Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Brad, it would be an interesting discussion, to break down what the various costs are of networks at various scales of deployment. Even more interesting, would be what kind of business model can be created which shows profitability servicing residential customers at price-competitive rates using ANY current offerings from Alvarion. I know, I know... This conversation always dies with someone stating you have to get more revenue per customer than just access costs - something nobody disagrees with, but if your business models REQUIRES you to sell VOIP and something else on top of access, then you're not a mainstream ISP again. Instead, the conversation jumps to other topics of how to get your average revenue up. While 'reliability' and features have a worth that can be assigned (not sure it can be accurately calcualted), if someone offered a system that had 100Mbit FDX speeds to the c ustomer, gauranteed 100% reliability, and with all the bells and whistles, but cost $1000 per customer... Could the average mainstream WISP make a go of it? And before we get all confused, I consider mainstream to mean the following: 1. provides multiple levels of service - from affordble residential, to higher end commercial access 2. is price-competitive with current levels of service and cost commonly available. 3. Has appropriate service levels for the vast majority of customers within the defined geographical area serviced. I dont' consider myself mainstream in the sense that I am not truly price competitive and I do not offer the highest end connectivity. Instead, I am a niche market ISP, because I have a relatively narrow focus of providing connectivity to people / areas not otherwise served by broadband. Which brings me back to the how to be a mainstream WISP again. The telephone company didn't choose a system with $500 CPE. They have a $50 CPE.Same with Cable. We can all understand the infrastructure buildout and the considerable cost in building it, but even they grasp the cost of growth limitation factor.THEY are prepared to wage war at the residential level, and are doing so. We need the tools to get into that war as well, WITHOUT a billionaire backing us. There's more strategies than just the $50 CPE (I don't expect to see it), to be sure. What I see needed is options for all of them. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:29 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Not to belittle your opinion but many of my customers would say just the opposite in that they're actually saving money by deploying Alvarion. The cost of owning a network isn't based on cpe costs alone. Brad -Original Message- From: Mark Koskenmaki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:06 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but specialized application., It's just too expensive. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP, arguably OT
not saying this is necessarily good or bad, it just is). - As well, there are still many out there that when they started we were the only purpose-built UL BWA product on the market (around 1999-2001) and they are still with us, still growing (Midcoast in Maine, you guys out there? -- That's a pioneer folks. Marlon, remember Jason Simonds? He was THE authority when we came onto the scene.). Sometimes some of these might have moved away from us at points, trying cheaper brands, but most come back missing the total value we offered. BUT...BUT...do I claim we are the best for all WISPs for all circumstances? No, not by a long shot. Do I think though that a 1,000 CPE Alvarion WISP is more valuable from an equity sense than a like WISP of any other UL brand? I do. A Navini or Aperto UL WISP might make the claim (both vendors make excellent gear, if more narrow in scope), but it is harder for them to do so since there are so few such WISPs of any scale, and the largest WISP for both also have Alvarion in their networks. Anyway, please excuse the long winded, ra-ra post. - Patrick -Original Message- From: Mark Koskenmaki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 8:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Brad, it would be an interesting discussion, to break down what the various costs are of networks at various scales of deployment. Even more interesting, would be what kind of business model can be created which shows profitability servicing residential customers at price-competitive rates using ANY current offerings from Alvarion. I know, I know... This conversation always dies with someone stating you have to get more revenue per customer than just access costs - something nobody disagrees with, but if your business models REQUIRES you to sell VOIP and something else on top of access, then you're not a mainstream ISP again. Instead, the conversation jumps to other topics of how to get your average revenue up. While 'reliability' and features have a worth that can be assigned (not sure it can be accurately calcualted), if someone offered a system that had 100Mbit FDX speeds to the c ustomer, gauranteed 100% reliability, and with all the bells and whistles, but cost $1000 per customer... Could the average mainstream WISP make a go of it? And before we get all confused, I consider mainstream to mean the following: 1. provides multiple levels of service - from affordble residential, to higher end commercial access 2. is price-competitive with current levels of service and cost commonly available. 3. Has appropriate service levels for the vast majority of customers within the defined geographical area serviced. I dont' consider myself mainstream in the sense that I am not truly price competitive and I do not offer the highest end connectivity. Instead, I am a niche market ISP, because I have a relatively narrow focus of providing connectivity to people / areas not otherwise served by broadband. Which brings me back to the how to be a mainstream WISP again. The telephone company didn't choose a system with $500 CPE. They have a $50 CPE.Same with Cable. We can all understand the infrastructure buildout and the considerable cost in building it, but even they grasp the cost of growth limitation factor.THEY are prepared to wage war at the residential level, and are doing so. We need the tools to get into that war as well, WITHOUT a billionaire backing us. There's more strategies than just the $50 CPE (I don't expect to see it), to be sure. What I see needed is options for all of them. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:29 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Not to belittle your opinion but many of my customers would say just the opposite in that they're actually saving money by deploying Alvarion. The cost of owning a network isn't based on cpe costs alone. Brad -Original Message- From: Mark Koskenmaki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:06 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but specialized application., It's just too expensive. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - - Original Message - From: Brad
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP, arguably OT
(Soon to change over to Buffalo) The boss wants to know why I am using something that cost $195 each for a CPE. Cause it works. All of the time. Service calls are expensive. Your solution is also (hopefully) an FCC certified solution. As one grows and/or sells that becomes much more important. Not knowing what the Industry is using I can't explain why I had rather not go cheaper and that there are folks spending much more. You may be able to go cheaper. I just paid $250 for a *g* ap that's cranking! (compex, www.cpx.com) Things are getting cheaper all of the time. One of the great things about using standards based gear is that we're never locked into one solution. A guy just has to be ware of that thing called a habit. I use what I use cause I'm used to it, not because it's the best solution today :-). That's why I always TRY other solutions. A couple of times per year on average I buy something I don't really think I want to use. Often though, I end up using them cause they are better and/or cheaper than what I had been using. Gads, I remember when I thought I was doing great Rolling my own for less than $500. roflol I hear that! Now they think they can get quality for $50. Not yet. It's going to get there but not yet. Honestly, the most important thing for you guys to be doing right now is supporting our efforts at WISPA. We're working hard on getting access to empty TV spectrum AND USF funding!! Out here Century Tel gets over $100 per phone line in subsidies. If I could get that on my 300 wireless subs... Besides I have looked at the hardware / firmware version compatibility list and keeping it straight would drive me nutser than I am. Why bother? If it's wifi buy a unit or two and try it out. If they work use them, if not toss 'em. If it's not wifi you just have to buy it all from the same source. I really have mixed feelings about open source in this setting but maybe I am wrong. See the above list of priorities. I don't see any problems with it in MDU setups but I am really set in my ways. We all get that way when we're old and crotchety! ducking Are my gut feeling all wrong here? I really value your opinion, We've been over this ol' friend! You and I are on different sides of the isle. I want everything simple and manufacturer built. The kind of stuff my wife could fix with a phone call or two to tech support. I'm willing to give up control and/or efficiency for it. I can live without the control (it's hard for a technogeek but I do have other things to worry about and I REALLY need the network to remain simple). On the efficiency side, it's just too cheap to put in more capacity to worry about system usage type stuff. If something's overloaded I'll just put in a new system, move a few over to that one and put all the new customers on it too. * This is what I love about a good mailing list. It attracts good people with good ideas. It's a trade show seminar every day! Sure wish I had more time to spend here. Installs are picking up again and I'll soon be back to a couple of hours per day of emails and little or none of it on anyone's list. I have emails yet unread going back to 2004! sigh chowness, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:42 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP, arguably OT As we all know, this can take the form of an almost religious debate, which I'm going to try to avoid (and I'll ask Brad or others from Alvarion to avoid the same). We here have a strong tendency toward passion as it relates to this market, and to be sure, we feel a strong sense of pride in the role our company has played in building this market. We also way too often take it personally when our brand gets attacked or we get accused of being anti-WISP when we know how much we have personally, from a heart and soul perspective, invested in this market. Mark, know that I am DEFINITELY NOT saying you are doing either of those things, your questions are fair and should always be asked and each WISP has to find the mix of answers that works best for him or her. That said, our success as a company in the early WISP days has directly led to the many and broad range of choices WISPs have today across many brands. That's all good, even for us, since it denotes the existence of a robust, worthwhile market. What we can say with absolute certainty is that there are many WISPs that have successfully scaled using our products, most having migrated from other brands. Whether your
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
On 4/19/06, Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The telephone company didn't choose a system with $500 CPE. They have a$50 CPE.Same with Cable. We can all understand the infrastructurebuildout and the considerable cost in building it, but even they grasp the cost of growth limitation factor.THEY are prepared to wage war at theresidential level, and are doing so. We need the tools to get into thatwar as well, WITHOUT a billionaire backing us. There's more strategies than just the $50 CPE (I don't expect to see it), tobe sure. What I see needed is options for all of them.I'll bet they were closer to $500 than $50 before they started ordering in kilopacks. Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
They started ordering with initial orders in the 10's of thousands... or maybe more. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot netsales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot netFast Internet, NO WIRES!- - Original Message - From: Dylan Oliver To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP On 4/19/06, Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The telephone company didn't choose a system with $500 CPE. They have a$50 CPE.Same with Cable. We can all understand the infrastructurebuildout and the considerable cost in building it, but even they grasp the "cost of growth" limitation factor.THEY are prepared to wage war at theresidential level, and are doing so. We need the tools to get into thatwar as well, WITHOUT a billionaire backing us.There's more strategies than just the $50 CPE (I don't expect to see it), tobe sure. What I see needed is options for all of them.I'll bet they were closer to $500 than $50 before they started ordering in kilopacks. Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Mark, Not to belittle your opinion but many of my customers would say just the opposite in that they're actually saving money by deploying Alvarion. The cost of owning a network isn't based on cpe costs alone. Brad -Original Message- From: Mark Koskenmaki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:06 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but specialized application., It's just too expensive. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical WISP operator and Alvarion. Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist. They have certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't make mainstream WISP last mile equipment. I have been expecting to see them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything. The ball's in thier court. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Oh, you're only talking about using thier backhauls? I'm not trying to argue this, just understand... As I had followed the conversation up to this point, I was under the impression we were discussing the last mile connectivity, rather than your backhauls / infrastructure. As you say, they do make some viable products for that... North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mainstream WISPs need good backhaul to interconnect tower locations. Whatever a WISP uses I am guessing it does not cost much different than what I am choosing to use in the application I am using. I feel I made a good decision. You do not I made a good choice. I think others could benefit from choosing the path I chose. You do not. Let's leave it at that. Scriv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Mainstream = affordable residential. The vast majority of available customers for WISP's are residential, and if you can make a business case for using any current alvarion product to provide residential broadband at reasonable prices, I'd love to see it. Niche WISP's are ones that are only high end customers, or business only, etc. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! --- - - - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can. If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option. With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot. Scriv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but specialized application., It's just too expensive. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- - - - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such negativity. I am hoping to see this division
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
What is the max throughput in a PTMP setup? Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can. If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option. With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot. Scriv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but specialized application., It's just too expensive. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical WISP operator and Alvarion. Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist. They have certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't make mainstream WISP last mile equipment. I have been expecting to see them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything. The ball's in thier court. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.2/314 - Release Date: 04/16/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.2/314 - Release Date: 04/16/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
