RE: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:40:07 -0600 (CST), Butch Evans wrote On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: Uhmm, Butch... No, they're not asking for a means. They're insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to provide them data in a specific form. And what form is that data going to take? You don't know. You are being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over something you don't even KNOW. THAT is what I said. Why shouldn't I? It's an unfunded federal mandate on private enterprise, completely without justification, in my view. How could ANYONE possibly defend it? The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering information for criminal prosecutions. Oh? What could possibly be denying them this? Nothing. There's no reason they should make ALL OF US PAY TO BUILD IT ALL FOR THEM WHETHER IT IS NEEDED OR NOT. Even you can't deny that. That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the ISP level. WHY? Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS. It happens behind every ISP who decides that NAT is necessary. Sorry, but that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on YOUR network. They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific suspect. Following your logic, it won't be long when network design, practices, and even equipment choices will all be federally regulated to improve this. Can't afford it? Who the bloody hell cares, the GOVERNMENT MUST HAVE IT sigh THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less. REALLY? Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at you. Here are SOME of the things you said: SNIP I said that not resisting regulation would kill us. So, you don't believe this? How could you NOT??? CALEA is the tip of the iceburg. The process has begun. We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and bleating softly. Been nice knowing you folks. /SNIP and here SNIP the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. /SNIP It certainly has. There is no means of connecting a person to the internet that is now NOT federally controlled. If you can think of a way, tell us. I'm all ears. Heck, I'm ready to switch now. and here SNIP You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. /SNIP So, you think the big guys aren't going to lobby for things that benefit them, while we have no voice or consideration because don't have billions to lobby with? and here SNIP we need to work at launching the largest industry and public backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff... /SNIP Perhaps I'm the only one reading alarmist into your words... Yes, you SHOULD be alarmed. We should have been ALARMED A LONG TIME AGO. Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and grabbing the data they wanted. Which, in my view, is fair and equitable. Why should we all pay for and design a network around some system few will ever use? Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be designed around anything. Well, I haven't got a dollar to bet... but I BET YOU WILL. CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP. The FCC and DOJ have broadened its meaning all on their own. No, it wasn't written for that purpose. But, the world is not the same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned. Times change and so do the laws. My only suggestion is to do 2 things: 1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it. If you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished. 2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is a government conspiracy to put you out of business. I don't assume any such thing. It's JUST THE NATURE OF GOVERNMENT TO FAVOR THE WEALTHY AND INFLUENTIAL over the interests of those of us who are not. OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds... Sure Butch. Looks like you've been on yours WAY too long. All that valium musta numbed you totally. I said that when our leaders openly promoted the FCC placing us all under federal regulation that this WOULD happen. CALEA is the first. Now, for everyone else. There will be a LONG list... there will be homeland security, there will be fairness doctrine where we have to gaurantee full connectivity, there will be social policy (must provide to those who don't pay the bill) and the list will go on and on. YOU WILL GO UNDER from these mandates. It may not be this year or next year,
RE: [WISPA] anyone used high powered deliberant?
Actually we have recently added an LNA to this product that boosts the receive sensitivity to -91 @ 11Mbps (same as the DLB25xx). We haven't had time to update all the product docs yet but will hopefully get to it today or tomorrow. -Hal Harold Bledsoe Deliberant LLC 800.742.9865 x205 (office) 404.693.0660 (cell) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.deliberant.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:58 AM To: WISPA General List Cc: isp-wireless@isp-wireless.com Subject: [WISPA] anyone used high powered deliberant? Hi All, I have to put in a system that'll do 17 miles ptp. I can do it today with a 500mw amp and 8dB omni. Anyone used one of these? http://www.gnswireless.com/DLB2700.htm Is there any receive gain on them? If it's only -80ish receive sensitivity it won't be able to do the same range as a standard radio/amp combo. I am space limited at that tower site so this would be a nice solution that would allow me to gain back quite a bit of room. But whatever I put in has to work with my existing customers at that site. thoughts? marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
I misunderstood this initially also, but the Feds do NOT have access to your network. They have to provide you with a subpoena and then you have (generally) 48 hours to provide them with the traffic stream. I do agree that it is an unfunded mandate, but I don't see any way around it. You do get a chance at recovering some money when you get your first subpoena...that's why I prefer the TTP plans that are light on front-end and monthly fees. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: This is the FCC declaring that EVERY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BE PRE-TAPPED at the expense of industry. WHAT? You are not correct. This is the LEA asking for a means to collect data on suspected criminals. They will have to have a subpoena to gather the data, and they do not automatically get access to your network data. You are being alarmist and aren't even informed enough to understand what CALEA is. Who's that looking over your shoulder...You should be careful not to fall asleep, because they are watching your bedroom right now. They watch ALL our bedrooms (and kitchens, too). They can read all our email, too. In fact, the post office opens every letter that passes through to send faxes to the government of all the mail, so they'll have it on record. I've heard that the trees are on their side, too! SHEESH! You ARE tiring. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
We are just deploying a new IOS image that includes Cisco's SII architecture. Our only cost is time. -Matt Rick Smith wrote: OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ? How much is it costing you ? What technology ? How would you provide the hook in so the FBI could just listen in at any time (is that the way it works ? Or do they still need to provide a subpoena...) ? Others I'm sure will come up.. R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
My understanding is that only broadband providers are responsible to be compliant. In order to be a broadband provider you have to offer symmetrical 200kb+ service. Anthony Broadband Corp. Jason wrote: 1. Here's a question: for those who don't have symmetric rates to/from the internet (I have 1meg down and , supposedly 128k up, but often it's something like 24 up, satellite you know...) streaming just will not work. Can we store and forward? Or in general, are they taking into account the technology being used and its capabilities? 2. Anyone know anything about these (price etc): http://www.netoptics.com/products/product_family.asp?cid=1Section=productsmenuitem=1filter=3 they make it sound as though they are most of the solution: http://www.netoptics.com/pdf/CALEA_Brief.pdf Jason George Rogato wrote: Well ask a question and we'll see. Guess if I'm supposed to be the messenger, it's me. If someone wants me to go and ask ridiculous politically radical questions, then forget about it. They can just dial the number and ask themselves. But a non political real question is no problem. George JohnnyO wrote: George - who decides what is reasonable or not ? Is this a personal decision ? Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid and should be asked on behalf of WISPA. JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] anyone used high powered deliberant?
