Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
We have a stipulation in our AUP when the customer signs the initial contract that prohibits maximizing their connection for a sustained period of time. We enforce a 3 strike rule then kick 'em off-line if violated. If they choose to go with another provider then good riddance. Let the competition deal with them. -Eric John J. Thomas wrote: I am going to be specific here What mechanism do you have in place to 'protect' your network from the person that downloads 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If you sold me a connection that was 256k for $39.99 I would feel that I have a right to use it as much as I want. I am not saying bit cap, I am saying tiered pricing. I am sure that most here can break their clients into 3 groups; 1. the people that rarely use their Internet, possibly 300-500 megabytes per month. 2. The average user that probably uses 2-5 Gigabytes per month. 3. The bandwidth hog that is using 20 Gigs plus per month and complains when their speed teest falls for 5 k bits per second. My argument is that ISPs need to have a mechanism to make the people in the last group either pay their fair share, or go somewhere else. John -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
I am going to be specific here What mechanism do you have in place to 'protect' your network from the person that downloads 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If you sold me a connection that was 256k for $39.99 I would feel that I have a right to use it as much as I want. I am not saying bit cap, I am saying tiered pricing. I am sure that most here can break their clients into 3 groups; 1. the people that rarely use their Internet, possibly 300-500 megabytes per month. 2. The average user that probably uses 2-5 Gigabytes per month. 3. The bandwidth hog that is using 20 Gigs plus per month and complains when their speed teest falls for 5 k bits per second. My argument is that ISPs need to have a mechanism to make the people in the last group either pay their fair share, or go somewhere else. John -Original Message- From: Sam Tetherow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 11:46 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing I'm sure much of this will already have been covered (been out for a couple of days). But since it was addressed to me Don't know the details of the truck driver story, but if it wasn't his responsibility all he needs to do is leave the truck blocking the loading dock and walk into the store and ask the manager to call his boss and they can get it sorted from there. As for the pickles, if Walmart decides all they want to pay for a gallon of pickles is 3.97 that is their right. No one is forcing anyone to sell at 3.97. The legislature of CA is costing CA millions of dollars each year, not Walmart. If the legislature wants to pick up the tab for workers who aren't insured by their employer that is their own fault. Are you going to complain about every other business in CA that doesn't insure their employees? A little bit of research on the internet will also fill me in about black helicopters and tinfoil hats... The trick is conveying to your customer what your plan is in terms that they understand. I'm in a primarily residential market and compete with DSL. The selling point of my service, is just that service. I still have to compete with Qwest pricing but I only have to be close on cost to speed and sell them on the service. It isn't that hard to sell service vs the phone company. But I have to disagree with everyone that is on the bitcap bandwagon. I understand fully the issues that come with p2p and streaming video but that is what is driving the internet today. I take pride in providing the internet to my customers and I want to provide the type of internet service I would expect from my connection. The internet is no longer about web pages and email it is about podcasts, video streams and downloaded movies and if we aren't ready to provide that type of service they we are just relagating ourselves to being the new dialup with 128K plans and draconian bandwidth policies. I don't see bit metering (paying by the bit not on a transfer rate) as being a billing model for the future because every other communication model is trending away from it and I doubt the customer will put up with it given a choice. Phone service is abandoning the per minute pricing for pricing plans which are tending toward unlimited minutes (mobile to mobile, home network, after hours). Also as more and more services migrate to the internet people are not going to want to worry about their bit caps. The idea of having to look at the file size of a netflix movie download and they try to figure out how much it is going to cost me to download (above the netflix cost) reminds me all to much of the old dailup days when we were paying by the minute. As a businessman you should be trying to squeeze every last dime out of your customers. The trick is to provide the service that will make them want to pay every last dime of it. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless John J. Thomas wrote: Sam, Walmart has made most of its money by screwing others. Truck driver makes delivery to Walmart ad unload pallets. Goes to have receiving sign for them. Receiving refuses to sign, and says that *after* the truck driver *unloads* the items off the pallets, then he will sign. This is NOT the truck drivers responsibility. Walmart decides that a Gallon jar of pickles shoud cost $3.97-*regardless* of whether the company can make 10 cents on that. Company sells $3.97 jar of pickles and goes bankrupt after that. Walmart is costing the State of California Millions of dollars each year just by telling its employees we won't give you that benefit, but if you go apply for State assistance, they will. A little bit of research on the Internet will show you to what degree they have gone to to screw others. If that is the way you want to do business, then so be it. Me, my family and anyone else I have influence over won't do business with you-period. You have to structure your pricing in a way that you can
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing There actually are some of us out here that don't have this luxury in our markets. My total market is approximately 3000 people (not households) and I have to go 45 miles in any direction to find another town with more than 80 people in it. I'm not saying this in a 'woe is me' tone, just stating a fact. Some of us operate in the well under 10,000 people areas where 'finding a higher ARPU customer' is not really a viable option. We have to be all things in order to have enough customers to pay the bills. The top 10% of my market would get me less than 100 customers and they would have an average income of less than $100K. As a slightly off-topic aside: (those that don't want to listen to my ramblings can safely stop here :) I do find the Walmart reference interesting. Since I have started this business I have tried to read as much as I can in terms of business, marketing and sales books. Having come from a purely tech background it astounds me how clueless I really was until I started a business. One of the things that I have struggled with is the price point vs service aspect of the business. Obviously being the cheapest option has it's sales advantages, especially in the residential best effort internet business. But as we all know, being the cheapest makes it a bit harder to pay the bills. When I read business and marketing books they all espouse the higher end customer is the better customer view. I understand this view, you have a valued customer who is willing to pay a reasonable price for quality service. You look at brands like Lexus and Bose and think, these are the people I need to be like. These companies have made millionaires. But what I find interesting is that companies like Walmart and McDonalds who do live in the quantity, not quality world have made billionaires. The trick seems to be, if you can somehow manages to be the cheapest and do it right you can make a boat load of money and it doesn't have to be at the expense of the customer. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Peter R. wrote: John J. Thomas wrote: But, the model will work if you bill by the bytes If Joe is paying $40 per month for 6 Gig and gets throttled at 6 Gig, then he has a disincentive for keeping going. If he is paying $40 for unlimited access, he has no reason to slow down. Charter cable is doing 10 meg down/1 meg up in some markets for like $99 per month, how can you compete with that? John Well, the reality is this: you can't compete with it. And why try? Why not move upstream to a larger ARPU customer? Cable ILEC can handle and deliver service to the masses cheaply - for now. But there is a segment of every population that needs more than the cheap dumb pipe attached to the cheap dumb support. That is the GAP. That is where the money is. That is where your market is. But it may mean selling beyond just a pipe. I've been preaching this for years - and clients that have listened - narrowed their focus; but the shotgun (marketing) away; have done well.. See articles here: http://www.rad-info.net/newsletters/walmart16.htm And there:http://www.rad-info.net/newsletters/winninger.htm Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. (813) 963-5884 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:38:55 +, John J. Thomas wrote I read an article once about this. What happens when Walmart can't drop prices any lower? Then their prices don't drop. What's confusing about that? Who foots the bill when Walmart employees get sick and go to the Emergency room? Who foots the bill when you or your children, or my children, or the guy across the street, or ANYONE goes to ER? That question is as irrelevant as it gets. Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
