Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Drew, I once thought the world was full of rednecks and southern bells, until I got out of the southern United States a few times. As a matter of fact, I thought Vegas hung the moon! I am not sure where you hail from, but can you give us an idea of what your upstream cost are? That makes ALL the difference in our discussion! MY point is that even though I service very rural peeps, that they expect the same service that their kinfolk have in metro areas! IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! Now or NEVER unless there are some major undertakings! Not saying this will happen everywhere, but 3 Mb/s is the MOST anyone can buy at the moment, at $75/mth. And if you are deploying Fiber or some wireless technology that you can sustain streaming from for over 50 consumers at once at 2 MBps, we would love to hear about it and the statistics. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:26:16 -0600 The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now, how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year. I wasn't trying to say well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency space and put them up on the towers .. What I am getting at is that opening these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that WILL be there. For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try and operate in. The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65 or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate properly. All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad switching equipment .. well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!! Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that supports as you said high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks .. But that is today. With innovation in communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment or innovation will not exist in the future. -drew On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Drew, As I've mentioned before - wireless physics does not allow you to simply and affordably build your network for tomorrow but you do not yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless physics (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments that we have WiMAX in 3650 and future White Space and opportunities to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point out, watching bandwidth needs so you can know what's coming and plan accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models. The exact opposite happens - marketing plans fail because the technology (the real-world PHYSICAL behavior) does not obey the marketing plan. There's nothing personal here - the PHYSICAL reality calls the shots and it always wins. For example, it doesn't matter that I want (and General Motors marketing plan may call for) a safe, five-passenger car that goes 200 MPH all day and gets 100 MPG up and down an unpaved bicycle trail through the Colorado Rockies along with 100 other cars simultaneously and costs only $3000 to buy. You and I both recognize that in spite of the marketing plan, it just is not going to physically work. No company
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Obviously upstream costs vary depending on where you are located. That isn't the whole issue here. At the last wisp we built out, we were accessing dual DS-3s at 2 central points and distributing them via 155Mbps radios throughout 6000 square miles. We found the lowest cost upstream provider at the time (WilTel which is now Level3) and piped it to where we needed it. We spent the money on the front end to provide high bandwidth services to where we would need it in the future so that we didn't have to worry about existing infrastructure. Those pipes are now now starting to fill up (from what I understand, I am no longer at that company) and they are adding more capacity on existing tower sites. On the microwave side, solutions from companies like DragonWave, Ceragon, Nera, and Bridgewave give you tons of bandwidth availability. If you want to push hundreds of megabits of transfer, there are equipment solutions that are out there available to do so. I work with WISPs, carriers, private end-users, and agencies on a day to day basis that are upgrading their pipes today to get them in the lead tomorrow. Just because you are in a rural area (I hail from McAllen, TX on the US/Mexico border .. Pretty rural here too!) doesn't mean that you can't begin to provide the same types of service that are available in metro areas. Wok with your local fiber carriers, find out where their pops are, talk to them about tower co-location or dropping fiber to a nearby area to save on local loop charges, and shoot it to your NOC. There are a ton of different ways to skin this cat, and the equipment is there to help you do it. Some of it may be less expensive than you think too! -drew On 11/25/08 2:13 AM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Drew, I once thought the world was full of rednecks and southern bells, until I got out of the southern United States a few times. As a matter of fact, I thought Vegas hung the moon! I am not sure where you hail from, but can you give us an idea of what your upstream cost are? That makes ALL the difference in our discussion! MY point is that even though I service very rural peeps, that they expect the same service that their kinfolk have in metro areas! IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! Now or NEVER unless there are some major undertakings! Not saying this will happen everywhere, but 3 Mb/s is the MOST anyone can buy at the moment, at $75/mth. And if you are deploying Fiber or some wireless technology that you can sustain streaming from for over 50 consumers at once at 2 MBps, we would love to hear about it and the statistics. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:26:16 -0600 The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now, how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year. I wasn't trying to say well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency space and put them up on the towers .. What I am getting at is that opening these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that WILL be there. For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try and operate in. The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65 or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate properly. All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad switching equipment .. well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!! Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that supports as you said high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks .. But that is today. With innovation in communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz
[WISPA] Platypus guru needed
Hello We need a Platypus guru (sorta) for some remote help in configuring some options, We got Palt runnig for almost a year but we are not using the wombat feature for trouble ticket nor the web interface for customer care. We are looking for someone with experience in this to help us setup both features . Also, custom feature experience is a plus since we are looking to integrate Plat into our operation for provisioning purposes. Any up for the task, shoot me offlist with some background info and rate for services thanks all Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. Some of the reasons are mentioned above. I am sure other reasons exist. Personally, I don't agree with all the reasoning, but some of it I do. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy? Last time I checked with was roughly the same price. Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a "smack" against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not "new startups" or "smaller" (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. Some of the reasons are mentioned above. I am sure other reasons exist. Personally, I don't agree with all the reasoning, but some of it I do. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I just can't find it on peoples websites... Gino Villarini wrote: everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
What if your competitor isn't GPS sync'd? Or what if they want to do 80/20 on the down/uplink and we want to do 50/50? Travis Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: The very best reason to use canopy is because the competitors are using it. It can peacefully coexist with other systems due to gps sync. We are in very tight quarters with a fierce competitor in one very small market. But we never cause each other technical grief. What other product can give my customers 20.2 Mbps (including guaranteed 7 mS latency with 130 subs on an AP?) for $70/sub? - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I didn't say Trango... ;) Mikrotik AP's can be built for $400 including your choice of antenna (omni, sector, etc.). That's 1/3 the price of a Canopy AP, and it delivers twice the bandwidth in the same spectrum. So I can install three seperate AP's for the same price as one Canopy AP. Also, CPE's can be built for as little as $160 (we use a higher quality antenna, so we are closer to $180). Compare that with Canopy at $250ish (including PoE and dish). That doesn't even include all the other stuff you have to have with Canopy (GPS units, Prizm servers, etc.) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy? Last time I checked with was roughly the same price. Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
Mike Hammett wrote: Are the stations going to change the channels once they vacate their analog ones? I thought I heard that once. Hi Mike...Yes..whatever their digital channel is they will move to. I think in some cases there could be a double move. Somewhere on the FCC site is a list of pre and post transition channel allocations. Leon - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:09 PM To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. Thank You, Brian Webster WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
What's your longest link? I have a Mikrotik ptmp link shooting 23 miles and getting 10Mbps of actual throughput (on a 10mhz channel). Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you
Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool
Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All the stations were given an extra set of channels to fire up and operate the DTV transmitters. Mostly on UHF. This happened years ago and in this are we have been receiving a digital TV signal for about 8 years. Once the VHF analog transmitters are switched off, the broadcasters I know say they are going to convert the VHF transmitters to digital and fire up more content. Not sure if they get to keep the ownership of the channel or not. But the end result will be more free TV. Where I am I can get 24 channels of content (off of about 13 carriers). That will close to double. Pretty nice to be able to get 40+ channels for free. All stations are allocated one channel after the transition as in some cases a channel that is currently being used for analog could get reassigned a different digital station. leon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool I think some will but I'm not completely sure. Somewhere there is a DTV transition database on the FCC web site that may shed more light on the topic. Just haven't had the time to research all of that. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool Are the stations going to change the channels once they vacate their analog ones? I thought I heard that once. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:09 PM To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] Updated White Spaces mapping tool I have updated the White Spaces Google Earth Mapping tool to show ALL of the channels available for Fixed Wireless use. Please go to http://www.wirelessmapping.com/sample_maps.htm to download the latest version. There is also a second link to a file with the analog low power stations that may not convert to digital in February. It's a huge file and is only for reference. You will need to do some research on your own to determine if any particular station will remain on the air. Thank You, Brian Webster -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
