Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Those prices don't make me happy either. I have not heard an official anything yet from the wispa calea group. I don't believe they are done with their activities. It would be good to hear what they have to say concerning methods of compliance and costs. I read a doc that said a 15k isp could be 150k it also said it knew some isps had meager budgets and they said they will deal with that. I would assume they were not going to bankrupt a small isp. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Vudu Casts Its Spell on Hollywood
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gizmodo-exclusive/exclusive-pics-of-the-vudu-+-video-store-in-a-box-256044.php http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/business/yourmoney/29vudu.html?ref=technology The system, according to interviews and those patent applications, will operate like a traditional peer-to-peer service, but without any active participation by users. Vudu boxes that already have a certain movie on their hard drives — say, “The Godfather” — will send pieces of that movie to a nearby box when its owner suddenly gets a taste for the epic Mafia drama. But to get those movies playing quickly, the Vudu engineers struck upon another notion: using a slice of the digital real estate on each Vudu box to store the beginning portions of each film. They also delved into the science of predictions. When the company determines that a movie is more likely to be rented or purchased — early in its release, for example — it will plant lengthier pieces of that film on unused portions of Vudu boxes in customer homes. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
actually the prices are the least of my worry regarding calea. i am more worried about some untrusted device on my network. assuming i would have to give root on the at least tap device to the trusted third party. i've been told by some TTPs i would need to provide credentials for every device on my network. imo this a recipe for disaster. if that is the case what is keeping someone at the calea provider from using my subscriber's traffic for their own personal gain? who guarantees the integrity of the TTP? what if they get caught doing the above, who is liable? i imagine we are. at a national level it seems silly to entrust random entities with national security issues. is there any sort of certification for these companies? on the international level, if there is no certification process to test the ability to become a calea provider, what is stopping some rogue nation from creating a TTP infrastructure to spy with? Ed On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 01:02:25 -0700 George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those prices don't make me happy either. I have not heard an official anything yet from the wispa calea group. I don't believe they are done with their activities. It would be good to hear what they have to say concerning methods of compliance and costs. I read a doc that said a 15k isp could be 150k it also said it knew some isps had meager budgets and they said they will deal with that. I would assume they were not going to bankrupt a small isp. -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other than the lease on that building, I've never walked away from a single bill. Even when many I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business with. 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with 30,000 or 300,000 subs. THAT's where *I* want to be. Actually, I want that $10,000,000 cash payment for my company. grin. Look again, at the original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that used to exist. Or the ones that had the cable companies etc. Why were those sales so valuable? I believe because of cooperation and standardization. Make it as cheap and easy to take over your operations as it can be. BTW, 1% per year in growth? Plus a 10% drop in costs? That's nice. Our gross sales have increased by 15 to 16% per year for the last three years. We're still not advertising either. And this year, so far, we're running 96% ahead of last years growth. I may be in a very small market, but I'm a damned good operator! laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Well, I seem to be holding my own ground pretty well... and I DON'T turn customers over to my competition... over 65 towers in operation, over 3,000 wireless subs, hundreds of DSL subs, almost 50 fiber subs (banks, hospitals, insurance, etc.)... and NO outside investors, stock holders, or any long-term debt whatsoever. :) (OT: Our annual gross revenue has been within 1% of the previous year for the past 4 years. However, I have managed to decrease our expenses by 10% every year. While this doesn't seem like a lot, realize we are a multi-million dollar company. There is EASY money to be made by just cutting expenses. Things like shopping around for better CC rates, better insurance rates, cheaper bandwidth, etc.) Also, if you leased your equipment, you could put the new tower up for less than $200 per month for EVERYTHING. ;) rant Call it what you will Marlon, but I believe you started your wireless operation around 1997 (going off your website). In 1997 we started our wireless service as well. Today we have over 3,000 connected wireless subs and are growing at over 100 per month. We have been profitable since our first year in business. This will be _another_ record breaking year for us. We have a backbone uptime of 99.99% over the last 2 years (including scheduled maintenance). Our wireless subs see a 99.9% uptime (including maintenance, interferance issues, blown AP's, etc). We deliver over 150Mbps of internet traffic during business hours using three diverse providers (DS3 via Qwest fiber, OC3 via seperate Qwest fiber, Level3 via fastethernet via seperate fiber via seperate NOC). We provide service to 8 entire school districts (out of a possible 10 in our entire 25,000 square mile coverage area). /rant So, if I'm short sighted and you are not, why is my company 10x the size and making 10x the profit when both of us started at the same time? Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Why wouldn't you just put up your own AP's and service the same area rather than give that customer away to
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
We have less than 300 students in our school system here Rick. Our WHOLE school system! k-12 Fortunately, I've got 6000 square miles of coverage :-). marlon - Original Message - From: Smith, Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 5:31 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] WISP Peering Travis, a little perspective...you're in a technology hot-bed area of the country! Marlon's not. MUCH tougher for Marlon, in perspective, to get where he's gotten to today. There's probably only one school / one high school in Marlon's coverage area ? Odessa ain't big. :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 12:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Well, I seem to be holding my own ground pretty well... and I DON'T turn customers over to my competition... over 65 towers in operation, over 3,000 wireless subs, hundreds of DSL subs, almost 50 fiber subs (banks, hospitals, insurance, etc.)... and NO outside investors, stock holders, or any long-term debt whatsoever. :) (OT: Our annual gross revenue has been within 1% of the previous year for the past 4 years. However, I have managed to decrease our expenses by 10% every year. While this doesn't seem like a lot, realize we are a multi-million dollar company. There is EASY money to be made by just cutting expenses. Things like shopping around for better CC rates, better insurance rates, cheaper bandwidth, etc.) Also, if you leased your equipment, you could put the new tower up for less than $200 per month for EVERYTHING. ;) rant Call it what you will Marlon, but I believe you started your wireless operation around 1997 (going off your website). In 1997 we started our wireless service as well. Today we have over 3,000 connected wireless subs and are growing at over 100 per month. We have been profitable since our first year in business. This will be _another_ record breaking year for us. We have a backbone uptime of 99.99% over the last 2 years (including scheduled maintenance). Our wireless subs see a 99.9% uptime (including maintenance, interferance issues, blown AP's, etc). We deliver over 150Mbps of internet traffic during business hours using three diverse providers (DS3 via Qwest fiber, OC3 via seperate Qwest fiber, Level3 via fastethernet via seperate fiber via seperate NOC). We provide service to 8 entire school districts (out of a possible 10 in our entire 25,000 square mile coverage area). /rant So, if I'm short sighted and you are not, why is my company 10x the size and making 10x the profit when both of us started at the same time? Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Why wouldn't you just put up your own AP's and service the same area rather than give that customer away to the competition? Spectrum congestion. Cashflow Speed. Expanded coverage, very quickly, for no money. I would spend $5k and put up my own tower before I turn a potential customer away to the competition. I've done it many times over the years and it has always paid off. Once one person is connected, they tell their neighbors about it. Pretty soon an AP that was put up for a single customer has 10 or 20 customers on it. Um, the competitors ALREADY have networks in place! Doesn't seem to make business sense to me. Plus when they need tech support, how do you troubleshoot the competitors AP's? How do you do RF link tests and packet loss tests at 10:00PM when the customer is on the phone? I call the competitor on his cell phone. Just like he does with me. Your attidude, while pretty typical, is very short sighted. The more we work together to keep the airways clean and maximize the investments, the better all of our networks run and the faster we can grow. It's that silly ol' Together we stand thing. I was watching a group of kids play Red Rover the other day. I had to wonder how that game would turn out if the kids all tried to stand there and hold their OWN ground instead of working as a team. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Two of my competitors just sat down for lunch and worked out a network sharing agreement. It's a handshake deal at this point though. Basically we carved up a hilltop laying out coverage zones for each of us, and we set a price for using each other's ap's. Marlon Hey I think thats a good thing you've done there Marlon, getting along and even doing business with your competitors. Yeah. It's something that
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
I prefer certified gear. Pre built and ready to install. Having said that Dawn, when's the last time the FCC took a wisp to task for using non certified configurations? Hell, I've spent TWO YEARS trying to get an operator running over the eirp limits (way over) dealt with and still no headway. The bad (and in many ways good) think is that they just don't seem to care. They want the consumer taken care of. When you think about it, we whine about all of the things that the big boys get away with, all the while, we get away with things too. Shrug. marlon - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Rick, There is no way you would be legit if you decided to do this on your own. Considering the conversation that went on a few weeks back mentioned that people used Mikrotik systems because of the feature set and not cost why would you not buy an already certified system. To be safe I would go with a system that is already certified instead of chancing it. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Dawn DiPietro wrote: Rick, Does that mean we can take a 532 board and a cm9 and use it elsewhere and consider it certified ? No. You would have to use the exact same parts to be considered legal from the antenna to the power supply. This would mean you would have to get the manufacturer of all these parts in the trango system. If you took this approach you would be taking on the responsibility to make sure this really a was certified system. I assume you read the FAQ that Jack Unger setup to answer these questions about certification. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
We've got a long way to go yet. But here are a few things so far. You don't NEED a safe harbor. You don't HAVE to follow anyone's industry standard to be compliant. You don't need a TTP. What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to you. You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not follow *a* standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If you follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the standard. CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable. Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil, solvents, brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just dumping it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for making this a better country. No shame in that. By the time we (wispa) get done with CALEA we'll have a low/no cost option for the average company. Some of you will likely have to redesign your networks a bit. That won't be all bad as you'll also have more ability to understand what's happening on your network and to stop things like broadcast storms etc. You guys really do have to stop panicking! You're scaring the stuffing out of too many people. This isn't a bad law and it's doesn't have to be horribly expensive. MOST of us will likely have hybrid plans in place. Some of the work we'll do ourselves with our routers, servers etc. Some of the work we'll contract out to people like Bearhill. marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:02 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Those prices don't make me happy either. I have not heard an official anything yet from the wispa calea group. I don't believe they are done with their activities. It would be good to hear what they have to say concerning methods of compliance and costs. I read a doc that said a 15k isp could be 150k it also said it knew some isps had meager budgets and they said they will deal with that. I would assume they were not going to bankrupt a small isp. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Doesn't work that way Ed. YOU have to provide the data to LEA. They don't get to go in and take it. marlon - Original Message - From: Edward H. Winters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:10 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page actually the prices are the least of my worry regarding calea. i am more worried about some untrusted device on my network. assuming i would have to give root on the at least tap device to the trusted third party. i've been told by some TTPs i would need to provide credentials for every device on my network. imo this a recipe for disaster. if that is the case what is keeping someone at the calea provider from using my subscriber's traffic for their own personal gain? who guarantees the integrity of the TTP? what if they get caught doing the above, who is liable? i imagine we are. at a national level it seems silly to entrust random entities with national security issues. is there any sort of certification for these companies? on the international level, if there is no certification process to test the ability to become a calea provider, what is stopping some rogue nation from creating a TTP infrastructure to spy with? Ed On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 01:02:25 -0700 George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those prices don't make me happy either. I have not heard an official anything yet from the wispa calea group. I don't believe they are done with their activities. It would be good to hear what they have to say concerning methods of compliance and costs. I read a doc that said a 15k isp could be 150k it also said it knew some isps had meager budgets and they said they will deal with that. I would assume they were not going to bankrupt a small isp. -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
