Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing

2007-03-16 Thread George Rogato

Whats the reliability factor?

I've been thinking of adding fso for a couple links now for a couple years.

Now I could put 100megs duplex to use rather than waste the spectrum.
But how well does this stuff stand up?
Haven't heard much about anyones experiences good or bad.

is it 6 9's?
does the power supplies burn out or the units need to be repaired often?
Or are they switch em on and walk a way for a few years?

George

Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Hard to beat orthogon!

And for a link that short I'd look REALLY hard at fso gear.

http://www.plaintree.com/

Plaintree has some cool infrared systems.  They handle dust and such 
better than lasers.


If you want laser systems, EC has some that are pretty cool too.  Not 
too expensive either.

marlon

- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing



Non set budget.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

what's the budget?

- Original Message - From: George Rogato 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing


I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at 
most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs 
duplex would be good


Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice?
Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig.
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RE: [WISPA] PtP pricing

2007-03-16 Thread Stephen Patrick
Dear all,

We're an FSO vendor - as well as our other radio and micrwoave products.
Actually I feel we should pitch in on the LEDs vs lasers - a topic we know
very well:
- LEDs are limited in power and bandwidth (more than 50Mbps at reasonable
power is a real problem for the raw LED devices)
- LEDs fade with lifetime, and there is no closed-loop control to compensate
this
- LEDs don't collimate into very nice beams
- LEDs generally are at 975nm which is the same as some laser products (such
as our 980nm Access series)
980nm transmits better at long distances than shorter wavelengths, but at
short distances there is no disadvantage with short wavelengths
- LEDs are cheaper devices than laser, which is actually the only reason
they are used.
There is no advantage of LEDs with dust, except in the case of a few vendors
that have narrow-aperture laser systems (avoid those: known to cause
problems).
We have LED technology and only use it for very short (a few feet)
customised and indoor links.  For outdoor links, use laser, it's far better.

Using Laser we have achieved better than 5 nines for some operators even
in foggy areas like London, on sub-kilometer links.
For one network operator (broadband ISP) they have under 15 seconds downtime
over 7 years - 155Mbps sub-kilometer links - which rather proves the point.
Though we have long distance laser installations at 4km+, those require
relatively clear conditions, or RF resilient path.
Generally, below 1km (say, 3/4 a mile) laser is absolutely a great solution.
In the USA, our lasers are deployed with cell carriers like Nextel, for
example, for backhaul from base stations on similar short hops.
Elsewhere in the world we have several hundred lasers for individual cell
carriers where microwave was considered too expensive.

Equipment reliability, vendors differ enormously - caveat emptor.  We have
installations back to 1997 still in service, so we're good on that score.
Some features like peltier cooling (solid state TEC) radically improves
lifetime, as laser lifetime drops off with temperature.
Automatic Transmit Power Control (ATPC) increases TX power in fade
conditions, and reduces in clear weather, improving availability and
lifetime.
Power supplies generally mounted indoors and DC run to the laser units;
though it is possible to put PSUs in roof/tower locations.
Generally, our customers fit and forget and just as you say, walk away and
leave them running.  Software NMS tells you the links are solid and working.

Laser certainly has it's place: you get no inteference and high 100Mbps and
true Gigabit Ethernet throughput.
For short links, laser is currently cheaper than E-band MMW and (assuming a
good product) no less reliable.
For the longer links, OFDM radios and licensed microwave (we make/sell them
too) are the best options.

/sales pitch  
Anyone who wants information or some real-world case studies, please don't
hesitate to ask - we have many, including WISPs.
Questions/comments welcome -

Best regards

Stephen Patrick
CableFree Solutions
www.cablefreesolutions.com
[mail sent in text format: advance apologies if it arrives in HTML, our
ISP/mail server is the culprit when this happens]

-Original Message-
From: George Rogato [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 16 March 2007 08:06
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing

Whats the reliability factor?

I've been thinking of adding fso for a couple links now for a couple years.

Now I could put 100megs duplex to use rather than waste the spectrum.
But how well does this stuff stand up?
Haven't heard much about anyones experiences good or bad.

is it 6 9's?
does the power supplies burn out or the units need to be repaired often?
Or are they switch em on and walk a way for a few years?

George

Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 Hard to beat orthogon!
 
 And for a link that short I'd look REALLY hard at fso gear.
 
 http://www.plaintree.com/
 
 Plaintree has some cool infrared systems.  They handle dust and such 
 better than lasers.
 
 If you want laser systems, EC has some that are pretty cool too.  Not 
 too expensive either.
 marlon
 
 - Original Message - From: George Rogato 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:13 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing
 
 
 Non set budget.


 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 what's the budget?

 - Original Message - From: George Rogato 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing


 I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at 
 most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs 
 duplex would be good

 Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice?
 Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig.
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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Matt Liotta

It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:
Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract for 
bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the local 
provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district and fire 
CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from the school 
district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing this again?. 
If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has an IP address, 
Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough smarts to do this?. 
Even a little guy like me knows how to block an offending IP address, 
and I am stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:

http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/




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Re: [WISPA] New WISPA Principal Member - Webjogger Internet Services

2007-03-16 Thread Mario Pommier

sometimes good things take a while to happen, but they do.
it's a solacing idea.
it's good to be here, Marlon.

Mario

Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Finally!  grin

Good to have you on the team Mario
marlon

- Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:18 AM
Subject: [WISPA] New WISPA Principal Member - Webjogger Internet Services


Many thanks to Mario Pommier of Webjogger Internet Services for 
making the step up to membership in WISPA. We appreciate you and all 
others like you who have recognized that through your dues and your 
time that you can help be an active part in building a better future 
for our industry. Thank you Mario. Here is a little bit of 
information about Mario and Webjogger:


Founded in 1997, Webjogger has been providing Internet service to 
customers in the Hudson Valley for 10 years. Webjogger services range 
from traditional Internet services (dialup and webhosting) to robust 
broadband connectivity solutions (highspeed wireless Internet and 
fully secure VPN connectivity using wireless point-to-point and 
point-to-multipoint technologies); from datacenter services (managed 
server colocation and online offsite backups) to advanced network 
consulting (routing and switching design and implementation).


Webjogger is owned and operated by experienced, knowledgeable, 
customer-focused individuals who know that researching and developing 
new technologies and deploying well-engineered solutions goes hand in 
hand with listening to our customers in order to fulfill their real 
needs.


Thanks.

Mario

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RE: [WISPA] Friday Humor - A little early :)

2007-03-16 Thread Mac Dearman

Harnish, I can honestly say that I have never bought a single tube of any
brand of bu++ paste. 

CAN YOU? :-)  

 I do own a big yellow tube of unopened Boudreaux's that I see every day in
one of my drawers in my bathroom.  Every time I see it - - I think of you
and it has formed a correlation to the stench in there too as now whenever I
smell something really stinky - - I find my self wondering how you are
doing. big smile


Mac 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Harnish
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:49 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Friday Humor - A little early :)

HeHe,

Yeah, but it was 300 years ago that Old Man Boudreaux invented his infamous
Bu++ Paste that Mac loves so much.

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482
Founding Member of WISPA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cliff Leboeuf
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Friday Humor - A little early :)

TELEPHONE HISTORY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After having dug to a depth of 10 meters last year, Scottish scientists
found traces of copper wire dating back 100 years and came to the
conclusion that their ancestors already had a telephone network more
than 100 years ago.

 

Not to be outdone by the Scots, in the weeks that followed, British
scientists dug to a depth of 20 meters, and shortly after headlines  in
the UK newspapers read:  British archaeologists have found traces of
200 year old copper wire and have concluded that their ancestors
already had an advanced high-tech communications network a hundred
years earlier than the Scots.

 

One week later, The Advertiser, a Lafayette , Louisiana newspaper,
reported the following:  After digging as deep as 30 meters in cane
fields near New Iberia , Gaston Boudreaux, a self taught archaeologist,
reported that he found absolutely nothing.  Gaston has, therefore,
concluded that 300 years ago Cajuns were already using wireless
technology.






 

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RE: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread n7mfy
SAID is an arabic surname, we probably have another dimention to this that has 
not been explored yet.  Could it be discrimination?  or DHS?

 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:39:26 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 
 wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?  Thank The good 
 Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract for  bandwidth last 
 year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the local  provider was doing 
 wrong, but to turn off a school district and fire CO  on that system, COME 
 ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from the school  district alone will make 
 Level 3 think twice about doing this again?.  If you have an offending 
 server, the stupid thing has an IP address,  Block it!. I would hope that 
 Level 3 has enough smarts to do this?. Even  a little guy like me knows how 
 to block an offending IP address, and I  am stupid, LOL!   Matt Liotta 
 wrote:  http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/ 
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RE: [WISPA] New WISPA Members

2007-03-16 Thread Mac Dearman



 I just wanted to say WELCOME ABOARD to all of the new principle WISPA
members. It is good to see all of you here as we can all benefit from one
another and the industry as a whole can be advanced due to all us being a
member here. I already see things that have happened for our betterment due
to WISPA and to think that we actually have a good rapport with the FCC and
have dealings with the FCC on a regular basis is something that would not be
possible - short of WISPA, hard work, dedication and committed persons in
WISPA like Marlon! You do a great job Marlon - THANKS

 I see WISPA growing faster today than since its inception a few years ago.
I know that down the road a short time from now we will be a well known
force to be reckoned with thanks to all the members and our leadership.

  We have a great crew at the helm and they all have my utmost respect for
the time and compassion they spend on this organization that benefits us
all. I also look forward to the day that I can slow down a little and give
back to WISPA something other than my subscription/membership dues!



Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
Rayville, La.
www.inetsouth.com
www.radioresponse.org (Katrina relief)
www.mac-tel.us (VoIP sales)
318.728.8600
318.728.9600
318.303.4182 



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[WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread John Scrivner
I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been 
installing outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would 
like to see fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems 
with the occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water into 
it. We use the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. The guys 
do not like having to climb and they work hard to try to make sure we do 
not get these problems and yet they come back. I would like to hear what 
you veterans out there are doing to make sure the water stays out.

Thanks,
Scriv

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RE: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Rick Smith

Scotch Super 33 tape over the connectors, right close as you can get to the
antenna, all the way down the lmr past where the rubber joint is - then
mastic over that - then 33 again over the mastic.

This is called a courtesy wrap, cause if you ever have to open it back up,
you slice down to the tape inside, and it peels right off quickly without
fighting the mastic.

Since I started doin this, I've NEVER had a moisture problem.

Also, wrap it when it's dry outside so you don't lock humidity into it...
temperature changes will then just wreak havoc on you.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:29 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been installing
outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would like to see
fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems with the
occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water into it. We use
the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. The guys do not like
having to climb and they work hard to try to make sure we do not get these
problems and yet they come back. I would like to hear what you veterans out
there are doing to make sure the water stays out.
Thanks,
Scriv

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Re: [WISPA] clock

2007-03-16 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Mine has been right all along.  Never changed a thing either.

I'm guessing there's an update that you guys don't have?

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] clock



Thats funny, didn't notice my clock off till just now.
Is there something wrong with xp's clock?