I have heard that the current Alvarion VL firmware handles roughly 27 Mbps aggregate throughput. The latest Alvarion VL firmware will be out next month. Tests are showing 36 Mbps per sector max aggregate throughput (upstream + downstream). The real advantage for me will be the 30,000 packets per second capability. Estimates are now at roughly 300 simultaneous phone calls per sector. I want to be able to offer phone service in the near future. The higher packet count allows for each sector to handle more simultaneous customer sessions even if they involve much smaller packets. I have seen sectors brought down to very low capacity due to floods of little packets. I am guessing most consumer gear maxes out in the 5000 packet per second range. Does anyone have any real numbers on this? Scriv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the max throughput in a PTMP setup? Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can. If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option. With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot. Scriv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but specialized application., It's just too expensive. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical WISP operator and Alvarion. Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist. They have certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't make mainstream WISP last mile equipment. I have been expecting to see them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything. The ball's in thier court. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
And to add version 4.0 changes the rules again. Stay tuned. Brad Hi Brad, That statement has piqued my curiosity Care to elaborate? (on or offlist) -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Larson Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 8:12 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP -Original Message- From: Jeffrey Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 2:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP agreed, VL is far from carrier grade On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:16 AM, Charles Wu wrote: snip Motorola designed Canopy specifically for the WISP market, not the carrier market. Alvarion designed VL specifically for the carrier market, not the WISP market. /snip Ah, the mis-perceptions of the rugged metal enclosure =) Steve, can you please explain why carriers would prefer a CSMA/CA over a scheduled (WiMAX-like) MAC? Thanks -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Stroh Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Thanks, Steve On Apr 11, 2006, at 18:55, Dylan Oliver wrote: How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will - so where did they go wrong with Canopy? Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has trouble sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC-- --- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/ wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
On a related note, Raising Capital: Get the Money You Need to Grow Your Business is an excellent book. Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Mainstream = affordable residential. The vast majority of available customers for WISP's are residential, and if you can make a business case for using any current alvarion product to provide residential broadband at reasonable prices, I'd love to see it. Niche WISP's are ones that are only high end customers, or business only, etc. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can. If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option. With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot. Scriv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but specialized application., It's just too expensive. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! --- - - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical WISP operator and Alvarion. Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist. They have certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't make mainstream WISP last mile equipment. I have been expecting to see them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything. The ball's in thier court. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Mainstream WISPs need good backhaul to interconnect tower locations. Whatever a WISP uses I am guessing it does not cost much different than what I am choosing to use in the application I am using. I feel I made a good decision. You do not I made a good choice. I think others could benefit from choosing the path I chose. You do not. Let's leave it at that. Scriv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Mainstream = affordable residential. The vast majority of available customers for WISP's are residential, and if you can make a business case for using any current alvarion product to provide residential broadband at reasonable prices, I'd love to see it. Niche WISP's are ones that are only high end customers, or business only, etc. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can. If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option. With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot. Scriv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but specialized application., It's just too expensive. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! --- - - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical WISP operator and Alvarion. Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist. They have certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't make mainstream WISP last mile equipment. I have been expecting to see them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything. The ball's in thier court. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but specialized application., It's just too expensive. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical WISP operator and Alvarion. Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist. They have certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't make mainstream WISP last mile equipment. I have been expecting to see them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything. The ball's in thier court. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can. If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option. With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot. Scriv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but specialized application., It's just too expensive. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical WISP operator and Alvarion. Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist. They have certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't make mainstream WISP last mile equipment. I have been expecting to see them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything. The ball's in thier court. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical WISP operator and Alvarion. Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist. They have certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't make mainstream WISP last mile equipment. I have been expecting to see them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything. The ball's in thier court. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
A scheduled mac alone does not make something carrier grade. I can list a bunch of manufacturers that have polling mac's yet you'll never find them hanging on a carriers depolyment but you'll find lots of Alvarion BreezeAccess VL. And to add version 4.0 changes the rules again. Stay tuned. Brad -Original Message- From: Jeffrey Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 2:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP agreed, VL is far from carrier grade On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:16 AM, Charles Wu wrote: snip Motorola designed Canopy specifically for the WISP market, not the carrier market. Alvarion designed VL specifically for the carrier market, not the WISP market. /snip Ah, the mis-perceptions of the rugged metal enclosure =) Steve, can you please explain why carriers would prefer a CSMA/CA over a scheduled (WiMAX-like) MAC? Thanks -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Stroh Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Thanks, Steve On Apr 11, 2006, at 18:55, Dylan Oliver wrote: How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will - so where did they go wrong with Canopy? Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has trouble sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC-- --- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/ wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
, which is what FTP is designed to do. I argue that FTP is one of the best tests for testing link quality, because if link quality is poor, you see it right away in performance. However, it takes a lot of over head for FTP. Slow PCs may not be able to reach full link speed running a typical windows based FTP program. Thats why programs like IPerf are good, they have low overhead, and still perform at pretty high speeds on slower PCs. When critisizing StarOS's speed tester, I was not saying it was not good. I was more asking if its results were compared against FTP in high packet loss situations? If his test uses similar techiques as FTP not jsut TCP, it very well may gives results equivellent to real world FTP transfers. But I don't know that. Lab tests, and tests under significant packet loss could have much different results comparing Native TCP tests with FTP tests. I also like Iperf because of its abilty to change packet size, and see how that effects throughput. Large packets can bring out more packet loss from falws in link. However, to small packet loss also can have negative effect. Sometimes both tets are needed to get a clear picture of what the end user is feeling. Its not easy being certain, gusessing what performance the consumer is feeling, when you are remote at your office desk. What do you do when you thing performance should be good, but the custoemr says its not? Do you do a ttuck roll to prove it? Not if you have the right tools, to test all the variations. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Tom, I am confused about your testing. If you are testing a link, and it has 2% packet loss, then the link is going to run 2%-4% slower due to the loss, therefore the results will reflect that loss. Ever run a speed test across a link with 50% loss? If it's set to a 2Mbps connection, you get about 1Mbps when testing. It's still a 1Mbps connection, even with packet loss. Even using Trango's Linktest, it shows the maximum speed of the link BASED ON THE LOSS across the link. Am I missing something? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: Ok, assuming Real World Test win. How does your TCP test handle packet loss? Does it slow the test down to attempt to reduce packet loss until its gone? Thats what real world applications do, like FTP, and the real performance subscribers see, regardless of the Link's abilty to pass test traffic faster. I want to see the performance my customers experience. If your link has 2% packetloss, what impact will that have on customer's performance with various applications? Will your TCP tests show that. I'm not passing judgement, I'll let you make that judgement you wrote it. But my TCP tests (Iperf) do not get me that information. I've lost customers insisting that their link was operating perfectly based on TCP speed test, only to learn that the custoemr was right, and their performance was getting destroyed by packet loss. This is an important issue with Wireless, when packet loss is possible, due to interference and environmental condition changes. WRAP board were always in the 23 to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps, Our testing never saw that. Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000 KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client. I don't contest that, based on a lab environemnt without packetloss. Did you repeat those tests, introducing interference/packet loss into the link? 2% packet loss with FTP, can bring your performance of a 25 mbps link down to 100 kbps. Does your test, replicate those results? I agree that TCP is a preferred test for a clean lab environment test, to test maximum obtainable speed. Butwho cares about that? What I want to know is what speed my link in the field is capable of doing, based on the conditions it is deployed in. I'm not in the business of delivering commodity Up-To Burstable Services. I am always amazed at how labels get applied. To call something a lower grade product Understand, I was not saying your product is lower grade than other, buts saying that your product is not being as good as it can be, if it had more types of testing tools. Its what, a days work, to add Iperf to OS image? Results are what count, not how pretty you look or how good you sound. But how do you know what your results are? If tests don't test accurately? It is strange to have to lie to the customer to get a high grade product rating. Maybe we don't need that, and for the most part my users don't want it either. They don't want packet loss either. Most of them prefer to have the whole file delivered intact. This is where you are loosing me. I'm
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Travis, Its real easy to demonstrate my point with Atlas PtP gear. You can hard set at various modulations, and start lowering power, until linktest shows the percentage of packetloss you want to test. Linktest is great to measure loss to tell when you got it at the right level for testing. (not nearly as easy with 802.11 gear to test, as hard to measure what the packet loss actually is at a given moment for accurate comparisons). Of course disable ARQ for testing. Then do the FTP. Just add 3-5% packet loss, and watch how slow FTP gets. The more hops you have between the Host and CLient FTP machines, the worse the performance gets affected by the packet loss. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Tom, I am confused about your testing. If you are testing a link, and it has 2% packet loss, then the link is going to run 2%-4% slower due to the loss, therefore the results will reflect that loss. Ever run a speed test across a link with 50% loss? If it's set to a 2Mbps connection, you get about 1Mbps when testing. It's still a 1Mbps connection, even with packet loss. Even using Trango's Linktest, it shows the maximum speed of the link BASED ON THE LOSS across the link. Am I missing something? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: Ok, assuming Real World Test win. How does your TCP test handle packet loss? Does it slow the test down to attempt to reduce packet loss until its gone? Thats what real world applications do, like FTP, and the real performance subscribers see, regardless of the Link's abilty to pass test traffic faster. I want to see the performance my customers experience. If your link has 2% packetloss, what impact will that have on customer's performance with various applications? Will your TCP tests show that. I'm not passing judgement, I'll let you make that judgement you wrote it. But my TCP tests (Iperf) do not get me that information. I've lost customers insisting that their link was operating perfectly based on TCP speed test, only to learn that the custoemr was right, and their performance was getting destroyed by packet loss. This is an important issue with Wireless, when packet loss is possible, due to interference and environmental condition changes. WRAP board were always in the 23 to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps, Our testing never saw that. Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000 KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client. I don't contest that, based on a lab environemnt without packetloss. Did you repeat those tests, introducing interference/packet loss into the link? 2% packet loss with FTP, can bring your performance of a 25 mbps link down to 100 kbps. Does your test, replicate those results? I agree that TCP is a preferred test for a clean lab environment test, to test maximum obtainable speed. Butwho cares about that? What I want to know is what speed my link in the field is capable of doing, based on the conditions it is deployed in. I'm not in the business of delivering commodity Up-To Burstable Services. I am always amazed at how labels get applied. To call something a lower grade product Understand, I was not saying your product is lower grade than other, buts saying that your product is not being as good as it can be, if it had more types of testing tools. Its what, a days work, to add Iperf to OS image? Results are what count, not how pretty you look or how good you sound. But how do you know what your results are? If tests don't test accurately? It is strange to have to lie to the customer to get a high grade product rating. Maybe we don't need that, and for the most part my users don't want it either. They don't want packet loss either. Most of them prefer to have the whole file delivered intact. This is where you are loosing me. I'm not aware of anyone that lies to give a higher grade offering. My comments are based on results I see in the field with live deployments, that cost me clients and save me clients. I don't sell product or profit from what product user's select. I am not judging your test tool, I have never performed test measuring the accuracy of your testing tool. I am simply asking you the real hard question, for you to evaluate whether your test tool, method considers all the factors that need to be tested. You tell me, but prove it, with an explanation of how your tool handles it. Lonnie, its no big deal to us, we got a solution. We got Iperf running at every hop cell router, and have XP versions of Iperf to Email to our subscribers when tests need to be performed. Not all WISPs are in that position. Its to your advantage, to add the tools
