Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for "unsubsidized competitor"

[Fred Goldstein]

At 2/17/2012 11:30 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
So meeting the switch at each rate center is free, but meeting at 
the tandem costs money?


I had always thought that you built to a tandem for $X and if your 
traffic with a given switch exceeded a certain amount, you then 
connected to that tandem and then each switch at $X*Y where Y is the 
number of switches you connect to.


Then again, I'm not a CLEC.


There are two different points involved.  While the terminology 
varies place to place, one might call the "interconnect point" the 
switch that your trunk goes to and the "point of interconnection" the 
physical handoff.  Or one might use the opposite terminology -- 
different ILECs' ICAs used them both ways, though nowadays the "IP" 
is usually not discussed by name. But for this discussion I'll use 
the former form.


You generally need one POI per LATA per ILEC for all local 
traffic.  Some ICAs, especially those that waive intraLATA access 
charges, may require more POIs, but the actual rule is "single 
POI".  So you can run a circuit to any old wire center and declare 
that to be your POI.  You build or pay for your trunks to the POI, 
and they bring their trunks to the POI, and reciprocal compensation 
then applies to the calls (unless you are on a bill and keep 
arrangement).  Plus transit per-minute rates for calls to other 
carriers on the tandem.  But no $X per trunk.


However, that POI may have multiple IPs on it.  You start by 
connecting to each tandem that serves your local calling 
areas.  (General rule:  In VZland, tandems are strictly 
geographic.  In 13-state-ATTland, they aren't, and you may have to 
connect to every tandem in the LATA, just to serve one rate 
center.  But you don't pay for the mileage; it just means a lot of 
T1s if there are a lot of tandems.)  Now if your traffic to any one 
switch exceeds the level of a T1 (about 300k minutes/month), they can 
require a Direct End Office Trunk. This helps unload the tandem.  But 
the mileage is on their side of the POI so you don't pay for it.


But for "access" (non-local) traffic, you do pay the mileage to every 
tandem that serves your rate centers.  If the trunk carries a mix of 
local and non-local traffic (quite normal for intraLATA toll), then 
the price of the trunk is usually prorated based on the Percentage of 
Local Use (PLU).  So if it's PLU 80, then you pay 20% of the 
mileage.  On a "meet point" trunk that carries only interLATA 
traffic, you pay 100% (because it's PLU0), but also the mileage rate 
is prorated between the state and interstate tariffs (based on "PIU", 
percentage of interstate use).  And if the access circuit crosses 
between ILEC territories, it might be meet-point billed, prorated 
between the carriers between you and the tandem.  Meet point ratios 
are found in NECA Tariff 4.


This is all rather baroque and thus hard for the ILECs to administer 
correctly.  So billing disputes are remarkably common.  It's easiest, 
actually, in a rural area where one local trunk group picks up the 
whole local area and a separate (billable) tandem trunk picks up 
non-local calls.




On 2/17/2012 10:21 AM, Fred Goldstein wrote:

At 2/17/2012 10:59 AM, John Scrivener wrote:
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Mike Hammett 
<wispawirel...@ics-il.net > wrote:
They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national 
providers cover areas where broadband is not already available.


 Actually Net Sapiens and Ipifony are not in the business of 
"reselling a national provider". They sell hardware and managed 
services for getting into the VoIP business. That is not to say 
they would not help you connect with a national provider if that 
is the path that one chose to get there. That is one piece of a 
large puzzle they help you complete. I have talked to both 
companies extensively. What I did not know was that there is more 
to being a facilities based ETC than buying the gear that 
NetSapiens and Ipifony sell. I wish those companies would come on 
here and discuss this with you guys more but I know for a fact 
they are more than just resellers of national player services as 
Mike has said here.

