RE: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Drew Lentz
The problem with OLSR, and it is even stated on the Wikipedia page, is that
when you push routing tables to every device, it creates a load on the
system. If you have a few nodes its not an issue, but when you are pushing
routing tables for 250+ nodes, you wanna make sure that the system can
handle that type of stress along with all of its other functions.



Drew Lentz
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 9:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

Here's a bit of info for you to check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimized_Link_State_Routing_protocol

Optimized Link State Routing protocol (OLSR) is a routing protocol that 
is optimised for mobile ad-hoc networks, sometimes called wireless mesh 
networks. It is a proactive link-state routing protocol that floods a 
full topology table to all nodes in the network which then compute 
optimal forwarding paths locally

I think Star has OLSR for their mesh


George Rogato wrote:
  From what I hear on the other forums, OLSR seems to be more stable on a 
 wireless network.
 
 
 
 Allen Marsalis wrote:
 Exactly my point George.  I don'/t...

 Allen


 At 09:16 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote:


 Allen Marsalis wrote:
 I'm just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or
 OSPF.

 OSLR
 -- 
 George Rogato

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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Clint Ricker
The OLSR wikipedia page doesn't do a very good job of analyzing the
strengths and weaknesses of OLSR.

The big problem with OLSR is that it's fairly new, immature, and not
widely used or supported (mainly open source roll your own solutions
and StarOS are the only ones that I know of off the top of my head
that use it).

Still, why it is attractive... (or could be if more common / standardized)

Yes, OLSR does push routing tables to all devices (as does OSPF and
BGP)...I call that a feature, not a flaw.  Link-state (ie OSPF and
BGP) protocols are much better than distant vector (ie RIP) simply
because routers will make much better decisions if they can see the
entire network at once instead of just what the next node is
reporting.  Sure, that does take more memory and CPU, but the
alternative is much worse...  There are some theoretical other
approaches, but nothing that, as far as I know, is more than a gleam
in the eye of some grad student.

The OLSR page failed to mention the main reason why OLSR is
theoretically attractive over OSPF--link state quality (there has been
some noise about adding this onto OSPF, but, it's largely just noise
at this point and nothing that one could really implement).

In other words, OLSR (technically via an extension) has the ability to
choose routes based not just on link speed, load, link state (is it up
or down), but also on how little packet loss is being experienced
across the link.  So, with OSPF, a 10Mb/s interface that is has no
packet loss will lose out to a 100Mb/s interface that has some
packet loss (as long as the packet loss doesn't down the interface
or is the result of load, which can also be calculated).  Which, is
great for wired connections, where you're dealing with very low bit
error rates and so forth.  One wired Ethernet link is, pretty much
100% of the time, pretty much identical to the next.  Wireless, of
course, does have a wider variance.  OLSR performs rudimentary packet
loss calculations across the links and takes this information into
account to give preference to good links over not so good links.

http://www.olsr.org/docs/README-Link-Quality.html is a good writeup on this...

OSPF is good for wireless if you are using very well engineered links
(think nice point to point connections).  So, if you are deploying
mesh simply as a way of getting some redundancy in a network, then
OSPF is definitely good.

For some situations, though, the point of doing wireless mesh is that
you make up for quality with quantity.  Mesh takes the concept that,
to some degree, multiple less than perfect links can, in aggregate,
be as reliable as one very solid link...so, if you're going block by
block in a city (for example), you may realize that some of your links
will be problematic, at best.  This is especially true among community
wireless networks where your links are based on volunteers, not on
design per-se.  If that is the reason why you are using a mesh
topology, then you would ideally need something that can differentiate
based not just on speed and state of a link, but also on the quality
of the connection of the link.  Still, it is important to note that
there are other problems associated with mesh that don't necessarily
have anything to do with a routing protocol per-se; relying on
multiple unreliable links to synthisize a reliable connection is
problematic on other levels, since, if your network topology changes
pretty frequently, you'll get packets coming in out of order and so
forth...



