[WISPA] More static on WhiteSpace issue

2007-03-17 Thread David Hughes
Sparring over broadband via TV


March 17, 2007

WASHINGTON -- Microsoft Corp., Google Inc. and other technology companies
are bumping into resistance from television broadcasters as they seek
regulatory approval to deliver high-speed Internet service over unused
television airwaves.

The technology companies, which have submitted a prototype device to the
Federal Communications Commission for testing, say their intent is to make
broadband Internet connections accessible and affordable to millions more
Americans.

Broadcasters, though, fear the unproven device could interfere with TV
reception, and even some technology experts have reservations about how well
the device will perform. Matters could get even more complicated,
broadcasters say, when the industry switches from analog to digital signals
in February 2009.

At the center of this dispute are unused and unlicensed TV airwaves, part of
the spectrum known as white spaces. They are located between channels 2
and 51 on televisions that aren't hooked up to satellite or cable, though
use of such services would not preclude anyone from accessing the Internet
over unused spectrum in their region.

This is some prime spectrum real estate, said Ben Scott, policy director
for Free Press, a national nonpartisan public interest research group that
supports using the public airwaves for Internet service.

The technology companies want to beam Internet access through the white
space and into computers and mobile devices. They argue rural Americans
would benefit greatly because the technology enables Internet service to
remote areas at a fraction of the cost of cable- and telephone-based
subscription services.

This is Wi-Fi on steroids, Scott said.

Scott Blake Harris, an attorney representing a coalition of technology
companies that typically compete with one another, said he believes the FCC
should authorize this technology so long as its proponents can prove it will
not disrupt TV programming.

But broadcasters want the FCC to proceed cautiously.

The National Association of Broadcasters, which represents more than a
thousand local TV stations as well as major broadcasters including Walt
Disney Co.'s ABC division and Univision Communications Inc., insists the
industry is not against the new technology - only worried about unintended
consequences.

If they [the technology companies] are wrong, once those devices get
introduced that means that people won't be able to get clear television
pictures, NAB spokesman Dennis Wharton said.

Shure Inc., a manufacturer of wireless microphones, has also expressed
concerns, saying use of white space for Internet services could cause
interference with audio systems at concerts and sporting events.

Potential pitfalls aside, proponents of the new technology - including Dell
Inc., Hewlett-Packard Co., Intel Corp. and Philips Electronics North America
Corp., a division of Netherlands-based Royal Philips Electronics NV - say it
could also spur innovation.

Paul Brownell, a government relations manager at Dell, said white-space
spectrum could be used to stream video and audio throughout a house without
running wires all over the place. Dell is interested in building computers
that would come preprogrammed to recognize Internet service delivered via
white space.

Advocates said the white-space spectrum is too valuable to be left idle
because the television airwaves can transmit better signal quality through
obstacles and to a wider geographic area. In rural areas, the new technology
is an attractive alternative to phone-, cable- or satellite-based Internet
service because it would not require expensive infrastructure to be built,
they said.

The lack of infrastructure is a key reason why many rural areas lack
high-speed Internet service. A recent Pew Internet  American Life Project
found that only 30 percent of rural residents have high-speed Internet as
compared with 49 percent for suburban residents and 52 percent for urban
Americans.

David T. Hughes
Director, Corporate Communications
Roadstar Internet
604 South King Street -Suite 200
Leesburg, VA 20175
-HOME OF INET LOUDOUN-
Office - (703) 234-9969
Direct - (703) 953-1645
Cell -(703) 587-3282
Corporate Offices - (703) 554-6621
Fax - (703) 258-0003
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AIM: dhughes248 - Video conference capable



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RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Ralph
You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure.   Stick with Heliax (r)  type
cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is
amazing at anything above 450 MHz.  Look at any cell tower and you will see
what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many
more times that at 5.2 or 5.8  Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot,
once installed properly.

This brings you to the next obvious issue.  Now for the lesson in RADIO.

You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that
your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was.  You
may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at
the car dealer down the street).

So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible.  Of course
now that moves us to the next step.  Can't get a high gain antenna because
now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the
pattern is too narrow.

On to the next step-  More APs so you can cover the areas that your new
high-gain antennas leave out.  Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc.

Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp.   Create noise, Violate
Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine.

Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard
way:  Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof,
lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for
in the first place!


Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios to 
the bottom of towers.

-- 
Scott Reed
Owner
NewWays
Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
www.nwwnet.net

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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Scott Reed
Thanks for the reminder.  As with most of life, there is no one right 
answer.

On towers over 100' or so, radios at the top and pay the climbers as needed.
For shorter towers, which server smaller area anyway, I am looking at 
higher power, more sensitive radios at the bottom to offset the cable 
loss and reduce the need for climbers for repairs.  Also, less climber 
time to install and when the time comes to add antennas.


Yes, obviously not every site gets the same treatment.  I do have one 
100' tower with a SmartBridges Pro Outdoor at the bottom and 120' of 
LMR400 going to an omni that is getting exactly the coverage area I need 
and expected it to deliver.  I have other locations that I can not 
afford to lose one bit of gain from what I have.  I have new locations 
that, if I decide to put radios at the ground, will have coverage areas 
based on what is available from the radio/cable/antenna.


Ralph wrote:

You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure.   Stick with Heliax (r)  type
cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is
amazing at anything above 450 MHz.  Look at any cell tower and you will see
what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many
more times that at 5.2 or 5.8  Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot,
once installed properly.

This brings you to the next obvious issue.  Now for the lesson in RADIO.

You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that
your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was.  You
may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at
the car dealer down the street).

So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible.  Of course
now that moves us to the next step.  Can't get a high gain antenna because
now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the
pattern is too narrow.

On to the next step-  More APs so you can cover the areas that your new
high-gain antennas leave out.  Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc.

Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp.   Create noise, Violate
Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine.

Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard
way:  Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof,
lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for
in the first place!


Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios to 
the bottom of towers.


  


--
Scott Reed
Owner
NewWays
Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
www.nwwnet.net

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RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread JohnnyO
Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this.

Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can
be had for $1.50/ft  What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax
? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ?

Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By
all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the
tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but
BS

Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft

2.4ghz = 2dB
900mhz = 1.1dB

Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft 

5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss
2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss
900mhz = .8dB loss

You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector.

Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS
will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios
at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive
side.

You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP
! 

Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable /
amp combos to go with.

The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you
weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along
the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again
! 

Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING
you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely
different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule
headed post :)

JohnnyO


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure.   Stick with Heliax (r)
type
cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss
is
amazing at anything above 450 MHz.  Look at any cell tower and you will
see
what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or
many
more times that at 5.2 or 5.8  Look at a price range of tens of $ a
foot,
once installed properly.

This brings you to the next obvious issue.  Now for the lesson in RADIO.

You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure
that
your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was.
You
may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say
at
the car dealer down the street).

So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible.  Of
course
now that moves us to the next step.  Can't get a high gain antenna
because
now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or
the
pattern is too narrow.

On to the next step-  More APs so you can cover the areas that your new
high-gain antennas leave out.  Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc.

Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp.   Create noise,
Violate
Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine.

Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard
way:  Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job,
weatherproof,
lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt
for
in the first place!


Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios to 
the bottom of towers.

-- 
Scott Reed
Owner
NewWays
Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
www.nwwnet.net

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3/16/2007 12:12 PM


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Re: [WISPA] Calea - what will we need to provide ?

2007-03-17 Thread Frank Muto

LAES = lawfully authorized electronic surveillance



Frank Muto
Co-founder WBIA 
www.wbia.us









- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Calea - what will we need to provide ?



On Mon, 12 Mar 2007, wispa wrote:

There is a specific data format, called LAES, which is an acronym 
for something or other.


LAES is a delivery protocol, not data format.

As best I can tell, this format costs a license fee if you wish to 
program something to use it.  Thus, NO OPEN SOURCE IS POSSIBLE.


Not true.  http://www.opencalea.org/.  There is a company (not gonna 
mention a name) that is currently working to have an open source, 
freely available WORKING solution that can be installed on your 
linux server.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879


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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Blair Davis

We use both methods, depending on how hard the location is to climb

For locations that are easy to climb, we put the radio at the top.  
We've made our radios easy to feild swap on the tower. Four nuts, one 
N-connector and an outdoor cat5.  This swaps everything except the 
antenna and coax.  Static protection, grounding, electronics all swap 
out as a unit.


For locations that are hard to climb, I use radio at bottom, amp and 
antenna at top.  Started out using HyperLink amps, now use RF Linx.  
Over 7 years, I've had 2 amps fail, and 1 antenna and amp destroyed by a 
direct strike.  In the direct strike, the amp saved the coax down the 
tower and all the radio gear below...