Marlon- We have three of them in testing. So far, I'm pretty impressed. They have a newer iteration that had a preamp built in, so the sensitivity is very good. Stay away from the Amp and try the Deliberant. That FCC sticker on the side is your friend if/when you get a visit from Uncle Charlie. The outdoor enclosure they provide is awesome. Of course I COULD be prejudiced because they are based near me in Atlanta GA, but I'm not. Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:58 AM To: WISPA General List Cc: isp-wireless@isp-wireless.com Subject: [WISPA] anyone used high powered deliberant? Hi All, I have to put in a system that'll do 17 miles ptp. I can do it today with a 500mw amp and 8dB omni. Anyone used one of these? http://www.gnswireless.com/DLB2700.htm Is there any receive gain on them? If it's only -80ish receive sensitivity it won't be able to do the same range as a standard radio/amp combo. I am space limited at that tower site so this would be a nice solution that would allow me to gain back quite a bit of room. But whatever I put in has to work with my existing customers at that site. thoughts? marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
HEAD ON - Apply directly to your forehead! On 2/13/07, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is likely to break down, although this disorder is more common in people with a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and borderline types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows: The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally sanctioned response: 1. Delusions 2. Hallucinations 3. Speech that is markedly disorganized 4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic. The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers completely. The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition. Sincerely, Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wispa Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but I don't have time to give a crap about calea. I'm taking advantage of an industry organization to do something on my behalf, because I can't have the time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking after finding out I DIDN'T file... I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file. Many won't even know they have to. Just think, EVERY block size network. If you build out for your neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU are now dead. You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments about packet monitoring being OK for compliance, and I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is probably a necessary evil. You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed extortion for the little guys. Paying a TPP for snooping on your customers is just crap. But, what are you going to do ? You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business. Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
OK folks - Most of you are in rural areas where you are the only choice for broadband. You need to advise your subscribers and your congressional representatives of the hardship this will cause. Perhaps if they lose votes, they will help. -RickG On 2/13/07, Dave Brenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Include me in WISPA 445 Filing I Guess. I Mean we are not yet operational so there is nothing to monitor as of this date. So including us in may be the INCORRECT move at this time. it's RTWB, LLC dba Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband Dave Brenton General Manager Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband Bringing FAST Internet to the rest of us (sm) Dover TN (931) 232-0914 office (931) 627-1142 cell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Matt - Do you have a link to this, or an IOS train number? I couldn't find it on CCO. I know Cisco has a solution, just haven't been able to find much about it. Thanks, Russ Kreigh Network Engineer OnlyInternet.Net Broadband Wireless Supernova Technologies Office: (800) 363-0989 Direct: (260) 827-2486 Fax:(260) 824-9624 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oibw.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:00 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 We are just deploying a new IOS image that includes Cisco's SII architecture. Our only cost is time. -Matt Rick Smith wrote: OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ? How much is it costing you ? What technology ? How would you provide the hook in so the FBI could just listen in at any time (is that the way it works ? Or do they still need to provide a subpoena...) ? Others I'm sure will come up.. R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/routers/ps352/prod_bulletin0900aecd802d2ed0.html -Matt Russ Kreigh wrote: Matt - Do you have a link to this, or an IOS train number? I couldn't find it on CCO. I know Cisco has a solution, just haven't been able to find much about it. Thanks, Russ Kreigh Network Engineer OnlyInternet.Net Broadband Wireless Supernova Technologies Office: (800) 363-0989 Direct: (260) 827-2486 Fax:(260) 824-9624 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oibw.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:00 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 We are just deploying a new IOS image that includes Cisco's SII architecture. Our only cost is time. -Matt Rick Smith wrote: OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ? How much is it costing you ? What technology ? How would you provide the hook in so the FBI could just listen in at any time (is that the way it works ? Or do they still need to provide a subpoena...) ? Others I'm sure will come up.. R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] RE: 445
So what are people who are filing doing to become compliant by May? Are there specific products being used? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Mark, You keep saying that the government is killing you, and yet we keep getting posts from you...indicating to me that you're still in business. What's up with that? Mark Nash Network Engineer UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:32 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:22:12 -0600, JohnnyO wrote I'm not a pessimist at all. I just know what federal regulation means. It means WE GO AWAY. Federal regulation is the DEATH of small business. I have no doubt the Telcos and Cablecos are no doubt celebrating big time. What they could not do to wipe out competition the federal government does for them. Doom and Gloom eh Mark ? Damn man - the big pessimist (sp?) JohnnyO Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Looks like these platforms are supported: 1-pre2 1-pre3 7200 7301 as5350 as5350xm as5400 as5400hpx as5400xm as5850-ersc as5850-rsc -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] So what do you think