Tom DeReggi wrote:
Yeah its really wierd, I changed my clock 4 times today to reflect the 
right time, and it keeps jumping back to the old time.
I just unchecked the adjust for daylight savings button, to see if it 
helps.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:05 PM
Subject: [WISPA] clock



Tom,

I think your PC or laptop clock is off.
Did you ever reset or patch for Daylight Savings time this past Sunday 
AM?


BTW, did anyone notice that recurring outlook appointments were messed 
up with the new DST?


- Peter
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RE: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Mac Dearman
Scriv,

  We always do the same thing and we have never had water issues. It is a
simple way that a local HAM guy taught me.

1. Hand tighten the coax to the antenna

2. Wrap with 3M electric tape from bottom of fitting/heat shrink up to the
base of the antenna (in that direction as it acts like shingles on a house)
This wrap not only helps insulate against water, but enables you to get the
mastic off easily if you ever need to un-do the fitting!

3. Wrap with a good gummy mastic tape making sure to push the mastic in the
voids above the coax where it meets the antenna. We use this;
http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=53051eventPage=2

4. Then completely cover the mastic a couple times with the 3M electric tape
again - starting at the bottom working toward the top. This wrap keeps the
mastic from melting and dripping off during hot weather.

Do not use the cheap vinyl electric tape as it will not endure the weather.

GL,
Mac 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:29 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been 
installing outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would 
like to see fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems 
with the occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water into 
it. We use the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. The guys 
do not like having to climb and they work hard to try to make sure we do 
not get these problems and yet they come back. I would like to hear what 
you veterans out there are doing to make sure the water stays out.
Thanks,
Scriv

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Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing

2007-03-16 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

As far as I know, both are very good units.

I know that some of the older plaintree gear had flaky tx/rx units that 
weren't aligned right at the factory.  But I've sold a little bit of their 
stuff over the years and I don't remember any complaints.  Other than the 
sheer size of the units, fso is usually bigger than we're used to dealing 
with.  In the case of plaintree, that size is also part of what keeps the 
units from needing such exact aiming.


I've cc'd a couple of the plaintree folks here.  That'll help you contact 
them.


The EC number is 800-525-0173

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing



Whats the reliability factor?

I've been thinking of adding fso for a couple links now for a couple 
years.


Now I could put 100megs duplex to use rather than waste the spectrum.
But how well does this stuff stand up?
Haven't heard much about anyones experiences good or bad.

is it 6 9's?
does the power supplies burn out or the units need to be repaired often?
Or are they switch em on and walk a way for a few years?

George

Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Hard to beat orthogon!

And for a link that short I'd look REALLY hard at fso gear.

http://www.plaintree.com/

Plaintree has some cool infrared systems.  They handle dust and such 
better than lasers.


If you want laser systems, EC has some that are pretty cool too.  Not too 
expensive either.

marlon

- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing



Non set budget.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

what's the budget?

- Original Message - From: George Rogato 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing


I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at most 
for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs duplex 
would be good


Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice?
Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig.
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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
The fact that there are now NOW isp's in that area means that this wasn't an 
option.


We're on some l3 systems too.  I've been told that they have a habit of just 
dropping locations.


They are the ONLY facility in that area now that I shut down my lines and 
moved to them.  I'm debating a move back to phone lines but I don't know if 
I want to spend the extra money.


laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?



It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:
Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract for 
bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the local 
provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district and fire CO 
on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from the school 
district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing this again?. If 
you have an offending server, the stupid thing has an IP address, Block 
it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough smarts to do this?. Even a 
little guy like me knows how to block an offending IP address, and I am 
stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:

http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/




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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

I'd not think so.  L3 is doing this in other places as well.

Sometimes we're too fast to look for ways to be offended :-).

Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 7:07 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] anyone see this?


SAID is an arabic surname, we probably have another dimention to this that 
has not been explored yet.  Could it be discrimination?  or DHS?


Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:39:26 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 
wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?  Thank The 
good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract for  bandwidth 
last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the local  provider was 
doing wrong, but to turn off a school district and fire CO  on that 
system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from the school  district 
alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing this again?.  If you have 
an offending server, the stupid thing has an IP address,  Block it!. I 
would hope that Level 3 has enough smarts to do this?. Even  a little guy 
like me knows how to block an offending IP address, and I  am stupid, 
LOL!   Matt Liotta wrote:  
http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/  --  
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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Ross Cornett
We are just reverse taping on the connectors, then mastic just past the 
connector and its rubber seal, then taping it up on the outside tighter on 
the N connector end to make sure it squeezes the mastic to the radio no 
problems yet...



- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:29 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress


I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been installing 
outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would like to see 
fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems with the 
occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water into it. We use 
the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. The guys do not like 
having to climb and they work hard to try to make sure we do not get these 
problems and yet they come back. I would like to hear what you veterans out 
there are doing to make sure the water stays out.

Thanks,
Scriv

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Re: [WISPA] clock

2007-03-16 Thread David Peterson
As most of you know, Congress in a misguided effort to save us energy money,
moved daylight savings time back 3 weeks from its original date.
Unfortunately for windoze, an update needs to be downloaded.  You can get it
at http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com.  The reason some people have the
download and some don't is that you have to turn on manually automatic
updates.  If you don't have that turned on, any updates, including security
ones, need to be manually downloaded from the windows update site.

David Peterson
Nexus Wireless USA

On 3/16/07 11:07 AM, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Mine has been right all along.  Never changed a thing either.
 
 I'm guessing there's an update that you guys don't have?
 
 Marlon
 (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
 www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
 
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] clock
 
 
 Thats funny, didn't notice my clock off till just now.
 Is there something wrong with xp's clock?
 
 
 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Yeah its really wierd, I changed my clock 4 times today to reflect the
 right time, and it keeps jumping back to the old time.
 I just unchecked the adjust for daylight savings button, to see if it
 helps.
 
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
 - Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:05 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] clock
 
 
 Tom,
 
 I think your PC or laptop clock is off.
 Did you ever reset or patch for Daylight Savings time this past Sunday
 AM?
 
 BTW, did anyone notice that recurring outlook appointments were messed
 up with the new DST?
 
 - Peter
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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread John Scrivner
Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market is 
not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to swing 
redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the nearest 
telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will probably do 
that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make that place a new 
business opportunity in itself.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:

Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district and 
fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from the 
school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing this 
again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has an IP 
address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough smarts to do 
this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to block an offending IP 
address, and I am stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:


http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/






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Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing

2007-03-16 Thread Tom DeReggi

Stephen,

Excellent post.

I agree that every product has it's place.
The industry is lucky to have so many options to choose from.  The negative 
side is the options are often still expensive (perception of expense is 
relative :-)
The reasons, is vendors put a value on their product based on the worst case 
special unique need a customer might have for the product, instead of 
looking at how the product can compete with other technologies in the space, 
and price it to work for every case.  Meaning going for Profit margin, not 
volume. I think its because leading edge vendors are underfinanced as well. 
MMW is still averaging  11-35K for short links, and Long range License 
around 20K, which puts them outside of the budget for the majority of the 
potential applications, although the price can easilly be justified for 10% 
of the potential applications. I can give an example, of I just recently 
finished some engineering for about a half mil worth of MMW links, and my 
conclusion was I could buy Fiber for an over all lower cost than the MMW 
gear, so why go wireless? What I found surprizing is that when push came to 
shove, when I put the money on the table, Lendors and Vendors weren't yet 
willing to drop the price to compete with Fiber Deployment /Dark Fiber 
costs.  (Based on planned deployment which was not time sensitive).  Take 
away the now benefit of Time to Market that wireless offered, and it 
wasn;t a winner, yet.  But still MMW works for many that don't have the 
fiber available to their locations.


I think the race this next year is going to be about how low they 
(non-fiber) vendors can go.  In 2006, Proxim set the bar (Like Trango did 
for Unlicenced 6 years ago), by putting Short range GB wireless ( 1/2mile) 
on the table for $10K a link, about what Free-Space Optics was until then. 
(Some argue its Bridgewave that set that price, by releasing a far superior 
product to generate competitive preasure). This year we are going to see who 
is going to be the first to be the Cogent of Wireless gear 
manufacturering.  Short Range GB, needs to come down, Lease payments closer 
to Local Loop Costs ($80 /month), and Longer range shots need to come down 
below Dark Fiber Costs (sub $500 /mon.).


I have to say currently there is little demand to lower the short range 
cost, because their isnl;t a lower cost long range solution yet. But when 
the lower cost Long range product comes, the demand for lower cost short 
range will skyrocket.  The BEST thing a MMW product vendor could do 
strategically, is LOWER the price on LONG RANGE links, to enable carriers to 
have fast Backhauls, so that they can support buying a HUGE number of Fast 
Short Range Local Loop MMW products.


Most argue that MMW is superior to Laser, if obtained at the same cost. 
(although I'm sure their are arguements that may differ that opinion, in 
more controlled climates). It will be interesting to see what Happens in 
laser technology If they are the first to bring GB to the masses 
(cheaper), sub $5000 range, or if the product just loses significant market 
share as MMW drops in price, and it will.  I'd argue that Laser technology 
most likely is more cost effective to make nowadays, with years of the RD 
behind it already.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Stephen Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 7:46 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] PtP pricing



Dear all,

We're an FSO vendor - as well as our other radio and micrwoave products.
Actually I feel we should pitch in on the LEDs vs lasers - a topic we know
very well:
- LEDs are limited in power and bandwidth (more than 50Mbps at reasonable
power is a real problem for the raw LED devices)
- LEDs fade with lifetime, and there is no closed-loop control to 
compensate

this
- LEDs don't collimate into very nice beams
- LEDs generally are at 975nm which is the same as some laser products 
(such

as our 980nm Access series)
980nm transmits better at long distances than shorter wavelengths, but at
short distances there is no disadvantage with short wavelengths
- LEDs are cheaper devices than laser, which is actually the only reason
they are used.
There is no advantage of LEDs with dust, except in the case of a few 
vendors

that have narrow-aperture laser systems (avoid those: known to cause
problems).
We have LED technology and only use it for very short (a few feet)
customised and indoor links.  For outdoor links, use laser, it's far 
better.


Using Laser we have achieved better than 5 nines for some operators even
in foggy areas like London, on sub-kilometer links.
For one network operator (broadband ISP) they have under 15 seconds 
downtime
over 7 years - 155Mbps sub-kilometer links - which rather proves the 
point.

Though we have long distance laser installations at 4km+, those require
relatively clear conditions, or RF resilient path.

Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread John Scrivner
Thanks Rick. I will pass this along to our techs so they can start 
implementing this. I know they seal the heck out of things and it is 
really bizarre to me how any water is getting in there but it is. If 
they have questions about your process they may be  contacting you directly.

Many thanks,
Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:


Scotch Super 33 tape over the connectors, right close as you can get to the
antenna, all the way down the lmr past where the rubber joint is - then
mastic over that - then 33 again over the mastic.

This is called a courtesy wrap, cause if you ever have to open it back up,
you slice down to the tape inside, and it peels right off quickly without
fighting the mastic.

Since I started doin this, I've NEVER had a moisture problem.

