Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
I think the general thinking is that WISP's shouldn't have to pay to make the Governments' job easier... John -Original Message- From: Sam Tetherow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 5, 2006 11:29 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue burden of responsibility on an ISP. Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out the information being requested for archive is merely websites visited and email address sent to. This information is trivial to gather and really not that burdensome to archive. I currently run about 4Mbps-5Mbps of traffic from 8am to midnight and a months worth of these logs uncompressed only takes up about 7G of space. Compression will save me 60% of that so it is more like 3G for a month of 4-5Mbps. This fits nicely on a single DVD-R for achiving once a month. Even scaling this up to 30X the traffic for a DVD/day gets you 120-150Mbps daily average traffic. Your total cost on something like this would be 1. a Mikrotik box (or any router that supports the netflow protocol) to sit right before your edge router (or as your edge router). 2. A PC to capture the data with a DVD+-R drive total cost $500. 3. And then a spindle of DVD media at ~ $15/100 DVDs. This puts the grand total in at well under $2000 one time cost and then whatever personnel cost you want to assign to burning a DVD once a month, or if you are lucky enough to have enough customers to require 120Mbps, once a day. I think it is important if we are going to draft something up to address this issue that we address it with facts. For most ISPs coming up with the money to achieve this while a PITA is not going to cause the business to go bankrupt. I achieved this using equipment I already have in place. My DS3 MT router sends the netflow data to the box I use for system/network monitoring. I currently do not archive this data to DVD because I have only been collecting it for a month, but I highly doubt I will unless required to by law. The only reason I collect this data is for IP accounting and troubleshooting and will probably keep no more than a month or two of the full data. But it sure comes in handy when a customer calls up and says that they haven't had internet for the past 2 weeks and I can pull up the charts that show they have. Or they say that things have been running real slow lately and I can look at the flow data and see that their kids have been using P2P applications or doing large FTP downloads. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Butch Evans wrote: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a couple examples. First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. ATT) will be completely useless. Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either one location, or purchase the equipment for each network. It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all. This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a political discussion. This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP (wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that the political implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue at hand is NOT political in nature. It IS financial and technical. We do
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Ummm... read the story carefully.
The FBI and AG Gonzalez DO want content recorded. People have
proposed regulation... that is very unclear and imprecise about what is actually
required.
The problem is that the people involved in writing
the laws are clueless about network operations and utterly unconcerned about
the Constitution.
North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061personal correspondence
to: mark at neofast dot netsales inquiries to: purchasing at
neofast dot netFast Internet, NO
WIRES!-
- Original Message -
From:
David Sovereen
To: WISPA General List
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent
about this?
Many of you seem to be of the belief that the
proposed bill requires you to keep records of the content of
subscribers. Simply put, that isNOT THE CASE. While I do not
know the specific details of the various proposals, I do know that none of
them are expecting ISPs to keep copies of content accessed.
The proposed bills arerequiring that ISPs
keep track of what subscriber used what IP address(es). One version of
the bill wants this data retained for one year; another version for two
years. For ISPs using RADIUS for accounting or making static IP
assignments, this is pretty easy to do. I
don't know what requirements, if any, are being proposed for subscribers
placed behind a NAT firewall shared by many subscribers.
I understand that WISPA is an organization still
in its infancy, and they don't currently have the resources to "lobby"
congress. But there IS an organization speaking to congress on your
bahalf on this issue: The United States Internet Industry
Association.
As a former member of the board of directors, I
can assure you that this is a small, but vocal organization, and they are
representing YOUR interests. Data retention requirements have been on
USIIA's radar for quite some time. On Feburary 17, 2005 (last year) the
board of directors adopted this policy as USIIA's official position on data
retention: http://www.usiia.org/legis/dataret.html
If you'd like tosupport an organization
that does speak to congress and is representing your interests, you might
consider giving USIIA your financial. For the record, their board
receives no compensation. The only paid employee is David McClure, their
full-time President and CEO (and "lobbyist", but he doesn't go by that
title).
Dave
- Original Message -
From:
Pete Davis
To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:34
PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent
about this?
If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would
be to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch
and streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the
Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to upload
it to them over their network resources to their server for them to to keep
on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't have any way to
insure that the data hasn't been tampered with if it stays in my file room.
The government requiring me to keep two years records of all network traffic
seems unreasonable. If I were a defense attorney defending a client whose
evidence against him was stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for
24 months, I would certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely
get it thrown out.Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If
I am an ISP operator (I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client
(I don't, or at least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of
keeping network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge
the records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like
reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the express
written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look like it came from
his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 months old, and sitting in
my tape locker could ever be held as compelling evidence against him, unless
there was already an investigation, where these records still probably
couldn't make or break a case.I suppose that the thinking is, that
if the subscriber is guilty of child porn, and they can prove what site he
downloaded from and sent it to, they could go after that web host for
hosting the smut. Either way, putting it off to the local ISP to keep
records seems far fetched. Pete DavisNoDial.netMac
Dearman wrote:
You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP SMTP traffic? I
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
- Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. WHAT??? Of course this is AT ISSUE. Or do you exempt yourself from being a citizen and having any concern about intrusion into your life??? That some of us happen to be part of the businesses in question is merely incidental. Our opinions as businessmen should reflect that issue as well. Or is that too redneck these days? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Hiya Carl, Most of the discussion here centers around US issues ONLY because there are more US isp's involved. Maybe you Kanooks are even worse about joining organizations than us Yanks? hehehehe We structured WISPA specifically so that it can grow anywhere in the world. And we can use info learned in one country and put it (and people) together to help folks anywhere. I know that there was a Canadian issue that you'd asked about once before. I may be able to carve out a little bit more time to help you with that in the next week or so if you'd like to try again. Feel free to post your issues here, that's part of what we're here for. Remember, this is your list too. If you don't use it it won't help you. Marlon(509) 982-2181 Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 (Vonage) Consulting services42846865 (icq) And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Carl A Jeptha To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? last time I thought Wispa was international and if it is not I may as well cancel my membership.It does appear that USA Politics and legislation has been on the forefront alot. Just asking??You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca office 905 349-2084 Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900 skype cajeptha David Sovereen wrote: I've only been on the list for about four weeks. I learned about it at the Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees. Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is doing on the legislative front. If all of the good stuff is hiding in the members only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there on your public web site, how are enticing people to join? If you want people's money, you need to market to them. I finally made it through the USIIA Bulletin. According to them, the data retention bill isn't likely to be passed. Quote, "The reality is that such legislation would never pass the Congress, and that the DOJ will likely back down from the issue in the face of public criticism and concerns." If that weren't the case, I'd probably get a USIIA Alert asking me to e-mail my congresspeople. I feel this type of information is valuable. Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? You just need to pay attention here and on the private list. It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more. So that everyone would know what we're going right now! But those of us working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it. grin Watch and learn Dave. One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never hid anything that it does. We are the most open group I've ever been around. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "David Sovereen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are? Where can I see the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members? The root of my questions is, "How do I know that the money I spend is making a difference?" I've joined organizations before. I send them my check or give them a credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want more money. I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact reason. What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money? After a year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership. Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David. What's a trade association do for you? (You being generic here) The idea