Clint Ricker
-Kentnis Technologies


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[WISPA] SCADA

2007-09-15 Thread Ray Jean
We operate access points off of three water tanks that are owned by a local 
utility district.They have aproached us asking if it is possible to use a 
broadband connection to replace the 900mhz radio links they use from each tower 
to their main office.Has anyone done this before or is it possible?We have 
limited knowledge of scada equipment but this would be a win win situation for 
both of us since it would eliminate their radio links and we would gain a 
customer. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ray Hill


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Re: [WISPA] SCADA

2007-09-15 Thread JohnnyO
contact Cliff Lebouf at www.cssla.com or www.triparish.net  They handle all 
of the data aquisition for the water district whose tanks they operate off 
of. Although Cliff has some medical issues, I am sure he's willing to share 
some of his information with you. He's a great guy so you can't fault him 
for his off-list behaviour.


JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Ray  Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:38 AM
Subject: [WISPA] SCADA


We operate access points off of three water tanks that are owned by a local 
utility district.They have aproached us asking if it is possible to use a 
broadband connection to replace the 900mhz radio links they use from each 
tower to their main office.Has anyone done this before or is it possible?We 
have limited knowledge of scada equipment but this would be a win win 
situation for both of us since it would eliminate their radio links and we 
would gain a customer. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks
Ray Hill


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Re: [WISPA] SCADA

2007-09-15 Thread Joe Miller
Most SCADA radios, are MDS 900 mhz radios. They are
connected via an RS232 connection. There are companies
that sell RS232 to ethernet adapters. That would be
the most cost effective way to do that. Blackbox is
one company that comes to mind right now.

www.dslbyair.com
--- Ray  Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 We operate access points off of three water tanks
 that are owned by a local utility district.They have
 aproached us asking if it is possible to use a
 broadband connection to replace the 900mhz radio
 links they use from each tower to their main
 office.Has anyone done this before or is it
 possible?We have limited knowledge of scada
 equipment but this would be a win win situation for
 both of us since it would eliminate their radio
 links and we would gain a customer. Any input would
 be appreciated.
 Thanks
 Ray Hill


 
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 August 31 **
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[WISPA] FCC Rule Changes Could Limit ISM Use By Wisps

2007-09-15 Thread Matt
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-117A1.pdf

See page 8 (para 19).


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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Tom DeReggi

Well, I disagree, in a hippocritical way..

What Meraki has done is package and make it painlessly easy and low cost for 
any joker in town to spend $100 a house and destroy the RF environement 
accross town, with noise generating Omnis, without a clue on the engineering 
that needs to go behind it.
The good news about the other common Mesh Boxes that were $4000 a shot 
(Moto, Tropo, etc) is it kept the MESH boxes in the hand of professionals 
(if you call Muni network guys- Professionals?)  Ventures like Meraki, scare 
the pants off me, regarding the health of this industry.
Locust MEsh on the other hand, is Open Source Software designed to empower 
developers to go to work to make MESH gear. Sure its OPEN, but the klearning 
curve is still there, detering individuals that did not have atleast a 
certain level of minimal technical competence.


With that said, I'll have to Buy and Try some of those Meraki's, I see all 
sorts of applications for them, that have now become affordable to try :-)

Could possibly save me tons of money.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Steve Stroh [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?



Carl:

Thanks :-) I rest my case.

Steve

On 9/14/07, Carl Shivers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We are using Meraki at a local ballpark, the zoo and a river walk area. 
The
ballpark has 1 gw node and 4 mesh nodes. The zoo has 1 gw and 1 mesh 
node.
The river walk area presently has 2 gw nodes and 8 mesh nodes. This will 
be

expanded to 3 gw nodes and 17 mesh nodes.

It is very easy to deploy using the Meraki system dashboard.

P.S. I am not a Meraki sales person.


--
Steve Stroh
Editor / Analyst, Stroh Publications LLC
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com


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Re: [WISPA] SCADA

2007-09-15 Thread Felix A. Lopez
Dear Ray: I worked with SCADA, substations, telemetry,
and wireless utility systems.  Joe is accurte that the
majority of utilities/districts use MDS radios.  You
many want to consider the new Motorola ACE3600 IP
based SCADA unit which has RS-232 connection, Ethernet
connnection, serial port, and other related connection
points.It is modular and connects to any wireless
or wired communications systems.  It is quite new. I
don't work at Motorola and therefore no benefit to me,
I work in the utility business.