never mind. The 400 series sounds great but at $2600 and ap and $600 for an su it's not for use residential providers. Brian Gino Villarini wrote: everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Canopy 100 and 200 started at those prices too. - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? never mind. The 400 series sounds great but at $2600 and ap and $600 for an su it's not for use residential providers. Brian Gino Villarini wrote: everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. Some of the reasons are mentioned above. I am sure other reasons exist. Personally, I don't agree with
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I didn't make the $70/20mbps claim. $70 represents 1/3rd of canopy's SM price. 20 mbps represents twice a canopy 200 download speed. The claim was 1/3rd the price and twice the speed was a better way to go. - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Doesn't the GPS sync only work if you have the exact same settings as the other systems? Which part is $70/sub? Is that 20.2 Mbps the new series, since they claim 21 mbit throughput? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:17 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? The very best reason to use canopy is because the competitors are using it. It can peacefully coexist with other systems due to gps sync. We are in very tight quarters with a fierce competitor in one very small market. But we never cause each other technical grief. What other product can give my customers 20.2 Mbps (including guaranteed 7 mS latency with 130 subs on an AP?) for $70/sub? - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha $23/meg. Dude, you suck! Out here I pay 250/meg at one location and $140 per at another. That's JUST the bw. Tack on hundreds more for the pipe and it gets ugly fast. Century Tel has 3000/512 DSL for $50 per month for businesses. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:13 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Drew, I once thought the world was full of rednecks and southern bells, until I got out of the southern United States a few times. As a matter of fact, I thought Vegas hung the moon! I am not sure where you hail from, but can you give us an idea of what your upstream cost are? That makes ALL the difference in our discussion! MY point is that even though I service very rural peeps, that they expect the same service that their kinfolk have in metro areas! IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! Now or NEVER unless there are some major undertakings! Not saying this will happen everywhere, but 3 Mb/s is the MOST anyone can buy at the moment, at $75/mth. And if you are deploying Fiber or some wireless technology that you can sustain streaming from for over 50 consumers at once at 2 MBps, we would love to hear about it and the statistics. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:26:16 -0600 The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now, how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year. I wasn't trying to say well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency space and put them up on the towers .. What I am getting at is that opening these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that WILL be there. For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try and operate in. The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65 or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate properly. All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad switching equipment .. well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!! Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that supports as you said high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks .. But that is today. With innovation in communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment or innovation will not exist in the future. -drew On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Drew, As I've mentioned before - wireless physics does not allow you to simply and affordably build your network for tomorrow but you do not yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless physics (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments that we have WiMAX in 3650 and future White Space and opportunities to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point out, watching bandwidth needs so you can know what's coming and plan accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models. The exact opposite happens - marketing plans fail because the technology (the real-world PHYSICAL behavior) does not obey the
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Yeah, I have had to change my mind on Motorola recently. They no longer seem to be pushing for licensed at every turn. No one ever said they didn't make great gear marlon - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. Some of the reasons are mentioned above. I am sure other reasons exist. Personally, I don't agree with all the reasoning, but some of it I do. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today!