Marlon, Your comment that I was short sighted because I don't turn potential customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted because I don't share networks and customers with competition is asinine. You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when they sell, etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning customers over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an area. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other than the lease on that building, I've never walked away from a single bill. Even when many I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business with. 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with 30,000 or 300,000 subs. THAT's where *I* want to be. Actually, I want that $10,000,000 cash payment for my company. grin. Look again, at the original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that used to exist. Or the ones that had the cable companies etc. Why were those sales so valuable? I believe because of cooperation and standardization. Make it as cheap and easy to take over your operations as it can be. BTW, 1% per year in growth? Plus a 10% drop in costs? That's nice. Our gross sales have increased by 15 to 16% per year for the last three years. We're still not advertising either. And this year, so far, we're running 96% ahead of last years growth. I may be in a very small market, but I'm a damned good operator! laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Well, I seem to be holding my own ground pretty well... and I DON'T turn customers over to my competition... over 65 towers in operation, over 3,000 wireless subs, hundreds of DSL subs, almost 50 fiber subs (banks, hospitals, insurance, etc.)... and NO outside investors, stock holders, or any long-term debt whatsoever. :) (OT: Our annual gross revenue has been within 1% of the previous year for the past 4 years. However, I have managed to decrease our expenses by 10% every year. While this doesn't seem like a lot, realize we are a multi-million dollar company. There is EASY money to be made by just cutting expenses. Things like shopping around for better CC rates, better insurance rates, cheaper bandwidth, etc.) Also, if you leased your equipment, you could put the new tower up for less than $200 per month for EVERYTHING. ;) rant Call it what you will Marlon, but I believe you started your wireless operation around 1997 (going off your website). In 1997 we started our wireless service as well. Today we have over 3,000 connected wireless subs and are growing at over 100 per month. We have been profitable since our first year in business. This will be _another_ record breaking year for us. We have a backbone uptime of 99.99% over the last 2 years (including scheduled maintenance). Our wireless subs see a 99.9% uptime (including maintenance, interferance issues, blown AP's, etc). We deliver over 150Mbps of internet traffic during business hours using three diverse providers (DS3 via Qwest fiber, OC3 via seperate Qwest fiber, Level3 via fastethernet via seperate fiber via seperate NOC). We provide service to 8 entire school districts (out of a
Re: [WISPA] Post Card marketing
*nods* their minimum is 5k cards and I'm looking to go smaller than that. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Post Card marketing No, but postcard mania sends me lots of offers. postcardmania.com Mike Hammett wrote: Does anyone have examples of post card marketing they have done? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
It's called roaming. It happens with everyone but Nextel. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Marlon, Your comment that I was short sighted because I don't turn potential customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted because I don't share networks and customers with competition is asinine. You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when they sell, etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning customers over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an area. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other than the lease on that building, I've never walked away from a single bill. Even when many I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business with. 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with 30,000 or 300,000 subs. THAT's where *I* want to be. Actually, I want that $10,000,000 cash payment for my company. grin. Look again, at the original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that used to exist. Or the ones that had the cable companies etc. Why were those sales so valuable? I believe because of cooperation and standardization. Make it as cheap and easy to take over your operations as it can be. BTW, 1% per year in growth? Plus a 10% drop in costs? That's nice. Our gross sales have increased by 15 to 16% per year for the last three years. We're still not advertising either. And this year, so far, we're running 96% ahead of last years growth. I may be in a very small market, but I'm a damned good operator! laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Well, I seem to be holding my own ground pretty well... and I DON'T turn customers over to my competition... over 65 towers in operation, over 3,000 wireless subs, hundreds of DSL subs, almost 50 fiber subs (banks, hospitals, insurance, etc.)... and NO outside investors, stock holders, or any long-term debt whatsoever. :) (OT: Our annual gross revenue has been within 1% of the previous year for the past 4 years. However, I have managed to decrease our expenses by 10% every year. While this doesn't seem like a lot, realize we are a multi-million dollar company. There is EASY money to be made by just cutting expenses. Things like shopping around for better CC rates, better insurance rates, cheaper bandwidth, etc.) Also, if you leased your equipment, you could put the new tower up for less than $200 per month for EVERYTHING. ;) rant Call it what you will Marlon, but I believe you started your wireless operation around 1997 (going off your website). In 1997 we started our wireless service as well. Today we have over 3,000 connected wireless subs and are growing at over 100 per month. We have been profitable since our first year in business. This will be _another_ record breaking year for us. We have a backbone uptime of 99.99% over the last 2 years (including scheduled maintenance). Our wireless subs see a 99.9% uptime (including
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
- Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page We've got a long way to go yet. No, we have 3 weeks. But here are a few things so far. You don't NEED a safe harbor. You don't HAVE to follow anyone's industry standard to be compliant. No, of course not. Can YOU do this on your own? I suspect not. You don't need a TTP. Only if you're so well educated in networking that you can use the VERY geeky tools out there to rip the data and headers apart and put it all back together in the form they demand it be provided in... with perfect accuracy. What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to you. Of course. Since most of us can't do that, we HAVE to have third party something, be it software or hardware or services. You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a decent understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical experience, and not even any theoretical education on how its done. You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not follow *a* standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If you follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the standard. In other words, if you don't follow a standard then you're totally screwed, unless you have one of those brilliant geniuses on staff who can do anything. CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable. Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil, solvents, brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just dumping it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes Sure. We BURNED IT. Got useful heat from it. transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for making this a better country. No shame in that. NOT AT ALL. It is NOT reasonable to expect the vast majority of the operators to be able to do ANY of this, from the 24/7/365 phone answering to the deep technical knowledge, to the redesign of networks to the incredibly expensive TTP's.Trust me, Marlon, those TTP's are out to screw you as hard as they can. Competition? There WILL NOT BE ANY. If you have to sign an NDA to get a price, this is worse than the telephone company's competition- which does not exist. By the time we (wispa) get done with CALEA we'll have a low/no cost option for the average company. Some of you will likely have to redesign your Marlon, THERE IS NO AVERAGE COMPANY!That's the whole problem in a nutshell.The AVERAGE is going to be very small, since the vast majority of networks (by number) are little bitty things with 1 to 20 people informally sharing something. networks a bit. That won't be all bad as you'll also have more ability to understand what's happening on your network and to stop things like broadcast storms etc. I built my network right to begin with. I have no issues whatsoever with broadcast storms or otherwise.I only have to deal with things like virus and malware infected clients. You guys really do have to stop panicking! You're scaring the stuffing out of too many people. This isn't a bad law and it's doesn't have to be horribly expensive. You still do not get it. IT IS WRONG for them to transfer law enforcement duties to us, for their convenience. Dangit Marlon, it's just as if the cops demanded the gas stations GIVE them all the gas their cars need, and that the restaurants feed them for free and mechanics fix the cars for free, ISP's give them internet for free, telcos give them phones for free, blah, blah, blah. And darnit, I want to scare the stuffing out of EVERYONE so they'll stop being passive fools and STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES, instead of being wiped out like lemmings. MOST of us will likely have hybrid plans in place. Some of the work we'll do ourselves with our routers, servers etc. Some of the work we'll contract out to people like Bearhill. And who can afford a TTP?Maybe you can. I don't even collect a paycheck. Where the hell do you think that money will come from?Gads. Have you completely forgotten what it was like to start up? Just hanging on by your teeth, when you had to buy stuff in 1's and 2's and 5's because that's ALL THERE WAS in the bank and all there was going to be?You never had to ask people for 10 days or 30 days now and then on a bill? You think money just grows on trees and we're all swimming in the falling leaves? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:02
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
Roaming is not the same as sending the Client Account to the other company. On 4/29/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's called roaming. It happens with everyone but Nextel. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Marlon, Your comment that I was short sighted because I don't turn potential customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted because I don't share networks and customers with competition is asinine. You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when they sell, etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning customers over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an area. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other than the lease on that building, I've never walked away from a single bill. Even when many I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business with. 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with 30,000 or 300,000 subs. THAT's where *I* want to be. Actually, I want that $10,000,000 cash payment for my company. grin. Look again, at the original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that used to exist. Or the ones that had the cable companies etc. Why were those sales so valuable? I believe because of cooperation and standardization. Make it as cheap and easy to take over your operations as it can be. BTW, 1% per year in growth? Plus a 10% drop in costs? That's nice. Our gross sales have increased by 15 to 16% per year for the last three years. We're still not advertising either. And this year, so far, we're running 96% ahead of last years growth. I may be in a very small market, but I'm a damned good operator! laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Well, I seem to be holding my own ground pretty well... and I DON'T turn customers over to my competition... over 65 towers in operation, over 3,000 wireless subs, hundreds of DSL subs, almost 50 fiber subs (banks, hospitals, insurance, etc.)... and NO outside investors, stock holders, or any long-term debt whatsoever. :) (OT: Our annual gross revenue has been within 1% of the previous year for the past 4 years. However, I have managed to decrease our expenses by 10% every year. While this doesn't seem like a lot, realize we are a multi-million dollar company. There is EASY money to be made by just cutting expenses. Things like shopping around for better CC rates, better insurance rates, cheaper bandwidth, etc.) Also, if you leased your equipment, you could put the new tower up for less than $200 per month for EVERYTHING. ;) rant Call it what you will Marlon, but I believe you started your wireless operation around 1997 (going off your website). In 1997 we started our wireless service as well. Today we have over 3,000 connected wireless subs and are growing at over 100 per month. We have been profitable since our first year in business. This will be _another_ record breaking year for us. We have a
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
I like to think of it more like constructive public pressure rather than paranoia. Paranoia would be a term used in regard to unfounded concern. Certification as a matter of law is not unfounded concern, it is fact and therefore paranoia is not a just description of the pressures we see being placed on the makers of the platform. I personally love the Mikrotik platform but feel it should have a suite of certified system options for wireless use which we do not see currently. The lack of this has limited my ability to consider use of this platform for wireless solutions. I still use Mikrotik often for SoHo router / firewall / hotspot gateways / etc. I would consider it for some wireless applications if there were FCC certified options available. Until then I will not buy anything from anyone that is not FCC certified from this date forward. I spent about $300K on gear last year. Vendors take note! Scriv Mike Hammett wrote: People really are getting paranoid about MT certification lately. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Rick, Does that mean we can take a 532 board and a cm9 and use it elsewhere and consider it certified ? No. You would have to use the exact same parts to be considered legal from the antenna to the power supply. This would mean you would have to get the manufacturer of all these parts in the trango system. If you took this approach you would be taking on the responsibility to make sure this really a was certified system. I assume you read the FAQ that Jack Unger setup to answer these questions about certification. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Posting limits?