Mark, With CFR Part-15 rules we did ask for and received relaxing of the qualifications for certification of systems to allow for lower cost certification of legal systems using multiple combinations of antennas with radios. We saved WISPs money and made it easier for WISPs to meet the rules. In CALEA the law enforcement agencies have requested the ability to monitor a stream of data in and out of a single customer the same way they monitor a telephone conversation using the wiretapping rules of this country which have been in place for a very long time. Meeting CALEA requirements is not really going to be one of those things that our government is going to ignore. As a trade organization I believe it is our job, in WISPA, to develop a standard by which our operators can easily and cost effectively meet the CALEA legal requirements. Step one of that process is to file the Form 445. We have an attorney doing this for us now. We will be working toward meeting all legal requirements. If we see government making bad decisions and creating barriers which we believe will hurt our operator's then we will speak up. They will listen to us. They will not have much choice. There will be 6 of us in D.C. over the next 2 weeks working on CALEA, 04-186 and other issues. We will find a practical approach which we can all live with. I have no intention of paying large sums of money to meet these requirements. This is a bright group. We will build the standard for this industry and it will be straight forward, cost effective and rational. It will not be an arcane, expensive, impractical approach as many believe will be the case with CALEA. If the government impedes the ability for us to meet these requirements with our standard then we will work until we get it right. In short, I want to see CALEA compliance being as easy as setting up a domain in a web and email server. I think these are good goals for us in regard to CALEA. Scriv wispa wrote: So, what do you think CALEA compliance will cost you? Got a number yet, or have you promised compliance without knowing the price tag? I said that not resisting regulation would kill us. The process has begun. We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and bleating softly. Been nice knowing you folks. Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Question 1. If WISPA develops an industry standard which meets all the technical and legal requirements of the law, will law enforcement accept our data stream from whatever standard we develop? Question 2. Will your office allow us to have a system or process certified as being CALEA Compliant? Question 3. Will we have some other standard forced upon us that we do not have a part in developing? Question 4. If a small operator cannot meet the requirements then what remedy is available to him in order to not lose his business? Question 5. Will there be grants available to small operators to meet CALEA rules? Question 6. Can we apply for and receive extensions for meeting the CALEA requirements? (In case we do not have everything ready by May) Please ask those on our behalf and send us the results when you return. Thanks George! Scriv George Rogato wrote: wispa wrote: You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, John Scrivner wrote: Question 1. If WISPA develops an industry standard which meets all the technical and legal requirements of the law, will law enforcement accept our data stream from whatever standard we develop? In addition to this, how about adding the idea of bandwidth cost. If we are to be required to stream data, we are doubling the utilization for that one customer (plus a little overhead) on our upstream pipes. There are WISPs who use DSL or satellite as their internet feed, and these technologies would certainly be impaired by adding an upstream feed equal to the combined total of upload and download for even one busy customer. How do we address this issue? Question 3. Will we have some other standard forced upon us that we do not have a part in developing? Perhaps acceptance of an already developed standard such as PCAP would be appropriate. This is a low cost option that is readily accessible to even the smallest ISPs. Question 4. If a small operator cannot meet the requirements then what remedy is available to him in order to not lose his business? This is, perhaps, the question of the day. Question 5. Will there be grants available to small operators to meet CALEA rules? If a standard such as PCAP with store and forward is acceptable, then this is not going to be needed, as a solution based on this would be very inexpensive. It would be less than $1k, including any switch upgrades that may be needed. Question 6. Can we apply for and receive extensions for meeting the CALEA requirements? (In case we do not have everything ready by May) Wasn't there something like a $5k filing fee for this? Seems like I read that somewhere...I can't remember. Please add my thoughts to your Q A process, George. And (in case it hasn't been said), thanks to you and your team for taking the time and expense of going. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Mark said: So, you think the big guys aren't going to lobby for things that benefit them, while we have no voice or consideration because don't have billions to lobby with? We have people going to D.C. to meet with the FBI directly to help get this all worked out. How much more representation can you have? I have not heard anything but supportive efforts coming from WISPA and the government officials we have spoken to about this. There is no conspiracy to do anything but stop the bad guys. I don't want people using my network to hurt other people so from that standpoint I think there can be positive effects of this. I do not like to see government snooping but I do not know how else they can find and stop criminals who use the Internet. Any other scenario I can think of seems worse than what is being proposed. I think we can assume from this point forward that Mark wants nothing to do with this effort other than to derail the process if possible. I assure you we are trying to do our best to balance the needs of the government and the needs of our WISP operators who we serve. That is the agenda. If anyone has questions they think are worthy of response from the FBI please send them on to this list. George will be going there to get us a path for developing a standard by which our fellow WISP operators can run their businesss without giving too much thought to CALEA. The only people who will go broke because of CALEA will be those who refuse to follow the law. For those people I am guessing CALEA will be only one factor which leads to their demise. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