I cannot believe how many of you guys all decided that this thread could be extended into a lengthy diatribe about Wal-mart. I use these lists to learn and teach about the wireless industry and to help drive changes in policy and law. We have people from time to time who join this list to learn about our industry. I know of one guy who is working on a massive plan to work with WISPs to give us funding opportunities and other advantages. These guys leave here fast when their Inbox fills with unrelated multiple messages about Wal-mart, me toos, my gear is better than your gear, rants, etc.. We do have a place for this type of conversation though. It is also a free list and I highly recommend you guys subscribe to it. It is called [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can go here to subscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/chat On the chat list you can digress all the way to talking about what brand of underwear you buy at Wal-mart for all I care. The wireless@wispa.org list is supposed to be focused on wireless. Let's all keep it that way. Thank you, John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
My health insurance company that I pay thousands of dollars per year is who foots the bill when my family goes to the ER... not the tax payers. I think that was his point. Walmart is the largest private employer, yet a VERY small percentage of their workers have any benefits. So the concern is as Walmart continues to grow, so does the burden on the tax payers. Travis Microserv wispa wrote: On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:38:55 +, John J. Thomas wrote I read an article once about this. What happens when Walmart can't drop prices any lower? Then their prices don't drop. What's confusing about that? Who foots the bill when Walmart employees get sick and go to the Emergency room? Who foots the bill when you or your children, or my children, or the guy across the street, or ANYONE goes to ER? That question is as irrelevant as it gets. Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
You go John, I agree.. OH NO I just did a mee too! Ok really I did that on purpose to help John with his point. So what really is the point of this email? I just read an article from the AP that was re-printed in the Kansas City Star: http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/16567716.htm http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/16567716.htm that, to a poker player, is someone who is vulnerable but powerful, blinking. Politics are very much a part of our industry and causing obstuctions for our competition is as important to us as what Wireless equipment works best. Like John clearly stated it's not that we have to say what our feelings are about something but to represent something that could improve our ability to deliver service. The FCC and local governments are taking a completely 'winner takes all' position - to localize power so your town so you and your city council can require cable and telco to give incentive for use of right of way and exclusivity. This doesn't please the very Bush-like Kevin Martin who would federalize the whole country so he could have control if possible. All perks for local communities would be stripped and only the rights and needs of the biggest donor corporations met. oops did I accidently say political donors? If you are an ISP as well as a WISP this is certainly the time to push your local legislative body to include buy local provisions against outside mesh groups that could run you out of business, right of way access sharing requirements in franchises and other provisions like sharing pole use for wireless mesh networks. With the FCC, local government, cable and telco all pushing for their right to give you service for us not to insert ourselves into the battle and perhaps present the Public Interest perspective with our options of Wireless is to find our industry out in the cold when the dust settles and compromises have been made. I hope John doesn't relagate your need for political activity from any discussion list as their (WISPA) pledge when I joined this group is what interested me most. Without being part of the political process it doesn't really matter what gear we run because we will always be on the outside. Look at any bandwidth speed test, how often does it give the choice of Fixed Wireless? We could be that much of an outsider politically and that would mean that you have settled to always be a small player in the process. Well step aside we dont' all strive for underachievement and this group needs to cowboy-up to this rare time of political activity and take a strong role in the rights we are given and the recognition we need for the public to take us seriously and for us to make a few bucks in our little niche of the world. Forbes Mercy President - Washington Broadband, Inc. I cannot believe how many of you guys all decided that this thread could be extended into a lengthy diatribe about Wal-mart. I use these lists to learn and teach about the wireless industry and to help drive changes in policy and law. We have people from time to time who join this list to learn about our industry. I know of one guy who is working on a massive plan to work with WISPs to give us funding opportunities and other advantages. These guys leave here fast when their Inbox fills with unrelated multiple messages about Wal-mart, me toos, my gear is better than your gear, rants, etc.. We do have a place for this type of conversation though. It is also a free list and I highly recommend you guys subscribe to it. It is called [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can go here to subscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/chat http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/chat On the chat list you can digress all the way to talking about what brand of underwear you buy at Wal-mart for all I care. The wireless@wispa.org list is supposed to be focused on wireless. Let's all keep it that way. Thank you, John Scrivner President WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ winmail.dat-- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
I worded my original post incorrectly relating to the relevant topics for this list. Anything to do with promoting or improving the WISP industry fits within the scope of our Mission Statement in WISPA and would be relevant topics for discussion here. I would like to see more of the sensitive debates moved to our private list for operators only ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). The general public list here (wireless@wispa.org) is no place for us to air the debates of our strategies going forward, in my own personal opinion. It is pretty hard to play poker if you have your hand turned around facing the table for all to see. To be frank, I also have no desire to cater to the general public's interests involving the direction of this organization. Our membership interests (Principle WISPA Members in particular) should drive the agenda and political efforts of this organization. Our members should also reap most of the benefits of the organization's efforts. (Scriv on membership soapbox again) If you are a WISP and you cannot afford the 20 some odd bucks a month to be a paid member here then why should we bother helping? Sorry to sound so brash but the payment is minimal for what WISPA has to offer to the WISPs here. If you are not paid up then get your procrastinating derrier over to http://signup.wispa.org and pay your dues. 100% of the money raised is used to pay to help you. Your board does not get paid (even though a small payment is within the rights of the law). We work for free here. Please at least have the decency to send your small financial support to our efforts if you feel this organization is helping you in your business. Many of you, including Forbes, have made this step and I like to think that the more membership we have the more we can help you (exponentially). One of the first (very embarrassing things) I get asked by political types, vendors, investors, etc. is How many WISPs are part of WISPA? Well guess what guys. We know there are about 3000 to 5000 of you WISP operators out there and about 70 of you have the decency to pay up your dues in the only 501c6 Trade Association setup specifically to represent YOUR interests as WISP operators. I already share all my best information strictly on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] email list server which is for paid WISP members only. I want the deck stacked in the favor of the WISP (especially those who pay their dues). That is why we exist. We need to use our public list to show we are working to the benefit of the industry and we need to keep the best of what we do on our private list so that only those who are real (see http://signup.wispa.org for how to become real) members get the advantages of our work, our time and our dues. If this message angers you then pay your dues and you will have nothing to complain about. Scriv Forbes said: I hope John doesn't relagate your need for political activity from any discussion list as their (WISPA) pledge when I joined this group is what interested me most. Without being part of the political process it doesn't really matter what gear we run because we will always be on the outside. Scriv said: The wireless@wispa.org list is supposed to be focused on wireless. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
- Original Message - From: John J. Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing I read an article once about this. What happens when Walmart can't drop prices any lower? Who foots the bill when Walmart employees get sick and go to the Emergency room? John Uh, the same people who foot the bill when a McDonalds employee gets ill and goes to the ER? Or a Best Buy employee.. Or a Circuit City employee Or a contractor doing WISP installs -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