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to does the membership of wispa want to do this. Which is what I said in my first post on the subject. I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not? Yes indeed. BTW, I am not a WISP, and as such, elected to purchase only an associate membership. But I do, in fact, agree with this sentiment. I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to give a solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying member of wispa, yet. You did not see the private exchange between Mark and I. I suggested that if he does not want to bring this issue to the WISPA membership, that he contact his congressman and or Senator directly. Peter's post was right on the same idea, but was posted to the list. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
Well now I don't feel so alone in my opinions :) I still consider you a wisp, isn't that what brought us all here together? George Butch Evans wrote: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to does the membership of wispa want to do this. Which is what I said in my first post on the subject. I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not? Yes indeed. BTW, I am not a WISP, and as such, elected to purchase only an associate membership. But I do, in fact, agree with this sentiment. I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to give a solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying member of wispa, yet. You did not see the private exchange between Mark and I. I suggested that if he does not want to bring this issue to the WISPA membership, that he contact his congressman and or Senator directly. Peter's post was right on the same idea, but was posted to the list. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
I agree with your sentiments completely. One needs to ask, though, why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA? The answer is more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked why they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs more money than the benefits of membership are worth. My company is not a member of WISPA. And at this point, I don't see what benefit membership in WISPA would give me. I'm a believer in the strength of numbers and joining ranks for greater good. That's why I support NFIB and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community. Why should I send $250 to WISPA? Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line historically do not get involved in a trade association and work together for the common good. Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together either. Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of joining WISPA and trying to get anything done. This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has been created and nobody is taking advantage of it. It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that WISPA is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an organization wide open that just about anyone in the wisp business can join run for office get elected and take charge. Very disappointing, and this is what makes me scream when I hear posts like Roberts the other day accusing board members of getting paid with perks or Marks suggestion this morning that the board is on the inside with this stuff. You guys, the wisps that are out in the fields doing the wisp business should be trying harder to get the entire wisp community to join this organization and to get something accomplished. My poll for a working group for muni wireless had 2 respondents. Only 2 wisps are interested or think they need help with muni wireless? Hard to believe. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
- Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15. sigh Says who? Last I knew you were a paid member. And you've pulled no Glass style manuvers. You've not been kicked out of the asso. or anything. You don't agree with some of the WISPA official stands, and that's ok. This is the WISPA asso. not the Koskenmaki asso! Just like it's not the Schafer asso. I don't like everything that WISPA does or stands for. Heck, I don't always like everything *I* write on WISPA's behalf But it's a group effort, or at least supposed to be. I don't take it personally, though it's often frustrating as hell (USF and our totaly lack of any official response comes directly to mind). I don't share the same political goals, and as such, I'm not in any position to do squat. OK, I can accept that. But that's YOUR possition, not one of WISPA's or, I believe, most of the WISPA membership. After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being told to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around either place. But, since the stories DID appear in several public news outlets, I figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment. You were asked to let a dead horse die. That's not the same as shut up and go away. It's only shut up!!! Big Grin And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well. I don't see why. Unless you just can't stand not getting your way. hehehehehe Lighten up Mark. This is a team sport. It's football, not golf. You don't get to play every hole your way and you don't get to get mad when the coaches call a play you don't like. You still have a job to do for your industry. Do your best and no one here will ever hold that against you. laters, marlon See ya. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it. George Mark Koskenmaki wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
I know of that organization David. I think
WISPA would be happy to work with them on this issue.
Marlon(509)
982-2181
Equipment sales(408) 907-6910
(Vonage)
Consulting services42846865
(icq)
And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
- Original Message -
From:
David Sovereen
To: WISPA General List
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent
about this?
Many of you seem to be of the belief that the
proposed bill requires you to keep records of the content of
subscribers. Simply put, that isNOT THE CASE. While I do not
know the specific details of the various proposals, I do know that none of
them are expecting ISPs to keep copies of content accessed.
The proposed bills arerequiring that ISPs
keep track of what subscriber used what IP address(es). One version of
the bill wants this data retained for one year; another version for two
years. For ISPs using RADIUS for accounting or making static IP
assignments, this is pretty easy to do. I
don't know what requirements, if any, are being proposed for subscribers
placed behind a NAT firewall shared by many subscribers.
I understand that WISPA is an organization still
in its infancy, and they don't currently have the resources to "lobby"
congress. But there IS an organization speaking to congress on your
bahalf on this issue: The United States Internet Industry
Association.
As a former member of the board of directors, I
can assure you that this is a small, but vocal organization, and they are
representing YOUR interests. Data retention requirements have been on
USIIA's radar for quite some time. On Feburary 17, 2005 (last year) the
board of directors adopted this policy as USIIA's official position on data
retention: http://www.usiia.org/legis/dataret.html
If you'd like tosupport an organization
that does speak to congress and is representing your interests, you might
consider giving USIIA your financial. For the record, their board
receives no compensation. The only paid employee is David McClure, their
full-time President and CEO (and "lobbyist", but he doesn't go by that
title).
Dave
- Original Message -
From:
Pete Davis
To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:34
PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent
about this?
If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would
be to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch
and streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the
Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to upload
it to them over their network resources to their server for them to to keep
on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't have any way to
insure that the data hasn't been tampered with if it stays in my file room.
The government requiring me to keep two years records of all network traffic
seems unreasonable. If I were a defense attorney defending a client whose
evidence against him was stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for
24 months, I would certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely
get it thrown out.Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If
I am an ISP operator (I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client
(I don't, or at least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of
keeping network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge
the records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like
reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the express
written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look like it came from
his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 months old, and sitting in
my tape locker could ever be held as compelling evidence against him, unless
there was already an investigation, where these records still probably
couldn't make or break a case.I suppose that the thinking is, that
if the subscriber is guilty of child porn, and they can prove what site he
downloaded from and sent it to, they could go after that web host for
hosting the smut. Either way, putting it off to the local ISP to keep
records seems far fetched. Pete DavisNoDial.netMac
Dearman wrote:
You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will
never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two
years.