Is anyone else getting tired of sorting through the exhaustive amount of email we are getting on the public list? Much of it is good stuff but I think we see some people who are posting more than we need to all see. I am thinking we should consider a post count limit per day per person. I would like to hear feedback on this concept. Maybe a max of 5 posts per day? I think if we do this we might see the message count drop to a slightly lower amount and I personally think this would be good. The WISPA public list is becoming too much for me to digest each day. Just wondering what the rest of you think. Before someone jumps on this and finds that I have regularly posted more than this let me tell you that I already know this. I am going to try to self-regulate from now on whether the group agrees with this concept or not. If a post count per day limit is too limiting to everyone then perhaps we need to consider splitting up list subject matter into multiple lists and allowing people to be members on lists of varying themes. This public list is just becoming too large I think. Thoughts? Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Marlon, i understand the mechanics of it completely. the provider or the TTP have to provide the information within 8 seconds of real time to the LEA via a mediation device. every trusted third party i have talked with so far wants access on at least the intercept device. Ed On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:16:56 -0700 Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't work that way Ed. YOU have to provide the data to LEA. They don't get to go in and take it. marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
Marlon, Do you really believe the FCC does not care if WISP's are using uncertified gear? I doubt that you actually believe this. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I prefer certified gear. Pre built and ready to install. Having said that Dawn, when's the last time the FCC took a wisp to task for using non certified configurations? Hell, I've spent TWO YEARS trying to get an operator running over the eirp limits (way over) dealt with and still no headway. The bad (and in many ways good) think is that they just don't seem to care. They want the consumer taken care of. When you think about it, we whine about all of the things that the big boys get away with, all the while, we get away with things too. Shrug. marlon - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Rick, There is no way you would be legit if you decided to do this on your own. Considering the conversation that went on a few weeks back mentioned that people used Mikrotik systems because of the feature set and not cost why would you not buy an already certified system. To be safe I would go with a system that is already certified instead of chancing it. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Dawn DiPietro wrote: Rick, Does that mean we can take a 532 board and a cm9 and use it elsewhere and consider it certified ? No. You would have to use the exact same parts to be considered legal from the antenna to the power supply. This would mean you would have to get the manufacturer of all these parts in the trango system. If you took this approach you would be taking on the responsibility to make sure this really a was certified system. I assume you read the FAQ that Jack Unger setup to answer these questions about certification. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
Roaming would be more closely compared with peering than wholesaling. The cell companies trade minutes back and forth each month, they don't sell off the customer. Travis Microserv Mike Hammett wrote: It's called roaming. It happens with everyone but Nextel. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Marlon, Your comment that I was short sighted because I don't turn potential customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted because I don't share networks and customers with competition is asinine. You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when they sell, etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning customers over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an area. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other than the lease on that building, I've never walked away from a single bill. Even when many I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business with. 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with 30,000 or 300,000 subs. THAT's where *I* want to be. Actually, I want that $10,000,000 cash payment for my company. grin. Look again, at the original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that used to exist. Or the ones that had the cable companies etc. Why were those sales so valuable? I believe because of cooperation and standardization. Make it as cheap and easy to take over your operations as it can be. BTW, 1% per year in growth? Plus a 10% drop in costs? That's nice. Our gross sales have increased by 15 to 16% per year for the last three years. We're still not advertising either. And this year, so far, we're running 96% ahead of last years growth. I may be in a very small market, but I'm a damned good operator! laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Well, I seem to be holding my own ground pretty well... and I DON'T turn customers over to my competition... over 65 towers in operation, over 3,000 wireless subs, hundreds of DSL subs, almost 50 fiber subs (banks, hospitals, insurance, etc.)... and NO outside investors, stock holders, or any long-term debt whatsoever. :) (OT: Our annual gross revenue has been within 1% of the previous year for the past 4 years. However, I have managed to decrease our expenses by 10% every year. While this doesn't seem like a lot, realize we are a multi-million dollar company. There is EASY money to be made by just cutting expenses. Things like shopping around for better CC rates, better insurance rates, cheaper bandwidth, etc.) Also, if you leased your equipment, you could put the new tower up for less than $200 per month for EVERYTHING. ;) rant Call it what you will Marlon, but I believe you started your wireless operation around 1997 (going off your website). In 1997 we started our wireless service as well. Today we have over 3,000 connected wireless subs and are growing at over 100 per month. We have been profitable since our first year in
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
Roaming is the exact same thing as Marlon does, which is what we're talking about. You collect the revenues from the user, but the user is on someone else's equipment. You pay the other network for the use of it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeromie Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Roaming is not the same as sending the Client Account to the other company. On 4/29/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's called roaming. It happens with everyone but Nextel. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Marlon, Your comment that I was short sighted because I don't turn potential customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted because I don't share networks and customers with competition is asinine. You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when they sell, etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning customers over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an area. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other than the lease on that building, I've never walked away from a single bill. Even when many I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business with. 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with 30,000 or 300,000 subs. THAT's where *I* want to be. Actually, I want that $10,000,000 cash payment for my company. grin. Look again, at the original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that used to exist. Or the ones that had the cable companies etc. Why were those sales so valuable? I believe because of cooperation and standardization. Make it as cheap and easy to take over your operations as it can be. BTW, 1% per year in growth? Plus a 10% drop in costs? That's nice. Our gross sales have increased by 15 to 16% per year for the last three years. We're still not advertising either. And this year, so far, we're running 96% ahead of last years growth. I may be in a very small market, but I'm a damned good operator! laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Well, I seem to be holding my own ground pretty well... and I DON'T turn customers over to my competition... over 65 towers in operation, over 3,000 wireless subs, hundreds of DSL subs, almost 50 fiber subs (banks, hospitals, insurance, etc.)... and NO outside investors, stock holders, or any long-term debt whatsoever. :) (OT: Our annual gross revenue has been within 1% of the previous year for the past 4 years. However, I have managed to decrease our expenses by 10% every year. While this doesn't seem like a lot, realize we are a multi-million dollar company. There is EASY money to be made by just cutting expenses. Things like shopping around for better CC rates, better insurance
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not avoiding a certified system. However, it is just one of the many factors that go in to choosing a system. The cards I am using are certified with the antennas I use (to the best of my knowledge, waiting for the FCC to come back up). I will have my Mikrotik certification issues sorted out this summer. As Marlon said earlier, the FCC isn't going after ma and pa WISP, but after gross negligence in vendors and manufacturers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? I like to think of it more like constructive public pressure rather than paranoia. Paranoia would be a term used in regard to unfounded concern. Certification as a matter of law is not unfounded concern, it is fact and therefore paranoia is not a just description of the pressures we see being placed on the makers of the platform. I personally love the Mikrotik platform but feel it should have a suite of certified system options for wireless use which we do not see currently. The lack of this has limited my ability to consider use of this platform for wireless solutions. I still use Mikrotik often for SoHo router / firewall / hotspot gateways / etc. I would consider it for some wireless applications if there were FCC certified options available. Until then I will not buy anything from anyone that is not FCC certified from this date forward. I spent about $300K on gear last year. Vendors take note! Scriv Mike Hammett wrote: People really are getting paranoid about MT certification lately. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Rick, Does that mean we can take a 532 board and a cm9 and use it elsewhere and consider it certified ? No. You would have to use the exact same parts to be considered legal from the antenna to the power supply. This would mean you would have to get the manufacturer of all these parts in the trango system. If you took this approach you would be taking on the responsibility to make sure this really a was certified system. I assume you read the FAQ that Jack Unger setup to answer these questions about certification. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
I joined this list last week and already consider leaving due to the drama. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:07 PM Subject: [WISPA] Posting limits? Is anyone else getting tired of sorting through the exhaustive amount of email we are getting on the public list? Much of it is good stuff but I think we see some people who are posting more than we need to all see. I am thinking we should consider a post count limit per day per person. I would like to hear feedback on this concept. Maybe a max of 5 posts per day? I think if we do this we might see the message count drop to a slightly lower amount and I personally think this would be good. The WISPA public list is becoming too much for me to digest each day. Just wondering what the rest of you think. Before someone jumps on this and finds that I have regularly posted more than this let me tell you that I already know this. I am going to try to self-regulate from now on whether the group agrees with this concept or not. If a post count per day limit is too limiting to everyone then perhaps we need to consider splitting up list subject matter into multiple lists and allowing people to be members on lists of varying themes. This public list is just becoming too large I think. Thoughts? Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
It's called prioritization, we all do it. Going after ma and pa wisp isn't very high on their list of things to do. With as rare as they bust a rogue vendor or manufacturer, how often do you think they go after someone intentionally using grossly overpowered gear, much less certified radio\antenna combo's. They're going to go after a rice rocket going 105 mph in a 65 before a Ford F-150 doing 70. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Marlon, Do you really believe the FCC does not care if WISP's are using uncertified gear? I doubt that you actually believe this. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I prefer certified gear. Pre built and ready to install. Having said that Dawn, when's the last time the FCC took a wisp to task for using non certified configurations? Hell, I've spent TWO YEARS trying to get an operator running over the eirp limits (way over) dealt with and still no headway. The bad (and in many ways good) think is that they just don't seem to care. They want the consumer taken care of. When you think about it, we whine about all of the things that the big boys get away with, all the while, we get away with things too. Shrug. marlon - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Rick, There is no way you would be legit if you decided to do this on your own. Considering the conversation that went on a few weeks back mentioned that people used Mikrotik systems because of the feature set and not cost why would you not buy an already certified system. To be safe I would go with a system that is already certified instead of chancing it. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Dawn DiPietro wrote: Rick, Does that mean we can take a 532 board and a cm9 and use it elsewhere and consider it certified ? No. You would have to use the exact same parts to be considered legal from the antenna to the power supply. This would mean you would have to get the manufacturer of all these parts in the trango system. If you took this approach you would be taking on the responsibility to make sure this really a was certified system. I assume you read the FAQ that Jack Unger setup to answer these questions about certification. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Post Card marketing
One thing I should point out is the postage costs. If you go to your local chamber of commerce and get their bulk mail permit number you can pay bulk rate at the post office. They typically let all the local businesses use it no charge. Now if you compare the difference in postage price between a postcard and a tri folded flier, it probably is the entire cost of the flier paper. The postage for postcards is that much more, check the pricing. During our dial up days, we did quite abit of fliers. When you looked at our flier before opening it, one side was the addressing to and the other side had a coupon with the perferated lines and picture of the sizzors and a save this coupon line just underneath it. I figure there are so many people who clip coupons, if they seen a coupon, they would want to not toss it in the trash and open it up and clip the coupon. Naturally inside was the message I was sending. The other way to get the flier out cheaply is to stuff your local newspaper. In our town we have a small twice a week newspaper. They were cheaper than postage and they even folded the fliers for us at no extra charge. Mike Hammett wrote: *nods* their minimum is 5k cards and I'm looking to go smaller than that. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Post Card marketing No, but postcard mania sends me lots of offers. postcardmania.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
