[WISPA] The Bottom Line

2010-06-14 Thread Jason Wallace
Gang,

I've been working away, keeping my head down and nose to the 
grindstone for a while.  Last week, I finally looked up and calculated 
what my little WISP is making after 5 years of working on it and working 
another job (sometimes 2 jobs, one of which is being a youth pastor) for 
60 to 80 hours per week.

For the time I put into the WISP, I make somewhere between 5 and 6 
dollars per hour. 

My biggest obstacle (and expense) is bandwidth.  I am in the high desert 
of SE Arizona, and there are $800 T1's.  That's all I've found.

Is there any one out there that knows something I don't about bandwidth 
possibilities?  Currently, the margin is just too thin.

Jason



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Re: [WISPA] The Bottom Line

2010-06-14 Thread Jason Wallace
The nearest town of any size is Willcox Arizona, 25 to 30 miles away.  
T1's there are $400 ish per month, which is an improvement.  Because of 
regulations and contractors, etc, towers in Arizona are a huge expense; 
30k or so minimum.  No do-it-yourselfing.  I am looking at this option, 
but it is a lot of effort for a little improvement. 

Tucson is the nearest major city.  It is 80 miles and 2 mountain ranges 
away.



David E. Smith wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 17:09, Jason Wallace supp...@azii.net wrote:
 My biggest obstacle (and expense) is bandwidth.  I am in the high desert
 of SE Arizona, and there are $800 T1's.  That's all I've found.

 What's the nearest major city? Is bandwidth substantially cheaper
 there? You may want to consider investing in a big backhaul link from
 there, to you. Yeah, the one-time costs of putting up a tower or
 three, especially if you need to invest in licensed links, can be
 pretty harsh, but if you're in it for the long haul it may be
 worthwhile.

 David Smith
 MVN.net


 
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Re: [WISPA] The Bottom Line

2010-06-14 Thread Jason Wallace
Sorry I wasn't clearer on my location; didn't occur to me in my moment 
of exasperation ;-)

My coverage area centers on Pearce, AZ.  I can see the flashing tower 
lights in Willcox.  Douglas is 60 miles south, and Sierra Vista is on 
the other side of the Dragoon mountain range.  Dragoon (the town) is 
just around the northern edge of the Dragoon Mtns, and is not reachable 
by a direct shot from my NOC, but might be with 1 hop.

Blake Covarrubias wrote:
 The mailing address on the site says Pearce, AZ. He says he's in the heart of 
 the Sulphur Valley. I'm not too familiar with that side of AZ, but a search 
 for Sulphur Valley, AZ on GMaps turns up quite a few businesses located all 
 over that region. I didn't want to assume he was only in Pearce.

 We've got coverage all around Yuma and throughout California's Imperial 
 Valley, and pick up transit at several points within our coverage area.

 --
 Blake Covarrubias

 On Jun 14, 2010, at 6:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

 I went to his website to see where he was.  ;-)

 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 On 6/14/2010 7:41 PM, Blake Covarrubias wrote:
 Where in AZ are you? I just noticed you said you're 25-30 miles from, and 
 not in, Willcox.

 I have a great working relationship with a provider who has service in 
 Sierra Vista. Are you close to that?

 --
 Blake Covarrubias

 On Jun 14, 2010, at 17:00, Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com  wrote:


 Lol Blake...beat me to the punch =)

 -Charles

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
 Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
 Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 6:31 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] The Bottom Line

 Jason,

 Have you SparkPlug.net to see they have service in your area?

 We operate in Yuma, AZ (and surrounding areas). If I recall correctly 
 SparkPlug approached us a while back trying to sell us very cheap 100mbps 
 transit. If they have connectivity in your area they may be able to offer 
 similar pricing.

 We own most of our tower sites throughout our service area. If you'd like 
 to contact me off-list I could put you in touch with someone at my company 
 would be able to help you find or build towers in your area.

 --
 Blake Covarrubias

 On Jun 14, 2010, at 3:33 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:


 Antennasearch.com might help.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 14, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Jerry Richardson
 jrichard...@aircloud.com  wrote:


 Do an FCC search for towers between yourself and Tuscon and/or
 Willcox. you may be able to put together a path across existing
 towers.

 You may even find a tower that has bandwidth that you can buy at a
 better rate than 533.00/Meg.

 Jerry

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On Behalf Of Jason Wallace
 Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 3:27 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] The Bottom Line

 The nearest town of any size is Willcox Arizona, 25 to 30 miles away.
 T1's there are $400 ish per month, which is an improvement.  Because
 of
 regulations and contractors, etc, towers in Arizona are a huge
 expense;
 30k or so minimum.  No do-it-yourselfing.  I am looking at this
 option,
 but it is a lot of effort for a little improvement.

 Tucson is the nearest major city.  It is 80 miles and 2 mountain
 ranges
 away.



 David E. Smith wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 17:09, Jason Wallacesupp...@azii.net
 wrote:

 My biggest obstacle (and expense) is bandwidth.  I am in the high
 desert
 of SE Arizona, and there are $800 T1's.  That's all I've found.

 What's the nearest major city? Is bandwidth substantially cheaper
 there? You may want to consider investing in a big backhaul link from
 there, to you. Yeah, the one-time costs of putting up a tower or
 three, especially if you need to invest in licensed links, can be
 pretty harsh, but if you're in it for the long haul it may be
 worthwhile.

 David Smith
 MVN.net


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[WISPA] 2.4 Airgrids?

2010-04-30 Thread Jason Wallace
Does anyone on the north American continent have Ubiquiti AirGrids 
(20dbi 2.4ghz) in stock?