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
He was saying 3 meg DSL is $75/month. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 8:58 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha $23/meg. Dude, you suck! Out here I pay 250/meg at one location and $140 per at another. That's JUST the bw. Tack on hundreds more for the pipe and it gets ugly fast. Century Tel has 3000/512 DSL for $50 per month for businesses. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:13 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Drew, I once thought the world was full of rednecks and southern bells, until I got out of the southern United States a few times. As a matter of fact, I thought Vegas hung the moon! I am not sure where you hail from, but can you give us an idea of what your upstream cost are? That makes ALL the difference in our discussion! MY point is that even though I service very rural peeps, that they expect the same service that their kinfolk have in metro areas! IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! Now or NEVER unless there are some major undertakings! Not saying this will happen everywhere, but 3 Mb/s is the MOST anyone can buy at the moment, at $75/mth. And if you are deploying Fiber or some wireless technology that you can sustain streaming from for over 50 consumers at once at 2 MBps, we would love to hear about it and the statistics. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:26:16 -0600 The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now, how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year. I wasn't trying to say well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency space and put them up on the towers .. What I am getting at is that opening these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that WILL be there. For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try and operate in. The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65 or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate properly. All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad switching equipment .. well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!! Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that supports as you said high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks .. But that is today. With innovation in communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment or innovation will not exist in the future. -drew On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Drew, As I've mentioned before - wireless physics does not allow you to simply and affordably build your network for tomorrow but you do not yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless physics (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments that we have WiMAX in 3650 and future White Space and opportunities to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a lot of customers without
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Their tech support is clueless when it comes to the Orthogon Spectras. I have 2 radios that are bad but when we tell them what we have they insist that we must trouble shoot the radio over the phone first. That would be OK except one unit is dead and won't light up and the other unit I keep getting told that the computer should be plugged directly into the back of the radio not into the POE. AUGH!! -B- BTW. Do they make those nice reflector kits for the new Canopy radios like the ones I sent you pictures of in NYC. LOL Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:04:52 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Yeah, I have had to change my mind on Motorola recently. They no longer seem to be pushing for licensed at every turn. No one ever said they didn't make great gear marlon - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
From the article... To help get its next downloading box into homes, Blockbuster is selling it as part of a $99 package that includes 25 on-demand rentals. After that, Blockbuster will charge at least $1.99 for each downloaded video. I sure wouldn't bite. 8.99/mo + Internet for unlimited or 1.99 + Internet per video. In four videos time you spent more money - I would have that covered in a day or two (and I'm sure I rank low on the TV watching scale). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:49 AM, CHUCK PROFITO [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Blockbuster just announced today that they are picking up the whip too. Bend over http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5itAj9wGKAKlyNH4dMOR-wJUMz6 5QD94LV4000http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5itAj9wGKAKlyNH4dMOR-wJUMz65QD94LV4000 Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu (CTI) Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Best practices tell you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for yesterday. Until the cold reality of cash flow and running a profitable business smacks you right in the face and then you're stuck trying to keep yesterday's network running as long as possible... -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Blockbuster just announced today that they are picking up the whip too. Bend over http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5itAj9wGKAKlyNH4dMOR-wJUMz6 5QD94LV4000 Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu (CTI) Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Best practices tell you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for yesterday. Until the cold reality of cash flow and running a profitable business smacks you right in the face and then you're stuck trying to keep yesterday's network running as long as possible... -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