Why should ANY employer provide health care? You work, they give you money, end of story Travis Johnson wrote: My health insurance company that I pay thousands of dollars per year is who foots the bill when my family goes to the ER... not the tax payers. I think that was his point. Walmart is the largest private employer, yet a VERY small percentage of their workers have any benefits. So the concern is as Walmart continues to grow, so does the burden on the tax payers. Travis Microserv wispa wrote: On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:38:55 +, John J. Thomas wrote I read an article once about this. What happens when Walmart can't drop prices any lower? Then their prices don't drop. What's confusing about that? Who foots the bill when Walmart employees get sick and go to the Emergency room? Who foots the bill when you or your children, or my children, or the guy across the street, or ANYONE goes to ER? That question is as irrelevant as it gets. Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
Sam, Walmart has made most of its money by screwing others. Truck driver makes delivery to Walmart ad unload pallets. Goes to have receiving sign for them. Receiving refuses to sign, and says that *after* the truck driver *unloads* the items off the pallets, then he will sign. This is NOT the truck drivers responsibility. Walmart decides that a Gallon jar of pickles shoud cost $3.97-*regardless* of whether the company can make 10 cents on that. Company sells $3.97 jar of pickles and goes bankrupt after that. Walmart is costing the State of California Millions of dollars each year just by telling its employees we won't give you that benefit, but if you go apply for State assistance, they will. A little bit of research on the Internet will show you to what degree they have gone to to screw others. If that is the way you want to do business, then so be it. Me, my family and anyone else I have influence over won't do business with you-period. You have to structure your pricing in a way that you can successfully market. I have a problem with those people that say 512k unlimited $39.99 per month. Then, when you download a single movie, they cut your service. That is Dishonesty-period. If you tell your clients, 4 Gig for $39.99, then there is no issue. I'm sure MANY are going to jump in and tell me I'm wrong, and they certainly have a right to. At some point, this will have to be the way it works-you can't sell unlimited pipes for $39.99 per month, when you have to pay $100 or more per month-the economics are not there. I applaud Marlon for what he is doing, and I hope that he will review his pricing regularly. If he finds that he can drop the rates a bit, or adjust the limits upward, I'm sure his clients will appreciate it. They should also appreciate that fact that he isn't trying to squeeze every last dime from them. John Thomas -Original Message- From: Sam Tetherow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:49 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing There actually are some of us out here that don't have this luxury in our markets. My total market is approximately 3000 people (not households) and I have to go 45 miles in any direction to find another town with more than 80 people in it. I'm not saying this in a 'woe is me' tone, just stating a fact. Some of us operate in the well under 10,000 people areas where 'finding a higher ARPU customer' is not really a viable option. We have to be all things in order to have enough customers to pay the bills. The top 10% of my market would get me less than 100 customers and they would have an average income of less than $100K. As a slightly off-topic aside: (those that don't want to listen to my ramblings can safely stop here :) I do find the Walmart reference interesting. Since I have started this business I have tried to read as much as I can in terms of business, marketing and sales books. Having come from a purely tech background it astounds me how clueless I really was until I started a business. One of the things that I have struggled with is the price point vs service aspect of the business. Obviously being the cheapest option has it's sales advantages, especially in the residential best effort internet business. But as we all know, being the cheapest makes it a bit harder to pay the bills. When I read business and marketing books they all espouse the higher end customer is the better customer view. I understand this view, you have a valued customer who is willing to pay a reasonable price for quality service. You look at brands like Lexus and Bose and think, these are the people I need to be like. These companies have made millionaires. But what I find interesting is that companies like Walmart and McDonalds who do live in the quantity, not quality world have made billionaires. The trick seems to be, if you can somehow manages to be the cheapest and do it right you can make a boat load of money and it doesn't have to be at the expense of the customer. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Peter R. wrote: John J. Thomas wrote: But, the model will work if you bill by the bytes If Joe is paying $40 per month for 6 Gig and gets throttled at 6 Gig, then he has a disincentive for keeping going. If he is paying $40 for unlimited access, he has no reason to slow down. Charter cable is doing 10 meg down/1 meg up in some markets for like $99 per month, how can you compete with that? John Well, the reality is this: you can't compete with it. And why try? Why not move upstream to a larger ARPU customer? Cable ILEC can handle and deliver service to the masses cheaply - for now. But there is a segment of every population that needs more than the cheap dumb pipe attached to the cheap dumb support. That is the GAP. That is where the money is. That is where your market is. But it may mean selling beyond just a pipe. I've been
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
Actually, Walmart has made most of its money by providing the CONSUMER with what the CONSUMER wants. A truck driver has his responsibilities. If he is told he should unload his pallets - and that is not his job, the issue is with his employer, whoever agreed with walmart to have the driver unload the pallets. Many companies will mandate that the pallets be unloaded, it depends on the company. The pickles... The famous pickles. Got to love it. You tie the pickles with the bankruptcy, when every industry analyst, all the business mags, Vlasic themselves, all agree, Walmart or the pickle deal was not a critical factor in their bankruptcy. State assistance? What about the employees of the thousands of other companies in CA that don't make enough so they end up qualifiying for benefits from the state? Are they villians also? I did not see you mention them. Walmart fills only what the consumer wants. That is how they make money, by meeting those consumer needs/desires. When a customer wants an apple for ten cents, you don't fulfill those needs by offering an orange for twenty cents! Many of their vendors agree that although Walmart has been tough to deal with, that has only IMPROVED their business model, in dealing with all their customers! As a shareholder of Walmart, and as a consumer of Walmart, I expect no less. - Original Message - From: John J. Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing Sam, Walmart has made most of its money by screwing others. Truck driver makes delivery to Walmart ad unload pallets. Goes to have receiving sign for them. Receiving refuses to sign, and says that *after* the truck driver *unloads* the items off the pallets, then he will sign. This is NOT the truck drivers responsibility. Walmart decides that a Gallon jar of pickles shoud cost $3.97-*regardless* of whether the company can make 10 cents on that. Company sells $3.97 jar of pickles and goes bankrupt after that. Walmart is costing the State of California Millions of dollars each year just by telling its employees we won't give you that benefit, but if you go apply for State assistance, they will. A little bit of research on the Internet will show you to what degree they have gone to to screw others. If that is the way you want to do business, then so be it. Me, my family and anyone else I have influence over won't do business with you-period. You have to structure your pricing in a way that you can successfully market. I have a problem with those people that say 512k unlimited $39.99 per month. Then, when you download a single movie, they cut your service. That is Dishonesty-period. If you tell your clients, 4 Gig for $39.99, then there is no issue. I'm sure MANY are going to jump in and tell me I'm wrong, and they certainly have a right to. At some point, this will have to be the way it works-you can't sell unlimited pipes for $39.99 per month, when you have to pay $100 or more per month-the economics are not there. I applaud Marlon for what he is doing, and I hope that he will review his pricing regularly. If he finds that he can drop the rates a bit, or adjust the limits upward, I'm sure his clients will appreciate it. They should also appreciate that fact that he isn't trying to squeeze every last dime from them. John Thomas -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