And RF Linx replaced the amp under warranty.

There is room for both methods and a wise engineer picks the appropriate 
one for the location.


JohnnyO wrote:

Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this.

Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can
be had for $1.50/ft  What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax
? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ?

Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By
all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the
tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but
BS

Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft

2.4ghz = 2dB
900mhz = 1.1dB

Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft 


5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss
2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss
900mhz = .8dB loss

You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector.

Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS
will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios
at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive
side.

You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP
! 


Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable /
amp combos to go with.

The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you
weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along
the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again
! 


Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING
you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely
different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule
headed post :)

JohnnyO


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure.   Stick with Heliax (r)
type
cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss
is
amazing at anything above 450 MHz.  Look at any cell tower and you will
see
what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or
many
more times that at 5.2 or 5.8  Look at a price range of tens of $ a
foot,
once installed properly.

This brings you to the next obvious issue.  Now for the lesson in RADIO.

You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure
that
your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was.
You
may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say
at
the car dealer down the street).

So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible.  Of
course
now that moves us to the next step.  Can't get a high gain antenna
because
now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or
the
pattern is too narrow.

On to the next step-  More APs so you can cover the areas that your new
high-gain antennas leave out.  Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc.

Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp.   Create noise,
Violate
Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine.

Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard
way:  Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job,
weatherproof,
lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt
for
in the first place!


Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios to 
the bottom of towers.


  


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[WISPA] LiteStation5

2007-03-17 Thread Andrew Niemantsverdriet

Has anybody used these? Do they work well? Are they stable?

Can they do 5.3GHz or just 5.8GHz?

Just wondering how they work.

Thanks
Andrew
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Re: [WISPA] LiteStation5

2007-03-17 Thread George Rogato

Got a url?

Andrew Niemantsverdriet wrote:

Has anybody used these? Do they work well? Are they stable?

Can they do 5.3GHz or just 5.8GHz?

Just wondering how they work.

Thanks
Andrew


--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Blair Davis
Have not had to, yet.  All my 5.8G stuff is on grain legs or water 
towers where I have easy access...  Even in bad weather.


George Rogato wrote:

What about 5 gig
Are you doing long runs and amps at 5gig?


Blair Davis wrote:

We use both methods, depending on how hard the location is to climb

For locations that are easy to climb, we put the radio at the top.  
We've made our radios easy to feild swap on the tower. Four nuts, one 
N-connector and an outdoor cat5.  This swaps everything except the 
antenna and coax.  Static protection, grounding, electronics all swap 
out as a unit.


For locations that are hard to climb, I use radio at bottom, amp and 
antenna at top.  Started out using HyperLink amps, now use RF Linx.  
Over 7 years, I've had 2 amps fail, and 1 antenna and amp destroyed 
by a direct strike.  In the direct strike, the amp saved the coax 
down the tower and all the radio gear below...


And RF Linx replaced the amp under warranty.

There is room for both methods and a wise engineer picks the 
appropriate one for the location.


JohnnyO wrote:

Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this.

Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which 
can
be had for $1.50/ft  What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch 
heliax

? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ?

Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By
all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the
tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but
BS

Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft

2.4ghz = 2dB
900mhz = 1.1dB

Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft
5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss
2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss
900mhz = .8dB loss

You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector.

Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS
will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your 
radios

at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive
side.

You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper 
AMP

!
Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable /
amp combos to go with.

The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you
weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along
the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again
!
Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING
you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely
different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule
headed post :)

JohnnyO


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure.   Stick with Heliax (r)
type
cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss
is
amazing at anything above 450 MHz.  Look at any cell tower and you will
see
what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or
many
more times that at 5.2 or 5.8  Look at a price range of tens of $ a
foot,
once installed properly.

This brings you to the next obvious issue.  Now for the lesson in 
RADIO.


You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure
that
your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was.
You
may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they 
say

at
the car dealer down the street).

So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible.  Of
course
now that moves us to the next step.  Can't get a high gain antenna
because
now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or
the
pattern is too narrow.

On to the next step-  More APs so you can cover the areas that your new
high-gain antennas leave out.  Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc.

Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp.   Create noise,
Violate
Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine.

Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the 
hard

way:  Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job,
weatherproof,
lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt
for
in the first place!


Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios 
to the bottom of towers.


  






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Re: [WISPA] External battery on UPS

2007-03-17 Thread Anthony Will
I would be interested in learning more about it. 


Anthony
Broadband Corp.

Russ Kreigh wrote:

Yeah, it's completely possible, and will work well, at least once, until
the batteries are gone and need to be recharged.

The issue is the duty-cycle of the charger, your going from a 14ah to 100ah
charge load, the charger has to run 7-times as long to fully charge the
batteries, this may work fine with some higher end UPS, and some it might
burn up the charger.

Another thing to make note of, is that most UPS systems run an internal 24V
system, and not a 12V system, so be SURE which one you're dealing with
before you start any modifications.

We're in process of developing our own remote-site power solution.
Everything we've found is either too big physically, requiring expensive
outdoor enclosures, or doesn't have the run-time we desire, or is too
expensive.

I think we've got the basic design down, we're adding things like a local
power input option, so that in a long extended outage we can drop the
generator off to charge the batteries and run the system, and when the
utility power is restored, it will switch back automatically.

We're also looking into a direct 12v input from a vehicle cigarette lighter
output, or additional external batteries.

Would anyone have any interest in this when we get it complete?

Thanks,

Russ Kreigh
Network Engineer
OnlyInternet.Net
Supernova Technologies



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of paul hendry
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] External battery on UPS

Scott,

Surely it should be possible to replace 2 12v 7ah batteries run in 
parallel (not series) with 1 12v 100ah battery as the voltage isn't 
changing? With regards runtime I can just increase the external battery 
count.


Mac, don't worry I have no intention of putting my tongue on these 
things to see if they charged ;)


Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: Scott Reed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 02 March 2007 12:22

To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] External battery on UPS

The charger is designed for the size and number of batteries in the 
original configuration.  Changing the quantity and/or type of battery 
risks damaging either the charger or the batteries.


Also, runtime is determined by the batteries, so changing them changes 
the runtime.


paul hendry wrote:
  
Is anyone using external batteries on the larger APC UPS's? I've got 

an 
  
old Smart-UPS 3000 RM that has 8 x 12v batteries in it. The thing is 
they are wired in a bit of a strange config. It looks to me like they 
are split into 4 sets of 2 batteries running in series then 2 of those 



  
sets are cabled to the same connector inside the UPS and so there are 

2 
  

connectors with 4 batteries hanging of each.

Is there any reason I can't run 2 x 2 (in series) 12v 100ah batteries 
instead of the original 8? I don't seem to be able to and don't really 



  

want to get another 4 batteries just to discover I can do it with 4.

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

On 
  

Behalf Of Mark Nash - Lists
Sent: 16 November 2006 16:45
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] External battery on UPS

I replaced the two internal batteries last night with two external, 


$100
  
batteries, and put a load on the UPS that matched the highest load I 
have
out in the field (80w).  It took 2 Tranzeo APs, an Xpeed SDSL modem, 

and 
  

a
19 TV on the QVC to load it up properly.  Now instead of 1 hour I get 



  

13
hours.  Bigger, better batteries should net me more time than this.  

My 
  

goal
is bang for buck at this stage in my business...more run time for a 
sensible

price.

One cool thing about this setup is that I can rig it up to be able to 
simply
take new batteries out to a site when they are getting low, instead of 



  

the
generator.  I can keep some spare batteries charged up and ready to 


go.
  
It's a whole lot cheaper and easier than purchasing multiple QUALITY 
1000w
generators and putting large custom tanks on them.  That is if your 

UPS 
  

is
not on the top of a water tower or something. ;)

Mark Nash
Network Engineer
UnwiredOnline.Net
350 Holly Street
Junction City, OR 97448
http://www.uwol.net
541-998-
541-998-5599 fax

- Original Message - 
From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] External battery on UPS


  


I'm pasting Gino's link to the right thread.
Then I can search me email in a year and find the correct thread

Connectors:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=263-110

Batteries:

http://www.donrowe.com/batteries/8a31dt.html



Brian Rohrbacher wrote:


  

Can we get some links to these batteries that 

Re: [WISPA] LiteStation5

2007-03-17 Thread Frank Crawford
http://www.ubnt.com/litestation5.php4


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] LiteStation5


 Got a url?
 
 Andrew Niemantsverdriet wrote:
  Has anybody used these? Do they work well? Are they stable?
  
