Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
That is a great point Tom, I definitely agree that there is a [huge] difference between a large wisp and a roll up. Don't get me wrong, Digis had plenty of rollin up goin for them; however, when I was an installer at Digis we installed over 900 fixed-point customers in one month (all on Canopy), and that was even during a rough Rocky Mountain winter month, January '07. Keep in mind that we only had about 10 installers as well. Most of these new customers came from our 'Crazy' referral program: refer 5 friends get FIVE years of internet for FREE! This was accomplished in a cable dominant market as well THE largest fiber-to-the-home municipal deployment in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IProvo). I don't care how big your investor's pockets are or what equipment is being used, that shows a lot about Digis as a company. I was there, and it was more about processes than anything else. It wasn't about new vans/trucks, it was scheduling smarter to avoid wasted travel time. It wasn't about aggressive marketing and sales, it was about providing better service so our customers would sell for us. As employees, we never saw the money side of things and we actually cut a lot of our expenses, JAB gave us the confidence that we were something worth investing in and we wanted to prove them right. I saw Digis grow firsthand from 1,500 to 25,000 customers in less than two years and am more than happy to answer any questions off-list regarding my experience there... I would go off on how Powercode helped create, complete, and maintain these numbers, but I don't feel comfortable doing that at least until we're officially a WISPA vendor member in the next couple weeks. Then you'll get a nice little WISPA sponsored advertisement telling you all about it :) (And yes, I am definitely calling out Avansu and Demarc on abusing this list to self-promote and help themselves rather than helping the WISP community as a whole) Happy Holidays! Austin W. Product Manager Powercode 801.701.6205 www.powercode.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy. However, it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp and a roll up. Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a Large company of one product line. Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion. Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner companies. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I have to say, it had to be pretty exciting being a part of a company that was accomplishing such successful growth. I can tell you first hand, its not easy to grow. When someone is doing it well, they are clearly doing multiple things right. I'm sure Powercode was one of them. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Austin Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:48 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds That is a great point Tom, I definitely agree that there is a [huge] difference between a large wisp and a roll up. Don't get me wrong, Digis had plenty of rollin up goin for them; however, when I was an installer at Digis we installed over 900 fixed-point customers in one month (all on Canopy), and that was even during a rough Rocky Mountain winter month, January '07. Keep in mind that we only had about 10 installers as well. Most of these new customers came from our 'Crazy' referral program: refer 5 friends get FIVE years of internet for FREE! This was accomplished in a cable dominant market as well THE largest fiber-to-the-home municipal deployment in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IProvo). I don't care how big your investor's pockets are or what equipment is being used, that shows a lot about Digis as a company. I was there, and it was more about processes than anything else. It wasn't about new vans/trucks, it was scheduling smarter to avoid wasted travel time. It wasn't about aggressive marketing and sales, it was about providing better service so our customers would sell for us. As employees, we never saw the money side of things and we actually cut a lot of our expenses, JAB gave us the confidence that we were something worth investing in and we wanted to prove them right. I saw Digis grow firsthand from 1,500 to 25,000 customers in less than two years and am more than happy to answer any questions off-list regarding my experience there... I would go off on how Powercode helped create, complete, and maintain these numbers, but I don't feel comfortable doing that at least until we're officially a WISPA vendor member in the next couple weeks. Then you'll get a nice little WISPA sponsored advertisement telling you all about it :) (And yes, I am definitely calling out Avansu and Demarc on abusing this list to self-promote and help themselves rather than helping the WISP community as a whole) Happy Holidays! Austin W. Product Manager Powercode 801.701.6205 www.powercode.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy. However, it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp and a roll up. Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a Large company of one product line. Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion. Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner companies. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
There are companies that make it their business to sell market data. If it was not accurate they would not still be in business. Heck, I can probably sample 80% of all WISPs in the US in one week with two people and two phones. WISPS are not hesitant to talk about their technology and you can look at websites and guess at coverage maps and sizes. Moreover, I get calls on a regular basis my market research firms wanting to know details. I share. They give an NDA, I give data. You can go by FCC data too (assuming everyone is reporting like they are supposed to do). I have a large rolodex for AF that would be a good basis for a sample if I decided to do one. I think I can independently verify the market data if there was some reason for me to do so. But when Mot makes semi-public pronouncements of having over 50% of the market in this sarbanes-oxley environment, you can laugh all you want but to dismiss is folly. BTW, Canopy is large enough to actually move the stock price of Mot. Canopy revenue is supporting many of the folks in the handset division. You can wish they will sell or scrap all you want, but I doubt you will get your wish this xmas. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Sorry but this comment makes me laugh that you can throw out a number like this when the wise people that do statistics can't even come to a true conclusion how many wisps and other unlicensed operators there are out there. To state these numbers as well with as many privately owned manufacturers and distributors there are out there selling unlicensed equipment I personally wouldn't dare throw out numbers like that so casually like it was THE truth. Sure Canopy got a great product and have a big market space. But in the big scope on the Moto radar Canopy is a very small market and Moto got their status downgraded to junk by SP this week. If they really start hurting I do not doubt seeing them hesitate for 2second to scrap or sell their Canopy line. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:25:37 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Digis was 100% Canopy. I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the purchase. We have 5000+ all Canopy. Mot has more than 50% of the US market. So the other 50% is made up of Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at your not that far off... Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they bought... Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of them. Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband. All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's part of the network). Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you? Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I thought I heard a few years ago that the Canopy division was actually losing money? I would think that would be one of the first divisions to get sold off if it's not as profitable as the others. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Eje, I know you don't work closely with Motorola... but I interact with an employee over there at least once a week... often times more. The handset division is killing Motorola, this is public knowledge. Until the split occurs and they sell off the division (which they have also made that intention public) I don't see Motorola as a whole looking good as a company. Motorola though obviously realizes the revenue that the Wi4 portfolio is generating (i.e. wireless broadband gear) and has increased spending on the product line. They have done some semi-big changes in the channel to increase sales... its obvious they are committed to the product... even though the total revenue might be a decimal point on the big Motorola balance sheet... Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Sorry but this comment makes me laugh that you can throw out a number like this when the "wise" people that do statistics can't even come to a true conclusion how many wisps and other unlicensed operators there are out there. To state these numbers as well with as many privately owned manufacturers and distributors there are out there selling unlicensed equipment I personally wouldn't dare throw out numbers like that so casually like it was THE truth. Sure Canopy got a great product and have a big market space. But in the big scope on the Moto radar Canopy is a very small market and Moto got their status downgraded to junk by SP this week. If they really start hurting I do not doubt seeing them hesitate for 2second to scrap or sell their Canopy line. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: "Chuck McCown - 3" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:25:37 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Digis was 100% Canopy. I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the purchase. We have 5000+ all Canopy. Mot has more than 50% of the US market. So the other 50% is made up of Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc. - Original Message - From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at your not that far off... Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they bought... Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of them. Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband. All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's part of the network). Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you? Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: "Tom DeReggi" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I know of quite a few non Canopy networks. Among my consulting clients, neighbors and other associates, I know of Rapid Communications - 2000+ StarOS/Tranzeo R-Com - 4000+ StarOS/Tranzeo/Trango/Deliberant Action Communications - 4000+ Cisco (they have a little bit of Canopy) OIBW - 2500+ StarOS MVN - 2000+ StarOS There are a lot of other providers out there with similarly large networks on Mikrotik or StarOS.In more rural areas, these systems will far outperform Canopy in price/performance and coverage area - mostly due to antenna and polarity flexibility. I've been building in some more population dense areas with StarOS and 10mhz channels in 2.4 and 5ghz, with NS5 radios as CPE and that has gone extremely well so far. Having an $89 CPE that will go up to 16meg with 5/10/20mhz channels, software controllable polarity and an external antenna connector is pretty impressive as far as I'm concerned. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com 3-dB Networks wrote: Comments inline... Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. With the exception of Matt Larsens operation (although I knew his last one much better :-), I really have no extensive knowledge of any of these networks, so I really can't argue about them. What I can point out though, is I can think of that many Canopy WISP's that are that large. So while Canopy might not dominate the market, it very well could (underline underline italics) have the largest market share. Obviously I have no data to back that up, its my personal observation from my perch out here in Colorado... Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. I don't think I meant to come off as they owned the market, but they are a big player. I don't even know what would happen if we added in the international market... You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. Can't argue with that. Earthlink really screwed up that part of the market... although I would say the gear is still at a reasonable price all things considered. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. No argument here from me. We actually resell Aperto 3.65 because we see how strong of a play they have there where Motorola has no presence. But AKAIK there has been no 5,000 sub 3.65 deployments (heck I would doubt there has even been any 1,000 sub deployments yet) so its hard to say where the band will end up. Motorola will have a strong position in the TVWS spectrum (which I personally believe could redefine the WISP industry), and Motorola does dominate the 2.5GHz WiMax band (at least from the last report on I saw on Broadband reports). And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. That wasn't my argument. The WISP in question is now owned by JAB, who has standardized on Canopy. They also deployed a lot of 5.2GHz, which is now as far as I know no longer available
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. We had many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP. Our WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo network in 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it). So while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason. My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth much anymore) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Indeed leasing is hard to get. I haven't tried recently and maybe I will this spring, but it was easier for me to get a revolving line of credit at my bank (and later a non-revolving line of credit) from my bank than to get a lease on anything. Some lessors will only work with certain brands of equipment, while others will let you purchase anything (Mikrotik parts). - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:46 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I don't question the value of Leasing for a second. I just think that it is to hard to get Leasing. WISPs should not be considered any more HIGH risk than any other business. In today's economy WISPs are doing better than many other industries, and the demand is still growing daily. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hi, Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry about do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that customer and instead can focus on get as many customers installed as quickly as possible. Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing. Travis Microserv Steve Barnes wrote: I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :) And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. We had many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP. Our WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo network in 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it). So while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason. My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth much anymore) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 su
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