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
agreed, VL is far from carrier grade On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:16 AM, Charles Wu wrote: snip Motorola designed Canopy specifically for the WISP market, not the carrier market. Alvarion designed VL specifically for the carrier market, not the WISP market. /snip Ah, the mis-perceptions of the rugged metal enclosure =) Steve, can you please explain why carriers would prefer a CSMA/CA over a scheduled (WiMAX-like) MAC? Thanks -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Stroh Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Thanks, Steve On Apr 11, 2006, at 18:55, Dylan Oliver wrote: How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will - so where did they go wrong with Canopy? Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has trouble sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC-- --- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/ wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
to correct poor data transmission. It does not follow jsut the default TCP protocol code. It injects decssions from its application level code. We have noticed specifically with FTP, the rate it slows down is tremendously more than just the amount of packet loss on the radio. Thats not a bad thing, people want their data delivered in its entirety error free, which is what FTP is designed to do. I argue that FTP is one of the best tests for testing link quality, because if link quality is poor, you see it right away in performance. However, it takes a lot of over head for FTP. Slow PCs may not be able to reach full link speed running a typical windows based FTP program. Thats why programs like IPerf are good, they have low overhead, and still perform at pretty high speeds on slower PCs. When critisizing StarOS's speed tester, I was not saying it was not good. I was more asking if its results were compared against FTP in high packet loss situations? If his test uses similar techiques as FTP not jsut TCP, it very well may gives results equivellent to real world FTP transfers. But I don't know that. Lab tests, and tests under significant packet loss could have much different results comparing Native TCP tests with FTP tests. I also like Iperf because of its abilty to change packet size, and see how that effects throughput. Large packets can bring out more packet loss from falws in link. However, to small packet loss also can have negative effect. Sometimes both tets are needed to get a clear picture of what the end user is feeling. Its not easy being certain, gusessing what performance the consumer is feeling, when you are remote at your office desk. What do you do when you thing performance should be good, but the custoemr says its not? Do you do a ttuck roll to prove it? Not if you have the right tools, to test all the variations. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Tom, I am confused about your testing. If you are testing a link, and it has 2% packet loss, then the link is going to run 2%-4% slower due to the loss, therefore the results will reflect that loss. Ever run a speed test across a link with 50% loss? If it's set to a 2Mbps connection, you get about 1Mbps when testing. It's still a 1Mbps connection, even with packet loss. Even using Trango's Linktest, it shows the maximum speed of the link BASED ON THE LOSS across the link. Am I missing something? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: Ok, assuming Real World Test win. How does your TCP test handle packet loss? Does it slow the test down to attempt to reduce packet loss until its gone? Thats what real world applications do, like FTP, and the real performance subscribers see, regardless of the Link's abilty to pass test traffic faster. I want to see the performance my customers experience. If your link has 2% packetloss, what impact will that have on customer's performance with various applications? Will your TCP tests show that. I'm not passing judgement, I'll let you make that judgement you wrote it. But my TCP tests (Iperf) do not get me that information. I've lost customers insisting that their link was operating perfectly based on TCP speed test, only to learn that the custoemr was right, and their performance was getting destroyed by packet loss. This is an important issue with Wireless, when packet loss is possible, due to interference and environmental condition changes. WRAP board were always in the 23 to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps, Our testing never saw that. Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000 KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client. I don't contest that, based on a lab environemnt without packetloss. Did you repeat those tests, introducing interference/packet loss into the link? 2% packet loss with FTP, can bring your performance of a 25 mbps link down to 100 kbps. Does your test, replicate those results? I agree that TCP is a preferred test for a clean lab environment test, to test maximum obtainable speed. Butwho cares about that? What I want to know is what speed my link in the field is capable of doing, based on the conditions it is deployed in. I'm not in the business of delivering commodity Up-To Burstable Services. I am always amazed at how labels get applied. To call something a lower grade product Understand, I was not saying your product is lower grade than other, buts saying that your product is not being as good as it can be, if it had more types of testing tools. Its what, a days work, to add Iperf to OS image? Results are what count, not how pretty you look or how good you sound. But how do you know
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
I was thinking I would be the devils advocate, and ask this question: Why go thru all the hassle of learning Mikrotik(Which, IMHO, Is a PITA), when You can save the learning curve, and use Tranzeo, Deliberant or even HighGain Antennas solutions that are cheap and easy to administer and a M0n0wall box at the NOC?. When You combine the assembly required for all the WRAP boards, buying the pigtails, and all of the other good stuff that goes along with being a MT shop, learning the management GUI etc., You could be up and running in no time with a M0n0wall box and gear shipped directly from the OEM's all ready assembled and ready to go. And M0n0wall is very easy compared to MT, and if You were so inclined, You could use the default settings and have a fairly decent network with an old P III and 512M of RAM, which is MUCH cheaper than any MT box. Granted, MT has a few more features, but the average WISP doesn't need half the stuff that is in there. Any thoughts? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Travis, I agree my explanation is not complete regarding detail working of the protocols, and see your logic in your response, that what would FTP do if TCP already took care of it already. However, it doesn't work that way exactly. Does TCP fully take care of it? There are limits on how TCP works, and to truly understand them, I suggest you read the RFC, as its just been to long, since I read them, to explain them well. I don't need to remember the details anymore, just that the phenominon exists to watch out for. Part of it has to do with the reaction time TCP has to scale up and down speed. And when 802.11, waits for retransmission, how does TCP react to that? They have different timing rules in their decissions. I don't know the answers, why. Personally, I feel its the developer's job to figure that stuff out. My job is to sell radios. My job is to disclose real world findings, so it keeps the developers on their toes to consider everything they need to consider in doing their job. All I can tell is, create 3-5% packet loss consistently on a link, and perform an FTP, and watch the degregation escalate. And then watch and see if Iperf's TCP performance matches. Or for that matter perform a web based speed test, which can not be recognized as accurate, but regardless, the customer will through the Dial-UP speed results in your face, creating unnecessary support headache, so its relevant how the link responds to them. I have two tasks slated on my RD table. 1) Compare Alvarion and Mikrotik throughput in noisy environments. 2) Compare FTP and IPERF TCP tests over 802.11 gear, at various packet losses, and chart. (most of my real world is with TDD). But I probably won't get to it for a while, things are backed up and busy on the install front. I'd love someone to join this thread, that has detailed knowledge of the protocols, that could give a detailed explanation for us. Or step up to the plate to run the tests sooner, and report the results. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Tom, Again, I am confused. You state that TCP will correct for packet loss it detects... so in that case, FTP would never see the packet loss because TCP is already correcting for the loss. My point was, if you have a link with 2% loss, it will show up doing a TCP test by being slower than expected. Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: Travis, Am I missing something? Yes you are. The results you are explaining are appropriate for Layer2 testing and UDP testing. (2% packet loss = 2% reduction in speed) Its different with TCP and way different with FTP. Understanding its 1:30am, my mind is shot after a 20 hour work day, and my theory may be a little weak as explanation, however the gist of it is TCP is a transmission Control Protocol, meaning it controls the flow of data when and how fast to transmit. Or in other words, detects when their is packet loss, and slows it self down when it occurs. If a PC sends data faster than the Link capacity, packet loss occurs. All TCP links have some level of packet loss. For example, common Bandwdith management programs purposely drop packets (thus packet loss) in order to slow down transmission of data to a specific speed. What keep a PC from sending 10 mbps of data across a 1 mbps link? The Answer is TCP. It slows down transmission to meet the speed of the link, determining that based on when packet loss occurs. We are talking very very low amounts of packetloss, for TCP to tune itself for error free transmission. However, when there is a large amount of packet loss (such as 2 %), it slows transmission way down, as TCP tries to resend lost packets, and instead of it getting done at the radio, it has to go all the way back to the PC to determine when data was not delivered and when needed retransmission. This is because transmission is connection based with TCP, a connection between PC and end destination. So if a packet is lost on a hop, there may be many hops of packets to determine that re-transmission is needed, adding large amounts of latency, slowing transmission to a screaching halt. Now of course Trango solves this problem with its ARQ feature. When you get 2% packetloss, the link speed goes down 2% plus a small overhead amount, and the end applications, PCs, and other OSI layers dont even know the packetloss occured, as Trango transparently corrected it. Many have argued a method of ARQ is part of the 802.11 protocol for reliable delivery, which is true, but the performance hit in terms of throughput and latency is huge. Not to mention some faster versions of 802.11 (a/g) may even get rid of some of those features in order to deliver the faster speeds
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Get a 2.4 ap and a couple of cpe kits and do a small test install. If it looks good buy more. One of the first things we'd need to know in order to really help you out would be more info on what your competition is doing marlon - Original Message - From: Richard Goodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 8:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
And lets not forget about all of the really nice things that Motorola does for the WISP industry at the FCC. NOT marlon - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP As a former Canopy user, I would like to point out a couple of issues not mentioned here. 1) Canopy is limited to vertical polarity in PTMP deployments. Trango and many other systems can be deployed in horizontal polarity, pretty much avoiding any Canopy in the area. 2) Canopy systems will be more robust in comparison to other systems deployed at the same antenna gain and polarity, and they will also coexist nicely with other Canopy systems if they are all running GPS sync on the access points. HOWEVER, non-synced Canopy causes other Canopy systems all kinds of problems, and other types of systems will take a Canopy system down if the other system has higher gain and runs on the same path. Canopy will run with 3db of signal to noise separation, which is more robust than 802.11b for example which needs 5-6db - but that doesn't make it immune to noise. There are situations where the poor antenna design of the Canopy ends up getting more noise and will run worse than a better engineered 802.11b system. It is easy to build a 2000lb elephant (legally, I will add) that will kick the 500lb gorilla's butt. Been there, done that. I'm glad I don't have to deal with Canopy any more. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Forrest W Christian wrote: Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. Since Canopy hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll mention it. You really can't go wrong with a canopy installation. It works, even in the presence of noise that would kill other systems. We swapped a dying (due to interference) Trango system with a canopy system well over a year ago and haven't looked back. As customers on our existing 802.11b network have problems we just swap them to Canopy. Some here will probably mention canopy's abusive spectrum use. Yes, Motorola uses a very agressive modulation which both provides for incredible interference robustness, but unfortunately doesn't play very well with others. Systems with marginal link budget will fail when put in the presence of a motorola radio. I have heard this referred to as the 500 pound gorilla approach - I.E. where does a 500 pound gorilla set? Anywhere he wants to. I find it hard to see this as a disavantage to the Canopy operator. After all this is business, and you need to make decisions which improve your bottom line. One more thing... you need to be very careful about FCC certification of systems. Many of the systems which people put together themselves are not legal in the eyes of the FCC. In short, buying a radio from vendor A and pairing it with an antenna from vendor B may or may not be legal, even if the EIRP limit is not exceeded. Plus, you will have vendors (distributors mostly) which will lie to you about whether or not a given pair is legal. Currently many WISP's are doing things which are definitely not legal under the rules, and count on the FCC's continued non-enforcement of the part-15 bands as part of their business plan. As being an Amateur Radio operator and seeing what happens when the FCC decides to actually pursue enforcement in a band, I wouldn't want to tie my continued business survival to illegal equipment. -forrest -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Motorola designed Canopy specifically for the WISP market, not the carrier market. Alvarion designed VL specifically for the carrier market, not the WISP market. Thanks, Steve On Apr 11, 2006, at 18:55, Dylan Oliver wrote: How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will - so where did they go wrong with Canopy? Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has trouble sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC-- --- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
snip Motorola designed Canopy specifically for the WISP market, not the carrier market. Alvarion designed VL specifically for the carrier market, not the WISP market. /snip Ah, the mis-perceptions of the rugged metal enclosure =) Steve, can you please explain why carriers would prefer a CSMA/CA over a scheduled (WiMAX-like) MAC? Thanks -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Stroh Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Thanks, Steve On Apr 11, 2006, at 18:55, Dylan Oliver wrote: How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will - so where did they go wrong with Canopy? Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has trouble sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC-- --- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Hello, Maybe my math is off this morning, for lack of coffee but 2286 Kbit does not equal 22000 Kbit (2.286 Mbit does not equal 22 Mega bit.) which is what I thought I saw at first glance. So if that was KBYTE (which I think it is) instead of Kbit (Kb vs KB) 2286 KBYTE x 8 = 18288 (18.288 Mega Bit) Which is certainly impressive considering the fact that its 10 radios away, and 8 hops as the traceroute shows! But it is Still a bit above half the 30 or 35 Mbit you were previously quoting. -Michael Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: It is TCP. We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never be seen by a customer doing an FTP download. We are looking at building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in future. I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100 km of repeater distances. The shot is split in half with mountain shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to the POP in each town. We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP. It is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios. I have pasted a speed test from the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride. Both are Linux systems with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth control. Also I have the traceroute to show the hops. lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx rx rate: 2286 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) lon-home:~/staros # lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1 traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 192.168.250.10 0.430 ms 0.401 ms 0.496 ms 2 10.10.48.254 1.655 ms 1.447 ms 1.185 ms 3 10.10.227.254 2.686 ms 1.965 ms 5.428 ms 4 10.10.12.4 5.469 ms 3.250 ms 4.501 ms 5 10.10.47.253 4.946 ms 4.415 ms 3.581 ms 6 10.10.51.254 6.077 ms 6.472 ms 8.063 ms 7 10.14.99.254 12.615 ms * 5.777 ms 8 10.10.29.1 6.569 ms 7.295 ms 7.686 ms lon-home:~/staros # Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, Is that TCP or UDP? Travis Microserv Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