Joe is correct that many utilities use the MDS radios.
 Please note that it is indeed possible to link your
points with a broadband connection. You will need to
identify the remote terminal unit (RTU) and its
communication interface (RS232, wires, etc).  I worked
on such a project and our team used Motorola Canopy
point to point Orthogon Backhaul for each point. To be
fair, there are many similar manufacturers suppliers
listed on this WISPA list that have similar
capabilities. My recommendation is that you should
consider running a link calculation (most suppliers
provide this service) to determine if there is any
interference in your links.  In other words, is it
Line of Sight, Non Line of Sight, and also your signal
to noise ratio.  Also, ask the water district
engineeer his expected data bandwidth needs.   In many
cases the utility SCADA systems are relatively small
packets of data.  The other point is whether or not
your water district engineer is using licensed
frequencies on the MDS radios.

Felix Lopez
Utilities and wireless practioneer
San Franscio Area

--- Joe Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Most SCADA radios, are MDS 900 mhz radios. They are
 connected via an RS232 connection. There are
 companies
 that sell RS232 to ethernet adapters. That would be
 the most cost effective way to do that. Blackbox is
 one company that comes to mind right now.
 
 www.dslbyair.com
 --- Ray  Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  We operate access points off of three water tanks
  that are owned by a local utility district.They
 have
  aproached us asking if it is possible to use a
  broadband connection to replace the 900mhz radio
  links they use from each tower to their main
  office.Has anyone done this before or is it
  possible?We have limited knowledge of scada
  equipment but this would be a win win situation
 for
  both of us since it would eliminate their radio
  links and we would gain a customer. Any input
 would
  be appreciated.
  Thanks
  Ray Hill
 


  
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  October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON **
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Tom DeReggi

Allen,

I was reading and agreeing with your insight until you asked... Otherwise, 
what exactly is your

problem with OSPF?

OSPF has proven to be pretty much worthless on any challenging wireless 
environment.  OSPF works simply on Up or Down state and Hops. None of these 
characteristics are measures of better performance or path, in Wireless 
netoworks. And it makes it worse in envornments where the state of a link 
has may vary drastically for short periods.  For example, a 100mbps link 
that perfect 99.9% of the time, but occassionally neighbors auto-scannin APs 
jump on your channel to create noise for short periods. OSPF may switch down 
to the backup 10mbps link, but what tells OSPF when it is BEST to switch 
back? There also becomes trade offs of trying to send 100mbps of data 
accross a 10mbps link, (depending on whether your users are UDP or TCP type 
traffic).  I don;t have the answer yet, but I can tell you it is not OSPF. 
OSLR is not just for last mile, its very possible that OLSR may be capable 
to scale for main backbone redunancy and routing. We don't know yet what we 
are doing...


Most likely, we'll be migrating to a combination of BGP, OSPF, OLSR, with 
OSPF only at the top level, jsut because the test of time reliabilty, and 
most of the top level links will be Licences and very stable. There is also 
an arguement that on the last mile, Optimized routing is not needed, in 
favor of redundant ring topology at Layer2.  Rings have always been used in 
the past for the primary Backbones both with Licensed wireless and Fiber. 
But I'd argue for a reversal in thought, and that Shortest Path Optimized 
Routing MESH is more appropriate for the Backbone, and the Ring more 
appropriate for the Last mile cluster of buildings served.


I think the WISP operator needsto be true to themselves that they can;t be 
everything to everybody. Designing for performance does nto necessarilly 
design for mobility. And designing for coverage (residential mesh) may very 
well destroythe possibilty of guaranteeing QOS for clients.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?



At 04:01 PM 9/14/2007, Japhy Bartlett wrote:


How come nobody seems to be using it?



The first Locustworld/meshbox/ultramesh deployment in the US was around 
2000 a few dozen miles north of me in Vivian LA, (Fastline?) I met with 
the owner last year.  Basically he was an WISP worth about $20-30k with 
debt of about $100k+  I really hated to see that..


The thing about mesh is this.  If all nodes are stationary  that is one 
thing.  (Muni-wifi nodes on lightpoles for example)  If all nodes are 
roaming/moving that is entirely another matter.  I am beginning to believe 
that no mesh (TCP/IP stack) is required if all notes are stationary like 
NOC's and NAP's and Telco Hotels on the Internet are stationary yet meshed 
using BGP (without locustworld or meraki)... Roaming in an entirely 
different matter.  But meshes come often hand in hand with roaming which 
is too much to swallow all at once if you ask me.  If it was easy to 
provide a multi-MBPS service with roaming cellphone technology, (roaming) 
they would have done it by now. EVDO sucks in my town.  Faster than 1xRTT 
but still very intermittent with dropped connections.


