Re: [WISPA] making money from voip

2010-11-12 Thread Chuck Bartosch
When I spoke to them last (only about 4 weeks ago) Ron Harden said they didn't 
support hunt groups (the name was eluding me when I first posted to this 
thread-odd given that hunt groups were fundamental to any ISP for so many 
years! ;-), though they could do line forwarding.

Are you saying Vox DOES support hunt groups? That'd be so odd since Ron is the 
executive VP or something I thought. That or I'm royally messed up...

Chuck

On Nov 11, 2010, at 10:20 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:

 You have to get them to enable hunting. It's not the same as forwarding. 
 
 Sent from my iPhone4
 
 On Nov 11, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com wrote:
 
 How do you handle the line pool problem? It's the only issue keeping me from 
 going to Vox for business customers-most businesses have multiple lines 
 where a customer calls in and gets whatever line is free in the pool. Vox 
 can do line forwarding, but that means the customer has to call the first 
 line in the forwarding sequence and there's a delay while each line is found 
 to be busy before it's forwarded (I assume), so it isn't the same as normal 
 line pool.
 
 Would love a practical solution to this problem.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Nov 11, 2010, at 9:08 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
 
 Everything we use is branded in our name including the LOA's and the 
 portal. Vox handles everything up front during the setup process. Since 95% 
 of our lines are ported from other companies it was important for this to 
 all have our company name. 
 
 Sent from my iPhone4
 
 On Nov 11, 2010, at 7:27 PM, Roger Howard g5inter...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 If you use VOX, do you still have to do all the FCC stuff, since you
 are not the provider?
 
 Thanks,
 Roger
 
 On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Jeremie Chism jchi...@gmail.com wrote:
 Tried Telemedium. They were horrible. As a matter of fact they are out of 
 business now. We use VOX. They are a wispa member. I have yet to get a 
 call from anyone complaining about voice quality b
 
 Sent from my iPhone4
 
 On Nov 11, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Ryan Goldberg rgoldb...@compudyne.net 
 wrote:
 
 Whose service do you use?  Who if anyone did you try before current 
 provider?
 
 Thanks-
 Ryan
 
 
 
 On Nov 11, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Jeremie Chism jchi...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Our approach is white label to business only bundled with our Internet 
 usually and other Internet outside of our coverage. We include email, 
 webhosting, data backup with all packages to make us sticky. Also we 
 definitely aren't the cheapest. We went that route in the beginning but 
 sales didn't take off until we raised our price.
 
 Sent from my iPhone4
 
 On Nov 11, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Ryan Goldberg rgoldb...@compudyne.net 
 wrote:
 
 Curious what models you guys are working.  Hosted PBX, white label, 
 etc.  What approach for SMB v. residential v enterprise.  And so on.
 
 TIA
 
 Ryan
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] making money from voip

2010-11-11 Thread Chuck Bartosch
How do you handle the line pool problem? It's the only issue keeping me from 
going to Vox for business customers-most businesses have multiple lines where a 
customer calls in and gets whatever line is free in the pool. Vox can do line 
forwarding, but that means the customer has to call the first line in the 
forwarding sequence and there's a delay while each line is found to be busy 
before it's forwarded (I assume), so it isn't the same as normal line pool.

Would love a practical solution to this problem.

Chuck

On Nov 11, 2010, at 9:08 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:

 Everything we use is branded in our name including the LOA's and the portal. 
 Vox handles everything up front during the setup process. Since 95% of our 
 lines are ported from other companies it was important for this to all have 
 our company name. 
 
 Sent from my iPhone4
 
 On Nov 11, 2010, at 7:27 PM, Roger Howard g5inter...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 If you use VOX, do you still have to do all the FCC stuff, since you
 are not the provider?
 
 Thanks,
 Roger
 
 On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Jeremie Chism jchi...@gmail.com wrote:
 Tried Telemedium. They were horrible. As a matter of fact they are out of 
 business now. We use VOX. They are a wispa member. I have yet to get a call 
 from anyone complaining about voice quality b
 
 Sent from my iPhone4
 
 On Nov 11, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Ryan Goldberg rgoldb...@compudyne.net wrote:
 
 Whose service do you use?  Who if anyone did you try before current 
 provider?
 
 Thanks-
 Ryan
 
 
 
 On Nov 11, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Jeremie Chism jchi...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Our approach is white label to business only bundled with our Internet 
 usually and other Internet outside of our coverage. We include email, 
 webhosting, data backup with all packages to make us sticky. Also we 
 definitely aren't the cheapest. We went that route in the beginning but 
 sales didn't take off until we raised our price.
 
 Sent from my iPhone4
 
 On Nov 11, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Ryan Goldberg rgoldb...@compudyne.net 
 wrote:
 
 Curious what models you guys are working.  Hosted PBX, white label, etc. 
  What approach for SMB v. residential v enterprise.  And so on.
 
 TIA
 
 Ryan
 
 
 
 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!




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Re: [WISPA] Licensed 11ghz Hops

2010-11-05 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I'll hazard a guess here that Radwin was OEMing boxes from Ceragon at the time 
then. That's like me complaining about Redline if I had problems with 
Alvarion's old Link Blaster, which was an OEM'd Redline point-to-point 
product. If I bought it from Alvarion and didn't get support, then it's 
Alvarion's problem, not Redline's. (For the record here, we were perfectly 
happy with the Link Blaster-just using that as an example). It wouldn't be 
right or fair for me to sling mud at Redline for it, especially *years* later.

We all get a bug up our butts about something or another, but I think its bad 
practice if nothing else to go out of your way to hurt a company you never even 
bought anything from (remember, your main problem was with the zero support, 
which was a Radwin issue, not a Ceragon issue) when those of us who actually 
have experience buying from the company seem to be quite happy.

Either way, your experience was from years ago. We all know companies go 
through problems at times. If they fix them, great. If not, they'll pay the 
price in the marketplace. And if you had current, direct experiences to report, 
that's useful information. But it's worth it to give even companies that have 
messed up a chance to prove they can fix themselves.

I'd defend Redline the same way if the circumstances were similar.

Chuck



On Nov 5, 2010, at 12:15 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

 Says Ceragon on the boxes.
 
 They appear identical in hardware and software to the Radwins we bought with
 the company.  Just FYI.
 On Nov 5, 2010 12:03 AM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com wrote:
 To be honest Josh, didn't you tell me your problems were with what was at
 one time a sister company, Radwin, and not Ceragon? Yet you call the company
 Ceragon when you've told me it was really Radwin. It really isn't fair to
 be tarring and feathering Ceragon due to the problems with Radwin-which was
 years ago and not even the same company.
 
 Ceragon products in the licensed sphere are _strictly_ Ceragon designed
 and manufactured (I followed up on this the last time you were panning
 Ceragon so I could independently understand the situation). They are not
 even OEM'd from Radwin. Ceragon is an independent, publicly traded company.
 It was *started*, years ago by the same investment group that started
 Radwin.
 
 For the record, we've been quite happy with Ceragon's products. The
 interface hasn't been a problem, but like Brad, I believe we tend to use the
 telnet interface. I've also been happy with Alvarion and Ubiquity in the
 unlicensed space. I have no personal interest in any of these companies, but
 don't think it's fair to malign a manufacturer when you don't actually have
 any experience with them as far as I can tell. When you did have problems it
 was with a related company, not this company, it was years ago (things DO
 change), and this company at least is no longer even a sister company (in
 the sense at least that it is now publicly traded).
 
 Chuck
 
 On Nov 4, 2010, at 10:15 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
 
 The air must be different there. I can't stand Ceragon stuff. Nothing but
 problems. Zero support. The firmware is terrible as is the interface.
 On Nov 4, 2010 9:58 PM, Brad Belton b...@belwave.com wrote:
 Agreed. We have had Ser# 0001 11GHz Trango GigaLINK in service since
 early 2008 among several others since then with great service. The few
 times
 we’ve needed Trango support they have been extremely responsive and
 helpful.
 
 
 
 
 I think we also have one of the first if not the first 18GHz GigaLINK in
 service too since mid 2007. We’ll be hanging three more Trango Giga’s 
 Apex’s in the next few weeks. We have always been early adopters of
 Sunstream/Trango equipment.
 
 
 
 We have DragonWave, BridgeWave, Trango, DMC, Ceragon and PCOM licensed
 gear deployed and active in 6GHz, 11GHz, 18GHz, 23GHz, 38GHz and 70-80GHz
 on
 our network. By far the Trango, BridgeWave and Ceragon links are our
 favorites.
 
 
 
 Best,
 
 
 
 
 
 Brad
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
 Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 5:21 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Licensed 11ghz Hops
 
 
 
 We use Trango GigaLinks almost exclusively in our network; 6ghz, 11ghz,
 18ghz, and 23ghz. They work very well  support thus far has been great.
 
 
 --
 
 Blake Covarrubias
 
 
 On Nov 4, 2010, at 14:43, Nick Olsen n...@brevardwireless.com wrote:
 
 I've worked with a few of the Trango Apex 11ghz links. Running 256QAM
 they
 will do ~258Mb/s full duplex, or something like that.
 .8 to 1ms across it, With 10Mb/s or 200Mb/s of traffic on it. So far,
 They've been the best links I've had the pleasure of working with. In
 terms
 of performance, And management.
 
 Nick Olsen
 Network Operations
 
 (855) FLSPEED x106
 
 http://www.flhsi.com/files/emaillogo.jpg
 
 
 
 
 _
 
 
 From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
 Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010

Re: [WISPA] Licensed 11ghz Hops

2010-11-04 Thread Chuck Bartosch
/

--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!




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Re: [WISPA] contract for use or tower

2010-08-02 Thread Chuck Bartosch
If you're a WISPA member, I think the wiki has a number of sample contracts.

Chuck

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:50 AM, Liam Cummings lcummi...@datacomspecialists.com 
wrote:

 I’m looking for a good contract to use for exclusive use of someone’s tower. 
 Anyone want to share what they have with us? Would save me tons of time. J
 
  
 
  
 
 TX
 
  
 
 Liam
 
  
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Broadband Stimulus to lose $602 Million?

2010-07-02 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Of course that wouldn't be particular fair given that NTIA got 2/3rds of the 
funding in the first place. I'd hope they'd have to cough up 2/3rds of the give 
back.

Chuck

On Jul 2, 2010, at 12:04 PM, St. Louis Broadband wrote:

 Was just informed by our Senator's Aid that this has not been decided yet.
 If it is approved half of the funds would come out of the NTIA and the other
 RUS.  This would still leave the RUS fund @ $1.5B.
 
 And yes Robert, I hate to see tax dollars spent on a war.
 
 ~V~
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Robert West
 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:46 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Stimulus to lose $602 Million?
 
 Nice.  And for such a great cause, too.
 
 Bob-
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Stimulus to lose $602 Million?
 
 http://broadbandbreakfast.com/?p=9684
 
 
 -- 
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Broadband Stimulus to lose $602 Million?

2010-07-02 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I've contacted the two congressman in our area already. Haven't reached out yet 
to the Senators.

Chuck

On Jul 2, 2010, at 1:12 PM, St. Louis Broadband wrote:

 Just expressed that sentiment with our Senator, suggest you do the same ;-)
 
 ~V~
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck Bartosch [mailto:ch...@clarityconnect.com] 
 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 12:02 PM
 To: li...@stlbroadband.com; WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Stimulus to lose $602 Million?
 
 Of course that wouldn't be particular fair given that NTIA got 2/3rds of the
 funding in the first place. I'd hope they'd have to cough up 2/3rds of the
 give back.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Jul 2, 2010, at 12:04 PM, St. Louis Broadband wrote:
 
 Was just informed by our Senator's Aid that this has not been decided yet.
 If it is approved half of the funds would come out of the NTIA and the
 other
 RUS.  This would still leave the RUS fund @ $1.5B.
 
 And yes Robert, I hate to see tax dollars spent on a war.
 
 ~V~
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Robert West
 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:46 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Stimulus to lose $602 Million?
 
 Nice.  And for such a great cause, too.
 
 Bob-
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 11:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Stimulus to lose $602 Million?
 
 http://broadbandbreakfast.com/?p=9684
 
 
 -- 
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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 Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2977 - Release Date: 07/02/10
 01:35:00
 
 
 
 
 
 
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 --
 Chuck Bartosch
 Clarity Connect, Inc.
 200 Pleasant Grove Road
 Ithaca, NY 14850
 (607) 257-8268
 
 When the stars threw down their spears,
 and water'd heaven with their tears,
 Did He smile, His work to see?
 Did He who made the Lamb make thee?
 
 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!
 
 
 
 
 No virus found in this incoming message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
 Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2977 - Release Date: 07/02/10
 01:35:00
 

--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Documentation Methods

2010-04-22 Thread Chuck Bartosch
You should add (in my opinion):

(1) photo of installation location BEFORE you do the install, not just a post 
install photo.

(2) a sign-off from the customer saying your installation was acceptable. That 
goes a LONG ways when the wife gets home and complains. You got the husband's 
sign-off (or vice versa).

Chuck

On Apr 22, 2010, at 11:05 PM, Steven G McGehee wrote:

 Thought of another question I wanted to pose to you gents regarding 
 documentation on installations, primarily customer installations (as 
 opposed to PoP/tower installations). I was curious what methods you 
 employed during and/or after the install to best 'capture' the details 
 of the installation.
 
 For example, some of the things we do are take notes of any specific 
 'gotchas' on site like needing to park in a certain area, what type of 
 ladder or roof access there is, if you have to sign in or be escorted by 
 a rep. of the business - etc. We also take photos of the installation 
 when we're finished and write up notes afterwards on their account 
 detailing the length and path of the cable that goes from the unit into 
 the structure, what other PoPs we could see at the time, what 
 signal/speeds we were getting, etc.
 
 If any of you would share your methods on what you do, I'd appreciate 
 it. I think we're doing enough, but I'm always open to other suggestions 
 and interested in seeing what others in the business are doing.
 
 Thanks.
 
 
 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion 3.65ghz NLOS as good as 900mhz?

2010-04-20 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I have no experience with 802.16e, but have lots with 802.16d.

16d does not support MIMO. However, even without MIMO, we are ripping out 
900/5.x and putting in Alvarion .16d. The diversity alone gives it penetration 
characteristics equal to or better than 900. WiMax does cost more, as we all 
know, but it also supports more clients (we're projecting close to 200 per base 
station. I hope we're right... ;-). We can't put it in where 900 is serving 
just a few customers.

Chuck

On Apr 19, 2010, at 9:09 AM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote:

 Has anyone seen the Alvarion 3.65ghz 802.16e equipment in operation? Was
 talking to one vendor that claimed if you run the system in MIMO that with
 the diversity you can do NLOS as good as 900mhz and if you get the AP on a
 300ft tower that it starts to feel like 700mhz. He claimed the NLOS was so
 good that people are ripping out complete old systems of 900mhz and 2.4ghz
 and putting in the single system of 3.65ghz to serve their entire customer
 base. 
 
 
 
 Just wondering if anyone has experience or having seen this firsthand.
 
 
 
 Kurt Fankhauser
 WAVELINC
 P.O. Box 126
 Bucyrus, OH 44820
 419-562-6405
 www.wavelinc.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion 3.65ghz NLOS as good as 900mhz?

2010-04-20 Thread Chuck Bartosch
We did not find that WiMax in general was better than 900. The key isn't WiMax, 
per se, but diversity antennas. Performance is *helped* by being 3.65 WiMax but 
that alone does NOT obviate the need for 900 in our experience. Diversity is 
key.

Chuck

On Apr 19, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Jeremie Chism wrote:

 I am not using alvarion 3.65 but I am using wimax. I have a couple  
 customers with lower modulation because of non line of site situations  
 and have seen no impact on the entire system in general. Supposedly  
 wimax is engineered to handle some of this better than my alvarion 900.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:15 AM, Rubens Kuhl rube...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 That would only be true if the data services are somewhat
 purpose-specific and not Internet access. Doing what this vendor told
 you would seriously affect aggregate performance of the cell because
 of low rate modulation of the NLOS and/or distant customers.
 
 If you are doing sensor networks or POS connection you will be fine
 with all those BPSK/QPSK customers, indeed.
 
 
 Rubens
 
 
 On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  
 k...@wavelinc.com wrote:
 Has anyone seen the Alvarion 3.65ghz 802.16e equipment in  
 operation? Was
 talking to one vendor that claimed if you run the system in MIMO  
 that with
 the diversity you can do NLOS as good as 900mhz and if you get the  
 AP on a
 300ft tower that it starts to feel like 700mhz. He claimed the  
 NLOS was so
 good that people are ripping out complete old systems of 900mhz and  
 2.4ghz
 and putting in the single system of 3.65ghz to serve their entire  
 customer
 base.
 
 
 
 Just wondering if anyone has experience or having seen this  
 firsthand.
 
 
 
 Kurt Fankhauser
 WAVELINC
 P.O. Box 126
 Bucyrus, OH 44820
 419-562-6405
 www.wavelinc.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion 3.65ghz NLOS as good as 900mhz?

2010-04-20 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Apr 20, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:

 My point here is that Diversity can make a huge difference, diversity is 
 the differenciator, but that the benefit of diversity can vary dependant on 
 the Freq used and environment tackling, based on past experience.

Without looking up the math on this, I would speculate that the reason is 
wavelength. At 3.65 we're about 4' apart. To get the same advantage at 900 MHz 
I'd willing to bet you might need to be quite a bit further apart-which isn't 
practical in most cases. I'm not willing to say it scales with wavelength (not 
without looking at the actual equations that is) but wavelength is going to be 
a factor in how effective diversity is at any given distance between two 
antennas. On the other hand, moving the antennas further apart at lower 
frequencies should be able to re-create the advantage.

Chuck


 
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:05 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion 3.65ghz NLOS as good as 900mhz?
 
 
 We did not find that WiMax in general was better than 900. The key isn't 
 WiMax, per se, but diversity antennas. Performance is *helped* by being 
 3.65 WiMax but that alone does NOT obviate the need for 900 in our 
 experience. Diversity is key.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Apr 19, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
 
 I am not using alvarion 3.65 but I am using wimax. I have a couple
 customers with lower modulation because of non line of site situations
 and have seen no impact on the entire system in general. Supposedly
 wimax is engineered to handle some of this better than my alvarion 900.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:15 AM, Rubens Kuhl rube...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 That would only be true if the data services are somewhat
 purpose-specific and not Internet access. Doing what this vendor told
 you would seriously affect aggregate performance of the cell because
 of low rate modulation of the NLOS and/or distant customers.
 
 If you are doing sensor networks or POS connection you will be fine
 with all those BPSK/QPSK customers, indeed.
 
 
 Rubens
 
 
 On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
 k...@wavelinc.com wrote:
 Has anyone seen the Alvarion 3.65ghz 802.16e equipment in
 operation? Was
 talking to one vendor that claimed if you run the system in MIMO
 that with
 the diversity you can do NLOS as good as 900mhz and if you get the
 AP on a
 300ft tower that it starts to feel like 700mhz. He claimed the
 NLOS was so
 good that people are ripping out complete old systems of 900mhz and
 2.4ghz
 and putting in the single system of 3.65ghz to serve their entire
 customer
 base.
 
 
 
 Just wondering if anyone has experience or having seen this
 firsthand.
 
 
 
 Kurt Fankhauser
 WAVELINC
 P.O. Box 126
 Bucyrus, OH 44820
 419-562-6405
 www.wavelinc.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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 Clarity Connect, Inc.
 200 Pleasant Grove Road
 Ithaca, NY 14850
 (607) 257-8268
 
 When the stars threw down their spears,
 and water'd heaven with their tears,
 Did He smile, His work to see?
 Did He who made the Lamb make thee?
 
 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-31 Thread Chuck Bartosch
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Does anybody have any ideas?

2010-03-31 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Chuck,

You hope we don't *think* you're nuts?!

coughknowcough ;-)

Chuck

On Mar 31, 2010, at 9:48 PM, Chuck Profito wrote:

 Forbes, 
 Hope the rest of the list doesn't think I'm nuts:
 Do you see any large, hi gain CB or Ham beam antennas or Truckers from the
 southern area parked or loading nearby?
 Within say 1/4 mile of B tower?  The new mobile 70KW class C Linear's are
 about as dirty as they come. Some of those 
 drivers from Mexico and AZ are talking direct, no skip, 500 miles on the
 lower vertical channels.  That much bleed over 
 in radiated power may trip ground on your switch and or MT boards. It could
 come right thru your tower grounding, let alone your antennas and CAt5.
 Could you try batteries there? Say a smart charger thru a UPS, then to
 batteries.   i.e. no common ground. 
 
 Chuck Profito
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Forbes Mercy
 Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:06 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Does anybody have any ideas?
 
 We have been plagued with an ongoing issue in our Mikrotik backhauls.  
 It happens about once a month and only on three radios that feed each 
 other, all other sites work fine.  Site A is my head end, it is a 
 Mikrotik 433 with an XR5 chip that feeds about five miles to another 
 site to Site B.  Site B has the same equipment that goes through a 
 managed switch then passes on to Site C about 7 miles further.
 
 What happens is we are suddenly paged that all three are down.  
 Sometimes Site A stays up, most times not, we can get into Site A since 
 it's the head end and we reboot it, it comes right back up.  Site B and 
 C stay down, we have to drive to Site B and reboot it, it comes back up 
 but Site C stays down.  We have a remote reboot for it from a redundant 
 feed so after rebooting it C reconnects to B and they are all up.  This 
 will happen three or four more times in a single day or not at all again 
 for a month, it's totally unpredictable. The boards are up but not 
 communicating, it also takes down the other 2.4 Mikortik AP's at Site B 
 and that has to be rebooted.  We normally run arp -d to clear up any 
 residual, it sure appears to be traffic related and we are on a bridged 
 not routed network.
 