But between 1 and 1000 subs what were your bandwidth packages and what was your competition? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :) And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. We had many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP. Our WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo network in 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it). So while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason. My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth much anymore) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-) And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that has 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on Charles about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I understand the point he is trying to make). There are reasons that the big WISP's are generally big, and I think half of that has to do with factors outside of their control (population density, geography, DSL/Cable penetration, etc.). Mesa was very lucky to have many of those things working in our favor, but I think we knew what we were doing to (well at least about half of the time!). Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :) And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. We had many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP. Our WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo network in 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it). So while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason. My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth much anymore) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Yes, we have over 5,000 wireless subs and no Canopy radios on our entire network. :) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-) And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that has 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on Charles about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I understand the point he is trying to make). There are reasons that the big WISP's are generally big, and I think half of that has to do with factors outside of their control (population density, geography, DSL/Cable penetration, etc.). Mesa was very lucky to have many of those things working in our favor, but I think we knew what we were doing to (well at least about half of the time!). Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :) And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. We had many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP. Our WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo network in 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it). So while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason. My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth much anymore) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>From 1 to 1000 subs we were deploying Lucent 900mhz Wavelan cards in PC's and running LMR-400 to an external antenna (1997). We then switched to 2.4ghz Lucent using 3Com bridges with PCMCIA cards and still running LMR-400. We were charging $500 for install. We had cable and DSL for competition. We were charging $50/month for a 1Mbps service (which was really more like 500kbps service). Today, we are charging $99 installation and $29.95 for 512k, $39.95 for 1Mbps, $49.95 for 1.5Mbps, etc. We now have cable, DSL, 2.5ghz licensed WiMax and two other Canopy WISP's in our area. We are still doing 100+ installs per month. Travis Microserv Josh Luthman wrote: But between 1 and 1000 subs what were your bandwidth packages and what was your competition? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :) And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. We had many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP. Our WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo network in 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it). So while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason. My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth much anymore) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Travis, hoy many people do you staff ? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Yes, we have over 5,000 wireless subs and no Canopy radios on our entire network. :) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-) And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that has 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on Charles about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I understand the point he is trying to make). There are reasons that the big WISP's are generally big, and I think half of that has to do with factors outside of their control (population density, geography, DSL/Cable penetration, etc.). Mesa was very lucky to have many of those things working in our favor, but I think we knew what we were doing to (well at least about half of the time!). Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :) And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. We had many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP. Our WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo network in 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it). So
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
From 1 to 1000 subs we were deploying Lucent 900mhz Wavelan cards in PC's and running LMR-400 to an external antenna (1997). We then switched to 2.4ghz Lucent using 3Com bridges with PCMCIA cards and still running LMR-400. We were charging $500 for install. We had cable and DSL for competition. We were charging $50/month for a 1Mbps service (which was really more like 500kbps service). Today, we are charging $99 installation and $29.95 for 512k, $39.95 for 1Mbps, $49.95 for 1.5Mbps, etc. We now have cable, DSL, 2.5ghz licensed WiMax and two other Canopy WISP's in our area. We are still doing 100+ installs per month. What gear are you using today? Has the recent downturn in the economy hurt you any? We found that the Canopy gear scales better due to the GPS sync. In past with Trango and other gear we would fight self interference on 900 quite a bit. With over 20 tower sites its hard to coordinate. Apparently you have not had those problems. Been 3 years since we deployed anything but Canopy. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Hi, We have 80+ tower sites. We have Trango deployed on all of them (5.8ghz, 2.4ghz and 900mhz mixed) and Mikrotik deployed on about 65 of them. So we still install Trango, but also install Mikrotik. Yes, you do have to be very careful to not self interfere and to coordinate everything, especially if you have to make any channel changes (we have seen our 2.4ghz radios cause self-interference at 50 miles apart). Travis Microserv Matt wrote: From 1 to 1000 subs we were deploying Lucent 900mhz Wavelan cards in PC's and running LMR-400 to an external antenna (1997). We then switched to 2.4ghz Lucent using 3Com bridges with PCMCIA cards and still running LMR-400. We were charging $500 for install. We had cable and DSL for competition. We were charging $50/month for a 1Mbps service (which was really more like 500kbps service). Today, we are charging $99 installation and $29.95 for 512k, $39.95 for 1Mbps, $49.95 for 1.5Mbps, etc. We now have cable, DSL, 2.5ghz licensed WiMax and two other Canopy WISP's in our area. We are still doing 100+ installs per month. What gear are you using today? Has the recent downturn in the economy hurt you any? We found that the Canopy gear scales better due to the GPS sync. In past with Trango and other gear we would fight self interference on 900 quite a bit. With over 20 tower sites its hard to coordinate. Apparently you have not had those problems. Been 3 years since we deployed anything but Canopy. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Hi, We currently have 28 people: 3 owners (that handle management issues, employee hiring, accounting, tower work, network design, server management, etc.) 6 wireless installers 1 wireless dispatcher (signal checks, CPE deployment, etc.) 1 wireless supervisor (2nd level support, etc) 7 admin people (billing, telephone calls, collections, etc.) 4 networking people (on-site billable) 1 network admin (server support, domain hosting support, Cisco VPN support, etc.) 5 technical support (2.5 on staff at any given time) Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Travis, hoy many people do you staff ? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Yes, we have over 5,000 wireless subs and no Canopy radios on our entire network. :) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-) And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that has 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on Charles about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I understand the point he is trying to make). There are reasons that the big WISP's are generally big, and I think half of that has to do with factors outside of their control (population density, geography, DSL/Cable penetration, etc.). Mesa was very lucky to have many of those things working in our favor, but I think we knew what we were doing to (well at least about half of the time!). Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :) And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "3-dB Networks" mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on Karl