Imagine a fire truck racing across town roaming from WIFI AP to AP without 
braking his TCP/IP socket.  That is true mesh.  Many mesh protocols 
and/or solutions don't address this issue of roaming across subnets which 
can be a TCP/IP nightmare on very large networks such as muni wifi 
networks.


Building a network that cannot scale in size is like building a time bomb, 
or at the very least, painting yourself into a corner.  My point?  I'm 
just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or OSPF.  If 
your nodes move, then I gotcha, Use Meraki or whatever mesh protocol 
works..  Otherwise, what exactly is your problem with OSPF?  I'm just 
trying to learn more about meshing, and my comments are JMHO...


Allen




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RE: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread chris cooper
Id be interested to see how they worked with high gain directional
antennas.  With the proper antennas you could pick up some penetration,
help pick through noise and change polarities.  Anybody used the Meraki
boxes this way?

Chris 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

Well, I disagree, in a hippocritical way..

What Meraki has done is package and make it painlessly easy and low cost
for 
any joker in town to spend $100 a house and destroy the RF environement 
accross town, with noise generating Omnis, without a clue on the
engineering 
that needs to go behind it.
The good news about the other common Mesh Boxes that were $4000 a shot 
(Moto, Tropo, etc) is it kept the MESH boxes in the hand of
professionals 
(if you call Muni network guys- Professionals?)  Ventures like Meraki,
scare 
the pants off me, regarding the health of this industry.
Locust MEsh on the other hand, is Open Source Software designed to
empower 
developers to go to work to make MESH gear. Sure its OPEN, but the
klearning 
curve is still there, detering individuals that did not have atleast a 
certain level of minimal technical competence.

With that said, I'll have to Buy and Try some of those Meraki's, I see
all 
sorts of applications for them, that have now become affordable to try
:-)
Could possibly save me tons of money.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Steve Stroh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?


 Carl:

 Thanks :-) I rest my case.

 Steve

 On 9/14/07, Carl Shivers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 We are using Meraki at a local ballpark, the zoo and a river walk
area. 
 The
 ballpark has 1 gw node and 4 mesh nodes. The zoo has 1 gw and 1 mesh 
 node.
 The river walk area presently has 2 gw nodes and 8 mesh nodes. This
will 
 be
 expanded to 3 gw nodes and 17 mesh nodes.

 It is very easy to deploy using the Meraki system dashboard.

 P.S. I am not a Meraki sales person.

 -- 
 Steve Stroh
 Editor / Analyst, Stroh Publications LLC
 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com




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RE: [WISPA] SCADA

2007-09-15 Thread Cliff Leboeuf
Ray, 

JohnnyO is correct but ommitting specific details...

First -- We do provide the conduit for our water district to monitor and 
control their locations via our Internet service. If you want more details, 
contact me off list and I'll fill you in on what I know, and if needed, put you 
in contact with the consultant that arranged this solution with us.

Second -- JohnnyO, the medical issue you refer to has been confirmed to have 
originted with your wife. If she hasn't, make sure she goes to the doctor soon 
as I hate others to meet my similar fate. BTW, you may wanna see a doctor too! 
:)

- Cliff LeBoeuf 
- 985-879-3219 
- www.cssla.com 
- www.triparish.net



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of JohnnyO
Sent: Sat 9/15/2007 8:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] SCADA
 
contact Cliff Lebouf at www.cssla.com or www.triparish.net  They handle all 
of the data aquisition for the water district whose tanks they operate off 
of. Although Cliff has some medical issues, I am sure he's willing to share 
some of his information with you. He's a great guy so you can't fault him 
for his off-list behaviour.

JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Ray  Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:38 AM
Subject: [WISPA] SCADA


We operate access points off of three water tanks that are owned by a local 
utility district.They have aproached us asking if it is possible to use a 
broadband connection to replace the 900mhz radio links they use from each 
tower to their main office.Has anyone done this before or is it possible?We 
have limited knowledge of scada equipment but this would be a win win 
situation for both of us since it would eliminate their radio links and we 
would gain a customer. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ray Hill


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winmail.dat

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RE: [WISPA] SCADA

2007-09-15 Thread CHUCK PROFITO
Must be raining a lot down there
Any of you all cover D'ville, next to the SunShine bridge?