 The only similarities is it's only this feed, it usually happens in 
 spurts of a day or two then stops for a long time, it always happens 
 during the working day leading me to believe it's coming from a day 
 user.  We run Wireshark but see nothing, we torch the towers and they 
 don't show much unusual.  We're thinking it might be a deluge of traffic 
 between Site B and C and are thinking of putting a PC at the C tower to 
 run diagnostics there.  This is very manpower heavy as we have to send 
 people two places and average down time is one hour to do this.  We are 
 going to turn our network into a routed network this Summer but that 
 doesn't help now.  Any ideas would be appreciated.
 
 Forbes
 
 
 
 
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Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Building Heights?

2010-03-30 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Hey, that's a great tool! Thanks for pointing it out.

Chuck

On Mar 30, 2010, at 11:07 AM, jp wrote:

 Use the profiler on here:
 http://www.heywhatsthat.com/
 
 The website author made it usable for wireless for us. He'll do custom 
 sites that show only your tower locations too if you want.
 
 On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 04:42:27PM -0700, Forbes Mercy wrote:
 Wouldn't it be cool if when using Google Earth you could draw a straight 
 line between two points and it would calculate the altitude of each 
 origin point then mark in red any place where altitude is higher than 
 the beginning and end points along the line?  For long legs in mixed 
 altitude areas that would really be nice.
 
 Forbes
 
 On 3/29/2010 1:12 PM, Jim Patient wrote:
 Well, it prolly isn't good every place but I just selected 3d buildings
 on google earth and drug my mouse from the street to top of Met Square
 in St Louis.  It shows the elevation at street level and the top of the
 building.
 The difference is the elevation of the building height in this case.
 
 Jim
 
 
 On 3/29/2010 2:03 PM, Cameron Crum wrote:
 
 Not for free. This info is usually pretty expensive for good high res
 data. That being said, one interesting flaw in the SRTM data is that is
 contains building canopy within the data. The radar they used bounced
 off man made structures and make them appear to be part of the terrain.
 So, in big cities, or even small ones in core areas, if you are running
 propagation plots, you would not want to add additional building
 heights. If you want the most accurate results, I suggest 10m DEM's
 (where available) with a good set of building elevation data (the
 expensive stuff). If you are just looking to run propagation plots for
 your unlicensed network, The SRTM data is probably good enough.
 
 Cameron
 
 On 3/29/2010 12:07 PM, Charles Hooper wrote:
 
 
 Hello,
 
 Does anyone know a reliable source/method of getting building heights?
 Something like a topographical map that included buildings would be
 excellent, but I haven't been able to find anything like this.
 
 Thanks!
 Charles
 
 
 
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Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] 3.65 GHz WiMAX deal

2010-03-18 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I'm pretty sure Alvarion's 802.16e is using MIMO. (But I'm using their .16d 
stuff so I'm not an expert in the .16e production line).

Chuck

On Mar 18, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Forbes Mercy wrote:

 I have to admit if MIMO is made available in the 3.65 range I'm going to 
 use it in my city.  I've been catering to my rural customers because 2.4 
 and 5GHZ isn't clogged out there.  We already have a 3.65 license but 
 haven't deployed it yet, I anxiously await the MIMO gear on that frequency.
 
 Forbes
 
 
 
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Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] [WISPA Members] How the National Broadband Plan can kill whitespace for WISPs or make it great!

2010-03-18 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Assuming we're talking about the same thing, I think they are proposing to do 
reverse auctions for the spectrum.

Chuck

On Mar 18, 2010, at 5:42 PM, Tony Morella wrote:

 Hello
 
 I was reading thought the National Broadband Plan and these two sections
 caught my attention:
 
 Auction of overlay licenses. Under its current authority,117 the FCC
 could auction overlay, flexible-use licenses with secondary rights in
 the broadcast TV bands. Overlay auction winners would negotiate with
 broadcast TV stations and other licensed users to clear their respective
 bands.118 Proceeds from the overlay auction would go to the U.S.
 Treasury but could be significantly lower than the proceeds
 of an incentive auction, primarily due to greater uncertainty over the
 amount and timing of spectrum recovered.119
 
 118 Stations could clear the overlay license bands by ceasing to
 broadcast over-the-air or by relocating to another broadcast TV band
 with or without overlay licenses. As part of the agreement to cease
 over-the-air broadcasts, stations or overlay license winners could reach
 private contractual carriage agreements with MVPDs to reach the
 remaining 85-90% of households. Thomas Hazlett Comments in re NBP PN
 #26, filed Dec. 18, 2009, at 9. With FCC approval, relocating to another
 band could involve either occupying another available 6-megahertz
 channel or sharing a channel with another station.
 
 The FCC should conduct an auction of some or all of the nationwide,
 contiguous spectrum recovered through the repacking described above and
 through decisions by stations to voluntarily relinquish some or all of
 their bandwidth. Stations would receive a share of the proceeds from the
 spectrum they directly contribute to the auction.
 
 If this is adopted it could kill an unlicensed whitespace device as the
 overlay licenses would have first rights after the main holder. Also if
 they auction off some or all of the spectrum recovered this will
 reduce the white space dramatically. Also the are not recommending any
 changes to how auctions are done to include small business. 
 
 Comments?
 
 Sincerely, Tony Morella
 Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider
 Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008
 http://www.demarctech.com/
 Need to sell off over stock!! Major discounts no quanity needed! 600mW
 Atheros CPEs, Starting at $59.95!!
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Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL

2010-03-17 Thread Chuck Bartosch
If I'm being charged $7000/month just to get to Syracuse by this new build out, 
I can't imagine what they'd charge to go to NYC.

Chuck

On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:02 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

 That is the purpose of a middle mile BTOP grant...  to take you from Ithaca, 
 Syracuse, Binghamton, or Rochester to 60 Hudson St. or 111 8th Ave., New 
 York.
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 --
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:31 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 But He.net isn't in Syracuse so that doesn't do me a whole lot of good. 
 They aren't in Binghamton either. Nor are they in Rochester (which is 
 really too far but is the next closest meet point).
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:21 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote:
 
 He.net will do $1 per Meg with 1 gig minimum commit.
 
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:49:09
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 I can't use a gig right now. However, to *get* that gig would cost us 
 $7000/month for a wavelength on one provider's new network. Suddenly the 
 gig that I can't really use isn't cheap at all. The costs for what I *do* 
 use would more than double.
 
 Even in the carrier hotels in the bigger cities, bandwidth is not 
 available at $1/Mbps. Most quotes, aside from Cogent's end-of-the-year 
 special, are for about $8/Mbps (though that'd be for 100 Mbps scale 
 purchases, not gig purchases).
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
 
 So having a gig transport to $1/megabit transit doesn't deploy access to
 needed areas?
 
 The middle mile could be built wherever.
 
 The best middle mile project we could see is a hybrid of fiber and 
 wireless.
 Mostly fiber with fiber or microwave down to clients.
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 --
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:04 PM
 To: char...@knownelement.com; WISPA General List 
 wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 In my experience,
 
 (1) the problem for rolling out to a new area IS NOT cost of backhaul,
 it's the cost of the equipment. Sure we all like cheaper backhaul, but 
 it
 doesn't prevent a roll out to an unserved area. I'm sure there are
 exceptions to that-but they are going to be very very rare.
 
 (2) the prices I'm seeing for the new backhauls from buildouts funded 
 by
 NTIA are not cheaper than what already exists in an area. Again, I'm 
 sure
 there are exceptions, but I'm willing to bet they are also rare.
 
 As I'm sure you can figure out, I'm not free to disclose which
 applications I'm familiar with.
 
 Chuck
 
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:17 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote:
 
 Citations needed?
 
 I have seen many many many posts on this list discussing/complaining
 about middle mile/back haul issues including access and expense.
 
 If the vast majority of wisps have access to sufficient back haul at
 competive prices then I stand corrected. Do the wisps on this list 
 feel
 that your back haul needs are being adequately met with existing
 infestructure?
 Maybe someone should setup a poll on a website and let wisps vote?
 
 
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:00:04
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 I think largely the middle mile funds are wasted. Most areas already 
 have
 at least *some* fiber. The cost, and the problem, is in getting last 
 mile
 done, not middle mile done. From my direct experience and observation, 
 a
 lot of the middle mile projects NTIA is funding is really for 
 redundant
 fiber. Where it isn't redundant it isn't really providing 
 functionality
 that would help last mile access in the projects I've looked at. 
 Worse,
 the middle mile projects are NOT being designed intimately with last 
 mile
 providers. They are going to key community institutions which (1)
 mostly already have fiber connections and (2) really have no impact on
 where service is needed for last mile access.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
 
 This is why I have said that the stimulus dollars need to go to 
 middle
 milte build outs. Wireless as a last mile medium is very well 
 understood
 and gives best bang for the buck in a lot of scenarios.
 
 Justin Wilson wrote:
 I think part of the issue is economies of scale.  Many rural ISPs
 have
 T1s and T3s at best.  The cost of transport and bandwidth doesn¹t 
 allow
 them
 to scale as well

Re: [WISPA] iPhone ssh app

2010-03-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I'll ask and get back to you. My gf has tried them all 'cause that's what she 
does for fun...

Chuck

On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Jerry Richardson wrote:

 any recommendations on the best jailbreak program?
 
 I used Backra1n and it ran fine for a couple of weeks then crashed for no 
 apparent reason.
 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:34 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] iPhone ssh app
 
 Jerry,
 
 Yes you need to jailbreak.  Jailbreaking basically gives you access to
 the underlying OS rather then being tied to the pretty skined app on
 top of it.
 
 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373
 
 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
 continue that counts.
 --- Winston Churchill
 
 
 
 On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Jerry Richardson
 jrichard...@aircloud.com wrote:
 how do you access the shell? do I need to jailbreak ?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:58 PM, Sales sa...@michianawireless.com wrote:
 
 Hmm I just goto my iPhones command line via shell and type ssh
 ipaddress works like a charm.
 
 John Buwa
 Michiana Wireless,Inc
 574-233-7170
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:54 PM, Data Technology w...@dtisp.com wrote:
 
 I know in the last couple of weeks there was a discussion about an
 ssh
 app for the iPhone.
 I did not save the emails because I thought I would never need
 something
 like because I don't have an iPhone.
 
 But, I bought an iPhone last night and now I am looking for an ssh
 app.
 
 I have found iSSH and the reviews are good about it.  I know that
 $7.99
 for an app is a lot of money but if this is the one to have then I
 don't
 mind spending the money.  This also appears to have a vnc client as
 well.
 
 Any input as far as SSH utilities or any other iPhone apps for WISP
 operations would be appreciated.
 
 LaRoy McCann
 Data Technology
 
 
 ---
 ---
 ---
 ---
 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Here comes the really BIG WAVE

2010-03-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 
 
 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 
 
 
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 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 
 
 
 
 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] iPhone ssh app

2010-03-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Okay, the answer I got was:

blackra1n works in a flash and you don't even need to restore your stuff

http://www.blackra1n.org/

She discussed several others but that's her clear preference.

Chuck


On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Jerry Richardson wrote:

 any recommendations on the best jailbreak program?
 
 I used Backra1n and it ran fine for a couple of weeks then crashed for no 
 apparent reason.
 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:34 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] iPhone ssh app
 
 Jerry,
 
 Yes you need to jailbreak.  Jailbreaking basically gives you access to
 the underlying OS rather then being tied to the pretty skined app on
 top of it.
 
 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373
 
 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
 continue that counts.
 --- Winston Churchill
 
 
 
 On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Jerry Richardson
 jrichard...@aircloud.com wrote:
 how do you access the shell? do I need to jailbreak ?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:58 PM, Sales sa...@michianawireless.com wrote:
 
 Hmm I just goto my iPhones command line via shell and type ssh
 ipaddress works like a charm.
 
 John Buwa
 Michiana Wireless,Inc
 574-233-7170
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:54 PM, Data Technology w...@dtisp.com wrote:
 
 I know in the last couple of weeks there was a discussion about an
 ssh
 app for the iPhone.
 I did not save the emails because I thought I would never need
 something
 like because I don't have an iPhone.
 
 But, I bought an iPhone last night and now I am looking for an ssh
 app.
 
 I have found iSSH and the reviews are good about it.  I know that
 $7.99
 for an app is a lot of money but if this is the one to have then I
 don't
 mind spending the money.  This also appears to have a vnc client as
 well.
 
 Any input as far as SSH utilities or any other iPhone apps for WISP
 operations would be appreciated.
 
 LaRoy McCann
 Data Technology
 
 
 ---
 ---
 ---
 ---
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 ---
 ---
 ---
 ---
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 
 ---
 ---
 ---
 ---
 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL

2010-03-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I think largely the middle mile funds are wasted. Most areas already have at 
least *some* fiber. The cost, and the problem, is in getting last mile done, 
not middle mile done. From my direct experience and observation, a lot of the 
middle mile projects NTIA is funding is really for redundant fiber. Where it 
isn't redundant it isn't really providing functionality that would help last 
mile access in the projects I've looked at. Worse, the middle mile projects are 
NOT being designed intimately with last mile providers. They are going to key 
community institutions which (1) mostly already have fiber connections and (2) 
really have no impact on where service is needed for last mile access.

Chuck

On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:

 This is why I have said that the stimulus dollars need to go to middle
 milte build outs. Wireless as a last mile medium is very well understood
 and gives best bang for the buck in a lot of scenarios.
 
 Justin Wilson wrote:
I think part of the issue is economies of scale.  Many rural ISPs have
 T1s and T3s at best.  The cost of transport and bandwidth doesn¹t allow them
 to scale as well as they could if they had fiber or some other high capacity
 transport.  With providers such as Cogent well under $10 a meg in bulk you
 can afford to up the speed (providing your network can support it) if you
 have access to such things.
 
I have seen several providers start offering better speeds once they had
 access to a bigger pipe. I know in my area a T1 is still around $450 a
 month.  Get 4 bonded t1s and you are looking at $300 a meg.  If you had
 access to fiber and your transport + bandwidth cost you say $75 a meg you
 could afford to up the subscriber speeds.
 
Just my thoughts.
 
Justin
 
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL

2010-03-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
In my experience,

(1) the problem for rolling out to a new area IS NOT cost of backhaul, it's the 
cost of the equipment. Sure we all like cheaper backhaul, but it doesn't 
prevent a roll out to an unserved area. I'm sure there are exceptions to 
that-but they are going to be very very rare.

(2) the prices I'm seeing for the new backhauls from buildouts funded by NTIA 
are not cheaper than what already exists in an area. Again, I'm sure there are 
exceptions, but I'm willing to bet they are also rare.

As I'm sure you can figure out, I'm not free to disclose which applications I'm 
familiar with.

Chuck


On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:17 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote:

 Citations needed?
 
 I have seen many many many posts on this list discussing/complaining about 
 middle mile/back haul issues including access and expense. 
 
 If the vast majority of wisps have access to sufficient back haul at 
 competive prices then I stand corrected. Do the wisps on this list feel that 
 your back haul needs are being adequately met with existing infestructure? 
 Maybe someone should setup a poll on a website and let wisps vote? 
 
 
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:00:04 
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 I think largely the middle mile funds are wasted. Most areas already have at 
 least *some* fiber. The cost, and the problem, is in getting last mile done, 
 not middle mile done. From my direct experience and observation, a lot of the 
 middle mile projects NTIA is funding is really for redundant fiber. Where it 
 isn't redundant it isn't really providing functionality that would help last 
 mile access in the projects I've looked at. Worse, the middle mile projects 
 are NOT being designed intimately with last mile providers. They are going to 
 key community institutions which (1) mostly already have fiber connections 
 and (2) really have no impact on where service is needed for last mile access.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
 
 This is why I have said that the stimulus dollars need to go to middle
 milte build outs. Wireless as a last mile medium is very well understood
 and gives best bang for the buck in a lot of scenarios.
 
 Justin Wilson wrote:
   I think part of the issue is economies of scale.  Many rural ISPs have
 T1s and T3s at best.  The cost of transport and bandwidth doesn¹t allow them
 to scale as well as they could if they had fiber or some other high capacity
 transport.  With providers such as Cogent well under $10 a meg in bulk you
 can afford to up the speed (providing your network can support it) if you
 have access to such things.
 
   I have seen several providers start offering better speeds once they had
 access to a bigger pipe. I know in my area a T1 is still around $450 a
 month.  Get 4 bonded t1s and you are looking at $300 a meg.  If you had
 access to fiber and your transport + bandwidth cost you say $75 a meg you
 could afford to up the subscriber speeds.
 
   Just my thoughts.
 
   Justin
 
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 --
 Chuck Bartosch
 Clarity Connect, Inc.
 200 Pleasant Grove Road
 Ithaca, NY 14850
 (607) 257-8268
 
 When the stars threw down their spears,
 and water'd heaven with their tears,
 Did He smile, His work to see?
 Did He who made the Lamb make thee?
 
 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger

Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL

2010-03-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I can't use a gig right now. However, to *get* that gig would cost us 
$7000/month for a wavelength on one provider's new network. Suddenly the gig 
that I can't really use isn't cheap at all. The costs for what I *do* use would 
more than double.

Even in the carrier hotels in the bigger cities, bandwidth is not available at 
$1/Mbps. Most quotes, aside from Cogent's end-of-the-year special, are for 
about $8/Mbps (though that'd be for 100 Mbps scale purchases, not gig 
purchases). 

Chuck

On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

 So having a gig transport to $1/megabit transit doesn't deploy access to 
 needed areas?
 
 The middle mile could be built wherever.
 
 The best middle mile project we could see is a hybrid of fiber and wireless. 
 Mostly fiber with fiber or microwave down to clients.
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 --
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:04 PM
 To: char...@knownelement.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 In my experience,
 
 (1) the problem for rolling out to a new area IS NOT cost of backhaul, 
 it's the cost of the equipment. Sure we all like cheaper backhaul, but it 
 doesn't prevent a roll out to an unserved area. I'm sure there are 
 exceptions to that-but they are going to be very very rare.
 
 (2) the prices I'm seeing for the new backhauls from buildouts funded by 
 NTIA are not cheaper than what already exists in an area. Again, I'm sure 
 there are exceptions, but I'm willing to bet they are also rare.
 
 As I'm sure you can figure out, I'm not free to disclose which 
 applications I'm familiar with.
 
 Chuck
 
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:17 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote:
 
 Citations needed?
 
 I have seen many many many posts on this list discussing/complaining 
 about middle mile/back haul issues including access and expense.
 
 If the vast majority of wisps have access to sufficient back haul at 
 competive prices then I stand corrected. Do the wisps on this list feel 
 that your back haul needs are being adequately met with existing 
 infestructure?
 Maybe someone should setup a poll on a website and let wisps vote?
 
 
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:00:04
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 I think largely the middle mile funds are wasted. Most areas already have 
 at least *some* fiber. The cost, and the problem, is in getting last mile 
 done, not middle mile done. From my direct experience and observation, a 
 lot of the middle mile projects NTIA is funding is really for redundant 
 fiber. Where it isn't redundant it isn't really providing functionality 
 that would help last mile access in the projects I've looked at. Worse, 
 the middle mile projects are NOT being designed intimately with last mile 
 providers. They are going to key community institutions which (1) 
 mostly already have fiber connections and (2) really have no impact on 
 where service is needed for last mile access.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
 
 This is why I have said that the stimulus dollars need to go to middle
 milte build outs. Wireless as a last mile medium is very well understood
 and gives best bang for the buck in a lot of scenarios.
 
 Justin Wilson wrote:
  I think part of the issue is economies of scale.  Many rural ISPs 
 have
 T1s and T3s at best.  The cost of transport and bandwidth doesn¹t allow 
 them
 to scale as well as they could if they had fiber or some other high 
 capacity
 transport.  With providers such as Cogent well under $10 a meg in bulk 
 you
 can afford to up the speed (providing your network can support it) if 
 you
 have access to such things.
 
  I have seen several providers start offering better speeds once they 
 had
 access to a bigger pipe. I know in my area a T1 is still around $450 a
 month.  Get 4 bonded t1s and you are looking at $300 a meg.  If you had
 access to fiber and your transport + bandwidth cost you say $75 a meg 
 you
 could afford to up the subscriber speeds.
 
  Just my thoughts.
 
  Justin
 
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 --
 Chuck Bartosch
 Clarity Connect, Inc.
 200 Pleasant Grove Road
 Ithaca, NY 14850
 (607) 257-8268
 
 When the stars threw down their spears,
 and water'd heaven with their tears,
 Did He smile, His work to see?
 Did

Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL

2010-03-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:49 PM, Chuck Bartosch wrote:

 I can't use a gig right now. However, to *get* that gig would cost us 
 $7000/month for a wavelength on one provider's new network. Suddenly the gig 
 that I can't really use isn't cheap at all. The costs for what I *do* use 
 would more than double.
 
 Even in the carrier hotels in the bigger cities, bandwidth is not available 
 at $1/Mbps.

I meant in our area by the way (I'm sure that was obvious, but just in case).

Chuck

 Most quotes, aside from Cogent's end-of-the-year special, are for about 
 $8/Mbps (though that'd be for 100 Mbps scale purchases, not gig purchases). 
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
 
 So having a gig transport to $1/megabit transit doesn't deploy access to 
 needed areas?
 
 The middle mile could be built wherever.
 
 The best middle mile project we could see is a hybrid of fiber and wireless. 
 Mostly fiber with fiber or microwave down to clients.
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 --
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:04 PM
 To: char...@knownelement.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 In my experience,
 
 (1) the problem for rolling out to a new area IS NOT cost of backhaul, 
 it's the cost of the equipment. Sure we all like cheaper backhaul, but it 
 doesn't prevent a roll out to an unserved area. I'm sure there are 
 exceptions to that-but they are going to be very very rare.
 
 (2) the prices I'm seeing for the new backhauls from buildouts funded by 
 NTIA are not cheaper than what already exists in an area. Again, I'm sure 
 there are exceptions, but I'm willing to bet they are also rare.
 
