's 

[WISPA] It's not Friday but...

2006-12-27 Thread Jeff Broadwick
http://www.grimmy.com/comics.php

Jeff Broadwick
Sales Manager, ImageStream
800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can)
+1 574-935-8484 x106  (Int'l)
+1 574-935-8488   (Fax) 


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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread David E. Smith

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:


Also, they add significant latency to ordinary traffic (the requested URLs
have to be obtained in their entirety first then relayed) and you can't have
more than a thousand up to several thousand simultaneous users...maybe not a
problem... you can get around that with load balancing in the NOCs with
multiple proxy servers.


True, but that doesn't mean they're always bad for everyone. I used to 
run a transparent Web cache/proxy for our dialup users, but it was more 
for our benefit than theirs. (It was cheaper than adding more T1s at the 
time.)


If you have plenty of backhaul capacity, and plenty of upstream 
capacity, nobody will get much benefit from Web caching. If one or both 
of those is a bit tight, the parts to build one are usually cheaper than 
a big expansion, and can get you through a tight spot (hopefully just as 
a temporary measure until you can do things the right way, but...)


I did have one set up for our wireless network a couple years back, but 
it ended up being more trouble than it was worth, as I spent a lot of 
time programming in exceptions. (Example: one of our bigger customers at 
the time was a car dealership, and Web proxying broke a lot of their 
stuff talking back to Detroit.) Expect a lot of weird phone calls the 
first week or so after you turn one on.


David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread David E. Smith

George Rogato wrote:

You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have 
x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your 
network. All free.


Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to 
play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about 
getting one.


David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Travis Johnson

Hi,

We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to 
play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
and don't allow you access whatsoever.


But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
who to contact, as we were approached by them.


Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:

George Rogato wrote:

You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
your network. All free.


Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC 
to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go 
about getting one.


David Smith
MVN.net

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Brad Belton
My statement below is simply a fact regarding committed rate business class
service.  If Alvarion Support could have made it work then the gear would
still be up and the client would still be using it.

How many times have I said Alvarion makes a quality product?  How many times
have I said I'd love to be able to use Alvarion?  How many times have I said
this isn't about one brand vs. another, but rather results?

John, I get the feeling you just aren't reading through the posts
completely.  Clearly I do not hate VL instead I'd love to see the product
IMPROVED!  What is so wrong with that?

Best,


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:09 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Best,


Brad

  

Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot 
help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and 
over to this list. I do not need to be told every day that VL is bad in 
the world according to Brad Belton. We have all heard you say it 100 
times I think. (Maybe several time that if we look at your posts to 
other lists about the same issues) Please change the record. There are 
many of us who do not agree with you that find your non-stop nitpicking 
posts to be a nuisance to this list.

We get ityou hate VL. You stated your piece and we all read about 
it, OVER and OVER. Alvarion is open to criticism just as any other 
platform and we show no favoritism but enough is enough. Please move on 
to another topic.
Respectfully,
Scriv



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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Brad Larson
Jon, Sigh...Sync in wimax is the preferred method for small channel
deployments to ensure QOS and protecting a scheduled mac that has not
been optimized for interference rejection.  I would also conclude that
mobility and denser cell sites for voip and indoor installs are quite
different than most UL deployments. Sync has very little to do with
using an old modulation technique that needs sync to ensure scale of any
size. I would argue that megabits per Hz, voip, and video are the things
to watch for 2007 and beyond. For further information on sync and wimax
in the UL bands keep your eye on 802.16h. 

I would add that if you can't connect a customer because of LOS issues
all the sync you can muster doesn't make a difference. Connecting those
customers and saving money on the number of cell sites, leases, and
maintenance of those sites DOES make a MAJOR difference as well as WHAT
you can sell to your customers in the form of additional services other
than just data! A well respected ISP just did a bakeoff in a metro area
and they found out very quickly that VL connected more subscriber sites
at much higher data rates. I had an engineer on the ground doing 6 meg's
up and down where Mot had zero connectivity at 6 of the 11 sites that
were the problem areas. 

As far as your statement of having happy customers, Marty from
Roadstar already answered that one and please keep in mind that probably
very few Alvarion shops are subscribers here (I'm trying to change that
because I think it's very important that you guys hear more from our
installed base). Maybe Marty and others will chime in on their low
maintenance and ease of install and the support we offer. I know Marty
is saving boatloads of money on the backend because of his change of
manufacturer. BTW, The 2,400 cpe 5 square mile network I spoke of in a
previous post is humming right along and could have never been built at
the same cost with Mot (and they lost the bid because of that).