Mike, There is no excuse for using uncertified gear no matter who is at fault. This attitude is going to hurt the WISP industry more than anything. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Mike Hammett wrote: It's called prioritization, we all do it. Going after ma and pa wisp isn't very high on their list of things to do. With as rare as they bust a rogue vendor or manufacturer, how often do you think they go after someone intentionally using grossly overpowered gear, much less certified radio\antenna combo's. They're going to go after a rice rocket going 105 mph in a 65 before a Ford F-150 doing 70. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Marlon, Do you really believe the FCC does not care if WISP's are using uncertified gear? I doubt that you actually believe this. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I prefer certified gear. Pre built and ready to install. Having said that Dawn, when's the last time the FCC took a wisp to task for using non certified configurations? Hell, I've spent TWO YEARS trying to get an operator running over the eirp limits (way over) dealt with and still no headway. The bad (and in many ways good) think is that they just don't seem to care. They want the consumer taken care of. When you think about it, we whine about all of the things that the big boys get away with, all the while, we get away with things too. Shrug. marlon - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Rick, There is no way you would be legit if you decided to do this on your own. Considering the conversation that went on a few weeks back mentioned that people used Mikrotik systems because of the feature set and not cost why would you not buy an already certified system. To be safe I would go with a system that is already certified instead of chancing it. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Dawn DiPietro wrote: Rick, Does that mean we can take a 532 board and a cm9 and use it elsewhere and consider it certified ? No. You would have to use the exact same parts to be considered legal from the antenna to the power supply. This would mean you would have to get the manufacturer of all these parts in the trango system. If you took this approach you would be taking on the responsibility to make sure this really a was certified system. I assume you read the FAQ that Jack Unger setup to answer these questions about certification. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Post Card marketing
I used to give dominos pizza a few hundread flyers at a time for satellite tv specials and they would stick em on the boxes for free. Best marketing I have ever done. When I finally saturated that parish where I was that was the end of that. Joe Superior Wireless New Orleans,La. www.superior1.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
Dawn DiPietro wrote: Mike, There is no excuse for using uncertified gear no matter who is at fault. This attitude is going to hurt the WISP industry more than anything. Dawn, we got to where we are today because of the independent thinking tech who rolled his own systems. I very much doubt we would be as far forward as we are without the shade tree wisp types. Even Moto got one hell of a kick start by converting 802.11b systems over to their platform. I'm sure Alvarion, Trango and the others are doing well with fork lift upgrades by wisps who did what they had to to get going. Yes, today is a the beginning of a new era, one which will demand certification, but lets not forget our roots, and lets stop casting stones or trying to paint a nasty picture of some. Those who have never deployed an uncertified system are either far and few between or have not been in this industry very long. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
I wish I had 30. ;-) 11 paying customers here. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Mike Hammett wrote: I joined this list last week and already consider leaving due to the drama. It may feel a little like drama Mike, but calea is important and some people have very strong feelings one way or the other. It's good to see opinions, Ed saying he has 30 subs and will be out of business is informative and compelling. Some of us have operations that can carry the weight of the calea burden and others don't. Sometimes we all forget about the other guys circumstances. So dialogue is good. It's the ranting that gets old. Information is good, the more the better. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
I just hit next when it's thread that is tiresome. Maybe a posting limit for nonmembers :) Overall, if the dialogue is kept civil there should be no issues. Ranting is old though. John Scrivner wrote: Is anyone else getting tired of sorting through the exhaustive amount of email we are getting on the public list? Much of it is good stuff but I think we see some people who are posting more than we need to all see. I am thinking we should consider a post count limit per day per person. I would like to hear feedback on this concept. Maybe a max of 5 posts per day? I think if we do this we might see the message count drop to a slightly lower amount and I personally think this would be good. The WISPA public list is becoming too much for me to digest each day. Just wondering what the rest of you think. Before someone jumps on this and finds that I have regularly posted more than this let me tell you that I already know this. I am going to try to self-regulate from now on whether the group agrees with this concept or not. If a post count per day limit is too limiting to everyone then perhaps we need to consider splitting up list subject matter into multiple lists and allowing people to be members on lists of varying themes. This public list is just becoming too large I think. Thoughts? Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
Yeah, but you have all kinds of things going on. I see you on all the various lists looking for everything from fiber paths to long distance.. Heck, one of these days, I may even buy something from you. George Mike Hammett wrote: I wish I had 30. ;-) 11 paying customers here. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Mike Hammett wrote: I joined this list last week and already consider leaving due to the drama. It may feel a little like drama Mike, but calea is important and some people have very strong feelings one way or the other. It's good to see opinions, Ed saying he has 30 subs and will be out of business is informative and compelling. Some of us have operations that can carry the weight of the calea burden and others don't. Sometimes we all forget about the other guys circumstances. So dialogue is good. It's the ranting that gets old. Information is good, the more the better. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
I will admit that I have a lot of potential, but potential doesn't mean dollars now. More than once I've looked at finding a part time job (again) so I have some money to invest in my operations. I need more equipment. I need more marketing. I need developers. I have no or little money to pay for the above. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Yeah, but you have all kinds of things going on. I see you on all the various lists looking for everything from fiber paths to long distance.. Heck, one of these days, I may even buy something from you. George Mike Hammett wrote: I wish I had 30. ;-) 11 paying customers here. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Mike Hammett wrote: I joined this list last week and already consider leaving due to the drama. It may feel a little like drama Mike, but calea is important and some people have very strong feelings one way or the other. It's good to see opinions, Ed saying he has 30 subs and will be out of business is informative and compelling. Some of us have operations that can carry the weight of the calea burden and others don't. Sometimes we all forget about the other guys circumstances. So dialogue is good. It's the ranting that gets old. Information is good, the more the better. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
George, I am not painting a bad picture of anyone. I just think that if you are going to be a part of this industry then you need to play by the rules no matter how much you dislike it. Yes, there was innovation by breaking the rules in the beginning but that was before there was an industry. Now that WISP's are more commonplace the rules have changed and if you want to be a part of it you need to mature along with the rest of the industry. I guess I have reached my limit for the day so I will continue to pester you all tomorrow. ;-) Regards, Dawn DiPietro George Rogato wrote: Dawn DiPietro wrote: Mike, There is no excuse for using uncertified gear no matter who is at fault. This attitude is going to hurt the WISP industry more than anything. Dawn, we got to where we are today because of the independent thinking tech who rolled his own systems. I very much doubt we would be as far forward as we are without the shade tree wisp types. Even Moto got one hell of a kick start by converting 802.11b systems over to their platform. I'm sure Alvarion, Trango and the others are doing well with fork lift upgrades by wisps who did what they had to to get going. Yes, today is a the beginning of a new era, one which will demand certification, but lets not forget our roots, and lets stop casting stones or trying to paint a nasty picture of some. Those who have never deployed an uncertified system are either far and few between or have not been in this industry very long. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
So are you telling us you are exempt, then? The justificatiom is that you are small- a Ma and Pa? Mikrotik certification is already sorted out. They are not approved. Look for the label on the end product. If you made it yourself, it ain't certified! Don't get me wrong, I'm not avoiding a certified system. However, it is just one of the many factors that go in to choosing a system. The cards I am using are certified with the antennas I use (to the best of my knowledge, waiting for the FCC to come back up). I will have my Mikrotik certification issues sorted out this summer. As Marlon said earlier, the FCC isn't going after ma and pa WISP, but after gross negligence in vendors and manufacturers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? I like to think of it more like constructive public pressure rather than paranoia. Paranoia would be a term used in regard to unfounded concern. Certification as a matter of law is not unfounded concern, it is fact and therefore paranoia is not a just description of the pressures we see being placed on the makers of the platform. I personally love the Mikrotik platform but feel it should have a suite of certified system options for wireless use which we do not see currently. The lack of this has limited my ability to consider use of this platform for wireless solutions. I still use Mikrotik often for SoHo router / firewall / hotspot gateways / etc. I would consider it for some wireless applications if there were FCC certified options available. Until then I will not buy anything from anyone that is not FCC certified from this date forward. I spent about $300K on gear last year. Vendors take note! Scriv Mike Hammett wrote: People really are getting paranoid about MT certification lately. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Rick, Does that mean we can take a 532 board and a cm9 and use it elsewhere and consider it certified ? No. You would have to use the exact same parts to be considered legal from the antenna to the power supply. This would mean you would have to get the manufacturer of all these parts in the trango system. If you took this approach you would be taking on the responsibility to make sure this really a was certified system. I assume you read the FAQ that Jack Unger setup to answer these questions about certification. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Same can be said of Insurance, since really that's what it is. Mark Koskenmaki wrote: don't forget, you can't charge LEA for the TTP's services. You may pay that TTP for years and they never do a single thing for you. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Posting limits?
I vote NO to posting limits... If you don't like the amount of mail, then unsubscribe to the mail and get a daily digest (if it is available) or read the posts via www; but I don't think posting limits should be imposed Ty Carter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 3:07 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Posting limits? Is anyone else getting tired of sorting through the exhaustive amount of email we are getting on the public list? Much of it is good stuff but I think we see some people who are posting more than we need to all see. I am thinking we should consider a post count limit per day per person. I would like to hear feedback on this concept. Maybe a max of 5 posts per day? I think if we do this we might see the message count drop to a slightly lower amount and I personally think this would be good. The WISPA public list is becoming too much for me to digest each day. Just wondering what the rest of you think. Before someone jumps on this and finds that I have regularly posted more than this let me tell you that I already know this. I am going to try to self-regulate from now on whether the group agrees with this concept or not. If a post count per day limit is too limiting to everyone then perhaps we need to consider splitting up list subject matter into multiple lists and allowing people to be members on lists of varying themes. This public list is just becoming too large I think. Thoughts? Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
I have contacted my representatives to express my support for Rep. Stupak's efforts. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Mark Koskenmaki wrote: We're flying blind, here. None of us small guys have lawers, consultants, or super techies who can just do this, much less implement the time constraints and 24/7/365 aspects, etc. And we're wondering why the only organization devoted to our industry won't even appeal on our behalf to the authorities, and try to authoritatively explain to them they've gone far beyond the capabilities of most of the target networks. I agree that CALEA is burdensome, so you should be talking about how you can help Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.). You spent weeks bitching about it -- now ALL you should be doing is figuring out how to help him. BTW, TTP start at $700 or so per month and no upfront. Solera's box is just $7000, one time (and you could probably finance that). Stop reading here because the rest of this is going to peeve you: I have to say that if you can't afford lawyers, CPA's or techies or whatever it takes to make your business a business, and you aren't making a profit (assumed from the $100 in the bank), then maybe you have a hobby and not a business. Businesses in America have many, many regulations, laws, guidelines et al to follow from OSHA, FTC, FCC, Dept. Of Labor, IRS, etc. Too many people in this business take advice from listservs. And run their business like a hobby. This includes the way they approach the business, how they run it, and rules they disregard, ignore or don't know about. I don't know too many other industries like this one. Most are highly regulated. Most have a barrier to entry. Could you image if you Googled your doctor and found him asking for advice about his practice on a public listserv? I would venture that if I was concerned about health and found all this talk about illegal radios and high-power, I would worry about cancer rates in my area, find a lawyer, and sue for jeopardizing my health. With the looming deadline, I hope that you have asset protection in place. By that I mean, a business entity separating your personal assets from your business assets. You will probably find by June 1 that a couple of businesses have been hit with huge fines for CALEA non-compliance. It's coming. Again, work on helping Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.)., but at the same realize that most of this is too little too late. - Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