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[WISPA] QOS tc filter examples

2010-04-28 Thread Jason Wallace
I am finding that I need to improve the QOS of my network (I picked up a 
few customers with lots of teens, etc).  Right now I use tc rules to 
limit everyone to the contracted speeds, but would like to use tc filter 
rules to give KNOWN GOOD traffic a good priority and UNKNOWN traffic a 
lesser priority.  This will probably be done for each individual ip 
address (this is how it's set up right now). 

Does anyone know where I can find some examples of tc filters that will 
catch good traffic like html, dns, interactive, VOIP, maybe 
video/flash/streaming?

Also, can anyone direct me to a info on using tc/iptables to limit the 
number of connections per ip address?

Jason



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Re: [WISPA] QOS tc filter examples

2010-04-28 Thread Jason Wallace




Rick,
 I had considered that. Then I read Butch's blog about when he
developed it, and there were a few things that I think would prevent it
from working correctly in my network:
1. His script seems to be tailored for RouterOS; he mentions that the
script uses the PCQ qdisc (which is RouterOS only) and my router is
linux based.
2. It sounds like it was built to control the flows in a macroscopic
network-wide way, I will need the filters to be applied to every IP
individually.

I could start with his script, but I'd have to do a lot of rewriting, I
think. The router I have is just loafing and I really don't want
another box to do this if I don't have to.

Jason



RickG wrote:

  Contact Butch Evans, pay small amount for his script, problem solved! -RickG

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Jason Wallace supp...@azii.net wrote:
  
  
I am finding that I need to improve the QOS of my network (I picked up a
few customers with lots of teens, etc). Right now I use tc rules to
limit everyone to the contracted speeds, but would like to use tc filter
rules to give KNOWN GOOD traffic a good priority and UNKNOWN traffic a
lesser priority. This will probably be done for each individual ip
address (this is how it's set up right now).

Does anyone know where I can find some examples of tc filters that will
"catch" good traffic like html, dns, interactive, VOIP, maybe
video/flash/streaming?

Also, can anyone direct me to a info on using tc/iptables to limit the
number of connections per ip address?

Jason



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[WISPA] Court: FCC has no power to regulate Net neutrality

2010-04-06 Thread Jason Wallace
I did not see this come across the list yet.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20001825-38.html?part=rsssubj=newstag=2547-1_3-0-20
 




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[WISPA] Bit Cap Thresholds, etc

2010-03-31 Thread Jason Wallace
I have a few questions for those of you who sell bandwidth by the byte:

1. What is the threshold you use, ie, 3Gb in 30 days, or do you have 
different packages?
2. Is this total bytes in  out or just in?
3. What do you charge for overages?
4. Have you considered just throttling back customers like the satellite 
guys do?

Jason



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Re: [WISPA] NPR Story on FCC Broadband Plan and Internet AccessinTrinity County California

2010-03-18 Thread Jason Wallace




I ran a squid cache (3.1.X) and saw about a 30% bandwidth savings. But
it broke facebook... No more squid.


Jason W
RickG wrote:

  Then you get the calls saying "I cant get to this website" or "the
website doesnt come up right", etc.etc.

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Jeromie Reeves jree...@18-30chat.net wrote:
  
  
A caching proxy server would help that a lot. I am in the middle of
moving things around but when it was active
I was seeing a 30% drop in traffic that was not P2P.

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 10:03 AM, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:


  I'm a provider for a small rural school, where the computer lab has about 25
machines in it.  I provide them 5 meg, and have been thinking about turning
it up a little, because during certain times in their computer classes, they
seriously swamp that 5 megs, and they don't do p2p or download ISO's or
anything else.  It's just that 25 people clicking on the same links at the
same moment, especially if it's some site with a small video clip or
something, easily can use all 5 meg and even 10 meg and still have it feel
slow.

Not only that, to save money, the school IT guy moved the school's website
to a server located at the school.

Satellite... Is not adequate for school use, as far as I'm concerned.




++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200 509-386-4589
++


  
  
Yes Hughes Satelite performs very poorly. But I'd also argue, how fast
does
20 computers for elementary school kids really need to be?



  5. What would it cost to deploy a 100 mile microwave link between Corning
and Weaverville with a minimum of 50Mbps of bandwidth but preferably
100Mbps
  

I'm sure they could do it for much less than the $50k.


  
  



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Re: [WISPA] NPR Story on FCC Broadband Plan and Internet AccessinTrinity County California

2010-03-18 Thread Jason Wallace




Mostly, it broke the uploader.  No one could upload pictures. 
Also,things would just time-out or facebook would just not log in.

I was doing transparent interception and redirecting with iptables. 
The network is NAT'ed and squid was on the NAT machine.  I worked hard
to make it work, even corresponding with the developers, but finally
gave up.

Jason W
Josh Luthman wrote:

  How did it break Facebook?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill



On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Jason Wallace supp...@azii.net wrote:
  
  
I ran a squid cache (3.1.X) and saw about a 30% bandwidth savings.  But it
broke facebook...  No more squid.


Jason W
RickG wrote:

Then you get the calls saying "I cant get to this website" or "the
website doesnt come up right", etc.etc.

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Jeromie Reeves jree...@18-30chat.net
wrote:


A caching proxy server would help that a lot. I am in the middle of
moving things around but when it was active
I was seeing a 30% drop in traffic that was not P2P.

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 10:03 AM, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:


I'm a provider for a small rural school, where the computer lab has about 25
machines in it.   I provide them 5 meg, and have been thinking about turning
it up a little, because during certain times in their computer classes, they
seriously swamp that 5 megs, and they don't do p2p or download ISO's or
anything else.   It's just that 25 people clicking on the same links at the
same moment, especially if it's some site with a small video clip or
something,  easily can use all 5 meg and even 10 meg and still have it feel
slow.