John: Here's my working definition of carrier grade: Designed for use by carriers Suitable for use by carriers Sufficiently reliable for use by carriers There is MUCH that goes into a product designed for use by carriers. It's expensive and a tough market, so a lot of vendors don't try. Here are just a few features that are carrier grade requirements from my perspective: * Designed for use in all conceivable weather elements * Designed for long operational use with minimal attention (in the WISP market, one measure is that it doesn't reboot itself, or require regular reboots) * Designed for easy and fast repair * The vendor stocks ample replacement units deployed geographically for fast supply. * Support expertise by the vendor is readily available (excellent, easy-to-access tech support). Note that such support is almost never free, and carriers don't expect it to be. When they need help, they need it NOW and need to get their systems back online fast. (Carriers often have mandated time-to-repair maximums by regulatory agencies.) * Subtle features like strain relief on all connectors, meeting the telecom industry requirements for rack mounting, built-in protection for power line surges and lightning. * Superb monitoring and remote control capabilities * Offer continuous VERY-in-depth training programs at the factory so that carriers can get their personnel FULLY up to speed on a product. Again, this almost never free, and carriers don't expect it to be. * Offer continuous product improvement, bug fixes, recalls when appropriate, and does so proactively when an issue is identified, and does so in a way to minimize downtime such as offering proactive replacement units. Etc. Regarding Alvarion versus WISPs... it's pretty simple. By offering more like carrier-grade products, Alvarion saw FAR more market demand by carriers, public safety, enterprise than they saw in the WISP market. They are willing to sell to WISPs, but few WISPs are willing to take the time to truly understand Alvarion's value proposition which involves FAR more than mere price of the product. You've finally come around to this view John, and you'll discover that you have a lot of company in that view - which isn't (widely) represented on this list or necessarily within WISPA. That's because operators who have spent the money for quality gear like Alvarion's generally don't have NEARLY as many issues with such gear that require group support... and such operators don't wish to associate their businesses with the we'll just hack up a Linksys AP and have cheap gear attitude that a lot of people in the telecom industry equate with WISPs. Is Alvarion arrogant? Yes, at times, and certain individuals. But I think that's mostly a lot of pride and recognition that they were one of the pioneering companies in making it possible to offer carrier-grade services in license-exempt spectrum - something that the telecom industry KNEW could NOT be done. It's also the case that Alvarion offers the broadest product line in Broadband Wireless Internet Access - licensed and license-exempt, fixed and mobile, high-capacity and low-capacity, etc. Alvarion has very capable competitors in various segments, but I can't think of any company that competes head-to-head with Alvarion in all segments, even Airspan. Thanks, Steve On Apr 11, 2006, at 20:51, John Scrivner wrote: I decided to do some reading on the term carrier-grade and have found the following to be what is considered a definition in relation to our industry. One random source on the web refers to this as, A term that implies a system that is designed to have increased availability and timeliness to meet the requirements of a modern communications network element. I saw this quantified on one site as being, a network device which has a sustained uptime of over 99.999%. This was as close to a quantifiable definition as I have found though it gives no length of time or other parameters to use for calculation of this percentage. According to Hughes Software Systems in regard to Carrier-grade they state that equipment can only be considered Carrier-grade after several years of real field use shows that it is highly available and reliable. In the end it is a very subjective term and one I will not use in the future unless I can quantify the classification. Basically there is no firm definition but I have heard of Alvarion referred to as Carrier-grade by others and mistakingly assumed it was a clearly defined characteristic. My apologies for this error in wording. With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Actually 2,286 KBytes/sec is 22.86 mbps as compared to the way Telcos rate their ADSL throughput, so I use the same x10 method. The quote of 35 mbps and higher is between two radios whereas the copy and paste shows through ten radios. Obviously to get 22 mbps at the end there is a higher rate in the middle since you lose a bit at each radio. Here is the test repeated on one radio hop. That radio link is also the main feed for the network that feeds to McBride and picks up 9 AP sites and over 200 customers. It brings the feeds into 4 resale ADSL lines that we get from Sprint. The normal traffic through that link is about 2 mbps so my test was competing with traffic on a live link. We use source routing to send particular customers to our choice of ADSL line. I do manual shifting for balancing, but since average throughput is 2 mbps and each ADSL line is 4 mbps / 1 mbps we are only scratching the surface. The system does peak to over 10 mbps but very, very rarely. Lonnie lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.48.254 password -tx tx rate: 4607 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) lon-home:~/staros # tracepath 10.10.48.254 1: 192.168.250.200 (192.168.250.200) 0.381ms pmtu 1500 1: 192.168.250.10 (192.168.250.10)1.241ms 2: 10.10.48.254 (10.10.48.254)2.565ms reached Resume: pmtu 1500 hops 2 back 2 lon-home:~/staros # On 4/12/06, Michael Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Maybe my math is off this morning, for lack of coffee but 2286 Kbit does not equal 22000 Kbit (2.286 Mbit does not equal 22 Mega bit.) which is what I thought I saw at first glance. So if that was KBYTE (which I think it is) instead of Kbit (Kb vs KB) 2286 KBYTE x 8 = 18288 (18.288 Mega Bit) Which is certainly impressive considering the fact that its 10 radios away, and 8 hops as the traceroute shows! But it is Still a bit above half the 30 or 35 Mbit you were previously quoting. -Michael Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: It is TCP. We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never be seen by a customer doing an FTP download. We are looking at building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in future. I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100 km of repeater distances. The shot is split in half with mountain shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to the POP in each town. We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP. It is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios. I have pasted a speed test from the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride. Both are Linux systems with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth control. Also I have the traceroute to show the hops. lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx rx rate: 2286 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) lon-home:~/staros # lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1 traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 192.168.250.10 0.430 ms 0.401 ms 0.496 ms 2 10.10.48.254 1.655 ms 1.447 ms 1.185 ms 3 10.10.227.254 2.686 ms 1.965 ms 5.428 ms 4 10.10.12.4 5.469 ms 3.250 ms 4.501 ms 5 10.10.47.253 4.946 ms 4.415 ms 3.581 ms 6 10.10.51.254 6.077 ms 6.472 ms 8.063 ms 7 10.14.99.254 12.615 ms * 5.777 ms 8 10.10.29.1 6.569 ms 7.295 ms 7.686 ms lon-home:~/staros # Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, Is that TCP or UDP? Travis Microserv Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Lonnie, Unfortuneately, not having UDP tests, does not allow accurate results. The reason is that UDP will show the point at which packet loss will occur, and at what percentage. Without that similar data, a TCP test is pointless. I see some people do TCP speed tests (a method other than FTP), and it goes full capacity minus the percent packet loss of a percent or so. But then when a FTP gets done performance drops to a few hundred kb. The reason is FTP slows itself down to attempt to reduce packetloss. IN many wireless systems, the packetloss stays consistent and can not be removed by reducing speed, therefore the speed just keeps going slower and slower and slower until it crawls. A TCP test also does not show consistency of a link, or sparatic slow down, as they all get averaged out over the time period of the test. If there are slowdown or hesitance on a wireless link using a UDP test, the packetloss is instantly seen. Doing a TCP test may show peek speed or average speed, but it does not show the ability to deliver consistent speed, what most companies need that are buying wireless to replace T1 lines. Relying on TCP test alone, limits your product to a lower grade product, less than it can be. An adequate test, does not need to be a UDP test, it can also be a layer2 test. The most valuable tool of Trango for example is its Layer2 Linktest, that shows throughput, and most importantly packetloss while performing that test. It gives the abilty to run a test that takes priority over any other traffic on the link, to get the true full performance of that link at that moment in time. It allows an integrator to instantly be able to determine the health of their links with total accuracy, quickly, without first disconnecting clients, that can be complicated, when multiple Linux re-configures might be needed to stop all other traffic. For radios that don't have their own MAC, Iperf is one way to get most of the data collected. Measuring packet loss is more important than measuring top speed in my mind. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP It is TCP. We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never be seen by a customer doing an FTP download. We are looking at building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in future. I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100 km of repeater distances. The shot is split in half with mountain shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to the POP in each town. We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP. It is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios. I have pasted a speed test from the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride. Both are Linux systems with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth control. Also I have the traceroute to show the hops. lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx rx rate: 2286 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) lon-home:~/staros # lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1 traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 192.168.250.10 0.430 ms 0.401 ms 0.496 ms 2 10.10.48.254 1.655 ms 1.447 ms 1.185 ms 3 10.10.227.254 2.686 ms 1.965 ms 5.428 ms 4 10.10.12.4 5.469 ms 3.250 ms 4.501 ms 5 10.10.47.253 4.946 ms 4.415 ms 3.581 ms 6 10.10.51.254 6.077 ms 6.472 ms 8.063 ms 7 10.14.99.254 12.615 ms * 5.777 ms 8 10.10.29.1 6.569 ms 7.295 ms 7.686 ms lon-home:~/staros # Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, Is that TCP or UDP? Travis Microserv Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
PS. UDP tests usually need to be run with Dynamic Modulation features disabled. ISPs that delver telco grade services usually need to operate without Dynamic moduilation anyway, to consistently guarantee the link capacity available to tenants, and set at a speed that can deliver reliabilty consistently, in my opinion. I know some orthogon users may differ in opinion.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
This may be the case, but the test we perform seems to describe what we see in real life use. As long as you have consistency it does not matter what you do. The ability to compare apples to apples is what is truly important, and since we began to use TCP many years ago, we still continue to do so, since it gives us a relevance and comparison to the systems in current use. My TCP numbers are lower than you'll get with a UDP test, so I am quite happy to compare my TCP to UDP because my TCP numbers are pretty nearly as high as numbers I hear reported for other high end systems that test with UDP. For instance, our TCP numbers on a WRAP board were always in the 23 to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps, which is a number I have never seen even in my dreams doing an FTP transfer (with the WRAP boards). Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000 KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client. Our goal is to give you numbers you will see in real life. After all, your user is going to be ragging on you based on the FTP results they see. I am always amazed at how labels get applied. To call something a lower grade product because of a test method sure indicates a conclusion that needs to be re-examined. Results are what count, not how pretty you look or how good you sound. We have come pretty close to the goal of real world numbers, so I am not fazed at all by your lower grade product ranking. It is strange to have to lie to the customer to get a high grade product rating. Maybe we don't need that, and for the most part my users don't want it either. They don't want packet loss either. Most of them prefer to have the whole file delivered intact. Regards, Lonnie On 4/12/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, Unfortuneately, not having UDP tests, does not allow accurate results. The reason is that UDP will show the point at which packet loss will occur, and at what percentage. Without that similar data, a TCP test is pointless. I see some people do TCP speed tests (a method other than FTP), and it goes full capacity minus the percent packet loss of a percent or so. But then when a FTP gets done performance drops to a few hundred kb. The reason is FTP slows itself down to attempt to reduce packetloss. IN many wireless systems, the packetloss stays consistent and can not be removed by reducing speed, therefore the speed just keeps going slower and slower and slower until it crawls. A TCP test also does not show consistency of a link, or sparatic slow down, as they all get averaged out over the time period of the test. If there are slowdown or hesitance on a wireless link using a UDP test, the packetloss is instantly seen. Doing a TCP test may show peek speed or average speed, but it does not show the ability to deliver consistent speed, what most companies need that are buying wireless to replace T1 lines. Relying on TCP test alone, limits your product to a lower grade product, less than it can be. An adequate test, does not need to be a UDP test, it can also be a layer2 test. The most valuable tool of Trango for example is its Layer2 Linktest, that shows throughput, and most importantly packetloss while performing that test. It gives the abilty to run a test that takes priority over any other traffic on the link, to get the true full performance of that link at that moment in time. It allows an integrator to instantly be able to determine the health of their links with total accuracy, quickly, without first disconnecting clients, that can be complicated, when multiple Linux re-configures might be needed to stop all other traffic. For radios that don't have their own MAC, Iperf is one way to get most of the data collected. Measuring packet loss is more important than measuring top speed in my mind. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP It is TCP. We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never be seen by a customer doing an FTP download. We are looking at building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in future. I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100 km of repeater distances. The shot is split in half with mountain shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to the POP in each town. We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP. It is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios. I have pasted a speed test from the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride. Both are Linux systems with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth control. Also I have the traceroute to show the hops. lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx rx rate: 2286 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) lon