I have not spent one penny on CALEA yet. I know I will but I bet it will not be much and I bet this will all look like sky is falling dialog when it is all said and done. I remember the day that K-Mart said they were going to give away free dialup nationwide. I think that was around 2000. Now that scared me. Funny thing was I grew more that month than any other prior. CALEA does not scare me at all. The only thing the big boys are getting from all of this is a good laugh at folks who decide this is going to be a make or break for them. Fear is not worthy of your time. Stop worrying and run your business. Let WISPA take the heat of making CALEA something you can dodge with ease. That is our job. If CALEA takes more than $250 bucks out of your pocket and 2 hours away from your business then I will feel I have not done a very good job. I could be wrong but you know what? I am not going to worry about it. :-) Scriv Rick Smith wrote: Was it being alarmist to shout the redcoats are coming! ? I understand no one knows the format of the data yet. But the truth is that CALEA is an attempt to put the trigger there, get us to go broke funding it, and let them pull it any time they want... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: Uhmm, Butch... No, they're not asking for a means. They're insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to provide them data in a specific form. And what form is that data going to take? You don't know. You are being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over something you don't even KNOW. THAT is what I said. The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering information for criminal prosecutions. Even you can't deny that. That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the ISP level. WHY? Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS. It happens behind every ISP who decides that NAT is necessary. Sorry, but that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on YOUR network. They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific suspect. THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less. REALLY? Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at you. Here are SOME of the things you said: SNIP I said that not resisting regulation would kill us. The process has begun. We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and bleating softly. Been nice knowing you folks. /SNIP and here SNIP the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. /SNIP and here SNIP You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. /SNIP and here SNIP we need to work at launching the largest industry and public backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff... /SNIP Perhaps I'm the only one reading alarmist into your words... Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and grabbing the data they wanted. Which, in my view, is fair and equitable. Why should we all pay for and design a network around some system few will ever use? Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be designed around anything. CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP. The FCC and DOJ have broadened its meaning all on their own. No, it wasn't written for that purpose. But, the world is not the same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned. Times change and so do the laws. My only suggestion is to do 2 things: 1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it. If you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished. 2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is a government conspiracy to put you out of business. OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds... -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] anyone used high powered deliberant?
Harold, As with your other products, this is certified with the FCC with your antennas, correct? Thanks, Scriv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Actually we have recently added an LNA to this product that boosts the receive sensitivity to -91 @ 11Mbps (same as the DLB25xx). We haven't had time to update all the product docs yet but will hopefully get to it today or tomorrow. -Hal Harold Bledsoe Deliberant LLC 800.742.9865 x205 (office) 404.693.0660 (cell) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.deliberant.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:58 AM To: WISPA General List Cc: isp-wireless@isp-wireless.com Subject: [WISPA] anyone used high powered deliberant? Hi All, I have to put in a system that'll do 17 miles ptp. I can do it today with a 500mw amp and 8dB omni. Anyone used one of these? http://www.gnswireless.com/DLB2700.htm Is there any receive gain on them? If it's only -80ish receive sensitivity it won't be able to do the same range as a standard radio/amp combo. I am space limited at that tower site so this would be a nice solution that would allow me to gain back quite a bit of room. But whatever I put in has to work with my existing customers at that site. thoughts? marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
What can you tell us about the mediation box? Is this something we can build a few of as WISPA and send to members who need it? Thanks, Scriv Jeff Broadwick wrote: Actually, the standard for connecting the mediation box to the LEA (known as LAES) has been finalized. The standard for connecting from the router to the mediation box (T1-IAS I believe) will be finalized later this month. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote: OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that the format of the data has not, yet, been finalized. This makes it impossible (IMNSHO) to determine exactly how compliance is gonna look. Here is what IS known: 1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law enforcement agency) 2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on a specific customer. 3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from that customer. This means even traffic between that customer and another of your customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough. 4. The target cannot know his data is being logged. I don't think I missed any of the major points. I have heard that PCAP (tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be an approved format, but it CANNOT be a store and forward. In other words, it MUST be streamed to the LEA. I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate member) that the principle member's list has better insight into what WISPA is doing on behalf of the membership. (This was gleaned from various posts on the mailing list here, and is just an assumption.) Either way, membership is a good idea. ;-) If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Me as well, if you didn't imply that from the private email this morning. Sandhills Wireless, LLC Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Tim Wolfe wrote: Get me in there!. Include me in WISPA 445 Filing WaveCrazy Communications Rick Herrmann wrote: Include me in WISPA 445 Filing Zing LLC Thanks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 2:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Form 445 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org. John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] RE: 445
WISPA is working with the FBI and others to develop a plan for all of us. One of the first things we will do is request an extension of the deadline since the requirements have not even been fully developed yet. Scriv Martha Huizenga wrote: So what are people who are filing doing to become compliant by May? Are there specific products being used? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Butch, Here's a decient paper based on the european version of calea. http://www.aqsacomna.com/us/articles/LIIPWhitePaperv21.pdf Ed On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:33:55 -0600 (CST) Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SO..for a WISPA built mediation box, you could simply put together a Linux server and a $100 switch. But, in the end, we have to wait to see what format is required before it is possible to truly answer this question. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Form 445