Not only that, to save money, the school IT guy moved the school's website
to a server located at the school.

Satellite... Is not adequate for school use, as far as I'm concerned.




++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++




Yes Hughes Satelite performs very poorly. But I'd also argue, how fast
does
20 computers for elementary school kids really need to be?



5. What would it cost to deploy a 100 mile microwave link between Corning
and Weaverville with a minimum of 50Mbps of bandwidth but preferably
100Mbps


I'm sure they could do it for much less than the $50k.




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[WISPA] Data Site Consortium Threats?

2010-03-02 Thread Jason Wallace
Does anyone know anything about a company named Data Site Consortium?

Someone named Debra Dupée is calling and asking for information about my 
company that has to do with the Federal Broadband Mapping Program

She said she got my information from FCC Form 477!  And is working with 
all ISPs in Arizona.

1.  Doesn't this mean that the FCC broke it's word about the 
non-disclosure part of 477, since Data Site Consortium is a privately 
owned company?

2.  Do I have to reply to their demands?

Worst of all, I got a message on my cell yesterday that said (and I quote):
We will escalate this up to the State Level and then to the Federal 
level if we don't hear from you.

The email addresses she provides aren't even branded:
azbroadb...@gmail.com
ddu...@cox.net

Is she legit?  Anyone?  Shouldn't they have to provide proof of who they 
are or a warrant or something before I have to provide info?

Jason



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[WISPA] T1 pci card

2009-11-18 Thread Jason Wallace
Anyone know where (if?) I can get a PCI card to connect to a T1 for less 
than the $400 or so I have found on my own?

I'd like to Integrate some of my equipment and eliminate a cisco 2610 
that's really doing nothing but converting my T1 to an ethernet port.

It's no worth $400 to do this however...

Jason



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Re: [WISPA] T1 pci card

2009-11-18 Thread Jason Wallace




The pc is Linux and acts as a nat and dns/dhcp server.
It connects to the 2610 with a crossover cable.
Ultimately, I want to put everything in an outdoor enclosure and hang
it on a pole

Is this terribly harder to do than set up a 2610?

Jason

RickG wrote:

  What are you running on the PC that you want to add the card to? I like
integration equipment as well but you're probably better of letting the
Cisco do its job and the PC do its job. -RickG

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Jason Wallace supp...@azii.net wrote:

  
  
Anyone know where (if?) I can get a PCI card to connect to a T1 for less
than the $400 or so I have found on my own?

I'd like to "Integrate" some of my equipment and eliminate a cisco 2610
that's really doing nothing but converting my T1 to an ethernet port.

It's no worth $400 to do this however...

Jason




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Re: [WISPA] powering finicky mikrotiks on 24v solar

2009-10-26 Thread Jason Wallace




These guys have dc to dc converters. IIRC, some are 90%+ efficient. I
have used their stuff in my solar deployment.

http://www.solarconverters.com

You can buy their stuff at several online solar stores.

Jason

Randy Cosby wrote:

  What do you use to convert?  The tycon power item Jayson pointed to is 
only 75% efficient, and only can handle up to 1 amp of load (a little 
too small for me).
http://www.tyconpower.com/products/POE_Inserters.htm

Any other solutions?

Randy


Dennis Burgess wrote:
  
  
Should hook directly to the batteries, and convert dc to dc at 20v.  

---
Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
WISPA Board Member - wispa.org
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik  WISP Support Services
WISPA Vendor Member
Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net
LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training
Author of "Learn RouterOS"


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Randy Cosby
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 9:24 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] powering finicky mikrotiks on 24v solar

Is anyone powering Mikrotiks on Solar?  What do you use to keep your 
solar "boost" voltage from forcing a shutdown on the Mikrotik?  I've 
used some 24 regulators, but they seem inefficient, and have low voltage

disconnects that are sometimes too sensitive - ie: if my battery goes 
down to 22v, it will shut down completely (yes I know the batteries 
should never go that low, but I don't live in a perfect world).


  

  
  
  






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Re: [WISPA] Throttle

2009-08-04 Thread Jason Wallace




What we've done to date is throttle at the CPE; we have always chosen
cpe's with this capability. It was super important because we started
in a very rural area with a satellite as our upstream...painful because
of FAP's and such. 

We've moved on.

The above method keeps the congestion lower over the wireless links,
but it isn't perfect.

Ideally, throttling is done at the data source only. If you throttle
downloads at the CPE, when the customer requests data, ethernet
dictates that the flow starts fast and then backs off as packets are
dropped, which is exactly what the cpe does to throttle the flow. This
wastes your network and upstream bandwidth.

So, throttle downloads at your NOC as soon as possible in your
network's flow. Throttle uploads at the CPE. This is what I am about
to do on my network. I have everything in place; just got to throw the
(linux based) switch.
The linux box has big queues and won't waste as much of my upstream
link this way.

Also, if you cache or have a local email server, as we do, that stuff
can go out to customers at a much higher rate. Their perceived speed's
better when the google logo loads instantly ;-)

My 2 cents,
Jason

RickG wrote:

  I do the same but wonder if there is a better way? Doesnt this load
unwanted traffic on the backhauls? -RickG

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Blair Davisthe...@wmwisp.net wrote:
  
  
I use MikroTik Queue's for my D/L limiting.

My border router is big enough to handle quite a few clients...



os10ru...@gmail.com wrote:

I understood that download limiting can only be properly done by
queuing and delaying the user's uplink requests/acks since managing
the actual download traffic would involve dropping packets or queuing
a large amount of data. This is according to the documentation of the
Linux based firewalls I've tried which do QoS and bandwidth limiting.

