Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Steve Barnes
This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a who's who left to right. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From:

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread D. Ryan Spott
L-R Ryan, John, Alex, Jack and Stephen. ryan On Apr 5, 2010, at 5:41 AM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: This is a great report good job guys and thank you. Next question. I don't know any of the team personally just from your posts. The picture in the report, can you give us a

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
Awesome report! Thanks. Give me equipment capable of 20 watts, circularly polarized sectors, a turnstile antenna on the CPE, and it would be a perfect fit for THIS rural market. At that power level, and circular polarization, I could reuse any channel on the same tower using opposite circular

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Steve Barnes
Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable system. I mean in the VHF band of 54 Mhz to 88 Mhz the frequency is to slow to have any ability to clock the data through at any worth wile speed. We are supposed to be giving

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Dylan Bouterse
I second everybody else's enthusiasm and appreciation for the committee's efforts here. This is one of the primary reasons we are a WISPA member and I recommend annual we continue contributing to this group. Thanks again guys! Dylan -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
The bandwidth of the radio frequency channel is the major factor that determines the performance capabilities for data transmission and reception and not the actual radio frequency of the radio channel. There is no difference in the amount of data, or the data speeds that can be transmitted in

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread John Scrivner
I am not sure where you get your assumptions but they are not correct. Every television channel has available 6 MHz of bandwidth and can be modulated with the same amount of data regardless of where the channel resides in the VHF or UHF frequency bands. The limiting factor for these lowest VHF

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
Even assuming we would only have access to the lower VHF portion of the bands, a 6.3 dBi antenna is a simple, non-intrusive radiator. Commercial antennas are available now for 6 meters to give you an idea of sizes and get you thinking about what the maximum effort would be. The propagation on

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Ryan Spott
Hey Steve, I use the cable-cos as an example. They get 30Mbit/sec for 6Mhz. (at least using docsis) ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 6:55 AM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: Mike, though I agree that circular polarization could work. What channel width are you going to need to have a usable

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Tom DeReggi
A Couple questions. First, I would agree, any Whitespace spectrum is good spectrum for us, and better than none. But, why does the FCC keep hypothetically asking us what about VHF channels 1-x the lower part of the band? I think when we met with Blair, the lower portion of VHF also

[WISPA] dry copper solution

2010-04-05 Thread chris cooper
Im looking for a copper solution that will allow me to use a dry pair to extend service to a location @ 3 miles distant. Any pointers much appreciated. Thanks Chris Cooper Intelliwave WISPA Wants You! Join

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Harold Bledsoe
6MHz is a weird channel size for our industry traditionally but in 5MHz ~25Mbps aggregate would be comfortable. -Hal On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 07:39 -0700, Ryan Spott wrote: Hey Steve, I use the cable-cos as an example. They get 30Mbit/sec for 6Mhz. (at least using docsis) ryan On Mon,

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Ryan Spott
Wimax in 3.65 is 7MHz IIRC... ? With this sort of bandwidth, and the channel bonding ?that is possible? this could be a real game changer.. SD video streams top out at 1.5mbps, HD is between that at 8mbps (ESPN requires a CIR of 8mbps) Suddenly triple-play is available... with no wire. Expect

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
In-line ... A Couple questions. 3. Is there something wrong or more encombersome with Bands 1-X (7?), that we dont know about or do know about? We know the size of radiators in the lower portion would be greater. However, lower frequencies propagate better, and a half wave

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Randy Cosby
Tom, Could you give us a hint how we would find this info? Randy It might be a good idea for WISPs to look up their Whitechannel availabilty in their areas, and determine if VHF channels 1-7 are available in their territory or not. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed

Re: [WISPA] Pan flutes on the tower

2010-04-05 Thread Data Technology
I bet if you cap the ends it will quit whistling. I have the same problem on one of my towers. I have a 1.5 dia pipe as a standoff and it will make sounds when the wind blows. I was up there on a windy day once and I could put my hand over the top of the pipe and it would quit whistling. LaRoy

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Steve Barnes
(As the lights come on and the eyes brighten) OK so now I get it. The Carrier frequency and the bandwidth is just the pipe. What we need to worry about is the floor noise, the carrier we attach to and what compression technology we use on that carrier which determines the speed and throughput.