Yes, the rules have changed. They are more lax than they were in the past. As I said, I have a path to compliance. There was, is, and will continue to be innovation in this industry. If not, we're all dead. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? George, I am not painting a bad picture of anyone. I just think that if you are going to be a part of this industry then you need to play by the rules no matter how much you dislike it. Yes, there was innovation by breaking the rules in the beginning but that was before there was an industry. Now that WISP's are more commonplace the rules have changed and if you want to be a part of it you need to mature along with the rest of the industry. I guess I have reached my limit for the day so I will continue to pester you all tomorrow. ;-) Regards, Dawn DiPietro George Rogato wrote: Dawn DiPietro wrote: Mike, There is no excuse for using uncertified gear no matter who is at fault. This attitude is going to hurt the WISP industry more than anything. Dawn, we got to where we are today because of the independent thinking tech who rolled his own systems. I very much doubt we would be as far forward as we are without the shade tree wisp types. Even Moto got one hell of a kick start by converting 802.11b systems over to their platform. I'm sure Alvarion, Trango and the others are doing well with fork lift upgrades by wisps who did what they had to to get going. Yes, today is a the beginning of a new era, one which will demand certification, but lets not forget our roots, and lets stop casting stones or trying to paint a nasty picture of some. Those who have never deployed an uncertified system are either far and few between or have not been in this industry very long. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
I am not exempt from anything, but my 11 customers and I can certainly fly under the radar using gear isn't harming anyone until I have completed my Mikrotik compliance efforts. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? So are you telling us you are exempt, then? The justificatiom is that you are small- a Ma and Pa? Mikrotik certification is already sorted out. They are not approved. Look for the label on the end product. If you made it yourself, it ain't certified! Don't get me wrong, I'm not avoiding a certified system. However, it is just one of the many factors that go in to choosing a system. The cards I am using are certified with the antennas I use (to the best of my knowledge, waiting for the FCC to come back up). I will have my Mikrotik certification issues sorted out this summer. As Marlon said earlier, the FCC isn't going after ma and pa WISP, but after gross negligence in vendors and manufacturers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? I like to think of it more like constructive public pressure rather than paranoia. Paranoia would be a term used in regard to unfounded concern. Certification as a matter of law is not unfounded concern, it is fact and therefore paranoia is not a just description of the pressures we see being placed on the makers of the platform. I personally love the Mikrotik platform but feel it should have a suite of certified system options for wireless use which we do not see currently. The lack of this has limited my ability to consider use of this platform for wireless solutions. I still use Mikrotik often for SoHo router / firewall / hotspot gateways / etc. I would consider it for some wireless applications if there were FCC certified options available. Until then I will not buy anything from anyone that is not FCC certified from this date forward. I spent about $300K on gear last year. Vendors take note! Scriv Mike Hammett wrote: People really are getting paranoid about MT certification lately. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Rick, Does that mean we can take a 532 board and a cm9 and use it elsewhere and consider it certified ? No. You would have to use the exact same parts to be considered legal from the antenna to the power supply. This would mean you would have to get the manufacturer of all these parts in the trango system. If you took this approach you would be taking on the responsibility to make sure this really a was certified system. I assume you read the FAQ that Jack Unger setup to answer these questions about certification. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page.... telecom services
Mark Koskenmaki wrote: There are many other ways for law enforcement to get what it needs. Even better would be a REAL law, written properly, and funded properly by Congress, instead of this absurdity about information services and telecommuncations services. You know, of course, that this hybrid 'standing' is about as shaky as a sand castle on the beach. It wont' be any time before we're fully telecommuncations services and the mandates and regulations and controls fly at us like vultures to roadkill or flies to a cowpie. Actually, shaky would be incorrect. Please read the Supreme Court's opinion on Brand-X. It states in no uncertain terms that the FCC is the agency of authority to decide what is and is not telecom and information services. It's not so much about telecom versus info; it's about Title I, II and III. CALEA falls under III, I believe, as do all providers in this space. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
Mike, If you think you are under the radar you are sorely mistaken. You admitted on a public list that gear you use is not certified. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Mike Hammett wrote: I am not exempt from anything, but my 11 customers and I can certainly fly under the radar using gear isn't harming anyone until I have completed my Mikrotik compliance efforts. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? So are you telling us you are exempt, then? The justificatiom is that you are small- a Ma and Pa? Mikrotik certification is already sorted out. They are not approved. Look for the label on the end product. If you made it yourself, it ain't certified! Don't get me wrong, I'm not avoiding a certified system. However, it is just one of the many factors that go in to choosing a system. The cards I am using are certified with the antennas I use (to the best of my knowledge, waiting for the FCC to come back up). I will have my Mikrotik certification issues sorted out this summer. As Marlon said earlier, the FCC isn't going after ma and pa WISP, but after gross negligence in vendors and manufacturers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? I like to think of it more like constructive public pressure rather than paranoia. Paranoia would be a term used in regard to unfounded concern. Certification as a matter of law is not unfounded concern, it is fact and therefore paranoia is not a just description of the pressures we see being placed on the makers of the platform. I personally love the Mikrotik platform but feel it should have a suite of certified system options for wireless use which we do not see currently. The lack of this has limited my ability to consider use of this platform for wireless solutions. I still use Mikrotik often for SoHo router / firewall / hotspot gateways / etc. I would consider it for some wireless applications if there were FCC certified options available. Until then I will not buy anything from anyone that is not FCC certified from this date forward. I spent about $300K on gear last year. Vendors take note! Scriv Mike Hammett wrote: People really are getting paranoid about MT certification lately. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Rick, Does that mean we can take a 532 board and a cm9 and use it elsewhere and consider it certified ? No. You would have to use the exact same parts to be considered legal from the antenna to the power supply. This would mean you would have to get the manufacturer of all these parts in the trango system. If you took this approach you would be taking on the responsibility to make sure this really a was certified system. I assume you read the FAQ that Jack Unger setup to answer these questions about certification. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
On Sun, 2007-04-29 at 14:07 -0500, John Scrivner wrote: Is anyone else getting tired of sorting through the exhaustive amount of email we are getting on the public list? Much of it is good stuff but I think we see some people who are posting more than we need to all see. I am thinking we should consider a post count limit per day per person. I would like to hear feedback on this concept. I think limiting posts would be a last resort fix to the problem. Believe it or not, this is a common problem on almost all email lists. The main problem is a lack of netiquette on this list. Good email manners, would fix the problem. http://www.albion.com/netiquette/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette read Usenet and Email topics This is a list of the common annoyances I see on this list, 1) If you are replying to every message in a thread, STOP, Think, Let others respond, read, then reply. http://www.ryanlangseth.com/~langseth/Email.png 2) DON'T Start a new thread by hitting reply to the last message in another thread and changing the Subject line. It is bad form, and will show up wrong in the mailing list archives and some people's email client (mine). If you want to branch the subject prefix with your new topic and was: eg. Email List Etiquette WAS: Posting Limits? http://www.ryanlangseth.com/~langseth/Email.png 3) Remember this list is public, indexed by google. What you post here, much like MySpace it is going to be around for a very long time. Also remember this list is the public face of Wispa, if we want to _not_ be treated like cowboys by others (Telcos, FCC, Govnmt, etc), don't act like cowboys on the list. 4) DON'T troll. Trolls look for fights, they argue for the sake of arguing, they reduce conversations to personal attacks. One more thing, If you haven't watch/listened to it yet (do it twice): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 Ryan -- InvisiMax System Administrator e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
Dawn DiPietro wrote: Mike, If you think you are under the radar you are sorely mistaken. You admitted on a public list that gear you use is not certified. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Yeah, but your over the limit! :) I just want to know why the feds don't just drive on over to Teletronics in Maryland and shut them down? Heck why go after a 3000 little guys when you can go after one big guy. They've been selling unlicensed amplifiers and uncertified systems for as long as I can remember. Heck, talk about posting a message on this list, what about having a full blown catalog online advertizing US sales with prices next to them? I believe they should have spent the 3 or 4 g's to get the systems they sell certified before they sold them. They make millions easily selling uncertified gear and it's not a secret. Lets look at this from all points of view. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
Except in Marlon's case that user will NEVER be on your own network. Roaming is the exception not the norm with cell companies. Personally I think a better solution (if you absolutely don't want to just put up your own towers) is to just refer the customer to the other provider and hope they do the same in the future. Honestly, in Marlon's model, you aren't any different than just reselling DSL or Cable service. You don't have control of the network and you don't have control of the user's radio and/or router. And calling the other WISP's cell phone when a customer is down does NOT scale... especially to the levels Marlon is hoping to be at one day. Travis Microserv Mike Hammett wrote: Roaming is the exact same thing as Marlon does, which is what we're talking about. You collect the revenues from the user, but the user is on someone else's equipment. You pay the other network for the use of it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeromie Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Roaming is not the same as sending the Client Account to the other company. On 4/29/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's called roaming. It happens with everyone but Nextel. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Marlon, Your comment that I was short sighted because I don't turn potential customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted because I don't share networks and customers with competition is asinine. You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when they sell, etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning customers over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an area. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other than the lease on that building, I've never walked away from a single bill. Even when many I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business with. 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with 30,000 or 300,000 subs. THAT's where *I* want to be. Actually, I want that $10,000,000 cash payment for my company. grin. Look again, at the original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that used to exist. Or the ones that had the cable companies etc. Why were those sales so valuable? I believe because of cooperation and standardization. Make it as cheap and easy to take over your operations as it can be. BTW, 1% per year in growth? Plus a 10% drop in costs? That's nice. Our gross sales have increased by 15 to 16% per year for the last three years. We're still not advertising either. And this year, so far, we're running 96% ahead of last years growth. I may be in a very small market, but I'm a damned good operator! laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
Sure they are. I have an Inland Cellular account. A small local company. Guess where it works. Anywhere Verizon and 3 or 4 others have networks! Guess what, you can have a Verison account and it works here. Even if you don't have a clue who Inland Cellular is. What's wrong with one of MY customers working on your network? You get paid for an account you'll never likely get. Instead, I'll work with one of your competitors instead. Or hey, maybe I'll just build my own network there eh? After all, if I want to service that market there are three choices. Which one's best for you? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Marlon, Your comment that I was short sighted because I don't turn potential customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted because I don't share networks and customers with competition is asinine. You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when they sell, etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning customers over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an area. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other than the lease on that building, I've never walked away from a single bill. Even when many I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business with. 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with 30,000 or 300,000 subs. THAT's where *I* want to be. Actually, I want that $10,000,000 cash payment for my company. grin. Look again, at the original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that used to exist. Or the ones that had the cable companies etc. Why were those sales so valuable? I believe because of cooperation and standardization. Make it as cheap and easy to take over your operations as it can be. BTW, 1% per year in growth? Plus a 10% drop in costs? That's nice. Our gross sales have increased by 15 to 16% per year for the last three years. We're still not advertising either. And this year, so far, we're running 96% ahead of last years growth. I may be in a very small market, but I'm a damned good operator! laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Well, I seem to be holding my own ground pretty well... and I DON'T turn customers over to my competition... over 65 towers in operation, over 3,000 wireless subs, hundreds of DSL subs, almost 50 fiber subs (banks, hospitals, insurance, etc.)... and NO outside investors, stock holders, or any long-term debt whatsoever. :) (OT: Our annual gross revenue has been within 1% of the previous year for the past 4 years. However, I have managed to decrease our expenses by 10% every year. While this doesn't seem like a lot, realize we are a multi-million dollar company. There is EASY money to be made by just cutting expenses. Things like shopping around for better CC rates, better insurance rates, cheaper bandwidth, etc.) Also, if you leased your equipment, you could put the new tower up for less than $200 per month for EVERYTHING. ;) rant Call it what you will Marlon, but I believe you
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page.... telecom services
- Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page telecom services Mark Koskenmaki wrote: There are many other ways for law enforcement to get what it needs. Even better would be a REAL law, written properly, and funded properly by Congress, instead of this absurdity about information services and telecommuncations services. You know, of course, that this hybrid 'standing' is about as shaky as a sand castle on the beach. It wont' be any time before we're fully telecommuncations services and the mandates and regulations and controls fly at us like vultures to roadkill or flies to a cowpie. Actually, shaky would be incorrect. Please read the Supreme Court's opinion on Brand-X. It states in no Shaky is the term I used, because this classification isn't law, just FCC opinion. That's obviously subject to whatever breeze blows through DC. Now that there is no longer consistency in all matters, the defense against further redefinition is little more than how much noise and ruckus we can raise. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
- Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page We've got a long way to go yet. No, we have 3 weeks. Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need. But here are a few things so far. You don't NEED a safe harbor. You don't HAVE to follow anyone's industry standard to be compliant. No, of course not. Can YOU do this on your own? I suspect not. Nope. I'll have to hire Butch to help me out. Probably Mike too. But those two things won't cost all that much. It'll just be some programing on devices I already own. Not much worse than what I do when I need some router or server work done now. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. I honestly don't understand why you want to pile all of this stress upon yourself. Those of us that are EMBEDDED in the problem aren't as worried as you are. If it were really as bad as you're making this out to be we, of all people, should be ready to put a bullet in our heads. Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts. You don't need a TTP. Only if you're so well educated in networking that you can use the VERY geeky tools out there to rip the data and headers apart and put it all back together in the form they demand it be provided in... with perfect accuracy. Nope. There are free tools out there to help and people that don't charge more than OPEC to help you out. What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to you. Of course. Since most of us can't do that, we HAVE to have third party something, be it software or hardware or services. Nope. That'll be the easiest but it's not a requirement. But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help :-) You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a decent understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical experience, and not even any theoretical education on how its done. Nope. It just means you have to keep something called a HASH file. Whatever that is. You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not follow *a* standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If you follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the standard. In other words, if you don't follow a standard then you're totally screwed, unless you have one of those brilliant geniuses on staff who can do anything. Well, certainly following a standard is going to make things cheaper and easier on us. But hey, that's part of why people should support WISPA. We're putting forth the effort to be able to develop a standard aimed right at our industry. Cool huh!?!?!?!?! CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable. Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil, solvents, brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just dumping it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes Sure. We BURNED IT. Got useful heat from it. And put lots of nice heavy metals in the air. Nice. grin You burned your antifreeze? Greasy rags? Solvent? Right. transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for making this a better country. No shame in that. NOT AT ALL. It is NOT reasonable to expect the vast majority of the operators to be able to do ANY of this, from the 24/7/365 phone answering to the deep technical knowledge, to the redesign of networks to the incredibly expensive TTP's.Trust me, Marlon, those TTP's are out to screw you as hard as they can. Competition? There WILL NOT BE ANY. If you have to sign an NDA to get a price, this is worse than the telephone company's competition- which does not exist. You don't have to be available 24/7/356. Didn't you read the FAQ? Didn't you file your forms? You just have to tell them who to call, and if there's no place to call 24/7 you have to tell them when they CAN likely reach you. By the time we (wispa) get done with CALEA we'll have a low/no cost option for the average company. Some of you will likely have to redesign your Marlon, THERE IS NO AVERAGE COMPANY!That's the whole problem in a nutshell.The AVERAGE is going to be very small, since the vast majority of networks (by number) are little bitty things with 1 to 20 people informally sharing something. Grin. Again Mark, you are
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Not so. Not always. In fact, not usually from what we've been told. They (lea) won't often have the ability to TAKE the data as fast as we can shove it out to the customer. With a PHONE call, that's likely the case. But unless you do VOIP, as in own the switch, the voip company will have to deal with that, not you. marlon - Original Message - From: Edward H. Winters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Marlon, i understand the mechanics of it completely. the provider or the TTP have to provide the information within 8 seconds of real time to the LEA via a mediation device. every trusted third party i have talked with so far wants access on at least the intercept device. Ed On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:16:56 -0700 Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't work that way Ed. YOU have to provide the data to LEA. They don't get to go in and take it. marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ?
Unfortunately, their ACTIONS bear this out Dawn. As I said, when's the last time you heard of anyone getting in trouble for using the wrong antenna? Hell, people don't even get in trouble for using the wrong AMPS!!! And they made the amp rules stronger a couple of years ago. marlon - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Marlon, Do you really believe the FCC does not care if WISP's are using uncertified gear? I doubt that you actually believe this. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I prefer certified gear. Pre built and ready to install. Having said that Dawn, when's the last time the FCC took a wisp to task for using non certified configurations? Hell, I've spent TWO YEARS trying to get an operator running over the eirp limits (way over) dealt with and still no headway. The bad (and in many ways good) think is that they just don't seem to care. They want the consumer taken care of. When you think about it, we whine about all of the things that the big boys get away with, all the while, we get away with things too. Shrug. marlon - Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Rick, There is no way you would be legit if you decided to do this on your own. Considering the conversation that went on a few weeks back mentioned that people used Mikrotik systems because of the feature set and not cost why would you not buy an already certified system. To be safe I would go with a system that is already certified instead of chancing it. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Dawn DiPietro wrote: Rick, Does that mean we can take a 532 board and a cm9 and use it elsewhere and consider it certified ? No. You would have to use the exact same parts to be considered legal from the antenna to the power supply. This would mean you would have to get the manufacturer of all these parts in the trango system. If you took this approach you would be taking on the responsibility to make sure this really a was certified system. I assume you read the FAQ that Jack Unger setup to answer these questions about certification. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
Mike, This is a great list. There's always drama when there are people involved. The private list is much better. Join wispa and take advantage of that. As for what's happening here, it happens from time to time. Usually dies off or we squish it once it's gone on till there's absolutely nothing new to say. Right now, I'm trying to educate people on the realities of CALEA and some of the other things WISPA is doing and wants to do when there is enough help and time. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? I joined this list last week and already consider leaving due to the drama. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:07 PM Subject: [WISPA] Posting limits? Is anyone else getting tired of sorting through the exhaustive amount of email we are getting on the public list? Much of it is good stuff but I think we see some people who are posting more than we need to all see. I am thinking we should consider a post count limit per day per person. I would like to hear feedback on this concept. Maybe a max of 5 posts per day? I think if we do this we might see the message count drop to a slightly lower amount and I personally think this would be good. The WISPA public list is becoming too much for me to digest each day. Just wondering what the rest of you think. Before someone jumps on this and finds that I have regularly posted more than this let me tell you that I already know this. I am going to try to self-regulate from now on whether the group agrees with this concept or not. If a post count per day limit is too limiting to everyone then perhaps we need to consider splitting up list subject matter into multiple lists and allowing people to be members on lists of varying themes. This public list is just becoming too large I think. Thoughts? Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
Cool! That's more than I stared with! We'll hit 425 by the end of the year. More than that if the growth doesn't slow down a little. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? I wish I had 30. ;-) 11 paying customers here. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Mike Hammett wrote: I joined this list last week and already consider leaving due to the drama. It may feel a little like drama Mike, but calea is important and some people have very strong feelings one way or the other. It's good to see opinions, Ed saying he has 30 subs and will be out of business is informative and compelling. Some of us have operations that can carry the weight of the calea burden and others don't. Sometimes we all forget about the other guys circumstances. So dialogue is good. It's the ranting that gets old. Information is good, the more the better. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
With 11 customers I HIGHLY suggest you get a part time job. Something flexible if you can. Taking that financial stress off will help you do a much better job. I drove tractor, did consulting, speaking, equipment sales, wrote articles etc. Whatever I could to make extra money. If I'd not have done those things, I'd have failed in this business for sure. Costs were too high and I had too much debt stacked up. And my wife works part time half the year so she's not a lot of help in feeding the family. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? I will admit that I have a lot of potential, but potential doesn't mean dollars now. More than once I've looked at finding a part time job (again) so I have some money to invest in my operations. I need more equipment. I need more marketing. I need developers. I have no or little money to pay for the above. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Yeah, but you have all kinds of things going on. I see you on all the various lists looking for everything from fiber paths to long distance.. Heck, one of these days, I may even buy something from you. George Mike Hammett wrote: I wish I had 30. ;-) 11 paying customers here. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Mike Hammett wrote: I joined this list last week and already consider leaving due to the drama. It may feel a little like drama Mike, but calea is important and some people have very strong feelings one way or the other. It's good to see opinions, Ed saying he has 30 subs and will be out of business is informative and compelling. Some of us have operations that can carry the weight of the calea burden and others don't. Sometimes we all forget about the other guys circumstances. So dialogue is good. It's the ranting that gets old. Information is good, the more the better. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
- Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need. So the deadline is no more? I read it. There will be no exemptions and there will be extensions. I read the rules, published by the FCC. So, did they lie, or has there been an update nobody's been told about? Nope. I'll have to hire Butch to help me out. Probably Mike too. But those two things won't cost all that much. It'll just be some programing on devices I already own. Not much worse than what I do when I need some router or server work done now. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Nope. I honestly don't understand why you want to pile all of this stress upon yourself. Those of us that are EMBEDDED in the problem aren't as worried as you are. If it were really as bad as you're making this out to be we, of all people, should be ready to put a bullet in our heads. That's because you have money and credit and don't really care about doing the right thing, vis a vis federal mandates. Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts. I'd be a lot more at ease if WISPA was going to stand up for the industry. You don't need a TTP. Only if you're so well educated in networking that you can use the VERY geeky tools out there to rip the data and headers apart and put it all back together in the form they demand it be provided in... with perfect accuracy. Nope. There are free tools out there to help and people that don't charge more than OPEC to help you out. But you can't point to a single one of them, and you have no idea how to make my network compliant. Not a clue. This is why I find this it's no big deal' so amazingly frustrating. What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to you. Of course. Since most of us can't do that, we HAVE to have third party something, be it software or hardware or services. Nope. That'll be the easiest but it's not a requirement. Marlon, either come out and state you think the requirements are just loose guidelines, or start admitting we're all clueless. But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help :-) Sure. Send over 10 grand. That might do the job. You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a decent understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical experience, and not even any theoretical education on how its done. Nope. It just means you have to keep something called a HASH file. Whatever that is. The hash is nothing more than a key file to assure a file is unchanged. It has nothing to do with the things I mentioned above. You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not follow *a* standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If you follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the standard. In other words, if you don't follow a standard then you're totally screwed, unless you have one of those brilliant geniuses on staff who can do anything. Well, certainly following a standard is going to make things cheaper and easier on us. But hey, that's part of why people should support WISPA. We're putting forth the effort to be able to develop a standard aimed right at our industry. Cool huh!?!?!?!?! Not really. It wont' help me any. CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable. Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil, solvents, brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just dumping it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes Sure. We BURNED IT. Got useful heat from it. And put lots of nice heavy metals in the air. Nice. grin Huh? You burned your antifreeze? Greasy rags? Solvent? Right. You did not ask about antifreeze or greasy rags.Our rags came from a laundry service.We didn't have any antifreeze to deal with. transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for making this a better country. No shame in that. NOT AT ALL. It is NOT reasonable to expect the vast majority of the operators to be able to do ANY of this, from the 24/7/365 phone answering to the deep technical knowledge, to the redesign of networks to the incredibly expensive TTP's.