  Can they do 5.3GHz or just 5.8GHz?
  
  Just wondering how they work.
  
  Thanks
  Andrew
 
 -- 
 George Rogato
 
 Welcome to WISPA
 
 www.wispa.org
 
 http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] External battery on UPS

2007-03-17 Thread Andrew Niemantsverdriet

I would be insterested as well

On 3/17/07, Anthony Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I would be interested in learning more about it.

Anthony
Broadband Corp.

Russ Kreigh wrote:
 Yeah, it's completely possible, and will work well, at least once, until
 the batteries are gone and need to be recharged.

 The issue is the duty-cycle of the charger, your going from a 14ah to 100ah
 charge load, the charger has to run 7-times as long to fully charge the
 batteries, this may work fine with some higher end UPS, and some it might
 burn up the charger.

 Another thing to make note of, is that most UPS systems run an internal 24V
 system, and not a 12V system, so be SURE which one you're dealing with
 before you start any modifications.

 We're in process of developing our own remote-site power solution.
 Everything we've found is either too big physically, requiring expensive
 outdoor enclosures, or doesn't have the run-time we desire, or is too
 expensive.

 I think we've got the basic design down, we're adding things like a local
 power input option, so that in a long extended outage we can drop the
 generator off to charge the batteries and run the system, and when the
 utility power is restored, it will switch back automatically.

 We're also looking into a direct 12v input from a vehicle cigarette lighter
 output, or additional external batteries.

 Would anyone have any interest in this when we get it complete?

 Thanks,

 Russ Kreigh
 Network Engineer
 OnlyInternet.Net
 Supernova Technologies



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of paul hendry
 Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:09 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] External battery on UPS

 Scott,

 Surely it should be possible to replace 2 12v 7ah batteries run in
 parallel (not series) with 1 12v 100ah battery as the voltage isn't
 changing? With regards runtime I can just increase the external battery
 count.

 Mac, don't worry I have no intention of putting my tongue on these
 things to see if they charged ;)

 Cheers,

 P.

 -Original Message-
 From: Scott Reed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 02 March 2007 12:22
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] External battery on UPS

 The charger is designed for the size and number of batteries in the
 original configuration.  Changing the quantity and/or type of battery
 risks damaging either the charger or the batteries.

 Also, runtime is determined by the batteries, so changing them changes
 the runtime.

 paul hendry wrote:

 Is anyone using external batteries on the larger APC UPS's? I've got

 an

 old Smart-UPS 3000 RM that has 8 x 12v batteries in it. The thing is
 they are wired in a bit of a strange config. It looks to me like they
 are split into 4 sets of 2 batteries running in series then 2 of those



 sets are cabled to the same connector inside the UPS and so there are

 2

 connectors with 4 batteries hanging of each.

 Is there any reason I can't run 2 x 2 (in series) 12v 100ah batteries
 instead of the original 8? I don't seem to be able to and don't really



 want to get another 4 batteries just to discover I can do it with 4.

 Cheers,

 P.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 On

 Behalf Of Mark Nash - Lists
 Sent: 16 November 2006 16:45
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] External battery on UPS

 I replaced the two internal batteries last night with two external,

 $100

 batteries, and put a load on the UPS that matched the highest load I
 have
 out in the field (80w).  It took 2 Tranzeo APs, an Xpeed SDSL modem,

 and

 a
 19 TV on the QVC to load it up properly.  Now instead of 1 hour I get



 13
 hours.  Bigger, better batteries should net me more time than this.

 My

 goal
 is bang for buck at this stage in my business...more run time for a
 sensible
 price.

 One cool thing about this setup is that I can rig it up to be able to
 simply
 take new batteries out to a site when they are getting low, instead of



 the
 generator.  I can keep some spare batteries charged up and ready to

 go.

 It's a whole lot cheaper and easier than purchasing multiple QUALITY
 1000w
 generators and putting large custom tanks on them.  That is if your

 UPS

 is
 not on the top of a water tower or something. ;)

 Mark Nash
 Network Engineer
 UnwiredOnline.Net
 350 Holly Street
 Junction City, OR 97448
 http://www.uwol.net
 541-998-
 541-998-5599 fax

 - Original Message -
 From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:41 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] External battery on UPS




 I'm pasting Gino's link to the right thread.
 Then I can search me email in a year and find the correct thread

 Connectors:

 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=263-110

 Batteries:

 http://www.donrowe.com/batteries/8a31dt.html



 Brian Rohrbacher wrote:



[WISPA] Youtube

2007-03-17 Thread George Rogato

Can youtube be cached?

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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Bob Moldashel

OK.Lets talk cable

1.  You can't use 1 1/4 or 1 5/8 heliax at 5 Ghz anything.  Can't use 
7/8 heliax there either.  You canbut it won't work right


2. You can use 5/8 heliax at 5.8 Ghz and below.

3. LMR900 is the largest Times cable you can use at 5.8Ghz.

4. You can use 1 1/4 Heliax at 2.4 without issue.  2.5 Ghz is the top 
limit for 1 5/8 Heliax.


5. 1 1/4 heliax and above needs REAL mounting hardware to secure it to 
the tower or structure.  This means hanger brackets, hoisting grips,  
and ground kits made for heliax. Don't think you can tie a rope to it 
and pull it up or use tie wraps to secure it.  It won't hold more than 
100 feet or so vertically. 


6.  Heliax also means real connectors.

7. You can't lift several hundreds of feet of large heliax by hand (nor 
should you). You need a capstan/winch to do this right. 1 5/8 is about 1 
lb per foot.


8.  Connector attachment is more critical at 5 Ghz on heliax. We have 
seen connectors sweep like crap when it was thought they were installed 
correctly.


9. Do not use USED connectors. Always use new and follow the 
directions for attachment.


10. Personally I am not an LMR900 fan.  We use 5/8 heliax at this point.

11.  I am an LMR600 big fan.  We use a poopload of this cable every month.

12.  I use LMR400 for jumpers mostly

13. Losses are:

1 5/8   2.4 Ghz.   1.4dB   5Ghz.  Do Not Use
1 1/4   2.4 Ghz.1.6dB  5Ghz   Do Not Use
7/8  2.4 Ghz.2.3dB  5Ghz   Do Not Use
5/8  2.4 Ghz.2.0dB  5Ghz.   4.3 dB
1/2  2.4 Ghz 3.9db   5GHz.  6.3dB

LMR Cable loss is found on the Times web site.

14.  You can't make quick right angle turns with 1 1/4 and above.

15. Heliax is very unforgiving if you kink it or fold it in half.  If 
you fold it ya gotta cut it.


Installed properly heliax will be the better choice for low loss 
especially on long runs (200'+)


Bob
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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Bob Moldashel

OK.Now for the lesson in CABLE :-P

You can't use 1 5/8 heliax above 2.5 Ghz.  Its not rated for it.  And 
forget 5 Ghz.  Won't work. 


5/8 heliax MAX at 5 Ghz and above.

-B-



Ralph wrote:


You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure.   Stick with Heliax (r)  type
cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is
amazing at anything above 450 MHz.  Look at any cell tower and you will see
what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many
more times that at 5.2 or 5.8  Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot,
once installed properly.

This brings you to the next obvious issue.  Now for the lesson in RADIO.

You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that
your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was.  You
may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at
the car dealer down the street).

So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible.  Of course
now that moves us to the next step.  Can't get a high gain antenna because
now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the
pattern is too narrow.

On to the next step-  More APs so you can cover the areas that your new
high-gain antennas leave out.  Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc.

Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp.   Create noise, Violate
Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine.

Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard
way:  Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof,
lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for
in the first place!


Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' 
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios to 
the bottom of towers.


 



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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Tom DeReggi

Great post, Bob.

We use LMR600 quite often also for our 5.8Ghz installs, but I don't like to 
use it more than 50feet or so, which is about 4db of loss.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Bob Moldashel [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax



OK.Lets talk cable

1.  You can't use 1 1/4 or 1 5/8 heliax at 5 Ghz anything.  Can't use 7/8 
heliax there either.  You canbut it won't work right


2. You can use 5/8 heliax at 5.8 Ghz and below.

3. LMR900 is the largest Times cable you can use at 5.8Ghz.

4. You can use 1 1/4 Heliax at 2.4 without issue.  2.5 Ghz is the top 
limit for 1 5/8 Heliax.


5. 1 1/4 heliax and above needs REAL mounting hardware to secure it to 
the tower or structure.  This means hanger brackets, hoisting grips,  and 
ground kits made for heliax. Don't think you can tie a rope to it and pull 
it up or use tie wraps to secure it.  It won't hold more than 100 feet or 
so vertically.