John Scrivner said I think we can assume from this point forward that Mark wants nothing to do with this effort other than to derail the process if possible. I assure you we are trying to do our best to balance the needs of the government and the needs of our WISP operators who we serve. John - with all due respect - I do not assume or think or believe Mark is trying to derail the process. Mark has a valid point and he sees things from a different perspective sometimes. That is what makes us more powerful as a group of operators is to have insight and thoughts and opinions from as many different people as possible. Some people may not like or agree with what Mark has said - but the same people that personally attacked him over this issue, have in the past said some really stupid remarks / comments as well and from them. Regards, JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 Mark said: So, you think the big guys aren't going to lobby for things that benefit them, while we have no voice or consideration because don't have billions to lobby with? We have people going to D.C. to meet with the FBI directly to help get this all worked out. How much more representation can you have? I have not heard anything but supportive efforts coming from WISPA and the government officials we have spoken to about this. There is no conspiracy to do anything but stop the bad guys. I don't want people using my network to hurt other people so from that standpoint I think there can be positive effects of this. I do not like to see government snooping but I do not know how else they can find and stop criminals who use the Internet. Any other scenario I can think of seems worse than what is being proposed. That is the agenda. If anyone has questions they think are worthy of response from the FBI please send them on to this list. George will be going there to get us a path for developing a standard by which our fellow WISP operators can run their businesss without giving too much thought to CALEA. The only people who will go broke because of CALEA will be those who refuse to follow the law. For those people I am guessing CALEA will be only one factor which leads to their demise. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 1:23 PM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445
Let me ask a stupid question. Why is it not the FEDS job to translate data as they see fit? George, please ask that question when you see the FBI. This one is very important to me. I am also copying our attorney, Kris Twomey, on this particular issue. This sounds like a bunch of crapola if Uncle Sam is expecting us to manipulate / translate the data in any way beyond the raw form. This sounds like their job to me. Scriv Jeff Broadwick wrote: Hi John, The two I'm aware of are SS8 and Verint. They are very expensive. The mediation device takes in the IP traffic from the ISP's router and translates it into the LAES format that the Feds require, and sends it along. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 What can you tell us about the mediation box? Is this something we can build a few of as WISPA and send to members who need it? Thanks, Scriv Jeff Broadwick wrote: Actually, the standard for connecting the mediation box to the LEA (known as LAES) has been finalized. The standard for connecting from the router to the mediation box (T1-IAS I believe) will be finalized later this month. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote: OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA. The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that the format of the data has not, yet, been finalized. This makes it impossible (IMNSHO) to determine exactly how compliance is gonna look. Here is what IS known: 1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law enforcement agency) 2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on a specific customer. 3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from that customer. This means even traffic between that customer and another of your customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough. 4. The target cannot know his data is being logged. I don't think I missed any of the major points. I have heard that PCAP (tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be an approved format, but it CANNOT be a store and forward. In other words, it MUST be streamed to the LEA. I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate member) that the principle member's list has better insight into what WISPA is doing on behalf of the membership. (This was gleaned from various posts on the mailing list here, and is just an assumption.) Either way, membership is a good idea. ;-) If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] 445 Filing forWISPA Members
The list of those to include on the WISPA group 445 filing has been sent to Kris Twomey who is our attorney for CALEA issues. If others here wish to be included you will need to contact me via telephone at 618-237-2387 as soon as possible to be included. If you are a WISPA Principal Member then you should have seen the request which was sent to Kris and copied to the Principal Member's list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you are not getting email from that list and you are a paid member then you need to register on that list right away. Go to: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/WISP and register there now. Once your membership status has been confirmed you will be allowed to post and receive mail from that list. Most discussion about WISPA's work on this effort will be directed there though general discussion will still happen on the public list. Thanks to all of you who have agreed to be part of the unified effort by WISPA to build an industry standard for CALEA compliance. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
Anthony, I hate to burst your bubble. This is a quote from the following page; http://www.fcc.gov/calea/ Common carriers, facilities-based broadband Internet access providers, and providers of interconnected Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) service – all three types of entities are defined to be “telecommunications carriers” for purposes of CALEA section 102, 47 U.S.C. § 1001 – must comply with the CALEA obligations set forth in CALEA section 103, 47 U.S.C. § 1002. See CALEA First Report and Order (rel. Sept. 23, 2005). Following is the link for CALEA First Report and Order; http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-153A1.pdf Page 5 gives the definition of telecommunications carrier according to CALEA. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Anthony Will wrote: My understanding is that only broadband providers are responsible to be compliant. In order to be a broadband provider you have to offer symmetrical 200kb+ service. Anthony Broadband Corp. Jason wrote: 1. Here's a question: for those who don't have symmetric rates to/from the internet (I have 1meg down and , supposedly 128k up, but often it's something like 24 up, satellite you know...) streaming just will not work. Can we store and forward? Or in general, are they taking into account the technology being used and its capabilities? 2. Anyone know anything about these (price etc): http://www.netoptics.com/products/product_family.asp?cid=1Section=productsmenuitem=1filter=3 they make it sound as though they are most of the solution: http://www.netoptics.com/pdf/CALEA_Brief.pdf Jason George Rogato wrote: Well ask a question and we'll see. Guess if I'm supposed to be the messenger, it's me. If someone wants me to go and ask ridiculous politically radical questions, then forget about it. They can just dial the number and ask themselves. But a non political real question is no problem. George JohnnyO wrote: George - who decides what is reasonable or not ? Is this a personal decision ? Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid and should be asked on behalf of WISPA. JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 wispa wrote: You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a profit center. Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds and ask them some questions, go for it. But the offer still stands. Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I will be glad to ask. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] IMPORTANT