As a side note: Many of my customers tell me that they just don't get
all the Alvarion dissing that has become commonplace on the lists. Look
at this current thread and how it has spun into something other than
what was intended.One situation from one installation set the tone
for the dissing while at the same time we have a multitude of trained
and certified VAR's and wisp's that have had the exact opposite opinion
and are doing the exact installs and builds that we're being told can't
be done (and several VAR's have done 100's of them). It's a shame we
constantly have to defend our position from the constant rhetoric any
time there is a congratulating post from one of our customers or someone
asking for insight on the value of an Alvarion rollout...Brad Larson


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

I didn't make any 'claims' and as for 1,000 cpe, that's possible with 
wifi(although I'd hate to be one of the end-users). Some of the 
differences is how happy the customers are(reliability seems to play key

here), whether they're business or res., how easy it is to have lower 
cost employees deploy the network(as opposed to me and other qualified

or certified engineers that charge $10K's more/yr), and how tasked the

support and management department is, etc. Things that factor into 
operating a real world wisp. My kind of business is one I can leave for 
a vacation or another venture while having confidence the thing is going

to continue growing while I'm gone.
As for GPS sync. Maybe the cellular guys were wrong the whole time, must

be another Moto consipiracy and maybe mention that to everyone that 
developed 802.16d/e(WIMAX) including your own Alvarion engineers! ;) No 
GPS is not required, but it sure makes a lot of sense and is arguably 
'proper' for a multi cell deployment. I predict this is one of those 
things that the novice wisp will someday either understand, moved on 
beyond wireless last mile, or stuck it out and trained their support 
dept. on how to 'put out fires' for as long as possible. Of course all 
of this is my opinion but I have to go now...hopfully was enough for 
everyone to chew on ;)

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Brad Larson wrote:

Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably
never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread was
started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000 cpe
threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed
to
be possible according to some posting on this topic!! And the funny
part
of it is, VL displaced one of the products mentioned...performance went
up, truck rolls went down, and he sleeps better at night!! This thread
reminds me of a competitor slinging mud 2 years ago saying we couldn't
build a 3 tower network in 5 square miles to connect 2,400

RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget

The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes
stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads, anti-virus
vendor downloads, etc.  It's really great since the latency vanishes and I
note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per
second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the
large XP window size with latencies to the original sites.

However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of being
cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai
doesn't care.

It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is
likely the source of a lot of network load.

It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation and,
although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache.

. . . j o n a t h a n


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Hi,

We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to 
play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
and don't allow you access whatsoever.

But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
who to contact, as we were approached by them.

Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:
 George Rogato wrote:

 You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
 have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
 your network. All free.

 Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
 heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC 
 to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go 
 about getting one.

 David Smith
 MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Matt Liotta
You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's 
customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in 
transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various 
CDNs. If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't 
pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast.


-Matt

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:

Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget

The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes
stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads, anti-virus
vendor downloads, etc.  It's really great since the latency vanishes and I
note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per
second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the
large XP window size with latencies to the original sites.

However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of being
cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai
doesn't care.

It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is
likely the source of a lot of network load.

It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation and,
although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache.

. . . j o n a t h a n


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Hi,

We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to 
play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
and don't allow you access whatsoever.


But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
who to contact, as we were approached by them.


Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:
  

George Rogato wrote:


You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
your network. All free.
  
Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC 
to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go 
about getting one.


David Smith
MVN.net



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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Patrick Leary
Love the post. Thanks. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Bushard, Jr
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:03 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Brad, Jon, Patrick. I really think all of you are off the path
here

As Patrick knows we ARE a scaled canopy operator. I designed this baby
from
the ground up, everything from the L3 switches, Battery backup, 3rd
party
antennas, conversions, everything.

We are currently over 1,200 Canopy CPE in the field and doing over 100
installs per month.

Does Canopy have it's issues, your DAMN right. But it works, yes it does
require a high level of knowledge to scale a canopy network, but what
system
doesn't? anyone can throw together a 50 sub network, but 500 or 5000
separates the men from the boys.

Marlon originally said he was thinking about deploying VL for business
customers. Well guess what. we are too. And I think they are for
similar
reasons. The original network I owned was based on InvisiMax Access
Points
on Soekris SBC's with Senao wifi cards and CB3's as the CPE radios. Once
I
got it working it ran very well, but when I sold out the new owners
needed
more so I chose Canopy. Well now we want to deploy a Premium business
service, lets say 3Mbps of data with 6 Voice Lines. I KNOW canopy in its
current state will not do that with any scalability, so I turned to
Patrick
and PCS Technologies. I think we all know that VL wont hit a sub 5 miles
out
in the MN forest, only 900 or lower can do that, I also don't expect 900
to
push 30Mbps of data. Everything has its trade offs. 

As far as the GPS debate, I DO think GPS is a good thing, it sure can't
hurt. Did Alvarion choose to implement it, no, do I have a problem with
it,
no. Canopy has it for channel reuse, and because it needs it, period no
more
arguing, please. BA 900 and 2.4 has it because to scale it needs it.
After
all the only thing that can kill canopy IS canopy.

I probably should write more, but I have to work early (Towers crews
coming
to put up another Dragon Wave). I realize I may not have done anything
to
help, hopefully I have not mad an ass of myself, but I am really getting
tired of the Canopy Vs Alvarion Vs Trango bull crap.

Run what you feel is the best, and if you can't live with the fact that
others disagree, keep it to yourself. Marlon is a (I feel) intelligent
enough guy to make his own decisions, he has been doing this a long
time, He
is still around, so he must have either got real lucky, figured it out,
or
have the brains in the first place.