How are you accomplishing D/L limiting at the border router?

Greg
On Aug 4, 2009, at 4:57 AM, Blair Davis wrote:



For 802.11 systems, I prefer to split it.

I limit D/L, from internet to client, at the border router.

This allows the limiting to be done before the traffic enters my
wireless network, reducing congestion and load on my backhauls

I limit U/L, from client to internet, at the cpe.

This helps keep one cpe from monopolizing the 802.11 AP.

In general, I try to limit traffic where it enters my network.

YMMV

sa...@michianawireless.com wrote:


Question: Which is better? Throttle the cpe at the cpe or at the
router?

Currently we have a router setup at each tower site and do
bandwidth limiting on it with simple queues and the users ip. But
we want to setup our billing system so the office help can change
packages and we just have it login to the ip in billing and
automatically run a script to set the bandwidth throttle.

But is the a disadvantage to limiting at the cpe vs. the tower?

Thanks,
John Buwa
Michiana Wireless



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[WISPA] Canopy Distance

2009-07-30 Thread Jason Wallace
Speaking of 5.8 distance...

Does anyone know what the real world maximum distance the canopy 5200sm 
can do?  Assuming a quiet noise floor, best ap setup, etc.

Jason



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Re: [WISPA] Canopy Distance

2009-07-30 Thread Jason Wallace
Sorry, I thought I'd read in their literature that the 5200sm could 
operate at 5.8...

The 5200sm is what I am interested in.  Does anyone know what the 
maximum useful distance is with the dish mounted 5200sm like:

http://www.ojbox.com/ebay/new/5200sm-dish/5200sm-dish.htm

Jason

Charles Wu wrote:
 Hi,

 A 5200 SM operates in 5.2, not 5.8

 The difference between 5.2 and 5.8 is FCC rules

 -Charles

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
 Behalf Of Jason Wallace
 Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:01 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Canopy Distance

 Speaking of 5.8 distance...

 Does anyone know what the real world maximum distance the canopy 5200sm 
 can do?  Assuming a quiet noise floor, best ap setup, etc.

 Jason


 
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Re: [WISPA] Canopy Distance

2009-07-30 Thread Jason Wallace




Any chance it could do 30 to 40 miles from ap to cpe with that setup?

Jason

Gino Villarini wrote:

  Charles


Actually now it's FCC certified with the low power setting

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Jul 30, 2009, at 7:12 PM, "Charles Wu" c...@cticonnect.com wrote:

  
  
It's generally illegal to use a dish on a 5.2 SM



  From a *theoretical* perspective, 5.2 will propagate just as good  
as 5.8
  

-Charles

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
On Behalf Of Jason Wallace
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:48 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Canopy Distance

Sorry, I thought I'd read in their literature that the 5200sm could
operate at 5.8...

The 5200sm is what I am interested in.  Does anyone know what the
maximum useful distance is with the dish mounted 5200sm like:

http://www.ojbox.com/ebay/new/5200sm-dish/5200sm-dish.htm

Jason

Charles Wu wrote:


  Hi,

A 5200 SM operates in 5.2, not 5.8

The difference between 5.2 and 5.8 is FCC rules

-Charles

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jason Wallace
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:01 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Canopy Distance

Speaking of 5.8 distance...

Does anyone know what the real world maximum distance the canopy  
5200sm
can do?  Assuming a quiet noise floor, best ap setup, etc.

Jason


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[WISPA] 802.11 CPE's

2009-07-18 Thread Jason Wallace
Everyone,

Any recommendations on an FCC CERTIFIED 802.11 cpe that has a higher 
gain than Deliberant''s 15dbi?  I really liked Deliberant's 19 dbi's but 
they are gone...

Jason
Integrity Internet



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Re: [WISPA] Sector separation/isolation

2009-05-03 Thread Jason Wallace




You could try ferrite beads on all the cables involved at each ap.
Especially on each end of the coax, right next to the connectors. 

Coax is made for "unbalanced" transmission; some antennas are
"balanced". Connecting unbalanced cables to balanced antennas will
cause the outer jacket of the coax to radiate. Ask any HAM.

Jason Wallace


Michael Baird wrote:

  Cable length to AP 1 foot, I'm not sure what type of cable is installed, 
presumably LMR-400. I will check on this as well.

The Water tower we are using for testing is located on the outskirts of 
the town. The town itself has about 4 businesses, no stoplights, looks 
like about 10 AP's in the whole town, population about 800 folks. The 
land is as flat as a pancake, no hills or great obstructions, minimal 
treelines.

Regards
Michael Baird
  
  
Whats the lenghs of the cables? They could be acting as antennas themselves.

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com
 
 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 8:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sector separation/isolation

What kind of cable are you using between the APs and the antennas?

On May 3, 2009, at 8:27 AM, Michael Baird wrote:

  


  Yes, I tried the 10mhz/5mhz channel widths, per recommendation, the  
AP's
still saw each other at similar signal strengths (w/antenna). I will  
see
if I can check the rest of the stuff, there is no vertical separation
either as another recommended, the antennas themselves are at least 20
foot apart. They are on 3 sides of a water tower, with the water tower
in between. I didn't install the equipment and haven't been up on the
tower, so I can't say firsthand how it has been installed. Can you  
give
me a rundown of how it should be installed, so I can know what to look
for. Defective antenna is an idea though, they are Tranzeo 120's, the
sectorization barely works at distance. I can see all 3 AP's at each
sector 7 miles away, can peer with two of them, associate with all  
3, I
think this is wrong. I think I should only see one, unless I'm at the
overlap point.