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-ACCESS, INC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Providing High Speed Broadband 
to Rural Central California


-Original Message-
From: Cliff Leboeuf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cliff
Leboeuf
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:00 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] SCADA


Ray, 

JohnnyO is correct but ommitting specific details...

First -- We do provide the conduit for our water district to monitor and
control their locations via our Internet service. If you want more details,
contact me off list and I'll fill you in on what I know, and if needed, put
you in contact with the consultant that arranged this solution with us.

Second -- JohnnyO, the medical issue you refer to has been confirmed to have
originted with your wife. If she hasn't, make sure she goes to the doctor
soon as I hate others to meet my similar fate. BTW, you may wanna see a
doctor too! :)

- Cliff LeBoeuf 
- 985-879-3219 
- www.cssla.com 
- www.triparish.net



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of JohnnyO
Sent: Sat 9/15/2007 8:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] SCADA
 
contact Cliff Lebouf at www.cssla.com or www.triparish.net  They handle all 
of the data aquisition for the water district whose tanks they operate off 
of. Although Cliff has some medical issues, I am sure he's willing to share 
some of his information with you. He's a great guy so you can't fault him 
for his off-list behaviour.

JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Ray  Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:38 AM
Subject: [WISPA] SCADA


We operate access points off of three water tanks that are owned by a local 
utility district.They have aproached us asking if it is possible to use a 
broadband connection to replace the 900mhz radio links they use from each 
tower to their main office.Has anyone done this before or is it possible?We 
have limited knowledge of scada equipment but this would be a win win 
situation for both of us since it would eliminate their radio links and we 
would gain a customer. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ray Hill



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] SCADA

2007-09-15 Thread JohnnyO
Cliff this isn't the list to go into specifics - Tell Marsha we've been 
found out !


JohnnyO

- Original Message - 
From: Cliff Leboeuf [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] SCADA


Ray,

JohnnyO is correct but ommitting specific details...

First -- We do provide the conduit for our water district to monitor and 
control their locations via our Internet service. If you want more details, 
contact me off list and I'll fill you in on what I know, and if needed, put 
you in contact with the consultant that arranged this solution with us.


Second -- JohnnyO, the medical issue you refer to has been confirmed to have 
originted with your wife. If she hasn't, make sure she goes to the doctor 
soon as I hate others to meet my similar fate. BTW, you may wanna see a 
doctor too! :)


- Cliff LeBoeuf
- 985-879-3219
- www.cssla.com
- www.triparish.net



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of JohnnyO
Sent: Sat 9/15/2007 8:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] SCADA

contact Cliff Lebouf at www.cssla.com or www.triparish.net  They handle all
of the data aquisition for the water district whose tanks they operate off
of. Although Cliff has some medical issues, I am sure he's willing to share
some of his information with you. He's a great guy so you can't fault him
for his off-list behaviour.

JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Ray  Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:38 AM
Subject: [WISPA] SCADA


We operate access points off of three water tanks that are owned by a local
utility district.They have aproached us asking if it is possible to use a
broadband connection to replace the 900mhz radio links they use from each
tower to their main office.Has anyone done this before or is it possible?We
have limited knowledge of scada equipment but this would be a win win
situation for both of us since it would eliminate their radio links and we
would gain a customer. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ray Hill


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Jack Unger

Clint,

Thank you for your very informative post about OLSR. It really helped me 
learn!


jack


Clint Ricker wrote:

The OLSR wikipedia page doesn't do a very good job of analyzing the
strengths and weaknesses of OLSR.

The big problem with OLSR is that it's fairly new, immature, and not
widely used or supported (mainly open source roll your own solutions
and StarOS are the only ones that I know of off the top of my head
that use it).

Still, why it is attractive... (or could be if more common / standardized)

Yes, OLSR does push routing tables to all devices (as does OSPF and
BGP)...I call that a feature, not a flaw.  Link-state (ie OSPF and
BGP) protocols are much better than distant vector (ie RIP) simply
because routers will make much better decisions if they can see the
entire network at once instead of just what the next node is
reporting.  Sure, that does take more memory and CPU, but the
alternative is much worse...  There are some theoretical other
approaches, but nothing that, as far as I know, is more than a gleam
in the eye of some grad student.

The OLSR page failed to mention the main reason why OLSR is
theoretically attractive over OSPF--link state quality (there has been
some noise about adding this onto OSPF, but, it's largely just noise
at this point and nothing that one could really implement).