Maybe some day well all be at a conference and can rent a boxing ring
and
work this out but until then, please leave it alone, my delete key with
thank you.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
320-256-WISP (9477)
320-256-9478 Fax
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Not sure how your Alvarion 900 was configured, but our you are aware
that our 900 and 2.4 have both supported GPS sync since day one right
Eight years before Canopy even launched)?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 5:54 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Let's use 900MHz as an example. We deployed Alvarion 900 on multiple 
sites for over a year and it was a less than enjoyable experience. We 
started by transitioning one site from Alvarion 900 to Canopy 900 and 
things started working much better.
I may use licensed operations as an example only because I've had the 
experience of being on both sides of the fence. Also we buy GPS sync 
units as low as $300 new from a 3rd party vendor, as do many canopy 
operators.
As for the excess bandwidth availability in the UL bands, that's 
definately not the case here...

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Patrick Leary wrote:

Jon,

When discussing GPS, you continue to offer examples from the licensed
world, which is about as relevant as trying to do an apples to apples
comparisons of mobile licensed cellular service plans with UL fixed
wireless. As I have said before (last week), licensed uses GPS due to
the necessity of having to re-use a small amount of channel over and
over again, cell after cell. That's not the case in the UL world,
except
perhaps for Canopy whose bandwidth availability is so low relative to
the channel. 

Jon, you, me, the fence post and everyone else knows why Canopy --
alone
in the entire UL 5GHz world -- requires GPS to scale, 

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Rich Comroe
There's no unlicensed product which guarantees business class services in 
interference.  To suggest product A does and product B doesn't is nonsense.  I 
think you've done a good job of describing why you think some products do a 
better job of than others.  That's fair.  Sharing experiences where one product 
did better than another is fair.  I love reading your posts and others 
comparing the attributes which impact on this.  It's educational and I get 
insights into equipment that I haven't personally had direct experience.  But 
the constant bashing that some product will guarantee business class services 
in interference and another won't is tiresome, and just turns people off from 
the good content that people appreciate.

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brad Belton 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:26 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Certainly you can do committed rate business class services with unlicensed
  products.  WMUX, Terabridge, Trango just to name a few.  Are they
  interchangeable in application?  Nope, they require you use the right
  product for the job at hand.  What may work well on one project may not on
  the next.

  Interference typically isn't temporary...at least not around these parts!
  No, you need to engineer the link with enough forethought and available
  tools on hand to give yourself options in the event a link does begin to
  incur interference.

  In our experience the VL was erratic in its ability to consistently produce
  the same end result day in and day out.  Alvarion, me and the third party
  client all knew before hand the site was very RF unfriendly.  I visited the
  site personally to run surveys before any gear was deployed.  We spent the
  better part of a month with Alvarion trying to get the VL to produce a
  consistent level of throughput at any level without success.  Just as I
  began to believe we had it licked we would get another call from the client.
  The really frustrating part of all this is the throughput would vary
  depending on just how busy the other gear in the area was.  The busiest
  times of day is when we realized the link really suffered.

  I felt obligated to share our VL results here because Marlon indicated he
  was looking for a business class product.  VL is not that...at least not in
  our book.

  Best,


  Brad



  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Rich Comroe
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:35 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  Products that are best effort [snip product name]
  end up making guys like us look bad.

  I'm confused how can anyone do better than best effort in unlicensed
  spectrum, regardless of manufacturer?

  There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
  getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

  If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a
  licensed channel can accomplish that?

  Rich
- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton 
To: 'WISPA General List' 
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not produce
the results we are after then we look at other products.  We will not tie
our hands to one brand.  No reason to.

Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on.  Yes,
  CIR
is what we sell not MIR.  That may be a good thing for us or it may turn
  out
to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to
deliver.  

Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look bad.
There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

Expectations and end results are everything to us.  We meet expectations
  or
we'd rather not do it, part ways amiability and maintain our reputation.
It's a small town!  

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90%
  of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Agreed.  But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't work

well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset 
thing is that can be delivered.
CIR service may need to be changed to MIR. In what cases is CIR really 
needed? And what areas of your business or network 

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread John Scrivner
Brad, I just am getting a bit gun shy now when I see you post a 
complaint about no polarity this - no dual band that - or whatever your 
beef of the day is with VL. When you do it we inevitably get to see 
Patrick or Brad Larson go into defense mode which gets tiresome also. It 
is like some twisted tennis match that has no love. (pun intended)


It might be different if it were not the same story told over and over 
again. I am sorry I felt compelled to come down on you guys about these 
things but I am getting very annoyed and I bet I am not alone.


With that said I can also say that Alvarion does not get to bash Trango 
or Canopy or others on here any longer. Alvarion representatives will be 
called on this from now on when it happens. I have seen Trango and 
Canopy both represented in a very bad light by 2 Alvarion 
representatives on this list in the last 48 hours and it needs to stop. 
Intelligent comparisons about features and benefits are encouraged. 
Trashing one vendor over another (by a vendor) is going to stop right now.