The devil is in the details. I only sell unlimited connections over leased line connections. Everyone else signs our AUP and agrees to a maximum speed on their plan. We do not do this to be punitive either. We do it because you will go broke if you try to sell multiple customer connections per access point in any other way. Selling unlimited anything is opening yourself to failure in the residential broadband game. Scriv John J. Thomas wrote: Sam, Walmart has made most of its money by screwing others. Truck driver makes delivery to Walmart ad unload pallets. Goes to have receiving sign for them. Receiving refuses to sign, and says that *after* the truck driver *unloads* the items off the pallets, then he will sign. This is NOT the truck drivers responsibility. Walmart decides that a Gallon jar of pickles shoud cost $3.97-*regardless* of whether the company can make 10 cents on that. Company sells $3.97 jar of pickles and goes bankrupt after that. Walmart is costing the State of California Millions of dollars each year just by telling its employees we won't give you that benefit, but if you go apply for State assistance, they will. A little bit of research on the Internet will show you to what degree they have gone to to screw others. If that is the way you want to do business, then so be it. Me, my family and anyone else I have influence over won't do business with you-period. You have to structure your pricing in a way that you can successfully market. I have a problem with those people that say 512k unlimited $39.99 per month. Then, when you download a single movie, they cut your service. That is Dishonesty-period. If you tell your clients, 4 Gig for $39.99, then there is no issue. I'm sure MANY are going to jump in and tell me I'm wrong, and they certainly have a right to. At some point, this will have to be the way it works-you can't sell unlimited pipes for $39.99 per month, when you have to pay $100 or more per month-the economics are not there. I applaud Marlon for what he is doing, and I hope that he will review his pricing regularly. If he finds that he can drop the rates a bit, or adjust the limits upward, I'm sure his clients will appreciate it. They should also appreciate that fact that he isn't trying to squeeze every last dime from them. John Thomas -Original Message- From: Sam Tetherow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:49 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing There actually are some of us out here that don't have this luxury in our markets. My total market is approximately 3000 people (not households) and I have to go 45 miles in any direction to find another town with more than 80 people in it. I'm not saying this in a 'woe is me' tone, just stating a fact. Some of us operate in the well under 10,000 people areas where 'finding a higher ARPU customer' is not really a viable option. We have to be all things in order to have enough customers to pay the bills. The top 10% of my market would get me less than 100 customers and they would have an average income of less than $100K. As a slightly off-topic aside: (those that don't want to listen to my ramblings can safely stop here :) I do find the Walmart reference interesting. Since I have started this business I have tried to read as much as I can in terms of business, marketing and sales books. Having come from a purely tech background it astounds me how clueless I really was until I started a business. One of the things that I have struggled with is the price point vs service aspect of the business. Obviously being the cheapest option has it's sales advantages, especially in the residential best effort internet business. But as we all know, being the cheapest makes it a bit harder to pay the bills. When I read business and marketing books they all espouse the higher end customer is the better customer view. I understand this view, you have a valued customer who is willing to pay a reasonable price for quality service. You look at brands like Lexus and Bose and think, these are the people I need to be like. These companies have made millionaires. But what I find interesting is that companies like Walmart and McDonalds who do live in the quantity, not quality world have made billionaires. The trick seems to be, if you can somehow manages to be the cheapest and do it right you can make a boat load of money and it doesn't have to be at the expense of the customer. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Peter R. wrote: John J. Thomas wrote: But, the model will work if you bill by the bytes If Joe is paying $40 per month for 6 Gig and gets throttled at 6 Gig, then he has a disincentive for keeping going. If he is paying $40 for unlimited access, he has no reason to slow down. Charter cable is doing 10 meg down/1 meg up in some markets for like $99 per month
RE: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
Our company sells to US, European, and South American cable companies. Outside the US, we see that the dominant service plan is broadband with a byte cap. Inside the US that is rare probably due to the US having been the birthplace of the Internet and the widespread reverence for it as a system with universal deeply embedded into its concept...universal connectivity, universal access, universal usage for whatever you want and nobody can tell you what you can do with your connection. That also appears to be related to the widespread revulsion to the Telcos' proposal to have the ability to charge content/service sources to be available to their subscribers. I don't know if byte cap plans will make a dent in the market in this country at any time soon. However, the BitTorrent applications open thousands of TCP flows and often run 24 hours a day, unattended. That is causing a real problem for the providers. When they throttle down those guys, they get complaints because the users are often sophisticated enough to be able to measure it. Nevertheless, broadband providers are increasingly including references to abuse and consequences in their terms of service. Byte caps are also problematic...especially when most homes have multiple PCs and the kids are free to initiate one of these BitTorrent monsters to get movies and games while they're at school or asleep...without their parents understanding what's happening. Such households could easily reach almost any arbitrary byte cap very early within a billing cycle and cause significant resentment from the very folks that pay the bill. On the other hand, perhaps it's their responsibility to control what their kids do that can run up a bill. The parallel with kids and their family plan cell phone usage is a valuable lesson...except that there is often no competitive Internet broadband service that the parents can migrate to that would offer less risk (such as the cell plans that give kids a fixed bite at the apple every month). . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 3:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing The devil is in the details. I only sell unlimited connections over leased line connections. Everyone else signs our AUP and agrees to a maximum speed on their plan. We do not do this to be punitive either. We do it because you will go broke if you try to sell multiple customer connections per access point in any other way. Selling unlimited anything is opening yourself to failure in the residential broadband game. Scriv John J. Thomas wrote: Sam, Walmart has made most of its money by screwing others. Truck driver makes delivery to Walmart ad unload pallets. Goes to have receiving sign for them. Receiving refuses to sign, and says that *after* the truck driver *unloads* the items off the pallets, then he will sign. This is NOT the truck drivers responsibility. Walmart decides that a Gallon jar of pickles shoud cost $3.97-*regardless* of whether the company can make 10 cents on that. Company sells $3.97 jar of pickles and goes bankrupt after that. Walmart is costing the State of California Millions of dollars each year just by telling its employees we won't give you that benefit, but if you go apply for State assistance, they will. A little bit of research on the Internet will show you to what degree they have gone to to screw others. If that is the way you want to do business, then so be it. Me, my family and anyone else I have influence over won't do business with you-period. You have to structure your pricing in a way that you can successfully market. I have a problem with those people that say 512k unlimited $39.99 per month. Then, when you download a single movie, they cut your service. That is Dishonesty-period. If you tell your clients, 4 Gig for $39.99, then there is no issue. I'm sure MANY are going to jump in and tell me I'm wrong, and they certainly have a right to. At some point, this will have to be the way it works-you can't sell unlimited pipes for $39.99 per month, when you have to pay $100 or more per month-the economics are not there. I applaud Marlon for what he is doing, and I hope that he will review his pricing regularly. If he finds that he can drop the rates a bit, or adjust the limits upward, I'm sure his clients will appreciate it. They should also appreciate that fact that he isn't trying to squeeze every last dime from them. John Thomas -Original Message- From: Sam Tetherow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:49 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing There actually are some of us out here that don't have this luxury in our markets. My total market is approximately 3000 people (not households) and I have to go 45 miles in any direction to find another town
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
Blake Bowers wrote: The pickles... The famous pickles. Got to love it. You tie the pickles with the bankruptcy, when every industry analyst, all the business mags, Vlasic themselves, all agree, Walmart or the pickle deal was not a critical factor in their bankruptcy. Not sure about pickles, but I have heard the Rubbermaid story. Walmart, dropped Rubbermaid off at the door of bakruptcy. Popular story about the way they do business. All Walmart business practices do is give everyone an example of extreme agressiveness of those sharks out there. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:27:22 -0800, George Rogato wrote Blake Bowers wrote: You know, the only real difference between WalMart and most other retailers, is that what the manufacturer agrees to do, WalMart holds them to. Rubbermaid, Vlasic Pickles, Bicycle makers, the list goes on and on. All of them agreed to do X, Y, and Z and each found out they had agreed to do things they didn't know how to do, or could not do. Many companies agreed to sell to WalMart at less than their cost, and went broke trying to keep up with demand. WalMart is a huge market. They sell in 3 months what the next largest retailer (the second largest retailer, that is) in the world sells in a year. Walmart insists that prices must FALL, not rise, and that they must be competitive. Walmart's profit on some items is on the order of 1 to 5%, and those are not large items, either. They DO their part in passing on revenues to manufacturers. Nobody exists on slimmer margins than WalMart does. There's a trail of dead or damaged companies in WalMart's wake, but it wasn't Walmart that did it to them. It was their own greed or incompetence, when they were offered a chance at the largest retailer's shelf space in the world, and took it in terms they could NOT sustain. There's a lesson for all of us in that, in that we really SHOULD know our capabilities and have a plan to deal with both growth and competition. Can we handle success? Can we keep our word, do we know our own selves well enough to make our plans and stick to them with discipline? Will we promise what we can't deliver, if it appears to promise us growth? Every company that sells products to WalMart knows exactly what they're expected to do when they start out. Many think they can get concessions, or have unrealistic expectations. I spent quite a bit of time reading about this... And I resolved at that moment, no matter what the future, I resolve to know what I'm doing, where I'm going, and what I and my company can and cannot do. I sort of turned over a new leaf after reading and digesting. It was a good way to start 2007. Inspired by WalMart, no less. Hate them if you want, but I don't and can't. They're a breath of fresh air in a world of fudging, loose focus and blind ambition. They have an absolute resolute goal they have never wavered on, and that has always been the customer. WE need that kind of discipline and focus, too, as companies and individuals. NEver forget what we're here for. The pickles... The famous pickles. Got to love it. You tie the pickles with the bankruptcy, when every industry analyst, all the business mags, Vlasic themselves, all agree, Walmart or the pickle deal was not a critical factor in their bankruptcy. Not sure about pickles, but I have heard the Rubbermaid story. Walmart, dropped Rubbermaid off at the door of bakruptcy. Popular story about the way they do business. All Walmart business practices do is give everyone an example of extreme agressiveness of those sharks out there. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
Blake Bowers wrote: Actually, Walmart has made most of its money by providing the CONSUMER with what the CONSUMER wants. Walmart fills only what the consumer wants. That is how they make money, by meeting those consumer needs/desires. When a customer wants an apple for ten cents, you don't fulfill those needs by offering an orange for twenty cents! Actually, are they supplying what a consumer wants? Or simply offering low prices? Don't confuse the 2. Many people want cheaper - or the perception of cheaper. When you are selling commodities, it usually does come down to price. Yet Target sells many of the same items and has a much higher check out average per customer. Customer service, neatness, variety, and plain ole English are all things missing from Walmart, IMO. At what point does that model - of dropping prices - stop working? (I have noticed that Walmart is often not the cheapest.) And this model only works when you can capture market share. - Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
I just read the USA Today article from 2003. It says the namebrand items provide 15% profit while the private label items provide 30% profit. Those are HUGE margins for a company now doing a billion a day in sales. I agree they have gotten where they are because they can operate on very low margins and are very efficient. This is the reason all the small mom and pop places have gone out of business... they can't figure out how to operate on less than 50% margins... or they don't want to. Travis Microserv wispa wrote: On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:27:22 -0800, George Rogato wrote Blake Bowers wrote: You know, the only real difference between WalMart and most other retailers, is that what the manufacturer agrees to do, WalMart holds them to. Rubbermaid, Vlasic Pickles, Bicycle makers, the list goes on and on. All of them agreed to do X, Y, and Z and each found out they had agreed to do things they didn't know how to do, or could not do. Many companies agreed to sell to WalMart at less than their cost, and went broke trying to keep up with demand. WalMart is a huge market. They sell in 3 months what the next largest retailer (the second largest retailer, that is) in the world sells in a year. Walmart insists that prices must FALL, not rise, and that they must be competitive. Walmart's profit on some items is on the order of 1 to 5%, and those are not large items, either. They DO their part in passing on revenues to manufacturers. Nobody exists on slimmer margins than WalMart does. There's a trail of dead or damaged companies in WalMart's wake, but it wasn't Walmart that did it to them. It was their own greed or incompetence, when they were offered a chance at the largest retailer's shelf space in the world, and took it in terms they could NOT sustain. There's a lesson for all of us in that, in that we really SHOULD know our capabilities and have a plan to deal with both growth and competition. Can we handle success? Can we keep our word, do we know our own selves well enough to make our plans and stick to them with discipline? Will we promise what we can't deliver, if it appears to promise us growth? Every company that sells products to WalMart knows exactly what they're expected to do when they start out. Many think they can get concessions, or have unrealistic expectations. I spent quite a bit of time reading about this... And I resolved at that moment, no matter what the future, I resolve to know what I'm doing, where I'm going, and what I and my company can and cannot do. I sort of turned over a new leaf after reading and digesting. It was a good way to start 2007. Inspired by WalMart, no less. Hate them if you want, but I don't and can't. They're a breath of fresh air in a world of fudging, loose focus and blind ambition. They have an absolute resolute goal they have never wavered on, and that has always been the customer. WE need that kind of discipline and focus, too, as companies and individuals. NEver forget what we're here for. The pickles... The famous pickles. Got to love it. You tie the pickles with the bankruptcy, when every industry analyst, all the business mags, Vlasic themselves, all agree, Walmart or the pickle deal was not a critical factor in their bankruptcy. Not sure about pickles, but I have heard the "Rubbermaid" story. Walmart, dropped Rubbermaid off at the door of bakruptcy. Popular story about the way they do business. All Walmart business practices do is give everyone an example of extreme agressiveness of those sharks out there. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:06:21 -0700, Travis Johnson wrote I just read the USA Today article from 2003. It says the namebrand items provide 15% profit while the private label items provide 30% profit. Those are HUGE margins for a company now doing a billion a day in sales. I don't know where those numbers come from, but I know that some of thier stuff sells for definitely less than those markups. Perhaps some sells for more and makes up the difference. ' I really don't see how you can call 15% huge. It's very small. Nobody I know of that's doing well in the retail business of commodity items is selling things at those margins. Remember, just because the markup is 15%, doesn't mean the actual profit is. Overall, Walmart isn't making huge percentage profits on the gross sales. I agree they have gotten where they are because they can operate on very low margins and are very efficient. This is the reason all the small mom and pop places have gone out of business... they can't figure out how to operate on less than 50% margins... or they don't want to. Well, for my $38 account, I know I have less than $10 fixed expenses, including all the leases, etc. The only thing not factored into that is equipment replacement costs, as I really don't know what that's going to be long-term. I really do expect to make a 50 to 70% profit on sales in the future. And that's not going to make me rich in any sense of the word. Different market, different service, different universe. :) Travis Microserv wispa wrote: On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:27:22 -0800, George Rogato wrote Blake Bowers wrote: You know, the only real difference between WalMart and most other retailers, is that what the manufacturer agrees to do, WalMart holds them to. Rubbermaid, Vlasic Pickles, Bicycle makers, the list goes on and on. All of them agreed to do X, Y, and Z and each found out they had agreed to do things they didn't know how to do, or could not do.Many companies agreed to sell to WalMart at less than their cost, and went broke trying to keep up with demand. WalMart is a huge market. They sell in 3 months what the next largest retailer (the second largest retailer, that is) in the world sells in a year.Walmart insists that prices must FALL, not rise, and that they must be competitive. Walmart's profit on some items is on the order of 1 to 5%, and those are not large items, either. They DO their part in passing on revenues to manufacturers. Nobody exists on slimmer margins than WalMart does. There's a trail of! dead or damaged companies in WalMart's wake, but it wasn't Walmart that did it to them. It was their own greed or incompetence, when they were offered a chance at the largest retailer's shelf space in the world, and took it in terms they could NOT sustain. There's a lesson for all of us in that, in that we really SHOULD know our capabilities and have a plan to deal with both growth and competition. Can we handle success? Can we keep our word, do we know our own selves well enough to make our plans and stick to them with discipline? Will we promise what we can't deliver, if it appears to promise us growth?Every company that sells products to WalMart knows exactly what they're expected to do when they start out. Many think they can get concessions, or have unrealistic expectations. I spent quite a bit of time reading about this... And I resolved at that moment, no matter what the future, I resolve to know what I'm doing, where I'm going, and what I and my company can and cann! ot do. I sort of turned over a new leaf after reading and digesting. It was a good way to start 2007. Inspired by WalMart, no less. Hate them if you want, but I don't and can't. They're a breath of fresh air in a world of fudging, loose focus and blind ambition. They have an absolute resolute goal they have never wavered on, and that has always been the customer. WE need that kind of discipline and focus, too, as companies and individuals. NEver forget what we're here for. The pickles... The famous pickles. Got to love it. You tie the pickles with thebankruptcy, when every industry analyst, all the business mags, Vlasic themselves,all agree, Walmart or the pickle deal was not a critical factor in their bankruptcy. Not sure about pickles, but I have heard the Rubbermaid story. Walmart, dropped Rubbermaid off at the door of bakruptcy. Popular story about the way they do business.All Walmart business practices do is give everyone an example of extreme agressiveness of those ! sharks out there.-- WISPA Wireless List: [EMAIL PROTECTED]/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, IncBroadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains541-969-8200 Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