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
Really? um, exactly WHO do you call when your upstream goes down? As ours did with a major fiber cut a couple of weeks ago? We're ALREADY, ALWAYS dependant on others. Teamwork! marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Except in Marlon's case that user will NEVER be on your own network. Roaming is the exception not the norm with cell companies. Personally I think a better solution (if you absolutely don't want to just put up your own towers) is to just refer the customer to the other provider and hope they do the same in the future. Honestly, in Marlon's model, you aren't any different than just reselling DSL or Cable service. You don't have control of the network and you don't have control of the user's radio and/or router. And calling the other WISP's cell phone when a customer is down does NOT scale... especially to the levels Marlon is hoping to be at one day. Travis Microserv Mike Hammett wrote: Roaming is the exact same thing as Marlon does, which is what we're talking about. You collect the revenues from the user, but the user is on someone else's equipment. You pay the other network for the use of it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeromie Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Roaming is not the same as sending the Client Account to the other company. On 4/29/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's called roaming. It happens with everyone but Nextel. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Marlon, Your comment that I was short sighted because I don't turn potential customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted because I don't share networks and customers with competition is asinine. You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when they sell, etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning customers over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an area. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other than the lease on that building, I've never walked away from a single bill. Even when many I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business with. 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with 30,000 or 300,000 subs. THAT's where *I* want to be. Actually, I want that $10,000,000 cash payment for my company. grin. Look again, at the original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that used to exist. Or the ones that had the cable companies etc. Why were those sales so valuable? I believe because of cooperation and standardization. Make it as cheap and easy to take over your operations as it can be. BTW, 1% per year in growth? Plus a 10% drop in costs? That's nice. Our gross sales have increased by 15 to 16% per year for the last three years. We're still not advertising either. And
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
Marlon, I just joined this list and agree with your recommendations to supplment with a part time job. Prior to my current position, I worked at a winery on swing shift from 4 pm to 12 midnite and did my consulting work in the day time. Whew. And later I got hired by a big company in fixed wireless infrastructure with one of the larger manufacturers. By the way, I had a chance to visit Ehprata Washington when I visited the Grant County PUD folks. Very nice up there. I am originally from the rural area of Kings River, California, near the Kings Canyon National Park Hwy 180 Sierra Foothills. Worked for the US Forest Service, PGE in Power Distribution and Energy Conservation, Chevron in clean diesals, and now involved in RF networks wireless. We used wirleess in power distribution for our SCADA networks albeit in narrowband. Broadband provides interesting opportunities for the enterprise. The rural areas of San Joaquin Valley still searching for wireless. One of my friends is putting up a system. Using his own money. I always thought a lease program is ideal for wireless because of the change in generation of equipment. For example, Canopy is now Canopy Advantage. And other manufacturers are going to new generation. Good luck to you all here on this list. I am also involved in WiMax (or I should say pre-WiMax). Felix Lopez --- Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With 11 customers I HIGHLY suggest you get a part time job. Something flexible if you can. Taking that financial stress off will help you do a much better job. I drove tractor, did consulting, speaking, equipment sales, wrote articles etc. Whatever I could to make extra money. If I'd not have done those things, I'd have failed in this business for sure. Costs were too high and I had too much debt stacked up. And my wife works part time half the year so she's not a lot of help in feeding the family. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? I will admit that I have a lot of potential, but potential doesn't mean dollars now. More than once I've looked at finding a part time job (again) so I have some money to invest in my operations. I need more equipment. I need more marketing. I need developers. I have no or little money to pay for the above. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Yeah, but you have all kinds of things going on. I see you on all the various lists looking for everything from fiber paths to long distance.. Heck, one of these days, I may even buy something from you. George Mike Hammett wrote: I wish I had 30. ;-) 11 paying customers here. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Mike Hammett wrote: I joined this list last week and already consider leaving due to the drama. It may feel a little like drama Mike, but calea is important and some people have very strong feelings one way or the other. It's good to see opinions, Ed saying he has 30 subs and will be out of business is informative and compelling. Some of us have operations that can carry the weight of the calea burden and others don't. Sometimes we all forget about the other guys circumstances. So dialogue is good. It's the ranting that gets old. Information is good, the more the better. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
I'm calling Qwest, ATT or Level3. Places that have senior level BGP techs on staff 24x7. With a full SLA in place for outages. Not some guys cell phone. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Really? um, exactly WHO do you call when your upstream goes down? As ours did with a major fiber cut a couple of weeks ago? We're ALREADY, ALWAYS dependant on others. Teamwork! marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Except in Marlon's case that user will NEVER be on your own network. Roaming is the exception not the norm with cell companies. Personally I think a better solution (if you absolutely don't want to just put up your own towers) is to just refer the customer to the other provider and hope they do the same in the future. Honestly, in Marlon's model, you aren't any different than just reselling DSL or Cable service. You don't have control of the network and you don't have control of the user's radio and/or router. And calling the other WISP's cell phone when a customer is down does NOT scale... especially to the levels Marlon is hoping to be at one day. Travis Microserv Mike Hammett wrote: Roaming is the exact same thing as Marlon does, which is what we're talking about. You collect the revenues from the user, but the user is on someone else's equipment. You pay the other network for the use of it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeromie Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Roaming is not the same as sending the Client Account to the other company. On 4/29/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's called roaming. It happens with everyone but Nextel. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Marlon, Your comment that I was short sighted because I don't turn potential customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted because I don't share networks and customers with competition is asinine. You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when they sell, etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning customers over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an area. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other than the lease on that building, I've never walked away from a single bill. Even when many I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business with. 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with 30,000 or 300,000 subs. THAT's where *I* want to be. Actually, I want that $10,000,000 cash payment for my company. grin. Look again, at the original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that used to exist. Or the ones that had the cable companies etc. Why were those sales so valuable? I believe because of cooperation and standardization. Make it as cheap and easy to take over your operations as
Re: [WISPA] was School WiFi , about technical values.
See comment inline, near end of post. Mark Koskenmaki wrote: - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Dawn DiPietro wrote: Mike, If you think you are under the radar you are sorely mistaken. You admitted on a public list that gear you use is not certified. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Yeah, but your over the limit! :) Heck why go after a 3000 little guys when you can go after one big guy. They've been selling unlicensed amplifiers and uncertified systems for as long as I can remember. Heck, talk about posting a message on this list, what about having a full blown catalog online advertizing US sales with prices next to them? I believe they should have spent the 3 or 4 g's to get the systems they sell certified before they sold them. They make millions easily selling uncertified gear and it's not a secret. Ohh, I feel another rant coming on.. .George, you better take a chill pill :) While this is a peripheral issue with certification, I have made suggestions to the FCC about certification of individual components.I kinda doubt it's going to happen. At least not soon, regulators are notorious for not liking change, since it makes things less tidy for them. I buy computer components... motherboad, processors, video cards, and so on... And tires, and car parts, and actually quite a few other things that have technical performance reviews by people who have tested things. I WISH that manufacturers could certify components, because then we'd have published real-wolrd performance graphs and charts to use for comparison when we buy things. Just certified really isn't good enough in my view. I recall that a good number of years ago, there was a hack for a linksys AP that turned up the power. Someone used an SA on it and found that when you did it, the output became incredibly dirty. Certified or not, I would like to know that what I buy is clean rf-wise. Low OOB emissions. Minimal out of channel emissions, selective recievers that reject adjacent channel noise. Really comparable specs for dealing with noise and S/N ratios, etc. I really dislike not knowing those things about what I buy. And, due to the way certification works, certification has almost no meaning when it comes to those important RF characteristics.Early on in my investigating the wireless business, lots of people were testing new products and publishing the results. I dont' see ANY of that going on anymore. Wrong. Certification DOES test for out of band emissions; it also tests for out of channel emissions. It does not test for receiver selectivity because that is not a characteristic that will mess up the band. Part 15 certification deals primarily with dirty transmitted signals, not poor receivers. jack Any suggestions to motivate manufacturers? -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting FCC Part 15 Certification Assistance for Wireless Service Providers Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
- Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need. So the deadline is no more? I read it. There will be no exemptions and there will be extensions. I read the rules, published by the FCC. So, did they lie, or has there been an update nobody's been told about? No changes. I'm saying that you don't have to follow a standard to be compliant! Nope. I'll have to hire Butch to help me out. Probably Mike too. But those two things won't cost all that much. It'll just be some programing on devices I already own. Not much worse than what I do when I need some router or server work done now. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Nope. I honestly don't understand why you want to pile all of this stress upon yourself. Those of us that are EMBEDDED in the problem aren't as worried as you are. If it were really as bad as you're making this out to be we, of all people, should be ready to put a bullet in our heads. That's because you have money and credit and don't really care about doing the right thing, vis a vis federal mandates. roflmao. Oh boy, do you have me pegged wrong! I happen to think that CALEA is a PERFECTLY reasonable request. And I happen to think it's got pretty good safeguards in place. After all, they have to go through me to get to my customers. *I'm* the only one in a possition to be able to snoop on my customers via my network. And I know *I'm* not gonna do that. Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts. I'd be a lot more at ease if WISPA was going to stand up for the industry. Mark, do you not believe that that horse isn't already dead? There's nothing left to stand for. And honestly, CALEA is about as unreasonable as requiring that people all drive on the right hand side of the road. You don't need a TTP. Only if you're so well educated in networking that you can use the VERY geeky tools out there to rip the data and headers apart and put it all back together in the form they demand it be provided in... with perfect accuracy. Nope. There are free tools out there to help and people that don't charge more than OPEC to help you out. But you can't point to a single one of them, and you have no idea how to make my network compliant. Not a clue. This is why I find this it's no big deal' so amazingly frustrating. OK, clue me in on how YOUR network is going to be so impossible to make compliant. We have some very smart people on the CALEA list, we also have the ear of the FBI. I'll bet we can find a way that you can afford and make your network compliant. Or don't you want to fix this problem? I know a gal that is always sick. She won't got to the doctor so that she can get better. She prefers to be sick. That's the way she gets attention. Staying sick. She NEEDS to be sick. I don't think you are like that though.?.?.? What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to you. Of course. Since most of us can't do that, we HAVE to have third party something, be it software or hardware or services. Nope. That'll be the easiest but it's not a requirement. Marlon, either come out and state you think the requirements are just loose guidelines, or start admitting we're all clueless. Neither one. The requirements are pretty specific. But HOW you get to that point has been left up to you. They just want the data. The way you get it to them really is pretty loose. I know you don't think that, but it's true. I ALMOST disbanded the CALEA committee. There, for the first time, I've said it. We need to do this though. Not because no one else can, but because no one else HAS. But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help :-) Sure. Send over 10 grand. That might do the job See, there ya go. Where did you get that number? Oh yeah, from a mailing list that was talking about companies profiteering via our ignorance. It's not $10k it's $100k! You must have missed that memo. grin Mark, ASK Bearhill, Imagestream, Mike E etc. See if they'll give you a quote for your network. Then tell the rest of us so we can all either start sweating more or relax a bit. thanks \ You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity
Re: [WISPA] Posting limits?