WISPs get to complain (briefly please) about issues they have with 
vendors. We all need to know what is working and what is broken. 
Sometimes the problem can be solved by others who saw the same thing and 
know a solution. Sometimes the vendor can intervene and be the hero for 
all to see. Vendors need to use this list as a resource and see first 
hand what people are saying about their products. They  should help 
their customers here, on the list, when they can. Trying to defend every 
statement made leads to flame wars and hurt feelings and generally does 
not help solve anything. Use the list the way it was intended please. 
This is my number one issue here today.


To all of you, this list was not created to be a place where people 
complain endlessly about gear all day long just as it is not a place to 
advertise gear all day long. This is not the purpose. Say your 
complaints and attaboys clearly and mean them and then move on. If you 
are a vendor and want to compare your features and such then so be it 
but no more trashing the other guy on here. It is tiresome, childish and 
non-productive and, imho, it hurts the image of this association when 
you guys do it.


I will gladly continue this debate / discussion / flame / whatever 
offlist. I will not complain about you guys on here any longer. 
Continuing to complain over and over again about you guys on here would 
be redundant and non-productive, right? I think I have made my point 
clearly and I am ready to move on. Let's have a Happy New Year and start 
next year off right with good posts with substance that help our 
industry prosper.

Scriv




Brad Belton wrote:


My statement below is simply a fact regarding committed rate business class
service.  If Alvarion Support could have made it work then the gear would
still be up and the client would still be using it.

How many times have I said Alvarion makes a quality product?  How many times
have I said I'd love to be able to use Alvarion?  How many times have I said
this isn't about one brand vs. another, but rather results?

John, I get the feeling you just aren't reading through the posts
completely.  Clearly I do not hate VL instead I'd love to see the product
IMPROVED!  What is so wrong with that?

Best,


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:09 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 


The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Best,


Brad



   

Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot 
help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and 
over to this list. I do not need to be told every day that VL is bad in 
the world according to Brad Belton. We have all heard you say it 100 
times I think. (Maybe several time that if we look at your posts to 
other lists about the same issues) Please change the record. There are 
many of us who do not agree with you that find your non-stop nitpicking 
posts to be a nuisance to this list.


We get ityou hate VL. You stated your piece and we all read about 
it, OVER and OVER. Alvarion is open to criticism just as any other 
platform and we show no favoritism but enough is enough. Please move on 
to another topic.

Respectfully,
Scriv



 


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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
True, Matt, often a better way.

Now, what to do with P2P abusers?

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:39 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's 
customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in 
transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various 
CDNs. If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't 
pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast.

-Matt

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget

 The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes
 stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads,
anti-virus
 vendor downloads, etc.  It's really great since the latency vanishes and I
 note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per
 second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the
 large XP window size with latencies to the original sites.

 However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of
being
 cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai
 doesn't care.

 It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is
 likely the source of a lot of network load.

 It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation
and,
 although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache.

 . . . j o n a t h a n


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

 Hi,

 We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to 
 play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
 everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
 and don't allow you access whatsoever.

 But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
 speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
 who to contact, as we were approached by them.

 Travis
 Microserv

 David E. Smith wrote:
   
 George Rogato wrote:

 
 You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
 have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
 your network. All free.
   
 Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
 heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC 
 to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go 
 about getting one.

 David Smith
 MVN.net
 

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[WISPA] Broadscale Interference?

2006-12-27 Thread Rick Harnish
We are located in Indiana and we are seeing quite a bit of noise
interference the last couple of days.  We are seeing this on towers up to 50
miles apart from each other.  It seems pretty widespread.  Is anyone else
experiencing these issues?  I would like to get an idea if others are
experiencing these issues before we start climbing towers.  

 

Thanks,

 

Rick Harnish

President

OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.

260-827-2482

Founding Member of WISPA

 

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RE: [WISPA] Broadscale Interference?

2006-12-27 Thread Brian Webster
Rick,
Have you been seeing temperature swings from day to day that are out of 
the
norm? Here is NY we have some 45-50 degree days then the next day it's back
the typical 20's and 30's. I've been noticing some temperature inversions
around here and because of that propagation has been enhanced on some of the
radio band I monitor around here. Just wondering if you might be getting
some enhanced propagation that's bringing extra noise to your area.
Hopefully that's all it is because that will eventually go away



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com


-Original Message-
From: Rick Harnish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 2:50 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Broadscale Interference?


We are located in Indiana and we are seeing quite a bit of noise
interference the last couple of days.  We are seeing this on towers up to 50
miles apart from each other.  It seems pretty widespread.  Is anyone else
experiencing these issues?  I would like to get an idea if others are
experiencing these issues before we start climbing towers.



Thanks,



Rick Harnish

President

OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.

260-827-2482

Founding Member of WISPA



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RE: [WISPA] Broadscale Interference?

2006-12-27 Thread Rick Harnish
Brian,

Temp has been pretty constant 28-40 degrees the last few days, had some 60
degree weather last week.  I suppose there could be some heat in the ground
that is rising.  I've seen a lot worse temperature changes than this before
but I'm not saying that couldn't be an issue.  It does seem to be bothering
my horizontal polarity antennas more so than the vertical ones though.