6.  Heliax also means real connectors.

7. You can't lift several hundreds of feet of large heliax by hand (nor 
should you). You need a capstan/winch to do this right. 1 5/8 is about 1 
lb per foot.


8.  Connector attachment is more critical at 5 Ghz on heliax. We have seen 
connectors sweep like crap when it was thought they were installed 
correctly.


9. Do not use USED connectors. Always use new and follow the directions 
for attachment.


10. Personally I am not an LMR900 fan.  We use 5/8 heliax at this point.

11.  I am an LMR600 big fan.  We use a poopload of this cable every month.

12.  I use LMR400 for jumpers mostly

13. Losses are:

1 5/8   2.4 Ghz.   1.4dB   5Ghz.  Do Not Use
1 1/4   2.4 Ghz.1.6dB  5Ghz   Do Not Use
7/8  2.4 Ghz.2.3dB  5Ghz   Do Not Use
5/8  2.4 Ghz.2.0dB  5Ghz.   4.3 dB
1/2  2.4 Ghz 3.9db   5GHz.  6.3dB

LMR Cable loss is found on the Times web site.

14.  You can't make quick right angle turns with 1 1/4 and above.

15. Heliax is very unforgiving if you kink it or fold it in half.  If you 
fold it ya gotta cut it.


Installed properly heliax will be the better choice for low loss 
especially on long runs (200'+)


Bob
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RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Ralph
If EVERYONE is misled, then EVERYONE needs a lesson in radio- especially you
Jonny-O. My BS as you call it comes from over 30 years in 2 way and data
radio and over 10 years in RF Engineering. But before you tell folks to
leave radios on the ground, you'd better check your sources again. 

I'd love some of your $1.50 per foot 7/8 Heliax.
7/8 Heliax was  $3.00 per foot 25 YEARS AGO!
Back then, 1/2 Heliax was about $1.80  per ft.

I'm surprised that the price hasn't changed that much since then, but I'll
bet there's not as much copper in it. I know the center conductor is copper
clad aluminum now.

Maybe your $1.50 7/8 Heliax was the piece that got water in it and was
discarded by the radio shop.

For 900 MHz, 1/2 would possibly *adequate* but I would not recommend it at
all. For 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget
anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide.

Heck- even XM Radio uses elliptical waveguide at their frequency of about
2.3 GHz for their terrestrial transmitters- and they have 100 watt power
levels! I can send you a picture right now!

Putting the radios at the antennas saves vast amounts of costs in feed line.
Your tower owners are happier, and your rent might be cheaper.  I know that
we charge the other WISPs we rent space to much less because they use CAT5.

The best use of $ for RF is to use antenna gain.  You have nearly wasted
that if you long feed lines of improper sizing.

As far as justifying my statements- I don't really need to. Anyone can do
the calculations, taking feed line and connector loss and subtracting it
from antenna gain and radio power.  The procedures and the numbers are there
and speak for themselves.

Andrew makes a spiffy calculator for this purpose and it is available, free,
at http://www.andrew.com/downloads/ilcalc/default.aspx


All of the following figures include a pair of Andrew N type male 
connectors.


A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF4-50A (1/2) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
3.64 dB. That's over half of your power wasted.   List price (cable only) is
$1.56 per foot.  The connectors are $20.00 - 45.00 each depending on
material.

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF5-50A (7/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
2.1   List price (cable only) is $3.58 per foot. The connectors are $34.82
each

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF7-50A (1 5/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
1.28 dB  List price (cable only) is $9.33 per foot.  This cable is very
heavy so figure in a lot of freight as well.  The connectors are $153.22
each

Now if you would like to use a very efficient feed line, you can use EW20-25
Elliptical waveguide, which is technically the correct cable for microwave
frequencies like these.  It will cost you $33.40 per foot.  The connectors
are only about $1570.00 each, but you will have onlt  .45 dB of loss in 100
feet!


Remember that these numbers are only for 2450 MHz.  5.2 and 5.8 loss is
higher, but waveguide for that frequency is lots smaller and lighter and has
only 1.35dB loss at 5200MHz.  $23.5 per foot and only $500.00 per connector.


I'm not going to justify my statements on amplifiers either. You can (and
should) read Part 15 for yourself.  Go try to get Teletronics to give you an
FCC waiver, or go ask your AP manufacturer, assuming they are even building
certified equipment.

The problem I see with many of today's WISPs is that they are making up
their own rules to suit themselves.   Recently I saw a WISP post a
recommendation to another WISP to set up a device to intentionally interfere
with Wal-Mart's 900 MHz RFID systems. 

Nothing I say can stop or even sway any of you- that will have to come from
someone with that kind of clout.  Maybe a competitor who follows the rules
will come into your market, or maybe you'll cause a problem with something
licensed and you'll have a white Ford Explorer with a government tag and
antennas hidden in the headliner pull up at your tower- but why would it
even have to come to that.

WISPS are taking technology that was designed for in-building LANS and doing
remarkable things with it. A few years ago it was a pipe-dream to be able to
do this stuff. Now we do it with off the shelf devices and do a damn good
job.

Let's just make sure we set the good example!


(wow- I feel like Patrick)  grin






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of JohnnyO
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:32 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Importance: High

Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this.




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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Tom DeReggi

As for AMPs

If we put aside the fact that the AMP will result in a non-certified 
system Shiren (allrfcables.com) makes a real cool AMP.
Its inexpensive, and tiny. Its got an outdoor Easy to mount inline with the 
cable model. It looks like a cylinder the diam of LMR600.
I believe it comes in a 500mw and 1W model, I think.   If you are doing long 
coax tower runs at 5.8Ghz, you may want to look into that AMP.
With a slight mod, it can be used at 5.3Ghz or 5.8Ghz.  (PS. remember 5.3 
power limits, Amp only should be used to compensate for cable loss)


I did a tour of his facility last month. What I like about Shiren's stuff is 
that its all made locally by him (full cycle from the design to the testing) 
using local electronic shops, at every phase.   It allows him to maintain 
consistent Quality.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: JohnnyO [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax



Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this.

Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can
be had for $1.50/ft  What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax
? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ?

Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By
all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the
tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but
BS

Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft

2.4ghz = 2dB
900mhz = 1.1dB

Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft

5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss
2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss
900mhz = .8dB loss

You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector.

Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS
will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios
at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive
side.

You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP
!

Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable /
amp combos to go with.

The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you
weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along
the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again
!

Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING
you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely
different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule
headed post :)

JohnnyO


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure.   Stick with Heliax (r)
type
cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss
is
amazing at anything above 450 MHz.  Look at any cell tower and you will
see
what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or
many
more times that at 5.2 or 5.8  Look at a price range of tens of $ a
foot,
once installed properly.

This brings you to the next obvious issue.  Now for the lesson in RADIO.

You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure
that
your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was.
You
may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say
at
the car dealer down the street).

So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible.  Of
course
now that moves us to the next step.  Can't get a high gain antenna
because
now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or
the
pattern is too narrow.

On to the next step-  More APs so you can cover the areas that your new
high-gain antennas leave out.  Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc.

Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp.   Create noise,
Violate
Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine.

Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard
way:  Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job,
weatherproof,
lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt
for
in the first place!


Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150'
range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax?  Looking to move radios to
the bottom of towers.

--
Scott Reed
Owner
NewWays
Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
www.nwwnet.net

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RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread JohnnyO
Ralph - for someone who has 30yrs of Experience in RF and 10yrs of RF
Engineering you sure don't know much do you other then how to toot your
own horn?

Please give us ALL a lesson in radio

Please give me the calculations of 150ft of LDF4-50A using a 250mw
amplifier with a 17db RX gain.. and then compare this to a 250mw
radio at the top of a tower (which by the way will exceed EIRP limits if
going into an Omni)

Your original posts to the group were and are misleading by saying that
using heliax or LMR600 to go up to an antenna is the wrong way to do
things. Therefore I call it B *cough cough* S

JohnnyO




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:47 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

If EVERYONE is misled, then EVERYONE needs a lesson in radio- especially
you
Jonny-O. My BS as you call it comes from over 30 years in 2 way and
data
radio and over 10 years in RF Engineering. But before you tell folks to
leave radios on the ground, you'd better check your sources again. 

I'd love some of your $1.50 per foot 7/8 Heliax.
7/8 Heliax was  $3.00 per foot 25 YEARS AGO!
Back then, 1/2 Heliax was about $1.80  per ft.

I'm surprised that the price hasn't changed that much since then, but
I'll
bet there's not as much copper in it. I know the center conductor is
copper
clad aluminum now.