 As I'm sure you can figure out, I'm not free to disclose which 
 applications I'm familiar with.
 
 Chuck
 
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:17 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote:
 
 Citations needed?
 
 I have seen many many many posts on this list discussing/complaining 
 about middle mile/back haul issues including access and expense.
 
 If the vast majority of wisps have access to sufficient back haul at 
 competive prices then I stand corrected. Do the wisps on this list feel 
 that your back haul needs are being adequately met with existing 
 infestructure?
 Maybe someone should setup a poll on a website and let wisps vote?
 
 
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:00:04
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 I think largely the middle mile funds are wasted. Most areas already have 
 at least *some* fiber. The cost, and the problem, is in getting last mile 
 done, not middle mile done. From my direct experience and observation, a 
 lot of the middle mile projects NTIA is funding is really for redundant 
 fiber. Where it isn't redundant it isn't really providing functionality 
 that would help last mile access in the projects I've looked at. Worse, 
 the middle mile projects are NOT being designed intimately with last mile 
 providers. They are going to key community institutions which (1) 
 mostly already have fiber connections and (2) really have no impact on 
 where service is needed for last mile access.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
 
 This is why I have said that the stimulus dollars need to go to middle
 milte build outs. Wireless as a last mile medium is very well understood
 and gives best bang for the buck in a lot of scenarios.
 
 Justin Wilson wrote:
 I think part of the issue is economies of scale.  Many rural ISPs 
 have
 T1s and T3s at best.  The cost of transport and bandwidth doesn¹t allow 
 them
 to scale as well as they could if they had fiber or some other high 
 capacity
 transport.  With providers such as Cogent well under $10 a meg in bulk 
 you
 can afford to up the speed (providing your network can support it) if 
 you
 have access to such things.
 
 I have seen several providers start offering better speeds once they 
 had
 access to a bigger pipe. I know in my area a T1 is still around $450 a
 month.  Get 4 bonded t1s and you are looking at $300 a meg.  If you had
 access to fiber and your transport + bandwidth cost you say $75 a meg 
 you
 could afford to up the subscriber speeds.
 
 Just my thoughts.
 
 Justin
 
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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 --
 Chuck Bartosch
 Clarity Connect, Inc.
 200 Pleasant Grove Road

Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL

2010-03-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Right, I've been as proactive as anyone. However, in our regional rate centers 
those prices simply are not available. And the transport you're being quoted is 
1/10th the rate we're seeing-for a similar distance I might add. And that's 
from one of the Round 1 winners.

Chuck

On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:56 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

 That middle mile would bring that $1 megabit to you more affordably.  If a 
 middle mile project that I'm working with goes through, I'll have 
 $871/month transport for 1 gigabit 60 driving miles into 350 Cermak, one of 
 the top 4 or 5 connected buildings in the country.
 
 Yes, I have personally received multiple $1 and below quotes and I haven't 
 been as proactive as others on this list have been.
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 --
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:49 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 I can't use a gig right now. However, to *get* that gig would cost us 
 $7000/month for a wavelength on one provider's new network. Suddenly the 
 gig that I can't really use isn't cheap at all. The costs for what I *do* 
 use would more than double.
 
 Even in the carrier hotels in the bigger cities, bandwidth is not 
 available at $1/Mbps. Most quotes, aside from Cogent's end-of-the-year 
 special, are for about $8/Mbps (though that'd be for 100 Mbps scale 
 purchases, not gig purchases).
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
 
 So having a gig transport to $1/megabit transit doesn't deploy access to
 needed areas?
 
 The middle mile could be built wherever.
 
 The best middle mile project we could see is a hybrid of fiber and 
 wireless.
 Mostly fiber with fiber or microwave down to clients.
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 --
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:04 PM
 To: char...@knownelement.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 In my experience,
 
 (1) the problem for rolling out to a new area IS NOT cost of backhaul,
 it's the cost of the equipment. Sure we all like cheaper backhaul, but 
 it
 doesn't prevent a roll out to an unserved area. I'm sure there are
 exceptions to that-but they are going to be very very rare.
 
 (2) the prices I'm seeing for the new backhauls from buildouts funded by
 NTIA are not cheaper than what already exists in an area. Again, I'm 
 sure
 there are exceptions, but I'm willing to bet they are also rare.
 
 As I'm sure you can figure out, I'm not free to disclose which
 applications I'm familiar with.
 
 Chuck
 
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:17 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote:
 
 Citations needed?
 
 I have seen many many many posts on this list discussing/complaining
 about middle mile/back haul issues including access and expense.
 
 If the vast majority of wisps have access to sufficient back haul at
 competive prices then I stand corrected. Do the wisps on this list feel
 that your back haul needs are being adequately met with existing
 infestructure?
 Maybe someone should setup a poll on a website and let wisps vote?
 
 
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:00:04
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 I think largely the middle mile funds are wasted. Most areas already 
 have
 at least *some* fiber. The cost, and the problem, is in getting last 
 mile
 done, not middle mile done. From my direct experience and observation, 
 a
 lot of the middle mile projects NTIA is funding is really for redundant
 fiber. Where it isn't redundant it isn't really providing functionality
 that would help last mile access in the projects I've looked at. Worse,
 the middle mile projects are NOT being designed intimately with last 
 mile
 providers. They are going to key community institutions which (1)
 mostly already have fiber connections and (2) really have no impact on
 where service is needed for last mile access.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
 
 This is why I have said that the stimulus dollars need to go to middle
 milte build outs. Wireless as a last mile medium is very well 
 understood
 and gives best bang for the buck in a lot of scenarios.
 
 Justin Wilson wrote:
 I think part of the issue is economies of scale.  Many rural ISPs
 have
 T1s and T3s at best.  The cost of transport and bandwidth doesn¹t 
 allow
 them
 to scale as well as they could if they had fiber or some other high
 capacity
 transport.  With providers such as Cogent well under $10 a meg in 
 bulk
 you
 can afford to up the speed (providing your network can

Re: [WISPA] Here comes the really BIG WAVE

2010-03-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
If I go out and shoot a deer, I took it's life (and it's meat ;-). If I give 
you some, I'm giving you some, whether or not I took it from someone else. If 
you're my kid and I give you bread, I'm giving it to you whether or not I paid 
for it or I broke into a store and stole it.

Chuck

On Mar 16, 2010, at 8:55 PM, RickG wrote:

 websters.com
 –give (used with object)
 1.to present voluntarily and without expecting compensation; bestow:
 to give a birthday present to someone.
 
 The government cant give anything because they get the money to pay
 for such things from us, the US taxpayer. They simply take and
 transfer ownership.
 
 On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote:
 Chuck,
 
 Thanks. You just reminded me that the government gave us the Internet too.
 From Wikipedia -
 
 The origins of the Internet reach back to the 1960s when the United States
 funded research projects of its military agencies to build robust,
 fault-tolerant and distributed computer networks. This research and a period
 of civilian funding of a new U.S. backbone by the National Science
 Foundation spawned worldwide participation in the development of new
 networking technologies and led to the commercialization of an international
 network in the mid 1990s, and resulted in the following popularization of
 countless applications in virtually every aspect of modern human life. As of
 2009, an estimated quarter of Earth's population uses the services of the
 Internet.
 
 jack
 
 
 Chuck Bartosch wrote:
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 2:27 AM, MDK wrote:
 
 
 
 Government Gave me my life?   Really?
 
 Telephone?   Until we got the government out of it, it was horrendously
 expensive and advanced none at all.
 
 
 That isn't really true Mark. Before the government got involved you had
 multiple non-interworking telephone systems. I remember my grandfather
 telling me when I was young that people had to have a red telephone and a
 blue telephone in Minneapolis where we grew up for the two phone companies
 if you wanted to be able to call everyone with a phone. Talk about
 horrendously expensive (and not just in cost, but in time). Government
 forced a monopoly situation that for many many decades worked to our
 advantage. Eventually that was broken up when it no longer served the
 public's interest.
 
 I also remember that friends who travelled around the world coming back
 always commenting about how much more advanced and how much more reliable
 our telecom systems were than anyone else's.
 
 And no advances? Geeze, when I was a kid everyone I knew had party lines.
 Not long before that you had operators connecting calls. There were a LOT of
 advances given the core technology that was available.
 
 It is hard to see just what kind of other advances you could have had in the
 30's, 40's, 50's and early 60's. The internet wasn't possible back then
 because home computers didn't exist and the protocols that allowed it to
 emerge didn't exist.
 
 It wasn't until the later 60's that transistors really became viable and
 allowed a lot of the dynamic advances that breaking the monopoly enabled.
 Yes, it took a decade or two to undo the the regulatory environment that by
 that point WAS holding back progress, but I respectfully submit that doing
 it decades earlier than that would have had no particular beneficial effect
 and the original intervention was hugely beneficial.
 
 Reflexively painting everything government does as bad is simplistic though
 has the benefit that it doesn't take a lot of thought. But it's a disservice
 to your own arguments and restricts your ability to influence debate and the
 position of others. It might be more useful to take a more balanced view
 that more accurately reflects reality.
 
 Chuck
 
 
 
  Now, we have services that WERE NOT
 EVEN CONCEIVABLE to me the year I got married.   We've come that far since
 then.
 
 Copper to my house?   Obsolete.
 
 Long distance?I haven't paid that in years. All it took was someone
 with a big enough club to force government to undo what it did for us.
 It could be so cheap and so competitive the cost would be trivial, but no,
 the pointy headed trolls in DC have to give us stuff.
 
 You know what?   I lived for years far beyond the end of the power and phone
 lines.   Guess what?   No big loss.If we'd not subsidized bad ideas for
 so long, real innovation would have started LONG LONG LONG ago, to solve
 problems with real solutions, instead of cementing the past into stone with
 good intentions.
 
 
 
 ++
 Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
 541-969-8200  509-386-4589
 ++
 
 --
 From: Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.com
 Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 11:02 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Here comes the really BIG WAVE
 
 
 
 Your life? Telephone? Rural Utilities?
 
 On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:31

Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL

2010-03-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
But He.net isn't in Syracuse so that doesn't do me a whole lot of good. They 
aren't in Binghamton either. Nor are they in Rochester (which is really too far 
but is the next closest meet point).

Chuck

On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:21 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote:

 He.net will do $1 per Meg with 1 gig minimum commit. 
 
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:49:09 
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 I can't use a gig right now. However, to *get* that gig would cost us 
 $7000/month for a wavelength on one provider's new network. Suddenly the gig 
 that I can't really use isn't cheap at all. The costs for what I *do* use 
 would more than double.
 
 Even in the carrier hotels in the bigger cities, bandwidth is not available 
 at $1/Mbps. Most quotes, aside from Cogent's end-of-the-year special, are for 
 about $8/Mbps (though that'd be for 100 Mbps scale purchases, not gig 
 purchases). 
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
 
 So having a gig transport to $1/megabit transit doesn't deploy access to 
 needed areas?
 
 The middle mile could be built wherever.
 
 The best middle mile project we could see is a hybrid of fiber and wireless. 
 Mostly fiber with fiber or microwave down to clients.
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 --
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:04 PM
 To: char...@knownelement.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 In my experience,
 
 (1) the problem for rolling out to a new area IS NOT cost of backhaul, 
 it's the cost of the equipment. Sure we all like cheaper backhaul, but it 
 doesn't prevent a roll out to an unserved area. I'm sure there are 
 exceptions to that-but they are going to be very very rare.
 
 (2) the prices I'm seeing for the new backhauls from buildouts funded by 
 NTIA are not cheaper than what already exists in an area. Again, I'm sure 
 there are exceptions, but I'm willing to bet they are also rare.
 
 As I'm sure you can figure out, I'm not free to disclose which 
 applications I'm familiar with.
 
 Chuck
 
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:17 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote:
 
 Citations needed?
 
 I have seen many many many posts on this list discussing/complaining 
 about middle mile/back haul issues including access and expense.
 
 If the vast majority of wisps have access to sufficient back haul at 
 competive prices then I stand corrected. Do the wisps on this list feel 
 that your back haul needs are being adequately met with existing 
 infestructure?
 Maybe someone should setup a poll on a website and let wisps vote?
 
 
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:00:04
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
 
 I think largely the middle mile funds are wasted. Most areas already have 
 at least *some* fiber. The cost, and the problem, is in getting last mile 
 done, not middle mile done. From my direct experience and observation, a 
 lot of the middle mile projects NTIA is funding is really for redundant 
 fiber. Where it isn't redundant it isn't really providing functionality 
 that would help last mile access in the projects I've looked at. Worse, 
 the middle mile projects are NOT being designed intimately with last mile 
 providers. They are going to key community institutions which (1) 
 mostly already have fiber connections and (2) really have no impact on 
 where service is needed for last mile access.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
 
 This is why I have said that the stimulus dollars need to go to middle
 milte build outs. Wireless as a last mile medium is very well understood
 and gives best bang for the buck in a lot of scenarios.
 
 Justin Wilson wrote:
 I think part of the issue is economies of scale.  Many rural ISPs 
 have
 T1s and T3s at best.  The cost of transport and bandwidth doesn¹t allow 
 them
 to scale as well as they could if they had fiber or some other high 
 capacity
 transport.  With providers such as Cogent well under $10 a meg in bulk 
 you
 can afford to up the speed (providing your network can support it) if 
 you
 have access to such things.
 
 I have seen several providers start offering better speeds once they 
 had
 access to a bigger pipe. I know in my area a T1 is still around $450 a
 month.  Get 4 bonded t1s and you are looking at $300 a meg.  If you had
 access to fiber and your transport + bandwidth cost you say $75 a meg 
 you
 could afford to up the subscriber speeds.
 
 Just my thoughts.
 
 Justin

Re: [WISPA] here it come$

2010-03-13 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:20 PM, RickG wrote:

 Actually, yes, this is the first I've heard about it. Obviously, I'm
 not a sports fan :)

I was initially surprised you hadn't heard of it before too because you're 
pretty active on list and it's been discussed numerous times and in detail over 
the past 15 months but maybe it was on another list (the WISPA members list?). 
Or, like the Form 477 discussions a few years ago that I personally skipped 
over for a long time, maybe it was just an ignored thread topic (given our 
propensity to not start new threads for new topics, that wouldn't be 
surprising). Most of us heard of it either due to customer complaints or 
because of the list discussion.

For what it's worth, I honestly don't think the industry will ever move en-mass 
to a pay-by-the-bit model. True, it makes the most sense from an operator 
standpoint, but it's just too easy to get undercut by a competitor who doesn't 
do it, the big companies that would have to do it first for it to go mainstream 
invariably chicken out too quickly or mess it up by doing it in a high-handed 
fashion that pisses everyone off, or politicians will get involved to defeat 
the model. That's *my* prediction.

Chuck

 I've never had a customer request. I've have mixed feelings about
 this. Coming from the cable world, I was used to paying providers for
 channel content. The difference was, we didnt have to pay for
 bandwidth. Now, everyone wants to ride the bandwidth that we pay for
 to get to our customer. Maybe big bad ESPN should pay us?
 .05/sub/month doesnt sound like much but it adds up real fast. Worse
 yet, you still pay even though not everyone wants or needs it. Oh, and
 just what we need, another paper to fill out.
 I've been predicting since '97 that we'll have to charge the billing
 model to charge by the bit and that day is getting closer each time
 things like this occur.
 -RickG
 BTW: I did dial-up back in '93 and never paid for a TCP/IP stack or
 the Browser :)
 
 On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Tim Sylvester t...@avanzarnetworks.com 
 wrote:
 I'm confused by this message. Are you saying you just heard of ESPN360? It
 has been around since 2007.
 
 How much do you think big bad ESPN charges for ESPN360? I have seen
 estimates between $0.05/sub/month to $0.25/sub/month. As far as I can tell,
 any ISP can contact ESPN and sign-up to offer ESPN360 to their subscribers.
 Here's a link to the current list of ISPs offering ESPN360:
 http://espn.go.com/broadband/espn360/affList. The list of providers ranges
 from ATT and Verizon each with over 10M subs. Down to the Spencer Iowa
 Municipal Utilities and Spruce Knob Seneca Rocks Telephone, each with a few
 thousand subs.
 
 The list includes cable, DSL and FTTH ISPs. The only thing that might
 prevent a WISP from offering ESPN360 is bandwidth.
 
 ESPN360 is just an add-on service that an ISP can bundle with their service
 offerings to customers. Think of it like offering e-mail accounts or web
 sites. In the mid 90s, ISPs had to pay to provide a TCP/IP stack and a web
 browser to their customers.
 
 If the WISPA members think ESPN360 would be a useful to offer their
 customers, have someone contact ESPN to see if you can negotiate an ESPN360
 contract for all WISPA members.
 
 Tim
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of RickG
 Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 10:57 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] here it come$
 
 The television content providers are going to bill ISP's?
 Try using ESPN Live 360 and see what it tells you.
 -RickG
 
 
 ---
 -
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 ---
 -
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven

Re: [WISPA] here it come$

2010-03-13 Thread Chuck Bartosch
chuckle Well, for what it's worth I hope *you* are right and *I* am wrong 
;-). Damn I hate betting against the outcome I _want_ to see!

Chuck

On Mar 13, 2010, at 11:37 AM, RickG wrote:

 Chuck,
 
 You're perceptive on the reasons I didnt hear of it, I probably just
 didnt pay attention as it didnt seem to apply or it just got lost in
 all the topics.
 
 As I've mentioned before, I did pay by the bit back in '98 when I
 was GM at a small cable co. I only imposed it on bandwidth hogs and it
 worked well. The reason I havent switched to it with this company is
 that so far its not worth the hassle.
 
 With that said, I'll see your prediction and raise you:)
 TCP/IP will eventually be the only pipe for all communications. Once
 that happens, the cable co will utilize their billing model for
 television. It may not be bill by the bit but they will certainly
 charge a premium for advanced services.
 
 -RickG
 
 On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Chuck Bartosch
 ch...@clarityconnect.com wrote:
 
 On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:20 PM, RickG wrote:
 
 Actually, yes, this is the first I've heard about it. Obviously, I'm
 not a sports fan :)
 
 I was initially surprised you hadn't heard of it before too because you're 
 pretty active on list and it's been discussed numerous times and in detail 
 over the past 15 months but maybe it was on another list (the WISPA members 
 list?). Or, like the Form 477 discussions a few years ago that I personally 
 skipped over for a long time, maybe it was just an ignored thread topic 
 (given our propensity to not start new threads for new topics, that wouldn't 
 be surprising). Most of us heard of it either due to customer complaints or 
 because of the list discussion.
 
 For what it's worth, I honestly don't think the industry will ever move 
 en-mass to a pay-by-the-bit model. True, it makes the most sense from an 
 operator standpoint, but it's just too easy to get undercut by a competitor 
 who doesn't do it, the big companies that would have to do it first for it 
 to go mainstream invariably chicken out too quickly or mess it up by doing 
 it in a high-handed fashion that pisses everyone off, or politicians will 
 get involved to defeat the model. That's *my* prediction.
 
 Chuck
 
 I've never had a customer request. I've have mixed feelings about
 this. Coming from the cable world, I was used to paying providers for
 channel content. The difference was, we didnt have to pay for
 bandwidth. Now, everyone wants to ride the bandwidth that we pay for
 to get to our customer. Maybe big bad ESPN should pay us?
 .05/sub/month doesnt sound like much but it adds up real fast. Worse
 yet, you still pay even though not everyone wants or needs it. Oh, and
 just what we need, another paper to fill out.
 I've been predicting since '97 that we'll have to charge the billing
 model to charge by the bit and that day is getting closer each time
 things like this occur.
 -RickG
 BTW: I did dial-up back in '93 and never paid for a TCP/IP stack or
 the Browser :)
 
 On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Tim Sylvester t...@avanzarnetworks.com 
 wrote:
 I'm confused by this message. Are you saying you just heard of ESPN360? It
 has been around since 2007.
 
 How much do you think big bad ESPN charges for ESPN360? I have seen
 estimates between $0.05/sub/month to $0.25/sub/month. As far as I can tell,
 any ISP can contact ESPN and sign-up to offer ESPN360 to their subscribers.
 Here's a link to the current list of ISPs offering ESPN360:
 http://espn.go.com/broadband/espn360/affList. The list of providers ranges
 from ATT and Verizon each with over 10M subs. Down to the Spencer Iowa
 Municipal Utilities and Spruce Knob Seneca Rocks Telephone, each with a few
 thousand subs.
 
 The list includes cable, DSL and FTTH ISPs. The only thing that might
 prevent a WISP from offering ESPN360 is bandwidth.
 
 ESPN360 is just an add-on service that an ISP can bundle with their service
 offerings to customers. Think of it like offering e-mail accounts or web
 sites. In the mid 90s, ISPs had to pay to provide a TCP/IP stack and a web
 browser to their customers.
 
 If the WISPA members think ESPN360 would be a useful to offer their
 customers, have someone contact ESPN to see if you can negotiate an ESPN360
 contract for all WISPA members.
 
 Tim
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of RickG
 Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 10:57 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] here it come$
 
 The television content providers are going to bill ISP's?
 Try using ESPN Live 360 and see what it tells you.
 -RickG
 
 
 ---
 -
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 ---
 -
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Re: [WISPA] iPhone ssh app

2010-03-12 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Yeah, I haven't found tethering to make all that much sense either. My gf has 
her iPhone jail broken, but honestly, I think she does it just because she 
can...I haven't seen her do anything with it that actually mattered. I haven't 
had a problem doing anything I needed (or wanted) to do without jail breaking.

I also have a Droid at the moment, but damn, I'll tell you, it's a annoying as 
hell in comparison. And I really hate the little feedback vibration every time 
I touch one of the permanent keys (maybe that can be turned off-I haven't taken 
the time to delve too much into the options yet). I'll keep using it for a few 
more days but so far it doesn't compare, even though Verizon's 3G coverage IS a 
little but broader out this way (but, it's not as much broader as I'd thought 
it was supposed to be).