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482
Founding Member of WISPA

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 2:59 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Broadscale Interference?

Rick,
Have you been seeing temperature swings from day to day that are out
of the
norm? Here is NY we have some 45-50 degree days then the next day it's back
the typical 20's and 30's. I've been noticing some temperature inversions
around here and because of that propagation has been enhanced on some of the
radio band I monitor around here. Just wondering if you might be getting
some enhanced propagation that's bringing extra noise to your area.
Hopefully that's all it is because that will eventually go away



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com


-Original Message-
From: Rick Harnish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 2:50 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Broadscale Interference?


We are located in Indiana and we are seeing quite a bit of noise
interference the last couple of days.  We are seeing this on towers up to 50
miles apart from each other.  It seems pretty widespread.  Is anyone else
experiencing these issues?  I would like to get an idea if others are
experiencing these issues before we start climbing towers.



Thanks,



Rick Harnish

President

OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.

260-827-2482

Founding Member of WISPA



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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Rick Harnish
My sentiments exactly, I was about to type something very similar but have
had a busy morning and hadn't gotten to it yet.  I try to steer clear of
lists that allow this behavior to continue.  As moderator of this list, I
should have cracked down on this quicker than this.  I appreciate your
support during my lapse of moderating effort :)  Tone it down folks, lets
start the new year out right.

Respectfully,

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482
Founding Member of WISPA



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:03 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Brad, I just am getting a bit gun shy now when I see you post a 
complaint about no polarity this - no dual band that - or whatever your 
beef of the day is with VL. When you do it we inevitably get to see 
Patrick or Brad Larson go into defense mode which gets tiresome also. It 
is like some twisted tennis match that has no love. (pun intended)

It might be different if it were not the same story told over and over 
again. I am sorry I felt compelled to come down on you guys about these 
things but I am getting very annoyed and I bet I am not alone.

With that said I can also say that Alvarion does not get to bash Trango 
or Canopy or others on here any longer. Alvarion representatives will be 
called on this from now on when it happens. I have seen Trango and 
Canopy both represented in a very bad light by 2 Alvarion 
representatives on this list in the last 48 hours and it needs to stop. 
Intelligent comparisons about features and benefits are encouraged. 
Trashing one vendor over another (by a vendor) is going to stop right now.

WISPs get to complain (briefly please) about issues they have with 
vendors. We all need to know what is working and what is broken. 
Sometimes the problem can be solved by others who saw the same thing and 
know a solution. Sometimes the vendor can intervene and be the hero for 
all to see. Vendors need to use this list as a resource and see first 
hand what people are saying about their products. They  should help 
their customers here, on the list, when they can. Trying to defend every 
statement made leads to flame wars and hurt feelings and generally does 
not help solve anything. Use the list the way it was intended please. 
This is my number one issue here today.

To all of you, this list was not created to be a place where people 
complain endlessly about gear all day long just as it is not a place to 
advertise gear all day long. This is not the purpose. Say your 
complaints and attaboys clearly and mean them and then move on. If you 
are a vendor and want to compare your features and such then so be it 
but no more trashing the other guy on here. It is tiresome, childish and 
non-productive and, imho, it hurts the image of this association when 
you guys do it.

I will gladly continue this debate / discussion / flame / whatever 
offlist. I will not complain about you guys on here any longer. 
Continuing to complain over and over again about you guys on here would 
be redundant and non-productive, right? I think I have made my point 
clearly and I am ready to move on. Let's have a Happy New Year and start 
next year off right with good posts with substance that help our 
industry prosper.
Scriv




Brad Belton wrote:

My statement below is simply a fact regarding committed rate business class
service.  If Alvarion Support could have made it work then the gear would
still be up and the client would still be using it.

How many times have I said Alvarion makes a quality product?  How many
times
have I said I'd love to be able to use Alvarion?  How many times have I
said
this isn't about one brand vs. another, but rather results?

John, I get the feeling you just aren't reading through the posts
completely.  Clearly I do not hate VL instead I'd love to see the product
IMPROVED!  What is so wrong with that?

Best,


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:09 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  

The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Best,


Brad

 



Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot 
help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and 
over to this list. I do not need to be told every day that VL is bad in 
the world according to Brad Belton. We have all heard you say it 100 
times I think. (Maybe several time that if we look at your posts to 
other lists about the same issues) Please change the record. There are 
many of us who do not agree with you that find 

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Patrick Leary
Thanks for the good post and advice Mac. I hope you are enjoying an
excellent Cajun Christmas. I should tell you, our regional engineer,
Keith, is a Lu'siana boy. So much so he is now moving back home though
he was only in neighboring Texas.

Patrick 






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RE: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the BUSINESS?

2006-12-27 Thread Patrick Leary
Thanks for the defense and the kind words Jeff! 