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
What we do is measure non compressible data and that becomes the absolute max I will let someone ask for. That means with compressible data we do better than they expect. No harm done, we figure. Lonnie On 4/12/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS. UDP tests usually need to be run with Dynamic Modulation features disabled. ISPs that delver telco grade services usually need to operate without Dynamic moduilation anyway, to consistently guarantee the link capacity available to tenants, and set at a speed that can deliver reliabilty consistently, in my opinion. I know some orthogon users may differ in opinion.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Lonnie, Is the WAR/staros platform working PTMP or is it PTP? Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP What we do is measure non compressible data and that becomes the absolute max I will let someone ask for. That means with compressible data we do better than they expect. No harm done, we figure. Lonnie On 4/12/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS. UDP tests usually need to be run with Dynamic Modulation features disabled. ISPs that delver telco grade services usually need to operate without Dynamic moduilation anyway, to consistently guarantee the link capacity available to tenants, and set at a speed that can deliver reliabilty consistently, in my opinion. I know some orthogon users may differ in opinion.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Here's the reply for all answers. Look at the name of the association. WISPA. We are not carriers, we Do Not get listed on the stock-exchange, we do not have money to burn. This is the reason for our existence. We deliver the goods where these fools fear to tread. A Microcell with 10 customers is profitable. Follow the 10% rule - 100 people in the community of your AP. People this is Rural Countryside, where even your Cellphone don't work here most times, but we do (I have a Skypeout account to make calls). Don't forget your 911 VOIP database. When you call 911 here, you hope the fire truck driver lives down the road from you. He knows it is the brick house on the north east corner. My total area of service does not have a population of 1 million. Explain the $1,000,000.00 you want me to spend. Tranzeo and Company got the message - here's a CPE for $5.00 - I'll take it, can I have twenty (don't know where they are going, but the price is right (bang,bang,bang, God my head is going to hurt tomorrow - this brickwall is not giving)) I have Wave rider in the garbage, I have Cirronet in the Garbage, I have Linksys in the Garbage, I have Engenius in the Garbage. How long have I been in business as a WISP - since 1999. Now I can guarantee you that if I had Alvarion/carrier grade vendor some of its models would be in the garbage. (you know what carrier grades means - VAR Value added reseller - charge more for the future services you are going to deliver, if needed). Now Today I climb a tower and replaced a CB3 (that wisps swear by) with a lowly Hawking HWBA11 (I don't even think Hawkings make them anymore (damn Everyready Bunny stole the idea - just keep on going). All of my CB3's are showing their age. My Tranzeo CPQ's, 6000's and 5.8's are doing fine (Including the one that flew off the vehicle at a high rate of speed (95kph - thats' what the speedo said) )Forgot it on the roof - so I'm over 50 - sue me. Vendor if your equipment don't follow a standard I won't buy it If your equipment does not offer a ROI in three months max, no way If your equipment cost more than $300.00 installed no customer wants it Notice I am still waiting for 900mhz equipment Oh by the way this is my business, my clients, my area and I learnt the hard way what is good for my business. (by the time we had learnt how to use our Cirronet, we had to remove it, the industry had moved on. So I am thankful for the live I got out of our CB3's and Hawkings. But they are paid for and we made a profit. Now we are replacing the radio's with Tranzeo 6000's and CPQ CPE's, unless we get a NLOS solution with bandwidth. End of Ramble, Sorry I took so long, :-) You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca office 905 349-2084 Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900 skype cajeptha Steve Stroh wrote: John: Here's my working definition of carrier grade: Designed for use by carriers Suitable for use by carriers Sufficiently reliable for use by carriers There is MUCH that goes into a product designed for use by carriers. It's expensive and a tough market, so a lot of vendors don't try. Here are just a few features that are carrier grade requirements from my perspective: * Designed for use in all conceivable weather elements * Designed for long operational use with minimal attention (in the WISP market, one measure is that it doesn't reboot itself, or require regular reboots) * Designed for easy and fast repair * The vendor stocks ample replacement units deployed geographically for fast supply. * Support expertise by the vendor is readily available (excellent, easy-to-access tech support). Note that such support is almost never free, and carriers don't expect it to be. When they need help, they need it NOW and need to get their systems back online fast. (Carriers often have mandated time-to-repair maximums by regulatory agencies.) * Subtle features like strain relief on all connectors, meeting the telecom industry requirements for rack mounting, built-in protection for power line surges and lightning. * Superb monitoring and remote control capabilities * Offer continuous VERY-in-depth training programs at the factory so that carriers can get their personnel FULLY up to speed on a product. Again, this almost never free, and carriers don't expect it to be. * Offer continuous product improvement, bug fixes, recalls when appropriate, and does so proactively when an issue is identified, and does so in a way to minimize downtime such as offering proactive replacement units. Etc. Regarding Alvarion versus WISPs... it's pretty simple. By offering more like carrier-grade products, Alvarion saw FAR more market demand by carriers, public safety, enterprise than they saw in the WISP market. They are willing to sell to WISPs, but few WISPs are willing to take the time to truly understand Alvarion's value proposition which involves FAR more than mere price of the product. You've finally
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Steve, excellent points. except... (also see inline) By your definition of Carrier grade, I could argue that many WISPs that just so happen not to use Alvarion, may very well better meet the definition of carrier grade than the carriers themselves. One of the negatives about the Alvarion product is that they have fallen victom to the IBM syndrom. They try and be the best and standardize on that, but then they lock them selves into a box with a limited product, and get left behind as far as features and product enhancements. IBM lost the war to Clones, because Clones were able to innovate faster and deliver more competitive products sooner. Alvarion, has tried to full fill the role of carrier grade, probably better than any other manufacturer, from the perspective of the support level carrier demand, and quality of the manufacturing of the product. But ultimately, where does Alvarion stand technology wise? Are they leading? Thats debatable. For example: Alvarion still 1. Single Freq range per radio unit. 2. Single polarity per radio unit. Limitations even the cheapest manufacturers have overcome. Many businesses operational savings are being had by WISPs chosing other third party wireless gear, allowing their operations to be more carrier class. (less stock, fewer components needed per truck, easier ordering, lower pricing, consistent OS interfaces, etc). I'm not just targeting Alvarion in my complaint. How many manufactturers have taken advantage os new smart antenna technologies or FCC rules for higher power or new freq ranges? For companies like Alvarion to stay on top as a leading Carrier grade company, they are going to have to break out of the IBM mold, and start innovating quicker. They are starting to do that, by comming out with Wimax and 4.9Ghz gear quicker than other competitors in the space. Here's my working definition of carrier grade: Designed for use by carriers Suitable for use by carriers Sufficiently reliable for use by carriers There is MUCH that goes into a product designed for use by carriers. It's expensive and a tough market, so a lot of vendors don't try. Here are just a few features that are carrier grade requirements from my perspective: * Designed for use in all conceivable weather elements WISPs pass. (Alvarion not required to do so) * Designed for long operational use with minimal attention (in the WISP market, one measure is that it doesn't reboot itself, or require regular reboots) WISPs fail. 1 minute outages every month or so must be tolerated. Even Alvarion is known for occasional auto system reboots when harsh interence is encountered. * Designed for easy and fast repair WISPs pass and shine. But not aware of any Carrier Telco that passes that requirement. Less likely with Alvarion, as more models need to be stocked, to ahve all conceivable replacement models. * The vendor stocks ample replacement units deployed geographically for fast supply. WISPs pass. Telco's generally Fail. Not many Companies keep $100,000 switches on hand for quick replacement. * Support expertise by the vendor is readily available (excellent, easy-to-access tech support). Note that such support is almost never free, and carriers don't expect it to be. When they need help, they need it NOW and need to get their systems back online fast. (Carriers often have mandated time-to-repair maximums by regulatory agencies.) Yes. But not aware of many Telcos that have a faster response time in their Tarrifs, than good local WISPs. * Subtle features like strain relief on all connectors, meeting the telecom industry requirements for rack mounting, built-in protection for power line surges and lightning. WISPs put in a valient effort, but fail or barely pass. Telcos pass and shine, throwing millions of dollars away in over engineering. So although they shine, its responsible for the bankruptcy of 25 of the largest 29 Telcos through year 2001. * Superb monitoring and remote control capabilities WISPs pass. However, where Telcos shine, is 100s of commercial product are available to collect and store and track the statistics to backup SLA guarantees. WISPs can offer and fullfil the same SLAs maybe even better, but can they prove it? * Offer continuous VERY-in-depth training programs at the factory so that carriers can get their personnel FULLY up to speed on a product. Again, this almost never free, and carriers don't expect it to be. Every WISPs product manufacturer offers this. The only reason all WISPs may not have it, is their decission not to pay for it, as they don't have a huge staff to justify it, when they know it already. * Offer continuous product improvement, bug fixes, recalls when appropriate, and does so proactively when an issue is identified, and does so in a way to minimize downtime such as offering proactive replacement units. Telcos pass. Most WISP networks do not. Open Source,
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP It is TCP. We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never be seen by a customer doing an FTP download. We are looking at building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in future. I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100 km of repeater distances. The shot is split in half with mountain shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to the POP in each town. We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP. It is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios. I have pasted a speed test from the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride. Both are Linux systems with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth control. Also I have the traceroute to show the hops. lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx rx rate: 2286 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) lon-home:~/staros # lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1 traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 192.168.250.10 0.430 ms 0.401 ms 0.496 ms 2 10.10.48.254 1.655 ms 1.447 ms 1.185 ms 3 10.10.227.254 2.686 ms 1.965 ms 5.428 ms 4 10.10.12.4 5.469 ms 3.250 ms 4.501 ms 5 10.10.47.253 4.946 ms 4.415 ms 3.581 ms 6 10.10.51.254 6.077 ms 6.472 ms 8.063 ms 7 10.14.99.254 12.615 ms * 5.777 ms 8 10.10.29.1 6.569 ms 7.295 ms 7.686 ms lon-home:~/staros # Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, Is that TCP or UDP? Travis Microserv Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
, without a standardized test tool embedded in the radio. I got Iperf on the cell servers. But I'd love to be able to test performance to the CPE, without calling the customer to assist, and see the results I'm getting on the spot. It puts me in a vulnerable possition SLA wise and response time wise. You can take the advise or leave it. Just my 2 cents. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP This may be the case, but the test we perform seems to describe what we see in real life use. As long as you have consistency it does not matter what you do. The ability to compare apples to apples is what is truly important, and since we began to use TCP many years ago, we still continue to do so, since it gives us a relevance and comparison to the systems in current use. My TCP numbers are lower than you'll get with a UDP test, so I am quite happy to compare my TCP to UDP because my TCP numbers are pretty nearly as high as numbers I hear reported for other high end systems that test with UDP. For instance, our TCP numbers on a WRAP board were always in the 23 to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps, which is a number I have never seen even in my dreams doing an FTP transfer (with the WRAP boards). Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000 KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client. Our goal is to give you numbers you will see in real life. After all, your user is going to be ragging on you based on the FTP results they see. I am always amazed at how labels get applied. To call something a lower grade product because of a test method sure indicates a conclusion that needs to be re-examined. Results are what count, not how pretty you look or how good you sound. We have come pretty close to the goal of real world numbers, so I am not fazed at all by your lower grade product ranking. It is strange to have to lie to the customer to get a high grade product rating. Maybe we don't need that, and for the most part my users don't want it either. They don't want packet loss either. Most of them prefer to have the whole file delivered intact. Yes, but that really isn't a choice made or controled by the ISP, we deploy in a dynamic environment that changes. I remember when I was green in this industry, and rode my high horse, and stated, Links should be engineered for no packet loss from the beginning. In that is exactly what we did! But environments change. When a competitor points a Radio at your cell site from 300 yards away, packet loss occurs, nothing can be done about it on the spot. re-engineering must take place to illiminate packetloss. How much time will a WISP have to correct packet loss, before they lose their subscriber? I can tell you that Trango ARQ, bought me months of time to get around to making a re-engineering repair. The first step, is to realize the performance of a link, to know how severe it is, and what steps need to be made to correct it. Every tool in the toolbox, helps deal with running a better operation as a WISP. Regards, Lonnie On 4/12/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, Unfortuneately, not having UDP tests, does not allow accurate results. The reason is that UDP will show the point at which packet loss will occur, and at what percentage. Without that similar data, a TCP test is pointless. I see some people do TCP speed tests (a method other than FTP), and it goes full capacity minus the percent packet loss of a percent or so. But then when a FTP gets done performance drops to a few hundred kb. The reason is FTP slows itself down to attempt to reduce packetloss. IN many wireless systems, the packetloss stays consistent and can not be removed by reducing speed, therefore the speed just keeps going slower and slower and slower until it crawls. A TCP test also does not show consistency of a link, or sparatic slow down, as they all get averaged out over the time period of the test. If there are slowdown or hesitance on a wireless link using a UDP test, the packetloss is instantly seen. Doing a TCP test may show peek speed or average speed, but it does not show the ability to deliver consistent speed, what most companies need that are buying wireless to replace T1 lines. Relying on TCP test alone, limits your product to a lower grade product, less than it can be. An adequate test, does not need to be a UDP test, it can also be a layer2 test. The most valuable tool of Trango for example is its Layer2 Linktest, that shows throughput, and most importantly packetloss while performing that test. It gives the abilty to run a test that takes priority over any other traffic on the link, to get the true full performance of that link at that moment in time. It allows