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Leon D. Zetekoff
On 4/5/2010 11:02 AM, Tom DeReggi wrote: A Couple questions. First, I would agree, any Whitespace spectrum is good spectrum for us, and better than none. But, why does the FCC keep hypothetically asking us what about VHF channels 1-x the lower part of the band? I think when we met

Re: [WISPA] Pan flutes on the tower

2010-04-05 Thread Josh Luthman
Makes sense. Just like when you blow over a bottle (root beer, beer, etc - the glass ones). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
Leon: Innovation will be key. Yes, a 6 meter vertical is large. But, what if you bent that quarter wave into an odd shape? Think fractals, cloverleafs, and other HORIZONATL elements. Comparing what we'd HAVE to use compared to a TV Yagi is apples to oranges. Besides, most TV antennas I have

Re: [WISPA] Pan flutes on the tower

2010-04-05 Thread Justin Wilson
Yeah wind does not blow at a constant rate so the tones will change. --- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net http://www.mtin.net/blog Wisp Consulting ­ Tower Climbing ­ Network Support From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 5 Apr

Re: [WISPA] Pan flutes on the tower

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
LaRoy: (and others) Thanks for your analysis and feedback. The more I look, listen and observe, the more I believe you guys have found the melodic culprit. When I put up the amateur antenna, a new backhaul was put up during the same time period. I built that mount with a 2 inch piece of

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Ryan Spott
Channel 2 (54-60 MHz) 102 259cm Channel 3 (60-66 MHz) 92 234cm Channel 4 (66-72 MHz) 83 211cm Channel 6 (82-88 MHz) 72 183cm A typical antenna for low-band VHF: http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/Y5-2-6.pdf from

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Leon D. Zetekoff
On 4/5/2010 12:18 PM, Mike wrote: Leon: Innovation will be key. Yes, a 6 meter vertical is large. But, what if you bent that quarter wave into an odd shape? Think fractals, cloverleafs, and other HORIZONATL elements. Comparing what we'd HAVE to use compared to a TV Yagi is apples to

Re: [WISPA] Pan flutes on the tower

2010-04-05 Thread Data Technology
Mike, The pvc standoff you have for the repeater antenna is mounted horizontally and the wind would have to blow just right in order for it to make any sound. I think the wind needs to blow across the opening close to 90 deg to create the sound. If you mounted the 2 in pipe vertically then I

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
Just for discussion, let's say a TV LPDA has a gain of 8 dBi. It will cover the entire VHF TV band, and by superimposing a UHF LPDA on the same mast, can cover the entire UHF TV band with similar gain figures. I'd make this challenge: I could TRY to hide a TV band LPDA on my property and beg

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike Hammett
I've driven this often, but ATPC should be on every device that engages in 2 way communications. Every... single... one. Don't tell me it's expensive to do, I can buy a new $10 cell phone out of contract that does it. Without proper ATPC, high power on low frequencies will travel forever in

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike Hammett
While it wouldn't need to cover the entire range, I'd expect at a most separate UHF and VHF antenna... otherwise you're way too specific and would need to stock too many different antenna models. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike Hammett
The transmit frequency has nothing to do with how much data you can send, it's the channel size. Channel 2 will move as much data as channel 50. TVBD will have limited use if you can't bond at least 3 channels together, closer to 6. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike Hammett
Then the problem arises of frequency reuse if we have such low gain antenna all over the place... and the size of a sector antenna for towers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
Think innovation. Remove or move a segment of a certain element design and you've modified the resonant frequency. With things I have in my barn I could design and build a turnstile with tunable elements. Think trombone with specific markings. Broadband antennas by design need be larger than

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
Have you ever taken a really good look at an FM broadcast antenna? Most are circularly polarized so they can be received by both horizontal and vertical receive antennas. Even at 90 MHz they aren't that large either. My choice of sector would be something like that, and would be made of

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike Hammett
My experience is mostly limited to the WISP market (though I'm not completely ignorant of other markets). Innovation is always welcome, but any sector that delivers approximately 90 degrees and 15 dBi performance is going to be huge. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Ryan Spott
At 20watts, you probably won't need a 15db antenna. :) With lightly licensed, you probably won't need a sector. (less interference). With GPS timing (ala moto/cell gear) you will have less self-interference. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: My