Do know though that any lumps and criticism I take on these lists are
generally earned by me and I've no one to blame but the mirror. Also,
while for me it is and always has been broadband first, wireless second,
and Alvarion third, I certainly ain't no altruist and I do have a dog in
the hunt.

Kind regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:47 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the
BUSINESS?

Well said!

I wanted add my two cents.  I have no dog in this fight, but I hope
everyone
realizes just how blest this industry and the WISPA organization is to
have
Patrick and Alvarion actively involved here.  Its not a perfect
comparison,
but it is like having Juniper Networks or perhaps even Cisco actively
trying
to win WISP business here.  You don't have to agree with him, or like
their
products, but please understand the commitment that Alvarion has made
with
the Comnet program and with Patrick trying to answer your
questions/concerns.  

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.  :-)

Happy New Year!

Jeff








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RE: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the BUSINESS?

2006-12-27 Thread Patrick Leary
Thanks Marty. You'd think after eight years of this I'd long ago learned
to shut up and let guys like you do all the talking.

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:10 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the
BUSINESS?

Gents:

Funny watching all of this go back and forth- I think since it started
we have installed another 10-12 VL's for our customers. I really don't
know how you guys find the time to keep up with this.

You all can argue the merits of the technical abilities of the different
products but what really make the count for us is REVENUE- Revenue pays
the bills and keeps the whole ship afloat. Now when I say revenue I
don't mean enough for me to take a check and go to the grocery. I mean
enough revenue to hire the proper staff, (so I don't have to work 80
hours per week), revenue to rent a real office, revenue to pay full
benefits like health care and 401K, revenue to pay for training, revenue
to purchase network management so we can keep an eye on the network,
revenue so we can take a few days off and attend industry trade shows
and seminars, etc etc.

So if you set aside your technical dream solution hat (I am an engineer
by training too) and instead put on your revenue hat you will see things
with a different light.

A solution is not revenue focused if it does not scale your customer
base beyond the grocery store check. Scale means the products allow you
to install LOTS of customer without each one being a science project.
Scale means you have a VERY LOW failure rate. Scale means the solution
fits a majority of your desired customers. Scale means you have all of
the tools needed to prevent your customers from abusing you or your
other customers. Scale means you can hand the product to a contractor
and it will get installed without a major effort. Scaling means..etc
etc...


A solution that scales also comes with REAL support. A real account
manager and a real SE- not to mention marketing. Can you really expect
your network to keep up with/grow to your needs if your sole source of
product information and future direction is a WEB site? When was the
last time a Trango EMPLOYEE asked for your feedback?

We have installed well over 1000 VL's and close to 1900 total customers,
almost all using Alvarion products. We started with Wifi, Trango, MOTO
etc but in the end the Alavarion product line was the most focused on
revenue and the only solution that allowed us to scale. Today our
customers are VERY happy and our network performs excellently. We have a
very LOW turnover (almost none) and our monthly AR is also very low. I
learned long time ago that happy customers pay their bills and unhappy
ones, well you know what happens.

So in summary the VL's and (Alvarion products) may not have every
version of every possible bell and whistle but if you decide to really
make a big play (scale) you can't go wrong with Alvarion and their team.


BTW-I have the revenue to prove it!



Marty


Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:31 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the
BUSINESS?

Sigh. Jon, I'm really not sure why you beat that drum when examples
exist all around that show it is not true. In fact, no tier 1 or 2
operator that deploys in the 5GHz unlicensed bands (i.e. operators that
tend to do lengthy trials, comparisons) that I know of has fallen for
that argument either, at least not for long. Many WISPs also know
better. It is only a few Canopy-based WISPs who continue to believe that
GPS is required in the UL bands. Could it be because they have to use it
to get Canopy to scale so they can't imagine how other systems could
scale well without it? 

As for the non-engineer part, it seems Jon that you'd benefit from some
wider non-technical thinking. What about the business? Here are some
BUSINESS-minded things to think about:

- What about an operator that does not want to be stranded by being
limited in their service offering, such as one that would like to do
scaled VoIP? BreezeACCESS VL can scale VoIP very well where other
systems struggle with only minimal users. Canopy Advantage's VoIP
scaling abilities are there for all to see in Motorola's own white paper
-- 26-28 simultaneous calls per AP only, and that's with a 50%
uplink/downlink configuration. VL can do 10x that and that all equates
to revenue potential. 
- What about the LOS-limited coverage of Canopy that might require 2 or
more times the towers to get the same coverage as one cell of VL? Even
cell for cell, CAPEX is now similar between brands, but VL produces
about 2x the geographic coverage. Canopy requires 

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Patrick Leary
Mac,

Mac,
I was reminded that you had a question at the end...here is my answer,
with the real meat, the blunt talk, towards the end.

The AUs are not actually the same as the CPE. I understand there are
some hardware differences. That said, the real reason AUs cost more than
CPE has nothing to do with actual box costs on a one-to-one basis. It is
more of a total-margin-across-a-network type economic equation. All
vendors have some form of margin loss leader and in this business that
happens on the CPE end. We've all (BWA vendors) done the equation that
says for every X CPE, 1 access unit is purchased. In understanding that
ratio, and how it changes over the life of the market and product line,
we are all hopefully able to plan and balance gross margin across a
product family. 