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical WISP operator and Alvarion. Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist. They have certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't make mainstream WISP last mile equipment. I have been expecting to see them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything. The ball's in thier court. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
I hope you enjoy yours as much as I have mine. :D From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Chad, Based on your post, I just purchased a couple 533mhz boards with CM9 cards from Lonnie. :) Travis Microserv Chad Halsted wrote: Travis, I have a StarOS PTP link using the 533mhz WAR boards that get up to 33Mbps (TCP). Thats using CM9 atheros cards and 2 PacWireless Dishes. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web sitehttp://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 09:15To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPSo... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes thatGeorge was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and evenseems to improve signal quality.Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 08:09To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPGuys;These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISPoperator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, andsomeone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected byconventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channelspacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These otherguys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do notneed.Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches.I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes.One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over theplace. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed anomni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customersand I'm happier.The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new warplatform.GeorgeTravis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds ofcustomers per sector.TravisMicroservRick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has thatcpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begindelivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built acouple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750.My questions:What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want tokeep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. Myenvironment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.Lee --WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006--No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006--WISPA Wireless List: wireless
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
have one AP for all my wifi needs, instead of multiple APs on the roof for various needs, and I only need one channels for all my needs, instead of multiple channels for various needs. (Wep compatibilty mode, WPA high security mode, HotSpot Free public access, VLAN protected provisioning mode). It will be great when you get Virtual AP added to the product. It gets hard for me to test performance between a StarOS client and a Mikrotik AP, without a standardized test tool embedded in the radio. I got Iperf on the cell servers. But I'd love to be able to test performance to the CPE, without calling the customer to assist, and see the results I'm getting on the spot. It puts me in a vulnerable possition SLA wise and response time wise. You can take the advise or leave it. Just my 2 cents. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP This may be the case, but the test we perform seems to describe what we see in real life use. As long as you have consistency it does not matter what you do. The ability to compare apples to apples is what is truly important, and since we began to use TCP many years ago, we still continue to do so, since it gives us a relevance and comparison to the systems in current use. My TCP numbers are lower than you'll get with a UDP test, so I am quite happy to compare my TCP to UDP because my TCP numbers are pretty nearly as high as numbers I hear reported for other high end systems that test with UDP. For instance, our TCP numbers on a WRAP board were always in the 23 to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps, which is a number I have never seen even in my dreams doing an FTP transfer (with the WRAP boards). Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000 KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client. Our goal is to give you numbers you will see in real life. After all, your user is going to be ragging on you based on the FTP results they see. I am always amazed at how labels get applied. To call something a lower grade product because of a test method sure indicates a conclusion that needs to be re-examined. Results are what count, not how pretty you look or how good you sound. We have come pretty close to the goal of real world numbers, so I am not fazed at all by your lower grade product ranking. It is strange to have to lie to the customer to get a high grade product rating. Maybe we don't need that, and for the most part my users don't want it either. They don't want packet loss either. Most of them prefer to have the whole file delivered intact. Yes, but that really isn't a choice made or controled by the ISP, we deploy in a dynamic environment that changes. I remember when I was green in this industry, and rode my high horse, and stated, Links should be engineered for no packet loss from the beginning. In that is exactly what we did! But environments change. When a competitor points a Radio at your cell site from 300 yards away, packet loss occurs, nothing can be done about it on the spot. re-engineering must take place to illiminate packetloss. How much time will a WISP have to correct packet loss, before they lose their subscriber? I can tell you that Trango ARQ, bought me months of time to get around to making a re-engineering repair. The first step, is to realize the performance of a link, to know how severe it is, and what steps need to be made to correct it. Every tool in the toolbox, helps deal with running a better operation as a WISP. Regards, Lonnie On 4/12/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, Unfortuneately, not having UDP tests, does not allow accurate results. The reason is that UDP will show the point at which packet loss will occur, and at what percentage. Without that similar data, a TCP test is pointless. I see some people do TCP speed tests (a method other than FTP), and it goes full capacity minus the percent packet loss of a percent or so. But then when a FTP gets done performance drops to a few hundred kb. The reason is FTP slows itself down to attempt to reduce packetloss. IN many wireless systems, the packetloss stays consistent and can not be removed by reducing speed, therefore the speed just keeps going slower and slower and slower until it crawls. A TCP test also does not show consistency of a link, or sparatic slow down, as they all get averaged out over the time period of the test. If there are slowdown or hesitance on a wireless link using a UDP test, the packetloss is instantly seen. Doing a TCP test may show peek speed or average speed, but it does not show the ability to deliver consistent speed, what most companies need that are buying wireless to replace T1 lines
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Tom: My defense of Alvarion is pretty mild. They're definitely drifting down the innovation curve, not up. They're incredibly arrogant about not doing Wi-Fi despite the growing, impressive wins of Wi-Fi mesh vendors. They're not doing mesh, etc. They now are involved pretty deeply in the cellular and WiMAX industry, and that seems to have the vast majority of their corporate attention. But, in their (mild) defense, they're meeting the demands from their identified customers. (They don't seem to recognize what a trap this can be; apparently no one there has read The Innovator's Dilemma.) There are certainly WISPs that come really close to a working definition of carrier-grade; I didn't mean to imply that they didn't exist. Great points, all - yours was one of the best pieces of reading I've seen on the WISP-related lists in a long time - it elevated the SNR. Thanks, Steve On Apr 12, 2006, at 17:28, Tom DeReggi wrote: Steve, excellent points. except... (also see inline) By your definition of Carrier grade, I could argue that many WISPs that just so happen not to use Alvarion, may very well better meet the definition of carrier grade than the carriers themselves. One of the negatives about the Alvarion product is that they have fallen victom to the IBM syndrom. They try and be the best and standardize on that, but then they lock them selves into a box with a limited product, and get left behind as far as features and product enhancements. IBM lost the war to Clones, because Clones were able to innovate faster and deliver more competitive products sooner. Alvarion, has tried to full fill the role of carrier grade, probably better than any other manufacturer, from the perspective of the support level carrier demand, and quality of the manufacturing of the product. But ultimately, where does Alvarion stand technology wise? Are they leading? Thats debatable. For example: Alvarion still 1. Single Freq range per radio unit. 2. Single polarity per radio unit. Limitations even the cheapest manufacturers have overcome. Many businesses operational savings are being had by WISPs chosing other third party wireless gear, allowing their operations to be more carrier class. (less stock, fewer components needed per truck, easier ordering, lower pricing, consistent OS interfaces, etc). I'm not just targeting Alvarion in my complaint. How many manufactturers have taken advantage os new smart antenna technologies or FCC rules for higher power or new freq ranges? For companies like Alvarion to stay on top as a leading Carrier grade company, they are going to have to break out of the IBM mold, and start innovating quicker. They are starting to do that, by comming out with Wimax and 4.9Ghz gear quicker than other competitors in the space. WISPs pass. (Alvarion not required to do so) WISPs fail. 1 minute outages every month or so must be tolerated. Even Alvarion is known for occasional auto system reboots when harsh interence is encountered. WISPs pass and shine. But not aware of any Carrier Telco that passes that requirement. Less likely with Alvarion, as more models need to be stocked, to ahve all conceivable replacement models. WISPs pass. Telco's generally Fail. Not many Companies keep $100,000 switches on hand for quick replacement. Yes. But not aware of many Telcos that have a faster response time in their Tarrifs, than good local WISPs. WISPs put in a valient effort, but fail or barely pass. Telcos pass and shine, throwing millions of dollars away in over engineering. So although they shine, its responsible for the bankruptcy of 25 of the largest 29 Telcos through year 2001. WISPs pass. However, where Telcos shine, is 100s of commercial product are available to collect and store and track the statistics to backup SLA guarantees. WISPs can offer and fullfil the same SLAs maybe even better, but can they prove it? Every WISPs product manufacturer offers this. The only reason all WISPs may not have it, is their decission not to pay for it, as they don't have a huge staff to justify it, when they know it already. Telcos pass. Most WISP networks do not. Open Source, provides more options for improvements and impowers the WISP, but no guarantees are there that it will continue to be given or at what success rate. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc Budget being only difference, and WISP qualify for carrier better than ILEC in some cases. --- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
I've always looked at Alvarion as being carrier grade or as close as anything I've seen. And they are a fine company. George Steve Stroh wrote: Tom: My defense of Alvarion is pretty mild. They're definitely drifting down the innovation curve, not up. They're incredibly arrogant about not doing Wi-Fi despite the growing, impressive wins of Wi-Fi mesh vendors. They're not doing mesh, etc. They now are involved pretty deeply in the cellular and WiMAX industry, and that seems to have the vast majority of their corporate attention. But, in their (mild) defense, they're meeting the demands from their identified customers. (They don't seem to recognize what a trap this can be; apparently no one there has read The Innovator's Dilemma.) There are certainly WISPs that come really close to a working definition of carrier-grade; I didn't mean to imply that they didn't exist. Great points, all - yours was one of the best pieces of reading I've seen on the WISP-related lists in a long time - it elevated the SNR. Thanks, Steve On Apr 12, 2006, at 17:28, Tom DeReggi wrote: Steve, excellent points. except... (also see inline) By your definition of Carrier grade, I could argue that many WISPs that just so happen not to use Alvarion, may very well better meet the definition of carrier grade than the carriers themselves. One of the negatives about the Alvarion product is that they have fallen victom to the IBM syndrom. They try and be the best and standardize on that, but then they lock them selves into a box with a limited product, and get left behind as far as features and product enhancements. IBM lost the war to Clones, because Clones were able to innovate faster and deliver more competitive products sooner. Alvarion, has tried to full fill the role of carrier grade, probably better than any other manufacturer, from the perspective of the support level carrier demand, and quality of the manufacturing of the product. But ultimately, where does Alvarion stand technology wise? Are they leading? Thats debatable. For example: Alvarion still 1. Single Freq range per radio unit. 2. Single polarity per radio unit. Limitations even the cheapest manufacturers have overcome. Many businesses operational savings are being had by WISPs chosing other third party wireless gear, allowing their operations to be more carrier class. (less stock, fewer components needed per truck, easier ordering, lower pricing, consistent OS interfaces, etc). I'm not just targeting Alvarion in my complaint. How many manufactturers have taken advantage os new smart antenna technologies or FCC rules for higher power or new freq ranges? For companies like Alvarion to stay on top as a leading Carrier grade company, they are going to have to break out of the IBM mold, and start innovating quicker. They are starting to do that, by comming out with Wimax and 4.9Ghz gear quicker than other competitors in the space. WISPs pass. (Alvarion not required to do so) WISPs fail. 1 minute outages every month or so must be tolerated. Even Alvarion is known for occasional auto system reboots when harsh interence is encountered. WISPs pass and shine. But not aware of any Carrier Telco that passes that requirement. Less likely with Alvarion, as more models need to be stocked, to ahve all conceivable replacement models. WISPs pass. Telco's generally Fail. Not many Companies keep $100,000 switches on hand for quick replacement. Yes. But not aware of many Telcos that have a faster response time in their Tarrifs, than good local WISPs. WISPs put in a valient effort, but fail or barely pass. Telcos pass and shine, throwing millions of dollars away in over engineering. So although they shine, its responsible for the bankruptcy of 25 of the largest 29 Telcos through year 2001. WISPs pass. However, where Telcos shine, is 100s of commercial product are available to collect and store and track the statistics to backup SLA guarantees. WISPs can offer and fullfil the same SLAs maybe even better, but can they prove it? Every WISPs product manufacturer offers this. The only reason all WISPs may not have it, is their decission not to pay for it, as they don't have a huge staff to justify it, when they know it already. Telcos pass. Most WISP networks do not. Open Source, provides more options for improvements and impowers the WISP, but no guarantees are there that it will continue to be given or at what success rate. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc Budget being only difference, and WISP qualify for carrier better than ILEC in some cases. --- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Richard Goodin wrote: Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Richard, A word of advice on competitors. If they were there first, I would do my best to cooperate with them and coordinate channels and when You fire something up for the first time, You need to call and ask if it is causing any problems. In most cases, this goodwill goes a long way in letting them know You are a professional and NOT an idiot that worked at Wendy's drive thru taking orders yesterday, and now I are a WISP the next.. It seems as though I find another AP every other day that some moron threw up with a 1 watt amp and 15dBi omni hooked to their cable connection, and they are trying to sell it. I will also mention that sometimes no amount of goodwill seems to work, and while You may be a professional, Your competitors may not be?. If You have to switch channels on a daily basis to avoid interference?, then You need to go back to the drawing board and re-design Your system to be better than theirs.This DOESN'T mean that You should do anything illegal, just make a better network than theirs. If anything, THEY should be the ones having to switch around if they are non cooperative. I don't know why it is, but some people seem to think that there isn't enough customers to go around for everyone, when there really is. We have cable, DSL and 2 other WISP's besides myself, and it seems that none of us have a hard time signing up new customers. When I throw up another PoP, I scan to see what channels are in use, and how I can best avoid their systems. When I put in a new backhaul last year using SmartBridges Nexus radios, I called as soon as they were up to see if I had caused any problems to my competitors tower that was less than 1/3 of a mile away. These radios do a consistant 15Mb using 2.4Ghz and I had no idea how bad they would stand on the spectrum to achieve that. As it turns out, I had caused no problems because I turned the power down and used high gain antennas so that I didn't spray RF all over the place. I still called them to see, and if I would have caused a problem, I would have gone back to