Scriv


Those are equipment vendors, not resellers.  But at least from 
their web site descriptions of the product, they don't talk about 
SS7 connectivity and IMTs, which are the heart of "Class 4" 
operation, and needed to be a CLEC.  So if you're in a place that 
has CLECs (Level 3, Widnstream/Paetec, Earthlink, and who ever else 
hasn't been rolled up yet) selling SIP trunks of PRIs, great.  But 
if you're in the rural areas where broadband=WISP and backhaul to a 
NAP = $, then you may need to create your own CLEC switching.


FWIW, current rules (this is open in the pending FNPRM, Comments 
due next Friday) are that, in general, local trunks are exchanged 
with ILECs at no charge, provided you meet them inside any of their 
central offices (via collocation, mid-span fiber meet, or by 

Re: [WISPA] RTS & Fragmentation Threshold UBNT

[Chris Fabien]

The only time I have found any benefit to these  on an Airmax link is with
an interference problem, by making the frames going over the air smaller,
it seems to be somewhat more resilient. I usually do this by lowering or
disabling the aggregation or lowering the fragmentation threshold. In any
normal case, I leave disabled.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Arthur Stephens
wrote:

>  Anyone have recommendations on what to set the RTS and fragmentation
> threshold to on Ubquiti Products?
> --
>
> Arthur Stephens
> Senior Sales Technician
> Ptera Wireless Inc.
> PO Box 135 Liberty Lake, WA 99019
> 509-927-7837
> For technical support visit http://www.ptera.net/support
>  -
>
> "This message may contain confidential and/or propriety information, and
> is intended for the person/entity to whom it was originally addressed.
> Any use by others is strictly prohibited. Please note that any views or
> opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and are not
> intended to represent those of the company."
>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] RTS & Fragmentation Threshold UBNT

[Matt Hoppes]

Are you using AirMax?  If so, leave them disabled.


Matt Hoppes
Director of Information Technology
Indigo Wireless
+1 (570) 723-7312

On 2/17/12 1:15 PM, Arthur Stephens wrote:
> Anyone have recommendations on what to set the RTS and fragmentation
> threshold to on Ubquiti Products?
> --
>
> Arthur Stephens
> Senior Sales Technician
> Ptera Wireless Inc.
> PO Box 135 Liberty Lake, WA 99019
> 509-927-7837
> For technical support visit http://www.ptera.net/support
> -
>
> "This message may contain confidential and/or propriety information, and
> is intended for the person/entity to whom it was originally addressed.
> Any use by others is strictly prohibited. Please note that any views or
> opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and are
> not intended to represent those of the company."
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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[WISPA] RTS & Fragmentation Threshold UBNT

[Arthur Stephens]

  
  
Anyone have recommendations on what to set the RTS and fragmentation
threshold to on Ubquiti Products?
-- 
  
  Arthur Stephens
  
  Senior Sales Technician
  
  Ptera
  Wireless Inc.
  PO Box 135
  Liberty Lake, WA 99019
  
  509-927-7837
  
  For technical support visit http://www.ptera.net/support
 -
  
  "This message may contain confidential and/or propriety
  information,
  and is intended for the person/entity to whom it was originally
  addressed. 
  Any use by others is strictly prohibited.
  Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are
  solely those of the author and are not intended to represent those
  of the company."

  




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Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for "unsubsidized competitor"

[Mike Hammett]

So meeting the switch at each rate center is free, but meeting at the 
tandem costs money?


I had always thought that you built to a tandem for $X and if your 
traffic with a given switch exceeded a certain amount, you then 
connected to that tandem and then each switch at $X*Y where Y is the 
number of switches you connect to.


Then again, I'm not a CLEC.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



On 2/17/2012 10:21 AM, Fred Goldstein wrote:

At 2/17/2012 10:59 AM, John Scrivener wrote:
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Mike Hammett 
mailto:wispawirel...@ics-il.net> > wrote:


They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national
providers cover areas where broadband is not already available.