Maybe your $1.50 7/8 Heliax was the piece that got water in it and was
discarded by the radio shop.

For 900 MHz, 1/2 would possibly *adequate* but I would not recommend it
at
all. For 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget
anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide.

Heck- even XM Radio uses elliptical waveguide at their frequency of
about
2.3 GHz for their terrestrial transmitters- and they have 100 watt power
levels! I can send you a picture right now!

Putting the radios at the antennas saves vast amounts of costs in feed
line.
Your tower owners are happier, and your rent might be cheaper.  I know
that
we charge the other WISPs we rent space to much less because they use
CAT5.

The best use of $ for RF is to use antenna gain.  You have nearly wasted
that if you long feed lines of improper sizing.

As far as justifying my statements- I don't really need to. Anyone can
do
the calculations, taking feed line and connector loss and subtracting it
from antenna gain and radio power.  The procedures and the numbers are
there
and speak for themselves.

Andrew makes a spiffy calculator for this purpose and it is available,
free,
at http://www.andrew.com/downloads/ilcalc/default.aspx


All of the following figures include a pair of Andrew N type male 
connectors.


A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF4-50A (1/2) at 2450 MHz has a loss
of
3.64 dB. That's over half of your power wasted.   List price (cable
only) is
$1.56 per foot.  The connectors are $20.00 - 45.00 each depending on
material.

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF5-50A (7/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss
of
2.1   List price (cable only) is $3.58 per foot. The connectors are
$34.82
each

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF7-50A (1 5/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss
of
1.28 dB  List price (cable only) is $9.33 per foot.  This cable is very
heavy so figure in a lot of freight as well.  The connectors are $153.22
each

Now if you would like to use a very efficient feed line, you can use
EW20-25
Elliptical waveguide, which is technically the correct cable for
microwave
frequencies like these.  It will cost you $33.40 per foot.  The
connectors
are only about $1570.00 each, but you will have onlt  .45 dB of loss in
100
feet!


Remember that these numbers are only for 2450 MHz.  5.2 and 5.8 loss is
higher, but waveguide for that frequency is lots smaller and lighter and
has
only 1.35dB loss at 5200MHz.  $23.5 per foot and only $500.00 per
connector.


I'm not going to justify my statements on amplifiers either. You can
(and
should) read Part 15 for yourself.  Go try to get Teletronics to give
you an
FCC waiver, or go ask your AP manufacturer, assuming they are even
building
certified equipment.

The problem I see with many of today's WISPs is that they are making up
their own rules to suit themselves.   Recently I saw a WISP post a
recommendation to another WISP to set up a device to intentionally
interfere
with Wal-Mart's 900 MHz RFID systems. 

Nothing I say can stop or even sway any of you- that will have to come
from
someone with that kind of clout.  Maybe a competitor who follows the
rules
will come into your market, or maybe you'll cause a problem with
something
licensed and you'll have a white Ford Explorer with a government tag and
antennas hidden in the headliner pull up at your tower- but why would it
even have to come to that.

WISPS are taking technology that was designed for in-building LANS and
doing
remarkable things with it. A few years ago it was a pipe-dream to be
able to
do this stuff. Now we do it 

RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread JohnnyO
In an earlier post - Ralph stated 1 cubic yard of cement
60 ft high.   1 vertical antenna
No guys. Even stronger with a house bracket.
I've put up many like this.

This is the same guy that is wanting to give us radio lessons I
certainly wouldn't hire him for any tower installs, due to the fact that
he is doing unsafe construction methods on towers...

Regards,

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:47 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

If EVERYONE is misled, then EVERYONE needs a lesson in radio- especially
you
Jonny-O. My BS as you call it comes from over 30 years in 2 way and
data
radio and over 10 years in RF Engineering. But before you tell folks to
leave radios on the ground, you'd better check your sources again. 

I'd love some of your $1.50 per foot 7/8 Heliax.
7/8 Heliax was  $3.00 per foot 25 YEARS AGO!
Back then, 1/2 Heliax was about $1.80  per ft.

I'm surprised that the price hasn't changed that much since then, but
I'll
bet there's not as much copper in it. I know the center conductor is
copper
clad aluminum now.

Maybe your $1.50 7/8 Heliax was the piece that got water in it and was
discarded by the radio shop.

For 900 MHz, 1/2 would possibly *adequate* but I would not recommend it
at
all. For 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget
anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide.

Heck- even XM Radio uses elliptical waveguide at their frequency of
about
2.3 GHz for their terrestrial transmitters- and they have 100 watt power
levels! I can send you a picture right now!

Putting the radios at the antennas saves vast amounts of costs in feed
line.
Your tower owners are happier, and your rent might be cheaper.  I know
that
we charge the other WISPs we rent space to much less because they use
CAT5.

The best use of $ for RF is to use antenna gain.  You have nearly wasted
that if you long feed lines of improper sizing.

As far as justifying my statements- I don't really need to. Anyone can
do
the calculations, taking feed line and connector loss and subtracting it
from antenna gain and radio power.  The procedures and the numbers are
there
and speak for themselves.

Andrew makes a spiffy calculator for this purpose and it is available,
free,
at http://www.andrew.com/downloads/ilcalc/default.aspx


All of the following figures include a pair of Andrew N type male 
connectors.


A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF4-50A (1/2) at 2450 MHz has a loss
of
3.64 dB. That's over half of your power wasted.   List price (cable
only) is
$1.56 per foot.  The connectors are $20.00 - 45.00 each depending on
material.

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF5-50A (7/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss
of
2.1   List price (cable only) is $3.58 per foot. The connectors are
$34.82
each

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF7-50A (1 5/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss
of
1.28 dB  List price (cable only) is $9.33 per foot.  This cable is very
heavy so figure in a lot of freight as well.  The connectors are $153.22
each

Now if you would like to use a very efficient feed line, you can use
EW20-25
Elliptical waveguide, which is technically the correct cable for
microwave
frequencies like these.  It will cost you $33.40 per foot.  The
connectors
are only about $1570.00 each, but you will have onlt  .45 dB of loss in
100
feet!


Remember that these numbers are only for 2450 MHz.  5.2 and 5.8 loss is
higher, but waveguide for that frequency is lots smaller and lighter and
has
only 1.35dB loss at 5200MHz.  $23.5 per foot and only $500.00 per
connector.


I'm not going to justify my statements on amplifiers either. You can
(and
should) read Part 15 for yourself.  Go try to get Teletronics to give
you an
FCC waiver, or go ask your AP manufacturer, assuming they are even
building
certified equipment.

The problem I see with many of today's WISPs is that they are making up
their own rules to suit themselves.   Recently I saw a WISP post a
recommendation to another WISP to set up a device to intentionally
interfere
with Wal-Mart's 900 MHz RFID systems. 

Nothing I say can stop or even sway any of you- that will have to come
from
someone with that kind of clout.  Maybe a competitor who follows the
rules
will come into your market, or maybe you'll cause a problem with
something
licensed and you'll have a white Ford Explorer with a government tag and
antennas hidden in the headliner pull up at your tower- but why would it
even have to come to that.

WISPS are taking technology that was designed for in-building LANS and
doing
remarkable things with it. A few years ago it was a pipe-dream to be
able to
do this stuff. Now we do it with off the shelf devices and do a damn
good
job.

Let's just make sure we set the good example!


(wow- I feel like Patrick)  grin






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of JohnnyO
Sent: Saturday, 

Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

Not all amps are illegal guys.  Sheesh.

Yes they have to be included in the system certification and can't be mix 
and matched like antennas.


But that doesn't make them illegal!
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax



As for AMPs

If we put aside the fact that the AMP will result in a non-certified 
system Shiren (allrfcables.com) makes a real cool AMP.
Its inexpensive, and tiny. Its got an outdoor Easy to mount inline with 
the cable model. It looks like a cylinder the diam of LMR600.
I believe it comes in a 500mw and 1W model, I think.   If you are doing 
long coax tower runs at 5.8Ghz, you may want to look into that AMP.
With a slight mod, it can be used at 5.3Ghz or 5.8Ghz.  (PS. remember 5.3 
power limits, Amp only should be used to compensate for cable loss)


I did a tour of his facility last month. What I like about Shiren's stuff 
is that its all made locally by him (full cycle from the design to the 
testing) using local electronic shops, at every phase.   It allows him to 
maintain consistent Quality.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: JohnnyO [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax



Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this.

Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can
be had for $1.50/ft  What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax
? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ?

Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By
all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the
tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but
BS

Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft

2.4ghz = 2dB
900mhz = 1.1dB

Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft

5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss
2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss
900mhz = .8dB loss

You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector.

Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS
will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios
at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive
side.

You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP
!

Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable /
amp combos to go with.

The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you
weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along
the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again
!

Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING
you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely
different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule
headed post :)

JohnnyO


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure.   Stick with Heliax (r)
type
cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss
is
amazing at anything above 450 MHz.  Look at any cell tower and you will
see
what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or
many
more times that at 5.2 or 5.8  Look at a price range of tens of $ a
foot,
once installed properly.

This brings you to the next obvious issue.  Now for the lesson in RADIO.

You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure
that
your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was.
You
may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say
at
the car dealer down the street).

So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible.  Of
course
now that moves us to the next step.  Can't get a high gain antenna
because
now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or
the
pattern is too narrow.

On to the next step-  More APs so you can cover the areas that your new
high-gain antennas leave out.  Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc.

Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp.   Create noise,
Violate
Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine.

Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard
way:  Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job,
weatherproof,
lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt
for
in the first place!


Ralph

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 

Re: [WISPA] Youtube

2007-03-17 Thread David E. Smith

George Rogato wrote:

Can youtube be cached?

Theoretically, it probably could. There are sites like keepvid.com where 
you can enter the URL of a video on YouTube (or Google Video, or a bunch 
of others), they dig through the HTML and the embedded Flash goo, and 
give you a link to download the .flv file. (Then you can go download a 
specialized FLV player, and watch your YouTube clips at your 
convenience.) Ultimately, it's just another file you download from a Web 
server; YouTube's Flash player is just smart enough to start playing the 
file before it's completely downloaded.


Of course, those .flv files are about 2MB per minute of video, give or 
take a bit. If you're using something like Squid, or the implementation 
of Squid built into Mikrotik RouterOS, files that large probably aren't 
cached by default, mostly because for smaller sites the odds of multiple 
users downloading the same really big file at the same time are usually 
fairly small.


David Smith
MVN.net
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RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Ralph
100% Correct, Marlon. It doesn't make the amp illegal- just using it on Part
15 stuff that it isn't certified for.  

I don't know first hand that this is so, but I believe it was on this list a
couple of years ago that one of the Tranzeo products had an RFLinx Amplifier
inside.  If so, I'd be willing to bet that it was also properly certified
within the system, so you are correct.

Many of the amps I have seen are very nicely designed, AGC, POE,
Programmable, Nice boxes and nicely priced.  If I were outside the US I
might even use them in the WISP, after verifying that they were spectrally
pure.

I have used some of the RFLinx amps for Ham projects and Amateur Television
and I was impressed with their value about 4 years ago when everything else
(YDI-HyperLink) were so expensive.

I'm ignoring Johnny's trolls now from now on because name-calling and the
other bashing he has resorted to is just downright immature.  I'll just go
back to following FCC rules and hanging off my Rohn-Spec designed 60 ft free
stander.

Ralph


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

Not all amps are illegal guys.  Sheesh.

Yes they have to be included in the system certification and can't be mix 
and matched like antennas.

But that doesn't make them illegal!
marlon

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[WISPA] 900 Filter Question

2007-03-17 Thread Ralph
Out of all the filters out there that you folks have seen, which ones do you
like and why?  Do you have their specs and prices?

Can you cite an example of a particular interference a given filter has
solved *for you*?

This is for a 900 Canopy system.

 

Thanks

 

Ralph

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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread RickG

Gents! If someone makes a post that has incorrect information, please
correct them! BUT, you loose credibility when you begin personal
attacks and everyone on this list looses! We are adults here - and
adults should be able to have civilized discussion without resorting
to name calling. Debate someone but dont degrade someone! STICK TO THE
FACTS OF THE SUBJECT!
My .02...Thanks!
-RickG

On 3/17/07, Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

100% Correct, Marlon. It doesn't make the amp illegal- just using it on Part
15 stuff that it isn't certified for.

I don't know first hand that this is so, but I believe it was on this list a
couple of years ago that one of the Tranzeo products had an RFLinx Amplifier
inside.  If so, I'd be willing to bet that it was also properly certified
within the system, so you are correct.

Many of the amps I have seen are very nicely designed, AGC, POE,
Programmable, Nice boxes and nicely priced.  If I were outside the US I
might even use them in the WISP, after verifying that they were spectrally
pure.

I have used some of the RFLinx amps for Ham projects and Amateur Television
and I was impressed with their value about 4 years ago when everything else
(YDI-HyperLink) were so expensive.

I'm ignoring Johnny's trolls now from now on because name-calling and the
other bashing he has resorted to is just downright immature.  I'll just go
back to following FCC rules and hanging off my Rohn-Spec designed 60 ft free
stander.

Ralph


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

Not all amps are illegal guys.  Sheesh.

Yes they have to be included in the system certification and can't be mix
and matched like antennas.

But that doesn't make them illegal!
marlon

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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Bob Moldashel

Inline



Ralph wrote:


If EVERYONE is misled, then EVERYONE needs a lesson in radio- especially you
Jonny-O. My BS as you call it comes from over 30 years in 2 way and data
radio and over 10 years in RF Engineering. But before you tell folks to
leave radios on the ground, you'd better check your sources again. 


I'd love some of your $1.50 per foot 7/8 Heliax.
7/8 Heliax was  $3.00 per foot 25 YEARS AGO!
Back then, 1/2 Heliax was about $1.80  per ft.
 



There is a ton of this on the market.  We are presently buying 7/8 x 
1000' rolls from many other cell site construction companies at about $1 
foot.  I presently have a source for 6K feet and I am sure I could find 
a poop load more in 48 hours.




I'm surprised that the price hasn't changed that much since then, but I'll
bet there's not as much copper in it. I know the center conductor is copper
clad aluminum now.

Maybe your $1.50 7/8 Heliax was the piece that got water in it and was
discarded by the radio shop.

 


See above..



For 900 MHz, 1/2 would possibly *adequate* but I would not recommend it at
all. For 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget
anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide.
 



Please research your statement.  You cannot use 1 5/8 Heliax for 5Ghz 
anything.



Heck- even XM Radio uses elliptical waveguide at their frequency of about
2.3 GHz for their terrestrial transmitters- and they have 100 watt power
levels! I can send you a picture right now!

Putting the radios at the antennas saves vast amounts of costs in feed line.
Your tower owners are happier, and your rent might be cheaper.  I know that
we charge the other WISPs we rent space to much less because they use CAT5.

The best use of $ for RF is to use antenna gain.  You have nearly wasted
that if you long feed lines of improper sizing.

As far as justifying my statements- I don't really need to. Anyone can do
the calculations, taking feed line and connector loss and subtracting it
from antenna gain and radio power.  The procedures and the numbers are there
and speak for themselves.

Andrew makes a spiffy calculator for this purpose and it is available, free,
at http://www.andrew.com/downloads/ilcalc/default.aspx


All of the following figures include a pair of Andrew N type male 
connectors.



A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF4-50A (1/2) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
3.64 dB. That's over half of your power wasted.   List price (cable only) is
$1.56 per foot.  The connectors are $20.00 - 45.00 each depending on
material.

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF5-50A (7/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
2.1   List price (cable only) is $3.58 per foot. The connectors are $34.82
each

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF7-50A (1 5/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
1.28 dB  List price (cable only) is $9.33 per foot.  This cable is very
heavy so figure in a lot of freight as well.  The connectors are $153.22
each

Now if you would like to use a very efficient feed line, you can use EW20-25
Elliptical waveguide, which is technically the correct cable for microwave
frequencies like these.  It will cost you $33.40 per foot.  The connectors
are only about $1570.00 each, but you will have onlt  .45 dB of loss in 100
feet!


Remember that these numbers are only for 2450 MHz.  5.2 and 5.8 loss is
higher, but waveguide for that frequency is lots smaller and lighter and has
only 1.35dB loss at 5200MHz.  $23.5 per foot and only $500.00 per connector.


I'm not going to justify my statements on amplifiers either. You can (and
should) read Part 15 for yourself.  Go try to get Teletronics to give you an
FCC waiver, or go ask your AP manufacturer, assuming they are even building
certified equipment.
 



An amplifier manufacturer cannot grant an FCC waiver for anything.  
And the AP manufacturer must submit the combination to the Part 15 cert 
lab for combined package certification as a system...  I know that is 
the case because this was discussed with Commission representatives 
directly when we were in Washington a couple of years ago.  I think 
marlon still has the pictures Right Marlon   :-)



The problem I see with many of today's WISPs is that they are making up
their own rules to suit themselves.   Recently I saw a WISP post a
recommendation to another WISP to set up a device to intentionally interfere
with Wal-Mart's 900 MHz RFID systems. 
 