Regards
Michael Baird

  
  
The problem of the APs seeing each other could be due to unusually
high signal leakage (defective antenna, coax, enclosure etc resulting
in poor shielding/signal leakage). If that's the case the equipment
should be performing better than it is (less mutual interference) and
for some reason it's not. You'd have to investigate and/or swap out
gear to find the problem.

Or is it that the equipment and install are all good and this is
normal due to the proximity? If it's proximity then physical
separation and/or frequency separation is the only thing that will
help, hence the suggestion of using narrower channels and moving the
antennas from previous posts.

Did you try going to 10 MHz channels?

Can you disconnect the antenna and put dummy loads on the ends of the
coax and see how strong the APs can see each other? If the problem
goes away then it's either a) defective antennas with too much  
leakage
or side/rear lobes) or b) antenna proximity.

Greg

On May 3, 2009, at 7:13 AM, Michael Baird wrote:


  


  I think I didn't explain my problem clearly. 10mhz/5mhz channel sep
makes no difference on how each AP see's each other on a site survey
on
the tower.  I want to isolate the sectors from each other in a  
better
way, they are too hot to each other and too much overlap. I was
looking
for  good ways to do it, I have no noise problems to clients, and my
channels on the 3 AP's are 1/6/11, none overlapping, and all with  
-100
noise floor's.

Regards
Michael Baird


  
  
Right now channel 1 uses channel 1, 2 and 3.  Channel 6 uses 4-8.
When
you go to 10MHz channels 1 will use 1 and  2.  6 will use 5, 6  
and 7.
Therefore, you are no longer on adjacent channels, there is a gap  
of
channels 3 and 4 between.
Also, you will cut down on the amount of other noise you hear  
because
you listen to only half as much spectrum.
And, you will have more effective power so noise may be less of a
problem.

I am sure there are some RF savvy folks out there that can  
explain it
better.

Michael Baird wrote:


  


  I can try that, can you tell me why that would make a difference
though
with the AP's seeing each other at such signal levels? Will
changing to
10mhz channel width's cause the AP's to see each other at a lower
RSSI?

Regards
Michael Baird




  
  
Use 10mhz channels instead of 20mhz.

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf O

Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test

2009-04-29 Thread Jason Wallace




Also, some dummy loads can act as a poor antenna. Was this part of the
experiment consistent both times? Maybe run some coax from the boxes
separate directions and then attach the dummy loads?

Scott Carullo wrote:

  Another quick note...  if you have individual units why even mount them 
like this inside a larger box?  Why not put individual RB411s in their own 
small box (say DCE 7x6x2) and put the box outside right under the antenna?  
Then you would have even more seperation and distribute you eggs a bit more 
too...

Scott Carullo
Brevard Wireless
321-205-1100 x102

 Original Message 
  
  
From: "Kurt Fankhauser" k...@wavelinc.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:36 AM
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test

About a week ago there was some discussion about 5ghz radio's being
installed in the same board and causing self-interference on adjacent
channels and possible even on the entire band thus decreasing throughput 

  
  on
  
  
backhauls. Because even if you were operating on frequency's 5745 and 

  
  5825
  
  
the two radio's would have side lobe harmonics that if installed in the 

  
  same
  
  
enclosure they would still "hear" each other at that short of separation. 

  
  I
  
  
decided to combat this problem and find a solution and share my 

  
  experience
  
  
with the list. 

 

I installed a single XR5 card into 3 different RB433's with indoor
enclosures. I also installed foil tape which I obtained from the local 

  
  True
  
  
Value store for $2.49 on all the vent holes and unused bulkhead 

  
  connector
  
  
holes. This was done in order to prevent RF side lobe leaks from the 

  
  three
  
  
radio's that would escape from the indoor enclosures themselves. Having 

  
  only
  
  
1 card inside each enclosures I should not have a heat problem as the
outdoor box will not be in direct sunlight. 

 

I then stacked all 3 enclosures on top of each other with dummy loads on
each of the N-bulkhead connectors and did some testing. This is what I
found:

 

I set the bottom board as AP and the middle board as Client on frequency
5825. Even with this close of separation the two XR5's could only see 

  
  each
  
  
other at -83 on the same channel. With the top board connecting to the
bottom board they could only see each other at -90. Keep in mind this is 

  
  on
  
  
the same frequency so adjacent channels should be much less than that
possibly even in the -100 ranges. Wish I had a spectrum analyzer. With 

  
  two
  
  
boards separating the AP and Client there was no link at all. The two 

  
  boards
  
  
could not even see each other in an AP scan.

 

Just as a comparison with the same radio's installed all on a RB600 not 

  
  on
  
  
top of each other but in the adjacent mpci slots the radio's were all 

  
  seeing
  
  
each other at -30's. So I gained roughly -55 db of separation by doing 

  
  it
  
  
this way. So all I would have to do now is make sure that the antennas 

  
  on
  
  
the tower have at least 10 foot of vertical separation and the
self-interference problem should be gone and I should be enjoying much 

  
  more
  
  
throughput!

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

 

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com

 

 

 





  
  

  
  
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Re: [WISPA] Signal Strengths

2009-04-25 Thread Jason Wallace




No big walls within sight. I though the same thing, and even moved my
work truck in case I was catching a reflection from it. Didn't help
though. 

I'm concerned that if I move it, whatever is causing the "highs" 
"lows" in signal strength will move too - eventually putting the cpe in
a "low" again...

Adam Greene wrote:

  You could be dealing with reflection, where the signal bounces off a nearby 
object(s) and cancels itself out at certain locations -- any big walls in 
the vicinity?