 Actually Net Sapiens and Ipifony are not in the business of 
"reselling a national provider". They sell hardware and managed 
services for getting into the VoIP business. That is not to say they 
would not help you connect with a national provider if that is the 
path that one chose to get there. That is one piece of a large puzzle 
they help you complete. I have talked to both companies extensively. 
What I did not know was that there is more to being a facilities 
based ETC than buying the gear that NetSapiens and Ipifony sell. I 
wish those companies would come on here and discuss this with you 
guys more but I know for a fact they are more than just resellers of 
national player services as Mike has said here.

Scriv


Those are equipment vendors, not resellers.  But at least from their 
web site descriptions of the product, they don't talk about SS7 
connectivity and IMTs, which are the heart of "Class 4" operation, and 
needed to be a CLEC.  So if you're in a place that has CLECs (Level 3, 
Widnstream/Paetec, Earthlink, and who ever else hasn't been rolled up 
yet) selling SIP trunks of PRIs, great.  But if you're in the rural 
areas where broadband=WISP and backhaul to a NAP = $, then you may 
need to create your own CLEC switching.


FWIW, current rules (this is open in the pending FNPRM, Comments due 
next Friday) are that, in general, local trunks are exchanged with 
ILECs at no charge, provided you meet them inside any of their central 
offices (via collocation, mid-span fiber meet, or by paying them for 
the entrance facility).  But toll (inter-LATA) traffic arrives on 
trunks into the regional access tandem, and you usually have to pay 
for that mileage at fairly high (switched access transport) rates.  
Fortuantely, most trunks are local.


 --
 Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
 ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
 +1 617 795 2701




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Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for "unsubsidized competitor"

[Fred Goldstein]

At 2/17/2012 10:59 AM, John Scrivener wrote:
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Mike Hammett 
<wispawirel...@ics-il.net> wrote:
They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national 
providers cover areas where broadband is not already available.


 Actually Net Sapiens and Ipifony are not in the business of 
"reselling a national provider". They sell hardware and managed 
services for getting into the VoIP business. That is not to say they 
would not help you connect with a national provider if that is the 
path that one chose to get there. That is one piece of a large 
puzzle they help you complete. I have talked to both companies 
extensively. What I did not know was that there is more to being a 
facilities based ETC than buying the gear that NetSapiens and 
Ipifony sell. I wish those companies would come on here and discuss 
this with you guys more but I know for a fact they are more than 
just resellers of national player services as Mike has said here.

Scriv


Those are equipment vendors, not resellers.  But at least from their 
web site descriptions of the product, they don't talk about SS7 
connectivity and IMTs, which are the heart of "Class 4" operation, 
and needed to be a CLEC.  So if you're in a place that has CLECs 
(Level 3, Widnstream/Paetec, Earthlink, and who ever else hasn't been 
rolled up yet) selling SIP trunks of PRIs, great.  But if you're in 
the rural areas where broadband=WISP and backhaul to a NAP = $, 
then you may need to create your own CLEC switching.


FWIW, current rules (this is open in the pending FNPRM, Comments due 
next Friday) are that, in general, local trunks are exchanged with 
ILECs at no charge, provided you meet them inside any of their 
central offices (via collocation, mid-span fiber meet, or by paying 
them for the entrance facility).  But toll (inter-LATA) traffic 
arrives on trunks into the regional access tandem, and you usually 
have to pay for that mileage at fairly high (switched access 
transport) rates.  Fortuantely, most trunks are local.


 --
 Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
 ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
 +1 617 795 2701 


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Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for "unsubsidized competitor"

[John Scrivner]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

>  They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national providers
> cover areas where broadband is not already available.
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutionshttp://www.ics-il.com
>
>

 Actually Net Sapiens and Ipifony are not in the business of "reselling a
national provider". They sell hardware and managed services for getting
into the VoIP business. That is not to say they would not help you connect
with a national provider if that is the path that one chose to get there.
That is one piece of a large puzzle they help you complete. I have talked
to both companies extensively. What I did not know was that there is more
to being a facilities based ETC than buying the gear that NetSapiens and
Ipifony sell. I wish those companies would come on here and discuss this
with you guys more but I know for a fact they are more than just resellers
of national player services as Mike has said here.
Scriv