All professional (which is to say, FCC-certified and/or other such legal
and/or rated attributes like UL listing, ISO-certified, etc.) price this
way -- our per unit pricing on infrastructure is higher than per unit of
CPE. 

Also, over time as standards take hold (like they did in wireless LAN)
in the outside, metroscale wireless world, CPE becomes more and more
commoditized. Production of standardized commodity elements of a
solution then migrate to the commodity builders, with the more complex
and higher MTBF infrastructure pieces still built by the experts, the
specialty suppliers. The Alvarion's of the world are not commodity
builders. We are among the innovators and inventors, the guys that pour
tens and even hundreds of millions into RD, then hope to see return on
that investment mostly by selling infrastructure as the market fully
matures.

I'm not sure that's the answer you want, but it's accurate.

If your question is why does ours cost more than others, that's another
question, but certainly investment, quality and durability of
components, ISO-rated manufacturing processes, etc. contribute. But even
that said, few things in this world are priced based solely on the cost
of the parts and the manufacturing and handling. That's part of it, but
everyone tries to price in the end based on value offered. 

Something that is well-priced will be accepted by many, rejected by
some. Something poorly priced will be accepted by all, which means money
is likely being left on the table, or rejected by all, which means the
maker is too proud of their goods or have not otherwise convinced the
market of the value. From a WISP standpoint, I think Alvarion got damned
close to being too proud and certainly did not do the best job of
convincing WISPs of the value of products like BreezeACCESS VL. That's
why I asked to be allowed to personally re-focus on the WISP space and
from that comes the AlvarionCOMNET program. With that, I believe we are
right closer to the being accepted by all end of the spectrum and I
know some internally here think maybe I've gone too far. It's my gamble
and my ass on the line and I'm thankful for the responsibility and
appreciative my boss invested his confidence.

By the way, the AUS access unit model, which was released on the market
last month, is only $2,595 list...

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:41 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Patrick,

   You are a better man than I am - no doubt! You have answered seven
thousand questions, retorted seven thousand fallacies and straightened
out
another seven thousand myths. I have been a consultant for Trango for
the
last two years and I do know every in and every out of Trango gear. I
can
tell you what it will do and what it will not do, what to expect and
what
not to look for by just looking at your coverage area. It doesn't
matter
if it's 900 MHz, 5.x or 2.4GHz - - I can tell you some stuff. I have
built
Muni networks with Trango and I have built my personal network with
Trango
and a menagerie of different gear. I can also tell you and the rest of
the
world about Alvarion.

  I bought another WISP in a distant town and when I bought them out
they
were a 100% Alvarion network. That was my first experience with
Alvarion. I
will tell you that they had the 3mbps gear up, they had a 99% business
network and that they had 0% LOS to any client. I never bothered to
check
out their clients or how they were installed, but jumped at the
opportunity
to buy them out at a great price. When I did get the deal done I soon
realized the gear they were running far exceeded what I had in store. I
did
have to place 900MHz gear to replace the Alvarion 3mbps FHSS to
establish
and maintain those connections. These folks didn't know sheet from
shinola,
but they had a nice WISP and all they could say was Alvarion. They
never
bothered to further themselves education wise, but called on Trango to
buy
more 

Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Rich Comroe
We typically make customer contact when a customer shows up as a regular on our 
1Gbyte Honor Roll (a daily list of everyone with = 1Gbyte in or out in the 
past 24 hrs).  Often we find they are infected, but sometimes P2Pers.  We crank 
down their CIR if they don't clean up until they are off that 1GByte list.

Rich

  - Original Message - 
  From: Jonathan Schmidt 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 11:37 AM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


  True, Matt, often a better way.

  Now, what to do with P2P abusers?

   . . j o n a t h a n

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Matt Liotta
  Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:39 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

  You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's 
  customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in 
  transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various 
  CDNs. If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't 
  pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast.

  -Matt

  Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
   Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget
  
   The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes
   stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads,
  anti-virus
   vendor downloads, etc.  It's really great since the latency vanishes and I
   note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per
   second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the
   large XP window size with latencies to the original sites.
  
   However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of
  being
   cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai
   doesn't care.
  
   It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is
   likely the source of a lot of network load.
  
   It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation
  and,
   although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache.
  
   . . . j o n a t h a n
  
  
   -Original Message-
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
   Behalf Of Travis Johnson
   Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM
   To: WISPA General List
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
  
   Hi,
  
   We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to 
   play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug 
   everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. 
   and don't allow you access whatsoever.
  
   But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps 
   speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea 
   who to contact, as we were approached by them.
  
   Travis
   Microserv
  
   David E. Smith wrote:
 
   George Rogato wrote:
  
   
   You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to 
   have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on 
   your network. All free.
 
   Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've 
   heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC 
   to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go 
   about getting one.
  
   David Smith
   MVN.net
   

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Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Matt Liotta

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:

True, Matt, often a better way.

Now, what to do with P2P abusers?
  