- Original Message - 
From: "Jason Wallace" supp...@azii.net
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Signal Strengths


  
  
Everyone,

   I had trouble during an install today regarding signal strengths.
2.4Ghz CPE in a location that should be no problem.  Moving the CPE two
feet in any direction from the point where the CPE was installed
increased the signal by around 20db (-90 to -70!)

Any idea of what phenomenon I am dealing with?

Anything I should consider as I correct this install?

Jason



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Re: [WISPA] SOLVED - Signal Strengths

2009-04-25 Thread Jason Wallace




Well,

 There was only a desert floor of dirt between me and the AP about 4
miles away. Not even any houses to speak of. There were no metal
roofs directly in the way. There WAS a very large steel building
perpendicular to me about 40 feet away. Also, within 2 miles, there's
grain silos scattered around that could cause a reflection. It was
either this or it was right at the edge of Fresnel effects.

SOLUTION?

I changed to a CPE with a higher gain (Deliberating 15dbi). I think
the tighter antenna pattern acted like "blinders" to the out of phase
signals. 
I did not have to move the installation point. 70's db. All is well.

Thanks everyone, for your encouraging input.

Jason

PS. I'm keeping an eye on it...

Josh Luthman wrote:

  This happens a lot with metal roofs in the way.  10 feet over, around
the mentioned building we go from -90 to -65

On 4/25/09, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote:
  
  
You're seeing normal RF behavior. Simply mount the antenna where the
signal is the strongest then use your network monitoring system to keep
an "eye" on it.

Jason Wallace wrote:


  Everyone,

I had trouble during an install today regarding signal strengths.
2.4Ghz CPE in a location that should be no problem.  Moving the CPE two
feet in any direction from the point where the CPE was installed
increased the signal by around 20db (-90 to -70!)

Any idea of what phenomenon I am dealing with?

Anything I should consider as I correct this install?

Jason



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Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
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[WISPA] Signal Strengths

2009-04-24 Thread Jason Wallace
Everyone,

I had trouble during an install today regarding signal strengths.  
2.4Ghz CPE in a location that should be no problem.  Moving the CPE two 
feet in any direction from the point where the CPE was installed 
increased the signal by around 20db (-90 to -70!) 

Any idea of what phenomenon I am dealing with? 

Anything I should consider as I correct this install?

Jason



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Re: [WISPA] Metered Broadband

2008-04-30 Thread Jason Wallace

Question:
If you are privately owned and have received no federal (or otherwise) 
money for your network AND it is spelled out in your contract, could the 
FCC actually tell you you have to run wide open / allow any app?  If so, 
where would the line get drawn (Universities, Libraries, etc...)?  My 
contract prohibits running servers or peer to peer applications on 
the connection.

Jason

Scottie Arnett wrote:
 I am not sure what the costs should or will be? But...I will say that is 
 where I think broadband will be headed, for sure, if the FCC keeps going the 
 way they are headed(since the Comcast deal) with the completely open 
 concept, such as no bandwidth shaping of any sort.

 Even the BIG players such as the major cable companies and the major telcos 
 cannot operate their networks very long with the new bandwidth intensive apps 
 coming along(unless its on their own network) with no bandwidth shaping.

 IMHO, I think this is how it should be, a cost per data transfer or a limit 
 and then overage charges, just as electric, long distance, water usage, 
 etc... have been for a long time.

 My 2 pence worth.

 Scott

 -- Original Message --
 From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:23:58 -0500

   
 So what types of rates would be appropriate for a metered broadband service? 
  It obviously depends on what your costs are.  I'll just throw something out 
 to start a conversation, not necessarily reflective of any costs.

 $2/gig transferred, no other costs or limits.

 $10 base, $1.50/gig transferred, no other limits.


 --
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 
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[WISPA] LMR600 Vendor?

2007-11-12 Thread Jason Wallace

Gang,

   I am looking for some 15' LMR600 cables, N-type males both ends, one 
end 90°.  Anyone know where to find them?


Jason Wallace




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Re: [WISPA] Advanced Bandwidth Management

2007-01-24 Thread Jason Wallace

That is exactly the issue I have.  The system I need this for is an
extremely rural retirement community, satellite-connected WISP
with 1meg down 128k up and 266megs total per day limit (8gig
spread over 30 days).  Just one all night P2P session will cause
the upstream provider to cut the connection to 56k up/down for
weeks until the total usage drops to 6gig in the previous 30 days.
Then nobody's happy.  Meanwhile, babyboomers are retiring
and moving from the city where they got 4 to 6 meg Roadrunner
and Cox connections and expect the same service at the same
pricepoint.  T1's run up to 2200$/month. Needless to say, I am
also looking for other bandwidth sources...  Even with a GOOD
Internet pipe, I'll need software to make sure everyone plays fair,
especially at the dawn of IPTV.
Jason




On Wed, 24 Jan 2007, Matt Liotta wrote:


Have you thought about selling the customer a pipe that works for
any and all traffic at the speed the customer signed up for as
opposed to deciding for the customer?


When your head dips below the cloud cover, you will realize that not
everyone has this luxury.  Many on this list are selling residential
service at lowball rates.  Also, most of them are paying premium
prices for bandwidth.  You can't build a business model around
unlimited access for $30/month and pay for an $800+ T1, if you allow
every even 128k without restrictions.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
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Re: [WISPA] DC Inverter help

2006-07-10 Thread Jason Wallace

Joe,

   1.  Right, every time you convert from one type of power to another 
you're only going to get 80 to 90% typ.  Some devices claim up to 98% 
eff, but that's only over a very specific operating range.  Most 
inverters are terribly inefficient for small loads.  Some use 20 or 50 
watts just idling!  So coming right off the batteries will give you the 
longest runtime in general.