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Comments inline... Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. With the exception of Matt Larsens operation (although I knew his last one much better :-), I really have no extensive knowledge of any of these networks, so I really can't argue about them. What I can point out though, is I can think of that many Canopy WISP's that are that large. So while Canopy might not dominate the market, it very well could (underline underline italics) have the largest market share. Obviously I have no data to back that up, its my personal observation from my perch out here in Colorado... Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. I don't think I meant to come off as they owned the market, but they are a big player. I don't even know what would happen if we added in the international market... You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. Can't argue with that. Earthlink really screwed up that part of the market... although I would say the gear is still at a reasonable price all things considered. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. No argument here from me. We actually resell Aperto 3.65 because we see how strong of a play they have there where Motorola has no presence. But AKAIK there has been no 5,000 sub 3.65 deployments (heck I would doubt there has even been any 1,000 sub deployments yet) so its hard to say where the band will end up. Motorola will have a strong position in the TVWS spectrum (which I personally believe could redefine the WISP industry), and Motorola does dominate the 2.5GHz WiMax band (at least from the last report on I saw on Broadband reports). And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. That wasn't my argument. The WISP in question is now owned by JAB, who has standardized on Canopy. They also deployed a lot of 5.2GHz, which is now as far as I know no longer available. I think the decision was made for them either way... it probably wasn't a choice. But the fact remains, once they switch to Canopy I don't think there will be one larger WISP in Colorado who does not have Canopy in their network. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Alvarion has that reputation for sure. I have seen very little of their gear deployed though (admittingly I wasn't in the industry during the Breezemax days...) Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, I'd argue that point all day long... Trango/Canopy pricing is about dead even every time I have seen a quote on Trango... and I don't think they have been ahead of the Canopy product line in years... your next statement backs that up. and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps capacities, therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into winning business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and doesn't want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that can do it at near the same price point. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Travis, You left out sales. Does that mean that you are at the point where you do them all by just taking orders? :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hi, We currently have 28 people: 3 owners (that handle management issues, employee hiring, accounting, tower work, network design, server management, etc.) 6 wireless installers 1 wireless dispatcher (signal checks, CPE deployment, etc.) 1 wireless supervisor (2nd level support, etc) 7 admin people (billing, telephone calls, collections, etc.) 4 networking people (on-site billable) 1 network admin (server support, domain hosting support, Cisco VPN support, etc.) 5 technical support (2.5 on staff at any given time) Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Travis, hoy many people do you staff ? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Yes, we have over 5,000 wireless subs and no Canopy radios on our entire network. :) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-) And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that has 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on Charles about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I understand the point he is trying to make). There are reasons that the big WISP's are generally big, and I think half of that has to do with factors outside of their control (population density, geography, DSL/Cable penetration, etc.). Mesa was very lucky to have many of those things working in our favor, but I think we knew what we were doing to (well at least about half of the time!). Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :) And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Digis was 100% Canopy. I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the purchase. We have 5000+ all Canopy. Mot has more than 50% of the US market. So the other 50% is made up of Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at your not that far off... Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they bought... Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of them. Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband. All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's part of the network). Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you? Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps capacities, therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into winning business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and doesn't want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that can do it at near the same price point. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I also think, recognizing the past accurately, is not the same thing as predicting the future. The future holds some very exciting possibilities. The value proposition of Canopy 430 series last mile combined with Trango Apex distribution and NLOS TVWS where applicable, is a very exciting value proposition to take WISPs to the next level. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Comments inline... Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. With the exception of Matt Larsens operation (although I knew his last one much better :-), I really have no extensive knowledge of any of these networks, so I really can't argue about them. What I can point out though, is I can think of that many Canopy WISP's that are that large. So while Canopy might not dominate the market, it very well could (underline underline italics) have the largest market share. Obviously I have no data to back that up, its my personal observation from my perch out here in Colorado... Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. I don't think I meant to come off as they owned the market, but they are a big player. I don't even know what would happen if we added in the international market... You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. Can't argue with that. Earthlink really screwed up that part of the market... although I would say the gear is still at a reasonable price all things considered. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. No argument here from me. We actually resell Aperto 3.65 because we see how strong of a play they have there where Motorola has no presence. But AKAIK there has been no 5,000 sub 3.65 deployments (heck I would doubt there has even been any 1,000 sub deployments yet) so its hard to say where the band will end up. Motorola will have a strong position in the TVWS spectrum (which I personally believe could redefine the WISP industry), and Motorola does dominate the 2.5GHz WiMax band (at least from the last report on I saw on Broadband reports). And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. That wasn't my argument. The WISP in question is now owned by JAB, who has standardized on Canopy. They also deployed a lot of 5.2GHz, which is now as far as I know no longer available. I think the decision was made for them either way... it probably wasn't a choice. But the fact remains, once they switch to Canopy I don't think there will be one larger WISP in Colorado who does not have Canopy in their network. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Mot has more than 50% of the US market Is that based on amount of gear sold, or amount of gear still deployed? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Digis was 100% Canopy. I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the purchase. We have 5000+ all Canopy. Mot has more than 50% of the US market. So the other 50% is made up of Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at your not that far off... Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they bought... Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of them. Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband. All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's part of the network). Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you? Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps capacities, therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into winning business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and doesn't want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that can do it at near the same price point. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Units sold. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Mot has more than 50% of the US market Is that based on amount of gear sold, or amount of gear still deployed? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Digis was 100% Canopy. I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the purchase. We have 5000+ all Canopy. Mot has more than 50% of the US market. So the other 50% is made up of Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at your not that far off... Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they bought... Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of them. Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband. All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's part of the network). Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you? Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps capacities, therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into winning business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and doesn't want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that can do it at near the same price point. Tom DeReggi
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
That's why I pointed out that three of the companies they rolled up were large Canopy WISP's in of themselves. If Digis was 15,000 Canopy Subscribers... than that makes probably 26,000 or so of that amount representative from Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband that is Canopy (Taking out about a 1,000 for the combined Tranzeo customers in the network, although that number is probably pretty high). Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy. However, it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp and a roll up. Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a Large company of one product line. Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion. Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner companies. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps capacities, therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into winning business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and doesn't want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that can do it at near the same price point. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I'd agree, except with the Trango Apex part... I don't think I need to rehash my opinion there :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I also think, recognizing the past accurately, is not the same thing as predicting the future. The future holds some very exciting possibilities. The value proposition of Canopy 430 series last mile combined with Trango Apex distribution and NLOS TVWS where applicable, is a very exciting value proposition to take WISPs to the next level. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Comments inline... Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. With the exception of Matt Larsens operation (although I knew his last one much better :-), I really have no extensive knowledge of any of these networks, so I really can't argue about them. What I can point out though, is I can think of that many Canopy WISP's that are that large. So while Canopy might not dominate the market, it very well could (underline underline italics) have the largest market share. Obviously I have no data to back that up, its my personal observation from my perch out here in Colorado... Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. I don't think I meant to come off as they owned the market, but they are a big player. I don't even know what would happen if we added in the international market... You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. Can't argue with that. Earthlink really screwed up that part of the market... although I would say the gear is still at a reasonable price all things considered. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. No argument here from me. We actually resell Aperto 3.65 because we see how strong of a play they have there where Motorola has no presence. But AKAIK there has been no 5,000 sub 3.65 deployments (heck I would doubt there has even been any 1,000 sub deployments yet) so its hard to say where the band will end up. Motorola will have a strong position in the TVWS spectrum (which I personally believe could redefine the WISP industry), and Motorola does dominate the 2.5GHz WiMax band (at least from the last report on I saw on Broadband reports). And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. That wasn't my argument. The WISP in question is now owned by JAB, who has standardized on Canopy. They also deployed a lot of 5.2GHz, which