If you are a paid member of WISPA and your company is not listed below or needs edited please let me know immediately. This is the final edited list of those which will be included in the 445 filing unless I hear something right away from others. My cell number is 618-237-2387 if you email me and do not get a response right away today. I am sorry this is going out on the public list but I need to make sure newer people who may not be on the member's only list yet see this to make sure they are all included.. Mt. Vernon. Net, Inc. Odessa Office Equipment Maximum Access, L.L.C. Yellowstone Media Design Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. Precision Data Solutions, LLC Wisper ISP, Inc. CV-Access, Inc. Pure Internet Vogel Enterprises Washington Broadband, Inc. Primaverity LLC Technology Services Inc. Zing LLC RTPS Networks, Inc. Intelliwave, LLC Computer Sales Services, Inc. NetsurfUSA, Inc. Hofnet Communications, Inc. COLI Inc. APGWireless, LLC Kaballero.Com BelWave Communications, Inc. Coffey Computers, LLC Rabbit Meadows Technology, LLC InvisiMax Inc. UnwiredOnline.Net, LLC Inventive Wireless of Nebraska, LLC WaveCrazy Communications Willow Creek Computer Systems, LLC. RTWB, LLC Xpressweb Internet Services Rapid Systems Corporation AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. Kinex Networking Solutions, Inc Comnett Computer Services Sandhills Wireless -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] New WISPA Member
Please help me welcome Chris and Kathryn Cooper of Intelliwave LLC. They are one of WISPA's newest Principal Members. We have quite a run of new membership of late. We thank each and every one of you for taking this important step to help show support for your industry. WISPA is the voice of WISPs and we need all your voices. Each of you that have joined have done something great for your industry. You have shown you want to stand and be counted among your peers. You show you care enough to be a professional and to make sure this industry has the representation we need. Together we can all work for a better industry and I am proud to welcome Chris and Kathryn among our ranks. Here are a few words from Chris about himself, his wife and their company: Intelliwave, LLC was founded by Chris and Kathryn Cooper in 2001. Working together as a husband/wife team has been a great experience for us. Prior to founding Intelliwave, we founded and operated a regional dial-up ISP. We are located in Athens, Ohio in the SE corner of the state. Our services include 900 Mhz rural residential, ptp business and long haul private data networks. Additionally, our proximity to Ohio University and its 20,000+ student population gives us the opportunity to offer Internet services to off campus student housing. We provide these services via wireless, our own Dslams and an ad-hoc mesh. I’ve found the WISPA list to be an invaluable resource for us and am proud to finally become a full member of WISPA. John’s constant admonitions to join were creating some heavy guilt on my part. I’m glad to put that behind me. Chris Cooper Intelliwave, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] State Leader's needed
One thing I noticed is the state lists aren't mentioned or linked from the web pages at www.wispa.org. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Rick Harnish wrote: As most of you know, we have a mailing list for every state designed specifically for WISPs to communicate with each other on a more local basis to keep up with legislative issues and local opportunities. We really need someone to step up in each state and try to organize each of these lists and invite other WISPs in your state to subscribe. The subscription address is http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/indiana but you should replace Indiana with the state you want to subscribe to such as http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/montana. You can also go to http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo to see all the lists that we operate. We have about 50 members here in Indiana and have had several state WISPA meetings to coordinate efforts and develop opportunities between each other. If you can help out this effort let me know. It is a great way to develop our industry further and communicate with state officials in a more efficient manner. For instance, our state broadband coordinator is welcome to make a post to the list if he has someone call in looking for service in a certain area. It's a good way to quickly pass the leads on to the providers. Thanks, Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Thanks Butch, What about VLAN Packet Loss on the RB44
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007, Don Annas wrote: Thank you very much for the clarification. I have also noticed that we have MUCH better luck w/ the GIG RB syncing w/ a gig port on the Cisco 2960. This is good news, too. I wonder if it is because of the chipsets that are used for the Cisco or on the MT side? Either way, it's a benefit. One thing I have noticed is packet loss when configuring VLANs on the Mikrotik. When flooding small packet pings against a vlan interface on the Mikrotik (regardless of the switch), I have been seeing minor packet loss. I've heard this, but not seen it myself. I only have one customer who is using VLANs on a large scale, and his MT boxes are all using intel server cards, with 3.2GHz CPU or better. I know he does some significan VoIP traffic, so he has periods of multiple hundreds (thousands?) of pps with pretty small packets. I'll ask him if he has noticed this problem, but (because of who it is), I suspect that if he HAD seen it, I'd know about it. ;-) Out of curiosity, are you seeing this problem with the 10/100 cards or the gigabit cards or both? -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Personal Attacks and CALEA