In other words, OLSR (technically via an extension) has the ability to
choose routes based not just on link speed, load, link state (is it up
or down), but also on how little packet loss is being experienced
across the link.  So, with OSPF, a 10Mb/s interface that is has no
packet loss will lose out to a 100Mb/s interface that has some
packet loss (as long as the packet loss doesn't down the interface
or is the result of load, which can also be calculated).  Which, is
great for wired connections, where you're dealing with very low bit
error rates and so forth.  One wired Ethernet link is, pretty much
100% of the time, pretty much identical to the next.  Wireless, of
course, does have a wider variance.  OLSR performs rudimentary packet
loss calculations across the links and takes this information into
account to give preference to good links over not so good links.

http://www.olsr.org/docs/README-Link-Quality.html is a good writeup on this...

OSPF is good for wireless if you are using very well engineered links
(think nice point to point connections).  So, if you are deploying
mesh simply as a way of getting some redundancy in a network, then
OSPF is definitely good.

For some situations, though, the point of doing wireless mesh is that
you make up for quality with quantity.  Mesh takes the concept that,
to some degree, multiple less than perfect links can, in aggregate,
be as reliable as one very solid link...so, if you're going block by
block in a city (for example), you may realize that some of your links
will be problematic, at best.  This is especially true among community
wireless networks where your links are based on volunteers, not on
design per-se.  If that is the reason why you are using a mesh
topology, then you would ideally need something that can differentiate
based not just on speed and state of a link, but also on the quality
of the connection of the link.  Still, it is important to note that
there are other problems associated with mesh that don't necessarily
have anything to do with a routing protocol per-se; relying on
multiple unreliable links to synthisize a reliable connection is
problematic on other levels, since, if your network topology changes
pretty frequently, you'll get packets coming in out of order and so
forth...



Clint Ricker
-Kentnis Technologies


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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--
Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
FCC License # PG-12-25133
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs
True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers
Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com






** Join us at 

Re: [WISPA] FCC Rule Changes Could Limit ISM Use By Wisps

2007-09-15 Thread Jack Unger

Hi Matt,

On behalf of WISPA members, WISPA's FCC Committee filed comments on this 
NPRM with the FCC this past week.


Here's a link to them:  http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=89

Individual WISPs are also invited to file their own comments directly 
with the FCC.


jack


Matt wrote:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-117A1.pdf

See page 8 (para 19).


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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--
Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
FCC License # PG-12-25133
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs
True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers
Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com






** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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RE: [WISPA] - Anyone use Moto's Prizm?

2007-09-15 Thread Ron Garvin
I operate a Prizm software on a Dell 1850 box using RHEL 4. This box has a
3Ghz Xeon with 1Gig of RAM and Mirrored 73Gig drives. If I had to do it
again, I would put more memory in it, but this was built almost 2 years ago
now. The network has 30 AP's with 5 PTP links and over 450 SM's but it runs
fine unless the screen you are trying to display has a ton of elements on
it. The software is java after all :)

Ron Garvin

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Brenton
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 12:44 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] - Anyone use Moto's Prizm?

Hey gang,

Thanks for the advice about servers.
I'm working hard to get this thing lit up.

I'm wondering IF any of you have hands-on with Moto's Prizm
Server software?
I'm planning to run it under Red Hat Enterprize V4 - However
I have no feel for how strong a server I need to support it.
I'm having a helluva time finding real recommended minimum
hardware requirement.

The tech support guy I spoke to at Moto strongly discouraged
using AMD hardware, although I could not get a real reason for
that out of him. He fell back on Intel just works.

As I'm about as anti-WinTel a guy as you'll meet, I'm not
satisfied with that sort of answer.

Any thoughts? Comments? Yawns grin

Feel free to contact me off-list if that seems best.

Thanks loads,

-- 
Dave Brenton
General Manager
Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband, LLC

Bringing FAST InterNet to the Rest of Us! (sm)

3430 Highway 49
Dover TN  37058

931.232.0914 (office)
931.827.4181 (home)
931.627.1142 (cell - when not in cell-hell)

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Livin' on Central Stupid Time ('til October) 




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
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RE: [WISPA] SCADA

2007-09-15 Thread CHUCK PROFITO
Any body serve Donaldsonville LA, Ascension parish?