However, if I didn't have the iPhone as an option, I'd probably love the Droid. 
Sure beats what I used to use, even if it doesn't quite meet (for me) the 
iPhone standards. As always with this kind of thing, I'm sure YMMV.

Chuck

On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:04 PM, Data Technology wrote:

 Justin Wilson wrote:
The only benefit I have seen so far of Jailbreaking an iphone is being
 able to tether it.   Every App I have wanted to run I can find in the store.
 
Justin
 
 I had thought that would be a great thing to have, then I could connect 
 the laptop and have a bigger screen and kbd to browse with.
 But around here I don't have 3g available, so ATT is slow for the internet.
 
 I then thought that I could just use a wi-fi connection (surly I could 
 find one of those!) but then I thought, you big dummy, if I can get a 
 wi-fi connection on the phone to tether to the laptop then I could just 
 connect to the wi-fi with the laptop ;)
 
 So I dont't think I really need tethering.
 
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
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 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
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Re: [WISPA] USF Changes

2010-03-06 Thread Chuck Bartosch
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] USF Changes

2010-03-06 Thread Chuck Bartosch
://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100305/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_fcc_universal_service;_ylt=AgSGtpiLKKQbXooR3LKvT.cPLBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTMzNGcwMmcyBGFzc2V0Ay9hcC8yMDEwMDMwNS9hcF9vbl9oaV90ZS91c190ZWNfZmNjX3VuaXZlcnNhbF9zZXJ2aWNlBHBvcwM3BHNlYwN5bl90b21ic3RvbmUEc2xrA2ZjY3RvcHJvcG9zZQ--
 
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Re: [WISPA] BIP/BTOP

2010-03-02 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I don't see anything about that listed on broadbandusa.gov. The only posting 
for today is the latest winners from round one. Where are you looking?

Chuck

On Mar 2, 2010, at 11:51 AM, ccoo...@intelliwave.com wrote:

 For those of you following the game, BB USA advises that they have  
 extended the deadline on both BIP and BTOP applications.
 
 Chris Cooper
 Intelliwave
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] BIP/BTOP

2010-03-02 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Odd, it's not in the press releases updates section...but it IS in the FAQ!

Thanks Chris!

Chuck

On Mar 2, 2010, at 11:51 AM, ccoo...@intelliwave.com wrote:

 For those of you following the game, BB USA advises that they have  
 extended the deadline on both BIP and BTOP applications.
 
 Chris Cooper
 Intelliwave
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] BIP/BTOP

2010-03-02 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Monday, March 29th for BIP and Friday, March 26th for BTOP (for the 
infrastructure builds that WISPs would be concerned with).

Chuck

On Mar 2, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Jack Unger wrote:

 What's the new date?
 
 Chuck Bartosch wrote:
 
 Odd, it's not in the press releases updates section...but it IS in the FAQ!
 
 Thanks Chris!
 
 Chuck
 
 On Mar 2, 2010, at 11:51 AM, ccoo...@intelliwave.com wrote:
 
   
 For those of you following the game, BB USA advises that they have  
 extended the deadline on both BIP and BTOP applications.
 
 Chris Cooper
 Intelliwave
 
 
 This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
 
 
 
 
 
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 When the stars threw down their spears,
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 Did He smile, His work to see?
 Did He who made the Lamb make thee?
 
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Re: [WISPA] Reminder - 477 Utility

2010-03-01 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Where is the utility again?

Chuck

On Mar 1, 2010, at 12:33 PM, Cameron Crum wrote:

 To date only a handful of people have used the FCC utility we posted the 
 other day. I'm surprised given the discussion that went on two weeks ago 
 about the issue. If you are having trouble or need help with getting 
 this going, please feel free to email me at cc...@wispmon.com or just 
 call us 817-764-0956 if you have questions or problems. It's raining 
 here today so I'll be around. Remember, the filing is due today.
 
 Cameron
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Buying co-op

2010-02-27 Thread Chuck Bartosch
It's been a very active topic recently on the WISPA member list.

Chuck

On Feb 27, 2010, at 1:58 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:

 I'm sure this has been brought up or may already be one, but has  
 anyone thought of starting a buying co-op between several wisps to  
 pool the buying power and get bulk rates. I run into businesses all  
 the time that participate in things like this to be able to buy like  
 the big guys.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] new FCC report out

2010-02-24 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Or how many people think they have fiber access to the Internet because they 
have cable. We all know the cable companies upgraded their networks to fiber a 
few years ago, right?

Chuck

On Feb 24, 2010, at 8:40 AM, Bret Clark wrote:

 On Tue, 2010-02-23 at 13:21 -0600, David E. Smith wrote:
 
 
 
 For all we know, most of these folks think that since cousin Jed fixed 'em
 up a wireless router, that's fixed wireless.
 
 David Smith
 MVN.net
 
 
 Yup...can't even begin to tell you  that when I worked at a CLEC how
 many customers thought they had a wireless Internet connection because
 we'd provide them a wi-fi Linksys CPE. I'd tell them they have a DSL
 connection and they would say something to the effect yes and the
 wireless DSL is not working.  It's not much different then when you
 tell someone on cable they have a copper Internet connection and
 inevitably they will argue with you that they don't get their Internet
 on copper, they get it through their cable company...can't tell you home
 many times I've gotten that argument :)! 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Regulators may drop broadband line-sharing bombshell

2010-02-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I actually have a tape of that statement from the Cable Show in Washington last 
spring where it was being recommended as sound strategy to cable companies.

Chuck

On Feb 16, 2010, at 5:07 PM, David Hulsebus wrote:

 Not sure it would be good, maybe.
 
 It made me think of a post last year where the president of a cable 
 company discussed providing middle mile to their competitors. I 
 paraphrase  We know who is growing, and who is not; we know what and 
 where their need is, and when we want to we can cut them off. 
 
 I'm not sure I want to buy from my direct competition.
 
 Dave Hulsebus
 
 Scottie Arnett wrote:
  
 http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/02/regulators-may-drop-broadband-line-sharing-bombshell.ars?utm_source=rssutm_medium=rssutm_campaign=rss
  
 
 Could be good?
 
 Scottie
 
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Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulation of net-neutrality

2010-02-05 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Feb 5, 2010, at 9:02 AM, Jeff Broadwick wrote:
 make campaigns post their contributions on the
 internet. 

That's already available if the donation is over $99.

Chuck







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Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulation of net-neutrality

2010-02-05 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:34 AM, RickG wrote:

 Jack, The only companies that can do whatever they want to you whenever
 they want to do it are the ones given a monopoly and power by guess who -
 big government! So, where is the problem? Is it the companies or the
 government?

That statement completely ignores history. The tendency of any unconstrained 
capitalist is to form a monopoly. Hell, *I'd* do it if I could ;-). And 
unconstrained capitalism that achieves a monopoly rarely acts in its customers 
own best interests.

If nothing else, it's in our society's interest to prevent monopolies because 
innovation stagnates in a monoploy situation.

Some restraint by government is necessary to keep the system from damaging 
itself. Part of your argument is specious since by definition once government 
restrains most monopolies, the only ones left are the ones it allows (but 
there's no real content in that statement). There are very few created 
monopolies (mail still and phones from a long time ago being two of them).

Chuck


 
 On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote:
 
 So, now that government has been drowned, the huge banks, insurance
 companies, telecoms can do whatever they want to you whenever they want to
 do it.
 
 BWh, haaa, h, haaa, hh
 
 
 Frank Crawford wrote:
 
 YES
 
 Jack Unger wrote:
 
 
 I trust that government will be able to keep up just fine. Do you
 support the alternative of making government so small that you can drown
 it in a bathtub?
 
 Glenn Kelley wrote:
 
 
 
 Title II of the Communications Act—the section that regulates 
 telecommunications common carriers is now being considered by the FCC to 
 oversee broadband.  FCC Commissioner Robert M. McDowell during a talk he 
 gave to the Free State Foundation asked:  (see First Do No Harm: A broadband 
 plan for Amercia)
 “Exactly what kind of companies might get tangled up into this regulatory 
 Rubik’s Cube?…Any Internet company that offers a voice application?” … “With 
 this newfound authority, why stop at voice apps? Isn’t voice just another 
 type of data app? As the distinction between network operators and 
 application providers continues to blur at an eye-popping rate, how will the 
 government be able to keep up?”
 
 
 Much more on the blog:   www.HostMedic.com --
 _
 Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com
  Email: gl...@hostmedic.com
 Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
 
 
 
 
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When the stars threw down their spears,
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Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's rolein regulationof net-neutrality

2010-02-05 Thread Chuck Bartosch
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Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC'srolein regulationof net-neutrality

2010-02-05 Thread Chuck Bartosch
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Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulation of net-neutrality

2010-02-05 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Yep, I agree with your statement (which was well put).

Chuck

On Feb 5, 2010, at 11:18 AM, Matt Liotta wrote:

 
 On Feb 5, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Chuck Bartosch wrote:
 
 That statement completely ignores history. The tendency of any unconstrained 
 capitalist is to form a monopoly. Hell, *I'd* do it if I could ;-). And 
 unconstrained capitalism that achieves a monopoly rarely acts in its 
 customers own best interests.
 
 If nothing else, it's in our society's interest to prevent monopolies 
 because innovation stagnates in a monoploy situation.
 
 It should be every capitalist desire to become a monopolist. The government's 
 role should be to encourage businesses to innovate and grow towards being a 
 monopoly while hoping the market has sufficient competition to stop that 
 ultimate result. If not, then step in to prevent the monopoly from abusing 
 its position. The government must only set the rules of the game and ensure 
 market fairness through their rules. The government shouldn't participate in 
 the market either with its own entity or by picking winners and losers 
 through its actions.
 
 -Matt
 
 
 
 
 
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When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulation of net-neutrality

2010-02-05 Thread Chuck Bartosch
The restraint is government. How do you restrain capitalism without the 
restraint of laws, including those that restrain monopolies?

The implication of saying the only companies that have monopolies are the ones 
that government gives monopolies to is that without government monopolies, and 
without government interference, there would be no monopolies. I'm saying that 
government *has* to play a role in restraining capitalism from self-destructing.

There's no question in my mind that I want as much freedom as possible...but I 
fully realize that if I'm given complete freedom to do as I want, I'll do 
things that are bad for me. Or bad for everyone else anyway. That's why wives 
and girlfriends are good for those of us who are men. Or for those of us who 
are women too I suppose ;-).

Chuck

On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:48 PM, RickG wrote:

 Chuck, where did I say unrestrained? The rest of my post is questions. So,
 I agree with your reply in as much as that nobody should be unrestrained. As
 far as history, to what do you refer to?
 -RickG
 
 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Chuck Bartosch 
 ch...@clarityconnect.comwrote:
 
 
 On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:34 AM, RickG wrote:
 
 Jack, The only companies that can do whatever they want to you whenever
 they want to do it are the ones given a monopoly and power by guess who
 -
 big government! So, where is the problem? Is it the companies or the
 government?
 
 That statement completely ignores history. The tendency of any
 unconstrained capitalist is to form a monopoly. Hell, *I'd* do it if I could
 ;-). And unconstrained capitalism that achieves a monopoly rarely acts in
 its customers own best interests.
 
 If nothing else, it's in our society's interest to prevent monopolies
 because innovation stagnates in a monoploy situation.
 
 Some restraint by government is necessary to keep the system from damaging
 itself. Part of your argument is specious since by definition once
 government restrains most monopolies, the only ones left are the ones it
 allows (but there's no real content in that statement). There are very few
 created monopolies (mail still and phones from a long time ago being two of
 them).
 
 Chuck
 
 
 
 On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote:
 
 So, now that government has been drowned, the huge banks, insurance
 companies, telecoms can do whatever they want to you whenever they want
 to
 do it.
 
 BWh, haaa, h, haaa, hh
 
 
 Frank Crawford wrote:
 
 YES
 
 Jack Unger wrote:
 
 
 I trust that government will be able to keep up just fine. Do you
 support the alternative of making government so small that you can drown
 it in a bathtub?
 
 Glenn Kelley wrote:
 
 
 
 Title II of the Communications Act—the section that regulates
 telecommunications common carriers is now being considered by the FCC to
 oversee broadband.  FCC Commissioner Robert M. McDowell during a talk he
 gave to the Free State Foundation asked:  (see First Do No Harm: A broadband
 plan for Amercia)
 “Exactly what kind of companies might get tangled up into this
 regulatory Rubik’s Cube?…Any Internet company that offers a voice
 application?” … “With this newfound authority, why stop at voice apps? Isn’t
 voice just another type of data app? As the distinction between network
 operators and application providers continues to blur at an eye-popping
 rate, how will the government be able to keep up?”
 
 
 Much more on the blog:   www.HostMedic.com --
 
 _
 Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com
 Email: gl...@hostmedic.com
 Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
 
 
 
 
 
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 --
 Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
 Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing
 Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since
 1993www.ask-wi.com  818-227-4220  jun...@ask-wi.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulation of net-neutrality

2010-02-05 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I agree-I've worked for essential monopolies (like defense contractors). Or 
maybe it's just big companies. In any case, the waste boggled my mind.

To be clear my natural tendency is to want to own a market. However, I also 
recognize that you can't ever really do that, and if you do, no matter how good 
you are, people hate you because you're their only choice. If they have even a 
bad choice, you're fine, but they have to have a reasonable choice.

I've seen examples of significant abuse of market position in a past life 
from the inside (which I won't enumerate for fear of legal repercussions, 
though the details are pretty fascinating, to me anyways...). What's 
interesting to me though is that the perpetrating company in this case is today 
ridiculed for its lack of innovation and not leading markets anymore.

In other words, even though I believe the governments anti-monopoly powers are 
important, in this case I think the market corrected itself. Those abusive 
positions become addictive and then destructive.

Chuck

On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:10 PM, RickG wrote:

 Then I fail your test. I dont want a monopoly. In th epast, I've worked for
 both electric and phone companies and all it breeds is laziness and waste.
 In competitive markets, I find the challenge invigorating. -RickG
 
 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com wrote:
 
 
 On Feb 5, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Chuck Bartosch wrote:
 
 That statement completely ignores history. The tendency of any
 unconstrained capitalist is to form a monopoly. Hell, *I'd* do it if I could
 ;-). And unconstrained capitalism that achieves a monopoly rarely acts in
 its customers own best interests.
 
 If nothing else, it's in our society's interest to prevent monopolies
 because innovation stagnates in a monoploy situation.
 
 It should be every capitalist desire to become a monopolist. The
 government's role should be to encourage businesses to innovate and grow
 towards being a monopoly while hoping the market has sufficient competition
 to stop that ultimate result. If not, then step in to prevent the monopoly
 from abusing its position. The government must only set the rules of the
 game and ensure market fairness through their rules. The government
 shouldn't participate in the market either with its own entity or by picking
 winners and losers through its actions.
 
 -Matt
 
 
 
 
 
 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulation of net-neutrality

2010-02-05 Thread Chuck Bartosch
 --
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _
 
 Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com
 
Email: gl...@hostmedic.com
 
 Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 
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 -- 
 Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
 Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing
 Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 
 1993
 www.ask-wi.com  818-227-4220  jun...@ask-wi.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's rolein regulationof net-neutrality

2010-02-05 Thread Chuck Bartosch
On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:13 PM, RickG wrote:

 Now they dont fist fight, they pull out the guns and shoot ya! Are you
saying things are better now?

LOL! Well, you DO have a point there, depending on where you live ;-).

The problem with the arguments on either side of this (and I thought about this 
as I replied) is that we're not just one group with one set of mores and one 
set way of doing things or one outlook. 50 or 60 years ago *maybe* it was 
easier, but it's pretty hard now. Though the battles with the mobs in places 
like Chicago do spring to mind from even back then...

Where I come from, even though practically everyone had a gun, it was pretty 
much unthinkable to shoot a *person* with it unless it was a home invasion (and 
those never really happened that I ever knew).

On the other hand, if you were in a gang in a prototypical inner city...well, 
let's just say that culture is very very different. So, making generalized 
statements, even the ones I made are always false in some sense.

The one thing that I forgot to say before though was that in those early books, 
editorials, etc. that I read, what amazed me was the level of the vocabulary 
they used back then. It was sooo much larger than what is used now that it 
boggled my mind. It wasn't just a different set of words...it was a larger set 
of words.

Chuck

On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:13 PM, RickG wrote:

 Now they dont fist fight, they pull out the guns and shoot ya! Are you
 saying things are better now?
 
 On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Chuck Bartosch 
 ch...@clarityconnect.comwrote:
 
 
 On Feb 5, 2010, at 10:17 AM, Scottie Arnett wrote:
 
 I am not going to go into the political side, but what this country needs
 more than anything IMHO is the moral and ethical standards that were in this
 country 50 to 60 years ago.
 
 Funny you should say that.
 
 I did some reading when I was a kid from books written from 1910 to 1935.
 Admittedly, I was an odd kid to be fascinated by how people saw the world 40
 to 60 years earlier (this was the mid-to-late 1970's). The statements you're
 making here were almost exactly what people were saying then about
 generations that preceded them.
 
 Also, I spent a great deal of time talking to my grandfather (and later
 some of his friends) about what life was like when he grew up (born in 1913)
 and his experiences in the great depression (he worked in the CCC camps and
 was a train-vagabound, traveling across the country). They spent a LOT of
 time unemployed and just causing trouble or getting into trouble. Heavy
 drinking was much more accepted then than now.
 
 There are some interesting things that HAVE changed a lot since then.
 
 People got into fist fights a heck of a lot more easily back then ;-).
 
 There was a much greater sense of belonging to a neighborhood then compared
 to now. I see that as a loss but probably unavoidable.
 
 Moral and ethical standards have shifted some, but if anything, they are
 higher now. For example, people thought nothing of calling blacks the
 n-word and segregating them from whites. The definition of what is white
 itself has greatly expanded.
 
 This has changed even since I was a kid. I remember when in the 1960's we
 were moving from an all-catholic, white neighborhood, that we got obscene
 phone calls and rocks through our windows when a black family made an offer
 on our house (which we intended to accept until a neighbor topped their
 offer by 10%) to keep the house 'white'). If you don't see this as a
 dramatic, and important, shift in morals/ethics then I don't know what is. I
 see this as strongly positive.
 
 The level of volunteerism amongst men seems to be a lot higher now than it
 was then. Women being in the working world has decreased their
 participation, but I would count that as a higher level of ethics among men
 (because it represents a greater level of consciousness, not just a greater
 amount of time) and neutral among women. I see this as strongly positive.
 
 Men 50 and 60 years ago thought nothing about bingeing with the guys Friday
 nights (or every night). Abuse of drugs (including alcohol) has waxed and
 wained over time but is certainly lower now than it was 40 years ago, for
 example. Though I'm sure that still happens, it's really not considered
 normal any more. I see this as a strong change in morals/ethics.
 
 I'd honestly hate to see a world that reverted to the morals and ethics of
 50 to 60 years ago. Maybe people worked harder (but I doubt it-EVERYONE I
 know words hard now, even with all the other things that compete for our
 attention) but as a society, discrimination was rampant, there wasn't nearly
 so many opportunities for upward mobility, men and women weren't treated
 nearly as equally, etc. We're not in such a bad place now.
 
 Chuck
 
 
 Scottie
 
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Fri, 5 Feb 2010

Re: [WISPA] Follow up article

2010-02-02 Thread Chuck Bartosch
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Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ

2010-01-21 Thread Chuck Bartosch
 
 
 
 
 
 
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200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ

2010-01-21 Thread Chuck Bartosch
In my 3 county area that I was developing an application for, there were 25,000 
households without access to service and in one of those counties I was only 
covering the lower half of the unserved areas of the county. (And one partially 
unserved town in the County I live in was counting on a different provider to 
include them in their application, but that provider chose not to include them 
for one reason or another). It's very easy for me to believe the 24 million 
number since I'm in upstate NY.

What was particularly interesting to me is that in the detailed census block 
studies I did, you would often see half of a census block (geographical half) 
had service and the other did not. 2/3rds of the houses in the census block 
were on the covered side, but it's very difficult to see how the other third 
would ever get service since it doesn't fit cable's density plan but isn't 
enough to justify anyone else building out to them either.

Chuck

On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

 I think so.
 
 24 million just seems to be such a large number when you take into account 
 the well known underreporting of our industry segment (and perhaps others?).
 
 It's hard to imagine that all of our hard work thus far has left so many 
 homes untouched.
 
 At a lowly 40% take rate and $20 per month per account that's $288,000,000 
 in MONTHLY revenue left sitting idle.  It just makes no sense to me.  I 
 can't get my arms around the idea that we've left that many homes with no 
 options.
 
 I can see 24 million households with no service.  I just can't see that many 
 with no access to service.  Heck, I have people that still have dialup 
 internet even though they are within spitting distance of a tower.  Do they 
 count as one of the 24 million?
 
 laters,
 marlon
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:06 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
 
 
 So, the salient points are, as I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong):
 
 (1) Brian's numbers are 24 million currently HAVE NO ACCESS TO SERVICE. 
 His number DOES NOT INCLUDE the number who have access but have chosen not 
 to subscribe.
 
 (2) You haven't seen the underlying data yourself because much of it is 
 private data that you didn't purchase yourself. You get to see the 
 analysis from it because Brian HAS purchased it and combined it with 
 publicly available data.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:46 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 
 Heya Brian,
 
 That's the take I had on this.  That the number of households services 
 was
 based on the 477 data.  I didn't see any other data sets that would give 
 an
 indication of the number of actually services households.
 
 If the study is based only on the consumers reported via the 477 it's 
 likely
 to be quite inaccurate.
 
 People in government etc. are often quite amazed at the number of 
 customers
 that I service out here.  And I'm just one of a great many companies
 offering services in the area.
 