Also, wrap it when it's dry outside so you don't lock humidity into it...
temperature changes will then just wreak havoc on you.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:29 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been installing
outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would like to see
fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems with the
occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water into it. We use
the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. The guys do not like
having to climb and they work hard to try to make sure we do not get these
problems and yet they come back. I would like to hear what you veterans out
there are doing to make sure the water stays out.
Thanks,
Scriv

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RE: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Chadd Thompson
Scriv,

I use the tape-tape-tape method. First I wrap the connection very
tight with a high quality electrical tape like 3M super88, then I wrap a
layer of self sealing rubber tape 3M brand also, then a final layer of 3M
super88. You need to make sure your wraps are tight. Also make sure that
adhesive lined heat shrink is being used on your cables.

You also need to make sure you are wrapping your tape correctly so
that the overlap on the tape is correct. For example if you have a
connector/cable that runs up and down you want to wrap your tape from bottom
to top, not top to bottom this lets the water shed over your wrap similar to
shingles on a house rather then running into the wrap.

This is what I do and knock on wood I have not had water get into a cable in
the 4 years I have been doing this.

Chadd

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of John Scrivner
 Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:29 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress
 
 I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been
 installing outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would
 like to see fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems
 with the occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water into
 it. We use the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. The guys
 do not like having to climb and they work hard to try to make sure we do
 not get these problems and yet they come back. I would like to hear what
 you veterans out there are doing to make sure the water stays out.
 Thanks,
 Scriv
 
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RE: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread JohnnyO
I taught Rick this after he learned the hard way ! ;)

CampWTF for life ! 

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:43 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

Thanks Rick. I will pass this along to our techs so they can start 
implementing this. I know they seal the heck out of things and it is 
really bizarre to me how any water is getting in there but it is. If 
they have questions about your process they may be  contacting you
directly.
Many thanks,
Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:

Scotch Super 33 tape over the connectors, right close as you can get to
the
antenna, all the way down the lmr past where the rubber joint is -
then
mastic over that - then 33 again over the mastic.

This is called a courtesy wrap, cause if you ever have to open it back
up,
you slice down to the tape inside, and it peels right off quickly
without
fighting the mastic.

Since I started doin this, I've NEVER had a moisture problem.

Also, wrap it when it's dry outside so you don't lock humidity into
it...
temperature changes will then just wreak havoc on you.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:29 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been
installing
outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would like to see
fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems with the
occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water into it. We
use
the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. The guys do not
like
having to climb and they work hard to try to make sure we do not get
these
problems and yet they come back. I would like to hear what you veterans
out
there are doing to make sure the water stays out.
Thanks,
Scriv

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-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.12/724 - Release Date:
3/16/2007 12:12 PM


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RE: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Rick Smith
nod, WTF! :) 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of JohnnyO
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

I taught Rick this after he learned the hard way ! ;)

CampWTF for life ! 

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:43 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

Thanks Rick. I will pass this along to our techs so they can start
implementing this. I know they seal the heck out of things and it is really
bizarre to me how any water is getting in there but it is. If they have
questions about your process they may be  contacting you directly.
Many thanks,
Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:

Scotch Super 33 tape over the connectors, right close as you can get to
the
antenna, all the way down the lmr past where the rubber joint is -
then
mastic over that - then 33 again over the mastic.

This is called a courtesy wrap, cause if you ever have to open it back
up,
you slice down to the tape inside, and it peels right off quickly
without
fighting the mastic.

Since I started doin this, I've NEVER had a moisture problem.

Also, wrap it when it's dry outside so you don't lock humidity into
it...
temperature changes will then just wreak havoc on you.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:29 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been
installing
outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would like to see 
fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems with the 
occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water into it. We
use
the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. The guys do not
like
having to climb and they work hard to try to make sure we do not get
these
problems and yet they come back. I would like to hear what you veterans
out
there are doing to make sure the water stays out.
Thanks,
Scriv

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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.12/724 - Release Date:
3/16/2007 12:12 PM


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RE: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Chadd Thompson
Forgot to mention a side benefit do doing it this way is that I don't have
to deal with mastic if I need to swap something out in the future. Usually I
can unwrap the connection with little trouble, otherwise I slit it with a
razor knife then peal it of nice and clean.

Chadd

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Chadd Thompson
 Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:45 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress
 
 Scriv,
 
   I use the tape-tape-tape method. First I wrap the connection very
 tight with a high quality electrical tape like 3M super88, then I wrap a
 layer of self sealing rubber tape 3M brand also, then a final layer of
 3M
 super88. You need to make sure your wraps are tight. Also make sure that
 adhesive lined heat shrink is being used on your cables.
 
   You also need to make sure you are wrapping your tape correctly so
 that the overlap on the tape is correct. For example if you have a
 connector/cable that runs up and down you want to wrap your tape from
 bottom
 to top, not top to bottom this lets the water shed over your wrap similar
 to
 shingles on a house rather then running into the wrap.
 
 This is what I do and knock on wood I have not had water get into a cable
 in
 the 4 years I have been doing this.
 
 Chadd
 

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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread George Rogato

Any particular type of antenna this is happening to?


John Scrivner wrote:
Thanks Rick. I will pass this along to our techs so they can start 
implementing this. I know they seal the heck out of things and it is 
really bizarre to me how any water is getting in there but it is. If 
they have questions about your process they may be  contacting you 
directly.

Many thanks,
Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:

Scotch Super 33 tape over the connectors, right close as you can get 
to the

antenna, all the way down the lmr past where the rubber joint is - then
mastic over that - then 33 again over the mastic.

This is called a courtesy wrap, cause if you ever have to open it back 
up,

you slice down to the tape inside, and it peels right off quickly without
fighting the mastic.

Since I started doin this, I've NEVER had a moisture problem.

Also, wrap it when it's dry outside so you don't lock humidity into it...
temperature changes will then just wreak havoc on you.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:29 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been installing
outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would like to see
fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems with the
occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water into it. We 
use

the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. The guys do not like
having to climb and they work hard to try to make sure we do not get 
these
problems and yet they come back. I would like to hear what you 
veterans out

there are doing to make sure the water stays out.
Thanks,
Scriv

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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Matt Liotta
Sure it is more costly than being single-homed, but being multi-homed is 
pretty important. If your single provider goes down what do you tell 
your customers?


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:
Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market 
is not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to 
swing redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the nearest 
telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will probably 
do that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make that place a 
new business opportunity in itself.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:

Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district 
and fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from 
the school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing 
this again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has 
an IP address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough 
smarts to do this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to block an 
offending IP address, and I am stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:


http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/







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Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing

2007-03-16 Thread George Rogato

I wonder how much a set of Plaintree WBLS100 are?

100megs full duplex would do the trick for me. I'm only going across the 
street 100 yards or so. Twice. I need two sets of PtP links.


George

Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

As far as I know, both are very good units.

I know that some of the older plaintree gear had flaky tx/rx units that 
weren't aligned right at the factory.  But I've sold a little bit of 
their stuff over the years and I don't remember any complaints.  Other 
than the sheer size of the units, fso is usually bigger than we're used 
to dealing with.  In the case of plaintree, that size is also part of 
what keeps the units from needing such exact aiming.


I've cc'd a couple of the plaintree folks here.  That'll help you 
contact them.


The EC number is 800-525-0173

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing



Whats the reliability factor?

I've been thinking of adding fso for a couple links now for a couple 
years.


Now I could put 100megs duplex to use rather than waste the spectrum.
But how well does this stuff stand up?
Haven't heard much about anyones experiences good or bad.

is it 6 9's?
does the power supplies burn out or the units need to be repaired often?
Or are they switch em on and walk a way for a few years?

George

Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Hard to beat orthogon!

And for a link that short I'd look REALLY hard at fso gear.

http://www.plaintree.com/

Plaintree has some cool infrared systems.  They handle dust and such 
better than lasers.


If you want laser systems, EC has some that are pretty cool too.  Not 
too expensive either.

marlon

- Original Message - From: George Rogato 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing



Non set budget.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

what's the budget?

- Original Message - From: George Rogato 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing


I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at 
most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs 
duplex would be good


Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice?
Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig.
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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread George Rogato

See now that is the issue around here.

If we want true redundancy we need to ride two different fibers out of 
town. One is the fiber we are already on, and the other is the expensive 
guys Qwest.


We hate to give Qwest a dime.


Matt Liotta wrote:
Sure it is more costly than being single-homed, but being multi-homed is 
pretty important. If your single provider goes down what do you tell 
your customers?


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:
Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market 
is not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to 
swing redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the nearest 
telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will probably 
do that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make that place a 
new business opportunity in itself.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:

Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district 
and fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from 
the school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing 
this again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has 
an IP address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough 
smarts to do this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to block an 
offending IP address, and I am stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:


http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/









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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Tom DeReggi

It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.


Although, I recognize being multi-homed would have protected the WISP in 
this situation... That is not really the issue.


The issue is that Businesses often build strategic partnerships, and 
togeather they grow.  There is often a need to extend trust to partners, and 
expect that trust to be honored.  There are to many Suppliers out there that 
are just Vendors and can't see past end of their nose, and in my mind very 
poor business men.  What this event shows is that Level3 is not a worthy 
Partner.  They are someone that reads the text of their contract with a 
higher weight than common business sense that will profit them.  Its 
insaine, that a Goliath like Level3 would inject the MASSIVE harm to the 
samll WISP over such a small infringement which would cause next to know 
harm to the Goliath Level3, if it was not seized.  This is the problem with 
the Egotistical mammonth provider.  They forget about the core fundamentals 
of business, stengthening partnerships, and fostering their partner's growth 
for mutual benefit.  They have the, I'm to bug to worry about the small fish 
syndrom.


Lets position it another way... Many small WISPs outsource their backbone to 
someone that does it better. They take a partner that is multi-homed. They 
pay an inflated price per MB, to compensate the partner for providing a 
service behind multiple backbones. Aren;t you in that Business, Matt? If you 
were to turn off your client, would you use the same arguement that your 
client should have been multi-homed, and not relied on just you?


We are in a day, where we shouldn't have to protect ourselves from our 
partners.  Our partners should be a component we can count on without doubt 
or sudden surprises.


I guess what it comes down to is, Who do You trust? Thats who one should 
do business with. Not the Big name. Not the Best Priced.  Not the Guy 
that is doing you the big favor to take your order.  NOt the guy that 
leverages every thing they can get out of you when you are in a weak spot. 
You need to pick partners (vendors) that also put skin in the game upfront, 
and demonstrated an unconditional history of honoring their word and acting 
in good faith, and offers good value before they are forced to.  In other 
words... Someone you can Count on.


Events like this one from Level3 are a discrace to the industry.  And let 
their true colors show.  If Level3 is smart, they'll do an about face on 
this one, make a public appologee, blame it on a mistake and 
misunderstanding that went under the radar of management initially, and help 
immediately fix the problem.  Any other action, would shed a very negative 
light.


The reason is that its not about the Provider, the WISP Client, or who is 
wrong or right. Its about the well being of the public.  And the Public is 
the biggest loser in this deal. And that doesn't go over very well in the 
Press or Public opinion.  And ISP Buyers clearly don;t want to advertize 
their afiliation with custoemrs that consumers hate, or have no remorse or 
caring for the public.


This is a clear case of why Network Neutrality is important.  People with 
Power think about how something effects themselves, and not how their 
actions may effect another.


Sorry about the preaching, but this type of thing just enrages me.  There 
should never be a situation where consumers get shut off without notice, 
period. I send the operators of Saidcom,Inc and the residents of PA my 
condolances.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?