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Harnish wrote: Please respect each other's opinions and avoid personal attacks of any nature. We have a challenge presented to us (CALEA) and we My comments were personal attacks and I should not have done that on the lists. They were intended to offset the FUD and (not sure how else to say it) absolute disinformation being posted by (mainly) one particular individual. However, this is not a good excuse for me to publically do what I did, and I apologise to all those on the list that had to tolerate that from me. In looking at the startup costs in working with a TTP, the quotes I have received so far are anywhere from $3000 to $1 for startup. If 100 WISPs put up $3000 it would pay for the mediation server platfform to become a TTP. Obviously someone would need to host the server and dispatch the These prices are stupid. There...I've said it. Now, let me tell a story. :-) A while back, I went looking at a town to provide them with wireless internet access. On the north and southwest corners of the town, there were towers. These towers were owned by American Tower and Cingular (respectively). In the north central part of town, standing about 125' tall was a water tower and another on the south side up on a hill was another 80' water tower. I approached the town to see if they would rent space on their water tower for some antennas. They were interested, but didn't have much of an idea how much to charge. I explained to them the deal I had with a neighboring town to do the same thing and told them the price their towers were worth to me. They told me the city council would have to discuss it and would decide in a couple weeks. No problem, right? Well, they decided to check with the two tower owners to get a feel for the value of their water towers. When I spoke to them again (following the city council meeting), I was informed that they would rent the space on their water tower for $2500/month (per tower). Bear in mind, this is a town of about 800 residents. This price was, of course, based on what they heard from Cingular. I tell that story (and I'm sure there are others that have similar) to say that the prices you see are based on the fact that historically, it is telcos that need these services. I think that the compliance requirements for transport providers is going to be MUCH easier (I'm working on a solution) and SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper. For the most part, I think you will find that out of pocket expenses will be MUCH lower than anyone expects. You don't have to even have devices physically on your network until you get a subpoena asking for data. You DO have only 2 hours to respond to certain types of subpoenas, however. At any rate, I didn't want to go into all of this with my apology being the primary reason I posted. Again, to those who were not the target of my personal attacks, I apologize. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] WA State WISPS
Hello all! I am looking at leasing space on the ground or on a tower owned by WA State Department of Natural Resources. When I look at the leasing brochure they list wireless broadband providers and cellular telephone carriers as a you must negotiate rate. So.. do any of you have existing leases? Are you willing to share ballpark figures for leasing space? Thanks! ryan ps: I joined and already posted this to the WA State WISPA list.. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Personal Attacks and CALEA
Butch, We are in total agreement. The prices I quoted are very out of line, typical get it while the getting's good pricing. Competition will solve that. You are working on a solution as well as others. I commend all vendors who see an opportunity here in the WISP and small ISP market niche. I find it funny how the telcos will invest in plant that will payback over 20-30 years but are trying to get the investment in their CALEA equipment paid back in less than 2 years. I guess I can't blame them, there is not much that is safe for 20 years in this day and age. I also believe there will be less expensive alternatives and our group of entrepreneurs will prove once again that we can get the same job done much more efficiently and quickly than the big boys who are trying to crush us. Keep up the good work Butch. Respectfully, Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 7:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Personal Attacks and CALEA On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Harnish wrote: Please respect each other's opinions and avoid personal attacks of any nature. We have a challenge presented to us (CALEA) and we My comments were personal attacks and I should not have done that on the lists. They were intended to offset the FUD and (not sure how else to say it) absolute disinformation being posted by (mainly) one particular individual. However, this is not a good excuse for me to publically do what I did, and I apologise to all those on the list that had to tolerate that from me. In looking at the startup costs in working with a TTP, the quotes I have received so far are anywhere from $3000 to $1 for startup. If 100 WISPs put up $3000 it would pay for the mediation server platfform to become a TTP. Obviously someone would need to host the server and dispatch the These prices are stupid. There...I've said it. Now, let me tell a story. :-) A while back, I went looking at a town to provide them with wireless internet access. On the north and southwest corners of the town, there were towers. These towers were owned by American Tower and Cingular (respectively). In the north central part of town, standing about 125' tall was a water tower and another on the south side up on a hill was another 80' water tower. I approached the town to see if they would rent space on their water tower for some antennas. They were interested, but didn't have much of an idea how much to charge. I explained to them the deal I had with a neighboring town to do the same thing and told them the price their towers were worth to me. They told me the city council would have to discuss it and would decide in a couple weeks. No problem, right? Well, they decided to check with the two tower owners to get a feel for the value of their water towers. When I spoke to them again (following the city council meeting), I was informed that they would rent the space on their water tower for $2500/month (per tower). Bear in mind, this is a town of about 800 residents. This price was, of course, based on what they heard from Cingular. I tell that story (and I'm sure there are others that have similar) to say that the prices you see are based on the fact that historically, it is telcos that need these services. I think that the compliance requirements for transport providers is going to be MUCH easier (I'm working on a solution) and SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper. For the most part, I think you will find that out of pocket expenses will be MUCH lower than anyone expects. You don't have to even have devices physically on your network until you get a subpoena asking for data. You DO have only 2 hours to respond to certain types of subpoenas, however. At any rate, I didn't want to go into all of this with my apology being the primary reason I posted. Again, to those who were not the target of my personal attacks, I apologize. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Form 445