   2.  A good charger stops when it's supposed to.  A cheap-o charger 
from wal-mart could cook the batteries.  You need a good charger that 
has several charging stages to take good care of the batteries.  The 
solar electric people like Outback and Xantrax make excellent ones, but 
they're expensive.  There are inexpensive units that do a good job too.  
Just make sure that they back off the output when the batteries are 
charged.  Look for something called a float charge.  Sometimes 
chargers that have a trickle charge as the last charging stage will 
cook a battery over time.


   There are dc-to-dc converters (check mouser.com and digi-key.com) 
that can take a wide range of input voltages and deliver a consistent 
output voltage.  These allow you to really discharge a battery and keep 
your equipment running at a constant voltage.  For instance, a dc-dc 
converter could take 12 volts from a battery and deliver 48 v.  Even as 
the battery discharges to 9v or less, you could get 48 v.  This however 
is REALLY hard on the batteries, which are considered to be completely 
discharged in the 10V range. 

   How it will behave will depend on the charger and the load.  Most 
good chargers have 3 or 4 charging stages and choose the correct 
stage depending on how deeply discharged the batteries are.  It goes 
something like equalize-bulk charge-maintenance charge.  I have a 
feeling that with a small load like an AP, the charger would oscillate 
from charge to maintenance charge over time as the batteries are 
slightly discharged, then recharged, slightly discharged, recharged...  
Or the maintenance charge might be enough that the batteries see no 
discharging at all.  It'll depend on the charger. 



Here's one of my favorite links about batteries: 


http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq.htm

I've been studying up on it for quite a while now because I'm building 
an off-the-grid home.


Jason

Joe Laura wrote:

As I understand it in order to be efficient you need to run right off the
batterys. Right? Would the battery charger stop charging precisly when
needed?
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] DC Inverter help


  

Gang,

I'm not a UPS expert, but if the batteries were deeply discharged,
wouldn't the extra load of the external batteries would make it hard on
the ups when it tries to bring them back up?

Maybe I misunderstood the question; but, if I needed 48VDC
uninterrupted, I'd string 4 deep cycle batteries together and connect a
good multi-stage battery charger.  Then I'd run my 48 V devices right
from the batteries.  If you don't need 120AC, then there's no need for a
UPS.  If the UPS is already there and uses a 48V stack, then I'd tap
into that...

Jason

Gino A. Villarini wrote:


yes

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Nash
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:14 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] DC Inverter help

Gino, are you saying

a) that you've got external, non-APC batteries plugged into your UPS and
b) that your UPS/SNMP card recognizes the charge level?

Mark Nash
Network Engineer
UnwiredOnline.Net
350 Holly Street
Junction City, OR 97448
http://www.uwol.net
541-998-
541-998-5599 fax
- Original Message -
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] DC Inverter help



  

We do it

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Nash
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 11:14 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] DC Inverter help

I'm curious if anyone has a) connected external batteries to an APC


UPS...
  

AND ... used the APC SNMP card to monitor the status of battery
consumption.

I currently use APC SU700NET UPSs in external 6-deep boxes to


condition
  

power and provide battery backup.  The SNMP card (AP9617) will e-mail


our
  

support if the site goes on battery power, giving us about 2.5 hours to
get
up the hill with a generator.  When the batteries go below a threshold


of
  

charge left, it e-mails to let us know it's in a 

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Jason Wallace

John Scrivner:
 Sadly the best Wifi solutions available do not have 100% FCC 
compliance. There are some that do though. Tranzeo is a good example. 
Look at Tranzeo for your Wifi based gear needs. 



Tranzeo is 100% FCC legal?  I've been looking for the certs...

Jason
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[WISPA] Custom LMR-400 Cables?

2006-03-15 Thread Jason Wallace
Anyone know where I can get custom lmr-400 cables made that have right 
angle n-type male connectors?


Jason
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[WISPA] Teletronics Sectors

2006-03-06 Thread Jason Wallace
Anyone using the 19 dbi Hz Pol 120 deg sector from Teletronics, p/n 
15-124, in a 3 antenna array?  Anyone know what the front to back ratio 
is on one of these?  How about weatherability?


Jason Wallace
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[WISPA] Ethernet Opto Isolator

2006-02-20 Thread Jason Wallace

Friends,

   Does anyone know of a good isolator for cat5?  I want to really 
protect my network from a tower mounted radio.


Jason
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Re: [WISPA] HPOL 2.45 Sector

2006-02-07 Thread Jason Wallace

Ron,

Teletronics has lots of nice stuff including 17, 19 and even 22 dbi HZ 
pol sectors.


http://www.teletronics.com/antenna2-419dBSector.html

Jason


Ron Wallace wrote:
 
All
 
Does anyone know of a HPOL 2.45 GHz 120* Sector other than 
PacWireless.  I have the PacWireless and the F-B is killing me.  More 
interference from my own APs than my competitors.  I have been looking 
and other than Superpass, F-B ratio is not too good there either, 
really need to get this changed.
 
Any asistance or advice is greatly appreciated.
 
Ron Wallace

Hahnron, Inc.
220 S. Jackson Dt.
Addison, MI 49220

Phone: (517)547-8410
Mobile: (517)605-4542
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 


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Re: [WISPA] Legal Radio and Antenna Combos - Are there any in existance?

2006-01-30 Thread Jason Wallace

Marlon,

   What would you suggest?  I am afraid of proprietary stuff because I 
don't know enough industry history to understand the players. 


Jason

Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Hiya Jason,

Why not just buy ISP grade product?  Then you don't have to worry 
about all of this.