Welcome Felix! Sounds like you've been around the block a time or two. Very cool. Did you know that there is an associate WISPA membership level? It allows you to be involved, sit on the board etc. I hope you'll be more involved here. I think that many of the issues that affect us are likely to also affect the SCADA folks these days. PLEASE tell me that you didn't do like the SCADA goofballs here in Odessa and put omni antennas at every site! Even the ones that only see ONE other site. I'm gonna have to work a LOT harder than I should have if I ever put in 900mhz. Hell, I already have gear at half of their sites, they should have just used my wireless system to do the SCADA collections. Our uptime is very very good. All they ended up with is a bunch of money to overbuild an existing network! laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Felix A. Lopez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Marlon, I just joined this list and agree with your recommendations to supplment with a part time job. Prior to my current position, I worked at a winery on swing shift from 4 pm to 12 midnite and did my consulting work in the day time. Whew. And later I got hired by a big company in fixed wireless infrastructure with one of the larger manufacturers. By the way, I had a chance to visit Ehprata Washington when I visited the Grant County PUD folks. Very nice up there. I am originally from the rural area of Kings River, California, near the Kings Canyon National Park Hwy 180 Sierra Foothills. Worked for the US Forest Service, PGE in Power Distribution and Energy Conservation, Chevron in clean diesals, and now involved in RF networks wireless. We used wirleess in power distribution for our SCADA networks albeit in narrowband. Broadband provides interesting opportunities for the enterprise. The rural areas of San Joaquin Valley still searching for wireless. One of my friends is putting up a system. Using his own money. I always thought a lease program is ideal for wireless because of the change in generation of equipment. For example, Canopy is now Canopy Advantage. And other manufacturers are going to new generation. Good luck to you all here on this list. I am also involved in WiMax (or I should say pre-WiMax). Felix Lopez --- Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With 11 customers I HIGHLY suggest you get a part time job. Something flexible if you can. Taking that financial stress off will help you do a much better job. I drove tractor, did consulting, speaking, equipment sales, wrote articles etc. Whatever I could to make extra money. If I'd not have done those things, I'd have failed in this business for sure. Costs were too high and I had too much debt stacked up. And my wife works part time half the year so she's not a lot of help in feeding the family. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? I will admit that I have a lot of potential, but potential doesn't mean dollars now. More than once I've looked at finding a part time job (again) so I have some money to invest in my operations. I need more equipment. I need more marketing. I need developers. I have no or little money to pay for the above. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Yeah, but you have all kinds of things going on. I see you on all the various lists looking for everything from fiber paths to long distance.. Heck, one of these days, I may even buy something from you. George Mike Hammett wrote: I wish I had 30. ;-) 11 paying customers here. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Posting limits? Mike Hammett wrote: I joined this list last week and already consider leaving due to the drama. It may feel a little like drama Mike, but calea is important and some people have very strong feelings one way or the other. It's good to see opinions, Ed saying he has 30 subs and will be out of business is informative and compelling. Some of us have operations that can carry the weight of the calea burden and others don't. Sometimes we all forget about the other guys circumstances. So dialogue is good. It's the ranting that gets old. Information is good, the more the better. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
Oh brother. Now you're just being obstinate Travis. I honestly thought you were smart enough to substitute the appropriate level technician for some guys on cell phone. What you just said is that most (all) of your peers, including your OWN techs, aren't as smart or as capable of running their own networks as the boys from Level3. Guess which part of my dialup network is usually the culprit when something goes down? Not my some guy on a cell phone gear. It's usually L3! 2 or 3 to one over the last couple of years. marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering I'm calling Qwest, ATT or Level3. Places that have senior level BGP techs on staff 24x7. With a full SLA in place for outages. Not some guys cell phone. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Really? um, exactly WHO do you call when your upstream goes down? As ours did with a major fiber cut a couple of weeks ago? We're ALREADY, ALWAYS dependant on others. Teamwork! marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Except in Marlon's case that user will NEVER be on your own network. Roaming is the exception not the norm with cell companies. Personally I think a better solution (if you absolutely don't want to just put up your own towers) is to just refer the customer to the other provider and hope they do the same in the future. Honestly, in Marlon's model, you aren't any different than just reselling DSL or Cable service. You don't have control of the network and you don't have control of the user's radio and/or router. And calling the other WISP's cell phone when a customer is down does NOT scale... especially to the levels Marlon is hoping to be at one day. Travis Microserv Mike Hammett wrote: Roaming is the exact same thing as Marlon does, which is what we're talking about. You collect the revenues from the user, but the user is on someone else's equipment. You pay the other network for the use of it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeromie Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Roaming is not the same as sending the Client Account to the other company. On 4/29/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's called roaming. It happens with everyone but Nextel. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering Marlon, Your comment that I was short sighted because I don't turn potential customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we have made some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted because I don't share networks and customers with competition is asinine. You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when they sell, etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning customers over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an area. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Travis, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying you don't have a good company. Clearly you do. I also think you're a bright guy. There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out companies. The biggest would be market size. My whole COUNTY has 10,000 people in it. Probably less than that by now. The next county over probably has less than 50,000. I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN away by a PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very rural area. I started my business as a copier sales and service company in '95 with no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank. It's fair to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when starting out. I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good business, but because no one else would do it here. In '98 I started the homebrew DSL thing, and in '99 I started the wireless. In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to only internet, we had a TON of debt. An ex service manager had spent a year setting up his own company and when he left me I lost 50%(!!!) of my revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big building etc. Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I needed due to the reduced business. Two... We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much a man of my word. I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of possible bankruptsy etc. We've been late sometimes but other
Re: [WISPA] was School WiFi , about technical values.
Jack - I would be interested in motivating the manufacturers. I work for a large manufacturer but plan to go to a smaller company becase I like working in focused delta team environment. But I can see how working with manufacturers can be helpful. Can you provide additional thoughts. Marlon - any suggestions on your part? Felix --- Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See comment inline, near end of post. Mark Koskenmaki wrote: - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] School WiFi / Wireless info ? Dawn DiPietro wrote: Mike, If you think you are under the radar you are sorely mistaken. You admitted on a public list that gear you use is not certified. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Yeah, but your over the limit! :) Heck why go after a 3000 little guys when you can go after one big guy. They've been selling unlicensed amplifiers and uncertified systems for as long as I can remember. Heck, talk about posting a message on this list, what about having a full blown catalog online advertizing US sales with prices next to them? I believe they should have spent the 3 or 4 g's to get the systems they sell certified before they sold them. They make millions easily selling uncertified gear and it's not a secret. Ohh, I feel another rant coming on.. .George, you better take a chill pill :) While this is a peripheral issue with certification, I have made suggestions to the FCC about certification of individual components.I kinda doubt it's going to happen. At least not soon, regulators are notorious for not liking change, since it makes things less tidy for them. I buy computer components... motherboad, processors, video cards, and so on... And tires, and car parts, and actually quite a few other things that have technical performance reviews by people who have tested things. I WISH that manufacturers could certify components, because then we'd have published real-wolrd performance graphs and charts to use for comparison when we buy things. Just certified really isn't good enough in my view. I recall that a good number of years ago, there was a hack for a linksys AP that turned up the power. Someone used an SA on it and found that when you did it, the output became incredibly dirty. Certified or not, I would like to know that what I buy is clean rf-wise. Low OOB emissions. Minimal out of channel emissions, selective recievers that reject adjacent channel noise. Really comparable specs for dealing with noise and S/N ratios, etc. I really dislike not knowing those things about what I buy. And, due to the way certification works, certification has almost no meaning when it comes to those important RF characteristics. Early on in my investigating the wireless business, lots of people were testing new products and publishing the results. I dont' see ANY of that going on anymore. Wrong. Certification DOES test for out of band emissions; it also tests for out of channel emissions. It does not test for receiver selectivity because that is not a characteristic that will mess up the band. Part 15 certification deals primarily with dirty transmitted signals, not poor receivers. jack Any suggestions to motivate manufacturers? -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting FCC Part 15 Certification Assistance for Wireless Service Providers Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] was School WiFi , about technical values.
Mark, Certification verifies that the signals conducted into the power line and the signals radiated into the air from a wireless system are clean and that they do not exceed the power limits. Minimizing self interference is primarily a function of good network design techniques. This is outside the scope of FCC certification because, even with certified equipment, it is easy for an uninformed person to deploy a network that interferes with itself and with other networks. To motivate manufacturers, let them know you want to buy only certified systems from them. jack Mark Koskenmaki wrote: - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] was School WiFi , about technical values. See comment inline, near end of post. Wrong. Certification DOES test for out of band emissions; it also tests for out of channel emissions. It does not test for receiver selectivity because that is not a characteristic that will mess up the band. Part 15 certification deals primarily with dirty transmitted signals, not poor receivers. jack Well, I should have been more clear. Yes, there are tests and certain limits. Just being good enough isn't what I was wanting. I'd like the best stuff, because doing so means you minimize self interference, etc. Any suggestions to motivate manufacturers? -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting FCC Part 15 Certification Assistance for Wireless Service Providers Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
- Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need. So the deadline is no more? I read it. There will be no exemptions and there will be extensions. I read the rules, published by the FCC. So, did they lie, or has there been an update nobody's been told about? No changes. I'm saying that you don't have to follow a standard to be compliant! Huh? You said we have as long as we need??? roflmao. Oh boy, do you have me pegged wrong! I happen to think that CALEA is a PERFECTLY reasonable request. And I Well, we could not disagree more. happen to think it's got pretty good safeguards in place. After all, they have to go through me to get to my customers. *I'm* the only one in a possition to be able to snoop on my customers via my network. And I know *I'm* not gonna do that. I don't want to be in the position of having to do that. Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts. I'd be a lot more at ease if WISPA was going to stand up for the industry. Mark, do you not believe that that horse isn't already dead? There's nothing left to stand for. Ok. If you say so. Then WISPA has no purpose. And honestly, CALEA is about as unreasonable as requiring that people all drive on the right hand side of the road. Sheesh. OK, clue me in on how YOUR network is going to be so impossible to make compliant. We have some very smart people on the CALEA list, we also have the ear of the FBI. I'll bet we can find a way that you can afford and make your network compliant. I've already told you. Or don't you want to fix this problem? I don't want my industry playing dead when it comes to injustice from Uncle Sam. Neither one. The requirements are pretty specific. But HOW you get to that point has been left up to you. They just want the data. The way you get it to them really is pretty loose. I know you don't think that, but it's true. Right. Somehow I'll bet that getting the specific data into the format required is beyond the technical understanding of MOST of us. I ALMOST disbanded the CALEA committee. There, for the first time, I've said it. We need to do this though. Not because no one else can, but because no one else HAS. But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help :-) Sure. Send over 10 grand. That might do the job See, there ya go. Where did you get that number? Oh yeah, from a mailing list that was talking about companies profiteering via our ignorance. It's not $10k it's $100k! You must have missed that memo. grin No, marlon. That's getting a building, some new backhaul eqipment, a router, and new site leases. THAT is what's required, Marlon.And that's all BEFORE I buy a TTP's service, or a box from someone, or any other such things. it's presuming that I can somehow muddle through the morass of stupidity on my own. Mark, ASK Bearhill, Imagestream, Mike E etc. See if they'll give you a quote for your network. Then tell the rest of us so we can all either start sweating more or relax a bit. thanks They have absolutely no clue what my network looks like, how the equipment it's built on works, or anything else relevant. And, no matter what their fee... I can't pay it. \ You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a decent understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical experience, and not even any theoretical education on how its done. Nope. It just means you have to keep something called a HASH file. Whatever that is. The hash is nothing more than a key file to assure a file is unchanged. It has nothing to do with the things I mentioned above. It's the hardest part of the process. At least as far as I can tell so far. no, it's not. It's a simple command line applicaiton that returns the hash for a file / files / all files in a dir, etc. It's just tht you're going to have to maintain the original raw data,