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Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for "unsubsidized competitor"

[Mike Hammett]

They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national providers 
cover areas where broadband is not already available.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



On 2/17/2012 7:53 AM, John Scrivner wrote:
If I am not mistaken, WISPA has a couple of Vendor Members who already 
sell a turnkey solution to this, Ipiphony and NetSapiens both sell 
complete switch solutions to provide full-blown CLEC level services 
via VoIP I believe. It may be that I am not understanding what you are 
proposing though. Any help along these lines is much appreciated. I am 
certainly no telco specialist so don't let me stop the ideas from coming.

John Scrivner


On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Fred R. Goldstein 
mailto:fgoldst...@ionary.com>> wrote:


The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be
subsidized to provide "broadband" unless there is an "unsubsidized
competitor" who provides both voice and data service.  Jack Unger has
written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it
to be "unsubsidized competition", wherein the data provider needn't
be the voice provider.  But there's no guarantee that the FCC
(currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action.

A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP.  It need not be
a certificated CLEC.  However, to get the VoIP service and local
numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the
tandem switch serving its area.  In some rural areas, this might not
be available.  So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least
get one to serve its area.

While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a
"switch", that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to
have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway.  At least
one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote "rent a call agent"
service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with
Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere,
passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN.  So
the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks
into the local central office.  The VoIP side of the gateway then
feeds the subscribers.

I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this
up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type
of service?  Would it help anyone meet the "unsubsidized competitor"
requirement?  Thanks...

 --
 Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com

 ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
+1 617 795 2701 





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Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for "unsubsidized competitor"

[Fred Goldstein]

At 2/17/2012 08:53 AM, John Scrivner wrote:
If I am not mistaken, WISPA has a couple of Vendor Members who 
already sell a turnkey solution to this, Ipiphony and NetSapiens 
both sell complete switch solutions to provide full-blown CLEC level 
services via VoIP I believe. It may be that I am not understanding 
what you are proposing though. Any help along these lines is much 
appreciated. I am certainly no telco specialist so don't let me stop 
the ideas from coming.Â

John Scrivner


I'm not talking about buying your own VoIP call agent ("softswitch"), 
but about obtaining it as a service.  The vast majority of VoIP 
platforms, including the ones you site, are basically PBXs.  They do 
not directly interface to ILEC tandem switches or the SS7 
network.  Rather, they assume that you can buy PRIs or SIP trunks 
from a legacy CLEC in your area, probably off of that DMS-500 first 
installed in 1998 to serve modems.  So that company is the CLEC and 
you're a value-added VoIP retailer.  That's a perfectly okay model if 
you have a good CLEC in your area.  But you might not.


The rent-a-call-agent model I'm talking about is to take the place of 
that old DMS, not the PBX/Centrex function.  So it would take 
InterMachine Trunks from the ILEC, who sends the signaling across the 
SS7 network to the call agent (remotely).  You'd then get SIP off of 
your own local media gateway, and could feed that into a feature 
server or your choice of VoIP platform, or just feed the VoIP 
POTS-type lines (what you need ot be an "unsubsidized competitor") 
directly from the gateway into your network.  You're the CLEC, not 
the company who bought the company that bought a DMS-500.  But your 
"switch" is just a local gateway, like an Audiocodes Mediant 2000, 
and it's managed as a service.


Does that clarify things?


On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Fred R. Goldstein 
<fgoldst...@ionary.com> wrote:

The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be
subsidized to provide "broadband" unless there is an "unsubsidized
competitor" who provides both voice and data service. Â Jack Unger has
written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it
to be "unsubsidized competition", wherein the data provider needn't
be the voice provider. Â But there's no guarantee that the FCC
(currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action.

A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP. Â It need not be
a certificated CLEC. Â However, to get the VoIP service and local
numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the
tandem switch serving its area. Â In some rural areas, this might not
be available. Â So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least
get one to serve its area.