The form does not mean that you are compliant. It's simply to let the FCC know where you are at in the process. Just tell them where you are at in getting compliant. You need to tell them what your plan is. Laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Martha Huizenga [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445 Ideas about how to fill out the form if you don't know how you would comply yet? Does anyone know if this is a required field? Can you just put not sure yet? Are there industry standards - can we put that we would follow the WISPA standard if it is not yet written? I appreciate the links from people - Cisco - works if you have Cisco installed and NetTap, not sure if this works for me or not yet. Martha John Scrivner wrote: I have not spent one penny on CALEA yet. I know I will but I bet it will not be much and I bet this will all look like sky is falling dialog when it is all said and done. I remember the day that K-Mart said they were going to give away free dialup nationwide. I think that was around 2000. Now that scared me. Funny thing was I grew more that month than any other prior. CALEA does not scare me at all. The only thing the big boys are getting from all of this is a good laugh at folks who decide this is going to be a make or break for them. Fear is not worthy of your time. Stop worrying and run your business. Let WISPA take the heat of making CALEA something you can dodge with ease. That is our job. If CALEA takes more than $250 bucks out of your pocket and 2 hours away from your business then I will feel I have not done a very good job. I could be wrong but you know what? I am not going to worry about it. :-) Scriv Rick Smith wrote: Was it being alarmist to shout the redcoats are coming! ? I understand no one knows the format of the data yet. But the truth is that CALEA is an attempt to put the trigger there, get us to go broke funding it, and let them pull it any time they want... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote: Uhmm, Butch... No, they're not asking for a means. They're insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to provide them data in a specific form. And what form is that data going to take? You don't know. You are being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over something you don't even KNOW. THAT is what I said. The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering information for criminal prosecutions. Even you can't deny that. That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the ISP level. WHY? Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS. It happens behind every ISP who decides that NAT is necessary. Sorry, but that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on YOUR network. They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific suspect. THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less. REALLY? Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at you. Here are SOME of the things you said: SNIP I said that not resisting regulation would kill us. The process has begun. We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and bleating softly. Been nice knowing you folks. /SNIP and here SNIP the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP business. /SNIP and here SNIP You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible. I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times. /SNIP and here SNIP we need to work at launching the largest industry and public backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff... /SNIP Perhaps I'm the only one reading alarmist into your words... Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and grabbing the data they wanted. Which, in my view, is fair and equitable. Why should we all pay for and design a network around some system few will ever use? Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be designed around anything. CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP. The FCC and DOJ have broadened its meaning all on their own. No, it wasn't written for that purpose. But, the world is not the same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned. Times change and so do the laws. My only suggestion is to do 2 things: 1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it. If you decide
Re: [WISPA] IMPORTANT
John, I'm sorry but I just read this email thread. If it's not too late, please include me in the 445 filing. Thanks, Jim in KC Jim Stout LTO Communications, LLC 15701 Henry Andrews Dr Pleasant Hill, MO 64080 (816) 305-1076 - Mobile (816) 497-0033 - Pager - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:06 PM Subject: [WISPA] IMPORTANT If you are a paid member of WISPA and your company is not listed below or needs edited please let me know immediately. This is the final edited list of those which will be included in the 445 filing unless I hear something right away from others. My cell number is 618-237-2387 if you email me and do not get a response right away today. I am sorry this is going out on the public list but I need to make sure newer people who may not be on the member's only list yet see this to make sure they are all included.. Mt. Vernon. Net, Inc. Odessa Office Equipment Maximum Access, L.L.C. Yellowstone Media Design Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. Precision Data Solutions, LLC Wisper ISP, Inc. CV-Access, Inc. Pure Internet Vogel Enterprises Washington Broadband, Inc. Primaverity LLC Technology Services Inc. Zing LLC RTPS Networks, Inc. Intelliwave, LLC Computer Sales Services, Inc. NetsurfUSA, Inc. Hofnet Communications, Inc. COLI Inc. APGWireless, LLC Kaballero.Com BelWave Communications, Inc. Coffey Computers, LLC Rabbit Meadows Technology, LLC InvisiMax Inc. UnwiredOnline.Net, LLC Inventive Wireless of Nebraska, LLC WaveCrazy Communications Willow Creek Computer Systems, LLC. RTWB, LLC Xpressweb Internet Services Rapid Systems Corporation AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. Kinex Networking Solutions, Inc Comnett Computer Services Sandhills Wireless -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Calling Forbes Mercy
Hiya Forbes, I tried calling you but you didn't answer. All I got was a message from a poor lost sole lamenting the loss of a loved one! baawhahahahahahahahahhaa ducking -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Last Call for 445 filing
If you guys want to be listed on the WISPA joint 445 filing and you were not in this first round 445 filing we sent earlier today then please get paid up and send me your request. It should say Include 'your company name' in the WISPA 445 Addendum. I will accept additions until noon on Friday central time. Paying your dues does not get you included by itself. You must send a request to be part of this particular filing as outlined above if you want to be part of this. After that if you have not paid and received confirmation from me that we have your 445 taken care of then you will be on your own for at least stage one which is to file form 445. This does not mean we will not start supporting your efforts later if you do not get on the bandwagon before Friday. By the way, if you are a new WISPA member which signed on in the last 48 hours please send a paragraph or two about you, your company, company history, where you serve, who you serve, etc. and send it straight to john at scrivner.com. I will introduce you to the members and let them know of your decision to join WISPA. Thanks to all of you who have joined. John Scrivner President WISPA No problem, just collect up all these late guys and I'll file an addendum. After they pay their dues... -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