Mac Dearman
-
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Thank you Marlon. I can not recall any issues between Mark or anyone else in wispa and I can't imagine that a difference of opinion would put somebody on the outside. I would not want to see differences of opinions put anyone on the outside. This organization is made up of many different people with many different ideas and personally, I want to hear them all, because that is how we come to a consensus. I would hope that even if we disagree with each other at times, we still respect each other regardless. George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: - Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15. sigh Says who? Last I knew you were a paid member. And you've pulled no Glass style manuvers. You've not been kicked out of the asso. or anything. You don't agree with some of the WISPA official stands, and that's ok. This is the WISPA asso. not the Koskenmaki asso! Just like it's not the Schafer asso. I don't like everything that WISPA does or stands for. Heck, I don't always like everything *I* write on WISPA's behalf But it's a group effort, or at least supposed to be. I don't take it personally, though it's often frustrating as hell (USF and our totaly lack of any official response comes directly to mind). I don't share the same political goals, and as such, I'm not in any position to do squat. OK, I can accept that. But that's YOUR possition, not one of WISPA's or, I believe, most of the WISPA membership. After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being told to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around either place. But, since the stories DID appear in several public news outlets, I figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment. You were asked to let a dead horse die. That's not the same as shut up and go away. It's only shut up!!! Big Grin And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well. I don't see why. Unless you just can't stand not getting your way. hehehehehe Lighten up Mark. This is a team sport. It's football, not golf. You don't get to play every hole your way and you don't get to get mad when the coaches call a play you don't like. You still have a job to do for your industry. Do your best and no one here will ever hold that against you. laters, marlon See ya. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David. What's a trade association do for you? (You being generic here) The idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't understand what a trade group is for. It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket. Nor is it there to help you control your costs. Oh sure, most of those things can and will happen at some point. But it takes time, people and money to make any of that happen. At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry If you don't support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in congress. Especially the FCC. You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up. They made it clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many individuals. Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of opinion either! They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them wherever that's possible. No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do for them. You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA. Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should have. I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too. It's mostly a safety in numbers thing. We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people can't join. Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us. If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join the club. We're all frustrated about that. But just how many more hundreds (thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business and my family when others won't lift a finger? How does the saying go? United we stand, divided we fall. Are those who haven't joined uniters or dividers? That help? marlon Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I agree with your sentiments completely. One needs to ask, though, why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA? The answer is more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked why they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs more money than the benefits of membership are worth. My company is not a member of WISPA. And at this point, I don't see what benefit membership in WISPA would give me. I'm a believer in the strength of numbers and joining ranks for greater good. That's why I support NFIB and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community. Why should I send $250 to WISPA? Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line historically do not get involved in a trade association and work together for the common good. Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together either. Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of joining WISPA and trying to get anything done. This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has been created and nobody is taking advantage of it. It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that WISPA is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an organization wide open that just about anyone in the wisp business can join run for office get elected and take charge. Very disappointing, and this is what makes me scream when I hear posts like Roberts the other day accusing board members of getting paid with perks or Marks suggestion this morning that the board is on the inside with this stuff. You guys, the wisps that are out in the fields doing the wisp business should be trying harder to get the entire wisp community to join this organization and to get something accomplished. My poll for a working group for muni wireless had 2 respondents. Only 2 wisps are interested or think they need help with muni wireless? Hard to believe. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are? Where can I see the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members? The root of my questions is, How do I know that the money I spend is making a difference? I've joined organizations before. I send them my check or give them a credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want more money. I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact reason. What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money? After a year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership. Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David. What's a trade association do for you? (You being generic here) The idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't understand what a trade group is for. It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket. Nor is it there to help you control your costs. Oh sure, most of those things can and will happen at some point. But it takes time, people and money to make any of that happen. At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry If you don't support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in congress. Especially the FCC. You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up. They made it clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many individuals. Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of opinion either! They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them wherever that's possible. No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do for them. You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA. Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should have. I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too. It's mostly a safety in numbers thing. We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people can't join. Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us. If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join the club. We're all frustrated about that. But just how many more hundreds (thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business and my family when others won't lift a finger? How does the saying go? United we stand, divided we fall. Are those who haven't joined uniters or dividers? That help? marlon Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I agree with your sentiments completely. One needs to ask, though, why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA? The answer is more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked why they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs more money than the benefits of membership are worth. My company is not a member of WISPA. And at this point, I don't see what benefit membership in WISPA would give me. I'm a believer in the strength of numbers and joining ranks for greater good. That's why I support NFIB and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community. Why should I send $250 to WISPA? Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line historically do not get involved in a trade association and work together for the common good. Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together either. Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of joining WISPA and trying to get anything done. This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has been created and nobody is taking advantage of it. It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that WISPA is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an organization wide open that just about
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue burden of responsibility on an ISP. Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out the information being requested for archive is merely websites visited and email address sent to. This information is trivial to gather and really not that burdensome to archive. I currently run about 4Mbps-5Mbps of traffic from 8am to midnight and a months worth of these logs uncompressed only takes up about 7G of space. Compression will save me 60% of that so it is more like 3G for a month of 4-5Mbps. This fits nicely on a single DVD-R for achiving once a month. Even scaling this up to 30X the traffic for a DVD/day gets you 120-150Mbps daily average traffic. Your total cost on something like this would be 1. a Mikrotik box (or any router that supports the netflow protocol) to sit right before your edge router (or as your edge router). 2. A PC to capture the data with a DVD+-R drive total cost $500. 3. And then a spindle of DVD media at ~ $15/100 DVDs. This puts the grand total in at well under $2000 one time cost and then whatever personnel cost you want to assign to burning a DVD once a month, or if you are lucky enough to have enough customers to require 120Mbps, once a day. I think it is important if we are going to draft something up to address this issue that we address it with facts. For most ISPs coming up with the money to achieve this while a PITA is not going to cause the business to go bankrupt. I achieved this using equipment I already have in place. My DS3 MT router sends the netflow data to the box I use for system/network monitoring. I currently do not archive this data to DVD because I have only been collecting it for a month, but I highly doubt I will unless required to by law. The only reason I collect this data is for IP accounting and troubleshooting and will probably keep no more than a month or two of the full data. But it sure comes in handy when a customer calls up and says that they haven't had internet for the past 2 weeks and I can pull up the charts that show they have. Or they say that things have been running real slow lately and I can look at the flow data and see that their kids have been using P2P applications or doing large FTP downloads. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Butch Evans wrote: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a couple examples. First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. ATT) will be completely useless. Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either one location, or purchase the equipment for each network. It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all. This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a political discussion. This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP (wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that the political implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue at hand is NOT political in nature. It IS financial and technical. We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the burden of gathering this information. OK. If that is the case, wouldn't you agree that this is something that SHOULD be addressed by WISPA? I don't agree with much that Mark had to say (really, it was the implications he made that I disagreed with), but his point that there should