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike Hammett
So we're regressing to a bunch of high powered omnis? Maybe I don't understand how much of a God-send sync is, but if it's that great, why is the default Canopy setup 6x 60* sectors instead of a single omni? (I'm not saying sync is bad, I wish everything had sync). I don't really give a hoot

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Ryan Spott
Mike, I would suggest that you not use this band if it does not meet your needs. I tend to not use 5.8 in my area as 5.8 does not meet my needs. Your needs appear to be different from mine. ryan On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: So we're regressing

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
You're not going to need 15 dBi. Link budgets are way different at VHF than Microwave. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA]

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike Hammett
Antenna gain is just as much about where the power is as where it isn't. It's a much more effective use of my equipment to focus the energy out in a 8 or 10 degree E plane than it is to shoot it at the moon or at the base of the tower. I also can't very well engineer my network around sources

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Tom Sharples
Thanks for all the input folks. I just picked up an Imagstream gateway router at what I think is an excellent price on Ebay. I'll also download Vyatta and test that. We'll see :-) Tom S. - Original Message - From: Jeff Broadwick jeffl...@comcast.net To: 'Tom Sharples'

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
I was sent a private post asking what system, if I was designing it, I would deploy. Respecting that post, I'll just answer here. I think a form of spread spectrum technology, perhaps using coherent radios would be just the thing. Some of the best algorithms give those whose function it is to

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Greg Ihnen
Circular polarization is used to prevent picket fencing - the signal dropping out repeatedly as one moves through areas where reflections meet to create a null in the signal. And you pay a price for that because the receive antennas are not circularly polarized. So there's a polarization

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Greg Ihnen
2.5GHz or MHz? On Apr 4, 2010, at 5:06 PM, RickG wrote: Back in the late 90's when I was running an MMDS operation on 2.5MHz, we used a 100 watt system. We had customers more than 30 miles away with multi-megabit connections. Give me power! On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Kurt Fankhauser

Re: [WISPA] dry copper solution

2010-04-05 Thread Marco Coelho
I've used cisco DSLAM and DSL Clients to do that (many other options exist). 3 miles is not far at all, you should be able to push at least 10M-20M symetrical depending on the quality of the copper. If you are getting the dry pair from your phone company, you may have problems with them. Many

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Scott Lambert
On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 10:15:24PM -0400, Tom DeReggi wrote: What Vyatta does is pretty cool. And they have also been giving back to open snip But the bad is its priced wrong. They are going high end, targeting a coporate user that might have one or two routers. They make their

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Tom Sharples
Have you run into the pfsense pptp limitation? That is, only one customer (behind your pfsense NAT router) , can establish a pptp session to the same external pptp server at a time. At least, that's what the pfsense download site lists under known limitations. Tom S. - Original Message

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Glenn Kelley
there are other options than pptp such as openvpn or ipsec On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Tom Sharples wrote: Have you run into the pfsense pptp limitation? That is, only one customer (behind your pfsense NAT router) , can establish a pptp session to the same external pptp server at a

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Glenn Kelley
Scott One limitation currently with BGP is you cannot have more than 1 peer. I am awaiting that fix myself. I love PFSENSE - Chris has done an awesome job on that project. On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:30 PM, Scott Lambert wrote: he same way. But, now they have support contracts based on resonable

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Tom Sharples
Sure, but that's the default Windows VPN client. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Glenn Kelley gl...@hostmedic.com To: Tom Sharples tsharp...@qorvus.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Vyatta? there are other options

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Glenn Kelley
i hear ya but then again - windows is a virus anyhow is it not ;-) ok - knowing I said that - I am sure that I am about to start a war... PS Josh, Bob, Mark and Larry - good luck w/ tonights lightning storms here in Ohio - know they tend to kick hard ... :-( On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:55 PM,

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Josh Luthman
Right screen = monitoring system Top screen = weather Bottom screen is me hoping for the best =) It looks like a small storm, most of my stuff is north of the storm. I don't think it will go near anyone else. At least I'm hoping not! Thanks for the luck! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Glenn Kelley
Fayette County is right in the middle of it - so for Bob and Larry - I know it will hit... :-/ hail right now here in Court House - just a little however have a good one On Apr 5, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: ht screen = monitoring system Top screen = weather Bottom screen is

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Josh Luthman
Hang tight! We'll get through this!!! *draw some action movie with protagonist over acting in a fake storm* Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.”