 I'm trying to get a handle on what additional sources of fact based
 information are out there.  It's important to know what the real number 
 is
 and yours seems very high to me.  I don't think it'll be helpful in the 
 long
 term if we have a number that gets blown out of the water in the upcoming
 census.
 
 marlon
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:00 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
 
 
 Marlon,
 Read this take rate brief I wrote with one of the data companies I work
 with. It will take you about 10 minutes. It goes in to specific detail 
 of
 how the study was conducted and the sources of the data. It was written
 for
 the 10 minute managers of the world. The key to being able to come up 
 with
 the numbers was having the data at the census block level in the first
 place. Prior to July of this year there were no sources that I am aware
 of.
 The only information drawn from the form 477 is the total number of
 residential subscribers by state. The number of households without 
 access
 to
 broadband has no relationship to the 477 data. That should be spelled 
 out
 in
 the report.
 
 
 
 Thank You,
 Brian Webster
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:32 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
 
 
 OK, as I understand that the report is based upon the 477 data?
 marlon
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Jack Unger
 To: WISPA General List
 Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:41 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
 
 
 Marlon,
 
 See the attached report. Go to Table 2 on page 11. Look at the last cell
 in the lower, right-hand corner.
 
 jack
 
 
 Marlon K. Schafer wrote

Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ

2010-01-21 Thread Chuck Bartosch
The counties out here are apparently a lot bigger than your counties. One of 
the counties we have service in (but not one of the counties I was looking at 
for this grant) is 18% bigger than the State of Rhode Island.

Chuck

On Jan 21, 2010, at 4:54 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

 You've got an area with 25k households close by and you don't have anything 
 in there?  No one else has anything there either?
 
 That's 2.5 times MORE than my ENTIRE COUNTY has in it!
 
 Man I could be making a lot more money if I lived nearly anywhere else!
 marlon
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:04 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
 
 
 In my 3 county area that I was developing an application for, there were 
 25,000 households without access to service and in one of those counties I 
 was only covering the lower half of the unserved areas of the county. (And 
 one partially unserved town in the County I live in was counting on a 
 different provider to include them in their application, but that provider 
 chose not to include them for one reason or another). It's very easy for 
 me to believe the 24 million number since I'm in upstate NY.
 
 What was particularly interesting to me is that in the detailed census 
 block studies I did, you would often see half of a census block 
 (geographical half) had service and the other did not. 2/3rds of the 
 houses in the census block were on the covered side, but it's very 
 difficult to see how the other third would ever get service since it 
 doesn't fit cable's density plan but isn't enough to justify anyone else 
 building out to them either.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 
 I think so.
 
 24 million just seems to be such a large number when you take into 
 account
 the well known underreporting of our industry segment (and perhaps 
 others?).
 
 It's hard to imagine that all of our hard work thus far has left so many
 homes untouched.
 
 At a lowly 40% take rate and $20 per month per account that's 
 $288,000,000
 in MONTHLY revenue left sitting idle.  It just makes no sense to me.  I
 can't get my arms around the idea that we've left that many homes with no
 options.
 
 I can see 24 million households with no service.  I just can't see that 
 many
 with no access to service.  Heck, I have people that still have dialup
 internet even though they are within spitting distance of a tower.  Do 
 they
 count as one of the 24 million?
 
 laters,
 marlon
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:06 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
 
 
 So, the salient points are, as I understand it (correct me if I'm 
 wrong):
 
 (1) Brian's numbers are 24 million currently HAVE NO ACCESS TO SERVICE.
 His number DOES NOT INCLUDE the number who have access but have chosen 
 not
 to subscribe.
 
 (2) You haven't seen the underlying data yourself because much of it is
 private data that you didn't purchase yourself. You get to see the
 analysis from it because Brian HAS purchased it and combined it with
 publicly available data.
 
 Chuck
 
 On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:46 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 
 Heya Brian,
 
 That's the take I had on this.  That the number of households services
 was
 based on the 477 data.  I didn't see any other data sets that would 
 give
 an
 indication of the number of actually services households.
 
 If the study is based only on the consumers reported via the 477 it's
 likely
 to be quite inaccurate.
 
 People in government etc. are often quite amazed at the number of
 customers
 that I service out here.  And I'm just one of a great many companies
 offering services in the area.
 
 I'm trying to get a handle on what additional sources of fact based
 information are out there.  It's important to know what the real number
 is
 and yours seems very high to me.  I don't think it'll be helpful in the
 long
 term if we have a number that gets blown out of the water in the 
 upcoming
 census.
 
 marlon
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:00 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
 
 
 Marlon,
 Read this take rate brief I wrote with one of the data companies I 
 work
 with. It will take you about 10 minutes. It goes in to specific detail
 of
 how the study was conducted and the sources of the data. It was 
 written
 for
 the 10 minute managers of the world. The key to being able to come up
 with
 the numbers was having the data at the census block level in the first
 place. Prior to July of this year there were no sources that I am 
 aware
 of.
 The only information drawn from the form 477 is the total number of
 residential subscribers by state. The number

Re: [WISPA] This comes up again and again - value of network

2009-12-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
10 months only if the $49.95 is pure profit. Presumably the ROI is really more 
like 40 months assuming you keep the customer for that long. That or I'm having 
a brain melt-down and confusing something.

There was just recently (in the past week or so) a long discussion of 
valuations on the WISPA members list. You might look in the archives for a 
range of ways to look at the question.

Chuck

On Dec 16, 2009, at 2:20 PM, Chuck Profito wrote:

 Well at $49.95 monthly your ROI is 10monthswill he finance out of
 income?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of MDK
 Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:09 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] This comes up again and again - value of network
 
 There's a guy started a small network in an area I serve, but quite distant 
 from me, and he's wanting to get out.
 
 He offered to sell me his customers and his network, and then finally he 
 quoted me a price for his network.Not the customers but just the 
 network and the customer owns his own cpe.I buy the network and inherit
 
 his customers - that was the deal.
 
 It works out to $500 / customer.
 
 For infrastructure, that seems... well... REALLY high to me.
 
 It consists MOSTLY of UBNT stuff and some bandwidth controls, etc, I don't 
 really understand.   It's mostly bridged, and has no public IP's, it was 
 apparently NAT'd to a cable connection somewhere.
 
 Looking at my rural deployments and the approximate cost- even of the 
 solar/wind powered sites...   I'm well under $100/customer for network 
 infrastructure outside of the CPE.
 
 Am I the one way different, or is he?   Or, is this wide range  normal?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

2009-12-15 Thread Chuck Bartosch
.There is, however, no actual
 difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob
 doing it.
 
 
 --
 From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
 To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org; memb...@wispa.org;
 motor...@afmug.com; WISPA Board Members List bo...@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's
 
 I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared 
 to
 electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the 
 early
 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to
 electricity
 (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
 
 The Killer App of 1900 http://publicola.net/?p=20687
 by Glenn Fleishman techn...@publicola.net, 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
 
 It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
 electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and
 cities,
 to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband 
 availability
 today.
 
 http://publicola.net/?p=20687
 
 Thank You,
 Brian Webster
 
 
 
 
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Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

2009-12-14 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Nicely put. The same thought has crossed my mind about the diatribes people 
write on these lists.

Chuck

On Dec 13, 2009, at 8:27 PM, Tim Sylvester wrote:

 Yes, I am amazed. Amazed by the bitching and whining about government on
 this list by people who ...
 
 - sell wireless service using spectrum owned by everyone and allocated to
 them by the FCC for free or low cost.
 - sell access to the Internet, a network originally funded and developed by
 DARPA and later funded by the National Science Foundation.
 - drive on roads funded with taxpayer dollars and maintained by the
 government.
 - sell Internet service in rural areas to farmers that receive billions in
 government subsidies per year.
 - connect CPE equipment to electrical service that was funded by the Rural
 Electric Administration.
 - use VA health services.
 - will use Medicare and Social Security when they retire.
 - call the police and fire department when they need help.
 - send their kids to public schools.
 
 Amazing.
 
 Tim
 
 
 
 
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200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

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Re: [WISPA] health insurance

2009-12-07 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Dec 6, 2009, at 3:24 AM, MDK wrote:

 
 It's my understanding that for purposes of insurance, the rules that govern 
 1099 work are being changed dramatically.The subcontractor status is 
 mostly going to go away. This will mean that if someone runs his own 
 business, but only works for you,  bye bye status... and that includes 
 workman's comp, unemployment, withholdings, etc.

That has always been true, at least in New York State (I don't know when it's a 
state issue or a fed issue, but either way, that is a serious no-no out here). 
I guess Fed. Ex. seems to do it, but I think that's a different set of rules.

 Heaven only knows if this is in whatever abomination

I guess I buy into the fact that there's a problem and a solution is needed. 
Unfortunately, when there are 100 different views about the solution, you do 
end up with something less than ideal.

Personally, I wish it was single payer, period, and I could forget about it. 
With how fast the costs rise out here, and with the changes in the programs 
every year (including what is, and is not, covered), I'd give a lot to get out 
of having to deal with it.

Chuck

 is finally produced, 
 but the intent is definitely to pretty much end this kind of stuff.   One of 
 the ways that was in one of the bills, was to force all individuals who work 
 under that status to buy insurance.
 
 --
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:15 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] health insurance
 
 H..  I feel an increase in the use of the 1099 form would 
 be
 the easy answer.  I lived as a 1099 for many years.
 
 I'm with you on your feelings of get all the way in or get all the way
 out.  I'd prefer they get all the way in and just do it because, 
 honestly,
 it will happen in the end anyhow.  Why put it off and cause more 
 suffering?
 I know, politics doesn't belong here usually and I won't be hit like that
 but it is an issue for some of us.  (And as far as I'm concerned they can
 give gays marriage also and just get it the heck out of the way finally,
 sheeesh!  Why should I be the only one to suffer through marriage???)
 
 But the reality is that many companies are going to go to making who they
 can a 1099 contractor and that's going to open up another can of left in 
 the
 sun worms.
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:50 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] health insurance
 
 Hi,
 
 What are everyone else's plans if this new health insurance plan gets
 passed in Congress? We fall in the 25-100 employee category, so they are
 estimating our health insurance costs would go up $412 per employee for
 us (we already cover 100% of the costs for our employees). So, basically
 this would force us to go to a subcontractor type work-force (at least
 for 5-10 of our current employees) to get us under the 25 employee limit
 and offer less benefits for everyone in the company.
 
 Once again, it seems our government is stepping in where it doesn't
 belong. Either take over the health care system 100% (including funding
 it), or leave it alone.
 
 Travis
 Microserv
 
 
 
 
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Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] health insurance

2009-12-07 Thread Chuck Bartosch
/
 
 
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Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Access Control

2009-11-28 Thread Chuck Bartosch
 and network management   
   |
 echo -e 
 |--|
 
 $SP private 10.0.0.1 .1.3.6.1.4.1.12394.1.1.8.1.0 i 1
 $SP private 10.0.0.1 .1.3.6.1.4.1.12394.1.1.3.1.0 i 3
 $SP private 10.0.0.1 .1.3.6.1.4.1.12394.1.1.3.2.0 i 1
 echo -e UserFilteringOption `$SG private 10.0.0.1 
 .1.3.6.1.4.1.12394.1.1.8.1.0`
 echo -e AccessToNwMng   `$SG private 10.0.0.1 
 .1.3.6.1.4.1.12394.1.1.3.1.0`
 echo -e NwMngFilter `$SG private 10.0.0.1 
 .1.3.6.1.4.1.12394.1.1.3.2.0`
 
 echo -e Network Filtering all setup
 
 echo -e 
 |--|
 echo -e | rebooting radio to new settings - please wait 60 seconds   
   |
 echo -e 
 |--|
 
 $SP private 10.0.0.1 .1.3.6.1.4.1.12394.1.1.2.1.0 i 2
 
 sleep 60s
 
 echo -e 
 |--|
 echo -e | pinging radio with new IP number   
   |
 echo -e 
 |--|
 ping -n -c 4 $IP
 
 echo -e 
 |--|
 echo -e | done. ready for use
   |
 echo -e 
 |--|
 
 
 
 On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 02:22:57PM -0500, Jeremy Parr wrote:
 Before I reinvent the wheel with an Expect script or SNMP query, does
 anyone have scripts written for automating bandwidth/MAC allocations
 for the VL? It does not support RADIUS, so any automated changes need
 to be pushed via telnet or SNMP.
 
 
 
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 /*
 Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL
KB1IOJ|   Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting 
 http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/
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Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] test

2009-11-24 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Dammit Robert. We _all_ agreed, including you, that we weren't going to tell 
him that! sigh

Chuck

;-)

On Nov 24, 2009, at 9:11 PM, Robert West wrote:

 We were ignoring you.  We've been telling secrets.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Blair Davis
 Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 6:47 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] test
 
 
 
 have not seen any msg for a few days...
 
 
 
 
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Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)

2009-11-21 Thread Chuck Bartosch
It seems to me a long time ago (back in the dial up days), we restricted people 
from 8 AM to midnight but let them go full out and abuse the heck out of their 
connection if they so desired from midnight to 8 AM. We didn't *bill* 
differently.

Or maybe we just wanted to. I know we *told* customers that's what we did ;-).

Chuck

On Nov 15, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Tim Sylvester wrote:

 Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use
 billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has
 multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at
 $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the
 baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087
 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh
 during peak times. 
 
 Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for
 Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to
 explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of
 bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the
 network during off hours.
 
 Tim
 
 
 
 
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Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)

2009-11-21 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Nov 15, 2009, at 11:47 PM, jree...@18-30chat.net wrote:

 Oh my that is insane kw/h pricing. Happen to know what there buy back rates 
 are?
 Here I pay .07 kw/h with a buy back of .02 kw/h.

New York State requires buyback at the same rate as the sell rate. So it'd be 
.07 kw/h both ways. The utilities hate it of course, but NYS's philosophy is, 
you've built the grid with guaranteed returns and we need to diversify the 
supply, so tough. I know they (the utilities) tried to get this changed a few 
years ago but I don't think they were successful (I haven't been following it 
lately so maybe it changed and I missed it).

Chuck

 
 I have thought of doing time rates, but for now I turn down p2p, etc, during
 peek times and kick it up at off peek. This worked well till the major push 
 over
 to encrypted connections
 
 Tim Sylvester wrote:
 Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use
 billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has
 multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at
 $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the
 baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087
 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh
 during peak times. 
 
 Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for
 Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to
 explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of
 bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the
 network during off hours.
 
 Tim
 
 
 
 
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200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] example of needing middle mile

2009-11-13 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Ironically, years ago, they offered to buy us for $5.5 million or  
something like that. Had a *great* meal at the Gothem Bar and Grill in  
Manhatten, including a $250 bottle of Petite Syrah as they wooed  
us... ;-).

Guess I'm glad we demurred. Though having a few mil in cash might have  
been nice too...

Chuck

On Nov 13, 2009, at 12:14 PM, jp wrote:

 http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=295654ac=PHnws

 Bankrupt Fairpoint backbilling and threatening an ISP/CLEC because
 Fairpoint doesn't want to continue an interconnection agreement.

 It's a bit sensationalized (according to my conversation with the  
 ISP in
 the story), but shows how the big telcos care more about protecting
 their monopoly than promoting business, broadband, or innovation.

 This is why Maine needs a middle mile ARRA network such as has been
 applied for. Some states probably do not, but we do in Maine.  
 Fairpoint
 is hopeless in every respect.

 -- 
 /*
 Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL
KB1IOJ|   Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting
 http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/
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Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

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Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-12 Thread Chuck Bartosch
/




 
 
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Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-12 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Actually, that is not what Rick was suggesting as I understood it. At  
one level he's saying he should be able to charge the company who is  
NOT in his service territory for responding to a customer enquiry  
(looking at a web page, downloading a movie).

Your cell company charges *you* for your minutes, not the person  
you're calling. The person you're calling might, or might not, be  
charged for your call, but your cell company cannot charge them unless  
it's the same cell company.

Rick's other argument (in parenthesis) was that we should charge the  
local ISP that hosts the business (say Netflix). Though that might be  
possible I'd sure hate to start getting bills from Verizon because one  
of my customers hosts a web site that is popular with Verizon  
customers. I don't see anything good coming out of that ;-).

Chuck

On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:25 PM, Gary Garrett wrote:

 You sound like the cell phone company.
 I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the
 month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.


--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-12 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Nov 7, 2009, at 9:35 PM, RickG wrote:

 For $100 a month per phone and the internet access is relatively  
 slow. Not
 really an apples to apples comparison.

 In my home, I want unlimited electicity, natural gas, and water too!

Ah, but information wants to be free!

See, we can all trade quips grin!

Chuck



 On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote:

 The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited  
 plan
 on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access  
 for
 $9.95/mo extra.

 People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to  
 be from
 month to month. Would you want that at your own home?

 Travis
 Microserv

 Gary Garrett wrote:

 You sound like the cell phone company.
 I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by  
 the
 month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.


 Travis Johnson wrote:


 Hi,

 You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius,  
 etc.)
 to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the
 phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on
 during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere.  So,  
 even
 that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think
 about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you
 have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.

 The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to
 upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as  
 well).
 This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra
 income each month, even if they don't use it.


 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-12 Thread Chuck Bartosch
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-12 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Nov 12, 2009, at 2:02 PM, RickG wrote:

 Chuck,

 That's the point. The consumer is NOT paying for excessive bandwidth  
 use.
 When bandwidth runs us over $100/meg and one customer uses $300's  
 worth for
 $50/month there is something wrong.

Right, but if that's the case you either charge them or lose the  
customer (on purpose I mean). You don't try to charge the organization  
they are downloading from.

 The unlimited bandwidth model only works
 when you can oversubscribe the bandwidth. With bandwidth usage  
 climbing
 exponentially, the model will soon break. Furthermore, some educated
 consumers are finally realizing that they are subsidizing the  
 bandwidth
 hogs. They ask how is that fair?
 As far as my Netflix idea, I agree my original idea is probably not  
 a good
 solution.

Yep, that's what I was trying to say. I know you're just batting ideas  
around, which is always healthy.

Chuck

 I was also a GM at a cable company and maybe we should use them as
 a template? HBO, and the other premium channels charge the cable cos  
 for the
 customer's usage which we passed on to the customer for a profit.  
 Both HBO
 and the cable co makes money and everyone wins.
 Really, I'm just kicking around ideas because something has to  
 happen. I'm
 not saying I have the right ideas.
 As far as the phone companies, AFAIK the LECS still have an exchange  
 rates
 for calls that terminate on another network. It's just transparent  
 to the
 end users. At any rate, this discussion is much needed.

 Thanks to all on this list for their ingenuity which makes this the  
 best
 business field to be in (IMHO)!
 -RickG

 On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Chuck Bartosch
 ch...@clarityconnect.comwrote:


 On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:25 PM, RickG wrote:

 In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business
 models were
 dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL
 had the
 right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of
 their
 weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the
 $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due
 to less
 apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of  
 usage.
 Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are  
 agreements
 between each other for payment of access to our networks. For
 instance, the
 phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I
 realize
 this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us
 for
 utilziation of our networks?

 I do not see why they (Netflix) should, no. The consumer is already
 paying you for it. Netflix is not another ISP. It's a phone call.  
 My
 phone company does not charge my local hardware store for calling  
 them
 if they are with a different phone company any more than it charges  
 my
 mom when I call her back in Minnesota (I live in New York). My  
 *mom's*
 phone company might charge her for the the call, depending on the
 plan, but that's about as far as it goes.

 The provider idea could bite us hard.

 Note that originally the settlement fees were demanded by the
 established phone companies to mild the upstart cell companies for
 revenues. They weren't smart when they started those agreements and  
 it
 came back to bite them later when CLECs exploited the ideas in novel
 ways with the advent of the Internet where you could guarantee  
 certain
 incoming-only calls. But they aren't going to be so stupid as to not
 think of those loop holes a second time ;-).

 Chuck

 -RickG

 On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers
 ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote:

 I do agree with you and that works if there are other options.  One
 customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into  
 this
 neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only
 option.  It
 is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and  
 others.
 They come in all gaming consoles now.  Why not have the customers  
 pay
 for upgrades?  If there is a high demand for services, the demand
 drives
 growth; or fees stifle demand.

 Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is  
 straining
 the network, shouldn't they pay more?

 Eric

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that  
 10%
 customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding
 complexity
 to your network.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Chuck Profito wrote:
 Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog!

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Eric Rogers
 Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing

 We are on the verge

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-12 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Nov 12, 2009, at 2:14 PM, RickG wrote:

 LOL, All in good fun! To be clear, I really dont want free  
 electricity, gas,
 or water because you get what you pay for every time.
 On the serious side, i disagree with your statement.

Really, it's just a quote, not a statement by me per se. I don't agree  
with it entirely either-though the meaning is that the replication  
cost for information has gone to nearly zero with modern technology.

Chuck

 Some information wants
 or needs to be free. Especially public domain info such is how to  
 get your
 drivers license, or info on the nearest state park, etc. But on the  
 other
 hand, proprietary information should not be free. Such as Coca-Colas  
 recipe
 or make Pyrex dishes. Contrary to the recent generations thought  
 process
 that everything should be free - that model doesnt not work in a  
 capitalist
 environment. We are still capitalist arent we?
 -RickG

 On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Chuck Bartosch
 ch...@clarityconnect.comwrote:


 On Nov 7, 2009, at 9:35 PM, RickG wrote:

 For $100 a month per phone and the internet access is relatively
 slow. Not
 really an apples to apples comparison.

 In my home, I want unlimited electicity, natural gas, and water too!

 Ah, but information wants to be free!

 See, we can all trade quips grin!

 Chuck



 On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote:

 The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited
 plan
 on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access
 for
 $9.95/mo extra.

 People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to
 be from
 month to month. Would you want that at your own home?

 Travis
 Microserv

 Gary Garrett wrote:

 You sound like the cell phone company.
 I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by
 the
 month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.


 Travis Johnson wrote:


 Hi,

 You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius,
 etc.)
 to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with  
 the
 phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on
 during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere.  So,
 even
 that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to  
 think
 about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers  
 you
 have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.