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-ACCESS, INC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Providing High Speed Broadband 
to Rural Central California


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:06 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] SCADA


Must be raining a lot down there
Any of you all cover D'ville, next to the SunShine bridge?

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-ACCESS, INC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Providing High Speed Broadband 
to Rural Central California


-Original Message-
From: Cliff Leboeuf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cliff
Leboeuf
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:00 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] SCADA


Ray, 

JohnnyO is correct but ommitting specific details...

First -- We do provide the conduit for our water district to monitor and
control their locations via our Internet service. If you want more details,
contact me off list and I'll fill you in on what I know, and if needed, put
you in contact with the consultant that arranged this solution with us.

Second -- JohnnyO, the medical issue you refer to has been confirmed to have
originted with your wife. If she hasn't, make sure she goes to the doctor
soon as I hate others to meet my similar fate. BTW, you may wanna see a
doctor too! :)

- Cliff LeBoeuf 
- 985-879-3219 
- www.cssla.com 
- www.triparish.net



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of JohnnyO
Sent: Sat 9/15/2007 8:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] SCADA
 
contact Cliff Lebouf at www.cssla.com or www.triparish.net  They handle all 
of the data aquisition for the water district whose tanks they operate off 
of. Although Cliff has some medical issues, I am sure he's willing to share 
some of his information with you. He's a great guy so you can't fault him 
for his off-list behaviour.

JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Ray  Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:38 AM
Subject: [WISPA] SCADA


We operate access points off of three water tanks that are owned by a local 
utility district.They have aproached us asking if it is possible to use a 
broadband connection to replace the 900mhz radio links they use from each 
tower to their main office.Has anyone done this before or is it possible?We 
have limited knowledge of scada equipment but this would be a win win 
situation for both of us since it would eliminate their radio links and we 
would gain a customer. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ray Hill



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ISPCON **
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Allen Marsalis

At 10:24 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote:

Optimized Link State Routing protocol (OLSR) is a routing protocol 
that is optimised for mobile ad-hoc networks, sometimes called 
wireless mesh networks. It is a proactive link-state routing 
protocol that floods a full topology table to all nodes in the 
network which then compute optimal forwarding paths locally


First I've never used OLSR so I know little about it.

However the key words here is mobile and ad-hoc.  In the 900 
mesh application I'm dreaming of, similar to muni-wifi, the nodes 
aren't mobile, nor are they ad-hoc.  The nodes are fixed to poles 
and buildings, and the nodes are infrastructure just like we always 
used. Also I don't plan on using any single radio systems requiring 
locustworld, etc.


Lets say a node can see two upstream nodes and two downstream 
nodes.  And then lets say one of the upstream nodes fails.  Not much 
thought needs to be given as to which is the most Optimal route to 
take.  i.e. The only other one.   Now for a zillion laptops floating 
around all over the place forming an adhoc network,  with nodes 
coming and going in a dynamic fashion, yeah I'm sure a specialized 
wireless mesh protocol is necessary such as locustworld, et al.. I 
believe somewhere around 30 or more mesh wireless (mobile) mesh 
protocols have been developed over the years each with it's own pros 
and cons.  I'm not thinking about anything mobile unless it is the 
users laptop roaming around his house and yard.  In that case, I 
don't think I need a mesh protocol at all, or anything other than 
common interior routing gateway protocols.  Am I right?  I wonder 
what Strix uses in their multi-radio systems?  eg


Allen



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Tom DeReggi
You are missing the point... How does the radio know which of the two links 
failed?
Most wireless failures deverally effecting a customer is not a Complete on 
or off state.
A protocol needs to know when to switch from a marginal link to a lesser 
marginal link, even if it just looks at the two first hop links connected to 
it.
Then there becomes the situation where if you have radio  a, b, c, d in-line 
and b and c are the two highest quality links, and the data would just ping 
pong back and forth between the two middle routers. Even the simplest 
networks benefit from a smarter protocol.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?



At 10:24 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote:

Optimized Link State Routing protocol (OLSR) is a routing protocol that is 
optimised for mobile ad-hoc networks, sometimes called wireless mesh 
networks. It is a proactive link-state routing protocol that floods a full 
topology table to all nodes in the network which then compute optimal 
forwarding paths locally


First I've never used OLSR so I know little about it.