It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:
Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract for 
bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the local 
provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district and fire CO 
on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from the school 
district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing this again?. If 
you have an offending server, the stupid thing has an IP address, Block 
it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough smarts to do this?. Even a 
little guy like me knows how to block an offending IP address, and I am 
stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:

http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/




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RE: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Can you do a microwave shot from another town/provider? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

See now that is the issue around here.

If we want true redundancy we need to ride two different fibers out of town.
One is the fiber we are already on, and the other is the expensive guys
Qwest.

We hate to give Qwest a dime.


Matt Liotta wrote:
 Sure it is more costly than being single-homed, but being multi-homed 
 is pretty important. If your single provider goes down what do you 
 tell your customers?
 
 -Matt
 
 John Scrivner wrote:
 Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market 
 is not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
 multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to 
 swing redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the 
 nearest telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will 
 probably do that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make 
 that place a new business opportunity in itself.
 Scriv


 Matt Liotta wrote:

 It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

 -Matt

 Tim Wolfe wrote:

 Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
 for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
 local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district 
 and fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from 
 the school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing 
 this again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has 
 an IP address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough 
 smarts to do this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to block an 
 offending IP address, and I am stupid, LOL!


 Matt Liotta wrote:

 http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/



 

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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Tom DeReggi

I'm going to have to argue with you guys

The purpose of the Mastic tape is that it creates a bond that fills the 
nooks and cranties of the item that you are waterproofing. So that if the 
Super88 leaks, it can't get to the connector.
The two biggest places water gets into the connection is the two ends where 
the taping ends, NOT just condensing through the material. If you use Super 
88 on the inside layer, you are creating a CONDUIT for moisture to pass 
through, IF water enters in through one of the two ends (far edges of 
taping). It is VERY difficult to get a complete seal where the tape toughes 
the Antenna and the end of the connector, reason being the antenna surface 
is perpendicular to the connector you are wrapping.  Doing it the way you 
are suggesting is definately easy to remove the tape, but it leaves the 
connector vulnerable to a poor seal at the edges, if that occurs.  I'd argue 
that doing it that way, is taking away the benefit of why you use Mastic 
tape in the first place. Super88 is meant primarilly just for UV resilient.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

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RE: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Rick Smith
not if you squeeze the mastic up over the nut close to the antenna N
connector, and over the ends of the tape near the heat wrap...then it's
sealing off the courtesy wrap inside... 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

I'm going to have to argue with you guys

The purpose of the Mastic tape is that it creates a bond that fills the
nooks and cranties of the item that you are waterproofing. So that if the
Super88 leaks, it can't get to the connector.
The two biggest places water gets into the connection is the two ends where
the taping ends, NOT just condensing through the material. If you use Super
88 on the inside layer, you are creating a CONDUIT for moisture to pass
through, IF water enters in through one of the two ends (far edges of
taping). It is VERY difficult to get a complete seal where the tape toughes
the Antenna and the end of the connector, reason being the antenna surface
is perpendicular to the connector you are wrapping.  Doing it the way you
are suggesting is definately easy to remove the tape, but it leaves the
connector vulnerable to a poor seal at the edges, if that occurs.  I'd argue
that doing it that way, is taking away the benefit of why you use Mastic
tape in the first place. Super88 is meant primarilly just for UV resilient.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

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RE: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread JohnnyO
Super33 or Super88 - Mastic - Super33 or Super88 

This is how it should be done - this is how carriers do it, this is how
old time ham operators do it Period ! 

Try to re-invent the wheel is asking for trouble 

Tape from the bottom to the top to form shingles

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 11:23 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

I'm going to have to argue with you guys

The purpose of the Mastic tape is that it creates a bond that fills the 
nooks and cranties of the item that you are waterproofing. So that if
the 
Super88 leaks, it can't get to the connector.
The two biggest places water gets into the connection is the two ends
where 
the taping ends, NOT just condensing through the material. If you use
Super 
88 on the inside layer, you are creating a CONDUIT for moisture to pass 
through, IF water enters in through one of the two ends (far edges of 
taping). It is VERY difficult to get a complete seal where the tape
toughes 
the Antenna and the end of the connector, reason being the antenna
surface 
is perpendicular to the connector you are wrapping.  Doing it the way
you 
are suggesting is definately easy to remove the tape, but it leaves the 
connector vulnerable to a poor seal at the edges, if that occurs.  I'd
argue 
that doing it that way, is taking away the benefit of why you use Mastic

tape in the first place. Super88 is meant primarilly just for UV
resilient.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

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[WISPA] Many thanks

2007-03-16 Thread John Scrivner
I appreciate all the feedback on the moisture from all of you. I was not 
sure the proper way as I always used a completely different method in my 
CATV days. Our hard line was sealed with an adhesive lined heat shrink 
tubing. I actually saw water get into those connections too though so I 
was curious what you guys used. I am seeing a pattern from those of you 
who answered which looks like the plan going forward. The 
tape-mastic-tape 3-way sealing plan is going to be what we do from now on.

Thanks guys,
Scriv
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Re: [WISPA] Many thanks

2007-03-16 Thread lakeland
John

Site pro 1 has really great pricing for weatherproofing kits 

www.sitepro1.com

Bob
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry  

-Original Message-
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:48:13 
To:wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Many thanks

I appreciate all the feedback on the moisture from all of you. I was not 
sure the proper way as I always used a completely different method in my 
CATV days. Our hard line was sealed with an adhesive lined heat shrink 
tubing. I actually saw water get into those connections too though so I 
was curious what you guys used. I am seeing a pattern from those of you 
who answered which looks like the plan going forward. The 
tape-mastic-tape 3-way sealing plan is going to be what we do from now on.
Thanks guys,
Scriv
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RE: [WISPA] PtP pricing

2007-03-16 Thread Stephen Patrick
Thanks very much Tom.

That is a very interesting subject indeed: 
I think you have a very good insight on the current broadband/gigabit
marketplace, a very well written piece.
MMW is currently high price - low volume and there are far fewer MMW
deployments than FSO in the world so far AFAIK.
Part of that is also regulatory, relatively few countries have followed the
FCC lead and deregulated E-band (70-80GHz).  UK just has done (three
cheers!)
Prices WILL come down on MMW as the volumes go up.  And products will become
more mature too.

BTW, we sell both MMW and FSO, we're not picking a fight between the two.
FSO fades in fog, MMW in rain.  Some of the choice therefore depends where
you live!  Tropics is probably not too good a place for MMW ... And there
are some places where FSO suffers too.
We have deployed Twinpath FSO+MMW for some mission-critical applications
where 100% uptime was required - i.e. no single point of failure.  Sounds a
strange thing to do, but the result is about the most resilient wireless
connection you can get.

Required price points - interesting.  Both MMW and FSO technology is
inherently more expensive than current OFDM gear.  (We make/sell that too).
And being limited in range, requiring LOS, there are fewer MMW or FSO
applications - an OFDM radio can go 20km, or a few km near-LOS.
Right now, there's a lot of buzz about MMW, which is like FSO was 7-8
years ago.  It will be interesting to see what happens as the MMW market
matures.

Look forward to hearing more on this debate -

Best regards

Stephen Patrick
CableFree Solutions

-Original Message-
From: Tom DeReggi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 16 March 2007 15:38
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing

Stephen,

Excellent post.

I agree that every product has it's place.
The industry is lucky to have so many options to choose from.  The negative
side is the options are often still expensive (perception of expense is
relative :-) The reasons, is vendors put a value on their product based on
the worst case special unique need a customer might have for the product,
instead of looking at how the product can compete with other technologies in
the space, and price it to work for every case.  Meaning going for Profit
margin, not volume. I think its because leading edge vendors are
underfinanced as well. 
MMW is still averaging  11-35K for short links, and Long range License
around 20K, which puts them outside of the budget for the majority of the
potential applications, although the price can easilly be justified for 10%
of the potential applications. I can give an example, of I just recently
finished some engineering for about a half mil worth of MMW links, and my
conclusion was I could buy Fiber for an over all lower cost than the MMW
gear, so why go wireless? What I found surprizing is that when push came to
shove, when I put the money on the table, Lendors and Vendors weren't yet
willing to drop the price to compete with Fiber Deployment /Dark Fiber
costs.  (Based on planned deployment which was not time sensitive).  Take
away the now benefit of Time to Market that wireless offered, and it
wasn;t a winner, yet.  But still MMW works for many that don't have the
fiber available to their locations.

I think the race this next year is going to be about how low they
(non-fiber) vendors can go.  In 2006, Proxim set the bar (Like Trango did
for Unlicenced 6 years ago), by putting Short range GB wireless ( 1/2mile)
on the table for $10K a link, about what Free-Space Optics was until then. 
(Some argue its Bridgewave that set that price, by releasing a far superior
product to generate competitive preasure). This year we are going to see who
is going to be the first to be the Cogent of Wireless gear
manufacturering.  Short Range GB, needs to come down, Lease payments closer
to Local Loop Costs ($80 /month), and Longer range shots need to come down
below Dark Fiber Costs (sub $500 /mon.).

I have to say currently there is little demand to lower the short range
cost, because their isnl;t a lower cost long range solution yet. But when
the lower cost Long range product comes, the demand for lower cost short
range will skyrocket.  The BEST thing a MMW product vendor could do
strategically, is LOWER the price on LONG RANGE links, to enable carriers to
have fast Backhauls, so that they can support buying a HUGE number of Fast
Short Range Local Loop MMW products.

Most argue that MMW is superior to Laser, if obtained at the same cost. 
(although I'm sure their are arguements that may differ that opinion, in
more controlled climates). It will be interesting to see what Happens in
laser technology If they are the first to bring GB to the masses
(cheaper), sub $5000 range, or if the product just loses significant market
share as MMW drops in price, and it will.  I'd argue that Laser technology
most likely is more cost effective to make nowadays, with years of the RD
behind it already.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, 

Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread John Scrivner
This is not something that is following a certain antenna type. It has 
more to do with the weather sealing technique than anything I think. I 
believe that the best practices for this are becoming clear from 
feedback we are seeing here and I sure appreciate everyone's feedback on 
this.


Maybe we should start a member's Wiki on WISP best practices. Then we 
can mold the best practices over time on the Wiki from what is posted 
there. This would certainly be a valuable member benefit.

Scriv


George Rogato wrote:


Any particular type of antenna this is happening to?


John Scrivner wrote:

Thanks Rick. I will pass this along to our techs so they can start 
implementing this. I know they seal the heck out of things and it is 
really bizarre to me how any water is getting in there but it is. If 
they have questions about your process they may be  contacting you 
directly.

Many thanks,
Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:

Scotch Super 33 tape over the connectors, right close as you can get 
to the
antenna, all the way down the lmr past where the rubber joint is - 
then

mastic over that - then 33 again over the mastic.

This is called a courtesy wrap, cause if you ever have to open it 
back up,
you slice down to the tape inside, and it peels right off quickly 
without

fighting the mastic.

Since I started doin this, I've NEVER had a moisture problem.