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
You just need to pay attention here and on the private list. It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more. So that everyone would know what we're going right now! But those of us working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it. grin Watch and learn Dave. One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never hid anything that it does. We are the most open group I've ever been around. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are? Where can I see the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members? The root of my questions is, How do I know that the money I spend is making a difference? I've joined organizations before. I send them my check or give them a credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want more money. I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact reason. What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money? After a year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership. Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David. What's a trade association do for you? (You being generic here) The idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't understand what a trade group is for. It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket. Nor is it there to help you control your costs. Oh sure, most of those things can and will happen at some point. But it takes time, people and money to make any of that happen. At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry If you don't support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in congress. Especially the FCC. You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up. They made it clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many individuals. Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of opinion either! They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them wherever that's possible. No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do for them. You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA. Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should have. I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too. It's mostly a safety in numbers thing. We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people can't join. Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us. If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join the club. We're all frustrated about that. But just how many more hundreds (thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business and my family when others won't lift a finger? How does the saying go? United we stand, divided we fall. Are those who haven't joined uniters or dividers? That help? marlon Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I agree with your sentiments completely. One needs to ask, though, why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA? The answer is more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked why they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs more money than the benefits of membership are worth. My company is not a member of WISPA. And at this point, I don't see what benefit membership in WISPA would give me. I'm a believer in the strength of numbers and joining ranks for greater good. That's why I support NFIB and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community. Why should I send $250 to WISPA? Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
I've only been on the list for about four weeks. I learned about it at the Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees. Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is doing on the legislative front. If all of the good stuff is hiding in the members only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there on your public web site, how are enticing people to join? If you want people's money, you need to market to them. I finally made it through the USIIA Bulletin. According to them, the data retention bill isn't likely to be passed. Quote, The reality is that such legislation would never pass the Congress, and that the DOJ will likely back down from the issue in the face of public criticism and concerns. If that weren't the case, I'd probably get a USIIA Alert asking me to e-mail my congresspeople. I feel this type of information is valuable. Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? You just need to pay attention here and on the private list. It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more. So that everyone would know what we're going right now! But those of us working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it. grin Watch and learn Dave. One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never hid anything that it does. We are the most open group I've ever been around. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are? Where can I see the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members? The root of my questions is, How do I know that the money I spend is making a difference? I've joined organizations before. I send them my check or give them a credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want more money. I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact reason. What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money? After a year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership. Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David. What's a trade association do for you? (You being generic here) The idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't understand what a trade group is for. It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket. Nor is it there to help you control your costs. Oh sure, most of those things can and will happen at some point. But it takes time, people and money to make any of that happen. At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry If you don't support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in congress. Especially the FCC. You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up. They made it clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many individuals. Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of opinion either! They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them wherever that's possible. No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do for them. You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA. Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should have. I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too. It's mostly a safety in numbers thing. We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people can't join. Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us. If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join the club. We're all frustrated about that. But just how many more hundreds (thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business and my family when others won't lift a finger? How does the saying go? United we
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
- Original Message - From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I've only been on the list for about four weeks. I learned about it at the Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees. Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is doing on the legislative front. If all of the good stuff is hiding in the members only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there on your public web site, how are enticing people to join? If you want people's money, you need to market to them. If you've been here for 4 weeks and haven't seen any talk about the l-mds (???) 900mhz spectrum grab, USF fund reform, or TV Whitespaces issues you've not been paying close enough attention! We'd love to have someone put our a news letter for us. Are you volunteering? Lord knows the FCC group here is rarely stationary! marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
last time I thought Wispa was international and if it is not I may as well cancel my membership. It does appear that USA Politics and legislation has been on the forefront alot. Just asking?? You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca office 905 349-2084 Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900 skype cajeptha David Sovereen wrote: I've only been on the list for about four weeks. I learned about it at the Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees. Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is doing on the legislative front. If all of the good stuff is hiding in the members only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there on your public web site, how are enticing people to join? If you want people's money, you need to market to them. I finally made it through the USIIA Bulletin. According to them, the data retention bill isn't likely to be passed. Quote, "The reality is that such legislation would never pass the Congress, and that the DOJ will likely back down from the issue in the face of public criticism and concerns." If that weren't the case, I'd probably get a USIIA Alert asking me to e-mail my congresspeople. I feel this type of information is valuable. Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? You just need to pay attention here and on the private list. It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more. So that everyone would know what we're going right now! But those of us working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it. grin Watch and learn Dave. One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never hid anything that it does. We are the most open group I've ever been around. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "David Sovereen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are? Where can I see the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members? The root of my questions is, "How do I know that the money I spend is making a difference?" I've joined organizations before. I send them my check or give them a credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want more money. I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact reason. What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money? After a year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership. Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David. What's a trade association do for you? (You being generic here) The idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't understand what a trade group is for. It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket. Nor is it there to help you control your costs. Oh sure, most of those things can and will happen at some point. But it takes time, people and money to make any of that happen. At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry If you don't support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in congress. Especially the FCC. You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up. They made it clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many individuals.