 The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to
 upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as
 well).
 This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed  
 extra
 income each month, even if they don't use it.



 
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 --
 Chuck Bartosch
 Clarity Connect, Inc.
 200 Pleasant Grove Road
 Ithaca, NY 14850
 (607) 257-8268

 When the stars threw down their spears,
 and water'd heaven with their tears,
 Did He smile, His work to see?
 Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






 
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Re: [WISPA] customers dogs chewing on CAT5

2009-11-09 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Feed and Grain stores sell bitters, but I find that any determined dog  
will ignore the bitters and chew away.

In fact, just this morning I coincidentally happened to have some  
bitters (gf bought it a while back) and thought oh what the hell and  
sprayed it on something a dog was chewing on. The dog went right back  
to it, licked it, shook his head, licked his chops, and licked the  
wood again. Kept doing this, whining at times, until it was all  
clean and he could chew again ;-).

However, I *have* found that Habanero Tabasco Hot Sauce works 100% of  
the time. That's like 10,000 times hotter than normal jalapeno hot  
sauce and they do not like and do not go back for a second lick.

Chuck

On Nov 9, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Greg wrote:

 Your local feed and grain or pet store should have aerosol dog  
 repellent.

 Greg

 On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com  
 wrote:

 I've had several customers that have had their dog chew on the Cat5  
 going
 from the house to the TV tower and some of them multiple times.



 Anyone have ideas on how to keep the dog from chewing on the wire?  
 I've got
 one customer on their 3rd Cat5 run and going out right now to  
 replace a
 different customer that will be his 3rd one as well.



 I'm about ready to shoot the stinking dog..



 Kurt Fankhauser
 WAVELINC
 P.O. Box 126
 Bucyrus, OH 44820
 419-562-6405
 www.wavelinc.com










 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Ideas on Police Department Wireless Link from Station to Cruiser

2009-10-17 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Josh,

It kind of depends where you live, just like it does for any 3G  
service. Where I personally live, ATT's 3G service is excellent. I  
switched from Verizon and have better coverage and better performance.  
I'm sure the reverse is true in other areas...but you really cannot  
legitimately make blanket statements like that when they need coverage  
in a specific relatively small area.

Chuck

On Oct 17, 2009, at 1:45 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

 I strongly advise avoiding ATT's 3G service.  I haven't been  
 impressed at
 all.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Jayson Baker  
 jay...@spectrasurf.comwrote:

 We currently do this for a local PD.  They have 13 of those  
 ruggedized Dell
 laptops, mounted in all the cars.
 We looked at 2.4GHz and 900MHz.  Even though the town is only  
 5sqmi, we
 decided to go with Verizon Aircards.

 Worked out well, because the laptops are tied directly into their CAD
 system, which is tied into the whole state.
 So now they could, theoretically, go anywhere in the state and be
 dispatched
 on a call, run plates/people through NCIC, etc.

 I believe that because of that, they actually got the state to pay  
 for a
 lot
 of it.

 Sure, we don't make anything on the Verizon service, but we do on the
 backend by tying their CAD into the Internet.

 Just something to keep in mind, if you have any sort of 3G service  
 in that
 area.

 Jayson

 On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 wrote:

 I got a call Friday afternoon from the police chief of a small  
 little
 spot
 in the road asking about the possibility of connecting his  
 cruisers to
 the
 station network via a wireless link.  (He is the Police Chief  
 but I
 suspect he is also the entire police force)  He said that the local
 Wal-Mart
 has agreed to donate to him a few of those little Acer 7 screen  
 laptops,
 which are a big piece of crap from the number of repairs we've had  
 to do
 on
 them...  Anyhow, he wants to be able to be in the cruiser and  
 connect to
 the
 network back at the station and use the websites from the Attorney
 General's
 office where he can run plates, drivers license info and also fill  
 out
 his
 reports.



 Here's the setup..



 This Burg is a bit less than 2 miles long and about one and a half  
 miles
 wide.  The town hall is equivalent to a 4 story building and they  
 also
 have
 a water tower that looks to be 100 foot tall.  The terrain is flat  
 as can
 be
 and they have the normal scattering of trees.  The Town Hall and  
 water
 tower
 are the tallest structures by far aside from a large grain  
 elevator right
 outside of town.  Boy wants to connect to his network anywhere in  
 town
 from
 his cop-mobile as well as when he is at home, also within the town.



 We've done plenty of private networks but it's all been in the 2.4  
 and
 5ghz
 band.  He was thinking he could just throw up a 2.4ghz link and be  
 good
 but
 I told him to hold on, I didn't think he could broadcast the  
 Attorney
 Generals network to every antenna in town, I had to do some  
 research.  So
 this, because of my utterly blatant laziness, is my research. J



 Has anyone been down this path?  What can we do and not do?



 I have a meeting with the guy next Wednesday and want to have some  
 idea
 of
 what we're up against on this one.  (Hopefully he doesn't  
 recognize me as
 the guy who took him to court over a ticket he wrote for a crooked
 license
 plate...  I won that one by the way)



 Thanks for any help!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020


--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right

2009-10-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Dude, you're talking about France. What do you expect?

;-)

Chuck

On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Jayson Baker wrote:

 My thoughts exactly.  A human right.  Duh?

 On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Josh Luthman
 j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote:

 Seriously my brain hurts that is so dumb.

 A human right?

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com  
 wrote:

 Thanks for your post Dave. I didn't know this was going on.

 David Hulsebus wrote:
 FYI

 From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access  
 Deemed
 a Legal Right

 --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right
 (October 14  15, 2009)
 The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband  
 Internet
 access a legal right.  The law will take effect in July 2010.  The
 country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb
 broadband connections.  Finland's Transport and Communications  
 Ministry
 spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think  
 [the
 Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern  
 society.  Like
 banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet
 connection.  Earlier this year, France declared Internet access  
 to be
 a human right.
 http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html


 http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-makes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx



 Dave Hulsebus
 Portative Technologies, LLC
 www.portative.com




 --
 Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
 Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs
 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
 www.ask-wi.com  818-227-4220  jun...@ask-wi.com

 Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString...








 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right

2009-10-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Robert West wrote:

 I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies
 converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet  
 we will
 have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at  
 this
 moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us  
 will be
 able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet.

 I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right.

Keep in mind, it's a *legal* right (soon) in Finland, not a human  
right. People are conflating the French decree with Finland's.

Chuck

  Most information,
 other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed.  How would slower
 internet speeds be the difference between life or death?

 My 15 year old.

 Dad!  If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just  
 gonna
 die!

 Okay, that much I DO understand.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of David Hulsebus
 Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right

 FYI

 From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed
 a Legal Right

 --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right
 (October 14  15, 2009)
 The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet
 access a legal right.  The law will take effect in July 2010.  The
 country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb
 broadband connections.  Finland's Transport and Communications  
 Ministry
 spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the
 Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society.   
 Like
 banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet
 connection.  Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be
 a human right.
 http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html
 http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m
 akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx



 Dave Hulsebus
 Portative Technologies, LLC
 www.portative.com



 
 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth

2009-10-11 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Oct 11, 2009, at 1:33 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


 - Original Message -
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 9:43 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth



 On Oct 9, 2009, at 9:18 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

 I didn't apply for two main reasons.

 1: they want the whole company and don't tell you when (if ever)
 you'll get
 it back.

 You can't sell the company without approval for 10 years. The general
 terms of that approval were that you couldn't be asking for so little
 for the company that it resulted in a windfall for the buyer and the
 buyer had to maintain the terms of the contract you sign with the
 government to get the money.

 I keep hearing that, but I don't remember seeing it anywhere in the  
 NOFA.
 It's not in the ARRA, and I asked that specific question in  
 Billings.  I got
 a shrug of the shoulders.

IIRC, it's in the FAQ.

Originally the statements (and I think this is what the NOFA said)  
were for the life of the equipment being purchased. However, that  
was later clarified to be 10 years. I'm not sure 10 years is better  
than life but shrug.

 It isn't unreasonable. The final terms of this requirement are worked
 out in the contract you negotiate once you're awarded the funds  
 (you
 don't actually get anything just because you won the award...you have
 to sign a mutual contract first).

 As I understand it, it's far more than that.  You can't sell any  
 assets
 without government approval either.  Want to trade in that old  
 install van?
 Make sure you clear it with the boss first.  What about old gear  
 that you
 upgrade from?  Just think about how hard it would be to get anything  
 done if
 you had to ask permission for nearly all of it, from a desk jocky,  
 in DC.

You can sell any asset that didn't come from the grant. If you had  
that van before, or bought the van not-on-the-grant, then you do with  
it as you please.

If they paid for the equipment, it's only fair and right that they  
make sure you're not just buying it, and then selling it to make a  
profit that has nothing to do with providing the service they are  
paying you to provide. They have some ownership rights on the  
equipment you're trying to sell since they paid for at least half, and  
up to 80%, of its cost.

As a taxpayer, I just don't see this as an unreasonable attempt to  
prevent fraud or unjust enrichment at my expense. I'd be upset if  
something like this *weren't* in the requirements.

 2: My areas are already covered better than what's allowed under the
 grants.
 We've done a good job in the past and our reward is government  
 funded
 potential competition, gotta love that one.

 Yeah, having government funded competition sucks. So does having
 competition that is cross-subsidized by phone service revenues. Or
 television revenues. Or investors that don't know what they are  
 doing.

 In the end there isn't anything really special about the funding
 coming from the Feds versus many other sources we have to compete
 around. It hurts the same either way.

 Oh yeah,
 3: If you take Obama money you are required to wholesale access to  
 the
 network at fair and reasonable rates.

 You're said this before and you've been told before this is not the
 case.

 Yest it is.  It's in the NOFA.  You have to open your network at  
 fair and
 reasonable rates.  I asked about this in Billings too.  Again, I  
 was told
 to submit the question in writing as there is no definition of fair  
 and
 reasonable already established.

You're conflating two separate statements in the NOFA and you  
apparently either didn't ask a clear question or you didn't ask  
someone who understood the question (neither are your fault of  
course...if it wasn't clear to you it's hard to ask a clear question,  
and you can't help the understanding of the designated responder to  
your question) or the answer hadn't been determined yet.

In any case, there are TWO separate issues. The first is  
interconnection. The second is wholesale. You DO NOT HAVE TO OPEN YOUR  
NETWORK TO WHOLESALE ACCESS. In fact, in the application it is two  
separate questions. The first you have to answer yes to or you cannot  
apply. The second clearly states it's optional, but worth extra credit  
under BTOP if you agree to do it.

 You are required to support Interconnection at reasonable rates on  
 the
 part of the network you built with government funds. For a small
 provider that's an almost completely meaningless requirement.

 Really?  Lets say I do a county wide network.  I double my coverage  
 zone, or
 more, with grant funds.  I now have to allow interconnection,  
 wholesale,

You do not have to offer wholesale to anyone whatsoever if that's your  
preference. And the two (interconnection and wholesale) are NOT  
equivalent.

The only reason I'm saying that *again* is because the statement about  
wholesale could

Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth

2009-10-10 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Oct 9, 2009, at 9:18 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

 I didn't apply for two main reasons.

 1: they want the whole company and don't tell you when (if ever)  
 you'll get
 it back.

You can't sell the company without approval for 10 years. The general  
terms of that approval were that you couldn't be asking for so little  
for the company that it resulted in a windfall for the buyer and the  
buyer had to maintain the terms of the contract you sign with the  
government to get the money.

It isn't unreasonable. The final terms of this requirement are worked  
out in the contract you negotiate once you're awarded the funds (you  
don't actually get anything just because you won the award...you have  
to sign a mutual contract first).

 2: My areas are already covered better than what's allowed under the  
 grants.
 We've done a good job in the past and our reward is government funded
 potential competition, gotta love that one.

Yeah, having government funded competition sucks. So does having  
competition that is cross-subsidized by phone service revenues. Or  
television revenues. Or investors that don't know what they are doing.

In the end there isn't anything really special about the funding  
coming from the Feds versus many other sources we have to compete  
around. It hurts the same either way.

 Oh yeah,
 3: If you take Obama money you are required to wholesale access to the
 network at fair and reasonable rates.

You're said this before and you've been told before this is not the  
case.

You are required to support Interconnection at reasonable rates on the  
part of the network you built with government funds. For a small  
provider that's an almost completely meaningless requirement.

For large multi-region buildouts, that's got some meaning.

You were NOT, however, required to support wholesale. That's a bonus.

  Anyone know what that really means?
 Me neither.  I figure if someone comes here I'll just make them sell  
 to me
 at good rates and I'll not have to deal with the grant hassles.

You can interconnect with their network. If they are small it  
presumably means you set up a direction connection with them so that  
your traffic goes directly to them and vice versa without needing to  
transit to the outside world.

Interconnection wasn't defined really well in the NOFA however. It  
could also mean another provider could ask to use your network to  
reach the outside world. However, you get to negotiate for that access  
on reasonable terms, which means you could make a profit on whatever  
it is you provide them. Unless you agreed to arbitration (an option in  
the application), you couldn't be forced to do it really (since it'd  
be easy enough to set unworkable terms). A starting point for the  
negotiation would probably have been what would access cost from the  
big guys to your location? since that's presumably a reasonable place  
to be price wise.

Chuck


 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: Tim Sylvester t...@avanzarnetworks.com
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 9:42 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth


 Stimulus: I don't believe in it and did not apply.

 I want to understand people's opposition to the Broadband Stimulus
 programs.


 Rick and other people opposed to the stimulus, can you expand on  
 why you
 don't believe in the Stimulus and why you didn't apply? Are there  
 things
 you
 think the government - FCC, congress, etc. - could do to help ISPs  
 and
 expanding broadband?

 Tim





 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] American Dollar. Was: Re: Barriers to WISP growth

2009-10-09 Thread Chuck Bartosch
...@gmail.commailto:rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:



 Patrick,



 #1- Labor: There is very little skilled resources here.

 #2- Funding: Especially for labor. Normal financing channels are

 available but I will not take on too much debt at one time.

 #3- Time: There is little extra time to dedicate towards expansion

 versus daily operations.



 Notes-

 Employees: Too small to enjoy such a luxury.

 Stimulus: I don't believe in it and did not apply.

 Technologies: Proprietary equipment are a bit too expensive unless  
 you

 buy CPE in 100 packs. Even then, the AP's are still expensive.



 -RickG



 On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Patrick Leary
 ple...@apertonet.commailto:ple...@apertonet.com

 wrote:



 Regardless of your tech choice -- Moto, 802.11-based, WiMAX or other,
 I

 am interested to know what are the greatest barriers to growth and  
 why?



 Some possibilities:

 Is it funding and if so, are your normal channels for money frozen or

 otherwise gone?

 Is it competition? If so, how specifically.

 Are you constrained from hiring due to high cost of employee benefits

 (e.g. health insurance)?

 Are you stalled waiting for response from your stimulus application?

 Are you stalled trying to defend against someone else's stimulus

 application that would include your market?

 Are the current technologies too expensive or technicall inadequate  
 to

 deliver what you need to compete?



 Patrick Leary

 Aperto Networks

 813.426.4230 mobile





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 POB 875

 Greenville, TX 75403-0875

 903-455-5036





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Re: [WISPA] American Dollar. Was: Re: Barriers to WISP growth

2009-10-09 Thread Chuck Bartosch
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Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] American Dollar. Was: Re: Barriers to WISP growth

2009-10-09 Thread Chuck Bartosch
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Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] American Dollar. Was: Re: Barriers to WISP growth

2009-10-09 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Yep, very true.

How come we never use the Chat list for these discussions? ;-)

Chuck

On Oct 9, 2009, at 12:29 PM, Randy Cosby wrote:

 What gets scary is when countries like China and Saudi Arabia start
 talking about not pegging to the dollar, or even selling commodities
 based on the dollar.  Then it's a whole new ball game and who knows  
 who
 will set the standard.  We have an artificial advantage with the
 dollar, and if that goes away, we don't have as much fudge room.

 Randy

 Chuck Bartosch wrote:
 On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Robert West wrote:


 It will never, stay worth what it is today.  As long as there are
 people out
 there looking to make a little extra cash, it will always creep up.
 It's
 the nature of free enterprise.


 There have been times when the dollar's value has gone up, not down.
 By policy on a national level we don't ever want to see the 1930's
 again though.

 The dollar's value creeps down from inflation because in general we
 want inflation...just not very much of it. If the dollar's value is
 rising, then spending money today instead of tomorrow means you lose
 value. That has the effect of dampening economic growth in those rare
 times when people are acting rationally (though perhaps rare, it does
 act like a general force). With some mild inflation, you're better  
 off
 to some extent spending money now, compared to putting it in a
 mattress at least.

 Anyway, deflation is often described as a bigger threat to us, if it
 were to occur again, than inflation. The struggle with inflation  
 isn't
 to eliminate it but to keep it predictable and relatively low-but not
 zero.

 Chuck



 Let's just admit we're old.  :)




 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:39 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] American Dollar. Was: Re: Barriers to WISP  
 growth

 5% increase of costs don't stop at just bread.  It costs 5% more to
 ship.
 Your WISP gear.  Gas and truck.  Payroll.

 If it costs more to get into the US it costs more to get to you.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains,  
 however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net  
 wrote:


 I understand that so instead of bread costing $2.00 per loaf,  
 it
 goes up to $2.10.

 So because of that fear, everyone wants to find a different place
 to
 put money besides a bank? Seems strange to me.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Jeff Ehman wrote:

 Imports cost us way more money.  That may not directly affect any

 individual consumer, but it does impact nearly every manufacturer.
 Cost

 of

 production increases greatly.  The only way they can make money  
 is to
 increase their prices to distributors who in turn have to raise the
 price

 to

 individual consumers.  It creates inflation.

 -Jeff Ehman

 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On

 Behalf Of Travis Johnson

 Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 8:26 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] American Dollar. Was: Re: Barriers to WISP
 growth

 I've never understood this thinking... who cares if the dollar is
 worth

 less to the rest of the world? If it will still buy groceries, or
 pay my
 power bill, why does it matter?

 Travis
 Microserv

 RickG wrote:

 put some money in the bank

 The question is: which currency?

 With the dollar falling (or failing) what good is it going to do
 in the

 bank?

 I guess I'll just keep pouring it back into the company because  
 its

 gonna be worthless soon.

 Any other ideas guys?

 -RickG



 On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 mailto:o...@odessaoffice.com wrote:



 Yeah, what he said!



 I'm gonna work REALLY hard to pay down debt and put some money in
 the

 bank

 over the next 3 or 4 years.  I want to be ready to pick those
 companies

 up.

 marlon



 - Original Message -

 From: Marco Coelho coelh...@gmail.commailto:coelh...@gmail.com 
 

 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org

 Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:20 AM

 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth







 Patrick,



 Not being one for gov money



 We have excellent credit.  We have that because we only expand  
 at a

 rate the will allow funding (new business) to cover our costs.  So
 the

 cycle goes:



 1.  Build out X number of Towers.

 2.  Market X number of Areas.

 3.  Install Customers to X*Y until well funded.



 Repeat.



 I think a lot of the companies that take stimulus money are  
 going to

 go under in the long run.  They will go like the dot-coms.  Build

 build Build Ah shit no revenue!



 That being said, we are vertical, all workers work for the  
 company

Re: [WISPA] American Dollar. Was: Re: Barriers to WISP growth

2009-10-09 Thread Chuck Bartosch
That brings up an interesting factor.

China is completely stuck with us as long as the dollar is cheap. They  
bought them when the dollar was dear (over time of course, and with a  
sliding range of values) but if they even started to unload now, not  
only would they take a huge hit compared to what they comparatively  
paid, they would also drive down the dollar's value even further  
making it even more difficult for them to unload.

In other words, at a whim they could screw us royally...but they'd  
have to screw themselves to do it. Definitely an interesting problem.  
And they don't have a short term fix to this issue. As much as they  
talk about an alternative currency, they can't afford to have that  
happen when the dollar is down. And they are more-or-less forced to  
keep loaning to the US government for the same basic reason, until  
they decide to bite the bullet anyway.

So, the sky isn't falling.

Yet.

Chuck


On Oct 9, 2009, at 3:29 PM, Daniel Mullen wrote:

 I just cannot keep quiet on this any more.

 Gold, in US Dollars, was $1045 and change this morning. That sounds
 high, but it was higher, in constant currency terms when you look at a
 basket of currencies.

 Yes, oil still is priced in nice U.S. Dollars, and everyone is glad to
 have them.

 So far, so good.

 The folks in the Middle East buy German cars, use European adult
 personal entertainment, and go shopping - either in the sparkling new
 massive shopping mall in town, or again, somewhere in Europe - and the
 dollars get converted eventually into Euros.

 I used to get 80¢ to the Euro. Now it is $1.46.

 You can do the math on that.

 As long as China continues to be the 'sister nation' to the United
 States of America, keeping its currency fairly closely pegged to the
 U.S. Dollar, then everything will be fine. All the Asian countries
 will do their best to work on U.S. Dollar terms so as to stay
 competitive vis-a-vis China.

 But China is now sitting on TWO TRILLION - that is 2,000,000,000,000 -
 U.S. Dollars, and wondering what to do. If they wanted to take over
 the world today, instead of merely the entire Asia-Pacific region and
 Africa, they could simply cut the line and then let the U.S.A. dangle
 in the wind.

 As it is, China is going around the world buying everything you can
 imagine: years worth of factory equipment from Germany, minerals in
 Africa, oil and gas everywhere, iron ore from Brazil, uranium from
 Australia, and on and on.

 You should see the pictures: gigantic barges being loaded with
 enormous open spools of copper, a good ten feet in diameter, to be
 stockpiled in China, and more ore than you could possibly fathom.

 And now they are buying gold: gold and more gold, and the government
 is telling its citizens to also buy gold.

 Simply put, they are turning the greenbacks into hard assets.