Also, wrap it when it's dry outside so you don't lock humidity into 
it...

temperature changes will then just wreak havoc on you.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:29 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been 
installing

outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would like to see
fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems with the
occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water into it. 
We use
the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. The guys do not 
like
having to climb and they work hard to try to make sure we do not get 
these
problems and yet they come back. I would like to hear what you 
veterans out

there are doing to make sure the water stays out.
Thanks,
Scriv

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[WISPA] Re: Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Justin S. Wilson
Tape, Mastic, Tape. Watch the way the cell guys do it. They don't get fancy.
Make sure your wraps are good. Electricians are actually taught how to wrap
tape properly. We have some mastic from the local HVAC guys. Real easy to
work with and it very pliable.

Make sure to push the mastic in to the little nooks and crannies. If it is
cold out invest in a little propane torch to heat things up and make them
bond.

Justin

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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

sigh

Larsen, when can you and I hook up and do a video of the RIGHT way to 
weather seal?  hehehehe


First, John, I'm gonna assume that your guys know nothing so please take no 
offence.


The FIRST and MOST important step in a good water seal is the antenna!  Jer 
would be quick to remind me of that painful lesson as it applies to the old 
Mobile Mark black 9dB omni antennas.  The antenna connector at the bottom 
was SCREWED into the mast below the weep hole.  Water would eventually wick 
down into the connection via the threads, no matter how good you were at 
weather sealing.  I LOVE those antennas, they work incredibly well, but they 
just don't last.


You have to watch for things like people using those danged bulkhead 
connectors with the flat sides on them.  Also watch for the nut on the 
outside of the connection.  If it's not also covered there's a spot for 
water to wick down into the connection.


When I run into those flat sided connectors I will stretch my mastic very 
thin to make sure that I get the goop down into the cut down area.  The down 
side to this is that the mastic will eventually ooze into the threads and 
make the connection REALLY hard to take apart.  I always figured that a 
connection that's easy to take apart will also be more likely to leak 
though.


I try to get antennas that have a longer connector on them when I can.  I 
also require that antennas I use have room for a whole roll of tape between 
the connectors and any other parts.  If I can't put the tape on correctly it 
will leak someday.


I tried using silicone on the connectors but that eventually shrinks and 
there's something in it that corrodes the connectors.  Bad idea.


I tried putting a layer of black tape on before I put on the mastic, then I 
decided that that was a silly idea because that inside layer is the water 
proofing and if it's easy to take off it's more likely to leak.


On the new Maxrad hpol adjustable beam sectors that I like so much I take 
them to a machine shop and cut off part of the braketry so that I can seal 
things up better.  I'm not afraid to modify the mounting systems on antennas 
if it'll let me do a better job of sealing them up.


I only use high end connectors.  Times Microwave all the way.

Here's how I seal a connector:
Use one wrap of scotch 2228 mastic.  Stretch it to half it's original width 
and overlap each layer by half.  This give you a two layer thick coating. 
Start at the bottom about a half inch PAST the heat shrink.  Heat shrink is 
NOT water tight.  It's a strain relief...  Up near the connector bulkhead 
end I will wrap the tape enough to make sure that there's a bit blob of it 
around anything that might allow water in, especially the bulkhead it's 
self.  Then wrap back down to the middle of the connector.


Next I use Scotch 33+ tape (none of the cheap crap gets used anywhere here). 
This gets two layers that are overlapped by half.  Start so that your LAST 
layer goes up.  It should leave a pattern kinda like siding.  You want the 
water to run off of the seams not follow down into them.  This needs to be 
wrapped so that it's smooth, no creases allowed.  A crease is an air gap, 
air = water.  Stretch the tape just enough to pull to all of the wrinkles, 
too tight and over time it'll actually slide off of the connector.  It may 
do this over time anyway but once it's squished the mastic into all of the 
nooks and crannies it doesn't seem to matter much.  Not making your tape too 
tight on the diameter transitions seems to help with the problem though.


I just don't have water problems anymore.

Things that I've seen/done that fail.  Almost always.

Heat shrink.  The glue hardens when temps drop and you loose the water tight 
seal.  Yes I know it works in water wells, but the temps there are steady.

Duct tape.  Degrades in sunlight and many glues are water soluble.
Black tape alone, see above.
Silicone, shrinks and corrodes connectors.
Nothing.  I know that there's a gasket in there, I know that the factory 
says you don't have to seal them.  They will leak.
Reusing antennas or connectors that got water in them.  If you look closely 
you'll see that the center pins have a discoloring.  That's corrosion and 
you'll never get a good connection out of them again.  In fact I usually 
chance the coax too.


Hope this helps!
marlon

Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 7:29 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress


I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been installing 
outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would like to see 
fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see 

Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread John Scrivner
I tell them the fiber is down. I guess I could go broke trying to be 
more fault tolerant. Please understand I appreciate your feedback but 
understand that my service area does not have a single fault tolerant 
broadband solution. If people want fault tolerance here then the option 
is to buy two broadband connections from two providers and have an 
auto-fail over router. I promote this to people who want fault tolerant 
connectivity. If/when we roll out our 12 county AWS based broadband / 
cell network we will be multi-homed. Until then the economics of this 
would make us broke. I am not exaggerating.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:

Sure it is more costly than being single-homed, but being multi-homed 
is pretty important. If your single provider goes down what do you 
tell your customers?


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market 
is not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to 
swing redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the 
nearest telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will 
probably do that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make 
that place a new business opportunity in itself.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:

Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district 
and fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from 
the school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing 
this again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has 
an IP address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough 
smarts to do this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to block an 
offending IP address, and I am stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:


http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/









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Re: [WISPA] Many thanks

2007-03-16 Thread Brian Rohrbacher

Check out this.

http://www.dslreports.com/speak/slideshow/14670691?c=914265ret=L2ZvcnVtL3JlbWFyaywxNDY1MTI2Mn5kYXlzPTk5OTl%2Bc3RhcnQ9MjA%3D

The product I prefer for the conformal sealing in the pic is...
http://www.sashcosealants.com/home_improvement/products/lexel.shtml
Read the specs on that stuff.  There isn't a job it can't do.

Tim Wolfe likes to use.(I used to use it on commercial gutter 
installs when I worked for a steel roofing company, it's nice)

http://www.geocelusa.com/php/oic/product.php?prdb_product_id=48


Both are great products.  Hope it helps.  Well, I didn't read your 
thread yet, but I will soon.  Either way.the way I go the route of 
scotch 33+ (sticky side out)  Scotch 2210 and finish it with scotch 33+ 
(at least 4 layers).


Brian




John Scrivner wrote:
I appreciate all the feedback on the moisture from all of you. I was 
not sure the proper way as I always used a completely different method 
in my CATV days. Our hard line was sealed with an adhesive lined heat 
shrink tubing. I actually saw water get into those connections too 
though so I was curious what you guys used. I am seeing a pattern from 
those of you who answered which looks like the plan going forward. The 
tape-mastic-tape 3-way sealing plan is going to be what we do from now 
on.

Thanks guys,
Scriv

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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Brian Rohrbacher



Tom DeReggi wrote:

I'm going to have to argue with you guys
That's easy.  
http://www.dslreports.com/speak/slideshow/14670691?c=914265ret=L2ZvcnVtL3JlbWFyaywxNDY1MTI2Mn5kYXlzPTk5OTl%2Bc3RhcnQ9MjA%3D


Se how each layer comes down a little bit further?  This method has 
worked great through Michigan weather.  The important part is the 
conformal sealing.  Silicone is junk for sure.  Use on of the products I 
posted in the many thanks thread.  Also, I use scotch 2210, not 130c 
for my mastic.


Brian


The purpose of the Mastic tape is that it creates a bond that fills 
the nooks and cranties of the item that you are waterproofing. So that 
if the Super88 leaks, it can't get to the connector.
The two biggest places water gets into the connection is the two ends 
where the taping ends, NOT just condensing through the material. If 
you use Super 88 on the inside layer, you are creating a CONDUIT for 
moisture to pass through, IF water enters in through one of the two 
ends (far edges of taping). It is VERY difficult to get a complete 
seal where the tape toughes the Antenna and the end of the connector, 
reason being the antenna surface is perpendicular to the connector you 
are wrapping.  Doing it the way you are suggesting is definately easy 
to remove the tape, but it leaves the connector vulnerable to a poor 
seal at the edges, if that occurs.  I'd argue that doing it that way, 
is taking away the benefit of why you use Mastic tape in the first 
place. Super88 is meant primarilly just for UV resilient.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Travis Johnson
We started using Coax-Seal about two years ago and have never had a 
problem since. It's moldable so you wrap the connector and then form it 
around the connections. Quick, easy and cheap. Even on mountaintops at 
9000ft elevation with 60mph winds and freezing rain/ice we have never 
had a problem.


Travis
Microserv

John Scrivner wrote:
I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been 
installing outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I would 
like to see fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see problems 
with the occasional connection outside at the antenna getting water 
into it. We use the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the connections. 
The guys do not like having to climb and they work hard to try to make 
sure we do not get these problems and yet they come back. I would like 
to hear what you veterans out there are doing to make sure the water 
stays out.

Thanks,
Scriv


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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Brian Rohrbacher



Brian Rohrbacher wrote:



Tom DeReggi wrote:

I'm going to have to argue with you guys
That's easy.  
http://www.dslreports.com/speak/slideshow/14670691?c=914265ret=L2ZvcnVtL3JlbWFyaywxNDY1MTI2Mn5kYXlzPTk5OTl%2Bc3RhcnQ9MjA%3D 

Oh, one more thing, I stop the reversed layer at the connector.  It does 
not go down onto the chassis connector when I do it.  Same on the other 
end, I don't take the first layer onto the feedline.  It's only purpose 
for me is to make removal a little better by keeping just the cable 
connector clean.  (refer to link for pic of cable)


Brian


Se how each layer comes down a little bit further?  This method has 
worked great through Michigan weather.  The important part is the 
conformal sealing.  Silicone is junk for sure.  Use on of the products 
I posted in the many thanks thread.  Also, I use scotch 2210, not 
130c for my mastic.


Brian


The purpose of the Mastic tape is that it creates a bond that fills 
the nooks and cranties of the item that you are waterproofing. So 
that if the Super88 leaks, it can't get to the connector.
The two biggest places water gets into the connection is the two ends 
where the taping ends, NOT just condensing through the material. If 
you use Super 88 on the inside layer, you are creating a CONDUIT for 
moisture to pass through, IF water enters in through one of the two 
ends (far edges of taping). It is VERY difficult to get a complete 
seal where the tape toughes the Antenna and the end of the connector, 
reason being the antenna surface is perpendicular to the connector 
you are wrapping.  Doing it the way you are suggesting is definately 
easy to remove the tape, but it leaves the connector vulnerable to a 
poor seal at the edges, if that occurs.  I'd argue that doing it that 
way, is taking away the benefit of why you use Mastic tape in the 
first place. Super88 is meant primarilly just for UV resilient.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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[WISPA] outside connection

2007-03-16 Thread Travis Johnson

Hi,

We sometimes have to move people's radios because of tree growth, 
changing towers, etc. The biggest pain is having to re-run the CAT5 
cable because it won't reach. Has anyone ever seen some type of outdoor 
coupler or even something you could put around a normal coupler and just 
extend the cable without re-running the whole thing?


Thanks,

Travis
Microserv
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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Brian Rohrbacher
I have never seen the stuff, but by looking it up, it looks like it is 
kind of like clay.  It that true?  Is it moldable like clay?