Frustration will make people say things that at times they either don't 
mean, wish they could take back or trying to get a laugh



Nothing I say can stop or even sway any of you- that will have to come from
someone with that kind of clout.  Maybe a competitor who follows the rules
will come into your market, or maybe you'll cause a problem with something
licensed and you'll have a white Ford Explorer with a government tag and
antennas hidden in the headliner pull up at your tower- but why would it
even have to come to that.
 



Wow.Every guy I ever dealt with from the 

Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread RickG

Bob,

Great example of debating someone versus degrading someone!

Thanks!
RickG

On 3/17/07, Bob Moldashel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Inline



Ralph wrote:

If EVERYONE is misled, then EVERYONE needs a lesson in radio- especially you
Jonny-O. My BS as you call it comes from over 30 years in 2 way and data
radio and over 10 years in RF Engineering. But before you tell folks to
leave radios on the ground, you'd better check your sources again.

I'd love some of your $1.50 per foot 7/8 Heliax.
7/8 Heliax was  $3.00 per foot 25 YEARS AGO!
Back then, 1/2 Heliax was about $1.80  per ft.



There is a ton of this on the market.  We are presently buying 7/8 x
1000' rolls from many other cell site construction companies at about $1
foot.  I presently have a source for 6K feet and I am sure I could find
a poop load more in 48 hours.


I'm surprised that the price hasn't changed that much since then, but I'll
bet there's not as much copper in it. I know the center conductor is copper
clad aluminum now.

Maybe your $1.50 7/8 Heliax was the piece that got water in it and was
discarded by the radio shop.



See above..


For 900 MHz, 1/2 would possibly *adequate* but I would not recommend it at
all. For 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget
anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide.



Please research your statement.  You cannot use 1 5/8 Heliax for 5Ghz
anything.

Heck- even XM Radio uses elliptical waveguide at their frequency of about
2.3 GHz for their terrestrial transmitters- and they have 100 watt power
levels! I can send you a picture right now!

Putting the radios at the antennas saves vast amounts of costs in feed line.
Your tower owners are happier, and your rent might be cheaper.  I know that
we charge the other WISPs we rent space to much less because they use CAT5.

The best use of $ for RF is to use antenna gain.  You have nearly wasted
that if you long feed lines of improper sizing.

As far as justifying my statements- I don't really need to. Anyone can do
the calculations, taking feed line and connector loss and subtracting it
from antenna gain and radio power.  The procedures and the numbers are there
and speak for themselves.

Andrew makes a spiffy calculator for this purpose and it is available, free,
at http://www.andrew.com/downloads/ilcalc/default.aspx


All of the following figures include a pair of Andrew N type male
connectors.


A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF4-50A (1/2) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
3.64 dB. That's over half of your power wasted.   List price (cable only) is
$1.56 per foot.  The connectors are $20.00 - 45.00 each depending on
material.

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF5-50A (7/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
2.1   List price (cable only) is $3.58 per foot. The connectors are $34.82
each

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF7-50A (1 5/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
1.28 dB  List price (cable only) is $9.33 per foot.  This cable is very
heavy so figure in a lot of freight as well.  The connectors are $153.22
each

Now if you would like to use a very efficient feed line, you can use EW20-25
Elliptical waveguide, which is technically the correct cable for microwave
frequencies like these.  It will cost you $33.40 per foot.  The connectors
are only about $1570.00 each, but you will have onlt  .45 dB of loss in 100
feet!


Remember that these numbers are only for 2450 MHz.  5.2 and 5.8 loss is
higher, but waveguide for that frequency is lots smaller and lighter and has
only 1.35dB loss at 5200MHz.  $23.5 per foot and only $500.00 per connector.


I'm not going to justify my statements on amplifiers either. You can (and
should) read Part 15 for yourself.  Go try to get Teletronics to give you an
FCC waiver, or go ask your AP manufacturer, assuming they are even building
certified equipment.



An amplifier manufacturer cannot grant an FCC waiver for anything.
And the AP manufacturer must submit the combination to the Part 15 cert
lab for combined package certification as a system...  I know that is
the case because this was discussed with Commission representatives
directly when we were in Washington a couple of years ago.  I think
marlon still has the pictures Right Marlon   :-)

The problem I see with many of today's WISPs is that they are making up
their own rules to suit themselves.   Recently I saw a WISP post a
recommendation to another WISP to set up a device to intentionally interfere
with Wal-Mart's 900 MHz RFID systems.



Frustration will make people say things that at times they either don't
mean, wish they could take back or trying to get a laugh

Nothing I say can stop or even sway any of you- that will have to come from
someone with that kind of clout.  Maybe a competitor who follows the rules
will come into your market, or maybe you'll cause a problem with something
licensed and you'll have a white Ford Explorer with a government tag and
antennas hidden in the headliner pull up at your tower- 

[WISPA] Looking for Jeff Booher aka Jeffrey Thomas

2007-03-17 Thread Kelly Turner
Does anyone have current contact information for Jeff
Booher?  The number I have has been disconnected. 
Thanks!

Kelly Turner


 

Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

I've tried to stay out of this but I can't.  grin

I was in the meeting with Bob.  He's right.

As for how much cable loss is ok, that's a per link issue.  You have to run 
your link budgets.


It might be BETTER to have 12dB of coax loss in certain situations.  Hell, 
I've paid money to drop dB from a link budget (attenuators).


If it weren't for the new kids on this block these threads where people try 
to toss out absolutes all of the time would be funny!


I have around 25 towers up now or very nearly up.  No two are alike.  Each 
customer base is different.  The ranges needed from each system are 
different.  It's all about the local rf environment and the link budgets 
needed.


Ralph, so far most of what I see you suggestion would end up breaking the 
bank of the people here.  In fact most everyone in the broadband industry.


Robert Pepper, formerly of the fcc, had a number once.  Wish I could 
remember it.  These aren't exact but it's very close.  The ISP gets about 
$.25 per megabit delivered.  Or some other such measurement, can't remember 
the specifics.  I do remember that the isp gets $.25 and the cell companies 
get $20 for the same amount of data transferred.  No that wasn't a typo. 
That's why I remember the numbers, it was shocking.


If I GROSS $1000 per month from some of my towers I'm happy.  Can't put in 
$10,000 worth of crap and ever get my money out.


laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Bob Moldashel [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax



Inline



Ralph wrote:

If EVERYONE is misled, then EVERYONE needs a lesson in radio- especially 
you

Jonny-O. My BS as you call it comes from over 30 years in 2 way and data
radio and over 10 years in RF Engineering. But before you tell folks to
leave radios on the ground, you'd better check your sources again.
I'd love some of your $1.50 per foot 7/8 Heliax.
7/8 Heliax was  $3.00 per foot 25 YEARS AGO!
Back then, 1/2 Heliax was about $1.80  per ft.



There is a ton of this on the market.  We are presently buying 7/8 x 
1000' rolls from many other cell site construction companies at about $1 
foot.  I presently have a source for 6K feet and I am sure I could find a 
poop load more in 48 hours.




I'm surprised that the price hasn't changed that much since then, but I'll
bet there's not as much copper in it. I know the center conductor is 
copper

clad aluminum now.

Maybe your $1.50 7/8 Heliax was the piece that got water in it and was
discarded by the radio shop.



See above..


For 900 MHz, 1/2 would possibly *adequate* but I would not recommend it 
at

all. For 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget
anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide.



Please research your statement.  You cannot use 1 5/8 Heliax for 5Ghz 
anything.



Heck- even XM Radio uses elliptical waveguide at their frequency of about
2.3 GHz for their terrestrial transmitters- and they have 100 watt power
levels! I can send you a picture right now!

Putting the radios at the antennas saves vast amounts of costs in feed 
line.
Your tower owners are happier, and your rent might be cheaper.  I know 
that
we charge the other WISPs we rent space to much less because they use 
CAT5.


The best use of $ for RF is to use antenna gain.  You have nearly wasted
that if you long feed lines of improper sizing.

As far as justifying my statements- I don't really need to. Anyone can do
the calculations, taking feed line and connector loss and subtracting it
from antenna gain and radio power.  The procedures and the numbers are 
there

and speak for themselves.

Andrew makes a spiffy calculator for this purpose and it is available, 
free,

at http://www.andrew.com/downloads/ilcalc/default.aspx


All of the following figures include a pair of Andrew N type male 
connectors.