Mark, While it is true that many suppliers created their own problems, both Walmart Home Depot do in fact beat up their suppliers. Extra fees. Delivery hassles. Invoicing issues. It is a catch-22: everyone wants to sell at Walmart to get at the eyeballs, but at what cost? Why do you think toy makers have tried to go around Walmart? If you want to take lessons from them: - learn from their lousy employee relations (turnover rates as high as 300%) - be impressed with their automation - match their execution - acquire its focus and strategy - have a similar corporate story Wal-Mart conquered common retailing and business issues through a relentless emphasis on cost-control and execution. “By focusing constantly on trying to become more operationally efficient, Wal-Mart sets itself apart from its competitors,” writes Bergdahl. “Wal-Mart isn’t successful because of its strategies so much as because of its lockstep tactical execution of those strategies.” [from Michael Bergdahl, author of /What I Learned From Sam Walton: How to Compete and Thrive in a Wal-Mart World]/ But remember that you are not selling a commodity like Walmart. There are many more lessons on Walmart here (http://www.rad-info.net/newsletters/walmart16.htm) and in numerous books, including Price Wars: A Strategy Guide to Winning the Battle for the Customer by Thomas J. Winninger How can anyone compete against Wal-Mart? As Bergdahl explains in an early chapter, price is not the answer. Because of Wal-Mart’s efficiencies and buying power, retailers can often buy products at Wal-Mart for less than they can get it from a distributor. The key to success involves finding a niche, and providing value-added service, based on intimate customer knowledge. Wal-Mart’s only Achilles heel is its inability to address specific customer requirements, although that weakness is masked by the “10-foot rule” and similar policies. Each associate is required to help, or at least smile at customers, if they are within a 10-foot radius. That's my 25 cents anyway. Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. marketingideaguy.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
My $0.02 slightly OT, but food for thought about price: In my last lifetime I worked as a mechanical engineer. One achievement I was particularly proud of was being the head engineer over a frangible bullet production line (frangible copper alloy bullets for firing ranges to prevent ricochet and lead/toxin problems). My bullet was by far the best frangible bullet out there; it's pattern at 20 yards (handgun) was less than half the size of anyone else's. I ran a tight ship, and we were the best. There was, however, an escalating patent race on the method of production. The company I worked for bought the process from a research firm; one of its employees quit working for them and filed his own patent. So we one-upped his patent; he one-upped our patent (patent's are nearly worthless by the way, but I digress...). There was no legal way to stop him from production. I was told that he then basically bought some equipment and began making the bullets out of his garage at a price we couldn't touch. The head of our North American Sales team angrily said that this guy ruined the market for all the frangible ammunition makers. So, this guy with a couple pieces of equipment in his garage put us, a multi million per year international company, out of production on this product line. We dropped the product because the profit margin was too slim. The other guy was willing to roll back his sleeves and put the wife and kids to work. And made it work. Jason Peter R. wrote: Mark, While it is true that many suppliers created their own problems, both Walmart Home Depot do in fact beat up their suppliers. Extra fees. Delivery hassles. Invoicing issues. It is a catch-22: everyone wants to sell at Walmart to get at the eyeballs, but at what cost? Why do you think toy makers have tried to go around Walmart? If you want to take lessons from them: - learn from their lousy employee relations (turnover rates as high as 300%) - be impressed with their automation - match their execution - acquire its focus and strategy - have a similar corporate story Wal-Mart conquered common retailing and business issues through a relentless emphasis on cost-control and execution. “By focusing constantly on trying to become more operationally efficient, Wal-Mart sets itself apart from its competitors,” writes Bergdahl. “Wal-Mart isn’t successful because of its strategies so much as because of its lockstep tactical execution of those strategies.” [from Michael Bergdahl, author of /What I Learned From Sam Walton: How to Compete and Thrive in a Wal-Mart World]/ But remember that you are not selling a commodity like Walmart. There are many more lessons on Walmart here (http://www.rad-info.net/newsletters/walmart16.htm) and in numerous books, including Price Wars: A Strategy Guide to Winning the Battle for the Customer by Thomas J. Winninger How can anyone compete against Wal-Mart? As Bergdahl explains in an early chapter, price is not the answer. Because of Wal-Mart’s efficiencies and buying power, retailers can often buy products at Wal-Mart for less than they can get it from a distributor. The key to success involves finding a niche, and providing value-added service, based on intimate customer knowledge. Wal-Mart’s only Achilles heel is its inability to address specific customer requirements, although that weakness is masked by the “10-foot rule” and similar policies. Each associate is required to help, or at least smile at customers, if they are within a 10-foot radius. That's my 25 cents anyway. Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. marketingideaguy.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
Selling internet SERVICE is different than selling a PRODUCT. Your costs are not in the hard costs of the product, leases, etc. it's in the monthly costs (bandwidth, servers, employees, credit card processing fees, etc.). So your "gross profit" is going to be much higher than Walmart or Target, because their biggest expense is Cost of Goods Sold. Walmart's Net Profit for 2005 was 3.6%, which translates to $10 billion in profit. Travis Microserv wispa wrote: On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:06:21 -0700, Travis Johnson wrote I just read the USA Today article from 2003. It says the namebrand items provide 15% profit while the private label items provide 30% profit. Those are HUGE margins for a company now doing a billion a day in sales. I don't know where those numbers come from, but I know that some of thier stuff sells for definitely less than those markups. Perhaps some sells for more and makes up the difference. ' I really don't see how you can call 15% huge. It's very small. Nobody I know of that's doing well in the retail business of commodity items is selling things at those margins. Remember, just because the markup is 15%, doesn't mean the actual profit is. Overall, Walmart isn't making huge percentage profits on the gross sales. I agree they have gotten where they are because they can operate on very low margins and are very efficient. This is the reason all the small mom and pop places have gone out of business... they can't figure out how to operate on less than 50% margins... or they don't want to. Well, for my $38 account, I know I have less than $10 fixed expenses, including all the leases, etc. The only thing not factored into that is equipment replacement costs, as I really don't know what that's going to be long-term. I really do expect to make a50 to 70% profit on sales in the future. And that's not going to make me rich in any sense of the word. Different market, different service, different universe. :) Travis Microserv wispa wrote: On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:27:22 -0800, George Rogato wrote Blake Bowers wrote: You know, the only real difference between WalMart and most other retailers, is that what the manufacturer agrees to do, WalMart holds them to. Rubbermaid, Vlasic Pickles, Bicycle makers, the list goes on and on. All of them agreed to do X, Y, and Z and each found out they had agreed to do things they didn't know how to do, or could not do.Many companies agreed to sell to WalMart at less than their cost, and went broke trying to keep up with demand. WalMart is a huge market. They sell in 3 months what the next largest retailer (the second largest retailer, that is) in the world sells in a year.Walmart insists that prices must FALL, not rise, and that they must be competitive. Walmart's profit on some items is on the order of 1 to 5%, and those are not large items, either. They DO their part in passing on revenues to manufacturers. Nobody exists on slimmer margins than WalMart does. There's a trail of ! dead or damaged companies in WalMart's wake, but it wasn't Walmart that did it to them. It was their own greed or incompetence, when they were offered a chance at the largest retailer's shelf space in the world, and took it in terms they could NOT