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Chuck Hogg
Let me know if you need anything...you know how to get ahold of me. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent:

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Josh Luthman
Technology kicks ass... http://www.wunderground.com/radar/radblast.asp?ID=ILNlat=40.03506851lon=-84.20671082label=Troy%2C+OHtype=N0Rzoommode=panmap.x=400map.y=240centerx=400centery=240prevzoom=zoomnum=6delay=15scale=1showlabels=1smooth=0noclutter=0showstorms=0rainsnow=0lightning=1 Josh Luthman

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Mike
Theoretically, if you have the circular sense of a circularly polarized signal wrong, you will have infinite loss. However, typically, due to distortions in the atmosphere and multipath, you will end up with an elliptical signal with an E-field vector component greater in one direction than the

[WISPA] Outsourced Tech support options?

2010-04-05 Thread Nick Olsen
We are looking for a tech support option for our hotspot users only. Somewhere to send our hotspot tech support calls to after hours or when were unavailable. This would be low volume. Any ideas? Nick Olsen Network Engineer / Customer Support (321) 205-1100 x106

Re: [WISPA] dry copper solution

2010-04-05 Thread Jeromie Reeves
VDSL units back to back should get you a pretty decent amount of bandwidth, VDSL2+ will use 2 pair vs 1 pair and gain even more. How are you getting the copper between sites? Qwest is a PITA and demands it all runs back to the CO, adding miles like crazy. On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Marco

Re: [WISPA] dry copper solution

2010-04-05 Thread Patrick Cole
At 3 miles, VDSL is not a good solution. That is a very long loop length. VDSL2 does not use 2 pairs. In fact, VDSL2 is designed to fall back to ADSL2+ modulation when going beyond the beneficial limits of VDSL (~ 2km). Most ethernet extenders also tap out around 2km. The only real option you

Re: [WISPA] dry copper solution

2010-04-05 Thread Jeromie Reeves
There are VDSL2+ setups that use 2 pair for bonding. Yes it can fall back to ADSL2. I have a install where its about 2.8mi and doing 5mbit each direction between a farmers house and his 2nd house/shop/barn. On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Patrick Cole z...@amused.net wrote: At 3 miles, VDSL is

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Josh Luthman
I really think you'll love ImageStream... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 11:34 PM, Scott Lambert

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Scott Lambert
On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 04:48:38PM -0700, Tom Sharples wrote: Have you run into the pfsense pptp limitation? That is, only one customer (behind your pfsense NAT router) , can establish a pptp session to the same external pptp server at a time. At least, that's what the pfsense download site

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread RickG
GHz. I dont think MHz would carry much data? On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: 2.5GHz or MHz? On Apr 4, 2010, at 5:06 PM, RickG wrote: Back in the late 90's when I was running an MMDS operation on 2.5MHz, we used a 100 watt system. We had customers more

Re: [WISPA] WISPA TV Whitespaces Meeting with the FCC

2010-04-05 Thread Josh Luthman
Probably not but it has some other uses! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_frequency Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Scott Lambert
On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 11:37:54PM -0400, Josh Luthman wrote: I really think you'll love ImageStream... I don't mind the three living ImageStream TransPort routers we inherited. Once I changed the editor to default to vi, I was pretty happy. I am not much of a fan of the interface

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Justin Wilson
I have always been a fan of the Imagestream routers. The main advantage I see is you can actually pickup the phone and call someone if you have issues. One network I work on had a BGP issue a few months back. After a call to Imagestream we had a course of action to fix this weird issue. To me,

Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?

2010-04-05 Thread Josh Luthman
Call support and they can fix your ImageStream issues. Need to push a little bit and use the phone. To this day I've not had a response to my emails without a phone call. On 4/6/10, Scott Lambert lamb...@lambertfam.org wrote: On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 11:37:54PM -0400, Josh Luthman wrote: I