AND at 2.4 the CLIENT side isn't limited to 36 dB.  It starts there 
with a 30 dB radio with a 6 dB antenna.  For every one db of radio tx 
dB you drop you can go up 3 dB of antenna gain.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:26 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Legal Radio and Antenna Combos - Are there any in 
existance?




Everyone,

   I am at my wits end.  I have searched high and low for a mini-pci 
radio  sector antenna combo for an 802.11b AP that are legal under 
the current FCC rules, which by my interpretation are:


1. Total output is 36 dbm or less.

2.  Antenna characteristics must be the same as an antenna that has 
been approved for use with that radio, where TYPE refers to antennas 
with SIMILAR in and out of band radiation patterns.


3.  Antenna gain must be equal to or less than the maximum the radio 
has been approved to work with.


I can NOT find a radio that is approved for any antenna with real 
gain.  I don't want to mind just the SPIRIT of the law, but the law 
itself.
What combos are you other guys who like building your own system.  I 
want to put together a Mikrotik with 3 radios and sectors for an AP.  
The sectors I am looking at are:


AntennaGainWidthPol
WRW2400-VF/A/H13dbi120H 
http://www.winncom.com/moreinfo/item/WRW2400-VF/A/H/index.html


DT-AN-24-120H-13513.5120H
https://www.demarctech.com/products/reliawave-antennas/2_4Ghz/DT-AN-24-120H-135.html 



DT-AN-24-60120V-152115120V
https://www.demarctech.com/products/reliawave-antennas/2_4Ghz/DT-AN-24-AS-60120V-2115.html 



HyperGain® HG2417P-12017dbi120V
http://www.hyperlinktech.com/index.php

Teletronics19120H
http://www.teletronics.com/antenna2-419dBSector.html

Teletronics22140H
http://www.teletronics.com/antenna2-422dBidirectional.html

I am sorry if this table doesn't wrap well on some email clients.
I am still looking for a 18 dbi HZ pol antenna with FCC certs because 
I think it can be used with a  DT-RWZ-200mW-WC, although it is pcmcia 
and I'll have to figure out how to use it with a 500 series RB (Note, 
there are foreign antennas that have 18 dbi, but don't come with FCC 
certs; see my last post).  As far as I can tell, the CM9's can't be 
used anywhere.
Ideally, I would like to use the 22 dbi Teletronics in my application 
with a 14dbm radio for the greatest receive gain.  Or at least a HZ 
polarized antenna with decent gain.


Anyway, can someone please help.  I appreciate those of you who have 
helped me to even reach this point.


Jason Wallace
WISP startup


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[WISPA] Foreign Antennas

2006-01-27 Thread Jason Wallace

Gang,

   I have found several 802.11b antennas produced outside the US that 
I'd like to use.  They are not FCC certified, however.  Do the antennas 
need to be fcc certified or just the radios?  This is assuming that all 
the gain/ERP rules are met.


Jason Wallace
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Re: [WISPA] Outdoor Ethernet Splice

2006-01-24 Thread Jason Wallace
Uncured silicone contains acetic acid (cheap formulations may contain 
some after curing) and might corrode reactive metals.  I THINK that the 
silicones that have a low odor also have lower acetic acid content.  
BTW, acetic acid is what gives vinegar its punch.


Jason Wallace

Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

I've found that silicon has something in it that corrodes connections. 
especially those in rf connectors.  I think it's amonia or something 
like it.  Anyway, I only use silicon to seal the building penetration 
these days.

marlon

- Original Message - From: Todd Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:47 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Outdoor Ethernet Splice


You can also fill the end around the o-rings with silicon to 
eliminate any

place for water to pool if they happen to be mounted vertically.

Todd Barber
Skylink Broadband Internet
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
970-454-9499

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outdoor Ethernet Splice

I always put in 3 or 4 feet of extra cat 5 at the radio end :-P.

That's the same connector as sb uses.  They are nice but make sure 
they sit

horrizontal as water will eventually leak past the o-rings etc.

marlon

- Original Message - From: J. Vogel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outdoor Ethernet Splice



I haven't used these, but someone on one of these lists pointed them
out a while back.

http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=565-0107

I am going to order some in one of these days. They look good to me.

John Vogel


Mark Nash wrote:

Anyone have recommendations on products you use for outdoor, 
weatherproof

ethernet splices?

Mark Nash
Network Engineer
UnwiredOnline.Net
350 Holly Street
Junction City, OR 97448
http://www.uwol.net
541-998-
541-998-5599 fax







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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Jason Wallace

List,

When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  Dual 
pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite 
dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent 
channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading the 
receiver when transmitting with this setup.

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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Jason Wallace

Bob,

Item 4 is what I am talking about.  If your radios have very good 
adjacent channel rejection, are not transmitting at high levels, and the 
antenna has minimized any of the coupling I mentioned, then they may be 
able to listen through the noise from the other transmitter. 

A lot of this depends on output power; it is possible to just totally 
swamp one receiver with another transmitter and create a noise floor too 
high to listen through.  In my last post I was thinking like a HAM 
operator (theory-wise) that deals with much greater power levels.  With 
802.11 power levels, it may work better.  It has to be designed right, 
like you said.  No one should think that you can just hang a dual pol 
and do anything with it.


Jason Wallace
Bob Moldashel wrote:


Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast.

1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not 
TX only or RX only in configuration.


2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal 
polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency.


3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity 
antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power 
levels and Receiver sensitivity..


4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one 
radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is 
receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of 
seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount 
causing receive interference.


5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as 
Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band.  Granted, they have much 
better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly..


6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios.  One 
of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz.  The 
other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the 
other.  One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles.  There is no 
desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues.


7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding 
antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have 
negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower.


Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other 
equipment.  The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly.


-B-



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