Brian

Travis Johnson wrote:
We started using Coax-Seal about two years ago and have never had a 
problem since. It's moldable so you wrap the connector and then form 
it around the connections. Quick, easy and cheap. Even on mountaintops 
at 9000ft elevation with 60mph winds and freezing rain/ice we have 
never had a problem.


Travis
Microserv

John Scrivner wrote:
I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been 
installing outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I 
would like to see fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see 
problems with the occasional connection outside at the antenna 
getting water into it. We use the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the 
connections. The guys do not like having to climb and they work hard 
to try to make sure we do not get these problems and yet they come 
back. I would like to hear what you veterans out there are doing to 
make sure the water stays out.

Thanks,
Scriv


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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Travis Johnson
Well, kind of... it's more like a soft rubbery compound. You can mold it 
into any shape and it's very easy to work with... the only problem is 
getting it back off when the temp is below zero... that takes a little 
work... ;)


Travis
Microserv

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
I have never seen the stuff, but by looking it up, it looks like it is 
kind of like clay.  It that true?  Is it moldable like clay?


Brian

Travis Johnson wrote:
We started using Coax-Seal about two years ago and have never had a 
problem since. It's moldable so you wrap the connector and then form 
it around the connections. Quick, easy and cheap. Even on 
mountaintops at 9000ft elevation with 60mph winds and freezing 
rain/ice we have never had a problem.


Travis
Microserv

John Scrivner wrote:
I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been 
installing outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I 
would like to see fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see 
problems with the occasional connection outside at the antenna 
getting water into it. We use the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal 
the connections. The guys do not like having to climb and they work 
hard to try to make sure we do not get these problems and yet they 
come back. I would like to hear what you veterans out there are 
doing to make sure the water stays out.

Thanks,
Scriv


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RE: [WISPA] outside connection

2007-03-16 Thread Brad Belton
In the event we need to extend a CAT5 cable we use the 3M UY connectors.
Keep the twist of each wire as close as possible and then tape, Coax-Seal
and more tape.  We've never had a problem with this method...knock on wood.

Best,


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:44 PM
To: isp-wireless@isp-wireless.com; WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] outside connection

Hi,

We sometimes have to move people's radios because of tree growth, 
changing towers, etc. The biggest pain is having to re-run the CAT5 
cable because it won't reach. Has anyone ever seen some type of outdoor 
coupler or even something you could put around a normal coupler and just 
extend the cable without re-running the whole thing?

Thanks,

Travis
Microserv
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Re: [WISPA] outside connection

2007-03-16 Thread J. Vogel
I have used these with some success.

http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=565-0107R=565%2D0107sid=45F9DE0075EFE17F

John

Travis Johnson wrote:

 Hi,

 We sometimes have to move people's radios because of tree growth,
 changing towers, etc. The biggest pain is having to re-run the CAT5
 cable because it won't reach. Has anyone ever seen some type of
 outdoor coupler or even something you could put around a normal
 coupler and just extend the cable without re-running the whole thing?

 Thanks,

 Travis
 Microserv
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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Matt Liotta

Tom DeReggi wrote:

It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.


Although, I recognize being multi-homed would have protected the WISP 
in this situation... That is not really the issue.


The issue is that Businesses often build strategic partnerships, and 
togeather they grow.  There is often a need to extend trust to 
partners, and expect that trust to be honored.  There are to many 
Suppliers out there that are just Vendors and can't see past end of 
their nose, and in my mind very poor business men.  What this event 
shows is that Level3 is not a worthy Partner.  They are someone that 
reads the text of their contract with a higher weight than common 
business sense that will profit them.  Its insaine, that a Goliath 
like Level3 would inject the MASSIVE harm to the samll WISP over such 
a small infringement which would cause next to know harm to the 
Goliath Level3, if it was not seized.  This is the problem with the 
Egotistical mammonth provider.  They forget about the core 
fundamentals of business, stengthening partnerships, and fostering 
their partner's growth for mutual benefit.  They have the, I'm to bug 
to worry about the small fish syndrom.
Regardless of whether Level3 was in the wrong it doesn't alleviate some 
responsibility from the ISP in question. For example, I carry uninsured 
motorist insurance, which protects me should my car be in an accident 
with someone without insurance. Am I required to have this insurance? 
No. Do I consider it a small price to pay to protect myself? Yes.


Now I understand that my analogy is not the best, but I can't imagine 
having my company in the position that a single 3rd party could put me 
out of business. I feel like it is my responsibility to protect from 
company from such an event and recognize that it is a cost of doing 
business.


Lets position it another way... Many small WISPs outsource their 
backbone to someone that does it better. They take a partner that is 
multi-homed. They pay an inflated price per MB, to compensate the 
partner for providing a service behind multiple backbones. Aren;t you 
in that Business, Matt? If you were to turn off your client, would you 
use the same arguement that your client should have been multi-homed, 
and not relied on just you?


We have turned off customers that defaulted on their contract with us. 
If those customers had been multi-homed the effect on their business 
would have been significantly less. Then again, had they not defaulted 
on their contract it wouldn't have been an issue. Regardless, most 
operators don't become multi-homed to avoid contract disputes; they do 
it to protect their business in case of unexpected outages that can and 
will happen from time to time.


-Matt

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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Matt Liotta
I can't imagine you would go broke. I seem to recall that you aren't but 
a couple of radio shots away from cheap bandwidth in St. Louis. 
Certainly, a couple of long range high throughput radios wouldn't make 
you go broke.


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:
I tell them the fiber is down. I guess I could go broke trying to be 
more fault tolerant. Please understand I appreciate your feedback but 
understand that my service area does not have a single fault tolerant 
broadband solution. If people want fault tolerance here then the 
option is to buy two broadband connections from two providers and have 
an auto-fail over router. I promote this to people who want fault 
tolerant connectivity. If/when we roll out our 12 county AWS based 
broadband / cell network we will be multi-homed. Until then the 
economics of this would make us broke. I am not exaggerating.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:

Sure it is more costly than being single-homed, but being multi-homed 
is pretty important. If your single provider goes down what do you 
tell your customers?


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market 
is not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to 
swing redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the 
nearest telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will 
probably do that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make 
that place a new business opportunity in itself.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:

Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district 
and fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits 
from the school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about 
doing this again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid 
thing has an IP address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has 
enough smarts to do this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to 
block an offending IP address, and I am stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:


http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/










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Re: [WISPA] outside connection

2007-03-16 Thread J. Vogel

*grin*   The some success part was because they could yet fail, and I
haven't
used a lot of them. maybe 5 or 6. I have some out for a couple of years now,
and have yet to have one fail, but I sure wouldn't want to bet my entire
business
case on them, or any other splice method either. :)

John

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

 some success  :)

 They have leaked for me.  If I have to splice I try to do it inside at
 point of entry with a coupler or keystone jack.  If it has to be done
 outside I use these..

 http://www.shop.com/op/~PETRA_300_071_UY_Gel_Splice_Connector_2_Port-prod-30304739-39574282?sourceid=3


 and mastic and super 33+.

 Brian

 J. Vogel wrote:
 I have used these with some success.

 http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=565-0107R=565%2D0107sid=45F9DE0075EFE17F


 John

 Travis Johnson wrote:
  
 Hi,

 We sometimes have to move people's radios because of tree growth,
 changing towers, etc. The biggest pain is having to re-run the CAT5
 cable because it won't reach. Has anyone ever seen some type of
 outdoor coupler or even something you could put around a normal
 coupler and just extend the cable without re-running the whole thing?

 Thanks,

 Travis
 Microserv
 
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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread George Rogato

You know, this really is the answer. Two different isp's

 I've had the customers over the years,  that want 10- 9's because 
their business depends upon the internet, but then they don't want to 
pay an extra 30 - 40.00 per month to get it.



John Scrivner wrote:
I tell them the fiber is down. I guess I could go broke trying to be 
more fault tolerant. Please understand I appreciate your feedback but 
understand that my service area does not have a single fault tolerant 
broadband solution. If people want fault tolerance here then the option 
is to buy two broadband connections from two providers and have an 
auto-fail over router. I promote this to people who want fault tolerant 
connectivity. If/when we roll out our 12 county AWS based broadband / 
cell network we will be multi-homed. Until then the economics of this 
would make us broke. I am not exaggerating.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:

Sure it is more costly than being single-homed, but being multi-homed 
is pretty important. If your single provider goes down what do you 
tell your customers?


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:

Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market 
is not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to 
swing redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the 
nearest telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will 
probably do that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make 
that place a new business opportunity in itself.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:

Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district 
and fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from 
the school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing 
this again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has 
an IP address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough 
smarts to do this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to block an 
offending IP address, and I am stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:


http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/










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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Matt Liotta

George Rogato wrote:

You know, this really is the answer. Two different isp's

 I've had the customers over the years,  that want 10- 9's because 
their business depends upon the internet, but then they don't want to 
pay an extra 30 - 40.00 per month to get it.
So you would recommend to your customer to have two different ISPs, but 
for your business, which is an ISP... you don't think you should be 
multi-homed?


-Matt

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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread George Rogato

Matt Liotta wrote:

George Rogato wrote:

You know, this really is the answer. Two different isp's

 I've had the customers over the years,  that want 10- 9's because 
their business depends upon the internet, but then they don't want to 
pay an extra 30 - 40.00 per month to get it.
So you would recommend to your customer to have two different ISPs, but 
for your business, which is an ISP... you don't think you should be 
multi-homed?


-Matt



Of course I should be multi homed.
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Re: [WISPA] Weatherproofing

2007-03-16 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Yeppers.  The only things I'd have done differently is a little further down 
on the coax and a higher quality black tape.  Something that would have laid 
down nicer.


Nice work!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Edward J. Hatfield III [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:14 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Weatherproofing


The two attached photos are from an installation we did in Louisiana ~6
years ago, and show how weatherproofed connections should look when
completed--no moisture ingress anywhere to this day. This method has been a
standard in the wireless world at least since the microwave long lines days
and is still used by cellular/PCS carriers.
Ted Hatfield, President
E.J. Hatfield  Company
5142 Edgemoor Drive
Norcross, GA 30071-4342 USA
1-770-209-9236 - Office
1-770-209-9238 - Fax
1-770-560-0736 - Sprint
1-678-457-8411 - Cingular
154*273*18 - NexTel

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:46 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Wireless Digest, Vol 25, Issue 30







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RE: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Jeff Broadwick
I suppose it could be worse...this was a customer that we know from
Honduras:

http://www.bayislandsvoice.com/issue-v5-2.htm

At least Level3 didn't come in with guns...

Jeff
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

See now that is the issue around here.

If we want true redundancy we need to ride two different fibers out of town.
One is the fiber we are already on, and the other is the expensive guys
Qwest.

We hate to give Qwest a dime.


Matt Liotta wrote:
 Sure it is more costly than being single-homed, but being multi-homed 
 is pretty important. If your single provider goes down what do you 
 tell your customers?
 
 -Matt
 
 John Scrivner wrote:
 Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market 
 is not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
 multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to 
 swing redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the 
 nearest telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will 
 probably do that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make 
 that place a new business opportunity in itself.
 Scriv


 Matt Liotta wrote:

 It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

 -Matt

 Tim Wolfe wrote:

 Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
 for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
 local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district 
 and fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from 
 the school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing 
 this again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has 
 an IP address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough 
 smarts to do this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to block an 
 offending IP address, and I am stupid, LOL!