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
There are still things that can be learned for our Canadian members. Perhaps some of the Canadian members can form a committee to watch regulatory, legislative, and politics in Canada. There are parallels between the US Canada and they should be taken advantage of. - Peter Carl A Jeptha wrote: last time I thought Wispa was international and if it is not I may as well cancel my membership. It does appear that USA Politics and legislation has been on the forefront alot. Just asking?? You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca office 905 349-2084 Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900 skype cajeptha -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it. George Mark Koskenmaki wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Personally, I'm counting on it, so I can get the company to buy me that multi-terabyte NAS I've always wanted. I'm running out of disk space at home to store all my pr0n. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log your HTTP SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two years. Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15. I don't share the same political goals, and as such, I'm not in any position to do squat. After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being told to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around either place. But, since the stories DID appear in several public news outlets, I figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment. And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well. See ya. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it. George Mark Koskenmaki wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
- Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:39 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log your HTTP SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two years. How many customers ya got, Mac? Mine use around 3-4 gigs a month of traffic. I dunno what you're thinking, but they wanted us to log the CONTENT of all that traffic, meaning...we're going to dupe all the traffic on our network, time-stamped and tagged as to who did what, for 2 years - searchable by site, IP, destination, or possibly by content, as well. When it hits scores or hundreds of Terabytes to log it for 2 years... Plus the ability to backhaul ALL of your traffic to a data storage site... Or a bunch of data storage sites, when we have wide-spread and unconnected networks... It means that WISP's will get hammered like you've never seen. Heck, just the traffic from my database machine to the gateway for 45 customers logged in excess of 2 gigs / mo and all it did was collect statistics on the amount of traffic per customer. Given, that's a worst-case scenario... but we're not exactly batting good at all lately. And should we get a D administration or majority control, we're going to find that this would be a best case, not worst case. Their intrusion plans are WAY worse. Frankly, I'm disgusted. A lot of people who I thought were sensible people have rushed headlong with welcoming arms to the regulators, all in HOPES of catching a few dollars falling from the table. Let's just say I'm not cynical. I'm livid, and have been for quite some time now. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
I doubt that my upstream provider has any records of my customer IP assignments, so it is my belief that any records keeping and logging would fall on me. I'm not big but I do NOT consider my operation as being run by piss ants either. Do you consider the majority of WISP's to be run by piss ants and not worthy of any recognition and responsibility? I sincerely hope not because I have no desire to be associated with such a group. Lonnie On 6/4/06, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Mark I didn't realize you were persona non grata with wispa. It's the first that I have heard this. I do think that you do have a radical political belief and I think that the wireless lists are generally not interested in discussing politics because it is so divisive. But, if you or any other member of wispa want to create a topic specific work group that's goal is to better our industry, you step forward off list to me with your idea and I will present it to the board for approval of a separate email list. But keep in mind, we do not want another ISP-Chat with all that went with it. This association is not created for the reds to lob mickeys at the blues and visa versa or to impose their political beliefs on others. It has to be a wisp centric discussion with a goal of impacting change and benefit to our member wisps and the industry in general. sincerely George Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15. I don't share the same political goals, and as such, I'm not in any position to do squat. After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being told to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around either place. But, since the stories DID appear in several public news outlets, I figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment. And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well. See ya. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it. George Mark Koskenmaki wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
I was assuming the same thing. I thought that European isps were already required to do this. George Mac Dearman wrote: I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Just try and imagine how much storage you would require for 2 years worth of traffic. Guys are joking about it being good so they can get the Terabyte server they always wanted. How about when they have to buy 50 of them? Also consider the task of assigning IP addresses and maintaining that list to always be up to date and correct. If this requirement is made I do expect you will see an awful lot of guys stop doing this since the paperwork and records keeping would be an added chore and a possible huge expense. If you elect to ignore it if it is ever required expect to be asked to do jail time and pay huge fines. Make light of this all you want, but I believe that your smugness will not last long if it becomes a requirement. Lonnie On 6/4/06, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log your HTTP SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two years. Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Mark I didn't realize you were persona non grata with wispa. It's the first that I have heard this. I do think that you do have a radical political belief and I think that the wireless lists are generally not interested in discussing politics because it is so divisive. If radical is defined as get the government out of my business, where it has no business sticking its nose, then I suppose I'm radical. In which case, I'm proudly radical. As you have seen, I really do not come to any of the lists besides the now gone isp-chat to just harp politics, but instead to discuss how politics business do intersect. I don't think a single member of WISPA, including the board, falls completely outside of the entrepreneur lable, and as such, our first priority should be to retain the freedom to BE one. And secondly, as Americans, I don't think it is even political - well, not partisan, at least - that we should defend our privacy, and push back against the excesses of political types in power. That's just a given, one of those it will never change types of things. I was livid when someone I thought shared these views had taken upon themselves to encourage the federal government TO stick its nose into and regulate my business. And it seems almost nobody is arguing back. Did anyone notice that the ACLU hasn't peeped a negative word against requiring the logging of all internet use by individuals? We're on our own, as individuals, as citizens, as entrepreneurs, it seems.Now, WISPA should not get into partisan lobbying or take partisan sides, or make partisan arguments. But it does seem to me that offically, we should have a statement that says that WISPA, an association of ISP's, believes that proposal X is wrong, is excessively intrusive, and so on and so forth. And, whatever WISPA does say should be consistent from issue to issue. Even a short discussion about the impacts of such mandates would be helpful. What about security of those logs? What is our liability for keeping them, what is our liability if someone manages to get into them and steals something valuable?These issues are the HEART of what an ISP association is for... IMO. Does WISPA have money to lobby Congress? Nope. But just a short note to the membership, naming the appropriate people to contact, could be really helpful for those of us who regularly communicate with our customers. Yeah, I'd like to notify them what the feds want me to do - and whose phone lines to burn up telling them to get lost. Let's just say I won't go quietly. People gave lives to secure liberties for me. We should not dismiss them so easily. But, if you or any other member of wispa want to create a topic specific work group that's goal is to better our industry, you step forward off list to me with your idea and I will present it to the board for approval of a separate email list. But keep in mind, we do not want another ISP-Chat with all that went with it. This association is not created for the reds to lob mickeys at the blues and visa versa or to impose their political beliefs on others. It has to be a wisp centric discussion with a goal of impacting change and benefit to our member wisps and the industry in general. sincerely George Appreciated, George... maybe someone who can will be interested in doing so. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15. I don't share the same political goals, and as such, I'm not in any position to do squat. After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being told to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around either place. But, since the stories DID appear in several public news outlets, I figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment. And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well. See ya. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it. George Mark Koskenmaki wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would be to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch and streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to upload it to them over their network resources to their server for them to to keep on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't have any way to insure that the data hasn't been tampered with if it stays in my file room. The government requiring me to keep two years records of all network traffic seems unreasonable. If I were a defense attorney defending a client whose evidence against him was stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for 24 months, I would certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely get it thrown out. Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If I am an ISP operator (I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client (I don't, or at least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of keeping network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge the records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the express written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look like it came from his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 months old, and sitting in my tape locker could ever be held as compelling evidence against him, unless there was already an investigation, where these records still probably couldn't make or break a case. I suppose that the thinking is, that if the subscriber is guilty of child porn, and they can prove what site he downloaded from and sent it to, they could go after that web host for hosting the smut. Either way, putting it off to the local ISP to keep records seems far fetched. Pete Davis NoDial.net Mac Dearman wrote: You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log your HTTP SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two years. Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: "Mac Dearman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Lonnie, When I used the term piss ant it was referring to the working guys of this business. We all know how the ants work :-) doggedly for a small portion of the whole. Once again, I think its ridiculous to even think that the Feds would allow us - or put on us - - the responsibility of keeping those records. I really will go one step further than that and say that it is not possible! Look at it this way: Why would you sop the water off the ground with a sponge and then wring the sponge out in the bucket when you could catch it in the bucket at the spigot before it runs out all over the Country? I know my fiber connection is tied in directly to Shreveport, Louisiana - - - and so is every other facility in N. Louisiana that has fiber including all the DSL where its dumped into the fiber at the Telco CO's. I don't really have an awful lot of faith in our Government, but even a simple mind like mine can see that we aren't ever going to be faced with that responsibility. There are a bunch of renegades (like me) out here who already are at odds with the Government and do you think they are going to trust me (and others like me) to gather, maintain and retain that type data when they have folks (just one or two hops upstream from all of us) who can be held responsible and own the spigot we pull from? I just can't see how/why anyone would wait till the end of the pipe where it goes out to 50,000 distribution points when they (once again) can catch it all at one facility. It seems like a no brainer to me. ME SMUG? HA! That makes me smile :-) Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Just try and imagine how much storage you would require for 2 years worth of traffic. Guys are joking about it being good so they can get the Terabyte server they always wanted. How about when they have to buy 50 of them? Also consider the task of assigning IP addresses and maintaining that list to always be up to date and correct. If this requirement is made I do expect you will see an awful lot of guys stop doing this since the paperwork and records keeping would be an added chore and a possible huge expense. If you elect to ignore it if it is ever required expect to be asked to do jail time and pay huge fines. Make light of this all you want, but I believe that your smugness will not last long if it becomes a requirement. Lonnie On 6/4/06, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log your HTTP SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two years. Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
It may seem like a 'no brainer' to you, but since when did an idea being brain-dead-stupid stop the government from trying or actually enforcing it? There is one common thread that runs through all things government does when it is seeking to help the common folk - a complete and total lack of common sense. Does Mr Gonzales or the FBI care a whit about, or even KNOW anything about what it would take to do what they ask? No, of course not. It's just your typical beaurocrat, creating 50 problems while attempting to make minor progress on a different one. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:02 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Lonnie, When I used the term piss ant it was referring to the working guys of this business. We all know how the ants work :-) doggedly for a small portion of the whole. Once again, I think its ridiculous to even think that the Feds would allow us - or put on us - - the responsibility of keeping those records. I really will go one step further than that and say that it is not possible! Look at it this way: Why would you sop the water off the ground with a sponge and then wring the sponge out in the bucket when you could catch it in the bucket at the spigot before it runs out all over the Country? I know my fiber connection is tied in directly to Shreveport, Louisiana - - - and so is every other facility in N. Louisiana that has fiber including all the DSL where its dumped into the fiber at the Telco CO's. I don't really have an awful lot of faith in our Government, but even a simple mind like mine can see that we aren't ever going to be faced with that responsibility. There are a bunch of renegades (like me) out here who already are at odds with the Government and do you think they are going to trust me (and others like me) to gather, maintain and retain that type data when they have folks (just one or two hops upstream from all of us) who can be held responsible and own the spigot we pull from? I just can't see how/why anyone would wait till the end of the pipe where it goes out to 50,000 distribution points when they (once again) can catch it all at one facility. It seems like a no brainer to me. ME SMUG? HA! That makes me smile :-) Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Just try and imagine how much storage you would require for 2 years worth of traffic. Guys are joking about it being good so they can get the Terabyte server they always wanted. How about when they have to buy 50 of them? Also consider the task of assigning IP addresses and maintaining that list to always be up to date and correct. If this requirement is made I do expect you will see an awful lot of guys stop doing this since the paperwork and records keeping would be an added chore and a possible huge expense. If you elect to ignore it if it is ever required expect to be asked to do jail time and pay huge fines. Make light of this all you want, but I believe that your smugness will not last long if it becomes a requirement. Lonnie On 6/4/06, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log your HTTP SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two years. Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! -- -- - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
It may seem like a 'no brainer' to you, but since when did an idea being brain-dead-stupid stop the government from trying or actually enforcing it? There is one common thread that runs through all things government does when it is seeking to help the common folk - a complete and total lack of common sense. Does Mr Gonzales or the FBI care a whit about, or even KNOW anything about what it would take to do what they ask? No, of course not. I doubt quite seriously that any heads of executive branch departments realize that broadband/internet services are sometimes/often? provided by companies with a staff of less than ten and gross revenues less than $1MM annually. Most Washington beaurocratics live in a box and believe the line of bull that the Bell's and the Cable-Ops feed them. That is to say that the likes of Ma-Bell or Comcast created the internet and there aren't very many of the rouge ISPs around anymore. They might as well just treat the industry like there are 10 players: Comcast, Time Warner, Verizon, ATT, Bell South, Qwest, Sprint, MSN, Earthlink, and AOL. The rest of us are a bunch of renegades providing internet using tin-cans and string or pringles-cans and duct-tape. Thats why government thinks nothing of mandating logging/snooping/data retention for ISPs. They just don't recognize that the internet was formed by small mom-n-pop ISPs and that a fairly sizable chunk of internet access is still handled by the little guys. - Larry -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
The problem here Mac is that for the bells to be able to provide the information to the FBI they are going to have to be able to tie that IP address to an individual (your customer) so in the best case scenario you will have to keep track of what IP is mapped to which customer for any given time frame (I know this is an issue for some). In the worst case scenario you are the Bells will do it for you. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Mac Dearman wrote: Lonnie, When I used the term piss ant it was referring to the working guys of this business. We all know how the ants work :-) doggedly for a small portion of the whole. Once again, I think its ridiculous to even think that the Feds would allow us - or put on us - - the responsibility of keeping those records. I really will go one step further than that and say that it is not possible! Look at it this way: Why would you sop the water off the ground with a sponge and then wring the sponge out in the bucket when you could catch it in the bucket at the spigot before it runs out all over the Country? I know my fiber connection is tied in directly to Shreveport, Louisiana - - - and so is every other facility in N. Louisiana that has fiber including all the DSL where its dumped into the fiber at the Telco CO's. I don't really have an awful lot of faith in our Government, but even a simple mind like mine can see that we aren't ever going to be faced with that responsibility. There are a bunch of renegades (like me) out here who already are at odds with the Government and do you think they are going to trust me (and others like me) to gather, maintain and retain that type data when they have folks (just one or two hops upstream from all of us) who can be held responsible and own the spigot we pull from? I just can't see how/why anyone would wait till the end of the pipe where it goes out to 50,000 distribution points when they (once again) can catch it all at one facility. It seems like a no brainer to me. ME SMUG? HA! That makes me smile :-) Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Just try and imagine how much storage you would require for 2 years worth of traffic. Guys are joking about it being good so they can get the Terabyte server they always wanted. How about when they have to buy 50 of them? Also consider the task of assigning IP addresses and maintaining that list to always be up to date and correct. If this requirement is made I do expect you will see an awful lot of guys stop doing this since the paperwork and records keeping would be an added chore and a possible huge expense. If you elect to ignore it if it is ever required expect to be asked to do jail time and pay huge fines. Make light of this all you want, but I believe that your smugness will not last long if it becomes a requirement. Lonnie On 6/4/06, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log your HTTP SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two years. Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Pete is right, there is no way that historical information will pass evidence requirements which makes it pointless once the first case is tried. I'll go further though and say that it won't pass it's first constitutional challenge. It would be one thing to say we have to keep records of what sites a user hits. I already do this to some degree by storing my netflow files. This is similar to the phone company keeping track of who you call. However, keeping a copy of the content of those net transactions would be analogous to the phone company recording all conversations and keeping them on file for 2 years so that the FBI can listen to them at a later date. IANAL but I don't think that it is possible for a recorded conversation to be allowed in court unless atleast one of the participants knows they are being recorded at the time of the recording UNLESS there is an active court order at the time of the conversation allowing a third party to do so. If you take it even one step further storing the contents for 2 years of all traffic that crosses over my network would violate intellectual and copyright laws galore. If someone downloads a pirated dvd I now have a copy of it stored for two years. If some downloads a legal copy of a pay per view sports cast, I now have an archived copy of it for 2 years. If I host a company's email and there are trade secrets exchanged I now have a copy of that information stored for two years. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Pete Davis wrote: If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would be to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch and streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to upload it to them over their network resources to their server for them to to keep on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't have any way to insure that the data hasn't been tampered with if it stays in my file room. The government requiring me to keep two years records of all network traffic seems unreasonable. If I were a defense attorney defending a client whose evidence against him was stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for 24 months, I would certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely get it thrown out. Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If I am an ISP operator (I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client (I don't, or at least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of keeping network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge the records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the express written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look like it came from his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 months old, and sitting in my tape locker could ever be held as compelling evidence against him, unless there was already an investigation, where these records still probably couldn't make or break a case. I suppose that the thinking is, that if the subscriber is guilty of child porn, and they can prove what site he downloaded from and sent it to, they could go after that web host for hosting the smut. Either way, putting it off to the local ISP to keep records seems far fetched. Pete Davis NoDial.net Mac Dearman wrote: You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log your HTTP SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two years. Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will not fall on us
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Why aren't YOU doing something about it? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big Hmmm, it seems to me that there aren't many people who are members complaining about this being the case. I know YOU have argued some points to death, but that's not the rest of the members. Are you even a member? brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? This is just dumb enough to not even require any response. AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? Why not ask the membership what they want? I agree with you that this issue is a big one. It is not an impossible thing to accomplish, but it is certainly a big issue. I'd suggest that you (I'm no longer an ISP, so why should I worry about it), as a member (you ARE a member, right?), step up to the plate and head up a workgroup to come up with an official response and plan of action to fight this issue. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. Common sense tells ME that if it were going to affect ME, to the point of bankrupcy, the I would be doing something about it. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15. Perhaps it's your winning personality? I don't know...maybe it's something else. I don't share the same political goals, and as such, I'm not in any position to do squat. You don't have a Senator? A Congressman? Or is it that you just want someone else to do all the work? After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being told to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around either place. But, since the stories DID appear in several public news outlets, I figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment. This discussion has happened on this list already. Thanks for bringing it up again. And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well. Why do you figure that? If you ran the list, would you boot someone who posted what you posted? -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: I'm not big but I do NOT consider my operation as being run by piss ants either. Do you consider the majority of WISP's to be run by piss ants and not worthy of any recognition and responsibility? I sincerely hope not because I have no desire to be associated with such a group. I think you are mis-reading Mac's post. Maybe not, but I did not read that into it. I think he is simply saying that this issue is not intended for the last mile providers as much as it is for the major backbone providers. I tend to disagree with that assessment, but that's another post. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line historically do not get involved in a trade association and work together for the common good. Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together either. Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of joining WISPA and trying to get anything done. This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has been created and nobody is taking advantage of it. It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that WISPA is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an organization wide open that just about anyone in the wisp business can join run for office get elected and take charge. Very disappointing, and this is what makes me scream when I hear posts like Roberts the other day accusing board members of getting paid with perks or Marks suggestion this morning that the board is on the inside with this stuff. You guys, the wisps that are out in the fields doing the wisp business should be trying harder to get the entire wisp community to join this organization and to get something accomplished. My poll for a working group for muni wireless had 2 respondents. Only 2 wisps are interested or think they need help with muni wireless? Hard to believe. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Thank you very much. As for work groups, YES Butch, even YOU a NON wisp can join in a work group and contribute. I will say once again, If ANYONE in our industry can come up with a work group, wisp centric that will help our industry and our wisps, we would WELCOME you to do so and create an enviorment for you guys to flourish. I would probably faint if someone actually did this. George Butch Evans wrote: On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Why aren't YOU doing something about it? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big Hmmm, it seems to me that there aren't many people who are members complaining about this being the case. I know YOU have argued some points to death, but that's not the rest of the members. Are you even a member? brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? This is just dumb enough to not even require any response. AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this? Why not ask the membership what they want? I agree with you that this issue is a big one. It is not an impossible thing to accomplish, but it is certainly a big issue. I'd suggest that you (I'm no longer an ISP, so why should I worry about it), as a member (you ARE a member, right?), step up to the plate and head up a workgroup to come up with an official response and plan of action to fight this issue. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Did anyone READ the link? They are NOT asking us to archive content, but IP addresses of sites browsed to, e-mail sent to and so on. Not content. If Congress is going to be asked to pass legislation ordering Internet providers to retain data they won't be asked for content of that data but rather addresses e-mails were sent and sites they visited, Roehrkasse said. Not that I think it is right How long do YOU keep logs and such? -- Blair Davis West Michigan Wireless ISP -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
If it would be a huge burden to small businesses, then the SBA can file under the Small Business Burden Act (forget what it is actually called). The federal gov't cannot create regulations that would be a hardship for SMB owners. BTW, imagine having 2M BB users and how much space that would take Also, doesn't the NSA have all this info from tapping the ATT network? - Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Actually, the ACLU declined to meet with the AG FBI saying basically You have got to be kidding. Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Did anyone notice that the ACLU hasn't peeped a negative word against requiring the logging of all internet use by individuals? We're on our own, as individuals, as citizens, as entrepreneurs, it seems. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
All of this is pedantic. It seems consensus is this is a crazy idea. Everyone agrees. Problems: Hardship. Too much info. No chain of evidence. Unsecure. No space or time. Unreasonable. Who do we send the letter to? I'll help a board member or Mark K. compose one. Regards, Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? - small ISPs built
Not only true in DC, but to the general public as well, Larry. Larry Yunker wrote: I doubt quite seriously that any heads of executive branch departments realize that broadband/internet services are sometimes/often? provided by companies with a staff of less than ten and gross revenues less than $1MM annually. Most Washington beaurocratics live in a box and believe the line of bull that the Bell's and the Cable-Ops feed them. That is to say that the likes of Ma-Bell or Comcast created the internet and there aren't very many of the rouge ISPs around anymore. They might as well just treat the industry like there are 10 players: Comcast, Time Warner, Verizon, ATT, Bell South, Qwest, Sprint, MSN, Earthlink, and AOL. The rest of us are a bunch of renegades providing internet using tin-cans and string or pringles-cans and duct-tape. Thats why government thinks nothing of mandating logging/snooping/data retention for ISPs. They just don't recognize that the internet was formed by small mom-n-pop ISPs and that a fairly sizable chunk of internet access is still handled by the little guys. - Larry -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? - ACTION
I don't think anyone believes you will go Quietly :) However, when you make that noise, are you aiming it at your Congress Critter? Or just into the ether that is a listserv? In the time it took to write and read the 30 or so posts on the subject, you could have written a press release or letter that shared your views and the list (or Board) could have had a start on a template for everyone to use to send to their Congress Critter? (I have posted such a letter to the list). One of the things that makes an association work is when someone not only makes a suggestion but acts on it. - Peter RAD-INFO, Inc. Your NSP Strategist (813) 963-5884 Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Let's just say I won't go quietly. People gave lives to secure liberties for me. We should not dismiss them so easily. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Peter, I'd tend to agree with you... but think about this: How many lawsuits have been filed against people for music swapping, purely on the basis of ISP logs? If I HAD any logs of customer activity ( I do not ) I would disclaim them immediately - by responding that I have no conflidence in the accuracy, content, time or date of any entry in the logs, and further, I cannot verify that traffic to/from a specific IP has not been intercepted, either. Now, should the authorities come to me with a specific request to help track down someone violating the law, I will help any way I can. But the pre-emptive demands that we collect the data and hold it goes beyond beyond. You have made excellent points concerning the validity of anything we collect... But again, just because it's not possible, not technically feasible, unconstitutional, illegal, or any other point, doesn't mean a thing. Unless someone has the money to fight all the way to the SCOTUS (lower courts seem to be willing to uphold anything, no matter how grossly wrong ), it's either comply or go out of business. And no, the FBI and Congress, and the FCC won't give us 10 second's consideration if the last one is the result. They simply do not care. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? All of this is pedantic. It seems consensus is this is a crazy idea. Everyone agrees. Problems: Hardship. Too much info. No chain of evidence. Unsecure. No space or time. Unreasonable. Who do we send the letter to? I'll help a board member or Mark K. compose one. Regards, Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