sustain. There's a lesson for all of us in that, in that we really SHOULD know our capabilities and have a plan to deal with both growth and competition. Can we handle success? Can we keep our word, do we know our own selves well enough to make our plans and stick to them with discipline? Will we promise what we can't deliver, if it appears to promise us growth?Every company that sells products to WalMart knows exactly what they're expected to do when they start out. Many think they can get concessions, or have unrealistic expectations. I spent quite a bit of time reading about this... And I resolved at that moment, no matter what the future, I resolve to know what I'm doing, where I'm going, and what I and my company can and cann ! ot do. I sort of turned over a new leaf after reading and digesting. It was a good way to start 2007. Inspired by WalMart, no less. Hate them if you want, but I don't and can't. They're a breath of fresh air in a world of fudging, loose focus and blind ambition. They have an absolute resolute goal they have never wavered on, and that has always been the customer. WE need that kind of discipline and focus, too, as companies and individuals. NEver forget what we're here for. The pickles... The famous pickles. Got to love it. You tie the pickles with thebankruptcy, when every industry analyst, all the business mags, Vlasic themselves,all agree, Walmart or the pickle deal was not a critical factor in their bankruptcy. Not sure about pickles, but I have heard the "Rubbermaid" story. Walmart, dropped Rubbermaid off at the door of bakruptcy. Popular story about the way they do business.All Walmart business practices do is give everyone an example of
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
Mark, how would you like to be the employee at an American television tube manufacturer and then lose your job and watch the plant close. The manufacturer found that foreign companies were dumping their product on the American market so they filed suit. When push came to shove, Walmart filed against them, siding with the foreign market in what was clearly an ILLEGAL practice. Time ran out and the company had to close its doors. Business people love to look at the Walmart model in envy, but I doubt those same people would ever work for the company. I have no problem with businesses that are legal, ethical and moral, and Walmart has been proven to be lacking in all 3 areas. John Thomas -Original Message- From: wispa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 03:39 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:27:22 -0800, George Rogato wrote Blake Bowers wrote: You know, the only real difference between WalMart and most other retailers, is that what the manufacturer agrees to do, WalMart holds them to. Rubbermaid, Vlasic Pickles, Bicycle makers, the list goes on and on. All of them agreed to do X, Y, and Z and each found out they had agreed to do things they didn't know how to do, or could not do. Many companies agreed to sell to WalMart at less than their cost, and went broke trying to keep up with demand. WalMart is a huge market. They sell in 3 months what the next largest retailer (the second largest retailer, that is) in the world sells in a year. Walmart insists that prices must FALL, not rise, and that they must be competitive. Walmart's profit on some items is on the order of 1 to 5%, and those are not large items, either. They DO their part in passing on revenues to manufacturers. Nobody exists on slimmer margins than WalMart does. There's a trail of dead or damaged companies in WalMart's wake, but it wasn't Walmart that did it to them. It was their own greed or incompetence, when they were offered a chance at the largest retailer's shelf space in the world, and took it in terms they could NOT sustain. There's a lesson for all of us in that, in that we really SHOULD know our capabilities and have a plan to deal with both growth and competition. Can we handle success? Can we keep our word, do we know our own selves well enough to make our plans and stick to them with discipline? Will we promise what we can't deliver, if it appears to promise us growth? Every company that sells products to WalMart knows exactly what they're expected to do when they start out. Many think they can get concessions, or have unrealistic expectations. I spent quite a bit of time reading about this... And I resolved at that moment, no matter what the future, I resolve to know what I'm doing, where I'm going, and what I and my company can and cannot do. I sort of turned over a new leaf after reading and digesting. It was a good way to start 2007. Inspired by WalMart, no less. Hate them if you want, but I don't and can't. They're a breath of fresh air in a world of fudging, loose focus and blind ambition. They have an absolute resolute goal they have never wavered on, and that has always been the customer. WE need that kind of discipline and focus, too, as companies and individuals. NEver forget what we're here for. The pickles... The famous pickles. Got to love it. You tie the pickles with the bankruptcy, when every industry analyst, all the business mags, Vlasic themselves, all agree, Walmart or the pickle deal was not a critical factor in their bankruptcy. Not sure about pickles, but I have heard the Rubbermaid story. Walmart, dropped Rubbermaid off at the door of bakruptcy. Popular story about the way they do business. All Walmart business practices do is give everyone an example of extreme agressiveness of those sharks out there. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
One of my kids bought a game the other day. Wal-Mart had it at $x. A block away we found the same game, brand new for almost half the price of Wal-Mart. We so rarely shop there anymore. Used to drop $400 to $500 per trip with house stuff, clothes, groceries etc. We finally got fed up with the attitudes of the other shoppers and employees. Now we grocery shop (when we go out of Odessa to do it) at Safeway and spend the same money. We'll get clothes from a clothing store, pay around the same price but get twice the quality. Wal-Mart was great when we had no choices and didn't know any better. Now, just like my business, my household has grown up a lot! laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing Blake Bowers wrote: Actually, Walmart has made most of its money by providing the CONSUMER with what the CONSUMER wants. Walmart fills only what the consumer wants. That is how they make money, by meeting those consumer needs/desires. When a customer wants an apple for ten cents, you don't fulfill those needs by offering an orange for twenty cents! Actually, are they supplying what a consumer wants? Or simply offering low prices? Don't confuse the 2. Many people want cheaper - or the perception of cheaper. When you are selling commodities, it usually does come down to price. Yet Target sells many of the same items and has a much higher check out average per customer. Customer service, neatness, variety, and plain ole English are all things missing from Walmart, IMO. At what point does that model - of dropping prices - stop working? (I have noticed that Walmart is often not the cheapest.) And this model only works when you can capture market share. - Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
I read an article once about this. What happens when Walmart can't drop prices any lower? Who foots the bill when Walmart employees get sick and go to the Emergency room? John -Original Message- From: Peter R. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 03:46 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing Blake Bowers wrote: Actually, Walmart has made most of its money by providing the CONSUMER with what the CONSUMER wants. Walmart fills only what the consumer wants. That is how they make money, by meeting those consumer needs/desires. When a customer wants an apple for ten cents, you don't fulfill those needs by offering an orange for twenty cents! Actually, are they supplying what a consumer wants? Or simply offering low prices? Don't confuse the 2. Many people want cheaper - or the perception of cheaper. When you are selling commodities, it usually does come down to price. Yet Target sells many of the same items and has a much higher check out average per customer. Customer service, neatness, variety, and plain ole English are all things missing from Walmart, IMO. At what point does that model - of dropping prices - stop working? (I have noticed that Walmart is often not the cheapest.) And this model only works when you can capture market share. - Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
off topic -- Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