A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF4-50A (1/2) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
3.64 dB. That's over half of your power wasted.   List price (cable only) 
is

$1.56 per foot.  The connectors are $20.00 - 45.00 each depending on
material.

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF5-50A (7/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of
2.1   List price (cable only) is $3.58 per foot. The connectors are $34.82
each

A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF7-50A (1 5/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss 
of

1.28 dB  List price (cable only) is $9.33 per foot.  This cable is very
heavy so figure in a lot of freight as well.  The connectors are $153.22
each

Now if you would like to use a very efficient feed line, you can use 
EW20-25

Elliptical waveguide, which is technically the correct cable for microwave
frequencies like these.  It will cost you $33.40 per foot.  The connectors
are only about $1570.00 each, but you will have onlt  .45 dB of loss in 
100

feet!


Remember that these numbers are only for 2450 MHz.  5.2 and 5.8 loss is
higher, but waveguide for that frequency is lots 

RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Eric Albert
Dear list,

I have not seen anyone comment on the principle of coax cutoff frequency
and how it can impact the decision to use one size of cable over
another. Some of our customers have run into this problem. The problem
of not being able to install the tower electronics right next to the
intentional radiator. It is not our preferred installation method but it
does happen. 

The Cutoff Frequency of the coax is an equally important consideration
in addition to loss and physical characteristics. The outer diameter of
a coax cable is (roughly) inversely proportional to the cutoff
frequency. If the physical 1/2 wavelength of the carrier is SMALLER than
the diameter of the coax then problems will ensue. When the size of the
coax is large enough that more than one RF path exists, the frequency is
above cutoff frequency, and cable attenuation is very high, and return
loss is very high.  

If multiple modes with different phase velocities propagate within a
span of coax, interference can occur within the medium itself.  In RF
cable, the best operation occurs when only one path for the RF exists. 

Eric Albert
Application Engineer
Alvarion, Inc.


 
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:56 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

What about 5 gig
Are you doing long runs and amps at 5gig?


Blair Davis wrote:
 We use both methods, depending on how hard the location is to
climb
 
 For locations that are easy to climb, we put the radio at the top.  
 We've made our radios easy to feild swap on the tower. Four nuts, one 
 N-connector and an outdoor cat5.  This swaps everything except the 
 antenna and coax.  Static protection, grounding, electronics all swap 
 out as a unit.
 
 For locations that are hard to climb, I use radio at bottom, amp and 
 antenna at top.  Started out using HyperLink amps, now use RF Linx.  
 Over 7 years, I've had 2 amps fail, and 1 antenna and amp destroyed by
a 
 direct strike.  In the direct strike, the amp saved the coax down the 
 tower and all the radio gear below...
 
 And RF Linx replaced the amp under warranty.
 
 There is room for both methods and a wise engineer picks the
appropriate 
 one for the location.
 
 JohnnyO wrote:
 Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading
this.

 Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which
can
 be had for $1.50/ft  What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch
heliax
 ? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ?

 Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By
 all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of
the
 tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but
 BS

 Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft

 2.4ghz = 2dB
 900mhz = 1.1dB

 Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft
 5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss
 2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss
 900mhz = .8dB loss

 You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector.

 Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics
AMPS
 will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your
radios
 at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive
 side.

 You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper
AMP
 !
 Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable
/
 amp combos to go with.

 The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you
 weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps
along
 the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower
again
 !
 Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING
 you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is
completely
 different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule
 headed post :)

 JohnnyO


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Ralph
 Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

 You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure.   Stick with Heliax (r)
 type
 cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The
loss
 is
 amazing at anything above 450 MHz.  Look at any cell tower and you
will
 see
 what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or
 many
 more times that at 5.2 or 5.8  Look at a price range of tens of $ a
 foot,
 once installed properly.

 This brings you to the next obvious issue.  Now for the lesson in
RADIO.

 You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure
 that
 your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was.
 You
 may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they
say
 at
 the car dealer down the street).

 So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible.  Of
 course
 now that moves us to the next step.  Can't get a high gain antenna

RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Ralph
Sorry I am not quoting inline- it was getting a bit cluttered.

Good points, Bob.

The brand new cell tower surplus isn't that readily available here.  Oh I
see it... cut into 20 ft lengths at the recycling place.  Saw some
elliptical waveguide there last week. Made me sick, but I couldn't have
afforded the connectors.

The 7/8 comes in handy when putting up a VHF or UHF commercial repeater,
though. And I forgot... a cell company did give me a leftover spool end a
couple of years ago.  It had enough runs in it to go up 3 of my 100 ft
towers.  They don't have guys either, but they do have a lot more than 1
yard of concrete and they have another way that they are held up. See if you
can guess what that is. (Matt Liotta is disqualified. He has seen them).

Regarding the 5.8, my statement said: 
2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget anything less
then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide.  You're right about the
cutoff frequency. I misread the chart where it said the cutoff was 8.8 GHz.
That was a 7/8 size.  I had set the program to show me both Heliax and
waveguide and there were just too many rows of data.  However, I actually
recommended waveguide.   

A friend of mine took pictures of the XM installation at one of our sites.
You can see a bit of the black  waveguide and all of one of the connectors
at:  http://www.jawga.com/xm/xmwaveguide.jpg
Their cabinet is at: 
http://www.jawga.com/xm/xmrack.jpg

I never meant to imply that anyone could issue a waiver- especially any
manufacturer. I was saying that in a rots o ruck type fashion.


Yes, the vehicle I have seen locally is an Explorer (or similar SUV). The
former vehicle was a ragged out old station wagon that reminded me of an
Olds Vista Cruiser. 

As Marlon said- my ideal solutions would probably break the bank for any
WISP (except maybe Clearwire) but I was merely arguing for leaving the
radios on the tower for the absolute best efficiency.

Ralph

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Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

2007-03-17 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
I thought that there was some formula like that out there.  Thanks for 
posting it!!

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Eric Albert [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax


Dear list,

I have not seen anyone comment on the principle of coax cutoff frequency
and how it can impact the decision to use one size of cable over
another. Some of our customers have run into this problem. The problem
of not being able to install the tower electronics right next to the
intentional radiator. It is not our preferred installation method but it
does happen.

The Cutoff Frequency of the coax is an equally important consideration
in addition to loss and physical characteristics. The outer diameter of
a coax cable is (roughly) inversely proportional to the cutoff
frequency. If the physical 1/2 wavelength of the carrier is SMALLER than
the diameter of the coax then problems will ensue. When the size of the
coax is large enough that more than one RF path exists, the frequency is
above cutoff frequency, and cable attenuation is very high, and return
loss is very high.

If multiple modes with different phase velocities propagate within a
span of coax, interference can occur within the medium itself.  In RF
cable, the best operation occurs when only one path for the RF exists.

Eric Albert
Application Engineer
Alvarion, Inc.





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:56 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

What about 5 gig
Are you doing long runs and amps at 5gig?


Blair Davis wrote:

We use both methods, depending on how hard the location is to

climb


For locations that are easy to climb, we put the radio at the top.
We've made our radios easy to feild swap on the tower. Four nuts, one
N-connector and an outdoor cat5.  This swaps everything except the
antenna and coax.  Static protection, grounding, electronics all swap
out as a unit.

For locations that are hard to climb, I use radio at bottom, amp and
antenna at top.  Started out using HyperLink amps, now use RF Linx.
Over 7 years, I've had 2 amps fail, and 1 antenna and amp destroyed by

a

direct strike.  In the direct strike, the amp saved the coax down the
tower and all the radio gear below...

And RF Linx replaced the amp under warranty.

There is room for both methods and a wise engineer picks the

appropriate

one for the location.

JohnnyO wrote:

Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading

this.


Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which

can

be had for $1.50/ft  What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch

heliax

? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ?

Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By
all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of

the

tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but
BS

Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft

2.4ghz = 2dB
900mhz = 1.1dB

Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft
5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss
2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss
900mhz = .8dB loss

You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector.

Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics

AMPS

will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your

radios

at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive
side.

You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper

AMP

!
Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable

/

amp combos to go with.

The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you
weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps

along

the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower

again

!
Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING
you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is

completely

different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule
headed post :)

JohnnyO


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On

Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax

You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure.   Stick with Heliax (r)
type
cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The

loss

is
amazing at anything above 450 MHz.  Look at any cell tower and you

will

see
what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or
many
more times that at 5.2 or 5.8  Look at a price range of tens of $ a
foot,
once installed properly.

This brings you to the next obvious issue.  Now for the lesson in

RADIO.


You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure
that
your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was.
You
may even totally offset