While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a
"switch", that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to
have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway. Â At least
one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote "rent a call agent"
service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with
Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere,
passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN. Â So
the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks
into the local central office. Â The VoIP side of the gateway then
feeds the subscribers.

I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this
up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type
of service? Â Would it help anyone meet the "unsubsidized competitor"
requirement? Â Thanks...

 --
 Fred Goldstein    k1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
 ionary Consulting              
http://www.ionary.com/

 +1 617 795 2701




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 --
 Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
 ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
 +1 617 795 2701 


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for "unsubsidized competitor"

[John Scrivner]

If I am not mistaken, WISPA has a couple of Vendor Members who already sell
a turnkey solution to this, Ipiphony and NetSapiens both sell complete
switch solutions to provide full-blown CLEC level services via VoIP I
believe. It may be that I am not understanding what you are proposing
though. Any help along these lines is much appreciated. I am certainly no
telco specialist so don't let me stop the ideas from coming.
John Scrivner


On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Fred R. Goldstein wrote:

> The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be
> subsidized to provide "broadband" unless there is an "unsubsidized
> competitor" who provides both voice and data service.  Jack Unger has
> written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it
> to be "unsubsidized competition", wherein the data provider needn't
> be the voice provider.  But there's no guarantee that the FCC
> (currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action.
>
> A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP.  It need not be
> a certificated CLEC.  However, to get the VoIP service and local
> numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the
> tandem switch serving its area.  In some rural areas, this might not
> be available.  So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least
> get one to serve its area.
>
> While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a
> "switch", that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to
> have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway.  At least
> one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote "rent a call agent"
> service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with
> Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere,
> passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN.  So
> the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks
> into the local central office.  The VoIP side of the gateway then
> feeds the subscribers.
>
> I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this
> up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type
> of service?  Would it help anyone meet the "unsubsidized competitor"
> requirement?  Thanks...
>
>  --
>  Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
>  ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
>  +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
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>
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>
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Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for "unsubsidized competitor"

[Kevin Sullivan]

Sounds interesting. My wife started a CLEC several years ago, but then got 
busy with some other projects, and not much has been done with it yet.

Kevin

- Original Message - 
From: "Fred Goldstein" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for "unsubsidized 
competitor"


> At 2/16/2012 07:01 PM, Kevin Sullivan wrote:
>>I don't know enough about the CLEC stuff to say for sure, but that sounds
>>interesting. Would that let you get local DID's for VoIP?
>
> Yes.  Numbers are given to CLECs, so you'd create a CLEC or team up
> with an existing CLEC that doesn't yet serve your area, and then
> could pull phone number blocks from NANPA.
>
>>Kevin
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Fred R. Goldstein" 
>>To: 
>>Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:57 PM
>>Subject: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for "unsubsidized
>>competitor"
>>
>>
>> > The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be
>> > subsidized to provide "broadband" unless there is an "unsubsidized
>> > competitor" who provides both voice and data service.  Jack Unger has
>> > written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it
>> > to be "unsubsidized competition", wherein the data provider needn't
>> > be the voice provider.  But there's no guarantee that the FCC
>> > (currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action.
>> >
>> > A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP.  It need not be
>> > a certificated CLEC.  However, to get the VoIP service and local
>> > numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the
>> > tandem switch serving its area.  In some rural areas, this might not
>> > be available.  So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least
>> > get one to serve its area.
>> >
>> > While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a
>> > "switch", that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to
>> > have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway.  At least
>> > one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote "rent a call agent"
>> > service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with
>> > Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere,
>> > passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN.  So
>> > the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks
>> > into the local central office.  The VoIP side of the gateway then
>> > feeds the subscribers.
>> >
>> > I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this
>> > up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type
>> > of service?  Would it help anyone meet the "unsubsidized competitor"
>> > requirement?  Thanks...
>
>  --
>  Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
>  ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
>  +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
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