 Matt Liotta wrote:

 http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/



 

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Re: [WISPA] Many thanks

2007-03-16 Thread RickG

Does that stuff come off if/when you need to remove it?
I always use the manufacturer's recommendation:
http://www.timesmicrowave.com/connectors/hdw_install.shtml
-RickG

On 3/16/07, Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Check out this.

http://www.dslreports.com/speak/slideshow/14670691?c=914265ret=L2ZvcnVtL3JlbWFyaywxNDY1MTI2Mn5kYXlzPTk5OTl%2Bc3RhcnQ9MjA%3D

The product I prefer for the conformal sealing in the pic is...
http://www.sashcosealants.com/home_improvement/products/lexel.shtml
Read the specs on that stuff.  There isn't a job it can't do.

Tim Wolfe likes to use.(I used to use it on commercial gutter
installs when I worked for a steel roofing company, it's nice)
http://www.geocelusa.com/php/oic/product.php?prdb_product_id=48


Both are great products.  Hope it helps.  Well, I didn't read your
thread yet, but I will soon.  Either way.the way I go the route of
scotch 33+ (sticky side out)  Scotch 2210 and finish it with scotch 33+
(at least 4 layers).

Brian




John Scrivner wrote:
 I appreciate all the feedback on the moisture from all of you. I was
 not sure the proper way as I always used a completely different method
 in my CATV days. Our hard line was sealed with an adhesive lined heat
 shrink tubing. I actually saw water get into those connections too
 though so I was curious what you guys used. I am seeing a pattern from
 those of you who answered which looks like the plan going forward. The
 tape-mastic-tape 3-way sealing plan is going to be what we do from now
 on.
 Thanks guys,
 Scriv
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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread George Rogato

Makes me happy to live in the USA


Jeff Broadwick wrote:

I suppose it could be worse...this was a customer that we know from
Honduras:

http://www.bayislandsvoice.com/issue-v5-2.htm

At least Level3 didn't come in with guns...

Jeff
 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

See now that is the issue around here.

If we want true redundancy we need to ride two different fibers out of town.
One is the fiber we are already on, and the other is the expensive guys
Qwest.

We hate to give Qwest a dime.


Matt Liotta wrote:
Sure it is more costly than being single-homed, but being multi-homed 
is pretty important. If your single provider goes down what do you 
tell your customers?


-Matt

John Scrivner wrote:
Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market 
is not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to 
swing redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the 
nearest telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will 
probably do that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make 
that place a new business opportunity in itself.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:

Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district 
and fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from 
the school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing 
this again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has 
an IP address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough 
smarts to do this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to block an 
offending IP address, and I am stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:


http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/




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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread John Scrivner

Matt,
Charter Pipeline in this market is not multi-homed. It costs me about 
$40K per year to be multi-homed. I do not see it as a necessity. That is 
MY opinion.  It costs Joe User about $40 per month more to be 
multi-homed in my market. It is what I suggest to anyone who says they 
depend on their Internet for their livelihood. Why would you you not 
consider this a logical solution for your customer?


If I multi-home my upstream but not my backhaul then that is a point of 
failure. If I multi-home my upstream and my backhaul but my AP for that 
sector is not duplicated with a backup fail over unit then that is a 
point of failure. If I do not have two subscriber CPE at each customer 
location then that becomes a point of failure. The smarter approach in 
my opinion is to sell two separate services to your mission critical 
customers from two separate providers and link through a fail over 
router. At least that becomes the single only point of failure in the 
solution. But you know what, you should do it however you want because 
you own your business and that is YOUR choice. If you think you can make 
your system never fail and still earn a profit then more power to you. I 
would rather sell decent quality broadband service, make some money and 
use secondary broadband providers in my area as fail over for those 
customers who demand near perfection. I am a smaller operator in a rural 
area and this is the trade off I choose to make to deliver the best value.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


George Rogato wrote:


You know, this really is the answer. Two different isp's

 I've had the customers over the years,  that want 10- 9's because 
their business depends upon the internet, but then they don't want to 
pay an extra 30 - 40.00 per month to get it.


So you would recommend to your customer to have two different ISPs, 
but for your business, which is an ISP... you don't think you should 
be multi-homed?


-Matt


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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Alan Cain

Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:



I tried using silicone on the connectors but that eventually shrinks 
and there's something in it that corrodes the connectors.  Bad idea.

Acetic Acid (aka vinegar) is the byproduct of the curing process.


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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread John Thomas

Having a 4xT as a backup is better than no connection.

John

John Scrivner wrote:
Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market 
is not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to 
swing redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the nearest 
telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will probably 
do that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make that place a 
new business opportunity in itself.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:

Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district 
and fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from 
the school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing 
this again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has 
an IP address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough 
smarts to do this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to block an 
offending IP address, and I am stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:


http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/








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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Blair Davis

Same here.  Coax Seal is GREAT!!!



Travis Johnson wrote:
We started using Coax-Seal about two years ago and have never had a 
problem since. It's moldable so you wrap the connector and then form 
it around the connections. Quick, easy and cheap. Even on mountaintops 
at 9000ft elevation with 60mph winds and freezing rain/ice we have 
never had a problem.


Travis
Microserv

John Scrivner wrote:
I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been 
installing outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I 
would like to see fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see 
problems with the occasional connection outside at the antenna 
getting water into it. We use the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal the 
connections. The guys do not like having to climb and they work hard 
to try to make sure we do not get these problems and yet they come 
back. I would like to hear what you veterans out there are doing to 
make sure the water stays out.

Thanks,
Scriv



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AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC

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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread Travis Johnson

Just a couple quick points...

You mentioned you are 75 miles from the nearest telco-hotel. We are 200 
miles from the nearest telco POP. There are ways to be redundant in 
these rural markets without it costing you a fortune.


Next, being multi-homed is different than a redundant links to towers or 
redundant AP's, etc. because if your one connection goes down so do ALL 
of your customers... if you have a single AP or single backhaul fail, 
not ALL of your customers are down.


We currently have three providers and I am able to sleep at night... we 
see BGP bounces and drops all the time (across all of them)... plus 
their scheduled maintenance windows do not affect us at all... we could 
completely loose a provider now and not even tell the difference.


I would suggest everyone look into _some_ type of redundant connection 
on your upstream. It wasn't that long ago that ATT had a major BGP 
blowup and 50% of their network was down for 8-10 hours. Could your ISP 
survive that type of outage?


Travis
Microserv

John Scrivner wrote:

Matt,
Charter Pipeline in this market is not multi-homed. It costs me about 
$40K per year to be multi-homed. I do not see it as a necessity. That 
is MY opinion.  It costs Joe User about $40 per month more to be 
multi-homed in my market. It is what I suggest to anyone who says they 
depend on their Internet for their livelihood. Why would you you not 
consider this a logical solution for your customer?


If I multi-home my upstream but not my backhaul then that is a point 
of failure. If I multi-home my upstream and my backhaul but my AP for 
that sector is not duplicated with a backup fail over unit then that 
is a point of failure. If I do not have two subscriber CPE at each 
customer location then that becomes a point of failure. The smarter 
approach in my opinion is to sell two separate services to your 
mission critical customers from two separate providers and link 
through a fail over router. At least that becomes the single only 
point of failure in the solution. But you know what, you should do it 
however you want because you own your business and that is YOUR 
choice. If you think you can make your system never fail and still 
earn a profit then more power to you. I would rather sell decent 
quality broadband service, make some money and use secondary broadband 
providers in my area as fail over for those customers who demand near 
perfection. I am a smaller operator in a rural area and this is the 
trade off I choose to make to deliver the best value.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


George Rogato wrote:


You know, this really is the answer. Two different isp's

 I've had the customers over the years,  that want 10- 9's because 
their business depends upon the internet, but then they don't want 
to pay an extra 30 - 40.00 per month to get it.


So you would recommend to your customer to have two different ISPs, 
but for your business, which is an ISP... you don't think you should 
be multi-homed?


-Matt


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Re: [WISPA] anyone see this?

2007-03-16 Thread John Scrivner
As I stated earlier I appreciate everyone's ideas but last I checked I 
run my own business. Everyone can do their business however they wish. I 
do not consider the fiber connection I have to be the weak point in my 
network. There are several points of failure in an ISP including your 
system I am guessing. I happen to believe diversity of service providers 
to the end user is the most pragmatic approach to mission critical 
Internet delivery. You and others may not agree. Life goes on.

Scriv


John Thomas wrote:


Having a 4xT as a backup is better than no connection.

John

John Scrivner wrote:

Maybe it is very costly to do? Charter Pipeline service in my market 
is not multi-homed either. Neither am I at this point. I used to be 
multi-homed in the days when 2 T1s did the job. It is not easy to 
swing redundant fiber runs in a town that is 75 miles from the 
nearest telco-hotel. When I get multi-homed fibers here then I will 
probably do that through a mini-telco-hotel facility here and make 
that place a new business opportunity in itself.

Scriv


Matt Liotta wrote:


It does make you wonder why the ISP in question wasn't multi-homed.

-Matt

Tim Wolfe wrote:

Thank The good Lord above that I never signed the TelCove contract 
for bandwidth last year!. I mean, you really have no idea what the 
local provider was doing wrong, but to turn off a school district 
and fire CO on that system, COME ON!. You can bet the lawsuits from 
the school district alone will make Level 3 think twice about doing 
this again?. If  you have an offending server, the stupid thing has 
an IP address, Block it!. I would hope that Level 3 has enough 
smarts to do this?. Even a little guy like me knows how to block an 
offending IP address, and I am stupid, LOL!



Matt Liotta wrote:


http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/why-did-level-3-turn-off-a-rural-isp/










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[WISPA] Tranzeo WDS?

2007-03-16 Thread Jim Stout
Does anyone have any experience using Tranzeo's WDS to extend the reach of an 
AP?  I'm using a TR6000 in bridge mode and would like extend my reach to 
another neighborhood!  

Still have space on the T1 and the customers keep coming!  Thanks to everyone 
for your help!

Jim

Jim Stout
LTO Communications, LLC
15701 Henry Andrews Dr
Pleasant Hill, MO 64080
(816) 305-1076 - Mobile
(816) 497-0033 - Pager
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[WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-16 Thread Scott Reed
Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios to 
the bottom of towers.


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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-16 Thread George Rogato

Scott Reed wrote:
Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios to 
the bottom of towers.




You can buy them preterminated from electro-comm.com

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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Mario Pommier

Where do you get it?

Mario

Blair Davis wrote:

Same here.  Coax Seal is GREAT!!!



Travis Johnson wrote:
We started using Coax-Seal about two years ago and have never had a 
problem since. It's moldable so you wrap the connector and then form 
it around the connections. Quick, easy and cheap. Even on 
mountaintops at 9000ft elevation with 60mph winds and freezing 
rain/ice we have never had a problem.


Travis
Microserv

John Scrivner wrote:
I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been 
installing outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I 
would like to see fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see 
problems with the occasional connection outside at the antenna 
getting water into it. We use the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal 
the connections. The guys do not like having to climb and they work 
hard to try to make sure we do not get these problems and yet they 
come back. I would like to hear what you veterans out there are 
doing to make sure the water stays out.