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Judging by their web site, JAB has no more than 6 customers. Yes, that's a jab (pun intended) at their web site. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:34 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy. However, it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp and a roll up. Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a Large company of one product line. Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion. Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner companies. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps capacities, therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into winning business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and doesn't want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that can do it at near the same price point. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Yeah they don't want the parent company to gain too much attention I think... With that said the Skybeam website (the Colorado operation...) is pretty bad too Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Judging by their web site, JAB has no more than 6 customers. Yes, that's a jab (pun intended) at their web site. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:34 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy. However, it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp and a roll up. Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a Large company of one product line. Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion. Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner companies. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps capacities, therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into winning business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and doesn't want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that can do it at near the same price point. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Not entirely... that's not a true statement. One of the WISP's they purchased had a great deal of Trango installed. Granted, they may be replacing it as they go, but I know for a fact they are not 100% Canopy. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: "Tom DeReggi" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment "are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.", that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for "small operators." To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps capacities, therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into winning business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and doesn't want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that can do it at near the same price point. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I'll confirm that. that is the WISP I was talking about earlier (but as I said I think the pressure for them is outside of their control to be fair) Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:18 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Not entirely... that's not a true statement. One of the WISP's they purchased had a great deal of Trango installed. Granted, they may be replacing it as they go, but I know for a fact they are not 100% Canopy. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps capacities, therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into winning business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and doesn't want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that can do it at near the same price point. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Yes we haven't had any sales people for 3+ years. We were never able to find one that could even pay for themselves after 6 months (meaning bring in enough new business to pay their salary). So, we don't have any inside or outside sales people. If I could find one that was any good, I'm sure they could make a lot of money just selling to businesses in our markets. With the fiber ring we have around our main city, we can put businesses on a redundant fiber ring for $500 total install cost to them and then whatever speed they want. It's a really easy sale, but again, sales people seem lacking in our area. Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: Travis, You left out sales. Does that mean that you are at the point where you do them all by just taking orders? :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hi, We currently have 28 people: 3 owners (that handle management issues, employee hiring, accounting, tower work, network design, server management, etc.) 6 wireless installers 1 wireless dispatcher (signal checks, CPE deployment, etc.) 1 wireless supervisor (2nd level support, etc) 7 admin people (billing, telephone calls, collections, etc.) 4 networking people (on-site billable) 1 network admin (server support, domain hosting support, Cisco VPN support, etc.) 5 technical support (2.5 on staff at any given time) Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Travis, hoy many people do you staff ? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Yes, we have over 5,000 wireless subs and no Canopy radios on our entire network. :) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-) And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that has 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on Charles about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I understand the point he is trying to make). There are reasons that the big WISP's are generally big, and I think half of that has to do with factors outside of their control (population density, geography, DSL/Cable penetration, etc.). Mesa was very lucky to have many of those things working in our favor, but I think we knew what we were doing to (well at least about half of the time!). Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :) And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I guess we need to define large... :-) You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all use Canopy... Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
At ISPCon, JAB said they had 50,000 subs so does that mean only 50% is Canopy? ;) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: That's why I pointed out that three of the companies they rolled up were large Canopy WISP's in of themselves. If Digis was 15,000 Canopy Subscribers... than that makes probably 26,000 or so of that amount representative from Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband that is Canopy (Taking out about a 1,000 for the combined Tranzeo customers in the network, although that number is probably pretty high). Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy. However, it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp and a roll up. Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a Large company of one product line. Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion. Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner companies. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Chuck McCown - 3" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: "Tom DeReggi" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment "are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.", that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for "small operators." To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
LOL this would be the point where I have to shut up and not say more than I already have. but there is a lot of smaller Canopy WISP's in there too :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds At ISPCon, JAB said they had 50,000 subs so does that mean only 50% is Canopy? ;) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: That's why I pointed out that three of the companies they rolled up were large Canopy WISP's in of themselves. If Digis was 15,000 Canopy Subscribers... than that makes probably 26,000 or so of that amount representative from Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband that is Canopy (Taking out about a 1,000 for the combined Tranzeo customers in the network, although that number is probably pretty high). Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy. However, it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp and a roll up. Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a Large company of one product line. Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion. Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner companies. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Sorry but this comment makes me laugh that you can throw out a number like this when the wise people that do statistics can't even come to a true conclusion how many wisps and other unlicensed operators there are out there. To state these numbers as well with as many privately owned manufacturers and distributors there are out there selling unlicensed equipment I personally wouldn't dare throw out numbers like that so casually like it was THE truth. Sure Canopy got a great product and have a big market space. But in the big scope on the Moto radar Canopy is a very small market and Moto got their status downgraded to junk by SP this week. If they really start hurting I do not doubt seeing them hesitate for 2second to scrap or sell their Canopy line. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:25:37 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Digis was 100% Canopy. I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the purchase. We have 5000+ all Canopy. Mot has more than 50% of the US market. So the other 50% is made up of Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at your not that far off... Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they bought... Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of them. Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband. All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's part of the network). Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you? Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider market. What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban WISPs. They use Aperto. What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of Alvarion later on. What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of Trango at one point. What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT primarilly a Canopy shop. Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond. But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most all of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to now buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap frog game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application on this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets. And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, my Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for small operators. To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, and favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I am on B only. We have very noisy 2.4 and I have been told adding G to the AP and CPE just increases the noise. Is that Wrong? What will G do to my Distance customers. Steve Barnes -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling 20+ megs... now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it. I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 mbit. A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that much different from A and A works just fine for me. Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
G is not very good on handling lot of noisy. I have bit similar problem as you in one area. Customer experience gets much better with the unit set in B mode. Higher throughput and more stable connection. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 05:57:41 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I am on B only. We have very noisy 2.4 and I have been told adding G to the AP and CPE just increases the noise. Is that Wrong? What will G do to my Distance customers. Steve Barnes -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling 20+ megs... now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it. I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 mbit. A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that much different from A and A works just fine for me. Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. We had many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP. Our WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo network in 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it). So while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason. My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth much anymore) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
XR5's are not prism chipset they are atheros chipsets as well. 6th gen Atheros to be more exact. All Ubiquiti products are Atheros base as well so are all MikroTiks radio cards as well. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 01:10:43 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds XR5's are Prism for my APs R52's are Atheros for my CPEs I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else have this? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling 20+ megs... now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it. I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 mbit. A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that much different from A and A works just fine for me. Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
All Ubiquiti cards up to this point, anyway, are Atheros. The difference is that with Atheros cards you can use Mikrotik's N-Streme, which can almost double capacity. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:10 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds XR5's are Prism for my APs R52's are Atheros for my CPEs I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else have this? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling 20+ megs... now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it. I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 mbit. A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that much different from A and A works just fine for me. Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Hi, Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry about do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that customer and instead can focus on get as many customers installed as quickly as possible. Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing. Travis Microserv Steve Barnes wrote: I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Congratulations on the new digs Eje! Sorry we couldn't make the grand opening. I knew you back when it really just was Mom and Pop. It's exciting to see how far you've come in such a short time. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds XR5's are not prism chipset they are atheros chipsets as well. 6th gen Atheros to be more exact. All Ubiquiti products are Atheros base as well so are all MikroTiks radio cards as well. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 01:10:43 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds XR5's are Prism for my APs R52's are Atheros for my CPEs I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else have this? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling 20+ megs... now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it. I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 mbit. A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that much different from A and A works just fine for me. Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
In small business (especially growing startups that are still looking to reach that critical mass of break-even / profitability, which, I generally see in the WISP space at about 1000 customers or $50k / month in total revenue) cash is king If you look at statistics, over 80% of all small business failures occur in highly profitable / fast growth situations that simply run out of cash It doesn't matter how many subscribers you have signed up for installation -- if you can't make payroll (which is generally the #1 expense of any business) / pay your bandwidth / tower / whatever bills, you're done -Charles -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, 3-dB Networks wrote: I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx The article on this page is VERY informative. I highly encourage anyone who is a WISP to read it. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Travis, Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers? -RickG On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