One nice feature of this Blockbuster device is that it seems to download and store the video, so it doesn't rely on streaming. Also, I looked at their website and it seems like the good videos cost $3.99 (not 1.99). The videos did seem to be more recent than the ones Netflix offers. On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: From the article... To help get its next downloading box into homes, Blockbuster is selling it as part of a $99 package that includes 25 on-demand rentals. After that, Blockbuster will charge at least $1.99 for each downloaded video. I sure wouldn't bite. 8.99/mo + Internet for unlimited or 1.99 + Internet per video. In four videos time you spent more money - I would have that covered in a day or two (and I'm sure I rank low on the TV watching scale). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
With my consumer hat on I don't care if it is streaming or not really - they both of their small ups and downs. If I have to pay for storage it would bother me but I got the feeling they'll provide you with a unit that does the storage. With my WISP hat on I would prefer people to store the data as it could only cut down on bandwidth usage, of course. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:21 PM, John Valenti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One nice feature of this Blockbuster device is that it seems to download and store the video, so it doesn't rely on streaming. Also, I looked at their website and it seems like the good videos cost $3.99 (not 1.99). The videos did seem to be more recent than the ones Netflix offers. On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: From the article... To help get its next downloading box into homes, Blockbuster is selling it as part of a $99 package that includes 25 on-demand rentals. After that, Blockbuster will charge at least $1.99 for each downloaded video. I sure wouldn't bite. 8.99/mo + Internet for unlimited or 1.99 + Internet per video. In four videos time you spent more money - I would have that covered in a day or two (and I'm sure I rank low on the TV watching scale). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Depends... If they send a higher quality file because it doesn't need to be in real time, it could take more bandwidth. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information With my consumer hat on I don't care if it is streaming or not really - they both of their small ups and downs. If I have to pay for storage it would bother me but I got the feeling they'll provide you with a unit that does the storage. With my WISP hat on I would prefer people to store the data as it could only cut down on bandwidth usage, of course. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:21 PM, John Valenti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One nice feature of this Blockbuster device is that it seems to download and store the video, so it doesn't rely on streaming. Also, I looked at their website and it seems like the good videos cost $3.99 (not 1.99). The videos did seem to be more recent than the ones Netflix offers. On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: From the article... To help get its next downloading box into homes, Blockbuster is selling it as part of a $99 package that includes 25 on-demand rentals. After that, Blockbuster will charge at least $1.99 for each downloaded video. I sure wouldn't bite. 8.99/mo + Internet for unlimited or 1.99 + Internet per video. In four videos time you spent more money - I would have that covered in a day or two (and I'm sure I rank low on the TV watching scale). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Calea compliance contractors
Hi all- I'm just curious if anyone has a contact for someone that is a CALEA compliance contractor. Essentially we are looking for a third party that can verify compliance. Hit me offlist, please. Regards, -chris WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I couldn't imagine the product would be very popular if you had to wait for the download to finish (or a long buffer time). My thought was if it is downloaded once, it is never downloaded again. How many of us watch the same movie multiple times? I know several people that watch a movie and then will watch it with a friend shortly after (cutting the bandwidth in half in this situation). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Depends... If they send a higher quality file because it doesn't need to be in real time, it could take more bandwidth. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information With my consumer hat on I don't care if it is streaming or not really - they both of their small ups and downs. If I have to pay for storage it would bother me but I got the feeling they'll provide you with a unit that does the storage. With my WISP hat on I would prefer people to store the data as it could only cut down on bandwidth usage, of course. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:21 PM, John Valenti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One nice feature of this Blockbuster device is that it seems to download and store the video, so it doesn't rely on streaming. Also, I looked at their website and it seems like the good videos cost $3.99 (not 1.99). The videos did seem to be more recent than the ones Netflix offers. On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: From the article... To help get its next downloading box into homes, Blockbuster is selling it as part of a $99 package that includes 25 on-demand rentals. After that, Blockbuster will charge at least $1.99 for each downloaded video. I sure wouldn't bite. 8.99/mo + Internet for unlimited or 1.99 + Internet per video. In four videos time you spent more money - I would have that covered in a day or two (and I'm sure I rank low on the TV watching scale). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Calea compliance contractors
Hi Chris, Butch would be a good place to start. I've also cc'd the rest of the WISPA calea team. Maybe there are people on there that do things I don't know about. laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Christopher Orr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:42 AM Subject: [WISPA] Calea compliance contractors Hi all- I'm just curious if anyone has a contact for someone that is a CALEA compliance contractor. Essentially we are looking for a third party that can verify compliance. Hit me offlist, please. Regards, -chris WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Airmux-200