 None of this will bother you, because all your gear is made from parts
 which are priced in U.S. Dollars, and China is keeping a good lid on
 things - until they stop.

 When the Sheiks - or Mr. Chavez - decides they want some pretty thing
 from Europe, and see how small their wallets are, the price of oil -
 yes, in U.S. Dollars - will go to the moon.

 The fact that oil is priced in dollars really means nothing. It is the
 value that the producer gets for the specific volume sold that
 matters, and as long as the rest of the world is getting more
 expensive by comparison, the more dollars the sellers will want to
 ensure they can keep on buying those things, regardless of what the
 dollar buys for you in your own backyard.

 By the way, milk is cheap everywhere now - in Belgium the farmers
 started to spray it on their fields rather than sell it, just to make
 demonstrate how low it has gone.


 
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--
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Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth

2009-10-08 Thread Chuck Bartosch
No please, let's not go there Josh. Obviously lots of people in the  
world, not just in the US are going to disagree vehemently with you.  
That's a completely useless conversation for a public list. Private  
conversation over a beer? Sure ;-). In a worst case, what you see as a  
banana gone bad someone else will see as a banana at perfect ripeness.

One thing maybe the FCC or other branch of government could do is  
issue regulations that would help expedite tower zoning approvals.  
Right now a large part of the review process just drives up the cost  
for no discernible benefit.

As an example, in upstate NY a firm a few years ago shopped a boiler  
plate zoning requirement to many of the little towns up this way. As a  
result, if you want to merely change the type of antenna on a tower,  
or just add to it, you (legally, though I know a lot of firms don't  
actually do it) have to go through a full zoning hearing, which  
requires a $5K to $7.5K fee and includes paying a town's consultant  
to review the application. Crazy waste of time and money. (Yes, you  
can blame the problem on the town government, but people do have a  
right to set up their own rules by-and-large, and that's what these  
towns have done, even though they don't understand what they've done  
exactly. It's a place where the Fed. government might be able to step  
in though and set some intelligent ground rules).

Chuck

On Oct 8, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

 Are there things you think the government - FCC, congress, etc. -  
 could do
 to help ISPs and expanding broadband?

 Seriously?  Name one thing the government has done right in the last  
 200
 years.  The list should start and end with the military and that can  
 be
 argued either way.  The only thing the government could do to help  
 is to not
 do anything at all.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Tim Sylvester t...@avanzarnetworks.com 
 wrote:

 Stimulus: I don't believe in it and did not apply.

 I want to understand people's opposition to the Broadband Stimulus
 programs.


 Rick and other people opposed to the stimulus, can you expand on  
 why you
 don't believe in the Stimulus and why you didn't apply? Are there  
 things
 you
 think the government - FCC, congress, etc. - could do to help ISPs  
 and
 expanding broadband?

 Tim






 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth

2009-10-08 Thread Chuck Bartosch
The problem I've seen in general is that a lot of areas are cherry- 
picked. Anything with any reasonable density (say, the Village centers  
in a Town) already have access. You can't really make a business case  
based on what people can afford to roll out service in many areas out  
here because of the geography.

Yet, there's public good, not just individual good, done by providing  
access to these folks.

So, yes, I think the stimulus funding can be a good thing. The problem  
is, I fear it's going to be co-opted for applications that really  
didn't need the funding in the first place.

Chuck

On Oct 8, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Robert West wrote:

 One of my issues is that it isn't necessary.  We make money at this
 business, or at least try to.  If an area is underserved or not  
 served,
 that's usually because of middle mile issues or terrain.  It's all  
 line of
 sight and no one, not even the people trying to start up a wisp with  
 this
 free money, are going to put up towers every mile or so just to  
 pump a
 signal into a valley with 2 or 3 homes if even that.  So they will  
 obviously
 be going for the easy areas and those are ones that we can service  
 just
 fine already and probably do.  The motivation is profit, it  
 shouldn't be
 free money.  As someone mentioned before, the majority of these new  
 startups
 will be here and gone and they will no doubt give a black eye to the
 wireless business from their lack of experience and sense of  
 responsibility
 to both their customer and the reputation of the industry they  
 represent.

 The only true Broadband Stimulus would be to open up enough usable  
 white
 space spectrum and the market will take care of it from there.

 Guaranteed.


 Robert West
 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.




 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Tim Sylvester
 Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 12:43 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth

 Stimulus: I don't believe in it and did not apply.

 I want to understand people's opposition to the Broadband Stimulus  
 programs.


 Rick and other people opposed to the stimulus, can you expand on why  
 you
 don't believe in the Stimulus and why you didn't apply? Are there  
 things you
 think the government - FCC, congress, etc. - could do to help ISPs and
 expanding broadband?

 Tim





 
 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth

2009-10-08 Thread Chuck Bartosch
In general, in the rural areas I work in, spectrum availability isn't  
ever the issue. In cities and sometimes village centers, yes, but not  
in the areas that should be addressed with broadband funding.

Chuck

On Oct 8, 2009, at 1:32 PM, Robert West wrote:

 Yes.  However my point in it all is that if the government wants to  
 help
 then cash really isn't the answer.  You can throw money at anything  
 and
 still have no useable result.  Cash versus spectrum.  I need tools,  
 not
 money.  With the correct spectrum we wouldn't have to worry about  
 cherry
 picking.  I know, I know, everyone gripes about spectrum  
 availability but
 it's because it's true.  That would change the entire makeup of  
 wireless
 internet.  That would be in the public good and, after all, the  
 public DOES
 own the airwaves but our representatives use it as a profit center  
 instead
 of the original intent of serving the public good.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch
 Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 1:16 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth

 The problem I've seen in general is that a lot of areas are cherry-
 picked. Anything with any reasonable density (say, the Village centers
 in a Town) already have access. You can't really make a business case
 based on what people can afford to roll out service in many areas out
 here because of the geography.

 Yet, there's public good, not just individual good, done by providing
 access to these folks.

 So, yes, I think the stimulus funding can be a good thing. The problem
 is, I fear it's going to be co-opted for applications that really
 didn't need the funding in the first place.

 Chuck

 On Oct 8, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Robert West wrote:

 One of my issues is that it isn't necessary.  We make money at this
 business, or at least try to.  If an area is underserved or not
 served,
 that's usually because of middle mile issues or terrain.  It's all
 line of
 sight and no one, not even the people trying to start up a wisp with
 this
 free money, are going to put up towers every mile or so just to
 pump a
 signal into a valley with 2 or 3 homes if even that.  So they will
 obviously
 be going for the easy areas and those are ones that we can service
 just
 fine already and probably do.  The motivation is profit, it
 shouldn't be
 free money.  As someone mentioned before, the majority of these new
 startups
 will be here and gone and they will no doubt give a black eye to the
 wireless business from their lack of experience and sense of
 responsibility
 to both their customer and the reputation of the industry they
 represent.

 The only true Broadband Stimulus would be to open up enough usable
 white
 space spectrum and the market will take care of it from there.

 Guaranteed.


 Robert West
 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.




 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Tim Sylvester
 Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 12:43 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Barriers to WISP growth

 Stimulus: I don't believe in it and did not apply.

 I want to understand people's opposition to the Broadband Stimulus
 programs.


 Rick and other people opposed to the stimulus, can you expand on why
 you
 don't believe in the Stimulus and why you didn't apply? Are there
 things you
 think the government - FCC, congress, etc. - could do to help ISPs  
 and
 expanding broadband?

 Tim






 
 
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 --
 Chuck Bartosch
 Clarity Connect, Inc.
 200 Pleasant Grove Road
 Ithaca, NY 14850
 (607) 257-8268

 When the stars threw down their spears,
 and water'd heaven with their tears,
 Did He smile, His work to see?
 Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!





 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Waverider Vs Alvarion VL 900

2009-09-29 Thread Chuck Bartosch
You shouldn't have to worry too much about the old product because I  
think they did a 100% field upgrade at no cost to owners of those AUs,  
right? You should still check, but I would hope it'd be unusual to  
find an upgraded unit for sale.

Chuck

On Sep 29, 2009, at 12:30 AM, Nick Huanca wrote:

 Hi Jon,

 We've had extensive experience with the VL900 product line, even  
 through its
 rough release to market. After Alvarion fixed their hardware and  
 software
 bugs I could recommend this product hands down based on our  
 experience.
 Beware of used equipment that may not operate *at all* in minimal  
 noise.
 There was a revision to the hardware on the AUs to remedy this.

 Thanks,
 --Nick Huanca

 On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com 
 wrote:

 I have no experience with the Waverider equipment, but Alvarion's
 pretty darn good (and we do have experience with that).

 Chuck

 On Sep 28, 2009, at 5:24 PM, my_em...@webjogger.net wrote:

 Hi,

 We're planning to upgrade a lot of our 900MHz equipment which is
 currently predominantly Alvarion Breeze Access 900. The main goal is
 to
 provide the customer with better speeds

 The 2 options I'm considering are Alvarion VL900 and Waverider  
 CCU8000

 I was wondering if anyone has experience with using both of these
 radios, and if so, all considered which one do you think is  
 generally
 better?

 Thanks,

 --
 Jon Roux
 Webjogger Internet Services
 http://www.webjogger.net
 845.757.4000





 
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 --
 Chuck Bartosch
 Clarity Connect, Inc.
 200 Pleasant Grove Road
 Ithaca, NY 14850
 (607) 257-8268

 When the stars threw down their spears,
 and water'd heaven with their tears,
 Did He smile, His work to see?
 Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






 
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 -- 
 Nick Huanca


 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] BIP/BTOP Mapping Tool Online

2009-09-28 Thread Chuck Bartosch
The comment period can't open until they've announced the finalists.  
They are supposed to start doing that on Wed. (though we'll find out  
if they are on schedule or not in a couple of days I guess). They've  
said it's a rolling announcement-meaning they *start* announcing on  
Wed (if they are on schedule) but won't finish until they say they are  
finished.

They haven't said if you can start commenting when they start  
announcing or if they'll wait until everyone is announced and then  
open up the 30 day period for everyone. The latter approach would make  
more sense of course.

Chuck


On Sep 28, 2009, at 8:54 AM, Steve Barnes wrote:

 When Is the comment period supposed to be opened?

 Steve Barnes
 Manager
 PCS-WIN
 RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service

 Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through  
 experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened,  
 vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved.
 - Helen Keller

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On Behalf Of Charles Wu
 Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 3:41 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] BIP/BTOP Mapping Tool Online

 Posting to multiple lists -- apologies if anyone gets this twice

 At some point last evening, RUS and NTIA released a modified version  
 of the BIP/BTOP applicant mapping tool, which now provides public  
 access to applicant mapping data.  Right now, nothing has been  
 loaded in terms of public notices or on the map, so the 30 day  
 comment period has not yet started. The tool can be accessed at 
 http://broadbandsearch.sc.egov.usda.gov/DefaultARRA.aspx 
 .

 -Charles


 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Link Planning Software

2009-09-28 Thread Chuck Bartosch

On Sep 28, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

 Actually for most of that Jerry helped me.

Yep, Jerry corrected that comment already.

Chuck


 I certainly agree that RM is very powerful but it's a POS from a  
 usability
 standpoint.  If it were cleaned up and made easier to use I'd have  
 dropped
 the better part of $500 on it.  Software that'll do what it does  
 that's as
 easy to figure out as TopoUSA or any linksys router would be a no  
 brainer
 here.

 Brian helps me with Census tract stuff mostly.
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 8:13 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Link Planning Software


 Marlon used Brian Webster.

 Chuck

 On Sep 23, 2009, at 10:29 PM, Scott Reed wrote:

 Not to be repetitive, but you are describing RadioMobile
 John the RM Yahoo group and see if you can't get it to do just what
 you
 are looking for.
 Seems to me Marlon Schaffer found someone to help him learn it a few
 months ago.  I don't remember who.
 I can help some if you want to ask questions off-list.

 Robert West wrote:
 I was holding this chunk of Organite and praying for such a thing
 and now
 here it is.

 Spooky.

 Get ready for the list, Shaddi.

 For one, this browser based software should not depend on the
 internet, yes?
 The term browser speaks internet to me.  If I'm out in the field
 trying to
 figure out a link I obviously don't have internet there.  Not that
 I see
 myself out in the middle of a corn field with my laptop trying to
 figure it
 out but hey, who knows.

 The basics of course is terrain and elevation but I'd like to see
 how a link
 over water is taken into account rolled into the thing.

 I also have to guess at trees.  If I'm only able to get 70 feet or
 so up and
 the trees around here are also around 70 feet, it might say yes but
 the
 trees would say no.  Could it possibly have a variable where you
 could set
 an average height for stands of trees?  Where I am at, Southern
 Ohio, all
 the patches of trees are pretty much a single average height.  If  
 the
 software could distinguish a large green patch as trees and you
 tell the
 software that the average height is whatever, it could possibly add
 that
 height to the land elevation.  Would be good to have a database of
 various
 antennas and radios to pull from as well.

 Hey!  IDEA!  A new game, Wireless Internet Tycoon!!!  What do ya
 think?
 I've kinda ran off the rails here, sorry.


 You want a wish list?  Grab some paper, pal.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Shaddi Hasan
 Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:37 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Link Planning Software

 Howdy WISPA!

 Just joined today but wanted to chime in -- some students here at
 UNC Chapel
 Hill are working on a browser-based link planning tool as a  
 semester
 project. It will be released as open-source at the end of the
 semester, so
 we'd like it to be useful not only for our projects but for the
 community at
 large. While primarily geared towards community wireless projects,
 it'd be
 great if it could be useful for the professional WISP community.
 So, if you
 have any feedback on what features you'd like to see in such a
 tool, lessons
 you all have learned that should be incorporated into its design,
 or the
 concept generally, please contact me.

 To the OP, check back in December and we might have something to
 offer you!

 Shaddi

 On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Robert West
 robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote:


 What are you folks using to verify the viability of a link before
 you plan
 the build?  I've tried using Radio Mobile but I'll be darned if I
 can't

 get

 that thing to work even with the step by step instructions.  I've
 been
 finding myself just plotting elevations all the way along the link
 in
 Google
 Earth.  Sucks.

 Anyone using a good software app that will plot the links and give
 me the
 easy thumbs up or thumbs down?

 Sorry to be a pain with all these questions.  It's been too hectic
 and I
 just don't have the time to sit for 2 days evaluating crap
 software.  I'd
 rather be told what's good by real users.

 Thanks.



 Organite.  It's not just for breakfast anymore.






 
 

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Re: [WISPA] Waverider Vs Alvarion VL 900

2009-09-28 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I have no experience with the Waverider equipment, but Alvarion's  
pretty darn good (and we do have experience with that).

Chuck

On Sep 28, 2009, at 5:24 PM, my_em...@webjogger.net wrote:

 Hi,

 We're planning to upgrade a lot of our 900MHz equipment which is
 currently predominantly Alvarion Breeze Access 900. The main goal is  
 to
 provide the customer with better speeds

 The 2 options I'm considering are Alvarion VL900 and Waverider CCU8000

 I was wondering if anyone has experience with using both of these
 radios, and if so, all considered which one do you think is generally
 better?

 Thanks,

 -- 
 Jon Roux
 Webjogger Internet Services
 http://www.webjogger.net
 845.757.4000




 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] leaky coax

2009-09-27 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Rather unlikely since the iPhone operates at 850, 900, 1800, 1900, and  
2100 MHz for the cell network (it also supports bluetooth and 802.11 b/ 
g of course).

Chuck

On Sep 26, 2009, at 12:14 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

 Is this for the purpose of interfering with the iPhones?

 On 9/26/09, Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com wrote:
 We used LC quite a bit about 10 years ago in apartments and hotels.  
 Worked
 pretty well.

 Cisco BR342 -- YDI amp -- 200'

 No reason you could not use a splitter and put 2.4 and 5.8 on the  
 same run.

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Rogelio
 Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 7:54 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] leaky coax

 I've got an area of a college football stadium (100K+ people) that  
 has a
 student section with an expected 50% iPhone usage rate, so I'm
 considering a leaky coax solution.

 Does anyone have any experience (good or bad) with such a solution?
 Also, say I want the leaky coax to work on both 2.4 and 5.8, is  
 there a
 special multiplexer thing I gotta put it?

 (I'm new at this and am still researching it)


 
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 -- 
 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Micropops

2009-09-27 Thread Chuck Bartosch
/wireless/






 
 
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 -- 
 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Micropops

2009-09-27 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Not really. That's the point of mentioning the train trip up the  
Mississippi and over to Chicago. That trip is over 1000 miles and  
there are very long stretches with not much there.

Chuck

On Sep 27, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

 Well you're comparing cities to a few miles outside cities.  I'd be
 very disappointed if it didn't work downtown or something.

 On 9/27/09, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com wrote:
 I don't use tethering since I haven't otherwise felt the need to
 jailbreak my phone. On the other hand, I've been extremely pleased
 with ATT's network for Internet access. I took a train from New
 Orleans (still doing reconstruction trips to the Katrina damaged
 areas) to Minneapolis (via Chicago), and then on to Syracuse, NY last
 year and never had a problem using my dongle to get access on my
 laptop (I wasn't using my iPhone for email back then, though I do
 now). The coverage was surprisingly solid. Here in upstate NY I have
 at least Edge coverage wherever I need it.

 I know that's not true in the most rural areas in our territory, but
 all the typical cities, towns, and villages have usable access.

 Chuck

 On Sep 27, 2009, at 12:12 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

 Maybe it's just ATT that has problems everywhere...

 On 9/26/09, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote:
 I've never had a problem tethering with my Sprint phone.  It has
 worked over
 EVDO and whatever their 2.5G was.  Unfortunately, I got a new phone
 that
 Sprint hasn't made it easy to unlock the tethering (last one was  
 just
 install USB drivers).


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com
 Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 5:17 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Micropops

 I have an ATT aircard built into my laptop (Thinkpad t500;  
 Ericsson
 f3507g)
 and if it worked half of the places I try I'd be happy.  Many
 places just
 don't seem offer a strong enough signal and the rest associate but
 never
 get
 pppoe operating.  There have been a few places where their DNS was
 down,
 but
 I got online and used my own DNS.

 Don't count on aircards for remote connectivity (or your cell
 phone for
 data, tethered or not).

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains,
 however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Robert West
 robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote:

 I usually just sit down and cry for a few minutes, somehow find a
 way to
 blame the customer, cry again for a few minutes, etc.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 3:05 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Micropops

 Call the office.  Think it out.  What else are you going to do?
 Turn
 into
 a
 brain dead company like Big Cable Co and scramble when things
 don't work?

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains,
 however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Josh Cheney
 josh.che...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Of course, if the reason you are at a particular site is because
 their
 connection is down, having the docs online doesn't help all that
 much...

 Robert West wrote:
 I agree.  I'd like to eventually have all the docs of every
 install
 online
 so they can be pulled up from wherever I'm at.  Not so for me
 at the
 moment.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:41 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Micropops

 Most people will also say to have the enclosure outdoors  
 (even if
 it's
 another $200 to do so) so you have access to it when the
 resident is
 gone.
 Get paperwork that allows you to do so.

 Installs should have a picture of the SU/SM/CPE, where it
 penetrates
 the
 wall and the POE.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains,
 however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 11:32 PM, jree...@18-30chat.net 
 jree...@18-30chat.net wrote:

 inline

 Mark Nash wrote:
 I'd like to hear opinions on what Micropops do to your
 business.

 1. How many customers do you look for before you install even
 the
 least
 expensive MPoP?
 1
 I can not think of a single person (on my net) that does not
 have a
 laptop.
 They
 need a AP so you mighht as well leverage it (Its mine, I
 manage

Re: [WISPA] Link Planning Software

2009-09-24 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Why not contract with Brian Webster for a couple of hours. He's a true  
expert with the software and it won't take much for him to help you  
through the rough patches...and probably show you tricks you'd never  
figure out on your own.

His contact info is:

Brian Webster
(607) 286-3465 work
(607) 435-3988 cell
bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com

Chuck

On Sep 23, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Robert West wrote:

 You know, I haven't a clue!  It looks simple, heck yes!  Everyone  
 says it's
 easy but I'll be darned if I can't get anything out of it.  Now you  
 also
 have to understand, when I try to work with it I have 3 kids, a cat  
 and the
 wife all wanting something.  Time was not well spent when I've tried  
 it.

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of David E. Smith
 Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:45 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Link Planning Software

 Robert West wrote:
 What are you folks using to verify the viability of a link before  
 you plan
 the build?  I've tried using Radio Mobile but I'll be darned if I  
 can't
 get
 that thing to work even with the step by step instructions.  I've  
 been
 finding myself just plotting elevations all the way along the link in
 Google
 Earth.

 Where are you getting hung up? Radio Mobile is probably the best free
 tool you're gonna get, and once set up, works pretty well. (The
 trickiest part probably is getting the terrain data you need, but you
 only have to do that once.)

 David Smith
 MVN.net


 
 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Link Planning Software

2009-09-24 Thread Chuck Bartosch
.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2390 - Release Date:  
 09/23/09 05:52:00



 -- 
 Scott Reed
 Sr. Systems Engineer
 GAB Midwest
 1-800-363-1544 x4000
 Cell: 260-273-7239



 
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Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Link Planning Software

2009-09-24 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Ah, my apologies! I guess I should have checked that then blush.

Chuck

On Sep 24, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Jerry Richardson wrote:

 Actually, that was me.

 Jerry

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch
 Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 8:14 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Link Planning Software

 Marlon used Brian Webster.

 Chuck

 On Sep 23, 2009, at 10:29 PM, Scott Reed wrote:

 Not to be repetitive, but you are describing RadioMobile
 John the RM Yahoo group and see if you can't get it to do just what
 you
 are looking for.
 Seems to me Marlon Schaffer found someone to help him learn it a few
 months ago.  I don't remember who.
 I can help some if you want to ask questions off-list.

 Robert West wrote:
 I was holding this chunk of Organite and praying for such a thing
 and now
 here it is.