Thanks,
Scriv







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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-16 Thread Mario Pommier

Smart move!!!
When at all possible, we do that: active elements inside, inactive 
antenna outside.
   Design your grounding properly (NOT A MINOR ACHIEVEMENT!!!) and 
you're set: EVERYTHING goes to 1 common ground, coax lightning kits 
(outdoors) and in line lightning arrestors (indoors) go  to different 
grounding blocks.

   Have a problem, check out the radio indoors.
   We even do this with outdoor-rated radios, specially for backhaul 
AccessUnits and RemoteBridges.
   Cell companies do it this way because it's less prone to issues and 
they have the money to pay for it.  In this case, the cost is worth it 
if you ask me.
   On WaterTanks we've set up an outdoor, temp controlled weatherproof 
box (engineered in house with DC-powered fans and battery backup at the 
base) to house the outdoor units.  I should send you pictures.


Mario

Scott Reed wrote:
Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios to 
the bottom of towers.






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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-16 Thread Scott Reed

Yep, that is where I want head.  Where do you get your cables?

Mario Pommier wrote:

Smart move!!!
When at all possible, we do that: active elements inside, inactive 
antenna outside.
   Design your grounding properly (NOT A MINOR ACHIEVEMENT!!!) and 
you're set: EVERYTHING goes to 1 common ground, coax lightning kits 
(outdoors) and in line lightning arrestors (indoors) go  to different 
grounding blocks.

   Have a problem, check out the radio indoors.
   We even do this with outdoor-rated radios, specially for backhaul 
AccessUnits and RemoteBridges.
   Cell companies do it this way because it's less prone to issues and 
they have the money to pay for it.  In this case, the cost is worth it 
if you ask me.
   On WaterTanks we've set up an outdoor, temp controlled weatherproof 
box (engineered in house with DC-powered fans and battery backup at 
the base) to house the outdoor units.  I should send you pictures.


Mario

Scott Reed wrote:
Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios to 
the bottom of towers.








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Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Tom DeReggi

Marlon,

Now thats a good explanation of how to do waterproofing correctly, that you 
made.


The secret to good waterproofing is the right amount of stretch of the 
Mastic tape. Its the stretch that allows the tape to optimally bond to its 
surface and fill the gaps. Just pushing the goop in place does not allow it 
to bond optimally. Remember temperature causes things to expand and 
contract. Mastic tape is NOT glue. It sticks to itself very well, but not 
necessarilly flush against other surfaces.


Anyway, there are many ways to skin a cat, as this thread has shown. . And 
the third party Kit products were made for a reason, to simplify the 
process. I'm sure most of them work as those of you have given testimonials. 
But using good old Mastic, and Super 88 (or 33) is a cost effective way to 
do it, well. For those that want to create the internal non-stick layer so 
be it, but don't give up the tension applying the Mastic tape, as that is 
what is making the seal. And make sure it extends past the inner layer as 
much as possible, so it can bond to the ingress area. (Note: I stated 
Tension on the Mastic, not the Super 88).  Personally, I see little reason 
to remove a connector from an antenna once its been installed.  So I don't 
worry much about taking the goop off. I deal with it, the few times its 
required.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress



sigh

Larsen, when can you and I hook up and do a video of the RIGHT way to 
weather seal?  hehehehe


First, John, I'm gonna assume that your guys know nothing so please take 
no offence.


The FIRST and MOST important step in a good water seal is the antenna! 
Jer would be quick to remind me of that painful lesson as it applies to 
the old Mobile Mark black 9dB omni antennas.  The antenna connector at the 
bottom was SCREWED into the mast below the weep hole.  Water would 
eventually wick down into the connection via the threads, no matter how 
good you were at weather sealing.  I LOVE those antennas, they work 
incredibly well, but they just don't last.


You have to watch for things like people using those danged bulkhead 
connectors with the flat sides on them.  Also watch for the nut on the 
outside of the connection.  If it's not also covered there's a spot for 
water to wick down into the connection.


When I run into those flat sided connectors I will stretch my mastic very 
thin to make sure that I get the goop down into the cut down area.  The 
down side to this is that the mastic will eventually ooze into the threads 
and make the connection REALLY hard to take apart.  I always figured that 
a connection that's easy to take apart will also be more likely to leak 
though.


I try to get antennas that have a longer connector on them when I can.  I 
also require that antennas I use have room for a whole roll of tape 
between the connectors and any other parts.  If I can't put the tape on 
correctly it will leak someday.


I tried using silicone on the connectors but that eventually shrinks and 
there's something in it that corrodes the connectors.  Bad idea.


I tried putting a layer of black tape on before I put on the mastic, then 
I decided that that was a silly idea because that inside layer is the 
water proofing and if it's easy to take off it's more likely to leak.


On the new Maxrad hpol adjustable beam sectors that I like so much I take 
them to a machine shop and cut off part of the braketry so that I can seal 
things up better.  I'm not afraid to modify the mounting systems on 
antennas if it'll let me do a better job of sealing them up.


I only use high end connectors.  Times Microwave all the way.

Here's how I seal a connector:
Use one wrap of scotch 2228 mastic.  Stretch it to half it's original 
width and overlap each layer by half.  This give you a two layer thick 
coating. Start at the bottom about a half inch PAST the heat shrink.  Heat 
shrink is NOT water tight.  It's a strain relief...  Up near the connector 
bulkhead end I will wrap the tape enough to make sure that there's a bit 
blob of it around anything that might allow water in, especially the 
bulkhead it's self.  Then wrap back down to the middle of the connector.


Next I use Scotch 33+ tape (none of the cheap crap gets used anywhere 
here). This gets two layers that are overlapped by half.  Start so that 
your LAST layer goes up.  It should leave a pattern kinda like siding. 
You want the water to run off of the seams not follow down into them. 
This needs to be wrapped so that it's smooth, no creases allowed.  A 
crease is an air gap, air = water.  Stretch the tape just enough to pull 
to all of the wrinkles, too tight and over time it'll actually slide off 
of the connector.  It may do this over time anyway but 

Re: [WISPA] Moisture Ingress

2007-03-16 Thread Travis Johnson
There are a lot of places that sell it... I buy it from Electrocomm in 
the large rolls. I think it's 1/2 wide by 12ft long for $7 each... we 
use about 6 inches per seal... so that's 24 seals for roughly $.30 each.


Here is the actual website: http://www.coaxseal.com

They have a list of distributors, etc. on that page.

Travis
Microserv

Mario Pommier wrote:

Where do you get it?

Mario

Blair Davis wrote:

Same here.  Coax Seal is GREAT!!!



Travis Johnson wrote:
We started using Coax-Seal about two years ago and have never had a 
problem since. It's moldable so you wrap the connector and then form 
it around the connections. Quick, easy and cheap. Even on 
mountaintops at 9000ft elevation with 60mph winds and freezing 
rain/ice we have never had a problem.


Travis
Microserv

John Scrivner wrote:
I would like a bit of feedback from those of you who have been 
installing outdoor antennas for a while. I have a problem that I 
would like to see fixed. It seems that after every long rain we see 
problems with the occasional connection outside at the antenna 
getting water into it. We use the Scotch seal mastic tape to seal 
the connections. The guys do not like having to climb and they work 
hard to try to make sure we do not get these problems and yet they 
come back. I would like to hear what you veterans out there are 
doing to make sure the water stays out.

Thanks,
Scriv








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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-16 Thread Travis Johnson
I'm sure you've already checked all the numbers, but even with LMR900 at 
5.8ghz there can be a great deal of loss:


LMR-600 going 100ft at 5.8ghz = 8db of loss
LMR-900 going 100ft at 5.8ghz = 6db of loss

We have switched some of our backhaul links to this same setup (radio 
inside, LMR-400 cable up the tower) but we don't ever go over 50ft... 
and that's still about 5db of loss. It's hard to give up those db, but 
sometimes well worth it. :)


Travis
Microserv

Scott Reed wrote:

Yep, that is where I want head.  Where do you get your cables?

Mario Pommier wrote:

Smart move!!!
When at all possible, we do that: active elements inside, inactive 
antenna outside.
   Design your grounding properly (NOT A MINOR ACHIEVEMENT!!!) and 
you're set: EVERYTHING goes to 1 common ground, coax lightning kits 
(outdoors) and in line lightning arrestors (indoors) go  to different 
grounding blocks.

   Have a problem, check out the radio indoors.
   We even do this with outdoor-rated radios, specially for backhaul 
AccessUnits and RemoteBridges.
   Cell companies do it this way because it's less prone to issues 
and they have the money to pay for it.  In this case, the cost is 
worth it if you ask me.
   On WaterTanks we've set up an outdoor, temp controlled 
weatherproof box (engineered in house with DC-powered fans and 
battery backup at the base) to house the outdoor units.  I should 
send you pictures.


Mario

Scott Reed wrote:
Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios 
to the bottom of towers.









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Re: [WISPA] Many thanks

2007-03-16 Thread Tim Wolfe

FYI, I only use GeoCel on roofs and mast mounts, NOT radio connectors. ;-)


Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

Check out this.

http://www.dslreports.com/speak/slideshow/14670691?c=914265ret=L2ZvcnVtL3JlbWFyaywxNDY1MTI2Mn5kYXlzPTk5OTl%2Bc3RhcnQ9MjA%3D 



The product I prefer for the conformal sealing in the pic is...
http://www.sashcosealants.com/home_improvement/products/lexel.shtml
Read the specs on that stuff.  There isn't a job it can't do.

Tim Wolfe likes to use.(I used to use it on commercial gutter 
installs when I worked for a steel roofing company, it's nice)

http://www.geocelusa.com/php/oic/product.php?prdb_product_id=48


Both are great products.  Hope it helps.  Well, I didn't read your 
thread yet, but I will soon.  Either way.the way I go the route of 
scotch 33+ (sticky side out)  Scotch 2210 and finish it with scotch 
33+ (at least 4 layers).


Brian




John Scrivner wrote:
I appreciate all the feedback on the moisture from all of you. I was 
not sure the proper way as I always used a completely different 
method in my CATV days. Our hard line was sealed with an adhesive 
lined heat shrink tubing. I actually saw water get into those 
connections too though so I was curious what you guys used. I am 
seeing a pattern from those of you who answered which looks like the 
plan going forward. The tape-mastic-tape 3-way sealing plan is going 
to be what we do from now on.

Thanks guys,
Scriv


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Re: [WISPA] Calea - what will we need to provide ?

2007-03-16 Thread Butch Evans

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007, Rick Smith wrote:

Is there anywhere online that actually states WHAT we will need to 
provide ?


I.e. data format, etc.  - It was my impression that this was still 
under discussion at the FBI...


The exact format and method of delivery has not been decided.  There 
are several people working on this exact question.  More will be 
known after March 22.


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Re: [WISPA] Calea - what will we need to provide ?

2007-03-16 Thread Butch Evans

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007, wispa wrote:

There is a specific data format, called LAES, which is an acronym 
for something or other.


LAES is a delivery protocol, not data format.

As best I can tell, this format costs a license fee if you wish to 
program something to use it.  Thus, NO OPEN SOURCE IS POSSIBLE.


Not true.  http://www.opencalea.org/.  There is a company (not gonna 
mention a name) that is currently working to have an open source, 
freely available WORKING solution that can be installed on your 
linux server.


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