I am looking to get rid of our used and spare Airmux-200 radios. If anyone is looking for these please let me know! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Indoor Access Points
Josh https://www.demarctech.com/products/reliawave-rwr/rwr-hpg-i.htm We can work with WISPA members at $89.99 for any qty. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Indoor Access Points I am looking to see what other members use for indoor access points. Primarily I'm looking for a residential install and hotels. I've been using the Senao/Engenius equipment for quite a while but I have encountered several issues over the years and I am hoping to find a replacement low-cost product. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] WiMax handoff from 3.65 to 2.5
Copypasta from Dailywireless.org: Link to story: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Airspan-Succeeds-First-Ever-Multi/stor y.aspx?guid=%7B2AD0C2CD-055D-479A-9492-E835F5ABAF3A%7D Airspan Networks announced today that it has successfully demonstrated seamless, uninterrupted handover from one frequency band on a mobile WiMAX network to another frequency band (pdf). A handover provides seamless transfer from one base station to another without loss or interruption of service. As mobile WiMAX deployments become more common, users will benefit from the ability to transfer from one operating network to another. For instance, in the United States, a user with an Airspan MiMAX USB device connected to their laptop may be able to roam from a license-exempt 3.65 GHz network into a national, license-owned 2.5 GHz WiMAX network. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
That's not fair :-) I didn't know we were talking Mikrotik. Yes other systems will support the same bandwidth at 1/3 the cost using the same amount of spectrum... But you can't get 150 customers on those AP's, or the same carrier to noise ratio... etc. You get what you pay for (as much as I love Canopy I'll be the first one to admit that if I had my own personal WISP, I might not deploy Canopy everywhere unless I was big like Mesa was where you don't have to have quick ROI on every AP) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I didn't say Trango... ;) Mikrotik AP's can be built for $400 including your choice of antenna (omni, sector, etc.). That's 1/3 the price of a Canopy AP, and it delivers twice the bandwidth in the same spectrum. So I can install three seperate AP's for the same price as one Canopy AP. Also, CPE's can be built for as little as $160 (we use a higher quality antenna, so we are closer to $180). Compare that with Canopy at $250ish (including PoE and dish). That doesn't even include all the other stuff you have to have with Canopy (GPS units, Prizm servers, etc.) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy? Last time I checked with was roughly the same price. Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
The comment was twice the bandwidth for 1/3rd the cost. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? That's not fair :-) I didn't know we were talking Mikrotik. Yes other systems will support the same bandwidth at 1/3 the cost using the same amount of spectrum... But you can't get 150 customers on those AP's, or the same carrier to noise ratio... etc. You get what you pay for (as much as I love Canopy I'll be the first one to admit that if I had my own personal WISP, I might not deploy Canopy everywhere unless I was big like Mesa was where you don't have to have quick ROI on every AP) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I didn't say Trango... ;) Mikrotik AP's can be built for $400 including your choice of antenna (omni, sector, etc.). That's 1/3 the price of a Canopy AP, and it delivers twice the bandwidth in the same spectrum. So I can install three seperate AP's for the same price as one Canopy AP. Also, CPE's can be built for as little as $160 (we use a higher quality antenna, so we are closer to $180). Compare that with Canopy at $250ish (including PoE and dish). That doesn't even include all the other stuff you have to have with Canopy (GPS units, Prizm servers, etc.) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy? Last time I checked with was roughly the same price. Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
And that is still the case on a 20mhz channel, I can get 30Mbps of actual throughput on a Mikrotik AP that costs less than $400. Granted right now my biggest AP only has 50 customers, but we are going to push the limits and see how many we can actually handle (we are also only using 10mhz channel sizes). Travis Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: The comment was "twice" the bandwidth for 1/3rd the cost. - Original Message - From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? That's not fair :-) I didn't know we were talking Mikrotik. Yes other systems will support the same bandwidth at 1/3 the cost using the same amount of spectrum... But you can't get 150 customers on those AP's, or the same carrier to noise ratio... etc. You get what you pay for (as much as I love Canopy I'll be the first one to admit that if I had my own personal WISP, I might not deploy Canopy everywhere unless I was big like Mesa was where you don't have to have quick ROI on every AP) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I didn't say Trango... ;) Mikrotik AP's can be built for $400 including your choice of antenna (omni, sector, etc.). That's 1/3 the price of a Canopy AP, and it delivers twice the bandwidth in the same spectrum. So I can install three seperate AP's for the same price as one Canopy AP. Also, CPE's can be built for as little as $160 (we use a higher quality antenna, so we are closer to $180). Compare that with Canopy at $250ish (including PoE and dish). That doesn't even include all the other "stuff" you have to have with Canopy (GPS units, Prizm servers, etc.) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy? Last time I checked with was roughly the same price. Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: "Butch Evans" mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on the market: I don't