Sell them more bandwidth?

-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas.
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,
unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.  TVCABO bought it to
deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing
their byte cap limit.

I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel
to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in
Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off,
the up-sell is easier before than after.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 True, Matt, often a better way.

 Now, what to do with P2P abusers?
   
Sell them more bandwidth?

-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Brad Belton
Hello Rich,

Exactly my point and exactly why users operating in the unlicensed spectrum
need as many tools available at their disposal as possible.  My criticism
and suggestions have been to illuminate just those features as extremely
valuable to guys like me that sell CIR not MIR.  

Frankly the DP  DB features should be extremely valuable to any unlicensed
operator regardless of the business plan.  How can it be that greater
flexibility as I have described isn't going to better a product?

Just like many believe ATPC should be mandatory on all future unlicensed
products I believe DP  DB should be mandatory!  Not going to happen, but
the products that do offer these features will be superior in their
abilities to avoid and/or work around interference.

Best,


Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Comroe
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:56 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

There's no unlicensed product which guarantees business class services in
interference.  To suggest product A does and product B doesn't is nonsense.
I think you've done a good job of describing why you think some products do
a better job of than others.  That's fair.  Sharing experiences where one
product did better than another is fair.  I love reading your posts and
others comparing the attributes which impact on this.  It's educational and
I get insights into equipment that I haven't personally had direct
experience.  But the constant bashing that some product will guarantee
business class services in interference and another won't is tiresome, and
just turns people off from the good content that people appreciate.

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brad Belton 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:26 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Certainly you can do committed rate business class services with
unlicensed
  products.  WMUX, Terabridge, Trango just to name a few.  Are they
  interchangeable in application?  Nope, they require you use the right
  product for the job at hand.  What may work well on one project may not on
  the next.

  Interference typically isn't temporary...at least not around these parts!
  No, you need to engineer the link with enough forethought and available
  tools on hand to give yourself options in the event a link does begin to
  incur interference.

  In our experience the VL was erratic in its ability to consistently
produce
  the same end result day in and day out.  Alvarion, me and the third party
  client all knew before hand the site was very RF unfriendly.  I visited
the
  site personally to run surveys before any gear was deployed.  We spent the
  better part of a month with Alvarion trying to get the VL to produce a
  consistent level of throughput at any level without success.  Just as I
  began to believe we had it licked we would get another call from the
client.
  The really frustrating part of all this is the throughput would vary
  depending on just how busy the other gear in the area was.  The busiest
  times of day is when we realized the link really suffered.

  I felt obligated to share our VL results here because Marlon indicated he
  was looking for a business class product.  VL is not that...at least not
in
  our book.

  Best,


  Brad



  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Rich Comroe
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:35 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  Products that are best effort [snip product name]
  end up making guys like us look bad.

  I'm confused how can anyone do better than best effort in unlicensed
  spectrum, regardless of manufacturer?

  There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
  getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

  If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a
  licensed channel can accomplish that?

  Rich
- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton 
To: 'WISPA General List' 
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not
produce
the results we are after then we look at other products.  We will not
tie
our hands to one brand.  No reason to.

Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on.  Yes,
  CIR
is what we sell not MIR.  That may be a good thing for us or it may turn
  out
to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to
deliver.  

Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look
bad.
There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
getting a call saying they are getting something less than 

RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread CHUCK PROFITO
John, will this code say any thing I want it to, like pay up or else  If
you sell it, any deals for members?
Chuck 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:12 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas.
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,
unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.  TVCABO bought it to
deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing
their byte cap limit.

I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel
to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in
Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off,
the up-sell is easier before than after.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 True, Matt, often a better way.

 Now, what to do with P2P abusers?
   
Sell them more bandwidth?

-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

2006-12-27 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
Chuck, maybe that's ...sort of...well, the American spirit.  I'd rather
anything than a rope around me.  I pay $6/mo., or more, to my VoIP provider
so that I have no limit on calls (to Europe or Asia!) rather than have to
pay a couple cents a minute over 500 minutes a month.  OK, so $22 vs. $16
isn't a big deal, but it demonstrates my point.

I know I'm losing.  But, I can't stand thinking about it.  So, I pay for
unlimited time. 

Perhaps that's why the unlimited Internet byte access is more interesting
here to subscribers than in Europe or Latin America.

Who knows?  I get mad just thinking about it and feel better knowing that
it's not a problem for me...I pay and feel unconstrained.  A simple $6 is
certainly cheaper than a psychiatrist for five minutes.  Come to think of
it, that won't even buy 5 minutes from one of them.  Such a deal!

Anyway, it's an interesting difference between the cultures as to what is a
comfortable subscription plan.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:16 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps

John, will this code say any thing I want it to, like pay up or else  If
you sell it, any deals for members?
Chuck 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:12 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps


Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas.
In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like,
unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display.  TVCABO bought it to
deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing
their byte cap limit.

I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel
to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in
Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off,
the up-sell is easier before than after.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
 True, Matt, often a better way.

 Now, what to do with P2P abusers?
   
Sell them more bandwidth?

-Matt

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