 Spooky.

 Get ready for the list, Shaddi.

 For one, this browser based software should not depend on the
 internet, yes?
 The term browser speaks internet to me.  If I'm out in the field
 trying to
 figure out a link I obviously don't have internet there.  Not that
 I see
 myself out in the middle of a corn field with my laptop trying to
 figure it
 out but hey, who knows.

 The basics of course is terrain and elevation but I'd like to see
 how a link
 over water is taken into account rolled into the thing.

 I also have to guess at trees.  If I'm only able to get 70 feet or
 so up and
 the trees around here are also around 70 feet, it might say yes but
 the
 trees would say no.  Could it possibly have a variable where you
 could set
 an average height for stands of trees?  Where I am at, Southern
 Ohio, all
 the patches of trees are pretty much a single average height.  If  
 the
 software could distinguish a large green patch as trees and you
 tell the
 software that the average height is whatever, it could possibly add
 that
 height to the land elevation.  Would be good to have a database of
 various
 antennas and radios to pull from as well.

 Hey!  IDEA!  A new game, Wireless Internet Tycoon!!!  What do ya
 think?
 I've kinda ran off the rails here, sorry.


 You want a wish list?  Grab some paper, pal.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Shaddi Hasan
 Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:37 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Link Planning Software

 Howdy WISPA!

 Just joined today but wanted to chime in -- some students here at
 UNC Chapel
 Hill are working on a browser-based link planning tool as a semester
 project. It will be released as open-source at the end of the
 semester, so
 we'd like it to be useful not only for our projects but for the
 community at
 large. While primarily geared towards community wireless projects,
 it'd be
 great if it could be useful for the professional WISP community.
 So, if you
 have any feedback on what features you'd like to see in such a
 tool, lessons
 you all have learned that should be incorporated into its design,
 or the
 concept generally, please contact me.

 To the OP, check back in December and we might have something to
 offer you!

 Shaddi

 On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Robert West
 robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote:


 What are you folks using to verify the viability of a link before
 you plan
 the build?  I've tried using Radio Mobile but I'll be darned if I
 can't

 get

 that thing to work even with the step by step instructions.  I've
 been
 finding myself just plotting elevations all the way along the link
 in
 Google
 Earth.  Sucks.

 Anyone using a good software app that will plot the links and give
 me the
 easy thumbs up or thumbs down?

 Sorry to be a pain with all these questions.  It's been too hectic
 and I
 just don't have the time to sit for 2 days evaluating crap
 software.  I'd
 rather be told what's good by real users.

 Thanks.



 Organite.  It's not just for breakfast anymore.






 
 

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Re: [WISPA] The Net Neutrality speech we've all been waiting for

2009-09-21 Thread Chuck Bartosch
If you're rate limiting in a neutral way, why would it bring your  
network to its knees? Doesn't matter who the packets are coming from  
or going to if you rate limit the total number of packets a user can  
generate/receive, right?

Chuck

On Sep 21, 2009, at 12:33 PM, David E. Smith wrote:

 http://openinternet.gov/read-speech.html

 In addition to the four classic Network neutrality principles, the  
 FCC
 plans to pursue two more. Quotes from the speech:

 * The fifth principle is one of non-discrimination -- stating that
 broadband providers cannot discriminate against particular Internet
 content or applications.
 * The sixth principle is a transparency principle -- stating that
 providers of broadband Internet access must be transparent about their
 network management practices.

 I love the sixth one, but number five gives me the willies. Nope,
 doesn't matter that BitTorrent users bring your network to its knees,
 you're not allowed to do anything about it. Please tell me I'm  
 missing
 something.

 David Smith
 MVN.net



 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] Searchable Map of Stimulus projects

2009-09-19 Thread Chuck Bartosch
It depends on what you're buying from them, but the basic answer is  
no they do not have to sell at their cost.

If you're buying transit, you strike your own deal with the bandwidth  
supplier. In that sense you're just paying cost on the bandwidth.

But, they have to determine the transit terms for the application.  
That will include a profit number for them. But, they have to live  
with the proposal they make.

They can also sell bandwidth, at a predesigned schedule. They make a  
profit there too, but they have to live with their proposed schedule.

That or I missed something big in the NOFA.


Chuck
Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 19, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just- 
micro.com wrote:

 Okay, so for the grant they MUST provide the bandwidth for the same  
 price
 they are paying for it???  But are they then able to throw a bunch  
 of BS
 fees on top of it?  If they have to provide at the same price, then  
 it's not
 bad but I suspect it will be more cumbersome.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Charles Wu
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 2:33 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Searchable Map of Stimulus projects

 In our case, our competitor applied for a shade under a million  
 bucks to
 provide middle mile into the area, as in to bring cheaper broadband  
 to the
 masses.  That doesn't sound like it will benefit us, the cheaper  
 broadband
 is for their system.

 If it's a middle mile application, they would be in violation of their
 funding contract if they bandwidth wasn't available to you for the  
 same
 price that they're buying it for -- IMO, you would win either way

 1. You get access to cheap bandwidth for the same price as them
 2. They deny you access, you report them to the government, they get
 audited, shut down, thrown in jail, you have one less competitor,  
 and you
 get to buy their system for pennies on the dollar =)

 -Charles


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch
 Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:28 PM
 To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Searchable Map of Stimulus projects

 Though it is a requirement (as Tim set out), the requirement doesn't
 really have a lot of teeth in my view. If a competitor doesn't want





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Re: [WISPA] Searchable Map of Stimulus projects

2009-09-19 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I absolutely agree. The open access stuff really only has meaning for  
us on fiber where total capacity is functionally unlimited in a new  
build out.

Chuck

On Sep 19, 2009, at 5:58 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:

 The issue is that access to bandwidth can only be sold if it is still
 available and not already sold to someon else.

 Open Access is very relevent for fiber networks, but for wireless  
 middle
 mile grants, it will be very easy to simply say the capacity has  
 been sold
 already.

 Example:
 Grant  winner builds out 300mbps licensed link. Grant winner agrees  
 to open
 access. Grant winner sells 300mbps of capacity to Wholesale partner.
 Grant winner no longer has to sell bandwidth to anyone else, its  
 already all
 been sold.  Wholesale partner reserves it all, and sells it to subs as
 ordered over time. The grant winner itself is subject to the sharing  
 rules,
 but the wholesale partner that capacity was sold to, will not  
 necessarilly
 be subject to sharing.  I see so many possibilities for games, to  
 control
 who does and doesn't get access to the bandwidth.

 In our unsubmitted application, we legitimately wanted multiple  
 wholesale
 partners, and pre-defined who we'd sell it to, and pre-allocated  
 capacity
 for that.
 I'm not so sure other grant applicants equally embrace the wholesale  
 open
 access principles. In my mind, I think history should be the ruling  
 factor.
 If someone preveiously whoesaled, they are likely to continue  
 wanting to
 wholesale. If they didn;t before, they probably wont want to  
 afterwords, and
 will likely play games. Just my opinion.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Charles Wu
 IMCEAEX-_O=CTI_OU=EXCHANGE+20ADMINISTRATIVE+20GROUP 
 +20+28fydibohf23spdlt+29_cn=recipients_cn=char...@converge-tech.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 2:33 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Searchable Map of Stimulus projects


 In our case, our competitor applied for a shade under a million  
 bucks to
 provide middle mile into the area, as in to bring cheaper  
 broadband to the
 masses.  That doesn't sound like it will benefit us, the cheaper  
 broadband
 is for their system.

 If it's a middle mile application, they would be in violation of  
 their
 funding contract if they bandwidth wasn't available to you for the  
 same
 price that they're buying it for -- IMO, you would win either way

 1. You get access to cheap bandwidth for the same price as them
 2. They deny you access, you report them to the government, they get
 audited, shut down, thrown in jail, you have one less competitor,  
 and you
 get to buy their system for pennies on the dollar =)

 -Charles


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch
 Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:28 PM
 To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Searchable Map of Stimulus projects

 Though it is a requirement (as Tim set out), the requirement doesn't
 really have a lot of teeth in my view. If a competitor doesn't want
 you on, they can design it so it's hard to get on.

 For example, a fiber carrier has to have an attachment point built in
 for you to attach at a given location. If there isn't one nearby,  
 well
 tough.

 If there is an attachment point but you can't come to terms, it goes
 to arbitration. However, they aren't obligated to give you wholesale
 access...just attachment, whatever the heck that means. There just
 seems to me to be 100 ways to Sunday for a large carrier to play  
 their
 usual games with this stuff and block the intent.

 So basically, based on the wording of the rule, it's hard to see how
 they are going to achieve the intent behind the goal unless the
 provider is willing to and interested in doing so.

 Chuck


 On Sep 15, 2009, at 10:39 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:

 Does the process explicitly say that an awarded company has to open
 their network to competition? Or is this sort of a vague rule?

 Scottie

 -- Original Message --
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:06:11 -0400

 There is no provision in the rules to protest a plan because you
 don't
 think it's a good plan.

 In fact, there's an OMB circular (from July I believe) that
 explicitly
 disallows ANY communication until the evaluation process is over
 about
 individual applications with the grant reviewers OR the agency over
 anything except for contesting an application due to your coverage
 area. I don't think I kept a copy of that circular, but I'm sure  
 you
 can find it on line.

 The only exception is if they reach out to you-but they are
 instructed
 to ignore and refuse any other input. They are bound by law on  
 this.

 Just to be clear here, you *could

Re: [WISPA] Searchable Map of Stimulus projects

2009-09-17 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Why not? You should be able to take advantage of that cheaper  
bandwidth too I'd think. Assuming it's a fiber build, they are going  
to have tons of excess capacity.

Chuck

On Sep 17, 2009, at 9:20 AM, Robert West wrote:

 In our case, our competitor applied for a shade under a million  
 bucks to
 provide middle mile into the area, as in to bring cheaper broadband  
 to the
 masses.  That doesn't sound like it will benefit us, the cheaper  
 broadband
 is for their system.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch
 Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:28 PM
 To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Searchable Map of Stimulus projects

 Though it is a requirement (as Tim set out), the requirement doesn't
 really have a lot of teeth in my view. If a competitor doesn't want
 you on, they can design it so it's hard to get on.

 For example, a fiber carrier has to have an attachment point built in
 for you to attach at a given location. If there isn't one nearby, well
 tough.

 If there is an attachment point but you can't come to terms, it goes
 to arbitration. However, they aren't obligated to give you wholesale
 access...just attachment, whatever the heck that means. There just
 seems to me to be 100 ways to Sunday for a large carrier to play their
 usual games with this stuff and block the intent.

 So basically, based on the wording of the rule, it's hard to see how
 they are going to achieve the intent behind the goal unless the
 provider is willing to and interested in doing so.

 Chuck


 On Sep 15, 2009, at 10:39 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:

 Does the process explicitly say that an awarded company has to open
 their network to competition? Or is this sort of a vague rule?

 Scottie

 -- Original Message --
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:06:11 -0400

 There is no provision in the rules to protest a plan because you
 don't
 think it's a good plan.

 In fact, there's an OMB circular (from July I believe) that
 explicitly
 disallows ANY communication until the evaluation process is over
 about
 individual applications with the grant reviewers OR the agency over
 anything except for contesting an application due to your coverage
 area. I don't think I kept a copy of that circular, but I'm sure you
 can find it on line.

 The only exception is if they reach out to you-but they are
 instructed
 to ignore and refuse any other input. They are bound by law on this.

 Just to be clear here, you *could* talk to them in very general  
 terms
 about how the application process worked. But you cannot talk in any
 form about an individual application, yours or anyone else's.

 It might sound like I'm nay-saying here, but I'm just pointing out
 what the law allows you to do-and it doesn't allow the approach
 you're
 suggesting as I understood the circular.

 Chuck

 On Sep 15, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Its also feasible to protest a plan simply because its a poor plan.
 The
 NTIA/RUS needs to approve grants for companies that use tax payer
 money
 optimally wisely and benefit the public, and
 adhere to the NOFA rules.  If you think you can do a better plan,
 but didn;t
 have time to submit it until Round2, why should the ROund1 plan get
 approved
 if its less good?
 And if one doubts the entent of an applicant, we should tell NTIA
 what we
 think. We are not only competing providers, but we are also the
 public that
 has to pay the taxes 5to fund these projects.

 I know in my State, there were numerous good applications that
 targeted
 truely needy areas, and made an effort to avoid other provider
 infrastructure. I plan to support those projects.
 For example only about 20% in my opinion were bad applications that
 would
 directly compete with me and other WISPs in their core markets.  I
 plan to
 protest that 20%.  Anyone that was smart would have avoided pre-
 existing
 providers or called them a head of time to work benefit for them
 into the
 proposal to gain their support.  If they didn't do that, they
 deserve to
 have their applications protested, in my opinion.

 As well, if a grant application covers an area that you entended on
 applying
 for in Round2, I see no problem in telling NTIA/RUS that, and
 advising that
 the Round1 funds are oversubscribed, and Round1 funds should go to
 projects
 without alledged conflict of interests first, and at minimum deny
 the
 conflcit of interest applicants until round2, where they can be  
 mroe
 fairly
 considered, and so there is more time to gain fact on what is and
 isn't
 underserved areas, and consider all potential applicants for the
 areas.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: L. Aaron Kaplan aa...@lo-res.org
 To: WISPA

Re: [WISPA] Keep your Internet away from my garlic!

2009-09-17 Thread Chuck Bartosch
I local organic store (with a small farming operation) just  
successfully got a cell tower approval moved some 1000' further away  
for just this reason.

Ironically, he uses a cell phone. But, facts notwithstanding, he was  
able to mobilize a large group of folks from his mailing lists to  
fight the tower so it was out of sight (and I guess out of mind, even  
though 1000' further away isn't going to make much difference...).

Chuck

On Sep 17, 2009, at 2:21 PM, David E. Smith wrote:

 Just in case the I'm allergic to wi-fi folks weren't enough  
 comedy...

 A Nova Scotia garlic farmer has put the brakes on high-speed internet
 coming to Victoria Harbour, a rural community on the Bay of Fundy,
 fearing radiation from microwave towers will affect his crops.

 Lenny Levine, who has been planting and harvesting garlic by hand on
 his Annapolis Valley land since the 1970s, is* afraid his organic  
 crop
 could be irradiated* if EastLink builds a microwave tower for  
 wireless
 high-speed internet access a few hundred metres from his farm.

 http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/09/16/ns-internet-tower.html


 David Smith
 MVN.net




 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
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Re: [WISPA] Searchable Map of Stimulus projects

2009-09-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Though it is a requirement (as Tim set out), the requirement doesn't  
really have a lot of teeth in my view. If a competitor doesn't want  
you on, they can design it so it's hard to get on.

For example, a fiber carrier has to have an attachment point built in  
for you to attach at a given location. If there isn't one nearby, well  
tough.

If there is an attachment point but you can't come to terms, it goes  
to arbitration. However, they aren't obligated to give you wholesale  
access...just attachment, whatever the heck that means. There just  
seems to me to be 100 ways to Sunday for a large carrier to play their  
usual games with this stuff and block the intent.

So basically, based on the wording of the rule, it's hard to see how  
they are going to achieve the intent behind the goal unless the  
provider is willing to and interested in doing so.

Chuck


On Sep 15, 2009, at 10:39 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:

 Does the process explicitly say that an awarded company has to open  
 their network to competition? Or is this sort of a vague rule?

 Scottie

 -- Original Message --
 From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:06:11 -0400

 There is no provision in the rules to protest a plan because you  
 don't
 think it's a good plan.

 In fact, there's an OMB circular (from July I believe) that  
 explicitly
 disallows ANY communication until the evaluation process is over  
 about
 individual applications with the grant reviewers OR the agency over
 anything except for contesting an application due to your coverage
 area. I don't think I kept a copy of that circular, but I'm sure you
 can find it on line.

 The only exception is if they reach out to you-but they are  
 instructed
 to ignore and refuse any other input. They are bound by law on this.

 Just to be clear here, you *could* talk to them in very general terms
 about how the application process worked. But you cannot talk in any
 form about an individual application, yours or anyone else's.

 It might sound like I'm nay-saying here, but I'm just pointing out
 what the law allows you to do-and it doesn't allow the approach  
 you're
 suggesting as I understood the circular.

 Chuck

 On Sep 15, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Its also feasible to protest a plan simply because its a poor plan.
 The
 NTIA/RUS needs to approve grants for companies that use tax payer
 money
 optimally wisely and benefit the public, and
 adhere to the NOFA rules.  If you think you can do a better plan,
 but didn;t
 have time to submit it until Round2, why should the ROund1 plan get
 approved
 if its less good?
 And if one doubts the entent of an applicant, we should tell NTIA
 what we
 think. We are not only competing providers, but we are also the
 public that
 has to pay the taxes 5to fund these projects.

 I know in my State, there were numerous good applications that
 targeted
 truely needy areas, and made an effort to avoid other provider
 infrastructure. I plan to support those projects.
 For example only about 20% in my opinion were bad applications that
 would
 directly compete with me and other WISPs in their core markets.  I
 plan to
 protest that 20%.  Anyone that was smart would have avoided pre-
 existing
 providers or called them a head of time to work benefit for them
 into the
 proposal to gain their support.  If they didn't do that, they
 deserve to
 have their applications protested, in my opinion.

 As well, if a grant application covers an area that you entended on
 applying
 for in Round2, I see no problem in telling NTIA/RUS that, and
 advising that
 the Round1 funds are oversubscribed, and Round1 funds should go to
 projects
 without alledged conflict of interests first, and at minimum deny  
 the
 conflcit of interest applicants until round2, where they can be mroe
 fairly
 considered, and so there is more time to gain fact on what is and
 isn't
 underserved areas, and consider all potential applicants for the
 areas.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: L. Aaron Kaplan aa...@lo-res.org
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:19 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Searchable Map of Stimulus projects




 Seriously?  You would categorize government-subsidized broadband
 expansion
 as capitalistic competition?


 I should have said - receiving some funds and thus increasing the
 speed of biz expansion.
 I see nothing un-capitalistic per se about receiving funds in order
 to
 revive the economy.

 The real question however is, will *only* the big boys get  
 something
 thus driving the smaller boys out of biz!
 (maybe that is the case in the original posting and I just did not
 know it).


 *If* the stimulus package would be needed in the first place  
 however,
 is of course a completely different topic

Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices

2009-09-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
To answer your question, we're using the B14, B28, and B100's from  
Alvarion for this kind of thing. We're extremely happy. I think the  
pricing is close to your goal, but the truth is, I don't recall what  
it costs off hand.

Chuck

On Sep 16, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

 Uh, guys, this is interesting.  But it doesn't answer the original  
 question!

 I don't have a need for a 100meg full duplex backhaul solution.  20  
 megs
 both ways will do just fine for now.

 What ideas do y'all have for a 20+ meg backhaul solution.  Something  
 less
 than $3000 if it's at all possible.

 I know about the MT gear.  I''ve already used one.  And I REALLY  
 like the
 Airaya gear it'll replace.  I'm just wondering what people are using  
 and
 liking.  I don't want any unproven brand new gear.  Or  something  
 too cheap
 like an 802.11a ap and client setup.

 thanks,
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices


 On Wed, 2009-09-16 at 13:22 -0400, ralph wrote:
 As far as I can tell from the FCC info, only 2 routerboards have  
 any FCC
 Part 15 Class A or B computing device approval.
 They are the Crossroads and the RB411- both of which already have on
 board
 wireless.

 You are half correct.  The Crossroads does have a built-in radio.   
 The
 RB411 does not.  There IS a RB411R that has a built-in radio  
 (2.4GHz).

 -- 
 
 * Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
 * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
 * http://www.wispa.org/ * Wired or Wireless Networks   *
 * http://blog.butchevans.com/   * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE!  *
 



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



 
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--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices

2009-09-16 Thread Chuck Bartosch
If there's any chance of your ever wanting more bandwidth, I'd not go  
to 3.65 for the link.

However, our experience with Redline is pretty good too. We don't use  
them these days but if I weren't happy with Alvarion, that's where I'd  
go for relatively low cost back haul links. I say relatively because  
it's neither will be as cheap as a 'tik solution nor as expensive as  
going DragonWave or Ceregon, which are overkill for your application.

Chuck

On Sep 16, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

 Marlon - looked into Redline an80i 3.65?   It's like 3k for the low
 speed key of 14 megs and maybe 4k for something more like 40 megs.
 You can upgrade from low to high speed key later at no dollar penalty.
 Keep in mind low speed is 7mhz and high speed is 20mhz.

 On 9/16/09, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote:
 Uh, guys, this is interesting.  But it doesn't answer the original  
 question!

 I don't have a need for a 100meg full duplex backhaul solution.  20  
 megs
 both ways will do just fine for now.

 What ideas do y'all have for a 20+ meg backhaul solution.   
 Something less
 than $3000 if it's at all possible.

 I know about the MT gear.  I''ve already used one.  And I REALLY  
 like the
 Airaya gear it'll replace.  I'm just wondering what people are  
 using and
 liking.  I don't want any unproven brand new gear.  Or  something  
 too cheap
 like an 802.11a ap and client setup.

 thanks,
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] backhaul choices


 On Wed, 2009-09-16 at 13:22 -0400, ralph wrote:
 As far as I can tell from the FCC info, only 2 routerboards have  
 any FCC
 Part 15 Class A or B computing device approval.
 They are the Crossroads and the RB411- both of which already have  
 on
 board
 wireless.

 You are half correct.  The Crossroads does have a built-in radio.   
 The
 RB411 does not.  There IS a RB411R that has a built-in radio  
 (2.4GHz).

 --
 
 * Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
 * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
 * http://www.wispa.org/ * Wired or Wireless Networks   *
 * http://blog.butchevans.com/   * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE!  *
 



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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 -- 
 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 
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 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

--
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

When the stars threw down their spears,
and water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile, His work to see?
Did He who made the Lamb make thee?

 From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!






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