The CPE is our property and it is just part of the monthly service. We don't charge extra for it (because without it, they can't have service). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers? -RickG On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: "Steve Barnes" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you service". I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I have to agree on this. Even though finding leasing as a small ISP is _**VERY**_ difficult, it just makes sense. I have a few deals that I am cooking right now with 6 figure numbers. I was pretty shocked with these big numbers when my finance director pointed out that over 10 years, a loan on that amount is only $2 per sub/month. Done. This is how the larger players do it. They leverage 1-5 per sub/month for financing of equipment etc for build-outs. Then they can do what they do. If you get to 1000, or 5000 then you are easily able to finance upgrades and roll-outs in the 200-500K range! (I am not a finance guy, I build these crazy operations so please do not do financial analysis on the WAG numbers above!) ;) ryan Travis Johnson wrote: Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Same here so we're in sync on that. As far as leasing, I leased my initial allotment of equipment but the new sub take rate has been very unpredictable so didnt feel comfortable enough to add to the monthly lease payment. Therefore, I've been purchasing additional CPE as I add new subs. This has allowed me to grow while getting an immeadiate expense deduction on the new equipment to write off on my new revenue. Where am I going wrong? -RickG On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The CPE is our property and it is just part of the monthly service. We don't charge extra for it (because without it, they can't have service). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers? -RickG On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Rick, I guess the one thing I need to mention was since we started leasing, we have always had enough installs to cover the equipment we are buying. I would never buy equipment in the "hopes" that you will have customers to use it. We have done 100+ installs per month for many years, so we buy 250 radios at a time. They usually get us by for about 3-4 months (because of other people canceling their service and we pick up the old radio and re-install it). You aren't going wrong, and it sounds like your way is working for you just fine. Really leasing only works if you can get the economies of scale of buying 250-500 radios at a time, so you get the true cost savings on the price of the radios to offset the extra cost of the interest on the lease. Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Same here so we're in sync on that. As far as leasing, I leased my initial allotment of equipment but the new sub take rate has been very unpredictable so didnt feel comfortable enough to add to the monthly lease payment. Therefore, I've been purchasing additional CPE as I add new subs. This has allowed me to grow while getting an immeadiate expense deduction on the new equipment to write off on my new revenue. Where am I going wrong? -RickG On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The CPE is our property and it is just part of the monthly service. We don't charge extra for it (because without it, they can't have service). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers? -RickG On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: "Steve Barnes" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you service". I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, StarOS, etc. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Steve, I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an article here about leasing that might change your mind. http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it allows you to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest, but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it better in the article. Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast. We had many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP. Our WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo network in 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it). So while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason. My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth much anymore) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I don't question the value of Leasing for a second. I just think that it is to hard to get Leasing. WISPs should not be considered any more HIGH risk than any other business. In today's economy WISPs are doing better than many other industries, and the demand is still growing daily. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hi, Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry about do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that customer and instead can focus on get as many customers installed as quickly as possible. Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing. Travis Microserv Steve Barnes wrote: I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
You would think that this would bring down the risk factor. -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* Tom DeReggi wrote: I don't question the value of Leasing for a second. I just think that it is to hard to get Leasing. WISPs should not be considered any more HIGH risk than any other business. In today's economy WISPs are doing better than many other industries, and the demand is still growing daily. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Hi, Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry about do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that customer and instead can focus on get as many customers installed as quickly as possible. Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing. Travis Microserv Steve Barnes wrote: I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. You still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the ROI takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co. Can you help me with that one. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Good one Steve !! I want to know too ! Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on every new customer. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 subscribers things will be a bit better. - Original Message - From: "Steve Barnes" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you service". I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling 20+ megs... now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it. I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 mbit. A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that much different from A and A works just fine for me. Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
XR5's are Prism for my APs R52's are Atheros for my CPEs I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else have this? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling 20+ megs... now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it. I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 mbit. A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that much different from A and A works just fine for me. Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment that is so often discussed on this list. I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch each penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to service the clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with 320 clients. The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn off the speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to achieve 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. What do you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you service. I was providing a solution. So this is what I have and I know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same boat. So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is everyone charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing is not readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. No Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge Verizon. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