However the key words here is mobile and ad-hoc.  In the 900 mesh 
application I'm dreaming of, similar to muni-wifi, the nodes aren't 
mobile, nor are they ad-hoc.  The nodes are fixed to poles and 
buildings, and the nodes are infrastructure just like we always used. Also 
I don't plan on using any single radio systems requiring locustworld, etc.


Lets say a node can see two upstream nodes and two downstream nodes.  And 
then lets say one of the upstream nodes fails.  Not much thought needs to 
be given as to which is the most Optimal route to take.  i.e. The only 
other one.   Now for a zillion laptops floating around all over the place 
forming an adhoc network,  with nodes coming and going in a dynamic 
fashion, yeah I'm sure a specialized wireless mesh protocol is necessary 
such as locustworld, et al.. I believe somewhere around 30 or more mesh 
wireless (mobile) mesh protocols have been developed over the years each 
with it's own pros and cons.  I'm not thinking about anything mobile 
unless it is the users laptop roaming around his house and yard.  In that 
case, I don't think I need a mesh protocol at all, or anything other 
than common interior routing gateway protocols.  Am I right?  I wonder 
what Strix uses in their multi-radio systems?  eg


Allen



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
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** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 
269.13.19/1008 - Release Date: 9/14/2007 8:59 AM







** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread George Rogato

Tom DeReggi wrote:
... How does the radio know which of the two 
links failed?


Not sure if you know tog, cw's son, but here's his wiki and helping hand 
concerning OLSR


http://staros.tog.net/wiki/OLSR


I think OLSR is getting more prominent among some wisps.

If your a wisp who bridges, it's no concern. But if your doing routed 
wireless networks, then OLSR may possibly be a replacement for OSPF.
I'm not the network admin, or any kind of admin, but we run ospf on our 
bsd routers and I recently seen where ospf failed, till we rebooted a box.



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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RE: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Allen Marsalis

At 09:39 AM 9/15/2007, chris cooper wrote:

Id be interested to see how they worked with high gain directional
antennas.  With the proper antennas you could pick up some penetration,
help pick through noise and change polarities.  Anybody used the Meraki
boxes this way?


Please follow my train of thought for a second.  When using 
directional antennas, then a bit of aiming is required right?.  But 
the benefits are as you say.  Now such antennas need to be mounted 
right?  So this is a fixed wireless mesh we are talking here, not a 
mobile mesh with antennas in motion. What makes this possible is 
multiple radio systems (3, 4, even 5 radios).  So given all this, 
how would Meraki provide anything that say Mikrotik couldn't 
do?  Choose paths?  There isn't much to choose when using directional 
antennas on each end (PtP)  You know what's there already, one radio, 
the other end of the link.  So it is just a matter of switching 
interfaces to a second interface when the best interface goes down 
(if ever).  OSPF is pretty good at that.  Not arguing, just curious 
about all that.  Also I'm brainstorming possible configurations with 
an omni on one end and a directional on the other.  I need a couple 
of good cheap directional 900MHz antennas for some testing.  I have 
two omni's already and wasn't too impressed going omni to 
omni.  Signal started to drop off after about a quarter mile  or so, 
and that isn't going to cut it.


Allen



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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RE: [WISPA] SCADA

2007-09-15 Thread Mac Dearman
These little puppies right here will put you where you need to be:

http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds1100.h
tml

Mac



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Joe Miller
 Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:46 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] SCADA
 
 Most SCADA radios, are MDS 900 mhz radios. They are
 connected via an RS232 connection. There are companies
 that sell RS232 to ethernet adapters. That would be
 the most cost effective way to do that. Blackbox is
 one company that comes to mind right now.
 
 www.dslbyair.com
 --- Ray  Jean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  We operate access points off of three water tanks
  that are owned by a local utility district.They have
  aproached us asking if it is possible to use a
  broadband connection to replace the 900mhz radio
  links they use from each tower to their main
  office.Has anyone done this before or is it
  possible?We have limited knowledge of scada
  equipment but this would be a win win situation for
  both of us since it would eliminate their radio
  links and we would gain a customer. Any input would
  be appreciated.
  Thanks
  Ray Hill
 
 ---
 -
 
  ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on
  October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON **
  ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA
  www.ispcon.com **
  ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
  ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until
  August 31 **
  ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online
  at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
 
 
 ---
 -
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 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007
 at ISPCON **
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 ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
 ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
 ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
 http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
 
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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