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I was charging high usage customers by the meg back in 1997 at the ISP I was GM of. The clients didnt mind as long as I capped it so there was not a huge surprise bill. I've always said it will end up that way just like most utilites. Anything that is unlimited is abused. Currently, with the ISP I own/operate, I am not charging for over usage but I'm close to implementing it. I could care less if the abusers go to the competition and beat them up. Really though, I think we are missing a piece due to the lack of organization. The telcos get fees for terminating calls. We should get something like that from Netflix, etc. - oops, wake me back up! -RickG On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have always had a per bit plan in place. Our speeds are as high as 10 meg on wireless and 100 on fiber. Yet our average user is down at 3 megs. Well, really below that as my tracking mechanism counts the servers and high end business users and it really shouldn't do that. We're still growing nicely and have lost very few customers due to usage issues over the years. Usually they are the ones that I really didn't want anyway. Sell one account and they build their own system that covers the entire neighborhood, watch TV online etc. I really feel for my competitors. We've certainly run off more than a few potential new customers because of our 6 gig limit. I'd love to see the bw and gig numbers for some of the other wisps in my area. I'll bet it's amazingly different. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now, how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year. I wasn't trying to say well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency space and put them up on the towers .. What I am getting at is that opening these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that WILL be there. For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try and operate in. The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65 or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate properly. All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad switching equipment .. well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!! Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that supports as you said high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks .. But that is today. With innovation in communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment or innovation will not exist in the future. -drew On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Drew, As I've mentioned before - wireless physics does not allow you to simply and affordably build your network for tomorrow but you do not yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless physics (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments that we have WiMAX in 3650 and future White Space and opportunities to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point out, watching bandwidth needs so you can know what's coming and plan accordingly is
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
trango and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Allthough that is true... Its also important to note Even today, with the other newer more updated options out there When I have a choice. And I need to guarantee the link will work the first trip onsite, and I need to rely on it Trango is still my first choice that I pull off the shelve to install. When the originial product of 8 years ago works so well, its hard for the manufacturer to justify changing it. Still to this day There is not another product on the market that can offer what Trango PtMP offers now from its yr 2000 design. Sure, we are all migrating to higher capacity gear options where we can but its not feasible or necessary everywhere. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Josh, I think this was the point. The Trango 5800 series (the 5830 radio) was the top of the line product when it first came out (2001 or 2002 I think). There was nothing else on the market (including Canopy) when Trango first started shipping this product. However, nothing has been done with it since then. They made two failed attempts, and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Travis Microserv Josh Luthman wrote: I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I used and loved Trango at the last WISP I owned/operated in West Palm. With my current operation, Tranzeo works well too and I'm starting to really enjoy MikroTik but nothing can replace my Trango! Maybe Ubiquiti. I 'm looking forward to the bullet. I hope it works well. Anyone get an early release? -RickG On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:51 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: trango and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Allthough that is true... Its also important to note Even today, with the other newer more updated options out there When I have a choice. And I need to guarantee the link will work the first trip onsite, and I need to rely on it Trango is still my first choice that I pull off the shelve to install. When the originial product of 8 years ago works so well, its hard for the manufacturer to justify changing it. Still to this day There is not another product on the market that can offer what Trango PtMP offers now from its yr 2000 design. Sure, we are all migrating to higher capacity gear options where we can but its not feasible or necessary everywhere. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Josh, I think this was the point. The Trango 5800 series (the 5830 radio) was the top of the line product when it first came out (2001 or 2002 I think). There was nothing else on the market (including Canopy) when Trango first started shipping this product. However, nothing has been done with it since then. They made two failed attempts, and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Travis Microserv Josh Luthman wrote: I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Truck roll: $50 MikroTik CPE: $200 Trango SU: $786 (as of Nov 26 2008 2AM) Repairing your Trango link without having to truck roll: *three times* the price of MikroTik and slow truck roll (no, not priceless - we live in a capitalist economy) Source: http://www.trangobroadband.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=M5830S-SU On a serious note - what issues were fixed remotely with Trango? The only issue that come to mind are bad radios and repointing dishes on those long 8 mile links after a wind storm. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP
[WISPA] Trango Apex
Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I thought I'd share my recent experience OK 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was expecting. And it just freakin Worked! WooHoo! Man, I like this radio. I specificaly liked the fact that the all outdoor unit, comes with 3 ports, 1 fiber, 1 GigE, 1 out-of-band managemnet, and supports inband management on the GigE. What I thought was unique was that either of the two Ethernet ports could be used to provide the POE power input. And also optionally can just run stanrdard Electrical wire to the Molex connector instead if prefer. But I was extremely impressed at the flexibilty in options to install this. The alignment LED is also awesome, that is positioned in a convenient place and shows actual RSSI DB number, as it really speeds up install and made it possible for one person to accurately align it. Also note... The older Giga had some anoying firmware bugs last year in their Betas (typical of Beta), and I finally got around to upgrading to the latest firmwares. (I was 9 months overdue for the task) Guess what... All the problems are FIXED!! Atleast the ones I knew about. I was really pleased. I have to say this product line is REALLY coming along nicely. Only thing I caution to be aware of is It takes a while to fully understand the relationship of how well your link is performing in relation to what the MSE value of the radio is. MSE is the equivellent of measurement of SNR and distortion. And the ATPC and Adaptive Modulation thresholds are based on specific MSEs reached. The MSE feature/meter works good and accurately, it was just an issue of understanding how to interperate it. I was also impreseed on how fast they associate when they are taking out of opmode and back on in opmode. Its super quick. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1803 - Release Date: 11/21/2008 9:37 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Rick, I got to get my hands on a couple of Bullets this past week. They work as expected with no real huge differences over the NS5s and PS5, operationally. I still prefer the PowerStations as clients personally because of the all in one package with a nice coupled antenna. I have still heard and seen problems with the SMA ext. connector on the NS5, so this definitely resolves that issue! I think it is a great idea and the price point is exceptional. I see it as more of an AP application when combined with sectorized antennas or as a CPE with high gain directionals. I didn't get to test the functionality of software (like the IPSEC VPN that was requested) but I did see the same type of patterns as with the other Ubiquiti AirOS platforms, for what its worth. These things are gonna be great. -drew On 11/26/08 12:48 AM, RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I used and loved Trango at the last WISP I owned/operated in West Palm. With my current operation, Tranzeo works well too and I'm starting to really enjoy MikroTik but nothing can replace my Trango! Maybe Ubiquiti. I 'm looking forward to the bullet. I hope it works well. Anyone get an early release? -RickG On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:51 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: trango and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Allthough that is true... Its also important to note Even today, with the other newer more updated options out there When I have a choice. And I need to guarantee the link will work the first trip onsite, and I need to rely on it Trango is still my first choice that I pull off the shelve to install. When the originial product of 8 years ago works so well, its hard for the manufacturer to justify changing it. Still to this day There is not another product on the market that can offer what Trango PtMP offers now from its yr 2000 design. Sure, we are all migrating to higher capacity gear options where we can but its not feasible or necessary everywhere. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Josh, I think this was the point. The Trango 5800 series (the 5830 radio) was the top of the line product when it first came out (2001 or 2002 I think). There was nothing else on the market (including Canopy) when Trango first started shipping this product. However, nothing has been done with it since then. They made two failed attempts, and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Travis Microserv Josh Luthman wrote: I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I'd argue... why are you buying a 5830SU? There are some rare cases its needed, for example to intergrate with a 32db long range dish. But we stopped using those long ago. The 5580 w/ behive antrenna outperforms the 5830, and sub $300. And the new DSS dish for the 5580, is really cool, with the new adjustments, to allow any direction alignment without scewing polarity. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 2:08 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Truck roll: $50 MikroTik CPE: $200 Trango SU: $786 (as of Nov 26 2008 2AM) Repairing your Trango link without having to truck roll: *three times* the price of MikroTik and slow truck roll (no, not priceless - we live in a capitalist economy) Source: http://www.trangobroadband.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=M5830S-SU On a serious note - what issues were fixed remotely with Trango? The only issue that come to mind are bad radios and repointing dishes on those long 8 mile links after a wind storm. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite)