I could be wrong but as I have followed this thread there are 2 issues at hand. 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the burden of gathering this information. I wanted to bring this out so that we all understand what this thread is about, what it started out as and what responsibility WISPA or any other ISP org has concerning this issue. One is a social issue the other an industry wide issue. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Then it is a boondoggle. All of the web traffic will be to some off-shore proxy. The same with email. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Blair Davis wrote: Did anyone READ the link? They are NOT asking us to archive content, but IP addresses of sites browsed to, e-mail sent to and so on. Not content. If Congress is going to be asked to pass legislation ordering Internet providers to retain data they won't be asked for content of that data but rather addresses e-mails were sent and sites they visited, Roehrkasse said. Not that I think it is right How long do YOU keep logs and such? -- Blair Davis West Michigan Wireless ISP -- Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
While I agree with your breakdown and the general statement that #1 should be decided on by the country as a whole. I think it is up to us as an industry that understands the implications of what is being asked for to make a statement about #1 even if it is just a clarification of the implications of this law. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless George Rogato wrote: I could be wrong but as I have followed this thread there are 2 issues at hand. 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the burden of gathering this information. I wanted to bring this out so that we all understand what this thread is about, what it started out as and what responsibility WISPA or any other ISP org has concerning this issue. One is a social issue the other an industry wide issue. -- Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
Many of you seem to be of the belief that the proposed bill requires you to keep records of the content of subscribers. Simply put, that isNOT THE CASE. While I do not know the specific details of the various proposals, I do know that none of them are expecting ISPs to keep copies of content accessed. The proposed bills arerequiring that ISPs keep track of what subscriber used what IP address(es). One version of the bill wants this data retained for one year; another version for two years. For ISPs using RADIUS for accounting or making static IP assignments, this is pretty easy to do. I don't know what requirements, if any, are being proposed for subscribers placed behind a NAT firewall shared by many subscribers. I understand that WISPA is an organization still in its infancy, and they don't currently have the resources to "lobby" congress. But there IS an organization speaking to congress on your bahalf on this issue: The United States Internet Industry Association. As a former member of the board of directors, I can assure you that this is a small, but vocal organization, and they are representing YOUR interests. Data retention requirements have been on USIIA's radar for quite some time. On Feburary 17, 2005 (last year) the board of directors adopted this policy as USIIA's official position on data retention: http://www.usiia.org/legis/dataret.html If you'd like tosupport an organization that does speak to congress and is representing your interests, you might consider giving USIIA your financial. For the record, their board receives no compensation. The only paid employee is David McClure, their full-time President and CEO (and "lobbyist", but he doesn't go by that title). Dave - Original Message - From: Pete Davis To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would be to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch and streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to upload it to them over their network resources to their server for them to to keep on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't have any way to insure that the data hasn't been tampered with if it stays in my file room. The government requiring me to keep two years records of all network traffic seems unreasonable. If I were a defense attorney defending a client whose evidence against him was stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for 24 months, I would certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely get it thrown out.Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If I am an ISP operator (I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client (I don't, or at least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of keeping network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge the records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the express written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look like it came from his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 months old, and sitting in my tape locker could ever be held as compelling evidence against him, unless there was already an investigation, where these records still probably couldn't make or break a case.I suppose that the thinking is, that if the subscriber is guilty of child porn, and they can prove what site he downloaded from and sent it to, they could go after that web host for hosting the smut. Either way, putting it off to the local ISP to keep records seems far fetched. Pete DavisNoDial.netMac Dearman wrote: You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log your HTTP SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two years. Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: "Mac
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why aren't YOU doing something about it? What DO you want me to do? What do _I_ want you to do? Do what you seem to expect others to do on your behalf, which you seem to think they are not/will not do! I was sold on the notion that we should all respond, but that we should respond carefully, wisely, and in agreement. That, I was sold on when I signed up and handed over my money, and that was what I thought I was supporting. Mark, It seems that you got what you paid for. WISPA attempts to be your voice. WISPA will not always say what you personally want it to say. That is just a simple fact. This is a GROUP, and the majority will rule. It is a sad fact, that many times, the majority is, in reality, a MINORITY that is willing to be vocal. Well, I'd assume you're either a provider or a customer of one these days... I am not longer an ISP. I am a customer of 2 small ISPs. Not that it really impacts on this discussion. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a couple examples. First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. ATT) will be completely useless. Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either one location, or purchase the equipment for each network. It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all. This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a political discussion. This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP (wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that the political implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue at hand is NOT political in nature. It IS financial and technical. We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the burden of gathering this information. OK. If that is the case, wouldn't you agree that this is something that SHOULD be addressed by WISPA? I don't agree with much that Mark had to say (really, it was the implications he made that I disagreed with), but his point that there should be SOME action on the part of WISPA is one that I do agree with. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
Butch, Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to does the membership of wispa want to do this. I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not? It's not that I disagree with any of this, and I'm sure the other paying members of wispa and the rest of the board are interested in making a statement and will most likely act. But Mark did not bring this up to the membership. Just the open list. Mark is a member and he should have brought this up to the membership and just tossed eggs at wispa from outside of wispa. And I think his original post was at midnight last night chastising the so called insiders of wispa, accusing the insiders of being in with the feds for their personal gain even though he is a paying member of wispa and could have easily brought this up at some point in a more dignified manner without accusing the insiders of having some sort of conspiracy and dereliction of duty. here is his original post: Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators? So what was his real message? I'd like him to explain to the membership what certain others are. I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to give a solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying member of wispa, yet. He does though contribute to the wispa promo committee and is very much interested in working with wisps and wispa in as an industry representative. Which I congratulate him on being right there for us when wisps who are in the industry won't even contribute anything. Actually there was a 2nd and that was Pete Davis who made a darn good suggestion that would deflect costs away from the ISP and back towards the feds. Now if we could just get more people to join in and help with some of the stuff wispa could be doing, we might be able to get more done and stay on top of things. Right now there are about 500 list dwellers here and only a small percentage are paid members. The paid members are MUCH appreciated, because even if they don't have the time to contribute, they at least contributed money to help pay the bills and keep wispa alive. The rest of the list dwellers, who I will assume are in the industry or related to the industry also need to consider that the math is easy. here it is The MORE people who join in and contribute either with a little money or even actions and a little time will mean the MORE wispa can get done. The LESS people who contribute, the LESS that gets done. Remember, everyone has day jobs and businesses that takes up most of their time, so it's not like we have full time anybodies. Sincerely George Butch Evans wrote: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP? THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a couple examples. First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. ATT) will be completely useless. Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either one location, or purchase the equipment for each network. It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all. This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this. George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a political