I see your point, Sam. Perhaps products like Linksys Routers could be a better example, or how about YouTube? for the argument, or even our residential customers (this oen rings a bell for many of us in this tech service industry, going all the way back to dialup days). I'm not sure about Walmart or MacDonalds not profiting at the expense of the customer (or others) argument: - McD's hamburgers aren't that healthy according to what health folks say, and common folks who eat there regularly prove. - Walmart's employee practices don't seem to be that just either, according to what analysts say. Mario Sam Tetherow wrote: There actually are some of us out here that don't have this luxury in our markets. My total market is approximately 3000 people (not households) and I have to go 45 miles in any direction to find another town with more than 80 people in it. I'm not saying this in a 'woe is me' tone, just stating a fact. Some of us operate in the well under 10,000 people areas where 'finding a higher ARPU customer' is not really a viable option. We have to be all things in order to have enough customers to pay the bills. The top 10% of my market would get me less than 100 customers and they would have an average income of less than $100K. As a slightly off-topic aside: (those that don't want to listen to my ramblings can safely stop here :) I do find the Walmart reference interesting. Since I have started this business I have tried to read as much as I can in terms of business, marketing and sales books. Having come from a purely tech background it astounds me how clueless I really was until I started a business. One of the things that I have struggled with is the price point vs service aspect of the business. Obviously being the cheapest option has it's sales advantages, especially in the residential best effort internet business. But as we all know, being the cheapest makes it a bit harder to pay the bills. When I read business and marketing books they all espouse the higher end customer is the better customer view. I understand this view, you have a valued customer who is willing to pay a reasonable price for quality service. You look at brands like Lexus and Bose and think, these are the people I need to be like. These companies have made millionaires. But what I find interesting is that companies like Walmart and McDonalds who do live in the quantity, not quality world have made billionaires. The trick seems to be, if you can somehow manages to be the cheapest and do it right you can make a boat load of money and it doesn't have to be at the expense of the customer. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Peter R. wrote: John J. Thomas wrote: But, the model will work if you bill by the bytes If Joe is paying $40 per month for 6 Gig and gets throttled at 6 Gig, then he has a disincentive for keeping going. If he is paying $40 for unlimited access, he has no reason to slow down. Charter cable is doing 10 meg down/1 meg up in some markets for like $99 per month, how can you compete with that? John Well, the reality is this: you can't compete with it. And why try? Why not move upstream to a larger ARPU customer? Cable ILEC can handle and deliver service to the masses cheaply - for now. But there is a segment of every population that needs more than the cheap dumb pipe attached to the cheap dumb support. That is the GAP. That is where the money is. That is where your market is. But it may mean selling beyond just a pipe. I've been preaching this for years - and clients that have listened - narrowed their focus; but the shotgun (marketing) away; have done well. See articles here: http://www.rad-info.net/newsletters/walmart16.htm And there:http://www.rad-info.net/newsletters/winninger.htm Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. (813) 963-5884 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
They have made billions by serving billions of customers. Walmart and McDonalds only work on scale -- huge scale. Lexus and Bose are not mass market. And neither are many of you on this list. In the DSL arena, the combined 300 ISPs selling in BellSouth territory in its hey-day never had more than 3% marketshare. Today, they have less than 1%. So you are not going to be Walmart. You CAN be Nordstroms. You can be Bose. Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. Sam Tetherow wrote: As a slightly off-topic aside: (those that don't want to listen to my ramblings can safely stop here :) You look at brands like Lexus and Bose and think, these are the people I need to be like. These companies have made millionaires. But what I find interesting is that companies like Walmart and McDonalds who do live in the quantity, not quality world have made billionaires. The trick seems to be, if you can somehow manages to be the cheapest and do it right you can make a boat load of money and it doesn't have to be at the expense of the customer. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
I understand that I don't have the market to be a Walmart, it was just a general observation (and hence tagged as off topic). Kind of like noting that Warren Buffet, who is considered one of the top investers in the nation, made his billions in the market but refuses to deal with tech stocks, but the one person in the US who is richer than him is Bill Gates who made his billions exclusively in the tech market. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Peter R. wrote: They have made billions by serving billions of customers. Walmart and McDonalds only work on scale -- huge scale. Lexus and Bose are not mass market. And neither are many of you on this list. In the DSL arena, the combined 300 ISPs selling in BellSouth territory in its hey-day never had more than 3% marketshare. Today, they have less than 1%. So you are not going to be Walmart. You CAN be Nordstroms. You can be Bose. Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. Sam Tetherow wrote: As a slightly off-topic aside: (those that don't want to listen to my ramblings can safely stop here :) You look at brands like Lexus and Bose and think, these are the people I need to be like. These companies have made millionaires. But what I find interesting is that companies like Walmart and McDonalds who do live in the quantity, not quality world have made billionaires. The trick seems to be, if you can somehow manages to be the cheapest and do it right you can make a boat load of money and it doesn't have to be at the expense of the customer. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
Sam Tetherow wrote: Some of us operate in the well under 10,000 people areas where 'finding a higher ARPU customer' is not really a viable option. We have to be all things in order to have enough customers to pay the bills. This is how my market is, the biggest customer would be the hospital and then the next would be the local real estate office. Other than City Hall. Actually the biggest buyer of phone services is me. Not a lot of cherries to pick and we take em green just to stay in business. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
John J. Thomas wrote: But, the model will work if you bill by the bytes If Joe is paying $40 per month for 6 Gig and gets throttled at 6 Gig, then he has a disincentive for keeping going. If he is paying $40 for unlimited access, he has no reason to slow down. Charter cable is doing 10 meg down/1 meg up in some markets for like $99 per month, how can you compete with that? John Well, the reality is this: you can't compete with it. And why try? Why not move upstream to a larger ARPU customer? Cable ILEC can handle and deliver service to the masses cheaply - for now. But there is a segment of every population that needs more than the cheap dumb pipe attached to the cheap dumb support. That is the GAP. That is where the money is. That is where your market is. But it may mean selling beyond just a pipe. I've been preaching this for years - and clients that have listened - narrowed their focus; but the shotgun (marketing) away; have done well. See articles here: http://www.rad-info.net/newsletters/walmart16.htm And there:http://www.rad-info.net/newsletters/winninger.htm Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. (813) 963-5884 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Service Offerings - Competing
There actually are some of us out here that don't have this luxury in our markets. My total market is approximately 3000 people (not households) and I have to go 45 miles in any direction to find another town with more than 80 people in it. I'm not saying this in a 'woe is me' tone, just stating a fact. Some of us operate in the well under 10,000 people areas where 'finding a higher ARPU customer' is not really a viable option. We have to be all things in order to have enough customers to pay the bills. The top 10% of my market would get me less than 100 customers and they would have an average income of less than $100K. As a slightly off-topic aside: (those that don't want to listen to my ramblings can safely stop here :) I do find the Walmart reference interesting. Since I have started this business I have tried to read as much as I can in terms of business, marketing and sales books. Having come from a purely tech background it astounds me how clueless I really was until I started a business. One of the things that I have struggled with is the price point vs service aspect of the business. Obviously being the cheapest option has it's sales advantages, especially in the residential best effort internet business. But as we all know, being the cheapest makes it a bit harder to pay the bills. When I read business and marketing books they all espouse the higher end customer is the better customer view. I understand this view, you have a valued customer who is willing to pay a reasonable price for quality service. You look at brands like Lexus and Bose and think, these are the people I need to be like. These companies have made millionaires. But what I find interesting is that companies like Walmart and McDonalds who do live in the quantity, not quality world have made billionaires. The trick seems to be, if you can somehow manages to be the cheapest and do it right you can make a boat load of money and it doesn't have to be at the expense of the customer. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Peter R. wrote: John J. Thomas wrote: But, the model will work if you bill by the bytes If Joe is paying $40 per month for 6 Gig and gets throttled at 6 Gig, then he has a disincentive for keeping going. If he is paying $40 for unlimited access, he has no reason to slow down. Charter cable is doing 10 meg down/1 meg up in some markets for like $99 per month, how can you compete with that? John Well, the reality is this: you can't compete with it. And why try? Why not move upstream to a larger ARPU customer? Cable ILEC can handle and deliver service to the masses cheaply - for now. But there is a segment of every population that needs more than the cheap dumb pipe attached to the cheap dumb support. That is the GAP. That is where the money is. That is where your market is. But it may mean selling beyond just a pipe. I've been preaching this for years - and clients that have listened - narrowed their focus; but the shotgun (marketing) away; have done well. See articles here: http://www.rad-info.net/newsletters/walmart16.htm And there:http://www.rad-info.net/newsletters/winninger.htm Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. (813) 963-5884 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