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Travis, it's been awhile, but I think we got almost 40megs on the built in star tcp test across 533 5gig PtP link. Let me find the screen captures.I'm not positive. Right now all my wars are running at 5MHz and 10MHz channel spacing, unless theyare talking to wrap boards. George Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. Since Canopy hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll mention it. You really can't go wrong with a canopy installation. It works, even in the presence of noise that would kill other systems. We swapped a dying (due to interference) Trango system with a canopy system well over a year ago and haven't looked back. As customers on our existing 802.11b network have problems we just swap them to Canopy. Some here will probably mention canopy's abusive spectrum use. Yes, Motorola uses a very agressive modulation which both provides for incredible interference robustness, but unfortunately doesn't play very well with others. Systems with marginal link budget will fail when put in the presence of a motorola radio. I have heard this referred to as the 500 pound gorilla approach - I.E. where does a 500 pound gorilla set? Anywhere he wants to. I find it hard to see this as a disavantage to the Canopy operator. After all this is business, and you need to make decisions which improve your bottom line. One more thing... you need to be very careful about FCC certification of systems. Many of the systems which people put together themselves are not legal in the eyes of the FCC. In short, buying a radio from vendor A and pairing it with an antenna from vendor B may or may not be legal, even if the EIRP limit is not exceeded. Plus, you will have vendors (distributors mostly) which will lie to you about whether or not a given pair is legal. Currently many WISP's are doing things which are definitely not legal under the rules, and count on the FCC's continued non-enforcement of the part-15 bands as part of their business plan. As being an Amateur Radio operator and seeing what happens when the FCC decides to actually pursue enforcement in a band, I wouldn't want to tie my continued business survival to illegal equipment. -forrest -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
I have installed my first MT system (RB532 w/daughterboard) and am happy with it but using it only as an ethernet router at this point. It seems to perform better than the Cisco L3 switch (C4840G) we replaced. But I have not used the Mikrotik for an AP or PtP links. What about Mikrotik performance channel spacing? Mark Nash Network Engineer UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: George [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:59 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Attached is a screen capture from the original 4 port 533 war boards in a 10MHz mode running a PtP shot. Notice the rate says 27 rather than 54. This is the VX platform based on VX works. Lonnie abandoned that and is back to Linux George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
As a former Canopy user, I would like to point out a couple of issues not mentioned here. 1) Canopy is limited to vertical polarity in PTMP deployments. Trango and many other systems can be deployed in horizontal polarity, pretty much avoiding any Canopy in the area. 2) Canopy systems will be more robust in comparison to other systems deployed at the same antenna gain and polarity, and they will also coexist nicely with other Canopy systems if they are all running GPS sync on the access points. HOWEVER, non-synced Canopy causes other Canopy systems all kinds of problems, and other types of systems will take a Canopy system down if the other system has higher gain and runs on the same path. Canopy will run with 3db of signal to noise separation, which is more robust than 802.11b for example which needs 5-6db - but that doesn't make it immune to noise. There are situations where the poor antenna design of the Canopy ends up getting more noise and will run worse than a better engineered 802.11b system. It is easy to build a 2000lb elephant (legally, I will add) that will kick the 500lb gorilla's butt. Been there, done that. I'm glad I don't have to deal with Canopy any more. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Forrest W Christian wrote: Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. Since Canopy hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll mention it. You really can't go wrong with a canopy installation. It works, even in the presence of noise that would kill other systems. We swapped a dying (due to interference) Trango system with a canopy system well over a year ago and haven't looked back. As customers on our existing 802.11b network have problems we just swap them to Canopy. Some here will probably mention canopy's abusive spectrum use. Yes, Motorola uses a very agressive modulation which both provides for incredible interference robustness, but unfortunately doesn't play very well with others. Systems with marginal link budget will fail when put in the presence of a motorola radio. I have heard this referred to as the 500 pound gorilla approach - I.E. where does a 500 pound gorilla set? Anywhere he wants to. I find it hard to see this as a disavantage to the Canopy operator. After all this is business, and you need to make decisions which improve your bottom line. One more thing... you need to be very careful about FCC certification of systems. Many of the systems which people put together themselves are not legal in the eyes of the FCC. In short, buying a radio from vendor A and pairing it with an antenna from vendor B may or may not be legal, even if the EIRP limit is not exceeded. Plus, you will have vendors (distributors mostly) which will lie to you about whether or not a given pair is legal. Currently many WISP's are doing things which are definitely not legal under the rules, and count on the FCC's continued non-enforcement of the part-15 bands as part of their business plan. As being an Amateur Radio operator and seeing what happens when the FCC decides to actually pursue enforcement in a band, I wouldn't want to tie my continued business survival to illegal equipment. -forrest -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Replies inline below: Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? There are so many options here that this could be a difficult question to answer without a great deal more understanding in what you want to do. Here is what I do: You should have some Wifi based gear for your general purpose Internet customer. Having Wifi around is so inexpensive that I think it is mandatory to have some form of it available any place you serve broadband. It is like having water at a restaurant, you just have to have it. It just makes sense when it costs so little to have it there. Sadly the best Wifi solutions available do not have 100% FCC compliance. There are some that do though. Tranzeo is a good example. Look at Tranzeo for your Wifi based gear needs. If cost is a significant factor then I would look at Tranzeo, Trango and possibly Canopy for your meat and potatoes fixed broadband. Know that these systems are not considered to be carrier grade and they have limitations. I have used Trango for years with very good value for the money and still think you can have a good system using Trango. I am guessing Tranzeo is just as good and has some extra speed added. I am not a personal fan of Canopy but I know many out there who are and I am sure they have their successes and can prove a good value for the money. With that said I have reasons to not like Canopy as is my right. I am speaking for myself and choose not to use Motorola products in my network. In 900 MHz I use Waverider. This should be used primarily in places where trees and other obstructions make it hard to deliver broadband. Where you are located this does not sound like a problem. Waverider builds an extremely solid solution for broadband delivery. I understand from others that Trango and Canopy are solid in this space also. I have not used them but I have no reason to doubt them. I know Alvarion has a 900 MHz system but I have not used it nor have I spoken to others who have much experience with Alvarion's 900 MHz solutions. 900 MHZ is probably not a requirement for you unless it would be just to avoid interference in other wireless bands. I just received (in the last hour) a shipment from Alvarion. I am going to start migrating my 5 GHz Trango over to Alvarion BreezeAccess VL Product line. I did this for a number of reasons. I have heard for years from people who have built multi-million dollar businesses in the wireless industry that Alvarion is the best. I have always regarded Alvarion as a leader in this industry but I have also never thought it was worth the added expense. I have changed my mind. I have had a great deal of loss of equipment due to lightning and other failures. It gets frustrating at each rainy season to start spending money like mad to replace bad gear. The reliability of Alvarion is attractive to me. I have spoken to many who see years of reliable service from VL gear. I want that. I want to have extremely reliable networks. I want to take my network up to a higher standard of performance. I intend to expand my wireless network to cover a much larger area and serve many times more people than I do now. I find myself running out of capacity on my Trango links regularly these days. The Alvarion gear offers a great deal more bandwidth and packets per second delivery than anything else I have seen. Alvarion VL is a carrier grade FCC legal delivery system for broadband and I want that. I think my network will be worth more money if the day ever comes that I would sell my business. I am not looking to sell my business but I would have to be a fool not to consider the possibility that someday an offer may be made that I would not walk away from. If that day comes I want a system that will bring the highest price on the market. I believe Alvarion will hold its value better and make my business worth more money than any other solutions out there. Think about where you are now and where you want to be in the next 5 years, 10 years, 15 years. If you do then the answer(s) will be made for you as to which platform(s) to choose for your network. I wish you all the best and I hope you will consider going to http://signup.wispa.org/ and applying for membership in this organization. We work our tails off to help WISP operators regarding policy, technical,
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
John Scrivner: Sadly the best Wifi solutions available do not have 100% FCC compliance. There are some that do though. Tranzeo is a good example. Look at Tranzeo for your Wifi based gear needs. Tranzeo is 100% FCC legal? I've been looking for the certs... Jason -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Might I inquire as to where the dishes can be had for $40? On 4/10/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
I sure thought I saw certs once on their site. I guess maybe you could call them and ask for the URL to their FCC certs? If you see this then passing those along here would sure be nice. Thanks, Scriv Jason Wallace wrote: John Scrivner: Sadly the best Wifi solutions available do not have 100% FCC compliance. There are some that do though. Tranzeo is a good example. Look at Tranzeo for your Wifi based gear needs. Tranzeo is 100% FCC legal? I've been looking for the certs... Jason -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
To clarify, I was looking specifically for AP's that were certified for 120deg sectors. I Searched the FCC database and couldn't find anything about the Tranzeos. YMMV, however. Can anyone clear this up? A link? Jason John Scrivner wrote: I sure thought I saw certs once on their site. I guess maybe you could call them and ask for the URL to their FCC certs? If you see this then passing those along here would sure be nice. Thanks, Scriv Jason Wallace wrote: John Scrivner: Sadly the best Wifi solutions available do not have 100% FCC compliance. There are some that do though. Tranzeo is a good example. Look at Tranzeo for your Wifi based gear needs. Tranzeo is 100% FCC legal? I've been looking for the certs... Jason -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
John Scrivner wrote: I sure thought I saw certs once on their site. I guess maybe you could call them and ask for the URL to their FCC certs? If you see this then passing those along here would sure be nice. Tranzeo in the past has played fast and loose with certificates besides what they actually ship. For example, they had a cert for the low power radio and the smallest panel, that they were trying to pass off on all of their gear, even their highest power radio combined with the biggest panel. It looks like they're getting better, but whether or not they are really 100% certified is hard to say. -forrest -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Canopy will run with 3db of signal to noise separation, which is more robust than 802.11b For signal levels typically found in deployed equipment this is not true, nor has it ever been true. The Canopy 3dB C/I is measured at stronger signal than typical deployment (unless all your SMs have 20dB or more excess signal). Canopy C/I is pretty much the same as all other technologies I'm aware of at anywhere from typical to minimum signal levels. This of course omits the high constellation modulations which we all know requires significantly higher C/I. Rich - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP As a former Canopy user, I would like to point out a couple of issues not mentioned here. 1) Canopy is limited to vertical polarity in PTMP deployments. Trango and many other systems can be deployed in horizontal polarity, pretty much avoiding any Canopy in the area. 2) Canopy systems will be more robust in comparison to other systems deployed at the same antenna gain and polarity, and they will also coexist nicely with other Canopy systems if they are all running GPS sync on the access points. HOWEVER, non-synced Canopy causes other Canopy systems all kinds of problems, and other types of systems will take a Canopy system down if the other system has higher gain and runs on the same path. Canopy will run with 3db of signal to noise separation, which is more robust than 802.11b for example which needs 5-6db - but that doesn't make it immune to noise. There are situations where the poor antenna design of the Canopy ends up getting more noise and will run worse than a better engineered 802.11b system. It is easy to build a 2000lb elephant (legally, I will add) that will kick the 500lb gorilla's butt. Been there, done that. I'm glad I don't have to deal with Canopy any more. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Forrest W Christian wrote: Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. Since Canopy hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll mention it. You really can't go wrong with a canopy installation. It works, even in the presence of noise that would kill other systems. We swapped a dying (due to interference) Trango system with a canopy system well over a year ago and haven't looked back. As customers on our existing 802.11b network have problems we just swap them to Canopy. Some here will probably mention canopy's abusive spectrum use. Yes, Motorola uses a very agressive modulation which both provides for incredible interference robustness, but unfortunately doesn't play very well with others. Systems with marginal link budget will fail when put in the presence of a motorola radio. I have heard this referred to as the 500 pound gorilla approach - I.E. where does a 500 pound gorilla set? Anywhere he wants to. I find it hard to see this as a disavantage to the Canopy operator. After all this is business, and you need to make decisions which improve your bottom line. One more thing... you need to be very careful about FCC certification of systems. Many of the systems which people put together themselves are not legal in the eyes of the FCC. In short, buying a radio from vendor A and pairing it with an antenna from vendor B may or may not be legal, even if the EIRP limit is not exceeded. Plus, you will have vendors (distributors mostly) which will lie to you about whether or not a given pair is legal. Currently many WISP's are doing things which are definitely not legal under the rules, and count on the FCC's continued non-enforcement of the part-15 bands as part of their business plan. As being an Amateur Radio operator and seeing what happens when the FCC decides to actually pursue enforcement in a band, I wouldn't want to tie my continued business survival to illegal equipment. -forrest -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpus. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web sitehttp://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 09:15To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPSo... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes thatGeorge was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and evenseems to improve signal quality.Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 08:09To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPGuys;These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISPoperator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, andsomeone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected byconventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channelspacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These otherguys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do notneed.Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches.I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes.One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over theplace. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed anomni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customersand I'm happier.The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new warplatform.GeorgeTravis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds ofcustomers per sector.TravisMicroservRick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has thatcpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begindelivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built acouple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750.My questions:What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want tokeep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. Myenvironment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.Lee --WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006--No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006--WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu’s. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Im using a standard RB532, IP conn-track off, I am using the pacwireless outdoor enclosures or the MTI pocket antennas SR5 cards, nstream enabled, framer policy dynamic size, limit-3200 is default 4000 works a little better but have not tested w/ voip Routing is faster than bridging cpu is definitely an issue at 30Mbps I will be getting a outdoor 1ghz+ system to test which is doing 40Mbps and 80Mbps I believe w/ Turbo Lots of option, 5mhz, 10mhz, 20mhz or 40mhz channels, possibility of using 2 separate 20mhz links and load-balancing them for the 60Mbps to 80Mbps Plus you could go nstream2 and setup FDX link w/ either dual pol dish or 2 antennas. Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpus. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web sitehttp://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 09:15To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPSo... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes thatGeorge was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and evenseems to improve signal quality.Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 08:09To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPGuys;These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISPoperator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, andsomeone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected byconventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channelspacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These otherguys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do notneed.Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches.I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes.One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over theplace. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed anomni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customersand I'm happier.The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new warplatform.GeorgeTravis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds ofcustomers per sector.TravisMicroservRick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has thatcpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begindelivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
I use a lot of different hardware from Trango, Karlnet, Proxim, and mikrotik polling systems generally perform better than non-polling gps sync may scale even better When I first used the trango 900 series I liked having the simple design and very easy install unlike karlnet. But I have had issues w/ firmware, all my APs randomly reboot as well as sus. The RB532/MT setup works (the MMCX on the SR5 and SR2 is nice, never reboots great throughput however some assembly is required but it only takes a few minutes to screw the board into the enclosure, the ECS-RJ-45 from pacwireless makes a nice external rj45 jack and connect the pigtail then add antenna Having the 2nd antenna port on the rb532 could be very beneficial although I generally like my PTP Links to be on separate hardware than my PTMP, but I do have some 5.8ghz PTP links into a dual rb532, 2nd port is SR2 for wifi I know that trango is running MT on some of the hd mesh dardware, looks like it could even be the rb532 board (not sure) Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpus. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web sitehttp://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 09:15To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPSo... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes thatGeorge was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and evenseems to improve signal quality.Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 08:09To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPGuys;These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISPoperator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, andsomeone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected byconventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channelspacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These otherguys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do notneed.Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches.I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes.One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over theplace. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed anomni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customersand I'm happier.The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new warplatform.GeorgeTravis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds ofcustomers per sector.TravisMicroservRick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Dan, I have talked with many people (including Butch Evans that is the MT consultant) and he has never seen anything over 21Mbps with the RB532. I have the exact configuration you have described running on a 9 mile link and 17 mile link. With the 17 mile link, I have MT routers on either side of the ptp link with the RB532's (running at 330Mhz by the way) and I have never seen more than 21Mbps doing transfers both directions at the same time. Are you sure you are doing TCP and not UDP when you run the bandwidth test? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I’m using a standard RB532, IP conn-track off, I am using the pacwireless outdoor enclosures or the MTI pocket antennas… SR5 cards, nstream enabled, framer policy dynamic size, limit-3200 is default 4000 works a little better but have not tested w/ voip Routing is faster than bridging – cpu is definitely an issue at 30Mbps – I will be getting a outdoor 1ghz+ system to test which is doing 40Mbps and 80Mbps I believe w/ Turbo Lots of option, 5mhz, 10mhz, 20mhz or 40mhz channels, possibility of using 2 separate 20mhz links and load-balancing them for the 60Mbps to 80Mbps Plus you could go nstream2 and setup FDX link w/ either dual pol dish or 2 antenna’s. Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu’s. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Lonnie, Is that TCP or UDP? Travis Microserv Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
It is TCP. We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never be seen by a customer doing an FTP download. We are looking at building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in future. I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100 km of repeater distances. The shot is split in half with mountain shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to the POP in each town. We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP. It is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios. I have pasted a speed test from the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride. Both are Linux systems with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth control. Also I have the traceroute to show the hops. lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx rx rate: 2286 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) lon-home:~/staros # lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1 traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 192.168.250.10 0.430 ms 0.401 ms 0.496 ms 2 10.10.48.254 1.655 ms 1.447 ms 1.185 ms 3 10.10.227.254 2.686 ms 1.965 ms 5.428 ms 4 10.10.12.4 5.469 ms 3.250 ms 4.501 ms 5 10.10.47.253 4.946 ms 4.415 ms 3.581 ms 6 10.10.51.254 6.077 ms 6.472 ms 8.063 ms 7 10.14.99.254 12.615 ms * 5.777 ms 8 10.10.29.1 6.569 ms 7.295 ms 7.686 ms lon-home:~/staros # Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, Is that TCP or UDP? Travis Microserv Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will - so where did they go wrong with Canopy? Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has trouble sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John? Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
That is very impressive... :) Travis Microserv Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: It is TCP. We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never be seen by a customer doing an FTP download. We are looking at building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in future. I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100 km of repeater distances. The shot is split in half with mountain shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to the POP in each town. We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP. It is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios. I have pasted a speed test from the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride. Both are Linux systems with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth control. Also I have the traceroute to show the hops. lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx rx rate: 2286 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit) lon-home:~/staros # lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1 traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 192.168.250.10 0.430 ms 0.401 ms 0.496 ms 2 10.10.48.254 1.655 ms 1.447 ms 1.185 ms 3 10.10.227.254 2.686 ms 1.965 ms 5.428 ms 4 10.10.12.4 5.469 ms 3.250 ms 4.501 ms 5 10.10.47.253 4.946 ms 4.415 ms 3.581 ms 6 10.10.51.254 6.077 ms 6.472 ms 8.063 ms 7 10.14.99.254 12.615 ms * 5.777 ms 8 10.10.29.1 6.569 ms 7.295 ms 7.686 ms lon-home:~/staros # Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, Is that TCP or UDP? Travis Microserv Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data. Lonnie On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another wireless list. What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures? Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpu's. I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot
RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Travis, I have a StarOS PTP link using the 533mhz WAR boards that get up to 33Mbps (TCP). Thats using CM9 atheros cards and 2 PacWireless Dishes. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web sitehttp://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 09:15To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPSo... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes thatGeorge was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and evenseems to improve signal quality.Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 08:09To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPGuys;These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISPoperator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, andsomeone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected byconventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channelspacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These otherguys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do notneed.Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches.I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes.One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over theplace. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed anomni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customersand I'm happier.The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new warplatform.GeorgeTravis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds ofcustomers per sector.TravisMicroservRick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has thatcpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begindelivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built acouple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750.My questions:What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want tokeep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. Myenvironment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.Lee --WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006--No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006--WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Chad, Based on your post, I just purchased a couple 533mhz boards with CM9 cards from Lonnie. :) Travis Microserv Chad Halsted wrote: Travis, I have a StarOS PTP link using the 533mhz WAR boards that get up to 33Mbps (TCP). Thats using CM9 atheros cards and 2 PacWireless Dishes. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Hi, Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum? Travis Microserv Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site http://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP So... Who makes them?, how much? Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even seems to improve signal quality. Cheers, P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Goodin Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP Guys; These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not need. Lee Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Qty 30 (last I heard, I don't use them) Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They are like Timex watches. I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni. Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes. One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so. Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers and I'm happier. The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well. Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war platform. George Travis Johnson wrote: That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of customers per sector. Travis Microserv Rick Smith wrote: that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ? Brian Rohrbacher wrote: If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper. Richard Goodin wrote: I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router is a Cisco 1750. My questions: What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. My environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings. Lee -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
